Pro-choice AND Christian?

[Rylee]

Does anybody think that you can *truly* be pro-choice and Christian at the same time? I personally don't, but I just wanted to know everybody's thoughts and opinions.
Thanks for reading/responding! :-D

[Bikn4God]

Rylee,

I'm glad you take the side of babies.

I have always gone by this : God said, "Before you were in the womb, I knew you..."

That means we either existed where God is at one time, or we were a thought in God's mind. Regardless, He knew us. We were alive either in person or in the thoughts of God.

To terminate a pregnancy is killing a human being. Plain and simple. And it horrifies me that a Christian could conceive of such a thing and still call themselves a Christian.

Although I have not picketed abortion clinics, I have been involved in "protesting" abortion through other channels. Politicians and judges do not hear the screams and cries of protestors from their gated communities and guarded work buildings. ( Unless millions of Christians took to the streets and the voting booths, then we'd be heard! ) So we have to hit them in other areas where it hurts.

I believe that life is sacred to God. I understand that in time of war, human lives are lost, but war is a different matter. But to blatently murder a child who is incapable of defending themselves, offering resistance, or speaking against what is being done to them, is an unspeakable act.

There are millions of children ( Yes, Hilliary Clinton, I call them children ) being run through the abortion mills annually. It is a blight on this country, and it will bring down the anger of God on us for it.

My final thought...

It amazes me that when the Danes published a cartoon caracature of Mohammed, that the Muslims found offensive, that the Muslims hit the streets in anger and rioting. An offense to their "prophet" set off this kind of emotional fury. But when children are being butchered in American doctors offices under the guise of the "law", there is little apparent outrage in the streets by Christians.

Also... Hollywood produces movies each year that are total filth. They blaspheme our Lord's name every other word and trash the very person of Jesus Christ. Jesus is the person who saved us from hell, but Christians are not shaking their fists in anger against Hollywood one bit. No, they go out and spend money at the movies or Blockbuster and watch that garbage, all the while putting money in the pockets of these deviants who trash the name of our Lord.

If Christians would get off their "blessed assurances", quit whining, get angry, and take control of this country again, we'd receive the blessings from God. I really do believe that.

Thank you.

CJ
SFFS

[sisterinJesus]

Does anybody think that you can *truly* be pro-choice and Christian at the same time? I personally don't, but I just wanted to know everybody's thoughts and opinions.
Thanks for reading/responding! :-D


Sure they can be. A Christian is someone who has had a personal born-again experience by asking God to forgive them of their sins believing that Jesus Christ, the Son of God, took the punishment for their sins to make them right with God.
Let's say, for discussion sake, that I am an unsaved pro-choicer. Ok, say I am very active in the pro-choice movement. Someone shares the gospel of Jesus with me and I accept it, repent, ask forgiveness and am born-again. If I go out tomorrow and rally with the pro-choicers that would not mean I am not a Christian. I was not made perfect when I accepted Christ so I may still do things that are not pleasing to God. However, I don't believe a truely born-again person will continue to be a pro-choicer. I believe the Holy Spirit within them would convict them to the point that they would know that abortion is very wrong. So my answer to your question is yes, they can be a *true* Christian and a pro-choicer but God will remind them constantly that is not the correct choice.
PS....I happened to be pro-life even before I was born-again so it wasn't a problem for me. :-) Even as a non-Christian I never understood how someone could make the choice to kill a baby!

[Bikn4God]

No offense... but your statement contradicts itself...

You said, "Ok, say I am very active in the pro-choice movement. Someone shares the gospel of Jesus with me and I accept it, repent, ask forgiveness and am born-again. If I go out tomorrow and rally with the pro-choicers that would not mean I am not a Christian. "

A pro-choice individual can indeed be "saved". No doubt there in my mind whatsoever. But if a person is saved, why would he/she want to participate in an event that is an abomination to God? You yourself are making a claim that you do not approve of abortion because it "kills babies". Then if that is your stance, why would you participate in a Pro-Choice rally?

The Apostle Paul said, "Shall we sin, that grace may abound? God forbid! "

If a person proclaiming to be a Christian willfully supports a movement that condones the killing of unborn children, I sincerely doubt that person is truly saved to begin with.

CJ
SFFS

[Rylee]

If you were truly saved, I believe that God would wipe the desire out of your heart to attend the pro-choice rally. How can you be saved, and then defend killing children at the same time?

[sisterinJesus]

No offense... but your statement contradicts itself...

You said, "Ok, say I am very active in the pro-choice movement. Someone shares the gospel of Jesus with me and I accept it, repent, ask forgiveness and am born-again. If I go out tomorrow and rally with the pro-choicers that would not mean I am not a Christian. "

A pro-choice individual can indeed be "saved". No doubt there in my mind whatsoever. But if a person is saved, why would he/she want to participate in an event that is an abomination to God? You yourself are making a claim that you do not approve of abortion because it "kills babies". Then if that is your stance, why would you participate in a Pro-Choice rally?

The Apostle Paul said, "Shall we sin, that grace may abound? God forbid! "

If a person proclaiming to be a Christian willfully supports a movement that condones the killing of unborn children, I sincerely doubt that person is truly saved to begin with.

CJ
SFFS

Hi CJ, If you will read my reply again I believe I said "for discussions sake"..the story was hypothetical...I was NOT talking about me :-) but the fact that it would be possible for someone to be a Christian and still (through ignorance) participate in something that was not pleasing to God. We don't become instantly 'perfect' when we are saved.
I have a habit of telling stories in 'first person', I find that a person feels less intimidated or condemned if I use 'me' as an example. Does that make sense?:LOL Just like when I witness to someone about Jesus, I tell them my story, about my sins and my need for Christ instead of condemning them, that is God's job to convict, not mine. I haven't found anyone yet that could not relate to my story.

Yes I agree with you, why would someone want to be involved with that, but I do know that when we are saved that doesn't mean that all of our old habits are instantly gone. I'm not sure that overnight a pro-choice person would realize what they were doing was wrong. There is an instant change when we are save, that makes us want to do things God's way instead of our way, but I think we learn what God's ways are by reading His Word and that comes with time and the conviction from the Holy Spirit. I'm sure we could all name something that took awhile for God to change, be it bad language, anger, jealousy, envy...and He continues to change us as we grow in Him.

Rylee's question, unless I misunderstood, was can a person be a true christian and be pro-choice. I still say yes because being a true christian has nothing to do with whether we are good or bad or do the right or wrong things, it's all about grace. I would say, however, if there isn't a change in their life and they don't change from a pro-choice to pro-life, than they need to seriously consider if their salvation was truely a born-again experience. Did that clear that up for you? I hope so. :-)

[sisterinJesus]

If you were truly saved, I believe that God would wipe the desire out of your heart to attend the pro-choice rally. How can you be saved, and then defend killing children at the same time?

He would, sometimes He does that instantly...sometimes it takes time...please read my reply to CJ :-)

[Rylee]

I see what you're saying, but I just can't understand how somebody could be pro-choice and Christian, and I see that you feel that way as well. Thanks for replying.

[Genesis51]

abortion = industrialised mass murder of babies. An animal has far more rights than an unborn child under twisted Western laws.

That's my take

[Rylee]

abortion = industrialised mass murder of babies.

Let me slightly edit your post.
abortion = LEGALIZED industrialized mass murder of babies.
That makes it so much sicker, because people assume that since it's legal, it's okay.
Did you know that "Jane Roe" (a.k.a. Norma McCorvey from Roe vs. Wade) no longer supports the right to have an abortion? She says that if she could do it all over again, she wouldn't have done it all.

[SemperReformanda]

I think it depends on how you define pro-choice. If you define it as the mass killing of babies for the sake of convenience then i agree w/ sisterInJesus. God will bring you to the knowledge of the wrongness of that and change your heart in His Sanctifying process.

However, I've found that often prolife vs prochoice means NEVER allowing a baby to die.
I believe scripture teaches that all life is valuable. Babies are to be valued as being created in the likeness of God. We should not take that lightly. I disagree that their lives are MORE valuable than anyone elses and should be saved at any cost.

Let me give an example hopefully to illustrate what i mean.
My friend and his wife got pregnate. Well actually just she did, he was not infact pregnate :). They were stoked to be having a baby, they had been looking foreward to ths for quite some time and were not looking at it as an inconvenience.
But she began havign problems and (now this is how the problem was explained to me. I dont know much about the innerworkings of the female reproductive system so if any of you doctors wanna correct termanology, have at it :) ) apparently when a child is first concieved it has to travel down some tube to get to the womb where it developes. However it had gotten caught in that tube and as it was growing would eventually kill both the baby and the mother.
In a case like this i believe it does become a choice. If the couple is married the choice ultimately would fall on the father who has been given the responsability by God to take care of both his wife and children.

Both lives are equally highly valuable and should both be treated with the same dignity. Much like in disasters when doctors could possibly save an individuals life, but the time it would take to do so would cost 2 or 3 lives of others who are critical but not requiring quite as much time in treating. Its a difficult choice but sometimes we must choose one life over another. In these situations i dont see anywhere in scripture it taught that the baby's life is more valuable than the mothers.

[SirLaffalot aka CarltonRoss]

With the Biblical admonition in Leviticus so strongly and strictly prohibiting abortion, how can one embrace pro-choice and claim to be a Christian? God made His will so clear on that issue, there should be no question, yet many that support abortion claim to be Christian.

This is a controversial and volatile issue, yet if one would claim to be a Christian, one must abide by Christian principles and abortion simply has no place on the Christian table or in the Christian life, pure and simple.

[SirLaffalot aka CarltonRoss]

I agree with your logic, but refer you to another question posed by Paul: "How can we, called by the name of Jesus, continue to live in sin?" If a pro-choice supporter got saved, truly born again, God's word, God's will and God's way would prevail in one's life and any sinful activity must, out of necessity, cease. That may not be immediate, since some newborn believers take a while to learn God's word, will and way, but given time, a believer must commit his/her way to God or forfeit the claim to salvation in the blood of the Lamb.

[SirLaffalot aka CarltonRoss]

What you're referring to is a "tubal implantation" and does occur occasionally, but this is not a true "abortion" for convenience as defined by the "pro-choice" movement. Pro-choice supports abortion on demand for the convenience of the mother who does not want to carry the baby to full term, whereas the scenario you describe is an emergency procedure to save the mother, since the baby is lost in any case.

[Bikn4God]

SirLaff..

Agree.

CJ
SFFS

[grateful]

Does anybody think that you can *truly* be pro-choice and Christian at the same time? I personally don't, but I just wanted to know everybody's thoughts and opinions.
Thanks for reading/responding! :-D
Rylee, I think we all face the question of choice in every aspect of our walk with the Lord. It has always been about choice.
God says in Deutronomy 30: 19
I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, [that] I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:

I believe that the issue of abortion will always be about choice regardless of whose side you are on, just as some christians and non christians choose to steal, lie, hate and commit other sins, the sin of willingly killing an unborn baby just because he/she would not fit inot your current plans is a choice many have taken. I have also heard of christians who have choosen to take other people's lives in an effort to stop these killings of unborn babies.
It is very easy to get out of of balance when we stop looking unto the Lord and start playing "us" against "them"
Most times it is the sin of immorality that breeds abortion cases, personally I think we should pray more than we pickett and maybe we should send more prayers up on the issue of immorality.

2Cor10:3
For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war after the flesh:


2Cr 10:4 (For the weapons of our warfare [are] not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds;)


2Cr 10:5 Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ;

It is my prayer that more people will choose to save the lives of these babies but at the end it is all going to be about choice.
Just a different angle to the question :)

[Rylee]

The question wasn't about what the world feels, but rather how about Christians feel. I hope that you are wrong as far as the issue that people will always be able to choose whether or not to kill the unborn. If we keep working and praying, maybe we can change the fate of the unborn. Also, it's not playing "us" against "them". It's us fighting to keep the unborn alive. The pro-choicers are the ones who are actually the ones who are pitting people against each other.
Anyhow, back to the root question: it IS about choice, but I don't see how a true Christian can make the choice of choosing to kill an unborn baby.

[grateful]

I am sorry if my post was a deviation from your question but permit me to do it one last time. Choice will always be there whether you are choosing to commit adultery, fornication, lie, gossip or commit abortion and I am talking about christians. yes, Rylee christians commit abortions too. The laws of life are already in the bible but christians still make choices to disobey everyday. That is why there's forgiveness, we are humans and God is faithful to forgive us when we repent and ask Him.
Sin is sin no matter what it is and it is offensive to God. ...Let Him that is without sin cast the first stone...
Christ came that we may have life and have it more abundantly. This life that Christ gave is available even to the vilest sinner, abortionist, murderers, liars... all manner of evil doers can have redemption through Jesus.
It is my prayer that many more will come to know God through Jesus, that is the only cure for sin and even then, its a daily walk and sometimes we fall but He never leaves us.
I just had to say that.
In Christ
grateful

[Rylee]

Christ came that we may have life and have it more abundantly. This life that Christ gave is available even to the vilest sinner, abortionist, murderers, liars... all manner of evil doers can have redemption through Jesus.
It is my prayer that many more will come to know God through Jesus, that is the only cure for sin and even then, its a daily walk and sometimes we fall but He never leaves us.
I just had to say that.
In Christ
grateful

:tu Many of us don't agree on different things, but I'm sure that this is one thing that we can ALL agree on! :)

[Naomi1]

Hi Rylee
I would say many people profess to be christians but deny the power there of. Many people say they believe in Jesus and so they call themselves christians, but you would never know, by how they live their life's.
While others look immaculate on the outside, but are spiritually dead on the inside. Thank God HE sees past the layers of the outer garments.
Here are some scripture verses
you'll fine helpful
GOD Bless
Naomi
Matthew 7:21 Not everyone who says to me Lord Lord shall enter the Kindom of heaven.
Matthew 18:3 Assuredly, I say to you, unless you are converted and become as little children, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven.

[db14]

For abortion in general i believe it is wrong except in very very specific circumstances. If the women would die as a result of having the baby, and the baby would also not survive, then abortion is acceptable. But i think there is no question of being pro-choice. You cannot be pro-choice without taking away someone else's right to life. Which is more important, the right to do as you wish, or the right to life? Life is by far the more important thing, so i cannot see how anyone would value their own wants above a life.

I also believe that abortion because you do not want a child is totally despicable. If you are not responsible enough to cope with having a child, then you shouldn't be having sex, even if you do use protection.

[db14]

An additional point to my last post - my mum said a friend of her's (who was christian) had an abortion because the baby was developing without a brain. Therefore, she would have to go through all the pain of childbirth, and the baby might survive for a second or two, but then would certainly die, and it would be worse that way. My opiinion is that in these circumstances it is acceptable - but people who have abortions because their child will be disabled, that is wrong.

[JasonR66]

I believe you can be. It all comes back to free-will. We all have free-will. It isn't exactly explained as "free-will" in the Bible but the ideology of it is still the same. We all have choices to make in life. God has given us the ability to make any decision we desire for any number of situations. This is a gift from God. A gift, but can be a curse if miss-used.

As for the abortion issue, no Christian should agree with the act of it. Just like no Christian should be ok with any form of death. I guess it wouldn't be a death of anything if you don't think that fetus is a baby yet but if that fetus were to go through the motions any normal fetus would it would, God willing, be a normal, full-born baby. So, in my opinion, abortion is stoping life from occuring, or to make it blunt killing it.

But, we all have no right to take away any gift God has given us. This includes free-will and the right to choose. I guess what bothers many Christians is the fact that so many people are completely fine with the act of abortion when it is, in all actuality, wrong. Rest assured, the consequences for the act of abortion may not be seen in this world but the act will have to be answered for some day.

So, there you have it. That's how I feel.

[RoMan838]

Hi, Jason. I agree (mostly) with sisterinJesus (see above). I don't think that becoming a Christian makes you instantly perfect in your thoughts and actions, neithe rdoes it make you an instant Bible scholar - these things take time. As for "free will", I vote to use mine to seek out God's will. Thanks for posting. I hope to see your words again.

[JasonR66]

Hmmm, I've read what sisterinJesus said. There is some truth to it, but her end isn't exactly what I would come to. But I do believe that we are not instantly perfect. We will never be risen to the stature of perfect. And no it does not make us an instant Bible scholar. You have to work for both of these to be even remotely close to being fully actualized. And I do believe that we should use our will to try to act in a way that we feel God's will would act. That's why we are to try to act like Jesus would. But to take away someone's choice in any matter of their life is not justified in any way. A person's will not only gives a person intent but also controls reasoning and rationality. If your will is misused in any way that is a problem, no doubt. But it is still your will. It was given to you by God to be used to serve and glorify Him. But with that will comes a choice. A choice to use that will as it was intended or to use it in a flawed, twisted way. How you use it is up to you. It is up to you because God allows it to be up to you (otherwise we'd all be angels or something of that sort). To force someone's will to be limited is to, in a sense, take away how that will was initially intended to be used as well. It was given to us to allow choices and decisions to be made. We have no justification in taking that will away. Only God does.

So, in short, the act of abortion is wrong, no doubt, but taking away the choice to abort or not to abort is also wrong.

[Rylee]

But to take away someone's choice in any matter of their life is not justified in any way.

You say "their life", but you seem to forget that its the baby's life that is affected most by the decision to abort.

To force someone's will to be limited is to, in a sense, take away how that will was initially intended to be used as well. It was given to us to allow choices and decisions to be made. We have no justification in taking that will away. Only God does.

So, in short, the act of abortion is wrong, no doubt, but taking away the choice to abort or not to abort is also wrong.

...so you're pro-choice. If you say you're not, then your last sentence doesn't make any sense, because you believe that the woman should have the choice whether or not to abort her child. That's interesting.

[JasonR66]

I do understand that it is the baby's life that is affected the most and unfortunately for those that would abort that issue is of no concern. When I say it is up to the person's will or the choice they make I do so in a very objective way.

You see, I am pro-choice but not because I agree with abortion. Far from it. The actual act of aborting a baby to me seems very irresponsible and irrational. I would never condone the act of it for myself. However, that is the choice I've made on the matter. I used my free-will to come to that conclusion. I believe it to be the right one but that does not mean that what I see to be right is everyone else's version of what is right. I am no judge of the human people. I cannot take away anyone's right to choose to be anything they choose to be or the course of action they choose to take. If someone chooses to abort, I don't have any right to take away that decision and condemn it and them as being wrong for I am no judge. Their is only one lawgiver and one judge and I am not Him.

[Rylee]

You have no right to take away their decision. I understand that. But, by the same token, they don't have any right to destroy the life of their unborn child.

[JasonR66]

What this all comes down to is is that baby a baby or not. What my opinion on the matter is and your opinion on the matter is just that, an opinion. We feel it to be right and, for many reasons, it can be said as being true. But it is still an opinion of a grey area of life (no pun intended). Many would argue that that fetus that can be aborted it just a blueprint, potentiallity, of what a baby could be but is not full actualitzed as being a baby yet. What we feel on the matter is not the issue. The issue is should we force our ideology that we gained from our decision that that fetus is a baby on others in the name of God. I don't think we should for many reasons; we are not judges of humanity and thus have no right, decisions to act in a Christian manner come from knowledge and experience and your relationship with God, not from forced ideology and theology (look at the Crusades for example). The decisions and ideology you, I, and/or any/everyone else have is our own. We cannot force it on anyone else.

I do feel terrible for those babies that could not live their lives. I don't say these things to be rude or appear to not care. I say these things because I wish to stay objective when dealing with the situation. I feel a Christian must have a fair balance of objectivity and subjectivity. I feel I must be objective here.

[Rylee]

If there is uncertainty about whether or not it is a baby or not, then we should take the precaution to serve its life, just in case, right? See, that's why our court systems are set up the way they are. Innocent until proven guilty, just in case the person being accused is innocent. It should be the same way with the baby, even if it's not a baby. However, there really isn't any uncertainty - overwhelmingly, scientists (not pro-life scientists, but unbiased scientests) believe that human life begins at conception... conception is the moment when the egg is fertilized by the sperm, bringing into existence the zygote, which is a genetically distinct individual -- I have a source for that definition if you'd like it.

Dr. Alfred M. Bongioanni, professor of pediatrics and obstetrics at the University of Pennsylvania:
"I have learned from my earliest medical education that human life begins at the time of conception.... I submit that human life is present throughout this entire sequence from conception to adulthood and that any interruption at any point throughout this time constitutes as a termination of human life. I am no more prepared to say that these early stages would represent an incomplete human being than I would be to say that the child prior to te dramatic stages of puberty is not a human being. This is human life at every stage."

Professor Hymie Gordon, Mayo Clinic:
"By all the critera of modern molecular biology, life is present at the moment of contraception."

Ashley Montague, a geneticist and professor at Harvard and Rutgers, is an avid pro-choicer. Yet, he states:
"The basic fact is simple: life begins not at birth, but conception."

Also, every part in your body has the same genetics as every other part of your body. You are one person. Yet, the unborn child's genetics are different. How can that be if it's not its own seperate person?

So, it's not just 'what I feel', but rather, it's what IS... the facts.

Dr. Thomas Hilgers says it best:
"No individual living body can 'become' a person unless it is already a person. No living thing can become anything other than what it already essentially is."

So, we've defined that the baby is, in fact, a person, right? Well, let me get to your "blueprint" comment... blueprints are not houses, nor do they become houses no matter how long we care to wait, because by nature they are something else. But while the blueprint in no sense becomes the house, a fetus does grow in to a fully developed child. The definition of personhood: membership in the human species, not by the stage of development within the species.

So, we've made it clear that this is a person. Now, let's get back to the root of this: one of the ten commandments is, "Thou shalt not kill." So, is it okay to just ignore this commandment? I'm thinking no, wouldn't you agree?

I look forward to hearing back from you.

[db14]

I agree. A foetus is a living person. Now especially with resusication and the excellent advances in medicine and technology babies can survive at really young ages. I think that at the least the age limit should be lowered for abortions, i think it is 24 weeks now, in the UK anyway, it should be lowered because a baby can survive born at that age and younger.

[sisterinJesus]

What this all comes down to is is that baby a baby or not. What my opinion on the matter is and your opinion on the matter is just that, an opinion. We feel it to be right and, for many reasons, it can be said as being true. But it is still an opinion of a grey area of life (no pun intended). Many would argue that that fetus that can be aborted it just a blueprint, potentiallity, of what a baby could be but is not full actualitzed as being a baby yet. What we feel on the matter is not the issue. The issue is should we force our ideology that we gained from our decision that that fetus is a baby on others in the name of God. I don't think we should for many reasons; we are not judges of humanity and thus have no right, decisions to act in a Christian manner come from knowledge and experience and your relationship with God, not from forced ideology and theology (look at the Crusades for example). The decisions and ideology you, I, and/or any/everyone else have is our own. We cannot force it on anyone else.

I do feel terrible for those babies that could not live their lives. I don't say these things to be rude or appear to not care. I say these things because I wish to stay objective when dealing with the situation. I feel a Christian must have a fair balance of objectivity and subjectivity. I feel I must be objective here.

My opinion here is not said with malice toward you at all. I think you are really struggling with this issue of abortion.

I feel we have to be the voice for the unborn babies that can not speak for themselves. If we could ask those babies....do you want to die or would you like a chance at life? What do you think they would say??
Christians on this earth are God's instruments...we are the voice of God on earth. We must speak out against such senseless killings.

I have not found any scriptures yet in the Bible that says it is ok to abort a child, to kill an unborn child.

And we do have every right to impose our beliefs on non-Christians. Where do you think our laws came from? Do not murder, do not steal, etc...the laws we live by came from God. God used people to implement His laws.

One thing I don't understand in this country - Society has accepted the killing of unborn babies...but if they see a news article that tells of a parent killing their 2 year old child..then this county is flabbergasted! "Oh my, how could anyone be so cruel and heartless" they say. What makes that unborn baby any less precious than the 2 year old who was brutally killed by the parent?

Do you know anyone that has had an abortion? I do, people very near and dear to me. People that have since then given their lives to Christ.
They tell me that most of those you see rallying pro-choice, they have never experienced that or they would NOT be pro-choice. It is something that haunts a woman for the rest of her life...only Christ can take the pain away.

I understand that you think a womans right to choose should not be taken away but what about that child's right to live...doesn't he/she have any rights. Children should not be blamed or killed because of their parent's sin!!

A fetus is an unborn child, a human being. Life begins at the moment of conception.
Day 22 – heart begins to beat with the child’s own blood, often a different type than the mother’s.

[Rylee]

I understand that you think a womans right to choose should not be taken away but what about that child's right to live...doesn't he/she have any rights. Children should not be blamed or killed because of their parent's sin!!

I'm so glad that you brought this up, sister. People forget that we are talking about two people's rights here, not just one person. And the person who makes the decision (the mother) doesn't have her life on the line! What gives her the right to choose whether or not to kill a baby (whether or not it's her baby, it's still a baby, and it's still murder)? The argument "It's the woman's choice." is incredibly invalid. It's crazy to give people the choice whether or not to murder innocent children. If you had a child that was acting up, and you decided to murder him/her, I'm guessing, by a pro-choicers standards, that would be alright too. That is what they're standing up for. Right-to-murder.

[sisterinJesus]

Rylee, I thought I would post this chart I found online. I don't know how anyone could say that a fetus is not a living, growing human being.
Sometimes the thought of it brings me to tears. I truely believe abortion breaks God's heart.
The babies have no voice in it, we must be their voice!

Diary of an Unborn Baby

• Day 1 – fertilization: all human chromosomes are present; unique human life begins

• Day 6 – embryo begins implanting in the uterus

• Day 22 – heart begins to beat with the child’s own blood, often a different type than the mother’s

• Week 5 – eyes, legs, hands begin to develop

• Week 6 – brain waves detectable; mouth, lips present; fingernails forming

• Week 7 – eyelids, toes form; nose distinct, baby kicking and swimming

• Week 8 – every organ in place; bones begin to replace cartilage, fingerprints begin to form;

• Weeks 9 and 10 - teeth begin to form, fingernails develop; baby can turn head, frown

• Week 11 – baby can grasp objects placed in hand; all organ systems functioning; the baby has fingerprints, a skeletal structure, nerves, and circulation

• Week 12 – the baby has all of the part necessary to experience pain, including the nerves, spinal cord and thalamus; the baby is nearing the end of the first trimester

• Week 17 - baby can have dream (REM) sleep

• Week 20 – the earliest stage at which partial birth abortions are performed


http://www.nrlc.org/abortion/facts/fetusdevelopment.html

[sisterinJesus]

Rylee, I am on another forum and we have discussed abortion. Recently someone brought up the fact that doctors are now finding out that birth control pills cause abortions. I always was under the impression that the pills caused a woman not to ovulate and therefore no egg is produced and could not be fertilized.
Reading about this really caused me to grieve. If the information has any truth to it, it says women on birth control pills could be aborting up to 12 times a year through ignorance. Since I was on birth control pills for 4 years before I became a Christian...I wonder how many babies I have killed!! I have asked God to forgive me if this is true.
In the light of these new studies, I think all Christian women should take a hard look at using birth control pills and do some indepth study on the subject.

http://www.prolife.com/BIRTHCNT.html

[Rylee]

Thank you very much sister. :)

[Godsent]

Rylee,

I'm glad you take the side of babies.

I have always gone by this : God said, "Before you were in the womb, I knew you..."

That means we either existed where God is at one time, or we were a thought in God's mind. Regardless, He knew us. We were alive either in person or in the thoughts of God.

To terminate a pregnancy is killing a human being. Plain and simple. And it horrifies me that a Christian could conceive of such a thing and still call themselves a Christian.

Although I have not picketed abortion clinics, I have been involved in "protesting" abortion through other channels. Politicians and judges do not hear the screams and cries of protestors from their gated communities and guarded work buildings. ( Unless millions of Christians took to the streets and the voting booths, then we'd be heard! ) So we have to hit them in other areas where it hurts.

I believe that life is sacred to God. I understand that in time of war, human lives are lost, but war is a different matter. But to blatently murder a child who is incapable of defending themselves, offering resistance, or speaking against what is being done to them, is an unspeakable act.

There are millions of children ( Yes, Hilliary Clinton, I call them children ) being run through the abortion mills annually. It is a blight on this country, and it will bring down the anger of God on us for it.

My final thought...

It amazes me that when the Danes published a cartoon caracature of Mohammed, that the Muslims found offensive, that the Muslims hit the streets in anger and rioting. An offense to their "prophet" set off this kind of emotional fury. But when children are being butchered in American doctors offices under the guise of the "law", there is little apparent outrage in the streets by Christians.

Also... Hollywood produces movies each year that are total filth. They blaspheme our Lord's name every other word and trash the very person of Jesus Christ. Jesus is the person who saved us from hell, but Christians are not shaking their fists in anger against Hollywood one bit. No, they go out and spend money at the movies or Blockbuster and watch that garbage, all the while putting money in the pockets of these deviants who trash the name of our Lord.

If Christians would get off their "blessed assurances", quit whining, get angry, and take control of this country again, we'd receive the blessings from God. I really do believe that.

Thank you.

CJ
SFFS
Amen bikn amen...having had the Holy Spirit start speaking through me more often i can easily sense Him speaking through u and the words of truth that u spoke here is amazing and may the Lord really bless you for those words.
If Christians would get off their "blessed assurances", quit whining, get angry, and take control of this country again, we'd receive the blessings from God. I really do believe that.
That is so true, God gave us one life here on earth we need to witness while were hear and some people may not be able to hear the word again but by us we need not rob God of a chance to present the word to others. He told us "be ye fishers of men" we should do so and let our love of Christ shine through us. We need to stand up for our christain beliefs and bury our selves in his word and rebuke the devil with Gods help and really relinquish the way this world is turning out. So i totally agree with u man... :)

[Word]

Does anybody think that you can *truly* be pro-choice and Christian at the same time? I personally don't, but I just wanted to know everybody's thoughts and opinions.
Thanks for reading/responding! :-D

I haven't read what everyone else has written so if anyone has stated the same, I agree with them.

GOD is PRO-CHOICE, so am I and I'm a Christian.
God also sets before us the chioce of Life and Blessings or Death and Cursing and he tells us to chose LIFE.

So when you don't chose LIFE that is when you've crossed the line and are no longer a Christian because JESUS is the LIFE and when you deny LIFE you deny CHRIST and you don't! DON'T waht to do that.

Whatever you do unto the least of my breathern, you do unto to me, says OUR LORD. :c

[Rylee]

GOD is PRO-CHOICE, so am I and I'm a Christian.

I'm sure Word of God meant to write God is Pro-LIFE. ;)

If not, he is sadly mistaken and shouldn't imply that God promotes the women's right to have an abortion.

[Word]

I'm sure Word of God meant to write God is Pro-LIFE. ;)

If not, he is sadly mistaken and shouldn't imply that God promotes the women's right to have an abortion.

What I mean is God is both Pro-Choice and Pro-Life but you must chose Pro-Life to be Christian.:) Hope that is clear enough. God gives us the freedom of choice.-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[Rylee]

Okay, I understand what you're trying to say. The phrase Pro-choice has a stigma attached to it, and I got a little uptight when I saw "God" and "Pro-choice" in the same phrase. :) No worries, I gotcha now. :tu

[JasonR66]

Hmmm, I still see all of these quotes as a matter of opinion. I really doubt there will be an absolute truth to this at all. Look at it this way, when you kill a normal human being, it becomes a black and white issue. You either killed something that we all know is a real human or you didn't. The issue of a fetus is not so black and white. These doctors and geneticist are voicing their opinions on the matter. Granted, an educated opinion, but an opinion none the less.

This all brings me back to do we feel it is alright to force our beliefs, ideology, and morality on others. As sad as it is to say, I don't think we have the right plus I truly don't think it would be in the best interest to those who are not Christian. We could educate others on how we feel about the issue but to force it is not the answer. Forcing anything will just make the opposition feel the need to act more and more upon what they believe.

When I say I'm a pro-choice Christian I use that term very loosely. I have many of the same beliefs someone who is pro-life would have. I too think that fetus is a human being because I believe it has a soul at conception. I don't agree with the act of abortion at any point for any reason or circumstance. But I'm pro-CHOICE because I don't believe somebody's right to choose in an area that is very grey (no matter the quotes one gets the quotes are still, generally, opinions unless backed up by some medical proof and not medical opinion or ideology) should be taken away.

And what I've always found interesting is, if abortion were banned, does that mean abortion would stop? I truly doubt it. It may become frowned upon but it wouldn't stop. We live in an imperfect world with imperfect situations and imperfect outcomes for we all sin and our will is not God's will, no matter how hard we try to make it seem that way.

[JasonR66]

(pretend like this was added to the end of the second paragraph)

Sort of like if you tell a kid not to press a button they will want press it even more. If you force abortion to be banned, I would bet my life the amount of abortions would rise. Teach on the issue, don't judge, condemn, and take away the decisions they have to make. Make it clear to others why the fetus is a baby, don't force them to believe it is a baby. I guess that is the issue I have with pro-life. Intent is the issue. The idea I get from those who are pro-life is that "abortion is murder, it's absolute truth, so you all who disagree are absolutely wrong and have to stop murdering babies". Murder is a relative term when it comes to a fetus. A matter of opinion (as proven by the quotes you provided). A matter of ideology and morality that comes from one's opinions. Who is to say that we are absolutely right for thinking a fetus is a baby? To be absolutely right requires absolute knowledge. I've never meet a human who has absolute knowledge so they can't be absolutely right. What I'm trying to get at here is forcing ideology with the intent of saving children still comes back to forcing ideology. You can't force someone to get off of drugs, they have to get off of them themselves for their own reasons. You can't force a child to learn, they have to have the will to learn. You can't force someone to think abortion is wrong, they have to learn, understand, and fully realize that abortion is wrong on their own.

[Tamara224]

(pretend like this was added to the end of the second paragraph)

Sort of like if you tell a kid not to press a button they will want press it even more. If you force abortion to be banned, I would bet my life the amount of abortions would rise. Teach on the issue, don't judge, condemn, and take away the decisions they have to make.

Jason, I have to disagree and say that I think your reasoning is unsound. Making something illegal does not automatically result in increased desire to committ the illegal act. Do you think that since murder is illegal more people have committed murder? I agree that the 'forbidden fruit' concept is true in some instances. People might be more prone to commit certain 'forbidden' acts just because they are forbidden. But not in this case. Do you honestly think that more women/girls are going to go out and get pregnant just so they can get an illegal abortion? Or pregnant girls are going to say to themselves, "Lets see, I don't know for sure if I want to have this baby. How will I decide? Oh, abortion's illegal - well, that decides it, I'm going to have an abortion, because it's illegal. Ooooh, this will be fun, cuz it's not allowed. I hope I don't get caught!"

The fact that abortion is legal means that abortion is more available. That is the deciding factor to many women/girls. Availability, not legality. To suggest that the 'forbidden fruit' has anything to do with the rationale of abortion, is really quite absurd, in my opinion. Abortion is attractive to women because they have been deceived into believing it is a free ticket out of an 'undesirable' situation. Abortion will be less attractive to women if it is less available and if the immediate risks to themselves outweigh the immediate gain. I have no doubt that making abortion illegal would result in a number of illegal back-alley abortions. However, the motivation for getting an abortion remains the same: that the woman desires to not have a baby. Abortion does not become more 'attractive' if it is illegal. The motivation is the same - sin without consequences (that is the lie). Abortion becomes less attractive if it is illegal because then a woman who wants to escape the 'undesirable' situation must risk her life to get an unsterile back-alley abortion, if she can even find someone to perform it.

Finally, your whole concept about not being able to force our ideologies onto another person is flawed, in my opinion. Obviously, we cannot force our ideology onto another person. And I mean 'cannot' - in other words, even if we try we won't be able to do it. However, when a majority in a democracy decides to make laws that enforce morality - that is not forcing an ideology. That is saying that the majority shares one ideology and we, as a majority, will enforce it. All of our laws are enforced morality. We as a society have the right and the obligation to decide to make and enforce laws. Otherwise, we have anarchy. Further, we as Christians have the right and the obligation to state, emphatically and without qualification, that there is an absolute Truth, an absolute Right and Wrong.

Matthew 5: 13-16
"You are the salt of the earth; but if the salt has become tasteless, how can it be made salty again? It is no longer good for anything, except to be thrown out and trampled under foot by men.
"You are the light of the world. A city set on a hill cannot be hidden;

nor does anyone light a lamp and put it under a basket, but on the lampstand, and it gives light to all who are in the house.

"Let your light shine before men in such a way that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father who is in heaven.

We have an obligation to shine the light and to be 'salty'. If we shut up and act like we can't correct others, we have lost our saltiness and hidden our light under a basket, in my opinion.

[RoMan838]

I am pro-life, but I think that a pro-choice individual might be Christian (just wrong). Let's agree that the pro-choicer is wrong, but let's not "throw the baby out with the bathwater", for to say that such an individual is not a follower of Christ condemns them to death. We are all sinners in need of correction, so let's exhort them if it is our calling and then forgive them as Christ taught us.

Matthew 12:31 “Therefore I say to you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven men.

[JasonR66]

Well, I guess we just look at things differently. I respect what you have to say but I disagree.

[Rufus]

"Murder is a relative term when it comes to a fetus. A matter of opinion (as proven by the quotes you provided). A matter of ideology and morality that comes from one's opinions. Who is to say that we are absolutely right for thinking a fetus is a baby?"

Definition of "baby" according to dictionary.com:
A very young child; an infant.
An unborn child; a fetus.

There is nothing more innocent in humanity than a baby and to interfere with what God has created is murder.

"Listen, O isles, unto me; and hearken, ye people, from far; The LORD hath called me from the womb; from the bowels of my mother hath he made mention of my name." Isaiah 49:1

"And now, saith the LORD that formed me from the womb to be his servant" - Isaiah 49:5a

When an abortion is performed a creation of God has been terminated.

If God's words are insufficient (perish the thought) then review 4d imaging pictures of babies in the womb smiling and sleeping. It is life, simply in an early stage of growth. It is inconsistent for us to punish parents for killing their children at 1 day old but giving them a pass if it is done inside the womb.

In 1972 prior to Roe v Wade their were 28 deaths reported from abortions. Since Roe v Wade America has killed over 40 million children. This is twice the number of people killed by Joseph Stalin and 6.5 times the number of Jews Hitler was credited with killing and these babies feel pain.

"The neural pathways are present for pain to be experienced quite early by unborn babies." - Dr. Steven Calvin

If we were to take a death row prisoner and use a sharp-edged instrument to cut and tear his body to pieces this would rightfully be considered cruel and inhumane. However, it's okay when it's a baby...?

"The most common methods used to abort unborn babies at 20 weeks gestation or more involve sharp-edged instruments to cut, tear and twist the baby's body into pieces, which are extracted from the womb. In a partial-birth abortion, the unborn baby is delivered feet first, except for the head, which is punctured at the base of the skull with a sharp object. The brains are then suctioned out, killing the child." - MCCL

Christians should feel compelled to speak out on these atrocities and not be seduced by moral relativism in justifying murder.

[sisterinJesus]

ACLJ Gets Pro-Life Victory at Supreme Court

In a unanimous decision, the Supreme Court today ruled in favor of pro-life demonstrators bringing an end to a nearly 20-year-old legal marathon. The ACLJ served as Counsel of Record for one of the pro-life organizations in this important case.

http://www.aclj.org/

[JasonR66]

That is still a matter of opinion. I'm not saying the fetus can or can not be a baby. I am offering different opinions. No matter how you spin it, it is a matter of opinion none the less.

It all comes back to how much or little do we feel one should force one's ideology. Whether it be to teach, witness, or to force. I don't feel like the right to choose to abort should be taken away. Many feel the same, many don't. It is a matter for the individual to determine. It all depends on where you draw the line between being pushy and being a good Christian. I would speak against abortion and would teach as well as I can against abortion but I would not condone taking it away.

[Rufus]

That is still a matter of opinion. I'm not saying the fetus can or can not be a baby. I am offering different opinions. No matter how you spin it, it is a matter of opinion none the less.

If it is just a matter of opinion then where do opinions stop? Some might say that a 1-day old is not really productive and can't really speak so who's to say it is alive? The Chinese only allow 1 off-spring per family so why not be fair and let a family murder their 1-day old daughter so that they can try for a boy? The Nazis had an opinion that the mentally and physically retarded were not valued members of society so isn't a bit pushy of us to tell them their opinions were wrong?

We are talking about sentient life defined as "the capacity for basic consciousness — the ability to feel or perceive, not necessarily including the faculty of self-awareness." These fetuses are not self-aware (neither is a 1-day old) but it is fact not opinion that they feel pain in the same way that a 1-day old feels pain. They are both alive and both are important to God as God knitted them in the womb. Why is the 1 day old murder and the -1 day old a choice...because of man's opinion?

It all comes back to how much or little do we feel one should force one's ideology.
The difference between a barbaric culture and a civilized one is a civilized society cares for their children. Good and evil exist, right and wrong exist, and the world is black and white. The world of gray in defending peoples "opinions" is the voice of a stranger whispering in your ear.