Question about women ministers/preachers/reverends/etc.

[Rylee]

I was raised by my Grandfather in a Southern Baptist household. He has since passed on, and there are many questions I have for him as I get older, but can no longer ask since he is no longer with me.
There's something that I remember from when I was a little girl that I'd like to ask about. My grandfather used to go to hospitals and pray with the patients there, and I would go along with him (I was always right by my grandpa's side, whether he wanted me there or not :p ). Anyhow, I remember that one time we went in to a lady's room and she was dying. Her daughter was in there too, and my grandfather and her struck up a conversation. She said that she was a minister, which peaked my interest, because being a young child I didn't know that women could be ministers. My grandfather seemed interested as well, so we listened to her talk for a while. After my grandfather prayed with the lady and her mother, we left. In the car, my grandfather told me that women couldn't be ministers or preachers or whatnot. I just said, "Okay." I learned at a young age that if my grandfather said that God says that something is or isn't okay, not to question it, just accept it. As I got older, and after my grandfather died, I've often wondered about this. Could somebody give me some insight, or perhaps some scriptures, about whether or not women can or can't be preachers/ministers/reverends?

[likeadeerpantsforwater]

God never said women cannot be preachers! no offence to your grandad, but i find it despicable that anyone can be so sexist!

My mother is a vicar (Church of England) and she is amazing. So many people tell me that her sermons really help them, and no one who actually knows a women priest can be against them.

Now for the theological debate. In genesis - god made them male and female in his image - we are all made in the image of god. Everyone is equal in his eyes and no one is less suited to preach his word.
Some people say that as Jesus was male, only men can preach his word because they can apparently understand it better and are a more direct link to him! What sexist rubbish!
All his disciples were men, true, but not because of women being in any way inferior, but partly because of the culture of the day.

Who was the one who discovered Jesus had risen? Who accepted it without questioning? Who believed without asking for proof, just believed? The answer - Mary Magdelene (or other women according to the account). In any case, a women.

So whenever anyone says that women cannot be priests, or if you say it, then think, Jesus preached equality and love - if his church cannot accept women, if his followers who preach about God's Love cannot accept that we are all adequate to spread the word, then who can?

[Rylee]

So why won't the Catholic church ordain women? There's got to be some sort of reasoning behind it, besides being sexist.

[likeadeerpantsforwater]

I don't know about the Catholic church - but i do know that the bible never once mentions women not being allowed to be ordained. It is just a tradition really, and nothing more than that. There is no religious reason why women cannot be priests, bishops or whatever!

[Tamara224]

Rylee, you've asked a very controversial and difficult question. I've looked into this a lot in the past for my own edification. I have personally struggled with the concept that women can't be preachers and I've come to the conclusion that, as likeadeer said, God never said women can't be preachers.
I'm not going to go into all I've found right now, because it would take a while. Later tonight, I think I'm going to post parts of a paper I wrote last year about this subject, to spur discussion some more. But I don't have that with me now.

Anyway, I just wanted to say that there are some excellent resources out there for you to continue your search on this issue. Several years ago I stumbled upon a book called: What Paul Really Said About Women, The Apostle's Liberating Views on Equality in Marriage, Leadership, and Love, by John T. Bristow. This book was so helpful to me and has been such a blessing. The author takes many of the passages used by people over the centuries to say women can't be church leaders, and explains how they have been misread and misinterpreted. The author takes a look at the cultural context, the contextual meanings of the original Greek, as well as other passages of scripture. You can get the book for about $10 on Amazon.com. I urge you to check it out!

[romans 8:17]

Hi well explaing those verses on the site.. women in Pauls day were not educated on the scriptures, but many men were from a young age. So women were more likely to fall into the ideas of false teachers. Also in churches back then women and kids sat on one side and men did on the other. women were yelling over to their husbands who knew more about the bible and asking questions. Then paul was like there is no oreder in this so women of this church be silent and learn , ask your husbands at home when you want to know something fo God is a God of order. there were many women leaders in the bible. Deborah Queent of the south Mirian Huldah Phebe Eudia Shynthc ( spelled wrong ) to name a few of an Ester

[Redeemed777]

Rylee im on it
but i could give you a little nugget of what i know
i do remember that scripures say that a woman isnt supposed to speak in the church...
but ill tell you what online you are minestering to others and to me personaly
so....
but i will be studying about it

[Bikn4God]

This one kind of hits close to home. My girlfriend is an ordained Methodist minister. She receives so much flak from the men in her day to day dealings in reference to her qualification to be in the pulpit.

I could, at any time, have ten people telling me she should not be in the pulpit, and ten more telling me that she can. Amazing.

I know of no scriptures that say she cannot preach. If I recall, in the Bible, Deborah took a leadership role. No one really mentions her anymore, do they?

One of the most "taken out of context" scriptures in the Bible is "Women should be silent..." People who make such claims ought to know a little history behind that statement...

In the "church", women sat on one side, men on the other. The problem was that many of the women were questioning their husbands in reference to something that was being said during the services, and it was causing disruption. So Paul advised women to hold their tongues during the service and ask their husbands their questions at home. Plain and simple. But those in certain "denominations" who love to "interpret" everything, rather than read what is being said, has concluded that women are not to: A. Speak in a church. OR B. Teach men. I have no clue how they got that from this scripture, but they did. Go figure.

My girlfriend has been the recipient of intimidation, predjudice, and sexist comments from fellow "pastors" during the time she's been Associate Pastor.
Men who are supposed to be men of God. Hardly.

So I say this... If what a woman says blesses others, and it speaks the truth about the Word of God... preach it. Do I prefer Methodist doctrine? No, not particularly. I'm not a Methodist. But that opinion would be the same if a man was preaching it.

So ladies...as far as I can tell... preach on.

I thank you.

CJ
SFFS

[Rylee]

I appreciate all of the thorough answers I have received and feel that I have a better understanding of the topic. There's still people out there that believe one thing, and those that believe another, but the world will always be that way, so I'll just stick with what the Bible says and leave it at that. :) Thanks for all the help.

[OneJoe]

I was raised by my Grandfather in a Southern Baptist household. He has since passed on, and there are many questions I have for him as I get older, but can no longer ask since he is no longer with me.
There's something that I remember from when I was a little girl that I'd like to ask about. My grandfather used to go to hospitals and pray with the patients there, and I would go along with him (I was always right by my grandpa's side, whether he wanted me there or not :p ). Anyhow, I remember that one time we went in to a lady's room and she was dying. Her daughter was in there too, and my grandfather and her struck up a conversation. She said that she was a minister, which peaked my interest, because being a young child I didn't know that women could be ministers. My grandfather seemed interested as well, so we listened to her talk for a while. After my grandfather prayed with the lady and her mother, we left. In the car, my grandfather told me that women couldn't be ministers or preachers or whatnot. I just said, "Okay." I learned at a young age that if my grandfather said that God says that something is or isn't okay, not to question it, just accept it. As I got older, and after my grandfather died, I've often wondered about this. Could somebody give me some insight, or perhaps some scriptures, about whether or not women can or can't be preachers/ministers/reverends?
1Co 14:34 Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law.
1Co 14:35 And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.

Note: these verses do not say "your women" relating to only that church. For those who say this was only to the Corinthians...lets look at 1 Tim 2:12

1Ti 2:11 Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.
1Ti 2:12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.

Well, this appears to be two books of the bible that mention this. Now since women did in fact teach outside the church building, but there is no proof of a woman teaching in the church or temple, it would appear this is talking about the church service. To say a woman can teach or preach to the congregation contradicts the bible, but to say they can teach outside the church does not contradict the bible since clearly the God fearing women in the bible did this very thing and did a great service to God. Every example I've seen of a woman teaching, was not in the temple or church congregation as we know it.


Rylee, your Grandfather was correct and he did tell you the truth, despite what others say. I certainly can say this time to listen to what your Grandfather taught you. I'm not saying that some women wouldn't know how to lead a congregation, but rather that the bible says they are not to teach in the church. I don't know your grandfather, but he obviously was wise enough he knew the truth. May God bless him and keep him!




2Pe 3:17 Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own steadfastness.
2Pe 3:18 But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and forever. Amen.


Onejoe

[jmj81376]

One of the most "taken out of context" scriptures in the Bible is "Women should be silent..." People who make such claims ought to know a little history behind that statement...

In the "church", women sat on one side, men on the other. The problem was that many of the women were questioning their husbands in reference to something that was being said during the services, and it was causing disruption. So Paul advised women to hold their tongues during the service and ask their husbands their questions at home. Plain and simple. But those in certain "denominations" who love to "interpret" everything, rather than read what is being said, has concluded that women are not to: A. Speak in a church. OR B. Teach men. I have no clue how they got that from this scripture, but they did. Go figure.

Bikn, Thank You! As a matter of fact, we were just discussing the same thing in my bible study tonight. I believe women can minister just as well as men, and sometimes better( in some cases). My pastor's wife can minister just as well to anyone as her husband. They are both very godly people and I'll just say this: I think it is wonderful when God empowers anyone to speak His Word, male or female.

[germanJoy]

Rylee, meditate on the WHOLE SCRIPTURE not just what Onejoe had given here.

First of all, Anna was a prophetess who SPOKE in the temple of God. God commanded a WOMAN to speak in His temple.

2:36. And there was one Anna, a prophetess, the daughter of Phanuel, of the tribe of Aser. She was far advanced in years and had lived with her husband seven years from her virginity.
Et erat Anna prophetissa filia Phanuhel de tribu Aser haec processerat in diebus multis et vixerat cum viro suo annis septem a virginitate sua

2:37. And she was a widow until fourscore and four years: who departed not from the temple, by fastings and prayers serving night and day.
Et haec vidua usque ad annos octoginta quattuor quae non discedebat de templo ieiuniis et obsecrationibus serviens nocte ac die

2:38. Now she, at the same hour, coming in, confessed to the Lord: and spoke of him to all that looked for the redemption of Israel.
Et haec ipsa hora superveniens confitebatur Domino et loquebatur de illo omnibus qui expectabant redemptionem Hierusalem
Luke 2:36-38

Second of all, God calls His daughters (women) TO PROPHESY (declare, teach, preach the Word of God) in the last days.

17
'It will come to pass in the last days,' God says, 'that I will pour out a portion of my spirit upon all flesh. Your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your young men shall see visions, your old men shall dream dreams.


Third of all, this letter of instruction was for a WIFE to SUBMIT herself to her HUSBAND (not teach him). It never said here that a woman is not to teach in the church. Men like Onejoe like taking this verse out of context to justify their doctrine.

2:11. Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.
Mulier in silentio discat cum omni subiectione

2:12. But I suffer not a woman ("wife") to teach, nor to use authority over the man ("husband"): but to be in silence.
Docere autem mulieri non permitto neque dominari in virum sed esse in silentio

2:13. For Adam ("the husband") was first formed; then Eve ("the wife").
Adam enim primus formatus est deinde Eva

I still have more and I can still go on giving you SEVERAL scriptures proving that women are never forbidden by God to lead, to teach, to preach, to prophesy, etc.

[Bikn4God]

Ok...in defense of the lady preachers...

If one will look up the word, "usurp", it means the following :

**To seize and take control without authority and possibly with force; take as one's right or possession.

"there is no proof of a woman teaching in the church or temple..." you say...

Ever meet a female Rabbi? I have. But you can discuss that with the Jews.
Secondly, there is no proof that a woman DIDN'T preach. Also, in those days
there were different customs among the Jews...etc. Just as customs have changed throughout the years. In the 1st Century forward, Bibles were not even given to lay people, but many were written in Latin and only in the possession of priests. Our friend King James of England remedied that for us.

How about some other things that are not present anymore? How about self-flaggellation? Very common during Medievel times.

I am involved with ministering to Wiccans, pagans, and occult groups. If I really wanted to, I could follow a verse from Leviticus... "Suffer not a witch to live..." Guess I'd have to try and kill them according to Malleus Malefacarum, huh? So much for trying to get them saved.

According to some, and I've heard this many times working in prisons, that "according to the Bible", there are to be no interracial marriages because God had told the Israelites not to marry outside of their race. The truth was, they were passing through pagan country, and God did not want the Israelites to marry pagans because they could be swayed towards paganism, and not worship the REAL God. But there are those today that say, "according to scripture" that we cannot marry outside our races. Hogwash! It's amazing how people can turn scripture into anything that suits them.

Did anyone know that the "church" met in homes at one time? To do otherwise invited execution? Nero crucified thousands. And I've heard many people tell me that "home church" is not church. You have to go to a CHURCH building in order for it to be church. That's hogwash too.

This is an issue that can be kicked around over and over. Like I said previously... I've heard 10 people tell me why my girlfriend cannot preach, and 10 more who say she can. Who is right?

So ladies, I say this... if the words that come out of your mouth come from God's word.... preach it. I'm happy to see a woman step up to the plate when a man refuses to!

One final thought... Did anyone know that in most Christian homes the woman is the one leading and encouraging others in the faith? The men do not step up and take charge. And that's sad. So if the men refuse to do it, ladies...keep up the good work!

CJ
SFFS

[Redeemed777]

jesus did say that the woman isnt supposed to speak in the church and since Jesus is God, God is the begining to the end and knows the begining from the end. So when jesus spoke thousand of years ago it didnt just applie to them it applies to us just like our salvation dose
to tell you the truth im not really sure
nothing that preyer and petition and letting your requests be known to God
couldnt answer
but the assention he told the belivers to tell the gospel to everyone to the most utter places

[germanJoy]

jesus did say that the woman isnt supposed to speak in the church
Redeemed777, can you give me the bible verse where Jesus said that one???? It is not found in my bible... do you have a different bible? I remember Paul saying that but not Jesus Christ my Lord. How about yours?

[CheeseKing]

The entire bible is God inspired. The word of God. If Paul was speaking false opinions, then it wouldn't be in the bible. As long as you believe in ALL the bible and its entirety, then I might take that verse into account.

[blueheron32]

Hi well explaing those verses on the site.. women in Pauls day were not educated on the scriptures, but many men were from a young age. So women were more likely to fall into the ideas of false teachers. Also in churches back then women and kids sat on one side and men did on the other. women were yelling over to their husbands who knew more about the bible and asking questions. Then paul was like there is no oreder in this so women of this church be silent and learn , ask your husbands at home when you want to know something fo God is a God of order. there were many women leaders in the bible. Deborah Queent of the south Mirian Huldah Phebe Eudia Shynthc ( spelled wrong ) to name a few of an Ester

Romans, I have heard this arguement often on the board, and in other conversations as well...Could you tell me where you get it from? Im certain you didnt get it from the Bible...where in the bible does it say women were not educated on the scriptures?? where does it say in the bible that women sat on one side and the men on the other..?? which by the way contradicts your first statement..if they were in the congregation, how could you say they were ignorant? Where does the bible say women were yelling questions over to their husbands...?? That has to be the silliest thing I have heard in a long time...lol... as for your list of women "leaders"... which one of them was a priest in the old testament...offered sacrifices, performed temple services, etc???? Which one was ordained as a bishop, deacon elder, in the new testament...???

blueheron32

[OneJoe]

Rylee, meditate on the WHOLE SCRIPTURE not just what Onejoe had given here.

First of all, Anna was a prophetess who SPOKE in the temple of God. God commanded a WOMAN to speak in His temple.

2:36. And there was one Anna, a prophetess, the daughter of Phanuel, of the tribe of Aser. She was far advanced in years and had lived with her husband seven years from her virginity.
Et erat Anna prophetissa filia Phanuhel de tribu Aser haec processerat in diebus multis et vixerat cum viro suo annis septem a virginitate sua

2:37. And she was a widow until fourscore and four years: who departed not from the temple, by fastings and prayers serving night and day.
Et haec vidua usque ad annos octoginta quattuor quae non discedebat de templo ieiuniis et obsecrationibus serviens nocte ac die

2:38. Now she, at the same hour, coming in, confessed to the Lord: and spoke of him to all that looked for the redemption of Israel.
Et haec ipsa hora superveniens confitebatur Domino et loquebatur de illo omnibus qui expectabant redemptionem Hierusalem
Luke 2:36-38

Second of all, God calls His daughters (women) TO PROPHESY (declare, teach, preach the Word of God) in the last days.

17
'It will come to pass in the last days,' God says, 'that I will pour out a portion of my spirit upon all flesh. Your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your young men shall see visions, your old men shall dream dreams.


Third of all, this letter of instruction was for a WIFE to SUBMIT herself to her HUSBAND (not teach him). It never said here that a woman is not to teach in the church. Men like Onejoe like taking this verse out of context to justify their doctrine.

2:11. Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.
Mulier in silentio discat cum omni subiectione

2:12. But I suffer not a woman ("wife") to teach, nor to use authority over the man ("husband"): but to be in silence.
Docere autem mulieri non permitto neque dominari in virum sed esse in silentio

2:13. For Adam ("the husband") was first formed; then Eve ("the wife").
Adam enim primus formatus est deinde Eva

I still have more and I can still go on giving you SEVERAL scriptures proving that women are never forbidden by God to lead, to teach, to preach, to prophesy, etc.
meditate on the WHOLE SCRIPTURE

Germanjoy, you really should try practicing what you preach, since after all the bible says for women to remain silent in church.


As far as Anna goes, again you can't prove that. The bible bluntly, without doubt, says for women to remain silent in church, but you take a couple of scriptures about Anna and twist that into her "teaching", but the scriptures only say she spoke, or talked to the others about him. It is in no way clear that she taught in the temple. After all, she was originally doing what a Godly woman would do, fasting and praying.

Once again, your taking the daughters prophecying and adding to that what you want it to say. Yes the daughters too will declare God's word as truth, but it does not say they will do so in the churches. It's good to read that scripture as it is, not what we want it to say.


I still have more and I can still go on giving you SEVERAL scriptures proving that women are never forbidden by God to lead, to teach, to preach, to prophesy, etc.

Please post the several scriptures you claim to have. That way others who God wills to see, will in fact see they did not teach in the temples or synagogues. Also, you said women were NEVER fobidden by God to lead, to teach, to preach, to prophecy??? You know better than that or this topic wouldn't exist. The bible plainly says for women to remain silent in the church and you say NEVER? Ha!


Onejoe

[germanJoy]

Germanjoy, you really should try practicing what you preach, since after all the bible says for women to remain silent in church.

Onejoe, this statement of yours is EXACTLY the reason why men like you need to change heart, repent and return into obeying the words of JESUS CHRIST and not the words of men.

First, settle your own definition of this word "church" where you ordered women to be silent, is it?;

a) the "church building" you ABHORED which you considered as the WHORE?
b) this CCF website (a church or not)?
c) a church somewhere over the rainbow wherever that may be???

If your answer is a), why do you implement Paul's instruction to a whore? If it is b), then all women (obviously women come here to speak) here should be REMOVED. If you decide for c), then please tell me where, what and who this church is.

As soon as you provide the answer, then and then we can BEGIN to communicate about the women being silent in this church.

As far as Anna goes, again you can't prove that. The bible bluntly, without doubt, says for women to remain silent in church, but you take a couple of scriptures about Anna and twist that into her "teaching", but the scriptures only say she spoke, or talked to the others about him. It is in no way clear that she taught in the temple. After all, she was originally doing what a Godly woman would do, fasting and praying.

Oh yes, and Anna was SPEAKING in the CHURCH OF GOD. If you deny this, you will be called a LIAR. And hey, if I am speaking about Christ, am I not teaching, am I not preaching, am I not evangelising, am I not proclaiming, am I not prophesying and that she did DAY AND NIGHT? You give me one hour to speak about Christ, and you will hear A LOT of words coming out of my mouth. :-)

Teaching? Did really Paul forbid WOMEN to teach? Have you not read yourself or are you just blinded?

Older women, likewise are to be reverent in their behaviour, not malicious gossips, nor enslaved to much wine, TEACHING WHAT IS GOOD.. Titus 2:3

Once again, your taking the daughters prophecying and adding to that what you want it to say. Yes the daughters too will declare God's word as truth, but it does not say they will do so in the churches. It's good to read that scripture as it is, not what we want it to say.

Are you sure we are still in the same planet, Onejoe? :-O You are claiming that the Scripture says that the daughters and the women are not allowed to PROPHESY in the church! Oh, please sorry to say but that's a heresy. Where and when was this PROPHECY about the daughters and women spoken? Was it not spoken in the place where the believers, the disciples, the Apostles were gathered we know to be the CHURCH (the body of Christ)? Was it not spoken AT THE DAY OF PENTECOST when the Holy Spirit was poured out upon the church? So what gives you Onejoe the right to EXCLUDE the church as a place where the daughters and the women have to prophesy? Again, ANOTHER LIE has just come out from the pits of hell.

Please post the several scriptures you claim to have. That way others who God wills to see, will in fact see they did not teach in the temples or synagogues. Also, you said women were NEVER fobidden by God to lead, to teach, to preach, to prophecy??? You know better than that or this topic wouldn't exist. The bible plainly says for women to remain silent in the church and you say NEVER? Ha!

HA!! The scales in your eyes will never be removed unless you get the revelation that JESUS CHRIST, the Lord of Lords and the King of Kings, has equally called both male and female, men and women, sons and daughters, to BUILD His Kingdom here on earth WITHOUT DISTINCTION.

For if, I repeat, IF the disciples were MEN like you who would never believe that WOMEN can be used by God to speak to them, then they would have not believed God and disobeyed God Himself. They would have replied to Mary Magdalene, "Go away! Our Lord Jesus will never speak to you, you are a woman...He forbids women to speak in the church and we are the church. Keep your mouth SHUT!" Was this really the case? Let us look at the bible, the Word of God.

Jesus said to her, "Mary!" She turned and said to Him in Hebrew, "Rabboni! (which means Teacher). Jesus said to her, "Stop clinging to Me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father; but go to My brethren, and say (SPEAK) to them, "I ascend to My Father and your Father, and My God and your God." John 20:16-17

If you really want to become a disciple of Christ, you need to be prepared to receive the WORD OF GOD spoken to you even if it comes out from the mouth of a WOMAN. Otherwise, you will be in unbelief and find yourself resisting God Himself. This website claims that God is no respecter of person. So will He exclude women to speak here?

The Lord gives the command. The women who proclaim the good tidings are a great host; Kings of armies flee, they flee. And she who remains at home will divide the spoil! Psalms 68:11-12

Take heed to the Word of God and not words of men!!!

[germanJoy]

Just retyping the prophetical Word of God in red.

The Lord gives the command. The women who proclaim the good tidings are a great host; Kings of armies flee, they flee. And she who remains at home will divide the spoil! Psalms 68:11-12

[germanJoy]

The entire bible is God inspired. The word of God. If Paul was speaking false opinions, then it wouldn't be in the bible. As long as you believe in ALL the bible and its entirety, then I might take that verse into account.
I never claimed that Paul was speaking false opinions. That was your own word. The problem and the fact is there are contrasts in Scriptures. We need to TAKE THE WHOLE SCRIPTURES (not just parts we want to hear) before we arrive at any conclusions what a particular Scripture really meant and why does it contradict the other Scripture. That is what you call STUDYING AND RIGHTLY DIVIDING THE WORD OF GOD. It has nothing to do with disbelieving the bible at all... it has more to do with being WISE and DISCERNING the things concerning spiritual matters.

Now you claimed "jesus did say that the woman isnt supposed to speak in the church" but there is no single verse in the bible that Jesus ever said so. That is why I had to ask where. The right statement could have been "Paul said..." then I would have accepted it. And I would have explained why Paul said so. If it was Jesus who said so, then it would have sounded totally different. But Jesus did not say so because He never thought so as well. :-)

[blueheron32]

"there is no proof of a woman teaching in the church or temple..." you say..."

bikn, there is no proof of women being ordained as bishops, deacons, elders. any more than there is any evidence of women serving in the priesthood in tabernacle service or temple worship..

Because there are female jewish rabbis today, are you suggesting that that means it is right for there to be female elders deacons bishops?? to use your favorite word...Hogwash... In case you havent noticed, todays jews dont follow the word of God any more than they did in Jesus day.

"In the 1st Century forward, Bibles were not even given to lay people, but many were written in Latin and only in the possession of priests. Our friend King James of England remedied that for us."

In the first century forward bibles were not in the hands of most people because they did not exist is large numbers. It wasnt until the printing press that bibles were produced in large numbers, and then not until people like wycliffe and tyndale translated the bible into the english language, was it distributed in a language understood by the common man. King james did not remedy that situation, there were a variety of english translations available before king james. from there the bible was translated into many other languages...

"This is an issue that can be kicked around over and over. Like I said previously... I've heard 10 people tell me why my girlfriend cannot preach, and 10 more who say she can. Who is right?"

The question is bikn..not what does man say...but what does God say. In every instance when Gods word describes a persons qualifications for leadership in the church..as an elder deacon or bishop, it is always a man, married, with children... It is never a woman. Those are Gods instructions, a pattern that can be seen from the oldtestament church to the new testament church....your arguement is with God not with me...:-)

"So ladies, I say this... if the words that come out of your mouth come from God's word.... preach it. I'm happy to see a woman step up to the plate when a man refuses to!
One final thought... Did anyone know that in most Christian homes the woman is the one leading and encouraging others in the faith? The men do not step up and take charge. And that's sad. So if the men refuse to do it, ladies...keep up the good work!"

So, Bikn,,you are being very bold here....Are you telling the ladies to disregard Gods word and listen to bikn??? Are you saying that if men sinfully fail to fulfull their obligations as leaders in the church, that women can sinfully take their place??? And where did you get that statistic you so confidently asserted bikn,? That in the majority of homes it is the woman who is the spiritual leader?? Sounds to me like the pattern will be present in your home as well.. Dont you know that those men who submit to women in spiritual authority over them, go to hell...you should be careful what you advise bikn, you are speaking against God.

1Co 6:9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
1Co 6:10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

blueheron32

[hisway]

This topic has raised the hairs upon many whom have posted on it in the past.
One problem that is dominant in the world today is that so many try and place God in to their little box as they understand Him.

This post is and has been filled with emotions and doctrines of men. If one truly wants to know the answer to this question, ask God our loving Father who will withhold no good thing from us especially when we ask for wisdom.

As to are women called to be ministers? Yes we are all called to be ministers. Are we to recognize women as teachers? The Bible does, so should we do so. How can we know for sure if a woman or man for that matter is called to be a Pastor or leader? Jesus clearly gave us the means to identify those who are His disciples. "15And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. 16He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. 17And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; 18They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover." Mark 16:15-18

But today their will be those who teach according to the god they believe that is within the box they have placed him. The true God, and the true Head of the church Jesus Christ is breaking up all these boxes, He is shaking the worlds foundation and calling forth those who seek Him in spirit and truth and is thundering out to the world and heavens "This is My church, which I have built upon the foundations of the world, these are my Children who know my voice and I AM pouring out My Spirit upon the Sons and Daughters today in this present age and the truth and Glory of My Church shall shine forth"

But there are those who will remain with the scales upon there eyes, their ears blocked even as those who were bound by the spirit of religion in the time our Master & King Jesus walked the earth.

For those of you who truly seek the truth, ask Holy Spirit to guide you, for He will surely point you toward the truthful answer, rely not upon the knowledge of men, test the all things and use Holy discernment for these are ours gifts to use which God has freely given us. Does not the Bible say "We have the mind of Christ?" Yes it does, so let us all start using it and realize that there are no limiting factors that can limit what God flows through be it man, beast or nature, He is the creator, He is Jehovah - 'owlam el: The Lord, the everlasting God. And it is Jehovah-saba: The Lord of Hosts who has called and anointed us all to preach the Good News.

IHS,

[OneJoe]

Germanjoy, I believe your first question is just the right one to ask..:-)

Onejoe, this statement of yours is EXACTLY the reason why men like you need to change heart, repent and return into obeying the words of JESUS CHRIST and not the words of men.

Word's of men? You must be referring to Paul since he was the one that said that? I believe and follow the words of Paul just as I do Christ, not because Paul was God, but because he spoke while God inspired him. Well, you obviously have a problem with what Paul said and don't believe it applies today; therefore, how many other books that Paul wrote wouldn't apply today????

First, settle your own definition of this word "church" where you ordered women to be silent, is it?;

a) the "church building" you ABHORED which you considered as the WHORE?
b) this CCF website (a church or not)?
c) a church somewhere over the rainbow wherever that may be???

A) Yes the church building or place the congregation meets has become the great whore; however, at the time of Paul's instructions it was not yet gone apostate. But, I somehow think you already knew this and just wanted an explanation..:-)

B) No, CCF is not a church. If it were then I would like to believe the law from God would apply here.

C) humor? :-)

Oh yes, and Anna was SPEAKING in the CHURCH OF GOD. If you deny this, you will be called a LIAR. And hey, if I am speaking about Christ, am I not teaching, am I not preaching, am I not evangelising, am I not proclaiming, am I not prophesying and that she did DAY AND NIGHT?

Oh yes, Anna was speaking in the church of God, but once again you can't prove she was "teaching" in the temple and contradicting God. So you want to call me a liar? You have yet to prove me a liar..:-) And if your speaking about Christ, you may be teaching, preaching, etc..but CCF is not a church and that is the subject is it not? Also, you keep bringing up women teaching. No one has disagreed that women taught, but the subject is in regard to them teaching in the church. So perhaps we can stay on the topic at hand?..:-)

Teaching? Did really Paul forbid WOMEN to teach? Have you not read yourself or are you just blinded?

Older women, likewise are to be reverent in their behaviour, not malicious gossips, nor enslaved to much wine, TEACHING WHAT IS GOOD.. Titus 2:3

Germanjoy, please quote the next verse as well..:-)

Tit 2:3 The aged women likewise, that they be in behavior as becometh holiness, not false accusers, not given to much wine, teachers of good things;
Tit 2:4 That they may teach the young women to be sober, to love their husbands, to love their children,
Tit 2:5 To be discreet, chaste, keepers at home, good, obedient to their own husbands, that the word of God be not blasphemed.

The verse you posted is followed by a verse that shows for them to teach the young women. Also, it does not say they can teach in the churches. I too could pick out random verses, but they don't prove what your trying to say.

Are you sure we are still in the same planet, Onejoe? You are claiming that the Scripture says that the daughters and the women are not allowed to PROPHESY in the church! Oh, please sorry to say but that's a heresy. Where and when was this PROPHECY about the daughters and women spoken? Was it not spoken in the place where the believers, the disciples, the Apostles were gathered we know to be the CHURCH (the body of Christ)? Was it not spoken AT THE DAY OF PENTECOST when the Holy Spirit was poured out upon the church? So what gives you Onejoe the right to EXCLUDE the church as a place where the daughters and the women have to prophesy? Again, ANOTHER LIE has just come out from the pits of hell.

Germanjoy, once again your avoiding the point. You have brought up the "body of Christ" as the church when you know perfectly well I was talking about the place of meeting, the church building. So are you going to stay on topic or keep up with the random comments that you know I am not talking about? See I said the daughters prophecying was not saying they could do so in the church buildings and you know that also so therefore you took it off to meaning the body of Christ, knowing that is not the subject.

HA!! The scales in your eyes will never be removed unless you get the revelation that JESUS CHRIST, the Lord of Lords and the King of Kings, has equally called both male and female, men and women, sons and daughters, to BUILD His Kingdom here on earth WITHOUT DISTINCTION.

Germanjoy, I am not the one blinded here. In fact, I believe you see what i'm talking about, you just don't like the truth of what Paul said, a man inspired by God. Also, no one said that God wasn't using women to help build his kingdom, but only that they were not allowed to teach in the churches. So while you aim to accuse others of prohibiting women in many aspects, I am only speaking the truth of what Paul said, that in fact they are prohibted from teaching in the churches, "one" area.

If you really want to become a disciple of Christ, you need to be prepared to receive the WORD OF GOD spoken to you even if it comes out from the mouth of a WOMAN. Otherwise, you will be in unbelief and find yourself resisting God Himself. This website claims that God is no respecter of person. So will He exclude women to speak here?

Interesting comment! First, your a woman are you not? Yet I'm listening to you? And I just don't agree with you. So I do hear women and in fact I agree with some. I have agreed with you before, but not this time and I will not.


Take heed to the Word of God and not words of men!!!

I agree to take heed>1Ti 4:1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;


Onejoe

[OneJoe]

I never claimed that Paul was speaking false opinions. That was your own word. The problem and the fact is there are contrasts in Scriptures. We need to TAKE THE WHOLE SCRIPTURES (not just parts we want to hear) before we arrive at any conclusions what a particular Scripture really meant and why does it contradict the other Scripture. That is what you call STUDYING AND RIGHTLY DIVIDING THE WORD OF GOD. It has nothing to do with disbelieving the bible at all... it has more to do with being WISE and DISCERNING the things concerning spiritual matters.

Now you claimed but there is no single verse in the bible that Jesus ever said so. That is why I had to ask where. The right statement could have been "Paul said..." then I would have accepted it. And I would have explained why Paul said so. If it was Jesus who said so, then it would have sounded totally different. But Jesus did not say so because He never thought so as well. :-)
So if Paul was to walk into your church today and say women should remain silent during service, what would you do? We don't know what he looked like do we.:-) I believe if Paul walked into a church today and began preaching, he would be thrown out on his face. The women would be outraged to hear him.

[Rylee]

Doesn't that prove how much Christianity has changed? It's not God that's changed it, it's mankind. Does that bother anybody? I'm struggling with that... are we really doing God's will, seeing as mankind has altered Christianity so much in the past 2000+ years?

[germanJoy]

Word's of men? You must be referring to Paul since he was the one that said that? I believe and follow the words of Paul just as I do Christ, not because Paul was God, but because he spoke while God inspired him. Well, you obviously have a problem with what Paul said and don't believe it applies today; therefore, how many other books that Paul wrote wouldn't apply today????

You have rightly said that for yourself, Onejoe :-) . You claim that tonques have ceased and should no longer be allowed in the church even though Paul instructed "forbid not to speak in tonques". But you do forbid the church to speak in tonques by your teaching! So who really is not applying Paul's words here? :LOL

A) Yes the church building or place the congregation meets has become the great whore; however, at the time of Paul's instructions it was not yet gone apostate. But, I somehow think you already knew this and just wanted an explanation..:-)

I am sorry but I cannot follow you here. You think that the church building or meeting place of the congregation which Paul and the rest of the Apostles built had gone APOSTATE? I beg to disagree... it would be like believing that the Apostles had labored in vain... Of course not, there had always been the "chosen ones", whom the Lord had preserved from the time of the Apostles until today.

C) humor? :-)

No, I thought you might have "something particular" true church in mind which you have never mentioned yet. You are insisting on the women to be silent in this true church. I need to know which church is this to clarify the issue.

Oh yes, Anna was speaking in the church of God, but once again you can't prove she was "teaching" in the temple and contradicting God. So you want to call me a liar? You have yet to prove me a liar..:-) And if your speaking about Christ, you may be teaching, preaching, etc..but CCF is not a church and that is the subject is it not? Also, you keep bringing up women teaching. No one has disagreed that women taught, but the subject is in regard to them teaching in the church. So perhaps we can stay on the topic at hand?..:-)

Yes, it is a good idea to stay on the topic of which you also are avoiding. The topic is "women should be silent in the church". Anna was not silent in the temple, she was speaking. And until now, you have not given me a Scripture yet where it says "women should not teach in the church".

Tit 2:3 The aged women likewise, that they be in behavior as becometh holiness, not false accusers, not given to much wine, teachers of good things;
Tit 2:4 That they may teach the young women to be sober, to love their husbands, to love their children,
Tit 2:5 To be discreet, chaste, keepers at home, good, obedient to their own husbands, that the word of God be not blasphemed.

The verse you posted is followed by a verse that shows for them to teach the young women. Also, it does not say they can teach in the churches. I too could pick out random verses, but they don't prove what your trying to say.

Neither does it say that women should not teach in the church. So you are not also proving anything here, brother. I can on the other hand prove that women can teach other women in the church. That negates the claim that women cannot teach in the church. :-)

Germanjoy, once again your avoiding the point. You have brought up the "body of Christ" as the church when you know perfectly well I was talking about the place of meeting, the church building. So are you going to stay on topic or keep up with the random comments that you know I am not talking about? See I said the daughters prophecying was not saying they could do so in the church buildings and you know that also so therefore you took it off to meaning the body of Christ, knowing that is not the subject.

You need to help me out here. What is the subject then? You're making me really confused now. :LOL You want to tell me that women are not to prophesy in the church building (not the body of Christ), right? And who are the ones in the church building? Or are you telling me that the women can prophecy only in the church of whores but not in the true church building? Oh boy, I need a break. :LOL

Germanjoy, I am not the one blinded here. In fact, I believe you see what i'm talking about, you just don't like the truth of what Paul said, a man inspired by God. Also, no one said that God wasn't using women to help build his kingdom, but only that they were not allowed to teach in the churches. So while you aim to accuse others of prohibiting women in many aspects, I am only speaking the truth of what Paul said, that in fact they are prohibted from teaching in the churches, "one" area.

And where did Paul say that one? I like the truth of what Paul said but I don't like the men who have twisted the truth of what Paul said. :-)

Interesting comment! First, your a woman are you not? Yet I'm listening to you? And I just don't agree with you. So I do hear women and in fact I agree with some. I have agreed with you before, but not this time and I will not.

No one else will benefit from women being forbidden to speak in the church other than the devil himself.

The Word of God says:

Jesus used a woman to speak to His brethren.

Jesus taught women of God's Word. Had Jesus think women should not teach, then He would not have wasted His time teaching them.

Anna spoke in the church/temple of God.

The women were the ones who delivered/declared/taught the male disciples the details of Jesus' resurrection (and possibly also the crucifixiion) since they have witnessed it.

There was a female apostle, Junias, who obviously taught God's Word.

Daughters and women were prophesying, are prophesying, will be prophesying having the same Holy Spirit poured out upon them.

Will the Holy Spirit forbid His temple (believing women) to speak or to teach God's Word in the church? Can you imagine that? I can't and I will not dare teach otherwise.

What did Paul say again? "Women should be silent in the church which means women should not prophesy."

What did Joel say? "Daughters and women will not be silent in the church for they will prophesy in the last days."

Now who has rightly divided the Word of God or shall I ask who has the doctrine of the devil? :)

[germanJoy]

So if Paul was to walk into your church today and say women should remain silent during service, what would you do? We don't know what he looked like do we.:-) I believe if Paul walked into a church today and began preaching, he would be thrown out on his face. The women would be outraged to hear him.
In the same way, if the prophet Joel would walk into your church today and say "women should not be silent during service for they should prophesy", will men like you stone him and accuse him to be a false prophet because Paul said otherwise? I am sure you would. After all, prophets are stoned since the beginning until now.

If Paul would walked into our church today and forbid women to speak, then I would reason out with him. I would ask him how in the world are women to fulfill the prophecy that they should speak the prophetic Word of God in the last days if they are to be silent? I would also ask him how come Anna spoke in the temple? I am sure Paul has to find a way to convince me that he meant it differently. And then we will both praise and glorify God for pouring out His Holy Spirit to all flesh; men and women alike. ;)

[romans 8:17]

HEY how about you look at pauls instruction to women...

in worship

i timothy 2 11I don't let women take over and tell the men what to do. 12They should study to be quiet and obedient along with everyone else. 13Adam was made first, then Eve; 14woman was deceived first--our pioneer in sin!-with Adam right on her heels. 15On the other hand, her childbearing brought about salvation, reversing Eve. But this salvation only comes to those who continue in faith, love, and holiness, gathering it all into maturity. You can depend on this.

as deaconess'
1 timothy 3 11In the same way, women deacons must be respected and must not speak evil of others. They must exercise self-control and be faithful in everything they do.

here is paul commending a women leafer of the church...
romans 16 1I have good things to say about Phoebe, who is a leader in the church at Cenchreae. 2Welcome her in a way that is proper for someone who has faith in the Lord and is one of God's own people. Help her in any way you can. After all, she has proved to be a respected leader for many others, including me.

here is a female apostle whom paul also thinks highly of
romans 16 7Greet Andronicus and Junia, my relatives who have been in prison with me. They are outstanding among the apostles, and they were in Christ before I was.

here are some female profits who spoke out boldly for God

luke 2 36Anna the prophetess was also there, a daughter of Phanuel from the tribe of Asher. She was by now a very old woman. She had been married seven years 37and a widow for eighty-four. She never left the Temple area, worshiping night and day with her fastings and prayers. 38At the very time Simeon was praying, she showed up, broke into an anthem of praise to God, and talked about the child to all who were waiting expectantly for the freeing of Jerusalem.

Judges 4 4 Deborah, a prophetess, the wife of Lappidoth, was leading [a] Israel at that time. read judges 4 and 5...

2 kings 22 14 Hilkiah the priest, Ahikam, Acbor, Shaphan and Asaiah went to speak to the prophetess Huldah, who was the wife of Shallum son of Tikvah, the son of Harhas, keeper of the wardrobe. She lived in Jerusalem, in the Second District

now lets see about men and women lets compare...

1 chorinthains 11
10Don't, by the way, read too much into the differences here between men and women. 11Neither man nor woman can go it alone or claim priority. Man was created first, as a beautiful shining reflection of God--that is true. But the head on a woman's body clearly outshines in beauty the head of her husband. 12The first woman came from man, true--but ever since then, every man comes from a woman! And since virtually everything comes from God anyway, let's quit going through these "who's first" routines.

so yeah ... Phebe was a deacon, and ..

"I brought you up out of Egypt and redeemed you from the land of slavery. I sent Moses to lead you, also Aaron and Miriam" (Micah 6:4).
God sent Miriam to lead and Deborah to lead. We don't get a first hand view of too many women, you have to realize the time periond it was in... none of these women could read or write ( most likely) and were not give spiritual education like their male counter parts.

Lydia (Acts 16:12-15, 40; Philippians 1:10), a hospitable businesswoman whose entire household was converted.

The queen of sheba will rise up and judge us like Jesus said but here is her story ...2 Chron. 9:12

1The queen of Sheba heard of Solomon's reputation and came to Jerusalem to put his reputation to the test, asking all the tough questions. She made a showy entrance--an impressive retinue of attendants and camels loaded with perfume and much gold and precious stones. She emptied her heart to Solomon, talking over everything she cared about. 2And Solomon answered everything she put to him--nothing stumped him. 3When the queen of Sheba experienced for herself Solomon's wisdom and saw with her own eyes the palace he had built, 4the meals that were served, the impressive array of court officials, the sharply dressed waiters, the cupbearers, and then the elaborate worship extravagant with Whole-Burnt-Offerings at The Temple of GOD, it all took her breath away.
5She said to the king, "It's all true! Your reputation for accomplishment and wisdom that reached all the way to my country is confirmed. 6I wouldn't have believed it if I hadn't seen it for myself; they didn't exaggerate! Such wisdom and elegance--far more than I could ever have imagined. 7Lucky the men and women who work for you, getting to be around you every day and hear your wise words firsthand! 8And blessed be your GOD who has taken such a liking to you, making you king. Clearly, GOD's love for Israel is behind this, making you king to keep a just order and nurture a God-pleasing people."

9She then gave the king four and a half tons of gold and sack after sack of spices and precious stones. There hasn't been a cargo of spices like the shipload the queen of Sheba brought to King Solomon. 10The ships of Hiram also imported gold from Ophir along with fragrant sandalwood and expensive gems. 11The king used the sandalwood for fine cabinetry in The Temple of GOD and the royal palace, and for making harps and dulcimers for the musicians. Nothing like that shipment of sandalwood has been seen since.

12King Solomon, for his part, gave the queen of Sheba all her heart's desire--everything she asked for. She took away more than she brought. Satisfied, she returned home with her train of servants. 13Solomon received twenty-five tons of gold annually. 14This was above and beyond the taxes and profit on trade with merchants and traders. All kings of Arabia and various and assorted governors also brought silver and gold to Solomon.

15King Solomon crafted 200 body-length shields of hammered gold--about fifteen pounds of gold to each shield 16-and about 300 small shields about half that size. He stored the shields in the House of the Forest of Lebanon.

17The king made a massive throne of ivory with a veneer of gold. 18The throne had six steps leading up to it with an attached footstool of gold. The armrests on each side were flanked by lions. 19Lions, twelve of them, were placed at either end of the six steps. There was no throne like it in any other kingdom.

20King Solomon's chalices and tankards were made of gold, and all the dinnerware and serving utensils in the House of the Forest of Lebanon were pure gold. Nothing was made of silver; silver was considered common and cheap in the time of Solomon.

21The king's ships, manned by Hiram's sailors, made a round trip to Tarshish every three years, returning with a cargo of gold, silver, and ivory, apes and peacocks.

22King Solomon was richer and wiser than all the kings of the earth--he surpassed them all. 23Kings came from all over the world to be with Solomon and get in on the wisdom God had given him. 24Everyone who came brought gifts--artifacts of gold and silver, fashionable robes and gowns, the latest in weapons, exotic spices, horses, and mules--parades of visitors, year after year.

25Solomon collected horses and chariots. He had 4,000 stalls for horses and chariots, and 12,000 horsemen in barracks in the chariot-cities and in Jerusalem. 26He ruled over all the kings from the River Euphrates in the east, throughout the Philistine country, and as far west as the border of Egypt. 27The king made silver as common as rocks and cedar as common as the fig trees in the lowland hills. 28He carried on a brisk horse-trading business with Egypt and other places. 29The rest of Solomon's life and rule, from start to finish, one can read in the records of Nathan the prophet, the prophecy of Ahijah of Shiloh, and in the visions of Iddo the seer concerning Jeroboam son of Nebat. 30Solomon ruled in Jerusalem over all Israel for forty years. 31Solomon died and was buried in the City of David his father. His son Rehoboam was the next king.


Dorcas (Acts 9:36-43), who led by her example of service.

well thats all...

[OneJoe]

Okay, this is certainly a never ending topic so lets simplify this. Show me where a woman TAUGHT or PREACHED in the temple or synagogues. I am not interested in anything outside the temple or meeting place because I have not disagreed with you on that part. So do you have another scripture that shows a woman teaching or preaching INSIDE the temple? The scripture with Anna does not support your belief let alone reprove me. So as clear as the bible is that a woman should remain quiet, which rules out teaching, what scripture do you have to prove this ONLY applied to this one church and that women can teach in the churches? If this only applied to this one church, then none of Corinthians would apply to us today since it was to them only right? What you claim would lead so many people to think that each epistle only applied to that one church it was to and not to us today.

[Triple Crown]

A post by sisterinJesus that applies here:
Imperfect people trying to interpret Perfect Words

Originally posted here by Hisway:
For those of you who truly seek the truth, ask Holy Spirit to guide you, for He will surely point you toward the truthful answer, rely not upon the knowledge of men, test the all things and use Holy discernment for these are ours gifts to use which God has freely given us. Does not the Bible say "We have the mind of Christ?" Yes it does, so let us all start using it and realize that there are no limiting factors that can limit what God flows through be it man, beast or nature, He is the creator, He is Jehovah - 'owlam el: The Lord, the everlasting God. And it is Jehovah-saba: The Lord of Hosts who has called and anointed us all to preach the Good News.

No offense to anyone here but HONESTLY!!!!

I'm right!!!
No, I'm right!!!
No, I am !!!
Uh uh, I am !!!
No way, I am !!!
You're a jerk !!!
No, you are !!!
I know you are but what am I !!!

Debate is one thing, name calling is another, regardless of how "passionate" you are about the subject (anyone remember humble?).
You all make your point like the sky cracked open above only you and God himself handed you the keys to the kingdom and ALL understanding!!!

Remember this all of you....

You are hard selling YOUR interpretation of the Scripture. Anything taken out of context from the bible can prove anyone's point convincingly....even Satans'. If one reads the Bible searching for verses to prove ones point, they can easily be found.
So the point here is as the quote from Hisway states above.
Pray on it, seek enlightenment, and hold your peace. God will surely let us know what HE meant when we get there.

Peace to you all

[blueheron32]

I'm right!!!
No, I'm right!!!
No, I am !!!
Uh uh, I am !!!
No way, I am !!!
You're a jerk !!!
No, you are !!!
I know you are but what am I !!!

So triple crown...where do you fit on that list..??....:-)

Frankly I dont believe God ever intended us to sit here and be blissfully ignorant concerning his will. He gave us the Bible to read, and study and learn of Him...He gave us the ability to reason, and think, and use logic...He sent the Holy Spirit to lead us into all truth...... To just sit back and wait till we get to heaven so God can tell us seems to me to be unreasonable... Ignorance on purpose. Pure laziness... Otherwise known as sin. Sloth. But thats just me...:-) Ive been called a jerk before...I guess I will just keep on searching for the answers God provides....God bless you too triple crown...

blueheron32

[Triple Crown]

No offense to anyone here but HONESTLY!!!!

I'm right!!!
No, I'm right!!!
No, I am !!!
Uh uh, I am !!!
No way, I am !!!
You're a jerk !!!
No, you are !!!
I know you are but what am I !!!

It's called being faetious Blue....

facetious
adj : Playfully jocular; humorous, cleverly amusing in tone; "a bantering tone"; "facetious remarks"; "tongue-in-cheek advice"

Frankly I dont believe God ever intended us to sit here and be blissfully ignorant concerning his will.

Never said the above, again taken out of context....


To just sit back and wait till we get to heaven so God can tell us seems to me to be unreasonable... Ignorance on purpose. Pure laziness... Otherwise known as sin. Sloth.

I didn't say this either ???, again your saying what you want to hear !!!


I'm not here to do battle,
just to be the other cheek of the one that keeps getting kicked by the Pharisees here...

In peace my brother

[Rylee]

In defense of EVERYBODY, sometimes it's hard to tell what people mean when they type. I know that I talk differently than I type, and since I talk faster than I type, sometimes I leave things out that I normally would say, and therefore am taken out of context.

Also, much like the Bible, different things can be interpreted different ways. One sentence can have different twists on it, depending on what the reader sees and thinks.

Just sayin'... :-D

[germanJoy]

Well done Romans 8:17, fellow servant of the Lord! I am standing in ovation to your good work of service for the kingdom of God, the kingdom of light! You have saved me a lot of work to find all these Scriptures about the women whom the Lord loves so sincerely and whom the Lord has raised up to be His servants, His leaders, His annointed, His prophetesses! :)

But still many will reject and resist them! :-(

[CheeseKing]

I doubt blue was fighting against you, Triple Crown... he had little smilies on his post. I am not fighting you, as I type. We peacefully post, back and forth, to one another. I find many times, that emotion is not easily displayed, in typing. He is not directly attacking you. He is making a general statement. Pharisees?

[Triple Crown]

Thank you "Cheesy one :-D ", but rest easy. I also am not "fighting" against Blue. Just making an observation about the thread (see my Complete original post). I was only answering sarcasm with sarcasm (without the "smilies") in my response to him.
The "peaceful" posts you speak of get a little nasty here from time to time (see page one posts on this thread). When people start questioning whether or not one another are "liars" etc... I will step in and at least try to get them to "take five" and think for a minute.
This life is a very gray area for all of us. The Bible is the only "black and white" there is for us all. So to hear people insisting that their black is blacker, or white is whiter then someone elses is frustrating.
That "holier than thou" point of view divides us and is pointless. And when it gets heated it's not healthy, "passionate debate", "In my opinion" it is Satan doing his best work on believers.

More often than not here you will not find someone saying "in my opinion, this is how I understand that Scripture", instead you see verbatim quotes from Scripture like that person wrote them himself. That to me is blasphemy.

[in.the.light]

Romans 16: 1 says that Phoebe was a minister (deacon) and leader in the Church in Cenchrea. Priscilla and Aquila were co-pastors of the church in Ephesus. Julia was an apostle. Jesus chose a woman to be the first to preach of His resurrection. God chooses and equips women to be pastors, elders, teachers etc and so I just let God be God, afterall He makes the rules, not me.

[blueheron32]

Romans...

I dont know what "version" you are using, but it bares no resemblance to the actual words God said...It is simply another example of people who want God to say a certain thing, and so put words in his mouth, and say, "thus saith the Lord",,, They have their very own little puppet god... If you want to know what God actually said, you need to use a more reliable translation...

blueheron32

[blueheron32]

so I just let God be God,

Thats nice of you to "let" God be God...:-) Im sure he is grateful...

blueheron32

[romans 8:17]

I used various translations contemparary english version, niv, nlt, the message

[Bikn4God]

Keep preachin' girls.

CJ

[Godsent]

Blue...u despise preachers in general whether their female or male...so why try to argue the case that men should be the ones preaching when u feel that neither are good at it?

[Bikn4God]

Doesn't like Rabbi's either.

CJ
SFFS

[OneJoe]

I used various translations contemparary english version, niv, nlt, the message
You used several translations? What you had in your post is from "the message" translation, which by the way is a lousy translation. So you didn't use other translations. Try proving your point useing a more reliable translation rather than a translation that blows the scripture out of proportion. Let me use an example.

1 Tim 2:11

KJV)Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.

NIV)A woman should learn in quietness and full submission.

NKJV)Let a woman learn in silence with all submission.

LTV) Let a woman learn in silence, in all subjection.

CEV)and they should learn by being quiet and paying attention.

ASV)Let a woman learn in quietness with all subjection.

AB)Let a woman learn in quietness, in entire submissiveness.

Now, look at your "message" translation....

Message)I don't let women take over and tell the men what to do.

How does a woman not telling a man what to do have anything to do with them learning in quietness with all subjection? So you said you use several translations? Did you check them all out to find which one best fit your views or is that poor translation your normal corruption? You really should check out the Greek interlinear and see the difference between what you read and what was actually written.

[romans 8:17]

ok well what about the other verses i didnt even use message fo most of them....

[hisway]

Blueheron stated " Dont you know that those men who submit to women in spiritual authority over them, go to hell...you should be careful what you advise bikn, you are speaking against God."

Talk about doctrines of men. Please pray tell where you find a scripture to back this statement up.

God pours His Spirit out upon whom He choses, God is not a respector of men. In fact to say that women are not to preach would be stating that Jesus went againt the teaching's of the Father which can not be. For what is a preacher to do? They are to proclaim the "Good News". We see the lady at the well who when she heard the good news of Christ went straight away and told all who would listen (John 4:13-26). Does the Bible state that she was wrong? No not at all, we see rather that the Lord took care to mention this in His Holy Word.

We see that God foretold us of even this day, the very hour upon which we are living...." 28And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions:
29And also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out my spirit. Joel 2:28-29

What we face today is men who have become the legalist of the day. They would rather place burdens upon the Children of God. Holy Spirit is likened unto the wind, He will move upon, flow through, and move whom ever the Father sends Him too.

The is a differance between Preacher and Leader? Yet there are those who stll have the scales upon thier eyes and lack Godly wisdom and stick to the doctrines of men.

Ask Holy Spirit, He is the One true teacher and He will show all who ask the truth.

IHS

[OneJoe]

ok well what about the other verses i didnt even use message fo most of them....

:-O Wait! Are you saying you pick and choose from several translations? Just whatever fits your view best eh? :-)

Onejoe

[OneJoe]

Blueheron stated " Dont you know that those men who submit to women in spiritual authority over them, go to hell...you should be careful what you advise bikn, you are speaking against God."

Talk about doctrines of men. Please pray tell where you find a scripture to back this statement up.

God pours His Spirit out upon whom He choses, God is not a respector of men. In fact to say that women are not to preach would be stating that Jesus went againt the teaching's of the Father which can not be. For what is a preacher to do? They are to proclaim the "Good News". We see the lady at the well who when she heard the good news of Christ went straight away and told all who would listen (John 4:13-26). Does the Bible state that she was wrong? No not at all, we see rather that the Lord took care to mention this in His Holy Word.

We see that God foretold us of even this day, the very hour upon which we are living...." 28And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions:
29And also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out my spirit. Joel 2:28-29

What we face today is men who have become the legalist of the day. They would rather place burdens upon the Children of God. Holy Spirit is likened unto the wind, He will move upon, flow through, and move whom ever the Father sends Him too.

The is a differance between Preacher and Leader? Yet there are those who stll have the scales upon thier eyes and lack Godly wisdom and stick to the doctrines of men.

Ask Holy Spirit, He is the One true teacher and He will show all who ask the truth.

IHS
I'm sure Paul would also be considered a legalist who is placing a burden upon the children of God also. Maybe the problem is not that men repeat what Paul said as truth, but rather the truth of what Paul said is saw as a burden. "The burden of the word of the LORD" is what is happening today because some don't like the scripture as it is, they feel it needs changed or updated. Though it's not a burden to those who know the truth.

Onejoe

[Triple Crown]

Ask Holy Spirit, He is the One true teacher and He will show all who ask the truth.

Amen Hisway .....

A Truth that's hard to accept by the self-important, "self-appointed"

[Bikn4God]

IHS,

My hat goes off to you.

CJ
SFFS

[blueheron32]

Blueheron stated " Dont you know that those men who submit to women in spiritual authority over them, go to hell...you should be careful what you advise bikn, you are speaking against God."

Talk about doctrines of men. Please pray tell where you find a scripture to back this statement up.


Hisway....I quoted the verse in that post..I guess you missed it..Here it is again...

1Co 6:9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,

you see the word effeminate there...that is the word in view...

It means that a man, who is to be the head of the woman, has placed himself under her authority, and has exchanged places with her....she is ruling over him.... in rebellion against Gods order... Whether you can see it or not...this is the same principle spoken of in old testament law...where it is prohibitted for a man to wear a womans clothes, or a woman to wear a mans clothes.... it means God has established an order, and mankind is not to attempt to confuse that order...you may not like that...but you are argueing with God not me...

As for the Holy Spirit..yes he can give gifts to whoever he chooses....but he will never appoint a person to an office for which that person is not qualified...example...

An unmarried man cannot be qualified as a deacon elder bishop...they do not meet the qualifications God has established...in the same way a woman, is prohibited from the same offices simply because she is a woman...when she becomes a man, the husband of one wife, and meets all the other requirements for those positions then she is qualified...not when someone says, she is gifted by the holy spirit to do them....but when she meets the qualifications God has established......Argue with God, Hisway... I gave that up a long time ago...:-)

blueheron32

[Bikn4God]

Effeminate means "homosexual" or a feminine type man. It's not a man putting himself under "authority" of a woman!

Are we reading the Bible here, or the Qu'ran? I can't tell !!

CJ

[hisway]

The sad thing with your response onejoe is that of many who seek only to see the scripture as they suite them, or by the false teaching's they have heard. I have read many of your post on this subject and have seen many post the truth found in the scriptures even to the showing of women in the new testament who taught and where filled with the Holy Spirit. Yet even seeing how you respond to the infilling and work of Holy Spirit in the Church today allows myself and many others to see where the lack of wisdom and discernment lies here.

For those who believe that the signs and wonders Jesus spoke of died with the last Apostle, believe in a dead doctrine, that of which cannot speak for the truth, for the truth is found in and through He whom Christ promised to those who are called by His name, Holy Ghost. If Holy Spirit is placed within the confines of ones understanding, the lack of knowledge is evident, but when one surrenders to the knowledge of Holy Spirit, one can see the truth and lives a life fulfilled in Spirit & Truth.

Paul placed no burden upon the church, rather a charge that the church believe not the doctrines of devils and men, but that of Christ and Christ crucified. Even as God is no respecter of men (men being mankind in the Greek language) so neither is Holy Spirit limited to enter and endue with power from on High to either a male or female to proclaim the Gospel of Christ.

Praise God that Holy Spirit is alive and well today, and He is going through out the earth and calling forth those who seek the Lord with all their hearts, minds and souls for the truth. He is the great bondage breaker that is lifting the scales of lies that so many have bought into and He is preparing Sons & Daughters of the King to go forth to spread the Gospel even unto the uttermost ends of the Earth with power, signs and wonders.

Take the young lady in China who has under her belt the establishing of 10,000 house churches. Men would tell her you are to young, but she would listen not, doctrines of men would say, be quiet women for you have no voice or authority to do such, yet again she would not listen rather she would reply " I come under the authority of the One who called me, over my name is His authority and He has been given all authority in Heaven and Earth." Some would tell her, you must first go to school and be educated in the doctrines of the church, yet she would turn to her teacher and quietly reply "but my Master said this is the One whom He promised to send, it is He who has taught me the truth." Is this a far fetched story? No, in fact this story is one that is truth, the young lady cannot have her name exposed as she is in China, but with only a Bicycle and a cell phone she has helped establish 10,000 house Churches in mainland China out of which thousands are being saved and testify of healing's and other miracles . Why, because she did not listen to the false teaching's that would have burdened her, rather she listened to the voice of the Master Jesus Christ who said unto her, Go Child in the authority of My name and do that which I and the Father command you to do. Preach, teach and Baptize in the Name of the Father, and of the Son and Holy Ghost and teach them all that I have taught you.

So would we say she is going against Gods will? No, rather we must say that she is going in the will of the Father and in fulfillment of the Great Commission of our Lord Jesus Christ. She is a living example of the fulfillment of Joel 2:28-29 for she is a daughter of the King, she is His handmaiden doing Kingdom work with no mind to the doctrines and millstones of men.

IHS,

[blueheron32]

bikn..

1Co 6:9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,

You will note that the verse also includes a description of "homosexuals"..it is "abusers of themselves with mankind". Effeminate is an entirely different category....

So you are wrong when you say effeminate means homosexual...but you are correct when you say effeminate means a feminine type of man...and that is exactly what a man is who is ruled over by a woman who "usurps" the role of a man, and rules over her husband. Or, a man who is in a church that has placed a woman in a place of authority, and he submits to her authority...you obviously see nothing wrong with that, so......if the skirt fits wear it...:-)

blueheron32

[Bikn4God]

Usurp- To take control or authority by force.

Effeminate- Archaic word for Homosexual.


Let's see... Jesus submitted to his mother Mary's authority.
I submitted to my mothers authority.

A Godly woman can hardly be catagorized with a fornicator, an idolator, or an adulterer. Don't see the comparison there.

There were many examples in the Bible of Godly women who lead. See previous posts for examples. If I recall, Deborah was one of them.

There are wonderful women who preach... Ann Graham Lott for one. And I'm sure no one here can call Billy Graham ungodly. Yet, his daughter preaches, and is a writer. And a good one at that.

I wear no skirts, I assure you. But I sure know how to defend those who do.

Preach on, Girls.

CJ
SFFS

[hisway]

Blueheron, you wrote;An unmarried man cannot be qualified as a deacon elder bishop...they do not meet the qualifications God has established...

So what role did Paul play? Would not Paul be accepted as a leader today? As a Bishop? Or would the legal religious right wing, even those found in the days when our Lord walked the earth the Pharisees' cry out and say, no way, for we have studied the law and law permits him not.

So to claim the very statement you are claiming then Paul had no authority to make a proclamation regarding anything as to the rules of the church.

Or wait a minute, maybe we need to change the lens we are looking through from that of religious spirit colored, to Holy Spirit empowered? :)

Nay, it is not the scriptures that mislead, rather the interpretation of those who seek to understand the scriptures with their own mind and ask not for the Godly wisdom and discernment which can be taught by Holy Spirit.

Brothers and Sisters let us all break away from the religious spirit and traditions of men, repent of such sin and ask God to pour out His Spirit upon us that we may be Baptized in the Fire of God brought unto us through the possession of our lives by Holy Spirit.

From the beginning Satan has waged a spiritual war on God Children, seeking to blind them from the truth, seeking to limit their effectiveness in the world. God is crying out for a people today even as He did in Isaiah 6 "Whom shall I send?". Let not the doctrines of men bind you any longer, rather walk, run or even crawl to the foot of the Cross and embrace the power that is released in its message. Jesus has broken the chains that bind the body of believers, let not men place those chains back upon you, in Christ we have complete liberation to fulfill the call, purpose and destiny of each of our lives according to that which God has created us for.

Again I simply state, ask Holy Spirit, for He will not lie to any of you. He will guide you unto the truth in this subject as well as any other subject. He is the teacher Christ has sent to His church, turn to Him that your eyes may be opened to the truth.

IHS,

[hisway]

Amen CJ
The Greek meaning here is:

malakovß
mal-ak-os'

Definition
soft, soft to the touch
metaph. in a bad sense
effeminate
of a catamite
of a boy kept for homosexual relations with a man
of a male who submits his body to unnatural lewdness
of a male prostitute

It States nothing of submission to a women. This is why we must study to show ourselves approved to rightly divide the Word of God and not take for granted something just because someone may have a title Senior Moderator.

IHS,

[Triple Crown]

Quoted from "hisway":
Brothers and Sisters let us all break away from the religious spirit and traditions of men, repent of such sin and ask God to pour out His Spirit upon us

Quoted from "hisway":
Let not the doctrines of men bind you any longer, rather walk, run or even crawl to the foot of the Cross and embrace the power that is released in its message. Jesus has broken the chains that bind the body of believers, let not men place those chains back upon you

Quoted from "hisway":
This is why we must study to show ourselves approved to rightly divide the Word of God and not take for granted something just because someone may have a title Senior Moderator.

Outstanding TRUTH CJ and hisway !!!

In the short time I have been here I have been disappointed how "legalistic" and self-righteous our representatives appear to be. I'm so glad that intelligent, "Holy Spirit" filled voices of reason like yours keep firing back.

"Knowing" the Bible from cover to cover means nothing if the Holy Spirit does not lead one to open up to what it teaches. Satan can also quote from the Bible verbatim, as many false teachers love to do to sell their one sided agenda.
This is dangerous to young/new Christians that arrive at this forum so I am so glad that voices like Cj's and Hw's are being heard also.

God's strength to you both
Peace to you all
TC

[germanJoy]

blue, in the early times it was entirely impossible for women to be ordained considering the old common jewish customs and practices in the whole society as well as in the minds of the Apostles and the disciples. Their hearts cry out for women but they had to deal the issue slowly but surely. They themselves had to fight against the spirit that discriminates and deprives women of being used by God. In fact, the gospel of the Apostle Thomas (which clearly discriminated women) had to excluded in the canonization of the bible since it obviously carried a different kind of spirit. And this spirit still exist among many christian male leaders today. I personally call it "doubting Thomas spirit". :-)

Here is an excerpt of the said historical fact from http://www.godandscience.org/apologetics/bibleorigin.html

HOW WAS THE NEW TESTAMENT CANON DETERMINED?

The Early church had three criteria for determining what books were to be included or excluded from the Canon of the New Testament.
First, the books must have apostolic authority-- that is, they must have been written either by the apostles themselves, who were eyewitnesses to what they wrote about, or by associates of the apostles.
Second, there was the criterion of conformity to what was called the "rule of faith." In other words, was the document congruent with the basic Christian tradition that the church recognized as normative.
Third, there was the criterion of whether a document had enjoyed continuous acceptance and usage by the church at large.
The gospel of Thomas is not included in the Canon of the New Testament for the following reasons.
The gospel of Thomas fails the test of Apostolic authority. None of the early church fathers from Clement to Irenaeus ever quoted from the gospel of Thomas. This indicates that they either did not know of it or that they rejected it as spurious. In either case, the early church fathers fail to support the gospel of Thomas' claim to have been written by the apostle. It was believed to by written around 140 A.D. There is no evidence to support its purported claim to be written by the Apostle Thomas himself.
The gospel of Thomas fails to conform to the rule of faith. It purports to contain 114 "secret sayings" of Jesus. Some of these are very similar to the sayings of Jesus recorded in the Four Gospels. For example the gospel of Thomas quotes Jesus as saying, "A city built on a high hill cannot be hidden." This reads the same as Matthew's Gospel except that high is added. But Thomas claims that Jesus said, "Split wood; I am there. Lift up a stone, and you will find me there." That concept is pantheistic. Thomas ends with the following saying that denies women salvation unless they are some how changed into being a man. "Let Mary go away from us, because women are not worthy of life." Jesus is quoted as saying, "Lo, I shall lead her in order to make her male, so that she too may become a living spirit, resembling you males. For every woman who makes herself male will enter into the kingdom of heaven."
The gospel of Thomas fails the test of continuous usage and acceptance. The lack of manuscript evidence plus the failure of the early church fathers to quote from it or recognize it shows that it was not used or accepted in the early Church. Only two manuscripts are known of this "gospel." Until 1945 only a single fifth-century copy translation in Coptic had been found. Then in 1945 a Greek manuscript of the Gospel of Thomas was found at Nag Hammadi in Egypt. This compares very poorly to the thousands of manuscripts that authenticate the Four Gospels.

Had the gospel of the Apostle Thomas been accepted, then the forbidding of women being ordained would have been justified. And then many if not all would be led astray.

It is for this reason I strongly believe that the canonization of the bible is NOT "the perfect" you had been claiming. There are out there still many manuscripts/writings which are in the possession of the Catholic Church today that are not made known to us yet. The bible we are using today is canonized by the apostate church (397 AD) and I cannot just based my whole trust on that. Yes, the original writings of the holy scriptures are perfect but not the current bible we have. If we get to have the access to the whole old manuscripts, then we can claim to have the perfect written Word of God. But to this, we need to face the Catholic Church.

But praise God the Holy Spirit of God fills us, indwells us and we still are not helpless. God gives the Holy Spirit for us to discern the right teaching from the wrong one. And brethren like hisway, CJ and Triple Crown are just examples of those who are recipients of the Spirit's revelation that women called to preach, teach, and prophesy. :-)

[blueheron32]

Blueheron, you wrote;An unmarried man cannot be qualified as a deacon elder bishop...they do not meet the qualifications God has established...

So what role did Paul play? Would not Paul be accepted as a leader today? As a Bishop? Or would the legal religious right wing, even those found in the days when our Lord walked the earth the Pharisees' cry out and say, no way, for we have studied the law and law permits him not.

So to claim the very statement you are claiming then Paul had no authority to make a proclamation regarding anything as to the rules of the church.


Hisway...the answer is simple... No where in the scripture do we read that Paul filled the position of an elder, bishop, deacon. Paul was an Apostle, appointed by Christ himself. All the apostles were men, and we do not have enough evidence, to determine whether all of them were married or not. It appears as you have indicated that Paul was unmarried, but again there is no rule concerning the marital status of apostles. And when the apostles appointed by Christ died, we see no evidence of a continuing office in the churches. Only of elder deacon, bishop. And God has given very clear instruction concerning the qualifications for those who hold those offices. As I said before, the Holy Spirit will not contradict those instructions that He, the Holy Spirit, placed in scripture.

2Pe 1:21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

blueheron32

[blueheron32]

The word malokos is used three times in the new testament....

Mat 11:8 But235 what5101 went ye out1831 for to see?1492 A man444 clothed294 in1722 soft3120 raiment?2440 behold,2400 they that wear5409 soft3120 clothing are1526 in1722 kings'935 houses.3624

Luk 7:25 But235 what5101 went ye out1831 for to see?1492 A man444 clothed294 in1722 soft3120 raiment?2440 Behold,2400 they3588 which are gorgeously appareled,1722, 1741, 2441 and2532 live5225 delicately,5172 are1526 in1722 kings' courts.933

1Co 6:9 (2228) Know1492 ye not3756 that3754 the unrighteous94 shall not3756 inherit2816 the kingdom932 of God?2316 Be not3361 deceived:4105 neither3777 fornicators,4205 nor3777 idolaters,1496 nor3777 adulterers,3432 nor3777 effeminate,3120 nor3777 abusers of themselves with mankind,733

It is the one numbered 3120... translated "soft" in the first two examples, and effeminate in the last.

In the first two verses, the word could also be translated effeminate, and the sense of the verse would not be violated. They would read something like this...But what went ye out to see, a man clothed in effeminate clothing?? In other words, not the rough manly attire that John actually wore, but soft feminine lacy clothing that one would expect to see worn by the courtiers of a king... In keeping with your example of a catamite Hisway, what is the role of that person, but to assume the role of a woman... which is exactly what I said... God made it very clear that the woman was submit to the man, her husband, and he carried this forward into church leadership. Both in the old testament church, and the new testament church. When a man reverses Gods order, he makes himself as a catamite, spiritually, he takes upon himself the role of the woman, and brings himself under the judgment of God. He shall have no inheritance in the kingdom of God...

blueheron32

[blueheron32]

In the short time I have been here I have been disappointed how "legalistic" and self-righteous our representatives appear to be. I'm so glad that intelligent, "Holy Spirit" filled voices of reason like yours keep firing back.

"Knowing" the Bible from cover to cover means nothing if the Holy Spirit does not lead one to open up to what it teaches. Satan can also quote from the Bible verbatim, as many false teachers love to do to sell their one sided agenda.
This is dangerous to young/new Christians that arrive at this forum so I am so glad that voices like Cj's and Hw's are being heard also.


Mat 5:10 Blessed are they which are persecuted for righteousness' sake: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
Mat 5:11 Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake.
Mat 5:12 Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great is your reward in heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you.

Joh 15:18 If the world hate you, ye know that it hated me before it hated you.
Joh 15:19 If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.
Joh 15:20 Remember the word that I said unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord. If they have persecuted me, they will also persecute you; if they have kept my saying, they will keep yours also.
Joh 15:21 But all these things will they do unto you for my name's sake, because they know not him that sent me.
Joh 15:22 If I had not come and spoken unto them, they had not had sin: but now they have no cloke for their sin.
Joh 15:23 He that hateth me hateth my Father also.
Joh 15:24 If I had not done among them the works which none other man did, they had not had sin: but now have they both seen and hated both me and my Father.
Joh 15:25 But this cometh to pass, that the word might be fulfilled that is written in their law, They hated me without a cause.
Joh 15:26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:
Joh 15:27 And ye also shall bear witness, because ye have been with me from the beginning.

Praise God from whom all blessings flow...:-)

blueheron32

[Triple Crown]

Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.
Matthew 16:23

Get thee behind me, Satan: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but the things that be of men
Mark 8:33

[OneJoe]

In the same way, if the prophet Joel would walk into your church today and say "women should not be silent during service for they should prophesy", will men like you stone him and accuse him to be a false prophet because Paul said otherwise? I am sure you would. After all, prophets are stoned since the beginning until now.

If Paul would walked into our church today and forbid women to speak, then I would reason out with him. I would ask him how in the world are women to fulfill the prophecy that they should speak the prophetic Word of God in the last days if they are to be silent? I would also ask him how come Anna spoke in the temple? I am sure Paul has to find a way to convince me that he meant it differently. And then we will both praise and glorify God for pouring out His Holy Spirit to all flesh; men and women alike. ;)
Germanjoy, lets remember that Joel only said that the daughters would prophecy. He never said to do it in the churches so he would not walk up into a church today and say that if he could. And, lets suppose for a moment he did. He might explain for them to prophecy, but not in the churches, because that would contradict another part of the bible.

In the same way, if the prophet Joel would walk into your church today and say "women should not be silent during service for they should prophesy", will men like you stone him and accuse him to be a false prophet because Paul said otherwise? I am sure you would.

Germanjoy, I couldn't help but notice that last part "I am sure you would." Are you actually saying I would stone someone, kill them, because they don't agree with me? Sounds like your directing a little too much at me rather than the point at hand. I said that Paul would probably be thrown out of todays churches because people don't like what he said. That is a fact since churches do not allow people in their services that preach something different because they refuse to face being wrong. I did not direct that statement toward any certain person, but rather an entire congregation that don't like him. So hypothetically, if I was attending a congregation and Joel walked in and said that women would prophecy, would I kill him? Absolutely not because he was not referring to inside the churches. The point here is some do not like what Paul said about women during service, so they twist the scriptures to fit their view. Because they certainly can't take what Paul said like it is, because that would be a contradiction, so they attempt to make his words look invalid today. Paul was clear for the women to be silent during service, but you don't like that. A woman fulfilling the prophecy of speaking the word of God does so outside the churches, not inside. So while you don't like Paul's words, he was still inspired by God when he wrote them. While they may seem too constricting for you, the inspiration came directly from GOD himself. Oh, one last thing..:-) Since I do believe that God's people are coming out of the churches, at least as long as women attempt to preach inside the churches, their not on the street trying to deceive people. While your crammed into your church building sitting in a church pew, God's children will be out doing God's work of spreading the word. I believe I'll concentrate a little more on why God's people are coming out of the churches. So they don't partake of her fornication, her lies, and false doctrines, such as the lie that women are actually permitted to speak in church service.

[Triple Crown]

And when you pray, do not keep on babbling like pagans, for they think they will be heard because of their many words
Matthew 6:7

[Bikn4God]

TC,

Thank you for your kindness. And may you continue YOUR good work!

Shalom,

CJ
SFFS

[Bikn4God]

GermanJoy,

I was raised in a home where my father was not there. My mother is a Godly woman who walks day to day with the Lord as her guide. My mother is not a "religious" woman, but she has a blind and loving faith in God. As hard times were many in our lives, we always got by because Mom would say, "I prayed to the Lord, and He will help us. " And she believed. And God delivered EVERYTIME. She was a true example of a woman living Christianity, not quoting it. She truly was and is, a spiritual leader.

My girlfriend is an ordained Christian minister. She is a loving, caring, and wonderful woman. And I will be marrying her soon, I hope. She shares the Word of God with so many people. She brings comfort to those who are sick and in the hospital, those who are emotionally or physically hurting, and those who have lost family and friends through death. She presents a wonderful childrens ministry and also she does ministry for shut in's and nursing home patients. She spends 12-14 hours per day doing ministry, sometimes 6 days per week.

I have a very good friend in Asheville, and she is also an ordained minister. This woman is a kind and Godly woman. She has led so many to Christ I can't even keep count. All that she does in her life revolves around Jesus. And the words that come from her blesses others.

I have seen so many talented, and gifted women in my ministry travels. They're not about trying to rule men or usurp authority. It's not a quest for power or getting upmanship on a man. It's about their love of God, and of Christ.

Another friend of mine, ( And one of my ministry members ) was married to a motorcycle gang member at one time. She broke away from that life and began a life with Christ. She's musically talented and also has a servants heart. She can do the work of ten men, and is totally devoted to it. I wish I had 10 more like her!

It amazes me that anyone would think that God would limit the spreading of the Word of God according to gender. I see no proof of it in scripture, and I've yet to hear a lucid, valid, argument against it.

I believe time is short and getting shorter. And we need both men and ladies out there bringing people to Christ.

Preach on.

CJ
SFFS

[hisway]

Amen CJ, Amen. "Not by Might nor by Power, but by My Spirit saieth the Lord."

IHS,

[blueheron32]

Bikn...Never have I said that women are not teachers, nor have I ever said that women do not minister in a wide variety of ways as the Holy Spirit gifts them...There is one very narrow restriction that I have insisted applies to them, as it applies to most other people.. and that is the offices of elder, deacon, bishop, during the time of the church age...It is not a rule I make... it is a rule established by God himself as he spoke through his apostles and prophets....your anecdotes about women who "you" judge to be great women of faith, in no way overturn the scriptures plain instruction. You may win the popular vote....:-)..... but majority rule does not determine truth....God is truth, and His word is truth....

blueheron32

[SCC]

The testimony of Scripture, church history and God's anointing upon women, all speak plainly for women being able to fulfill all positions of leadership in the Church such as apostle, prophet, pastor, evangelist, teacher, elder and deacon. The Lord clearly states in the Bible that in Jesus there is neither male nor female as we are all one in Christ (Gal 3:28).

[Chaplain Bob]

There are Scripture that say women should keep silent in the church and Paul said women should not teach men. I don't have those in front of me at the moment and will try to get back to you. IMO women cannot be Pastors, but I don't think there is a problem if they minister in other areas such as counseling, teaching children, etc.

[germanJoy]

GermanJoy,

I was raised in a home where my father was not there. My mother is a Godly woman who walks day to day with the Lord as her guide. My mother is not a "religious" woman, but she has a blind and loving faith in God. As hard times were many in our lives, we always got by because Mom would say, "I prayed to the Lord, and He will help us. " And she believed. And God delivered EVERYTIME. She was a true example of a woman living Christianity, not quoting it. She truly was and is, a spiritual leader.

My girlfriend is an ordained Christian minister. She is a loving, caring, and wonderful woman. And I will be marrying her soon, I hope. She shares the Word of God with so many people. She brings comfort to those who are sick and in the hospital, those who are emotionally or physically hurting, and those who have lost family and friends through death. She presents a wonderful childrens ministry and also she does ministry for shut in's and nursing home patients. She spends 12-14 hours per day doing ministry, sometimes 6 days per week....

Preach on.

CJ
SFFS
CJ, thanks for the word of exhortation and encouragement. And we, women, need 10 more like you! :) I too am flabbergasted by meeting christians who claim that God is no respecter of person/s but yet would put heavy loads on the shoulders of mankind just because of their gender and races.:-( We know how our Lord Jesus Christ dealt with this issue, to quote:

The scribes and the Pharisees have seated themselves in the chair of Moses; therefore all that they tell you, do and observe, but do not do according to their deeds; for they say things and do not do them. And they tie up heavy loads, and lay them on men's shoulders; but they themselves are unwilling to move them with so much as a finger.....v13 But woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites, because you shut off the kingdom of heaven from men; for you do not enter in yourselves, nor do you allow those who are entering to go in. Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites, because you devour widows' houses, even while for a pretense you make long prayers; therefore you shall receive greater condemnation. Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites, because you travel about on sea and land to make one proselyte; and when he becomes one, you make him twice as much a son of hell as yourselves. Woe to you, blind guides, who say "Whoever swears by the temple, that is nothing: but whoever swears by the gold of the temple, he is obligated. You fools and blind men: which is more important, the gold, or the temple that sanctified the gold?....v23 Woe to you scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you tithe mint and dill and cummin, and have neglected the weightier provisions of the law: justice and mercy and faithfulness, but these are the things you should have done without neglecting the others. You blind guides, who strain out a gnat and swallow a camel! Woe to you scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you clean the outside of the cup and of the dish, but inside they are full of robbery and self-indulgence. You blind Pharisee, first clean the inside of the cup and of the dish, so that the outside of it may become clean also. Woe to you scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you are like whitewashed tombs which on the outside appear beautiful, but inside they are full of dead men's bones and all uncleanness. Even so you too outwardly appear righteous to men, but inwardly you are full of hypocricy and lawlessness.....v33 You serpents, you brood of vipers, how shall you escape the sentence of hell? Therefore, behold, I am sending you prophets and wise men and scribes; some of them you will kill and crucify, and some of them you will scourge in your synagogues, and persecute from city to city....v 39 For I say to you, from now on you shall not see Me until you say, "Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord."

Do you know what I really adored so much of the life example lived by our Lord Jesus? He took notice and highly commended a sinful woman who washed His feet; He took notice and highly commended a poor woman who gave a penny to the offering; He took notice and released a condemned woman caught in adultery; He even took notice and fellowshiped with a Samaritan woman ("unbeliever") resulting to her salvation. He spoke words of commendation to these women which He never spoke to any men. Jesus clearly LIFTED UP women with His Word and in His heart. None of these things which Jesus did and said were ever done and said by any righteous male jews of His days, neither the scribes and the Pharisees nor Jesus' disciples. Unfortunately even today, only a few christian men like you follow the example of Jesus. And I pray that there will be tens of thousands more like you, CJ :-).

I pray that the self-righteous spirit that dominated the scribes and the Pharisees would not have a place in this site! And I speak forth the Lord's blessings and powerful anointing upon all the mighty women of God surrounding you, CJ... in the holy and precious name of Jesus. Amen!

God bless you mightily, brother.

germanJoy

[Whisper]

I believe that someone had a problem with the fact that there was no mention in the bible that women shouted out to the men in services in Paul's day and that that was the reason that Paul said women should keep silent because they were disrupting the services. That information comes from history. Not everything is in the bible. The bible doesn't say anything about computers yet they exist. Just because it's not it the bible doesn't make it untrue.

God has the right to choose whoever he desires to preach his word. We are neither... male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus(Galatians 3:28).
Deborah was a prophetess(judge) of God and she was God's choice. God can speak through anyone or anything he chooses afterall he spoke through a donkey to Balaam ....must have been a humbling experience.

And that is precisely the point, God has chosen the weak things of this world to put to shame the things which are mighty(1 Cor 1:27). Is not woman called the weaker vessel(1 Peter 3:7)? If Balaam (who was corrupt and full of pride) could humble himself enough to hear God's voice through a donkey then I think men should be humble enough to hear God's voice through a woman. Whether man or woman it is not us that speak but the Spirit of our Father who speaks in us(Matthew 10:20).

[roc64]

Great point Whisper.

There were several other messages here that were good but I dont see them anymore? Is there a reason why messages that may disagree with the leaders of this forum be deleted? I have noticed several times when points are brought out that what I would say where Gods Spirit induced messages seem to get removed if they are not alined with the higher members of this site!
Just a wondering thought as I thought this forum was open to all Christians as long as they did not proclaim other religions as greater than that of Christ?

Peace in the Lord

[blueheron32]

Roc64..

It is quite unusual for posts to be deleted...due to the topics in certain th