Is it okay to have an Abortion?

[Word]

So is it okay to have an Abortion?

[Tamara224]

No, it is not 'okay' to have an abortion. What response are you really looking for on a Christian message board?!

[jfreakgirl]

Is it ok to murder?!?!

[dill987]

No it is not ok to have an abortion because it is like killing ur baby before it even sees the world.It is sin and it is murder.

[Word]

SO WOULD YOU ALL AGREE THAT:

There was no practice of abortion in Bible times. Therefore, the Bible never specifically addresses the issue. However, there are numerous teachings in Scripture that make it abundantly clear what Elohim’s view of abortion is. Jeremiah 1:5 tells us that Elohim knows us before He knits us in the womb. Psalm 139:13-16 speaks of Elohim’s active role in our creation and formation in the womb. Exodus 21:22-25 prescribes the same penalty of someone who causes the death of a baby in the womb as the penalty for someone who commits murder. This clearly indicates that Elohim considers a baby in the womb as just as much of a human being as a full-grown adult. For the Christian, abortion is not a matter of a woman’s right to choose. It is a matter of the life or death of a human being made in Elohim’s image (Genesis 1:26-27; 9:6).

The first argument that always arises against the Christian stance on abortion is, “What about cases of rape and/or incest?” As horrible as it would be to become pregnant as a result of rape and/or incest, does that make the murder of a baby the answer? Two wrongs do not make a right. The child who is a result of rape/incest could be given up for adoption to a loving family unable to have children on their own – or the child could be raised by its mother. Again, the baby should not be punished for the evil acts of its father.

The second argument that usually arises against the Christian stance on abortion is, “What about when the life of the mother is at risk?” Honestly, this is the most difficult question to answer on the issue of abortion. First, let’s remember that this situation is the reason behind less than one-tenth of one percent of the abortions done in the world today. Second, let’s remember that Elohim is a Elohim of miracles. He can preserve the life of a mother and a child despite all the medical odds being against it. Ultimately, though, this question can only be decided between a husband, wife, and Elohim. Any couple facing this extremely difficult situation should pray to the Yahweh for wisdom (James 1:5) as to what He would have them to do.

For those who have had an abortion – the sin of abortion is no less forgivable than any other sin. Through faith in Massiah, any and all sins can be forgiven (John 3:16; Romans 8:1; Colossians 1:14).

[SemperReformanda]

On the other thread i gave my thoughts on when it might be necessary to abort a life.

[blueheron32]

Concerning the question of rape or incest...I say...execute the rapist, and let the baby live...

blueheron32

[SemperReformanda]

Thats a tough one for me blue. Something i've been struggling with in my own mind. Not the letting the baby live part, i agree with that whole heartedly. But our role as believers, recognizign that I am just as depraved as the rapist but mercy was shown to me. Where do you draw the line between being the ungrateful servant who doesnt forgive where he was forgiven, and showingthe world that unbalanced scales are an abomination and justice is good. The line is pretty fuzzy in my mind.. any insite woudl be very appreciated, perhap on a different thread? so we dont change the subject.

[blueheron32]

Semper..

My statement was an extreme, to make a point. In our system, a person rapes someone, and a pregnancy results...(possibly).. So in such an event, we execute the baby. How by any bizarre reasoning is that "justice". How much more just, to execute the rapist, wouldnt you say??

In answer to your other question. Whether it is rape, or murder, or bank robbery, or whatever it is, mercy, does not cancel justice. You are correct, I am no better than the rapist, or murderer. The fact is I am probably worse. And yes mercy has been shown to me, should I not in turn show mercy to those who sin against me? And the answer is yes, I must. So does the fact that I show mercy, and forgive, cancel justice..?

The answer is, no. God has ordained government,

Rom 13:1 Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.
Rom 13:2 Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation.
Rom 13:3 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same:
Rom 13:4 For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.
Rom 13:5 Wherefore ye must needs be subject, not only for wrath, but also for conscience sake.
Rom 13:6 For for this cause pay ye tribute also: for they are God's ministers, attending continually upon this very thing.
Rom 13:7 Render therefore to all their dues: tribute to whom tribute is due; custom to whom custom; fear to whom fear; honour to whom honour.

And as imperfect as government is at times, he is still, "the minister of God to thee for good". and he beareth not the sword in vain. And.."for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil." You see semper, God has placed Government in a position to serve him, to execute justice. We do not take justice into our own hands, but God still requires it, and has provided a means by which it is carried out, in this world. He will execute judgment in the end. Maybe to tie up the loose ends that government missed..:-) Some may escape the justice of temporal governments, but none will escape the justice of God.

blueheron32

[Daytimeson23]

absolutely, if the rape causes a child to die the man should also die, if the baby stays alive the man who raped the woman should have his genitals cut off as the punishment must fit the crime, this is totally biblical.

[SemperReformanda]

I agree. However in a Republic its the people (us) who are governing. (by the people for the people..all that jazz) Public opinion is the determining factor as to what punishment fits which crime.
So it is up to us to demonstrate both mercy and justice. When someone sins against me, whether its theft, rape, murder etc. do i show mercy or do i in advance set up a system where i cannot do so but the crime must be paid for by the individual?

Thats a much different situation then an authoritarian state, or a monarchy, or especially a theocracy. In those instances you show mercy as the law allows and where it doesnt allow you praise justice. But if we are infact making the laws ... ?

[SemperReformanda]

Makes it kinda difficult to witness to an individual when you say your so depraved you need your genitals cut off, and we will never allow mercy to be shown for THIS sin. then turn around say.. Im just as depraved as you and deserve nothing less than hell, but my sin was paid for so Im gonna skip out on the consequences.

[blueheron32]

semper....

God ordained government as his temporal arm of justice...Government under whatever form it takes is accountable to God to submit to his law...Now you may say, How can government... be held accoutable by God being it is not a person..... and I probably dont have an answer for you.... but here are a couple parallel thoughts...

God also ordained the church, and in doing so he gave pretty specific guidelines on how the church was to be structured, the qualifications of leaders etc.... churches have followed those instructions more or less faithfully, but just as with israel God said he would bless them if they were faithful, and would judge them if they werent...

In the same way, as God ordained government... he also gave instructions concerning its responsibilities to those it governs, and some instruction concerning its role in the matter of justice.... now we are a republic,,,( I could debate that...:-) but "we the people" have no right to establish laws that reject that which God has set as a standard of justice...what ever that may be... to do so is to reject God as God, and will certainly result in his judgment against the nation that presumes to do so..After all it is God who raises kingdoms up and God who puts them down...

Your other objection that it puts us in an awkward position when we require that justice be done to a rapist, and at the same time have a responsiblility to share the gospel with him...I think is without merit... It is God who does the saving... what you are saying is that I cannot discipline my child, and at the same time, have my child know that I love him...

Joh 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

Whether it is a rapist or a murderer, or an aborted child semper....Not one that the father gives to the Son, will be lost....Gods salvation plan will not fail, He is faithful..

blueheron32

[SemperReformanda]

Im not saying GOd will not still save His people even though the instruments he uses to bring them to knowledge of Truth are flawed. Please dont think I am saying that.

[lovin_god]

NO because god has a plan 4 every single life and they have a life ahead of them
lovin_god

[Word]

I agree. However in a Republic its the people (us) who are governing. (by the people for the people..all that jazz) Public opinion is the determining factor as to what punishment fits which crime.
So it is up to us to demonstrate both mercy and justice. When someone sins against me, whether its theft, rape, murder etc. do i show mercy or do i in advance set up a system where i cannot do so but the crime must be paid for by the individual?

Thats a much different situation then an authoritarian state, or a monarchy, or especially a theocracy. In those instances you show mercy as the law allows and where it doesnt allow you praise justice. But if we are infact making the laws ... ?


So you are saying that man's ways should take precedence over God's ways?

[Bikn4God]

I guess we ought to fire all the prison Chaplains too, right?

CJ
SFFS

[OneJoe]

I guess we ought to fire all the prison Chaplains too, right?

CJ
SFFS
What does that have to do with executing the rapist?

[failed_prince]

if u abort the child from a rape but that would be the only reason, not from foolish unprotected sex.

[Rylee]

So, just because a woman is raped (which is unfortunate, but not the child's fault), she should kill her child? If you wanna talk about fairness, let's talk about fairness... who is murder fair toward?

[OneJoe]

if u abort the child from a rape but that would be the only reason, not from foolish unprotected sex.
You say its okay to abort in the event of rape, but can you justify killing the child? Will God's word rightfully allow such a judgment without a consequence? While you believe it is okay to kill a child in the case of rape, that is one child that my wife and I would have gladly taken and tried to raise under the word of God. Each time a child is killed, their is another Christian family out their who may not be able to have a child on their own. I understand what your saying. Rape is a horrible, tremattic thing, but should the child have to die because of the wickedness of someone else. Where is the mercy, the compassion in that?

[vballchick]

NO NO NO NO! its totally not ok to have an abortion. Its killing one of Gods creations and its also killing a human.

[Word]

Concerning the question of rape or incest...I say...execute the rapist, and let the baby live...

blueheron32

Not a bad idea but I still prefer life without parole.:)

[dill987]

Doing an abortion is like planing a murder for someone you don't know.Think about it you never talked to the baby or seen it and yet your going to kill the baby.You think by making it disappear it's less brutal but it's like stabbing it with a knife or shooting it.I would learly say that it's 100 percent a sin and I find it disgusing to kill someone that doesn't even have the chance with life.

[Soul_of_faith]

Well I was on the fence of No and sometimes. I chose No but in some cases I don't know how I would choose. The youngest person ever documented as carrying a child was 5 years old. She carried it and gave birth to it. She could of died would I have asked my daughter to do so? I can't honestly say I would have. A good site to teach teens and others what honestly happens in an abortion and I'm not sure if it still exists but It was called Abortion tv.com. It shows all the horrible facts of abortion with pictures. It's horrible to read on but I can't imagine anyone wanting to do such a thing after seeing and reading that.

[Soul_of_faith]

Just checked the site does still exist. Any time I hear of a teen who is thinking of aborting I let the parents know of this site and advise them to see it with her. The site says for adults and over 12. Things on there they don't even teaach in school for fear of controversy. A very good teaching tool in my opinion. But so hard to sit through. just broke my heart when I did.

[Therese]

So is it okay to have an Abortion?

I think that there are times such as the life of the woman being in question, rape, serious things, times like that, I think the answer has to be between the woman, her husband and God. Abortion on demand I think is atrocious.

[Rylee]

So, because a woman is raped, it's okay for her to murder her baby? It's not the woman's fault that she was raped, but it's not the baby's fault, either. Since when do two wrongs make a right?

About the woman's life being in danger: I can give you more info if you wish, but the truth is, this is a rare occurance. In most cases, abortion will not, as commonly thought, save a woman's life. Very, very rare...

[Therese]

So, because a woman is raped, it's okay for her to murder her baby? It's not the woman's fault that she was raped, but it's not the baby's fault, either. Since when do two wrongs make a right?

About the woman's life being in danger: I can give you more info if you wish, but the truth is, this is a rare occurance. In most cases, abortion will not, as commonly thought, save a woman's life. Very, very rare...

I think that if a woman is raped that the trauma of the rape might make her an unfit mother and I think she would have to have the choice of carrying to term in trauma from a rape a baby to give up. It just seems to me like a time when a person has to make a choice and should not be held at gunpoint for her decision.

And yes, I know those are rare occurences and I do detest abortion on demand, the wanton killing of babies because simply that women do not want them. There is the crux.

[Rylee]

She should have the choice of MURDERING her baby just because she doesn't want to carry it? Nine months for her, a lifetime for the baby. It is unfortunate if a woman is raped, but that still gives her no right to take a human life.

[RoMan838]

Even murderers can be redeemed. If God's law is not the law of the land, at least we can encourage any woman at all times to keep the life within her. Let us also not forget to love the woman in her despair - whether or not she keeps the child.

[Rylee]

I never said that murderers can't be redeemed.
I never said that we shouldn't love the woman regardless of her decision.

What I said was, that murder is wrong. This is a commandment. I don't know how else to make it anymore clear. Just because she can be redeemed doesn't mean that she should do it anyway...

[RoMan838]

I agree.

Romans 6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? 2 Certainly not! How shall we who died to sin live any longer in it?

[Therese]

She should have the choice of MURDERING her baby just because she doesn't want to carry it? Nine months for her, a lifetime for the baby. It is unfortunate if a woman is raped, but that still gives her no right to take a human life.

Yes she should have the choice. God gave us choices. That is not to say that she would be doing a good thing. Just to say she has the choice. And if you want to scream murder in a case like that, fine. It certainly is taking a life and I don't think I would want to do it but I have not walked in those kind of shoes so I cannot answer a hypothetical question.

[Rylee]

As long as we agree that she would be committing murder, and that she would be wrong in making that choice, and that we shouldn't condone that choice, I'm satisfied.

[Therese]

As long as we agree that she would be committing murder, and that she would be wrong in making that choice, and that we shouldn't condone that choice, I'm satisfied.

Yes, she would be taking the life of the child. For her, she would be doing the right thing for herself. It is not for us to judge her. We can say it is wrong to take a life but we have not the right to tell her, say she is wrong. We can believe that she is wrong, but it is for God to say, not us.

[Rylee]

For her, she would be doing the right thing for herself. It is not for us to judge her.

Not necessarily... statistically, MOST (over 50% of) women regret their abortion, and it is physically and mentally damaging, and it can even increase the risk of some cancers. Knowing these facts, we can't say that she is doing the right thing for herself. She is taking desperate measures in a situation in which she feels she has no way out. This doesn't mean that it's the 'right thing' for her.


We can say it is wrong to take a life but we have not the right to tell her, say she is wrong. We can believe that she is wrong, but it is for God to say, not us.

It's not for us to judge, I will give you that. However, we are to witness to sinners, and I find myself well within my right to tell a woman who is planning on getting an abortion, or even a woman who has already gotten one, that she is in the wrong according to the scriptures.

How come you are so quick to be able to say that she has the right to murder a baby, but I don't have the right to tell her that she's wrong?

[Therese]

Not necessarily... statistically, MOST (over 50% of) women regret their abortion, and it is physically and mentally damaging, and it can even increase the risk of some cancers. Knowing these facts, we can't say that she is doing the right thing for herself. She is taking desperate measures in a situation in which she feels she has no way out. This doesn't mean that it's the 'right thing' for her.




It's not for us to judge, I will give you that. However, we are to witness to sinners, and I find myself well within my right to tell a woman who is planning on getting an abortion, or even a woman who has already gotten one, that she is in the wrong according to the scriptures.

How come you are so quick to be able to say that she has the right to murder a baby, but I don't have the right to tell her that she's wrong?

I quit. I didn't say she has the right to murder her baby. Murder is a word for psycopaths who go about go about stalking and hurting and murdering people. Murder is not a word to use in this case. It is cold and unfeeling.

[Sara †]

what about a "tubal pregnacy?" In this case, IF you do not abort the baby (which will never be born to begin with), the mother and baby BOTH will die. No way around it. What do you all say then?

[Rylee]

This is an easy one: if the baby is going to die anyway, then you're not really killing the baby. I mean, in a literal sense I suppose one can make an argument that you are, but it's like taking someone who's braindead with no chance of regaining consciousness off of life support. Since there's no hope for the baby anyway, then it would be logical to take the proper precautions to preserve the life of the mother.

[Therese]

I never said that murderers can't be redeemed.
I never said that we shouldn't love the woman regardless of her decision.

What I said was, that murder is wrong. This is a commandment. I don't know how else to make it anymore clear. Just because she can be redeemed doesn't mean that she should do it anyway...

People don't have an abortion because the know they can be redeemed. They do it because they see it as the only to survive. And as far as being redeemed, most women who have abortions for reasons of health end up living the rest of their life with the guilt anyway.

You said you would approach them and tell them they were doing the wrong thing. I don't think I would want to do that since they will do it anyway. Now if they asked my opinion, I would gladly give it.

[Rylee]

People don't have an abortion because the know they can be redeemed. They do it because they see it as the only to survive. And as far as being redeemed, most women who have abortions for reasons of health end up living the rest of their life with the guilt anyway.
What I said was in reply to RoMan... if you look up above the post where you found that I said this, you will find RoMan's post. :-)

You said you would approach them and tell them they were doing the wrong thing. I don't think I would want to do that since they will do it anyway.
Not necessarily. Look at it this way: If we decide not to talk to people about Jesus because we figure that they won't listen, then we're not being a good witness. Well, that's how I feel about this. We shouldn't just not talk to them because we feel that they won't listen. There might be a woman who is on the fence about getting an abortion, even if she seems confident in her decision. She may be persuaded after hearing the facts to change her mind.

[Therese]

What I said was in reply to RoMan... if you look up above the post where you found that I said this, you will find RoMan's post. :-)


Not necessarily. Look at it this way: If we decide not to talk to people about Jesus because we figure that they won't listen, then we're not being a good witness. Well, that's how I feel about this. We shouldn't just not talk to them because we feel that they won't listen. There might be a woman who is on the fence about getting an abortion, even if she seems confident in her decision. She may be persuaded after hearing the facts to change her mind.

You are more brave than I am or you have had better experiences with witnessing than I have. Perhaps because I come from a small town, everybody knows everybody. I know who will listen and who won't and I know who will beat me into the ground and I have gained nothing. I do my best to live a good life and be an example. Each person has some gift God has given them and each is different. If we were all witnessess there would be no one to witness to. Not a criticism, just a thought.

[truebeliever]

I believe that abortion should be a state's right issue. It should be up to the indvidual states to decide how they will handle this matter.

[truebeliever]

That last post should have read 'state's rightS' not 'state's right'.

[RoMan838]

Therese, you responded to Rylee with:
You are more brave than I am or you have had better experiences with witnessing than I have.

I agree that it is not an easy thing to counsel or witness. We need to be wise in our witness, for we are told both to go boldly to the ends of the earth and to be shrewd about our witness.

Matthew 7:6
“Do not give what is holy to the dogs; nor cast your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn and tear you in pieces.

Acts 1:8
But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes on you; and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the ends of the earth."

I pray that each of us will respond with obedience to the guidance of the Holy Spirit.

[Rylee]

Why should some states allow abortions and others not? If anybody truly wants an abortion, they will just travel to a state that permits them, like it is now with gay marriage (although I've heard that they have something now where you have to be a resident of the state... but even if that's the case, anybody who wants it badly enough will just move there).

Why should some states be allowed to kill children and not others?

[truebeliever]

Rylee,

It should be the right of each individual state to determine how they want to handle the abortion issue. It's that simple. As it stands now, some states will never get rid of it.

Also, instead of focusing on the issue of abortion itself, how about we focus on personal responsibility. Better personal responsibility in this arena would go a loooooooooooong way to reducing the # of abortions performed every year in this country.

I believe this is a freedom of choice issue from both a government and individual standpoint. Just because the gov has made it legal does not mean one has to partake in an abortion and that's where the key element of this whole issue kicks in...personal responsibility. People do have a choice in most cases, Rylee.

Hope that answers your ?

[Rylee]

However, why should there even be a choice? Why don't we just let everybody have the choice to murder whomever they choose without having any punishment? It would be the same thing, but at least the victim would have had te opportunity to have seen the light of day.

The baby didn't get a choice... so why should the mother?

[truebeliever]

First off, let me state for the record that as of this posting, I'm the only 'Other' vote on the board on this issue..so let's get some more 'Other' voters and make this a race with the 'No' voters.

Rylee,

You can kill someone if you want to. There may be repercussions for it somewhere down the road, but since God gave man free will, you can do it. It doesn't make it right and again this whole argument goes back to one thing...

PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY!!!!

What you're doing is what many people do in an argument such as this. You're confusing rights with free will.

You can do whatever you want under the sun. But personal responsibility usually keeps people from committing a heinous act like murder or aborting a fetus.

Get my drift...

[Rylee]

I understand what you're saying. I know that it's their choice, but we as Christians should be trying to take that choice away, not to take away their rights, or to inhibit their 'free will', but rather, in order to save the unborn. However, why would you want to keep it legal just to give people the choice to do it? Why not just take away the choice and save the unborn? The pro-choicers fight so hard for women to have the choice, yet they're forgetting that the babies don't have a choice, or even, a CHANCE at having a choice someday because they won't even get a chance at life. The unborn: they don't have a voice, meaning they don't have a choice. They need people to speak for them.

That's my only reason for even being pro-life. I don't understand why this country keeps it legal for mothers to murder their children.

[Word]

I understand what you're saying. I know that it's their choice, but we as Christians should be trying to take that choice away, not to take away their rights, or to inhibit their 'free will', but rather, in order to save the unborn. However, why would you want to keep it legal just to give people the choice to do it? Why not just take away the choice and save the unborn? The pro-choicers fight so hard for women to have the choice, yet they're forgetting that the babies don't have a choice, or even, a CHANCE at having a choice someday because they won't even get a chance at life. The unborn: they don't have a voice, meaning they don't have a choice. They need people to speak for them.

That's my only reason for even being pro-life. I don't understand why this country keeps it legal for mothers to murder their children.


This is so true thank you for replying with this Rylee.:)

[Redeemed777]

I got a plain and simple way of putting it,
Christains in this country need to preying for this country because not only their is aboution(and may i state impotant things were happening when their was mass murdeing of children)(moses's birth)(jesus's birth)there is also same sex marrige pornography everywhere and its sadder that all it seems most christains are locked into their church saying coom by yaa and not fight this storm. Christians in school aret speaking up in schools and if they would schools would be different, not only that is christains are constantly argueing with other christains(including me alot of times) when we should be encourageing and building love and forming unity.

[Rylee]

Amen Redeemed... I agree. ;) Thanks for your post.

[SirLaffalot aka CarltonRoss]

Abortion is WRONG and prohibited in Scripture-- the only exception I see is to save the life of the mother in a medical emergency.

Abortion on demand, as a form of birth control is not only prohibited in Scripture, but those responsible for the death of an unborn baby are condemned to death.

[truebeliever]

I haven't read all the posts in here, but one thing I have noticed in the posts that I've read is that there seems to be ZERO emphasis on personal responsibility!!!

Abortion may indeed be a bad law of the land, but it's a choice in almost all cases when someone decides to have an abortion. So the bottom line is...even though it's legal, you don't have to have one!!!

[lilian]

i totally disagree with abortion! its mursder man! a living baby...i dont care if its developed or not....no its not ok!

[Word]

No, it is not 'okay' to have an abortion. What response are you really looking for on a Christian message board?!


I totally agree with you here Tamara224.:)

[Rylee]

Tamara, I agree with you --- but look at the responses. Although people have overwhelmingly chosen "No", in all actuality, 1 out of 5 have not. And if you looked down the thread, they have explained their reasoning. Sad, isn't it?

[Tamara224]

Unfortunately, Tamara, I agree with you --- but look at the responses. Although people have overwhelmingly chosen "No", in all actuality, 1 out of 5 have not. And if you looked down the thread, they have explained their reasoning. Sad, isn't it?

Yeah, Rylee, I just don't understand it, to tell you the truth. I fully expected that at least 99.9% of the people on a Christian board would see it the same way. I guess I shouldn't assume anything. It is very sad.:-(

[Word]

Is it ok to murder?!?!
The right question.:)

[db14]

I am not sure if this has been mentioned, but would you say abortion is ok in the case of rape?

I would say no. I was having a conversation with someone about this and they said, yes it is because it isn't the womans fault.
I responded, no it isn't, but it isn't the babys fault either.

[Samual]

You guys is full of should and should be. the world should be lotssa things.
Its one part to have all high ideas. But life dont go on high ideas. I got a cousin who died tryin to do that to herself cuz she was scared. I dont reckon it should be ok for whats right. But life dont go on whats right, I learned that simple enough. I recon id rather had shelly go to the doctor, she dont have religon, so she thinks its ok. Least she would have a time to repent herself. I recon lots of scared girls will go that way if its illegal.

God says its bad, I know that

[KLA3384]

Several years ago I saw a bumper sticker that said "abortion stops a beating heart". I think that says it all. Abortion is MURDER.

[germanJoy]

So is it okay to have an Abortion?
The thief comes only to steal, and kill, and destroy; I came that they might have life, and might have it abundantly. John 10:10

You are of your father the devil, and you want to do the desires of your father. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. John 8:44

Everyone who hates his brother is a murderer; and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him. 1 John 3:15

He ("the wicked") sits in the lurking places of the villages; In the hiding places he kills the innocent. Psalms 10:8

...And Jesus said, "You shall not commit murder...." Matthew 19:18

But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part wil be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death. Rev. 21:8

There is no other book on earth other than the Holy Bible that clearly condemns the act of abortion i.e., "murder of the unborn". It is a sin, it takes away life formed by God Himself in the womb, it kills an innocent unborn child, it awaits judgement of second death both to those who do the act (the abortionists) and to those who approve it. All those who are guilty are called to repent for unless they repent, they will perish.

There is no exception to abortion; be it rape, retardation or the like. As to the "choice of life" between the mother and the child, a loving sacrificial mother if given a choice will lay her life for her child, born or unborn. I think being a mother myself, that is a godly attitude that is built within us. :)

Every life in the womb is God-breathed and killing it is going against the will of its Creator.

[zoegal]

i think if the girl's health is at risk then yes it is ok. but if not then its not right bcuz it was her choice to take the risk of getting pregnant. but thats my opinion

[germanJoy]

i think if the girl's health is at risk then yes it is ok. but if not then its not right bcuz it was her choice to take the risk of getting pregnant. but thats my opinion
If you are referring to ectopic (tubal) pregnancy, that is totally a different case. IMO ectopic pregnancy has nothing, if not "a little", to do with abortion. It is nothing else but an operation done to save the life of the patient. But there is an interesting point to consider. I have read that one of the causes of ectopic pregrnancy is previous abortion. It looks like it warns women to keep themselves from abortion in order not to face the possible consequence of tubal pregnancy in the future. :-)

[zoegal]

If you are referring to ectopic (tubal) pregnancy, that is totally a different case. IMO ectopic pregnancy has nothing, if not "a little", to do with abortion. It is nothing else but an operation done to save the life of the patient. But there is an interesting point to consider. I have read that one of the causes of ectopic pregrnancy is previous abortion. It looks like it warns women to keep themselves from abortion in order not to face the possible consequence of tubal pregnancy in the future. :-)
oh ok german joy. but also wat about if the girl was raped?

[Rylee]

zoegal - Rape is unfortunate, but it does not warrant the murder of a child.

[germanJoy]

oh ok german joy. but also wat about if the girl was raped?
"Rape" is a word not found in the bible although it has become a regular occurrence today. It makes me think that "rape" (as we have it now) was not a common case in the earlier times, both old and new testament. The change can only be attributed to the sinful and indecent lifestyle of the modern times such as pornography, obscene films, lustful wearing of garments by women, etc. Unlike the women of ancient times, sadly the wordly women of today are very provoking towards the lustful eyes of men leading to many cases of rape. Except for the "innocent" decent women (my heart cries out for them most especially to the virgins :cf ), I show lesser understanding to my fellow gender if out of their indecencies, they become victims of rape. To avoid it, we women should wear "proper" clothing at all times. :-)

There was one word of instruction God gave regarding "taking an engaged girl (virgin)" by force (rape) in Deut. 22:25-26.

But if in the field the man finds the girl who is engaged, and the man forces and lies with her, then only the man who lies with her shall die. But you shall do nothing to the girl; there is no sin in the girl worthy of death for just as a man rises against his neighbor and murders him, so is this case.

This instruction is specifically made for "virgins". The previous verses were referring to an "engaged virgin" who lies with another man and both were sentenced to death. The next verses (25-26) were referring to an "engaged virgin" who was raped and only the rapist was sentenced to death. The following verses were referring to an "unengaged virgin" who lies with a man and the man had to marry her. This settles the fact that these verses of instruction were made for the cases of the "virgins" and not of "rape".

Two clear incidents of "rape" are mentioned in the Old Testament as far as my knowledge is concerned, namely:

1. Gen. Chapter 34 when Dinah, Jacob's daughter was "raped" (taken by force) by Shechem, the Hivite. Dinah's brother killed Shechem with his fellow countrymen for the crime.

2. 2 Sam. Chapter 13 when Tamar was "raped" (taken by force) by Ammon her brother. Absalom, also her brother, killed Ammon for the crime.

Unfortunately, it was not mentioned whether these women got pregnant afterwards. But I am quite certain that if they became pregnant, they gave birth to the babies. Abortion was never practiced during those times for it is a life-threatening process a pregnant woman would undergo. Besides, those women believed in the God who is the Author of life. Being God-fearing, they would never dare kill a life in the womb.

As for today, it should remain the same. A God-fearing girl/woman who gets pregnant against her will should keep the life in her womb. If she is not willing to raise the child up herself, she could still resort to adoption for many God-fearing and child-loving couples are ready to take the responsibility. :)

But what about abortion? NO WAY! :p

[Word]

oh ok german joy. but also wat about if the girl was raped?


I have to agree with Rylee, zoegal.

zoegal - Rape is unfortunate, but it does not warrant the murder of a child.

Don't you know that God causes all things to work towards the good, even evilly intended things? The perfect example is Christ's crucifixion.:)

[brassrocker4God]

i think it is sometimes okay to have an abortion if: the mother's life is severely in danger, if the mother is extremely young, if the baby is almost definitely going to die within the first few days of his/her life, if the baby will be so severely deformed and/or mentally handicapped that his/her life would not be good, or if the baby will be born into a situation so awful he/she will wish they were never born. there are some situations that i feel a child should not be forced to endure. i am open to other people's oppinion on this subject but i have to say i hope that people who are adamantly pro-life are equally adamant about helping children in awful home situations that they can't get out of. for me the biggest issue is not 'deciding' whether a baby should be born or not but is helping people who are living in this world and are faced with horrible situations.

[cole007]

Hi Fellow,

Abortion is an act of murder. If you look at your dictionary murder is an act of killing which is stated by God in the ten commandments (Exodus 20:13). It's simply againts Gods will.

Yours in Christ.

[zoegal]

wat if the girl doesnt want the kid and is only pregnant cuz she got raped. then is she forced to have the baby or wat?
and i agree with brassrocker4God

[Rylee]

You must remember: Children are a gift from God. There is a reason that God wanted her to have the baby, and the reason wasn't so she could abort it.

She can always give the child up for adoption. Just because she was raped doesn't give her the right to murder a child. Why would she want to murder the baby? The baby wasn't the one that raped her. That's punishing the victim, not the criminal.

[Rylee]

Who are we to make the decision for the child whether or not (s)he will have a good quality of life? Yes, it is true, children are born in to bad situations, but there is always hope. It's not our choice to kill the child, it's not our life... ALL LIFE BELONGS TO THE LORD and He says that it is not our right to take it.

[germanJoy]

i think it is sometimes okay to have an abortion if: the mother's life is severely in danger,
The explanation to this case has been already made in the previous posts.

if the mother is extremely young
An extremely young mother is not exempted from the judgement of murder.

if the baby is almost definitely going to die within the first few days of his/her life,

That sounds to me more like "lack of faith". For "anencephalic babies", the following information is interesting:

More difficult is the case of the anencephalic baby. According to the American Medical Association Encyclopedia of Medicine, anencephaly is the "absence at birth of the brain, cranial vault (top of the skull), and spinal cord. Most affected infants are stillborn or survive only a few hours." Anencephaly occurs "due to a failure in development of the neural tube, the nerve tissue in the embryo that eventually develops into the spinal cord and brain." A woman can know early in pregnancy that she is carrying an anencephalic baby "by measurement of alphafetoprotein, by ultrasound scanning, and by amnio-centesis..." [24]

We may or may not be dealing with human beings in the case of anencephalic babies. Citing the work of Professor Germain Grisez, Krason argues that "there are two ways we may view the 'anencephalic monster,' depending on when the abnormality originates." One way, "when the abnormality or the genetic certainty of it is present from conception, is to view the organism as human in its conception, but incapable of developing beyond a few hours, a few days, or a few weeks." He argues "that in such cases, especially if the specifically human genetic pattern is greatly transformed, we may not consider the conceptus a human individual." [25]

Relying on Grisez, Krason writes that when the abnormality develops some time after conception we could view the anencephelic as we would an individual who has had his head blown off by a shotgun. "Such a person is human and remains such until he dies." Since "the anencephalic originated as a human and developed normally up to the point when the neural tube failed to close...he thus can be viewed as a human being, albeit a damaged one, whose abnormality will cause his death shortly after birth, like the gunshot-wounded person will die a short while after his wound."[26] A damaged human is not a nonhuman.

It should be remembered, however, that the anencephalic is a "hard case," and cannot be used to justify the vast majority of abortions that involve the killing of healthy unborns for any reason the pregnant woman deems fit. Furthermore, the argument from the apparent nonhumanness of the anencephalic implicitly admits what is the main contention of the pro-life position, namely, that unborn human beings should not be killed.



if the baby will be so severely deformed and/or mentally handicapped that his/her life would not be good,
What makes you think that the mentally handicaps are living a bad life? Don't you know that studies show there was no case of "suicide" among handicaps? That means they are happy human beings. I used to have a close family member who was a handicap. She made me always joyful and happy. :)

It is amazingly presumptuous for mere human beings to say that certain other human beings are better off not existing. Those who make such judgments concerning the handicapped seem to assume that handicapped persons cannot live meaningful and even happy lives. However, this assumption is false.
Former U.S. Surgeon General C. Everett Koop, who worked for years with severely deformed infants as a pediatric surgeon at Philadelphia's Children's Hospital, commented that...

"It has been my constant experience that disability and unhappiness do not necessarily go together".[17]

He continues:

Some of the most unhappy children whom I have known have all of their physical and mental faculties, and on the other hand some of the happiest youngsters have borne burdens which I myself would find very difficult to bear. Our obligation in such circumstances is to find alternatives for the problems our patients face. I don't consider death an acceptable alternative. With our technology and creativity, we are merely at the beginning of what we can do educationally and in the field of leisure activities for such youngsters. And who knows what happiness is for another person?[18]

This is not to deny that there are tragedies in life and that having a handicapped child is often a difficult burden to undertake. But I think it is important to realize that if the unborn entity is fully human, homicide cannot be justified simply because it relieves one of a terrible burden.
Though it may be hard to accept, I believe the following principle is fundamental to correct moral reasoning:

IT IS BETTER TO SUFFER EVIL
RATHER THAN TO INFLICT IT. [19]

If this moral precept were not true, all so-called moral dilemmas would be easily soluble by simply appealing to one's own relief from suffering. But in such a world the antidote would be worse than the poison, for people would then have a right to inflict suffering on another if it relieved them of their own. This would be morally intolerable.
Moreover, it should not be forgotten that a handicapped child can give both society and the family into which it has been born an opportunity to exercise true compassion, love, charity, and kindness. It is an assault upon our common humanity to deny our capacity to attain virtue in the presence of suffering.

[Editor's note: Caring for the suffering, the ill and handicapped is the right and loving thing to do. They are worthy of our love. Furthermore, in many cases, they contribute joy to a family.]

or if the baby will be born into a situation so awful he/she will wish they were never born. there are some situations that i feel a child should not be forced to endure.
Are you concluding that all suffering children in the world have to be killed for they would wish to die? I have seen many "suffering" poor children but they give more smiles than the "unsuffering" rich ones; I have yet to meet a "suffering child" who wishes to die for I know not one. Even those who are victims of rape, abuse, etc. inspite of their tragedies still aspire for life. :-)

i am open to other people's oppinion on this subject but i have to say i hope that people who are adamantly pro-life are equally adamant about helping children in awful home situations that they can't get out of.
The pro-choice who kill these children are those who rob them of earthly abode. The pro-life help these kids get a "loving home" as much as possible.

for me the biggest issue is not 'deciding' whether a baby should be born or not but is helping people who are living in this world and are faced with horrible situations.
Killing anyone, born or unborn, will not free anyone of horrible situations. On the contrary, abortion will exactly bring them to "these horrible situations."

It should also be remembered that a death occurs every time an abortion is performed--the death of an unborn child. Women have control over choosing an illegal abortion that they know could be harmful. The unborn has absolutely no control when the mother chooses to abort. In addition, abortion is a surgical procedure, and even though it is legal, it still puts many women at risk. Many women suffer post-abortion complications, such as severe muscle damage and damage to the uterine wall, which can lead to scarring, future miscarriages, ectopic pregnancies, and other future medical problems. In addition, induced abortion approximately triples the risk of suicide (British Medical Journal, 7 Dec 1996); women who carry full-term have about 1/2 the risk of suicide as the general female population.

I hope that you will be enlightened of the terrors abortion can bring to this world.

In Christ,
germanJoy

Quoted Sources: http://christiananswers.net/q-sum/q.life032.html

[Rylee]

zoegal - this link is primarily for you:

Stories of Rape (http://christiananswers.net/life/stories-rape.html) (Of a sensitive nature, please don't read if this topic easily upsets you).

I am not posting this link to stir, but rather to try to educate. I cannot speak from personal experience, but the girls that tell their stories posted in the above link can, and I hope it will offer you a better understanding of what I've been trying to explain.

[Word]

Concerning the question of rape or incest...I say...execute the rapist, and let the baby live...

blueheron32

I fully agree with leting the Baby live.:)

[SemperReformanda]

so im super slow in seeing and responding to this one :P

but know thats no what i was saying.
What i am pointing out is that God's way (or one of them) of excersizing justice is through Governments that he set up.
However, in our system, the government he set up is us. (governed by the people and for the people)

As far as God's ways we are given two directives. To applaud, and love justice, and to love and practice mercy. If I am government, and I am making laws (because this is supposed to be a republic) how do i show mercy (turn the other cheek) when i am sinned against, and at the same time demand death for those who sin against me and mine?

note im not saying we shouldnt, im just trying to find in my own mind how to reconcile the two.

[Word]

Thats a tough one for me blue. Something i've been struggling with in my own mind. Not the letting the baby live part, i agree with that whole heartedly. But our role as believers, recognizign that I am just as depraved as the rapist but mercy was shown to me. Where do you draw the line between being the ungrateful servant who doesnt forgive where he was forgiven, and showingthe world that unbalanced scales are an abomination and justice is good. The line is pretty fuzzy in my mind.. any insite woudl be very appreciated, perhap on a different thread? so we dont change the subject.

I applaud your comments and keep them comming.:)

[mara]

it depends on circumstances. it's a good point about adoption, that's always an option to be considered. abortion should be the last option, in the most extreme cases. the babies sanctity of life needs to be considered, but if you can't give it a good quality of life. there are always others that can.

[allthingspure]

If a woman kills her baby....no matter the circumstances....it is wrong!
Just say she was raped.....and she has an abortion......In the eyes of God would her actions be justified? Would she be any better than the one who raped her? Is murdering a sinless child a lesser sin than rape?
Does two wrongs make a right?

[Sara †]

I have just read all these posts, One of them was from me but now that I am at the end thus far I now have a question.....I think we all agree that having an abortion just because you don't want the baby, is wrong. Most everyone has said the next option would be Adoption. Someone once said something to this effect that, "even adoption is wrong because God gave that person that child" what are your views on this?? Abortion/killing the child is wrong, now what about adoption/giving the baby away? Children are a gift from God, but can children be a gift from a human as well? Just curious?

[Word]

I have just read all these posts, One of them was from me but now that I am at the end thus far I now have a question.....I think we all agree that having an abortion just because you don't want the baby, is wrong. Most everyone has said the next option would be Adoption. Someone once said something to this effect that, "even adoption is wrong because God gave that person that child" what are your views on this?? Abortion/killing the child is wrong, now what about adoption/giving the baby away? Children are a gift from God, but can children be a gift from a human as well? Just curious?


Most anything can be wrong depending on the attitude of ones heart. Also most anything can be right for the same reason, depending on the attitude of ones heart. But God is the only one that can judge a persons heart unless he has given that ability to someone else other than himself too.:)


Leting a baby be adopted would be highly perferable to having that baby put to death in an abortion.:)

[Ritalin]

First off I am not a Woman. But from all the women I've talked to they say, having an abortion is the toughest decition of a persons, life. Lets say, if the women is pregnate and the doctor tell her "if you have this baby, you will probbly die" what then, take one life or two. lets say a cople want to have a baby. but while she is prenate the husband takes off, she has no money to support the baby. would you rather watch a baby starve or have the baby feel nothing at all?

[Rylee]

Obviously, if it's one of those rare cases when it's either the baby or the mom, it's not really killing the baby... it's taking action to preserve the life of the mother. However, why kill a baby just because a husband leaves a wife? She can always choose to give the baby up for adoption.

Where's your proof that the baby cannot feel? Some doctors believe that the baby can feel after 20 weeks, and all doctors know for a fact that the baby can feel after 24 weeks. Watch "The Silent Scream" and watch that baby's face, and watch him react when he is about to be torn to shreads, and then tell me that the baby can't feel.

[Lordhelpme]

So I guess the question is, is it ok to kill a baby?

[zoza]

i have to say abortion is wrong its taking the life of an unborn child wich is murder. Someone told me this little thing its like the baby's perspective on abortion.
" Mommy, he lied to you. He said that i I'm not a baby. I am a baby mommy. I'm your baby. I think and feel mommy, Whats abortion?"
"I can hear the doctor again. I don't like him. He seems cold and heartless. Something is intruding my home. The doctor called it a needle. Mommy what is it? It burns! Mommy make it stop! I can't wait to get away from it! Mommy!! Help me!! No..."
"Mommy I'm o.k. I'm in Jesus' arms. He is holding me. He told me about abortion. Why didn't you want me Mommy."

God Bless
Zoza

[Lance]

So is it okay to have an Abortion?

This is the kind of question that really ought not to arise among Christians but it does because of sin. I don't think that women who have had an abortion will not be forgiven, but it would have been better if the situation had not arisen in the first place.

Consider the case in heaven. The unborn child goes to heaven. So does the repentant mother. Whatever is the mother going to say to that child for denying him the right to live ? The mother's first duty is to protect her child—and luckily most do.

[Rylee]

This is the kind of question that really ought not to arise among Christians but it does because of sin.

My thoughts exactly! It's extremely disheartening that this is a subject that Christians (of all people) disagree on!

[Word]

My thoughts exactly! It's extremely disheartening that this is a subject that Christians (of all people) disagree on!

I know what you mean. I wouldn't be surprised if there were a few that have longed on to this forum that are not Christian at all or are so irresponsible that they fool themselves into believing that God winks at all foolishness.:)

[Word]

Elaboration of Pro-Life Issues and Answers in the below LINK....:)



http://www.christianchatforum.com/bbs/showthread.php?t=1579


-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[Rylee]

I really like your Respect for Life post on that thread... that is a beautiful and honest post.

[Word]

I really like your Respect for Life post on that thread... that is a beautiful and honest post.

Thank you Rylee! I must give thanks to the LORD and his Church for their leading.:)

[Lordhelpme]

Thank you Rylee! I must give thanks to the LORD and his Church for their leading.:)


God bless all of you saints!! I do ponder this at times. First of all, I do not believe in murder of any sort, accept self defense. God forbid any situation of the sort.

Anyway, a lady that works with me told her doctor told her to have an abortion or she will die, because she was having complications. Now she chose not to, and I applaud her for that and thank God that she nor her baby died.

Another guy told me the doctor told his mother to have an abortion with him or she would lose her mind. She had him and lost her mind and spent the rest of her days in a mental institution.

Now with these situations I do not know the answer. My husband told me if he had to make a decision, he'd choose me. Now what do you think? Is my view wrong or right?

This choice is to chose whose life to save. How can one make that decision without any pain or remorse? If you choose the baby, you've lost your wife and vice versa.

If anyone can find scripture on this please let me know. I thank God that has not happened to me and pray it never does. But also, I don't want to judge people or thing something is wrong when it may not be and vice versa.

[Rylee]

There is a difference between murdering a baby and choosing whether to let a life that's already been living continue to live or letting a new life be born. Although this is rare, if it happens, it would (in most cases) make more sense to abort the child in order to save the mother. I think I had made a post on that earlier but I'll have to look for it, and if I did, I'll re-post what I'd written.

***Edit - I couldn't find it, maybe I wrote it somewhere else... anyhow, that's the short version of my opinion. It's a rare occurance to have this happen, but if it comes between choosing between two lives rather than just murdering one for no good reason, it does change the situation a bit.

[Lordhelpme]

There is a difference between murdering a baby and choosing whether to let a life that's already been living continue to live or letting a new life be born. Although this is rare, if it happens, it would (in most cases) make more sense to abort the child in order to save the mother. I think I had made a post on that earlier but I'll have to look for it, and if I did, I'll re-post what I'd written.

***Edit - I couldn't find it, maybe I wrote it somewhere else... anyhow, that's the short version of my opinion. It's a rare occurance to have this happen, but if it comes between choosing between two lives rather than just murdering one for no good reason, it does change the situation a bit.


Thanks Rylee.

[Rylee]

Since I was unable to find the post I was looking for, I have found two articles that present the points that I was trying to make. I hope you find them helpful. The articles have been copied and pasted below the links, but if you'd like to read them on the original webpage which I copied and pasted them from, then just click on the link.

Is Abortion Ever Medically Necessary? (http://ww.all.org/article.php?id=10216)

Abortion is never necessary to save a mother's life.

It is important to distinguish between direct abortion, which is the intentional and willed destruction of a preborn child, and a legitimate treatment a pregnant mother may choose to save her life. Operations that are performed to save the life of the mother-such as the removal of a cancerous uterus or an ectopic pregnancy that poses the threat of imminent death-are considered indirect abortions.

They are justified under a concept called the "principle of double effect." Under this principle, the death of the child is an unintended effect of an operation independently justified by the necessity of saving the mother's life.

Essentially, both mother and child should be treated as patients. A doctor should try to protect both. However, in the course of treating a woman, if her child dies, that is not considered abortion.


Today it is possible for almost any patient to be brought through pregnancy alive, unless she suffers from a fatal disease such as cancer or leukemia, and if so, abortion would be unlikely to prolong, much less save the life of the mother.
-Alan Guttmacher, former Planned Parenthood president



Abortion to Save The Mother's Life (http://www.spuc.org.uk/students/abortion/mothers)

Between 1967 and 1990, only 151 abortions have been carried out to save the mother's life, a figure amounting to 0.004% of all abortions. (Dr Michael Jarmulowicz, cited in The Physical and Psycho-Social effects of Abortion on Women: A Report by the Commission of Inquiry into the Operation and Consequences of The Abortion Act, June 1994 p. 5)

In 1992, a group of Ireland's top gynaecologists wrote: "We affirm that there are no medical circumstances justifying direct abortion, that is, no circumstances in which the life of a mother may only be saved by directly terminating the life of her unborn child." (John Bonner, Eamon O'Dwyer, David Jenkins, Kieran O'Driscoll, Julia Vaughan, 'Statement by Obstetricians', The Irish Times 1 April 1992)

When Dublin's National Maternity Hospital (where 10% of all births in Ireland occurred) investigated the 21 deaths of pregnant women there between 1970-1979, they found that not a single one of those deaths could have been avoided by abortion. (Irish Medical Journal 1982 vol. 75, pp. 304-306)

Ireland, a country where the unborn child is constitutionally protected, has the lowest maternal death rate in the world. The UK, where abortion is available practically on demand, has over five times Ireland's maternal death rate. (World Health Organisation: maternal deaths, three-year average)

Developments in medicine mean that the 'abortion to save the mother's life' argument is becoming harder and harder to justify. It is now possible for women with heart defects to carry a baby to term with expert help and life-threatening conditions such as cancer can often be treated without harming the unborn child. Women facing difficult pregnancies have a right to the best available medical support.

Direct abortion is the deliberate killing of an unborn child. Treatment to save the life of the mother that results in the death of the child as an expected but not intended side effect is not a direct abortion, e.g. in the case of an ectopic pregnancy. In this situation, the baby begins to develop in the woman's fallopian tube and has to be removed or the tube will rupture and cause the death of the woman. This involves the unavoidable death of the unborn baby but the aim of the operation is to save the mother not to kill the baby.

[larry]

Dear saints of God, I have not read all the previous responses, so I hope I'm not repeating something already said, though I surely doubt it. I do not mean to offend you with this response, but I am sure it will some, but NO, it is not alright to have an abortion, but then it is not alright to break the laws of the land, covet, steal, not love your neighbor as yourself, excessive drink, etc. I think we should close down all the abortion clinics, close the bars, take away cigarettes from the world and some Christians, make everyone think right such as not killing others with anger in their heart or looking upon a woman with lust thus committing adultery with her.

I know there are well meaning people adamant about abortion, but you are not the one that is going to stop sin in the Nth degree; God is, and He is the avenger for such sin. Do you really want to steal from God? In Romans 12:19 Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord. Oh, I'll vote a crooked politician into office that will promise he will vote anti-abortion, even though he will line his own pockets with our taxes. I don't mean to get political. STOP IT larry!

Well meaning people also march around abortion clinics to stop the world from killing an unborn baby, while there are a multitude of live children and parents being slaughtered for the purpose of genocide of a whole race. If you really believe in saving all children, take up arms and kill those doing that, or are you scared of bullets coming back at you having fear of what man can do to you? Does your values have merit, and are you going to show your faith by your works, or just allow people to keep killing live children while you watch? Shoot baby-killers, huh? Some have tried that and are sitting in jails today. Enough of this meaningless dribble, but I hope eyes and hearts are open enough to hear. Remember that God's eye is on the sparrow, and I know He remembers me, and you. If you really want to do something for God, study to show yourselves approved unto God, and grow in grace and knowledge of our Lord and savior Jesus. Remember Mary sitting at the feet of Jesus and just listening and loving the Lord, and how she was commended as having chosen the best part. I'm sure if she had wanted to, she could have found some drum to march to, or fly someone else's banner instead of what she chose to do.

1 Timothy 1:9 "Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, (We are the righteous that are in Christ) but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers," As were we all before we accepted Jesus as our savior.

God bless you all in Jesus' name - larry

[Kimberly]

I have always been and always will be pro-life. But I was not always against the death penalty. Several years ago I was speaking with a person who was pro-choice but was against the death penalty.

It seemed luticrous to me that someone would agree with abortion and disagree with the death penality. This person argued that God would not want us to execute anyone because of a crime they commited because she believed that they deserved every opportunity to come to know Christ. She felt that if their life were shortened by execution before they had come to know the Lord then their blood would be on our hands.

The more I thought of her views being at "oppisite ends of the spectrum" the more I realized that my own views were at "oppisite ends of the spectrum" and I realized that ALL LIFE is GOD'S LIFE and just as an unborn person deserves the life God has given them, then so does a person who has commited a crime. After all, except by the grace of God, there go I.

Any thoughts????

[Kimberly]

Times were evil even during the time of the Old Testament as the men of Sodem and Gomorrah wanted to have sex with the two angels and their eyes had to be blinded.

Lots daughters having sex with their own father . . .

Genesis Chapter 19

[Kimberly]

Larry,
Are you a pastor? You seem to know a lot of scripture and I love reading your posts.

[larry]

Thank you dear Kimberly, but no, I'm not a pastor thank God; I do not believe I could carry that burden. Even on this chat line there are so many needing prayer and advice from scripture that I love in Christ that I can only pray for. I'm just a pew sitter that loves the Lord.

God bless you for your kindness in Jesus' name - larry

[sheilaforchrist]

So is it okay to have an Abortion?
No, absolutely, it is not alright to have an abortion. A child is a child is a child no matter if they are still in our uterus or in this world. If you have a personal relationship with Jesus Christ, seek His answer to this question and He will tell you no. All life is precious to Jesus. Besides that, it may be something you come to regret in later years...Watch some of the Christian shows on television and see what those women who have had an abortion think now, after it's been done. It can be a very very difficult thing to get over once you realize you have ended a life. Yes, God will forgive you but you also have to forgive yourself once you realize....

[corbinfire]

I believe that abortion is a sin, and that we cant justify it even in the case of rape.You dont repay evil with evil, two wrongs dont make a right. If the individual cant bear the raise the child, then put it, (no him/her) up for adoption. I think thats where the problem lies. when we look at the baby as an "it"

[Alicia]

No its not okay because I was knitted together in secret in my mothers womb by the hand of God and if my mother would have choosen to abort me because she was raped then I would not be here with you today trying to make a difference in this world being a vessel that our precious Lord wanted to use before this old world was made. My mother refused to kill me even though she was married and people wanted her to abort me. Thank You Lord ! Someone prayed for my life:)

[Roxy]

So is it okay to have an Abortion?
As a Christian one would have to say no. But not all mankind are Christians and although we are to try to bring others to God I do not believe it is right to force one's beliefs on another. People must come to God of free will. If our government were made up of Muslims, would you want the government to impose that religion on all and make it law? I believe as a Christian abortion is wrong but I also believe in the freedom to believe as you will. You can't use law to bring people to Christianity they must come because they see the way not because someone tries to force it down their throats. That can only cause rebellion. I pray fro all who are facing this decision to hear the word and will of God and act accordingly.

[Bigdad]

Is it wrong to have an abortion? Yes.
Why? The responces that I've read on this post has been about age, rape,and deformaty, forcing others to your views, their may be others, those are what I remember. As to the reason for having an abortion.

The one thing that I've not heard about is how many does it take to have a natural baby? If you answered two you would be wrong. The answer is three. One man, one woman, and the one people seem to forget about God. If God wants a child to be born due to rape or deformed, who are we to say no lets kill him/her. God says in his word that the fruit of the womb was a blessing, but man has turned it into a curse. Something else God's word says would happen in the last days.

Why is it that people look at a child born of such a violent means has no right to live. Has it not occured that God has already planned a blessing, for the woman of such an act. Have you thought of what a champion for justice a child born of such means could be knowing how they were conceived, and knowing that their mother loved them enough to bring them into this world. To be able to fight against evil men. The very people who helped to create them in the first place. Showing the love of God by a mother who love her child no matter what.

These are my thoughts on the matter.

[Earl100]

So is it okay to have an Abortion?
Life begins at fertilization. Killing sperm or killing eggs is not killing a human. But after they combine, it is--each sperm has 23 chromosomes and each egg has 23. The fertilized egg has 46, just like born babies and us.

Exodus 15:2 You shall not murder and even more important, God's second most important commandment: Mark 12:31 Love thy neighbor as thyself. Is there any neighbor closer to a mother than her preborn baby? Is killing this baby loving her?

[stealpick]

I've been following this discussion with great interest, and I've been trying to find scriptural references to unborn children and the value God and the Bible places on them. But so far, everything I've come up with seems to place little value on fetuses and even infants.

For example, in Leviticus 27 God defines a monetary value on human life, and only applies value to children over a month old:

Leviticus 26:6
If it is a person between one month and five years, set the value of a male at five shekels of silver and that of a female at three shekels of silver.

In Numbers 3:15-16 again only children more than one month old are considered "countable."

Count the Levites by their families and clans. Count every male a month old or more. So Moses counted them, as he was commanded by the word of the LORD.

And in Exodus 21:22 the law is stated that if two men fight and cause a woman to miscarry, the man who caused it should be fined. But if the woman dies, then the man who caused it should be put to death. That seems to me as though God puts more value in the woman's life than the fetuses life.

If men strive, and hurt a woman with child, so that her fruit depart from her, and yet no mischief follow: he shall be surely punished, according as the woman's husband will lay upon him; and he shall pay as the judges determine.
And if any mischief follow, then thou shalt give life for life.

That's pretty much all I've found so far. Can anyone point me to some passages that specifically address fetuses?

[germanJoy]

I've been following this discussion with great interest, and I've been trying to find scriptural references to unborn children and the value God and the Bible places on them. But so far, everything I've come up with seems to place little value on fetuses and even infants.
What makes you say that the bible shows little value on fetuses and infants? Is it because you are looking for the modern medical term "fetuses"? No wonder you missed it! :-(

For example, in Leviticus 27 God defines a monetary value on human life, and only applies value to children over a month old:
You have wrongly interpreted Leviticus 27. The issue here is the value of the vow (person belonging to the Lord) a man makes. If the person he is vowing ages between a month and fives years, his vow is valued five shekels for a male child and three shekels for a female child. The older the person is the higher the value of the vow is. It is not to be interpreted in a way that human beings here are valued, sold and bought like objects or animals. It is the fact that the ones doing vows have to realize and pay the value of their vows.

The fact remains that the bible has not specified any reason why the infants below one month old were unvalued. One possible reason could be because they are too valuable.

At any rate, these valuations have nothing to do at all with the life inside a womb.

In Numbers 3:15-16 again only children more than one month old are considered "countable."
What really should interest us here is how these ancient women nursed and weaned their infants. Could it be that there was a high mortality rate of infants from birth until 30 days old which makes a month old infant pass the period of survival?

Anyways, what is the difference between 30 days and 31 days old? Do you really think it does make a difference? :-)

What an argument! :LOL

And in Exodus 21:22 the law is stated that if two men fight and cause a woman to miscarry, the man who caused it should be fined. But if the woman dies, then the man who caused it should be put to death. That seems to me as though God puts more value in the woman's life than the fetuses life.

And if men struggle with each other and strike a woman with child so that she has a miscarriage, yet there is no further injury; he shall surely be fined as the woman's husband may demand of him; and he shall pay as the judges decide. Exodus 21:22

What makes you conclude that the offender is not punished from the lost of the woman's husband, the father? He pays for the miscarriage which I am sure the father would demand from him. :-)

That's pretty much all I've found so far. Can anyone point me to some passages that specifically address fetuses?

Upon You I was cast from birth; You have been my God from my mother's womb. Psalms 22:10

For You formed my inward parts; You wove me in my mother's womb. Psalms 139:13

Now who dares kill the one whom God had formed and woven? :(

germanJoy

[stealpick]

You have wrongly interpreted Leviticus 27. The issue here is the value of the vow (person belonging to the Lord) a man makes. If the person he is vowing ages between a month and fives years, his vow is valued five shekels for a male child and three shekels for a female child. The older the person is the higher the value of the vow is. It is not to be interpreted in a way that human beings here are valued, sold and bought like objects or animals. It is the fact that the ones doing vows have to realize and pay the value of their vows.

Are you saying that a 1 month old baby can "realize and pay the value of their vows?" If that's the case, then, as you say later in your post, "what is the difference between 30 days and 31 days old?" Besides, you're missing the point. The point is that the Bible makes a written distinction here--why does it not say "If the person he is vowing ages between CONCEPTION or BIRTH and fives years…"? The implication is that an infant must reach 1 month of age first.

The fact remains that the bible has not specified any reason why the infants below one month old were unvalued. One possible reason could be because they are too valuable.

That's pretty specious reasoning. The bible also has not specified any value on mobile phones, dinosaurs, or toothbrushes. Probably because they're also too valuable.


What really should interest us here is how these ancient women nursed and weaned their infants. Could it be that there was a high mortality rate of infants from birth until 30 days old which makes a month old infant pass the period of survival?
You make a very good point here, but not for your own argument. The high mortality rate certainly would cause the unborn or very young infants to be discerned as less valuable than children who have passed the period of survival. You never knew if they were going to survive or not. Certainly the mother's life was more important than the infant, because if she miscarried, at least she could try to bear another child.

And if men struggle with each other and strike a woman with child so that she has a miscarriage, yet there is no further injury; he shall surely be fined as the woman's husband may demand of him; and he shall pay as the judges decide. Exodus 21:22

What makes you conclude that the offender is not punished from the lost of the woman's husband, the father? He pays for the miscarriage which I am sure the father would demand from him. :-)
Did you really read my post? Where did I say that the offender is not punished? You even quoted me in your post, "And in Exodus 21:22 the law is stated that if two men fight and cause a woman to miscarry, the man who caused it should be fined." How is that different than what you posted: "He pays for the miscarriage which I am sure the father would demand from him."

The Bible states that if the man causes a miscarriage, he should be fined. But if he kills the woman, he himself should be killed. That clearly shows a valuing of the woman's life more than the unborn child.

Upon You I was cast from birth; You have been my God from my mother's womb. Psalms 22:10
This is a psalm told from the perspective of man. It sings God's praises, as we all should, for bringing us out of the womb and allowing us to live. But I'm seeking a clear statement from the scripture that tells us what God himself says the value of an unborn child is, especially as it relates to the value of the mother's life. (And no, I don't specifically need the word "fetus" to appear in the scripture. Just something that unquestionably references an unborn child.)

For You formed my inward parts; You wove me in my mother's womb. Psalms 139:13
Again, no one is questioning the creator of our bodies here. But this still doesn't speak to the value of an unborn child over the value of the mother.

[germanJoy]

Are you saying that a 1 month old baby can "realize and pay the value of their vows?" If that's the case, then, as you say later in your post, "what is the difference between 30 days and 31 days old?" ..
Obviously you misunderstood the context of Lev. 27. The one paying the value of the vow is the person doing the vow.

Besides, you're missing the point. The point is that the Bible makes a written distinction here--why does it not say "If the person he is vowing ages between CONCEPTION or BIRTH and fives years…"? The implication is that an infant must reach 1 month of age first.
That is your own implication, stealpick. Correct me if I am wrong but I am starting to have an impression that you are eagerly looking for a Scripture to justify the sin of abortion. If so, you are walking on a thin ice if you make yourself believe that just because the below 1 month old infant is not valued in Lev. 27, their lives are valueless. Such implication is fallacious and clearly unscriptural! :(

If the bible is silent about something, leave it as it is. For if you add something to it to justify a sin, you will be held accountable. And we certainly don't want that to happen.

That's pretty specious reasoning. The bible also has not specified any value on mobile phones, dinosaurs, or toothbrushes. Probably because they're also too valuable.
Now you are comparing infants with objects. Is it really necessary? :-(

You make a very good point here, but not for your own argument. The high mortality rate certainly would cause the unborn or very young infants to be discerned as less valuable than children who have passed the period of survival. You never knew if they were going to survive or not. Certainly the mother's life was more important than the infant, because if she miscarried, at least she could try to bear another child.
I never disagreed on the importance of the mother's life. It is not the point of discussion. The title of this thread is "Is it OK to have an Abortion?". The threadopener wants to know whether the Word of God approves Abortion and not whose life is more important, mother or child. If you want to know the answer to this, I suggest that you open another thread.

The Bible states that if the man causes a miscarriage, he should be fined. But if he kills the woman, he himself should be killed. That clearly shows a valuing of the woman's life more than the unborn child.
It neither makes the unborn child valueless, stealpick. So what is really your point? Are you bound to believe that an unborn child is valueless i.e, lifeless? If so, give me a Scripture that supports it and let us see what it says.

This is a psalm told from the perspective of man. It sings God's praises, as we all should, for bringing us out of the womb and allowing us to live.
This was the testimony of David who confirmed that God is the One who formed him (as a fetus) even when he was in his mother's womb. You demanded for a Scripture about a fetus and I gave you one. It was not just bringing him out of the womb but being formed and woven by God in his mother's womb. Imagine that! God even fashions a fetus in the womb:

Did not He who made me in the womb make him, And the same one fashion us in the womb? Job 31:15

But I'm seeking a clear statement from the scripture that tells us what God himself says the value of an unborn child is, especially as it relates to the value of the mother's life.

Again, no one is questioning the creator of our bodies here. But this still doesn't speak to the value of an unborn child over the value of the mother.

I have no idea whether you are a mother, stealpick. But being a mother myself (a christian mother:-) ), I can only honestly tell you that I am even willing to lay my own life for the life of the child I am carrying in my womb. Perhaps there is really no need to ask God about that. Apparently the Lord had placed THE VALUE OF AN UNBORN CHILD into the hearts of the mothers, making us mothers to sacrificially LOVE the fetuses in our wombs. :)

Sincerely,
germanJoy

[USA Ford Gal]

Well you shouldn't put yourself in that place to have an abortion in the first place. If you do end up getting in that position, its your fault deal with it. Thats a hard way of putting it, but it will cause you some stress, but later down the road, it was the best decision you will make.

[mizworm]

I believe abortion is only okay if the mother's life is in danger. I believe she should have the right to choose to live.

[stealpick]

Correct me if I am wrong but I am starting to have an impression that you are eagerly looking for a Scripture to justify the sin of abortion.
Ok, you're wrong. I'm not looking to justify abortion at all. Again, I'm merely looking for scripture that clearly shows that the Bible places value in an unborn child.

If the bible is silent about something, leave it as it is.
But you don't really follow this advice yourself, do you? In your previous post you suggested that because the Bible doesn't mention something in particular, it's because it's too valuable. That's not really leaving it as it is, is it? The bible is apparently silent about unborn children, so why read into that and say that it's because children are too valuable to be mentioned? There are an infinite number of things that the Bible doesn't mention, are they all too valuable as well?


So what is really your point? Are you bound to believe that an unborn child is valueless i.e, lifeless? If so, give me a Scripture that supports it and let us see what it says.
No, in actuality I believe in the sanctity of life. But I'll say it again, I was looking to see if any scripture actually exists which specifically addresses the value of unborn children.

Perhaps there is really no need to ask God about that. Apparently the Lord had placed THE VALUE OF AN UNBORN CHILD into the hearts of the mothers, making us mothers to sacrificially LOVE the fetuses in our wombs.

I think you may have finally hit the nail on the head there. You understand the value of an unborn child yourself, without the need for justification from the Bible. So why are so many people always looking to the bible to support a pro-life stance? We know in our hearts what is right and what is wrong. As you say, perhaps there is no need to ask God about that.

[xandrina]

I believe it is okay to have an abortion in several circumstances: that of rape, incest, and the mothers life being in danger. That being said, I would argue that God will forgive those who have had an abortion because his love and grace is far beyond anyones comprehension.

[The Preacherman]

SO WOULD YOU ALL AGREE THAT:

There was no practice of abortion in Bible times. Therefore, the Bible never specifically addresses the issue. However, there are numerous teachings in Scripture that make it abundantly clear what Elohim’s view of abortion is. Jeremiah 1:5 tells us that Elohim knows us before He knits us in the womb. Psalm 139:13-16 speaks of Elohim’s active role in our creation and formation in the womb. Exodus 21:22-25 prescribes the same penalty of someone who causes the death of a baby in the womb as the penalty for someone who commits murder. This clearly indicates that Elohim considers a baby in the womb as just as much of a human being as a full-grown adult. For the Christian, abortion is not a matter of a woman’s right to choose. It is a matter of the life or death of a human being made in Elohim’s image (Genesis 1:26-27; 9:6).

The first argument that always arises against the Christian stance on abortion is, “What about cases of rape and/or incest?” As horrible as it would be to become pregnant as a result of rape and/or incest, does that make the murder of a baby the answer? Two wrongs do not make a right. The child who is a result of rape/incest could be given up for adoption to a loving family unable to have children on their own – or the child could be raised by its mother. Again, the baby should not be punished for the evil acts of its father.

The second argument that usually arises against the Christian stance on abortion is, “What about when the life of the mother is at risk?” Honestly, this is the most difficult question to answer on the issue of abortion. First, let’s remember that this situation is the reason behind less than one-tenth of one percent of the abortions done in the world today. Second, let’s remember that Elohim is a Elohim of miracles. He can preserve the life of a mother and a child despite all the medical odds being against it. Ultimately, though, this question can only be decided between a husband, wife, and Elohim. Any couple facing this extremely difficult situation should pray to the Yahweh for wisdom (James 1:5) as to what He would have them to do.

For those who have had an abortion – the sin of abortion is no less forgivable than any other sin. Through faith in Massiah, any and all sins can be forgiven (John 3:16; Romans 8:1; Colossians 1:14).

The question that should be asked is how much faith do you have in God?

Philippians 1:20-21
"20According to my earnest expectation and my hope, that in nothing I shall be ashamed, but that with all boldness, as always, so now also Christ shall be magnified in my body, whether it be by life, or by death.

21For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain. "

[Tee76]

Doing an abortion is like planing a murder for someone you don't know.Think about it you never talked to the baby or seen it and yet your going to kill the baby.You think by making it disappear it's less brutal but it's like stabbing it with a knife or shooting it.I would learly say that it's 100 percent a sin and I find it disgusing to kill someone that doesn't even have the chance with life.

Yes, abortion is murder and premeditated, at that!! I was raped at 15 and had my daughter at the age of 16. She is now 15 and has high hopes. I'm glad I had her and didn't murder her! She plans to become an obstetrician after completing her two more years of high school. What a benefit to society!! Don't you think?

[Kellys1981]

Abortion is NOT Ok in general. Only in cases where the mother and the baby's life are forefit should it be the choice. If the baby will live but not the mother then I guess that it would have to be up to the family but only if there is no doubt that both would die should it be done. People should not look at abortion as a right of choice because the innocent party in question gets no choice. A baby cannot choose life for itself but God has already commanded us to choose life for ourselves and for the innocents. Even if the mother is a victim of rape the baby has no part in the sin that was commited and should not be destroyed for that sin. God will comfort and heal the wounds of sins like that and a life is a presious gift out of something so deatructive as rape. That is my opinion on the matter.

[Pegasus]

My husband and I were talking about this the other day, we are both very pro-life and even if I were to get pregnant and could possibly die because of the child (which is a risk in 100% of all pregnancies) I would raither die and give my child a chance at life then kill the baby and live longer. The baby needs a chance at life where as I have already had a chance at life. Our main topic on this was in the case of an ectopic pregnancy.

[KJZ28]

How can it ever be right? God says he knows you from the time you are conceived. It is murder and it is appalling anyone voted sometimes or yes. i thought there were Christians on this board! It should be 100% NO!

[KJZ28]

I believe it is okay to have an abortion in several circumstances: that of rape, incest, and the mothers life being in danger. That being said, I would argue that God will forgive those who have had an abortion because his love and grace is far beyond anyones comprehension.

You think he will forgive you if you believe it is alright to murder someone? If your outlook on life is that God will forgive me for whatever I do so Ill go sin and commit crimes, how can God ever let you into the everlasting paradise on earth with that lifestyle?

[karyn harper]

I have always been and always will be pro-life. But I was not always against the death penalty. Several years ago I was speaking with a person who was pro-choice but was against the death penalty.

It seemed luticrous to me that someone would agree with abortion and disagree with the death penality. This person argued that God would not want us to execute anyone because of a crime they commited because she believed that they deserved every opportunity to come to know Christ. She felt that if their life were shortened by execution before they had come to know the Lord then their blood would be on our hands.

The more I thought of her views being at "oppisite ends of the spectrum" the more I realized that my own views were at "oppisite ends of the spectrum" and I realized that ALL LIFE is GOD'S LIFE and just as an unborn person deserves the life God has given them, then so does a person who has commited a crime. After all, except by the grace of God, there go I.

Any thoughts????
The more I thought of her views being at "oppisite ends of the spectrum" the more I realized that my own views were at "oppisite ends of the spectrum" and I realized that ALL LIFE is GOD'S LIFE and just as an unborn person deserves the life God has given them, then so does a person who has commited a crime. After all, except by the grace of God, there go I.

I have to admit that this really made me think. And the more I think about it, the more I think I tend to agree with you. I am 100% pro-life, with absolutely no exceptions. Before reading your post, I thought I was completely for the death penalty. Now, I'm not so sure. While I haven't, as of yet, changed my mind completely, I am seriously questioning my support of the death penalty.
Thank you for your honest post and very thought-provoking question.

[Thirsty]

Semper..

My statement was an extreme, to make a point. In our system, a person rapes someone, and a pregnancy results...(possibly).. So in such an event, we execute the baby. How by any bizarre reasoning is that "justice". How much more just, to execute the rapist, wouldnt you say??

In answer to your other question. Whether it is rape, or murder, or bank robbery, or whatever it is, mercy, does not cancel justice. You are correct, I am no better than the rapist, or murderer. The fact is I am probably worse. And yes mercy has been shown to me, should I not in turn show mercy to those who sin against me? And the answer is yes, I must. So does the fact that I show mercy, and forgive, cancel justice..?

The answer is, no. God has ordained government,

Rom 13:1 Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.
Rom 13:2 Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation.
Rom 13:3 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same:
Rom 13:4 For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.
Rom 13:5 Wherefore ye must needs be subject, not only for wrath, but also for conscience sake.
Rom 13:6 For for this cause pay ye tribute also: for they are God's ministers, attending continually upon this very thing.
Rom 13:7 Render therefore to all their dues: tribute to whom tribute is due; custom to whom custom; fear to whom fear; honour to whom honour.

And as imperfect as government is at times, he is still, "the minister of God to thee for good". and he beareth not the sword in vain. And.."for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil." You see semper, God has placed Government in a position to serve him, to execute justice. We do not take justice into our own hands, but God still requires it, and has provided a means by which it is carried out, in this world. He will execute judgment in the end. Maybe to tie up the loose ends that government missed..:-) Some may escape the justice of temporal governments, but none will escape the justice of God.

blueheron32
well said blue....can't get much clearer than that...but of course there will always be those who will try counter it with something to justify there sin

Thirsty

[Thirsty]

SO WOULD YOU ALL AGREE THAT:

There was no practice of abortion in Bible times. Therefore, the Bible never specifically addresses the issue. However, there are numerous teachings in Scripture that make it abundantly clear what Elohim’s view of abortion is. Jeremiah 1:5 tells us that Elohim knows us before He knits us in the womb. Psalm 139:13-16 speaks of Elohim’s active role in our creation and formation in the womb. Exodus 21:22-25 prescribes the same penalty of someone who causes the death of a baby in the womb as the penalty for someone who commits murder. This clearly indicates that Elohim considers a baby in the womb as just as much of a human being as a full-grown adult. For the Christian, abortion is not a matter of a woman’s right to choose. It is a matter of the life or death of a human being made in Elohim’s image (Genesis 1:26-27; 9:6).

The first argument that always arises against the Christian stance on abortion is, “What about cases of rape and/or incest?” As horrible as it would be to become pregnant as a result of rape and/or incest, does that make the murder of a baby the answer? Two wrongs do not make a right. The child who is a result of rape/incest could be given up for adoption to a loving family unable to have children on their own – or the child could be raised by its mother. Again, the baby should not be punished for the evil acts of its father.

The second argument that usually arises against the Christian stance on abortion is, “What about when the life of the mother is at risk?” Honestly, this is the most difficult question to answer on the issue of abortion. First, let’s remember that this situation is the reason behind less than one-tenth of one percent of the abortions done in the world today. Second, let’s remember that Elohim is a Elohim of miracles. He can preserve the life of a mother and a child despite all the medical odds being against it. Ultimately, though, this question can only be decided between a husband, wife, and Elohim. Any couple facing this extremely difficult situation should pray to the Yahweh for wisdom (James 1:5) as to what He would have them to do.

For those who have had an abortion – the sin of abortion is no less forgivable than any other sin. Through faith in Massiah, any and all sins can be forgiven (John 3:16; Romans 8:1; Colossians 1:14).
There is such a thing as C section and another thing is let the baby live and let God's will be done for whatever happens and also pro choice people usually use that as an excuse for those 2 main reasons they give but many just have the abortion simply because it is an inconvenience to them and a hinderance in there life which is to me a very selfish and pathetic excuse because there is no excuse to say the least as if it makes everything ok to murder an infant. One thing that I really think is so hypocritical also is that by law they think abortion is ok but after a baby is born and someone murders that child then they think it's murder but not when the baby is still in the womb. What twisted thinking that is...... and as far as those who say it's just a bunch of cells or plasma or whatever and not a human being should know that the Lord God has said in His word....

Psa 139:13 For thou didst form my inward parts: Thou didst cover me in my mother's womb.
Psa 139:14 I will give thanks unto thee; for I am fearfully and wonderfully made: Wonderful are thy works; And that my soul knoweth right well.
Psa 139:15 My frame was not hidden from thee, When I was made in secret, And curiously wrought in the lowest parts of the earth.
Psa 139:16 Thine eyes did see mine unformed substance; And in thy book they were all written, Even the days that were ordained for me, When as yet there was none of them.

Thirsty

[Jesuslovesme]

No absolutley not i think a baby has a right to live!! put it this way.... a baby would prefer to make up it's own mind if it wants to live, if it don't then it can kill it's self but nobody should have the right to speak on someone elses behalf as to whether they should live. If someone kills there 2 month old child then it's classed as murderer so why shouldn't it be if the child isn't yet born??

Gb u all

[Faith]

i think it is sometimes okay to have an abortion if: the mother's life is severely in danger, if the mother is extremely young, if the baby is almost definitely going to die within the first few days of his/her life, if the baby will be so severely deformed and/or mentally handicapped that his/her life would not be good, or if the baby will be born into a situation so awful he/she will wish they were never born. there are some situations that i feel a child should not be forced to endure. i am open to other people's oppinion on this subject but i have to say i hope that people who are adamantly pro-life are equally adamant about helping children in awful home situations that they can't get out of. for me the biggest issue is not 'deciding' whether a baby should be born or not but is helping people who are living in this world and are faced with horrible situations.


I was married at a young age to an abusive, cheating man and I got pregnant. I had my children anyway and I left shortly thereafter. Do you think my children are glad they are alive? YES!! Even though they were born into a situation that was not ideal? YES!! They are happy children and they love their lives! It would have been unfair of me to take that away from them. I'm not God, so I should not play God.

[inHisshadow]

Thou shalt not kill. I believe that is straight from the word of GOD

[Jesuslovesme]

i don't want to offend any 1 in here by saying this so pls don't take offence to anything i say after this!!

Abortion is practically murder, if a baby is killed 1 day before birth whether through illegal abortion or otherwise it is not classed as murder so why should it be 1 day after the child is born, has any 1 actually seen how an abortion is done at 20weeks ( the legal limit in UK) as the child is practically fully developed they hav 2 pull the limbs of the unborn baby to kill it ( i won't go into any more detail than that!) if u really want to see a christian perspective go on: http://biblia.com/abortion/ or type in abortion = murder and click on first 1, just to warn u it is a very emotional video which defernitaly changed my view on it! i hope i have put my view across without any offence being taken by any 1! as i no that this is a very sensitive issue for many people

[Faith]

I was married at a young age to an abusive, cheating man and I got pregnant. I had my children anyway and I left shortly thereafter. Do you think my children are glad they are alive? YES!! Even though they were born into a situation that was not ideal? YES!! They are happy children and they love their lives! It would have been unfair of me to take that away from them. I'm not God, so I should not play God.


I wanted to cl