Question for Catholics.

[Rylee]

I have a quick question for any Catholics out there: What's up with the confessional? I mean, I know that in order to be forgiven, you have to confess your sins to a priest in confession. Why not just pray? Why do you have to go through a priest to talk to God? That's what I don't understand.

I guess I lied... I have one more question for Catholics, not just the one... ;) I've heard from some Catholics I know that it's good to pray to different saints for different things. Isn't that kind of like worshipping idols? I would never pray to anybody but God... so, if you need something, why not pray to God instead of praying to a statue that represents a saint?

[Fidelity]

I have a quick question for any Catholics out there: What's up with the confessional? I mean, I know that in order to be forgiven, you have to confess your sins to a priest in confession. Why not just pray? Why do you have to go through a priest to talk to God? That's what I don't understand.

I guess I lied... I have one more question for Catholics, not just the one... ;) I've heard from some Catholics I know that it's good to pray to different saints for different things. Isn't that kind of like worshipping idols? I would never pray to anybody but God... so, if you need something, why not pray to God instead of praying to a statue that represents a saint?
Rylee, I completely agree with you here. We are told that Christ is the only mediator between God and man.

1Ti 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

This clearly does not list other saints or a priest.

Fidelity

[OneJoe]

I have a quick question for any Catholics out there: What's up with the confessional? I mean, I know that in order to be forgiven, you have to confess your sins to a priest in confession. Why not just pray? Why do you have to go through a priest to talk to God? That's what I don't understand.

I guess I lied... I have one more question for Catholics, not just the one... ;) I've heard from some Catholics I know that it's good to pray to different saints for different things. Isn't that kind of like worshipping idols? I would never pray to anybody but God... so, if you need something, why not pray to God instead of praying to a statue that represents a saint?
Hello Rylee, clearly the bible does not tell us to confess to a priest or that a man can intercede for God to forgive our sins. Only Christ can do that. Also, as for the saints, many Catholics claim to be praying to the saints and asking them to pray for them. But yes they should be going straight to God with their prayers. The whol Catholic churchs seems more like a cult than anything. Another question you could ask and one I have often asked is where does the bible tell us to hale Marry? Clearly Marry was a blessed woman, the mother of Christ, but Christ did not tell us to lift her higher than him or pray to her more than Christ himself..:-)

[holliel99]

Onejoe,
I agree with everything you guys say about the Catholic church, but be careful! Don't call them a cult or anything if you know there may be Catholics on this website. I don't understand a lot of what Catholics believe or a lot of why they do the things they do. But you have to understand that a majority of Catholics were raised this way and it is the way that they worship God. If anything, I pray for the Catholic church and I pray for my Catholic friends. Let's not start putting down other denominations because we feel it is wrong. If these people really want to start living for Jesus Christ, He will reveal the true way to worship. My old Sunday School teacher was Catholic and she used to always say how she couldn't believe the way she used to worship. She just hadn't seen the true way yet. Let's not be judgemental, let's just explain why we don't understand and what the bible says about it, but not start looking down on them. They are doing what they think is right. I just read Romans 14 last night, so I guess that's why I feel strongly about this. No I don't believe the way the Catholics worship, but I do understand why someone brought up in a Catholic church feels that this is the way to ask forgiveness, to worship, etc... If we want to reach these people, we can't start name-calling or pointing fingers or judging, or they will never be reached. I guess this is just my opinion, but I feel strongly about it.

[Rylee]

My boyfriend is a former Catholic. When I first met him, back in high school, he was kind of trying to find himself and left the church altogether. He was questioning God's existance. While we were friends, he dated a non-denominational missionary (our group of high school friends and I are still baffled at how this happened; he was very much an atheist at this point!) She made him kind of explore the whole topic of religion again, and he found that while "religion" wasn't the answer to his problems, Christianity was. The missionary girl broke up with him to go to Taiwan, and my ex and I broke up after 3 years because I wouldn't go "that far" with him (he came to my house drunk one night and demanded that we "do the deed"... I told him no and he broke up with me on the spot. I was so shocked... after 3 years, for things to just go down like that). Anyhow, I started spending more time with my friend and a little while later we started dating. He has found that although he was raised Catholic, he doesn't agree with most of the things that Catholics believe. He has found that he is more comfortable in other churches than Catholic churches. At this point, I would say he's a non-denominational Christian. He just follows exactly what the bible says, and doesn't really believe anything other than what's written there in black and white. Of course, his parents think that I'm the one who pulled him from the church, and they despise me for this, among other things. Well, that's my personal story, and I suppose that's what prompted me to ask all of these questions.

[aussie]

I have a quick question for any Catholics out there: What's up with the confessional? I mean, I know that in order to be forgiven, you have to confess your sins to a priest in confession. Why not just pray? Why do you have to go through a priest to talk to God? That's what I don't understand.

I guess I lied... I have one more question for Catholics, not just the one... ;) I've heard from some Catholics I know that it's good to pray to different saints for different things. Isn't that kind of like worshipping idols? I would never pray to anybody but God... so, if you need something, why not pray to God instead of praying to a statue that represents a saint?


John 20:22-23
And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, "Receive ye the Holy Ghost: Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained."

Matthew 18:18
Verily I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

2 Corinthians 5:18
And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;

Jesus gave the apostles and their successors the authority to forgive sins after he had left this earth, so why did he do this if Christians of that time could simply pray to Jesus?

[JohnDillinger43]

I believe the question was for Catholics, not people who claim to know what Catholics believe ;) I've been a Catholic for a good long while, but I don't believe that any human institution is perfect, even the Church, and I don't believe that humans can ever perfectly understand God's will. Thus I have no problem taking some dogma with a grain of salt. I'm not sure what the official position of the Church is on confession. I think the main thing about the confessional is that it gives you someone to talk to. Of course you can confess your sins to God and be forgiven; the confessional is just a lifeline within the Church, so that you can talk to an actual person, receive a blessing, and be reassured that God has indeed forgiven you. Some people don't need that. I don't go to confession. Some people go every week. It's an individual thing, and the Catholic Church does not consider you a bad Catholic if you go very rarely.

As for saints, it's sort of the same thing as confession. When we pray to saints, we are not saying, "St. Christopher, protect me while I am traveling." We say, "St. Christopher, put in a good word for me with the Big Man." Maybe that seems kind of silly to you non-Catholics, and indeed, I never pray to saints, only directly to God, but that is the rationale behind it. In the Catholic Church there is a sense of hierarchy (and if you disagree with it I would like to point out that it existed in the early Church while Jesus was on earth) that includes God, the Saints such as Peter and Paul, the Pope, down through individual bishops, priests, and deacons. This sense of hierarchy does not exist in most other Churches, since it is true that we can always go straight to God with our problems.

[Redeemed777]

right on Rylee
ive read some of your other posts..bold man
your awesome keep it up man
remember alot of the cathilic stuff out there is alot of rumors
but im pretty sure the bow at statues though
love you man i be preying for you
food everyday
water
freedom
where is our everlasting praise????
kids in africa would praise all da for a tootsie roll

[blueheron32]

Jesus did not give them the "authority" to forgive sins...only God can forgive sins and only those sins are forgiven than Christ paid for at the cross as he endured the wrath of God in the place of all those he came to save...

Matthew 18:18
Verily I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

the above verse is not a very accurate translation, the way the verb tenses ae written there does imply that the first action is mans...and heaven responds.... but more accurately it is translated..

Whatsoever ye shall bind on earth shall be having been bound in heaven, and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be having been loosed in heaven.

the prior action is Gods, it is confirmed as the gospel is preached and the elect come to salvation having their sins forgiven...It is God alone who forgives, and God alone who saves.

blueheron32

[Rylee]

Redeemed777 - thanks, but I'm a girl. :)
I just call 'em like I see 'em... I'm not shy at all. I don't like to cause trouble, but if I've got something to say, I'll say it and have no issue with it. That's just who I am, and God loves me anyway. :D

[OneJoe]

Onejoe,
I agree with everything you guys say about the Catholic church, but be careful! Don't call them a cult or anything if you know there may be Catholics on this website. I don't understand a lot of what Catholics believe or a lot of why they do the things they do. But you have to understand that a majority of Catholics were raised this way and it is the way that they worship God. If anything, I pray for the Catholic church and I pray for my Catholic friends. Let's not start putting down other denominations because we feel it is wrong. If these people really want to start living for Jesus Christ, He will reveal the true way to worship. My old Sunday School teacher was Catholic and she used to always say how she couldn't believe the way she used to worship. She just hadn't seen the true way yet. Let's not be judgemental, let's just explain why we don't understand and what the bible says about it, but not start looking down on them. They are doing what they think is right. I just read Romans 14 last night, so I guess that's why I feel strongly about this. No I don't believe the way the Catholics worship, but I do understand why someone brought up in a Catholic church feels that this is the way to ask forgiveness, to worship, etc... If we want to reach these people, we can't start name-calling or pointing fingers or judging, or they will never be reached. I guess this is just my opinion, but I feel strongly about it.
Hello Holliel99, yes I guess we are all entitled to our opinion. Though I certainly stick with what I said and I don't apologize for my view. The Catholic church teaches lies and false doctrines. I have always spoke bodly about the lies they teach and will continue to do so. For as long as they teach lies, they will also have oposition from those that know the truth. Also I am aware of the presence of Catholics on this site. I happen to know a few who are, but I don't hide the truth either way. I've had many Catholics to get upset with me, but that is fine because if I remember correct, people of the same mind also killed Christ because they didn't like what he had to say. As long as God almighty has me here on this earth, I will continue to push forward, not step back and worry someone might not like the truth..:-)

God bless

[aussie]

The Catholic church teaches lies and false doctrines. I have always spoke bodly about the lies they teach and will continue to do so. For as long as they teach lies, they will also have oposition from those that know the truth.
God bless

By all means enlighten us, what are these “lies” you speak of? I Guarantee you that EVERY teaching of the Catholic Church is founded upon scripture, and that your beliefs are entirely unbiblical.

[OneJoe]

By all means enlighten us, what are these “lies” you speak of? I Guarantee you that EVERY teaching of the Catholic Church is founded upon scripture, and that your beliefs are entirely unbiblical.
What are the lies? Okay, first I will begin by saying if the bible doesn't support something as truth then it is a lie. So, first question is: Where does the bible tell us to hale Marry? Where are we told to pray to dead saints? Where does the bible say that man can forgive sins or intercede between God and man?

After you answer every one of these questions with scriptures from the bible then we will procede to other rituals of theirs. However, if you can not answer these with God's word then I rest my case. So are you ready to prove that what they do is biblical? If you can't, I would take another look at what you come to defend..:-)


Onejoe

[JohnDillinger43]

First of all, just because it has no basis in Scripture does not mean it is a LIE. The Catholic Church is not founded solely on Scripture, but on Scripture and Tradition, so I'll go ahead and say right out that not all of our traditions are scriptural. If you think no church should do anything that is not directly commanded us by God, then I don't have anything to say to you; I think that is an untenable position. As for the things you mentioned, you picked the easiest ones! Just look at previous posts for verses about authority vested in people on earth, and as the the Hail Mary, it is Scriptural, just like the Our Father. Because of the beliefs in both Scripture and Tradition, the Catholic Church does not hold Scripture as the only standard. As a result, my ability to quote chapter and verse are woefully underdeveloped (a situtation I'm working on remedying). Thus I cannot tell you exactly where the Hail Mary originates, but I believe it is when the angel appears to Mary and says something which was later phrased as, "Hail Mary, full of grace," and goes on later in that chapter to talk about "blessed are you and the fruit of thy womb," etc. As for asking for the intercession of the saints, we do not PRAY to the saints; that is idolatry. We ask for intercession with God on our behalf, and the Catholic Church does not believe that we cannot ask God directly. It's fine if you disagree with Catholic doctrine (I'm a Catholic and I disagree with some of it), but get the facts before you criticize.

[OneJoe]

First of all, just because it has no basis in Scripture does not mean it is a LIE. The Catholic Church is not founded solely on Scripture, but on Scripture and Tradition, so I'll go ahead and say right out that not all of our traditions are scriptural. If you think no church should do anything that is not directly commanded us by God, then I don't have anything to say to you; I think that is an untenable position. As for the things you mentioned, you picked the easiest ones! Just look at previous posts for verses about authority vested in people on earth, and as the the Hail Mary, it is Scriptural, just like the Our Father. Because of the beliefs in both Scripture and Tradition, the Catholic Church does not hold Scripture as the only standard. As a result, my ability to quote chapter and verse are woefully underdeveloped (a situtation I'm working on remedying). Thus I cannot tell you exactly where the Hail Mary originates, but I believe it is when the angel appears to Mary and says something which was later phrased as, "Hail Mary, full of grace," and goes on later in that chapter to talk about "blessed are you and the fruit of thy womb," etc. As for asking for the intercession of the saints, we do not PRAY to the saints; that is idolatry. We ask for intercession with God on our behalf, and the Catholic Church does not believe that we cannot ask God directly. It's fine if you disagree with Catholic doctrine (I'm a Catholic and I disagree with some of it), but get the facts before you criticize.
I knew someone would have to post something that was nothing but their opinion. The point in this board is to talk about the bible and the truth of the bible. The point in the questions I asked is that God never told anyone to hale Marry, pray to dead saints, that man could forgive sins..etc etc. And Yes you are right I did pick the easiest ones because even something so simple can not be proved by God's word.

If you think no church should do anything that is not directly commanded us by God, then I don't have anything to say to you

Well I guess you have nothing to say to me then do you. I believe in the word of God and ONLY the word of God. The bible is the reason we have this board. God's word is what counts, not what you like and don't like. Please, if your going to respond to the questions I ask, use the word of God.

[aussie]

What are the lies? Okay, first I will begin by saying if the bible doesn't support something as truth then it is a lie. So, first question is: Where does the bible tell us to hale Marry? Where are we told to pray to dead saints? Where does the bible say that man can forgive sins or intercede between God and man?

After you answer every one of these questions with scriptures from the bible then we will procede to other rituals of theirs. However, if you can not answer these with God's word then I rest my case. So are you ready to prove that what they do is biblical? If you can't, I would take another look at what you come to defend..:-)


Onejoe

Sir, you are the one who is making the accusations against the Roman Catholic Church, the onus of proof is upon you to prove the practices of the RCC wrong, not for me to prove them right.

As JohnDillinger43 has just stated there are some things that are part of sacred tradition as well as the bible

2 Thessalonians 2:15
Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.

2 Timothy 2:2
And the things that thou hast heard of me among many witnesses, the same commit thou to faithful men, who shall be able to teach others also.

2 John 1:12
Having many things to write unto you, I would not write with paper and ink: but I trust to come unto you, and speak face to face, that our joy may be full.

The bible also clearly states that not everything is included in the bible

John 20:30
Now Jesus did many other signs in the presence of (his) disciples that are not written in this book.

John 21:25
There are also many other things that Jesus did, but if these were to be described individually, I do not think the whole world would contain the books that would be written.

To the untrained eye there may some aspects of Catholic theology that are not clearly defined in the bible

2 Peter 3:15-16
[Speaking of Paul's writings] As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

Acts 8:30-31
And Philip ran thither to him, and heard him read the prophet Esaias, and said, "Understandest thou what thou readest?" And he said, "How can I, except some man should guide me?" And he desired Philip that he would come up and sit with him.

There may seem to be some doctrines of the RCC not clearly expressed in the bible, however there are NO Catholic teachings that contradict the bible, and if you feel there are feel free to post them here.

[OneJoe]

Sir, you are the one who is making the accusations against the Roman Catholic Church, the onus of proof is upon you to prove the practices of the RCC wrong, not for me to prove them right.

As JohnDillinger43 has just stated there are some things that are part of sacred tradition as well as the bible

2 Thessalonians 2:15
Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.

2 Timothy 2:2
And the things that thou hast heard of me among many witnesses, the same commit thou to faithful men, who shall be able to teach others also.

2 John 1:12
Having many things to write unto you, I would not write with paper and ink: but I trust to come unto you, and speak face to face, that our joy may be full.

The bible also clearly states that not everything is included in the bible

John 20:30
Now Jesus did many other signs in the presence of (his) disciples that are not written in this book.

John 21:25
There are also many other things that Jesus did, but if these were to be described individually, I do not think the whole world would contain the books that would be written.

To the untrained eye there may some aspects of Catholic theology that are not clearly defined in the bible

2 Peter 3:15-16
[Speaking of Paul's writings] As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

Acts 8:30-31
And Philip ran thither to him, and heard him read the prophet Esaias, and said, "Understandest thou what thou readest?" And he said, "How can I, except some man should guide me?" And he desired Philip that he would come up and sit with him.

There may seem to be some doctrines of the RCC not clearly expressed in the bible, however there are NO Catholic teachings that contradict the bible, and if you feel there are feel free to post them here.
They don't contradict the bible? I disagree! With just two verses I can show where the Catholics are wrong.

1Ti 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

Joh 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

So when they hale Marry or pray to Marry or the deceased Saints to pray for them or to intercede for them, are they going to God through Christ? That answer is certainly No the are not. The bible is clear that no one can come to God except through Christ and they are not doing this if their going to the Saints to intercede for them. Also, the bible is clear as well that only Christ can forgive sins, but yet the Roman Catholic church has priests acting as if they were God and forgiving sins.

2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
2Th 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshiped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.

[aussie]

Onejoe,


1Ti 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

Joh 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

This is 100% true! No one can come to the Father but through Christ. This doesn’t mean that others can’t help us in our spiritual journey. Christ is the only mediator; however Christ chooses to use people in this process. If a pastor gives an empowering sermon that draws you closer to God has he bypassed Christ? No, instead he is being used by Christ to bring us closer to God.

So when they hale Marry or pray to Marry or the deceased Saints to pray for them or to intercede for them, are they going to God through Christ? That answer is certainly No the are not. The bible is clear that no one can come to God except through Christ and they are not doing this if their going to the Saints to intercede for them

Romans 15:30
Now I beseech you, brethren, for the Lord Jesus Christ's sake, and for the love of the Spirit, that ye strive together with me in your prayers to God for me;

Colossians 4:2-3
Continue in prayer, and watch in the same with thanksgiving; Withal praying also for us, that God would open unto us a door of utterance, to speak the mystery of Christ, for which I am also in bonds:

2 Corinthians 1:11
Ye also helping together by prayer for us, that for the gift bestowed upon us by the means of many persons thanks may be given by many on our behalf.

1 Thessalonians 5:25
Brethren, pray for us.

2 Thessalonians 1:11
Wherefore also we pray always for you, that our God would count you worthy of this calling, and fulfil all the good pleasure of his goodness, and the work of faith with power:

Acts 12:5
Peter therefore was kept in prison: but prayer was made without ceasing of the church unto God for him.

1 Timothy 2:1-3
I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men; for kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty. For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;

James 5:16
Pray one for another... The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man
availeth much.

Were the authors of these sacred letters committing a sin? After all they are asking others to pray for them. The act of intersession or asking for that intersession is clearly biblical.

[OneJoe]

Onejoe,



This is 100% true! No one can come to the Father but through Christ. This doesn’t mean that others can’t help us in our spiritual journey. Christ is the only mediator; however Christ chooses to use people in this process. If a pastor gives an empowering sermon that draws you closer to God has he bypassed Christ? No, instead he is being used by Christ to bring us closer to God.



Romans 15:30
Now I beseech you, brethren, for the Lord Jesus Christ's sake, and for the love of the Spirit, that ye strive together with me in your prayers to God for me;

Colossians 4:2-3
Continue in prayer, and watch in the same with thanksgiving; Withal praying also for us, that God would open unto us a door of utterance, to speak the mystery of Christ, for which I am also in bonds:

2 Corinthians 1:11
Ye also helping together by prayer for us, that for the gift bestowed upon us by the means of many persons thanks may be given by many on our behalf.

1 Thessalonians 5:25
Brethren, pray for us.

2 Thessalonians 1:11
Wherefore also we pray always for you, that our God would count you worthy of this calling, and fulfil all the good pleasure of his goodness, and the work of faith with power:

Acts 12:5
Peter therefore was kept in prison: but prayer was made without ceasing of the church unto God for him.

1 Timothy 2:1-3
I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men; for kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty. For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;

James 5:16
Pray one for another... The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man
availeth much.

Were the authors of these sacred letters committing a sin? After all they are asking others to pray for them. The act of intersession or asking for that intersession is clearly biblical.
Aussie, God using a pastor to deliver his word is no different than what he has commanded all his children to do. We are all told to spread the word. But God does not allow us to forgive sins and grant salvation does he?

As for the scriptures you posted on the prayers, were those to living people or to dead? Were they asking the living people to pray for them or did they pray to dead saints or prophets? From what i've read they asked the living, fellow brethren, to pray for them, not the dead. When they were not asking the living to pray for them, they were going straight to God through his son Jesus Christ. So again, it does not justify nor make legal what the RCC does as a ritual or practise.


God bless

Onejoe

[Bikn4God]

Rylie,

In Catholicism, they require a person to come in and make confession to God, through the Priest. Kind of ritualistic, but that's how Catholicism is. In Protestantism... we confess to Christ directly.

As far as "Saint Worship"....many people confuse that. Catholics are not worshipping the saints. They pray to them asking for intercession. It strikes me funny that people say that about Catholics. I see many people go in chat rooms and ask others to pray for them. Is that not intercessory prayer?

I'm not a Catholic. And I do none of the above mentioned things. But I do cut them some slack when need be. I don't agree with alot of their doctrine. But I can say that about many denominations, not just Catholicism.

CJ
SFFS

[Raven21633]

They don't contradict the bible? I disagree! With just two verses I can show where the Catholics are wrong.

1Ti 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

Joh 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

So when they hale Marry or pray to Marry or the deceased Saints to pray for them or to intercede for them, are they going to God through Christ? That answer is certainly No the are not. The bible is clear that no one can come to God except through Christ and they are not doing this if their going to the Saints to intercede for them. Also, the bible is clear as well that only Christ can forgive sins, but yet the Roman Catholic church has priests acting as if they were God and forgiving sins.

2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
2Th 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshiped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.

Well, to some degree ALL modern Christian denominations contridict's the Bible, and even the Bible its-self contridicts it's-self.

In fact, if we want to argue on Sola Scriptura, where in the new covenant does it say we have the right to move the Sabbath from the 7th day, where God put it, to the 1st day? Or indeed to set aside 1 random day of the week for observations?

When we observe the many Judeo-Christian religions in the world, it seems as if we are looking at a jig-saw puzzle, all have a peice of the truth, but none seem to have the whole truth. For this reason we can debate the differences between our various denominations till kindom come, yet while we find fault with the chosen practices and doctrine of others, we blind ourselves to the fault within our own belief structure.

Since we each hold a key to the kingdom, only by coming together in the spirit of Compassion and Understanding will we ever be able to gain the whole truth.

I'm afraid I don't understand the relevance of 2 Thesolonians 2:3 to this discussion. It's an incomplete thought based entirely upon Daniel 11:36-39 and he's reiterating it here to make the point that the "Parousia" (or Holy War that must precede the second coming of Christ) is not yet.

God Bless
~ Raven ~

[aussie]

Onejoe,

As for the scriptures you posted on the prayers, were those to living people or to dead? Were they asking the living people to pray for them or did they pray to dead saints or prophets? From what i've read they asked the living, fellow brethren, to pray for them, not the dead. When they were not asking the living to pray for them, they were going straight to God through his son Jesus Christ. So again, it does not justify nor make legal what the RCC does as a ritual or practise.

It also does not make it illegal. There are no passages that condemn praying to/ asking for intersession from saints that are now in heaven, do you know of any? Catholics believe that we are all part of the Mystical Body of Christ; this means that we are all alive in Christ and are one. This means that we can never be separated not even by death, thus we should not make the distinction between “dead” and “alive”.

Is this belief in the Mystical Body of Christ accepted by protestants? Im not sure whether it is or not.

As for the forgiveness of sins please see post #6, I’ve already written something on that.

God bless
Aussie

[germanJoy]

I believe the question was for Catholics, not people who claim to know what Catholics believe ;) I've been a Catholic for a good long while, but I don't believe that any human institution is perfect, even the Church, and I don't believe that humans can ever perfectly understand God's will. Thus I have no problem taking some dogma with a grain of salt. I'm not sure what the official position of the Church is on confession. I think the main thing about the confessional is that it gives you someone to talk to. Of course you can confess your sins to God and be forgiven; the confessional is just a lifeline within the Church, so that you can talk to an actual person, receive a blessing, and be reassured that God has indeed forgiven you. Some people don't need that. I don't go to confession. Some people go every week. It's an individual thing, and the Catholic Church does not consider you a bad Catholic if you go very rarely.

It is nowhere found in the bible to confess our sins to Catholic priests. The whole body of Christ, the bride, are the priests. I am a priest and anyone believing and obeying the WORD OF GOD ALONE. If Catholics have problems obeying the Word of God, then they can never be God's priests.

and He (Jesus) has made us (believers) to be a kingdom, priests to His God and Father;.... Rev. 1:6

Therefore since we are all priests (1 Peter 2:9 But you are a chosen race, a royal PRIESTHOOD, a holy nation, a people for God's own possession...), we are to confess our sins to ONE ANOTHER.

Therefore, confess your sins to one another, and pray for one another, so that you may be healed. The effective prayer of a righteous man can accomplish much. James 5:16

As for saints, it's sort of the same thing as confession. When we pray to saints, we are not saying, "St. Christopher, protect me while I am traveling." We say, "St. Christopher, put in a good word for me with the Big Man." Maybe that seems kind of silly to you non-Catholics, and indeed, I never pray to saints, only directly to God, but that is the rationale behind it. In the Catholic Church there is a sense of hierarchy (and if you disagree with it I would like to point out that it existed in the early Church while Jesus was on earth) that includes God, the Saints such as Peter and Paul, the Pope, down through individual bishops, priests, and deacons. This sense of hierarchy does not exist in most other Churches, since it is true that we can always go straight to God with our problems.

Do you know that the saints you are calling up are dead? Do you know that calling up the dead is DETESTABLE to the Lord?

There shall not be found among you anyone who makes his son or his daughter pass through the fire, one who uses divination, one who practices witchcraft, or one who interprets omens, or a sorcerer, or one who casts a spell, or a medium, or a spiritist, or one who calls up the dead. For whoever does thiese things is detestable to the Lord; and because of these detestable things the Lord your God will drive them out before you. Deuteronomy 18:10-12

God wants only JESUS CHRIST to be the mediator/intercessor between Him and man, no other human being but His own Son alone. And anyone who uses any name or names of saints to replace the ROLE of Christ as a mediator/intercessor is DISOBEYING God's commandment and is according to the Scripture an UNBELIEVER provoking God to anger.

[Fidelity]

Well, to some degree ALL modern Christian denominations contridict's the Bible, and even the Bible its-self contridicts it's-self.

In fact, if we want to argue on Sola Scriptura, where in the new covenant does it say we have the right to move the Sabbath from the 7th day, where God put it, to the 1st day? Or indeed to set aside 1 random day of the week for observations?

When we observe the many Judeo-Christian religions in the world, it seems as if we are looking at a jig-saw puzzle, all have a peice of the truth, but none seem to have the whole truth. For this reason we can debate the differences between our various denominations till kindom come, yet while we find fault with the chosen practices and doctrine of others, we blind ourselves to the fault within our own belief structure.

Since we each hold a key to the kingdom, only by coming together in the spirit of Compassion and Understanding will we ever be able to gain the whole truth.

I'm afraid I don't understand the relevance of 2 Thesolonians 2:3 to this discussion. It's an incomplete thought based entirely upon Daniel 11:36-39 and he's reiterating it here to make the point that the "Parousia" (or Holy War that must precede the second coming of Christ) is not yet.

God Bless
~ Raven ~
Raven, I agree that most denominations do in fact contradict the bible in some ways, but the bible does not contradict itself. Anyone who thinks this needs to take another look at what their reading. As far as your asking if we can move the Sabbath day then the answer is no we can not move it, but God can and in fact did make Sunday the Sabbath.

Also, you would see the relevance of 2 Thess 2:3 if you believed as some others do, but apparently not. Some believe the falling away in 2 Thess, where Satan takes his seat in the temple, will in fact take place before Christ returns and therefore deceive many people. Or maybe I should say has taken his seat since the churches clearly don't preach the truth these days. But you don't see the relevance because you got this idea that Christ returns before everything happens, at least that is what I draw from you reply to onejoe.

Fidelity

[germanJoy]

It also does not make it illegal. There are no passages that condemn praying to/ asking for intersession from saints that are now in heaven, do you know of any? Catholics believe that we are all part of the Mystical Body of Christ; this means that we are all alive in Christ and are one. This means that we can never be separated not even by death, thus we should not make the distinction between “dead” and “alive”.

Is this belief in the Mystical Body of Christ accepted by protestants? Im not sure whether it is or not.
Aussie
Do you read your bible, Aussie? Have you not read that God is the God of the living and not the God of the dead? Have you not read that God DETEST OR HATES STRONGLY a person who prays or calls up the dead?

There shall not be found among you anyone who makes his son or his daughter pass through the fire, one who uses divination, one who practices witchcraft, or one who interprets omens, or a sorcerer, or one who casts a spell, or a medium, or a spiritist, or one who calls up the dead. For whoever does these things is detestable to the Lord; and because of these detestable things the Lord your God will drive them out before you. Deuteronomy 18:10-12

Aussie, I was born a Catholic and raised up maybe more Catholic than any Catholics in this website (devoted to Jesus, Mary and Joseph; praying to and kissing all the statutes of the saints at our altar at home everyday; religiously making processions and rosary prayers, etc. etc.). All Catholics are blinded (some are innocent who will be shown mercy if they repent; some are ignorant; some are naive; some are guilty who are destined to receive God's wrath) and as long as they hardened their hearts to GOD'S WORD, they will never be able to see, hear, and understand the things of God because of the lies and the wrong doctrines given unto them.

The Catholic Church is not a cult, it is an apostate church. An apostate church is one that had recognized the truth (trinity and the bible) but had fallen away from the truth and had deceived and led many astray. They are what Jesus called "blind guiding the blind; both will fall into the pit".

If I have to take up all the false teachings of the Catholic Church, I would be needing another thread. They are TOOOOO many, much more than one can ever imagine!

One important issue I can cite as an example is the MAKING OF IMAGES (statues of Mary, Jesus, Joseph, and many saints). Although God had always been terribly angry of IDOL MAKING and worshipping, the Catholic Church not only promotes it but practices idol making and worshipping. Do not tell me catholics are not worshipping idols. I including ALL THE CATHOLICS I have ever known then (and now) worshipped the idols of Mary, etc. (in my heart, in my mind and with my words) since I was born until I left the catholic chuch.

You shall not make for yourself an idol, or any likeness/image of what is in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the water under the earth. You shall not worship them or serve them; for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children, on the third and the fourth generation of those who hate Me. Exodus 20:4-5 Anyone who worship idols HATES THE LORD.

4 Idol makers all amount to nothing, and their precious works are of no avail, as they themselves give witness. To their shame, they neither see nor know anything; and they are more deaf than men are.
10
Indeed, all the associates of anyone who forms a god, or casts an idol to no purpose, will be put to shame;
11
they will all assemble and stand forth, to be reduced to fear and shame.
12
The smith fashions an iron image, works it over the coals, shapes it with hammers, and forges it with his strong arm. He is hungry and weak, drinks no water and becomes exhausted.
13
The carpenter stretches a line and marks with a stylus the outline of an idol. He shapes it with a plane and measures it off with a compass, making it like a man in appearance and dignity, to occupy a shrine.
14
He cuts down cedars, takes a holm or an oak, and lays hold of other trees of the forest, which the Lord had planted and the rain made grow
15
to serve man for fuel. With a part of their wood he warms himself, or makes a fire for baking bread; but with another part he makes a god which he adores, an idol which he worships.
16
Half of it he burns in the fire, and on its embers he roasts his meat; he eats what he has roasted until he is full, and then warms himself and says, "Ah! I am warm, I feel the fire."
17
Of what remains he makes a god, his idol, and prostrate before it in worship, he prays to it, "Rescue me, for you are my god."
18
The idols have neither knowledge nor reason; their eyes are coated so that they cannot see, and their hearts so that they cannot understand.
Isaiah Cahpter 44 relates on the manner how one makes an idol and that exactly is how catholics make their idols too.

Being then the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Divine Nature is like gold or silver or stone, an image formed by the art and thought of man. Therefore having overlooked the times of ignorance, God is now declaring to men that all everwhere should repent. Acts 17:29

But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death. Rev. 21:8

According to the Word of God, anyone who has a STATUE, an IDOL, and prays or bows to this IDOL/STATUE is an IDOLATER. The Catholic church is filled with these idols. For all catholics to return to the God of Israel, who is a JEALOUS God, they MUST DESTROY AND BURN their idols/statues down. That is the COMMANDMENT God gave also to the Israelites everytime they made idols for themselves.

[Rylee]

Okay, I understand what you're saying. And I understand about the intercessory prayer. This is my conclusion about that though: when people ask others to pray for them, I think it's more of a support thing. It feels good to know that others actually care and to be able to share your problems, and knowing that they're being pro-active (by praying) and that they want to make a difference. But, when praying TO the saints, to say, "Please tell God this and this and this...", that's what I don't understand. Do they really think that it makes a difference to ask something particular of a particular saint, rather than to just lay their cares on God himself?

[germanJoy]

Bikn4God, you do not know what you are saying but I know because I was once a very devoted Catholic. We hailed Mary, we see her as HOLY as God. Not only Mary but of course, THE POPE. Any catholic seeing the pope from afar gets A THRILL/AWESOME (which should only be due to God) feeling of adoration and praise. Not only the Mary and the Pope, but also all the saints, the little statues, prayer book, etc. which we had to carry in our bags so that wherever we go (since this is how we were taught) these things will protect us from evil. You say Catholics are not worshipping saints? You are quite naive if you say so. They never worship God (they cannot their spirits are dead to be able to do so; one can only worship God in spirit and in truth), they only worship SAINTS, humans.

HAIL MARY, full of grace, the Lord is with thee; blessed art thou among women, and blessed is the Fruit of thy womb, Jesus. Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death. Amen


Have you ever heard of this prayer? All catholics MUST pray that Mary is holy EVERYDAY. Where in the bible does it say that Mary was holy??? NOWHERE!!!

There is no one holy like the Lord, Indeed there is no one besides Thee. Nor is there any rock like our God. 1 Samuel 2:2

Mary herself was exalting the Lord. She recognized her humble state of being a sinner who needed a Saviour. And yet the Catholic made a god out of her and treated her as holy as the Lord. Worst of all, they made a statue of her where signs and wonders have been manifested to deceive many. On top of this, they declared her to be sinless even from the womb of her mother. That is A LIE as confirmed by Mary's own words.

And Mary said: My soul exalts the Lord, and my spirit has rejoiced in God my Saviour. For He has regard for the humble state of His bondslave. Luke 1:47-48

[Rylee]

I'm curious as to how all of this started. I see the scriptures and what they say, so why did the Catholics branch off and start putting such stock in saints and "fathers" and such? Just curious if anybody knows the background of why Catholics stopped taking their cares directly to God and why they started ranking people up there with God (without getting in to a whole lot of detail, because I know the background of Catholicism would take hours and hours to read!) Thanks!

[JohnDillinger43]

GermanJoy: If what you said about your Catholic background is true, you were led astray by people who do not understand the Church's teaching. I am a Catholic, and I have NEVER been taught that Mary is as holy as God. To address certain things people have raised, I still do not see the difference between asking your friend to pray for you and asking a saint to pray for you. Your quote, GermanJoy, was necessarily from the Old Testament, which was written before Christ came and brought us everlasting life. There was a line between the living and the dead before Christ saved us, and when he came he obliterated it, giving us all eternal life. If you put so much stock in random Old Testament passages, I suppose you also don't eat pork? Or anything that mixes dairy and meat? Or any of the other 613 rules that Jews follow and we no longer do?

Rylee: Some of our practices must seem strange, I'm sure, but what people need to realize is that the Protestants are the ones that branched off! 500 years ago EVERYONE (well, every Christian) worshiped as we Catholics still do today, and when Martin Luther started the schism, the Protestant churches began dropping a lot of the rituals and dogma that they disagreed with. Before the split, all people believe as Catholics do, at least ostensibly. The Catholic Church comes from an unbroken line of leaders stretching back to Peter himself, and while I won't pretend that some of those leaders have been extremely corrupt (just look at most of the last millenium, especially the Middle Ages), I just like to point out that Protestants are the ones who changed things.

[Rylee]

Okay... but where in the bible does it say that you should worship the way that you do? By "the way that you do", I mean worshipping to saints, and Mary, and all of that?

And if you don't, then why do you pray to them? That was the question that started all of this. If you're looking for someone to talk to God for you, I don't understand the purpose of that. Who needs a mediator when God is listening to you even right now? I mean, a lot of it just seems like rituals. God isn't impressed by rituals, he's impressed by what's in your heart, your mind, and your soul. You can ritualize all you want, but it doesn't mean that you've accepted Jesus in to your heart and have been saved.

[germanJoy]

GermanJoy: If what you said about your Catholic background is true, you were led astray by people who do not understand the Church's teaching. I am a Catholic, and I have NEVER been taught that Mary is as holy as God. To address certain things people have raised, I still do not see the difference between asking your friend to pray for you and asking a saint to pray for you. Your quote, GermanJoy, was necessarily from the Old Testament, which was written before Christ came and brought us everlasting life. There was a line between the living and the dead before Christ saved us, and when he came he obliterated it, giving us all eternal life. If you put so much stock in random Old Testament passages, I suppose you also don't eat pork? Or anything that mixes dairy and meat? Or any of the other 613 rules that Jews follow and we no longer do?

Rylee: Some of our practices must seem strange, I'm sure, but what people need to realize is that the Protestants are the ones that branched off! 500 years ago EVERYONE (well, every Christian) worshiped as we Catholics still do today, and when Martin Luther started the schism, the Protestant churches began dropping a lot of the rituals and dogma that they disagreed with. Before the split, all people believe as Catholics do, at least ostensibly. The Catholic Church comes from an unbroken line of leaders stretching back to Peter himself, and while I won't pretend that some of those leaders have been extremely corrupt (just look at most of the last millenium, especially the Middle Ages), I just like to point out that Protestants are the ones who changed things.
Which "Old testament only" are you talking about? Is Luke 1:47-48 Old testament to you? Don't you pray "Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners.."? If not, then you are not a Catholic. Do you say your rosary "Holy (no sin) Mary"? Why do you deny that Catholics believe that Mary is holy? Isn't it you mentioned that she was immaculate (no sin) even from her mother's womb? NO ONE is holy except God.

If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves, ad the truth is not in us...If we say we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us. 1 John 1:8-10 (NEW TESTAMENT) The Catholics are saying God is a liar and the Word of God is not in them because they claim Mary as sinless (immaculate).

Is Romans 1:22-25 also Old Testament to you?

Professing to be wise, they became fools, and exchanged the glory of the incorruptible God for an image in the form of corruptible man and of birds and four-footed animals and crawling creatures. Therefore God gave them over in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, that their bodies might be dishonored among them. For they exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen Mary is a creature not the Creator, she is worshiped and served. The New Testament is very clear on teaching that IDOLATERS have no place in the kingdom of God. If you are one as a Catholic, you need to repent!

I was not led astray by people who do not understand the Church's teaching; I was led astray by the priests who taught us these teachings and the priests who were taught by the bishops, the bishops taught by the cardinals, the cardinals taught by the POPE (the whole Catholic clan is responsible). If you deny that what I am saying here about the Catholic teaching is true, then you are denying your Catholic beliefs.

[JohnDillinger43]

Saying no one is holy but God seems fairly unreasonable to me, at least by my definition. If you mean "holy" to be "perfect," then yes, no one is holy but God. That is not what the word holy means, however. A holy person is one who dedicates themselves to God and leading a moral life. There are many holy men and women in the world today, and there have always been. As for the Immaculate Conception, I think that does have a basis in Scripture, but I'm not sure, so I won't go down that road. Regardless of whether it does or not, it is one of our beliefs, and is not contradicted by the Bible. Show me the verse where it says, "Mary was conceived in sin." That is the only way you can scripturally contradict our statement that "Mary was conceived without sin." I also think you are misinterpreting what that means. It would be blasphemous indeed to say that Mary never sinned.

Catholics believe in concupiscence, or "original sin," which comes down to us from the Fall of Man. We all share in Adam's original rejection of God, and thus when we are conceived in the womb we are already sinners, though we have not acted at all and not had the opportunity to sin ourselves. We are already sinners in that we are human and we share in the legacy of all that means. At baptism all our sin is wiped clean, and thus we have a clean slate to dirty up again throughout our lives. Catholics believe that Mary was conceived WITHOUT this original sin, because she was chosen by God to bear His son. Of course Mary sinned during her lifetime, but she is unique in that she carried the Son of God in her womb, and herself was conceived without original sin because God intended her from her conception to carry His son.

And for Rylee: not everything we do has basis in Scripture. Why do something that doesn't have a basis in Scripture? Well, the answer for Catholics today is that it is Tradition, it has always been done this way, and we respect the decisions of our forefathers. As for why the very first Christians instituted these practices, who knows? Perhaps they came from teachings of Jesus that were not written down in the Gospels. Perhaps they came from Peter or Paul who instituted them in the early Church. Perhaps they came later as a means of preserving faith or some other goal. Everyone has rituals and beliefs not discussed in the Bible, though. I think the example of switching the Sabbath to Sunday is a good one. It doesn't say anything about that in the Bible, yet almost all Christians celebrate Sunday as the Sabbath, instead of Saturday as it says in the Bible.

[sisterinJesus]

.... I still do not see the difference between asking your friend to pray for you and asking a saint to pray for you.


You don't?
I do, my Christian friends are living and the Bible says God hears their prayers as He does mine as a born-again believer in Jesus.

James 5:16 - Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much.

Luke 11:1-4 ...Lord, teach us to pray...And He said unto them, When ye pray, say Our Father (not Mary or any saints or any dead relative) which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name, Thy kingdom come, Thy will be done, as in heaven, so in earth. Give us day by day our daily bread. And forgive us our sins; for we also forgive every one that is indebted to us. And lead us not into temptation; but deliver us from evil.

Jesus told us how to pray. Why aren't we all listening to His words?

My mother died a born-again Christian but I don't pray to her and ask her to pray to the Father for me. Jesus said I have direct connection to the Father. I see no where in the Bible where it says she even knows what is going on down here on earth. I think she is too busy sitting at the feet of Jesus to be concerned about what is going on down here. :-)

Could you please share that scripture with me? The one that says a person in heaven can pray for me. Maybe I missed it.

[JohnDillinger43]

I'm sorry, but I'm getting really tired of people asking where in Scripture it says stuff. In case you haven't read the first FIVE THOUSAND posts on the topic, not all Catholic doctrine in based on Scripture. Here it is in caps so everyone will notice: CATHOLICS BELIEVE IN THE TWIN SOURCES OF AUTHORITY OF SCRIPTURE AND TRADITION. NOT EVERYTHING WE DO OR BELIEVE IS BASED ON SCRIPTURE. It's fine if you disagree with that. Saying that a ritual not based on Scripture is a bad ritual is a valid criticism. If that's what you people are saying in a roundabout, mocking way by asking where in Scripture it says that, why don't you grow up and try having a civil conversation.

[likeadeerpantsforwater]

Prrove me wrong if i am, but isn't Catholicism a lot about tradition, seemingly more so than about religion. e.g. it is traditional for only men to be priests in the Catholic church, do regardless of any teachings in the bible, there are still no women priests in the Catholic church?

Also, isn't ecumenicity (probably not a word but you know what i mean) important? What are your views should the church work harder towards an ecumenical system?

[Rylee]

"Ecumenical thinking" will never happen. People are too different and have many, many different opinions. There are too many different religions in the world. We can pray for people to be saved and find Jesus, but having us all believe the exact same thing isn't going to happen. I myself would only want to take part in an ecumenical movement if everybody agreed that we should just live based on what the Bible says and nothing else, but that's not going to happen, so we might as well just forget it. It's one thing for us to all get along, and love each other, and respect each other's opinions, but we each have our own individual beliefs, and as long as we all have been saved and are going to Heaven and are striving to be the best Christians we can be, then that's all that really matters.

[sisterinJesus]

I'm sorry, but I'm getting really tired of people asking where in Scripture it says stuff. In case you haven't read the first FIVE THOUSAND posts on the topic, not all Catholic doctrine in based on Scripture. Here it is in caps so everyone will notice: CATHOLICS BELIEVE IN THE TWIN SOURCES OF AUTHORITY OF SCRIPTURE AND TRADITION. NOT EVERYTHING WE DO OR BELIEVE IS BASED ON SCRIPTURE. It's fine if you disagree with that. Saying that a ritual not based on Scripture is a bad ritual is a valid criticism. If that's what you people are saying in a roundabout, mocking way by asking where in Scripture it says that, why don't you grow up and try having a civil conversation.


I'm sorry if I offended you. It was a serious inquiry that I posted. I really wanted to know if there was some scripture that stated that. Since I do believe that God's Word is the 'living word', He doesn't always illuminate things to me at the same time that he illuminates it to others. And then it is up to me (and the Holy Spirit within me) to decide if it is a proper interputation of His Word. This is how I learn. Now I know (that it is based on tradition)...thank you for answering my question. :-)

[germanJoy]

Saying no one is holy but God seems fairly unreasonable to me, at least by my definition. If you mean "holy" to be "perfect," then yes, no one is holy but God. That is not what the word holy means, however. A holy person is one who dedicates themselves to God and leading a moral life. There are many holy men and women in the world today, and there have always been.

Anyone who claims he is holy in the world today in this flesh has made God a liar and the Word of God is not in him. If you claim that then you are a liar.

1 John 1:8-10

As for the Immaculate Conception, I think that does have a basis in Scripture, but I'm not sure, so I won't go down that road. Regardless of whether it does or not, it is one of our beliefs, and is not contradicted by the Bible. Show me the verse where it says, "Mary was conceived in sin." That is the only way you can scripturally contradict our statement that "Mary was conceived without sin." I also think you are misinterpreting what that means.

The Immaculate Conception is neither in Scripture nor does it have a basis in Scripture. It is a big lie from the pits of hell itself. Mary like us was conceived in sin. A sinner acknowledges his need of a Saviour. And Mary acknowledged God as her Saviour. She also recognized her "humble state" (as a sinner). By the way, ALL ("HUMANS") HAVE SINNED AND FALL SHORT OF THE GLORY OF GOD (Romans 3:23). Mary is a human being, is she not? If you see her as "holy" then she is to you a God and not a human being. That makes you having more than one God.

Luke 2:46-48

It would be blasphemous indeed to say that Mary never sinned.

Heeehhh???? Could you please elaborate?

Catholics believe in concupiscence, or "original sin," which comes down to us from the Fall of Man. We all share in Adam's original rejection of God, and thus when we are conceived in the womb we are already sinners, though we have not acted at all and not had the opportunity to sin ourselves. We are already sinners in that we are human and we share in the legacy of all that means. At baptism all our sin is wiped clean, and thus we have a clean slate to dirty up again throughout our lives. Catholics believe that Mary was conceived WITHOUT this original sin, because she was chosen by God to bear His son. Of course Mary sinned during her lifetime, but she is unique in that she carried the Son of God in her womb, and herself was conceived without original sin because God intended her from her conception to carry His son.

To assume that Mary was sinless in the womb of her mother is a belief that is UNSCRIPTURAL. The Word of God tells that all of us including Mary are born in sin. Mary was a virgin when she carried Jesus in her womb, that made Jesus (ALONE) not to inherit the original sin. Thus, Jesus alone is SINLESS. A virgin womb carrying a child from the Holy Spirit means PURITY, free of sin. Mary herself sinned and thus she cried out: "God my Saviour."

[germanJoy]

JohnDillinger, if you come here just for men's TRADITIONS then you are really just wasting your time. This website is to LIFT UP JESUS CHRIST and HIS WORD. So if you come here with a heart to search for the HEAVENLY TREASURE, you will be more productive and make use of your time here on earth.

The kingdom of heaven is like a treasure hidden in the field, which a man found and hid; and from joy over it he goes and sells all that he has, and buys that field. Again, the kingdom of heaven is like a merchant seeking fine pearls, and upon finding one pearl of great value, he went and sold all that he had, and bought it. Matthew 13:44-46

Are you willing to throw away the traditions of men and start LOOKING FOR THE PEARL WITH GREAT VALUE which is THE WORD OF GOD? :-)

[blueheron32]

"In fact, if we want to argue on Sola Scriptura, where in the new covenant does it say we have the right to move the Sabbath from the 7th day, where God put it, to the 1st day? Or indeed to set aside 1 random day of the week for observations?"

here is a link for you Raven...In answer to your question...The scriptures do indeed demonstrate the movement of the sabbath from the seventh day to the first....It is only by "sola scriptura" that such a change could be authoritatively made...

http://www.christianchatforum.com/sabbath.shtml

in this paper I outline the change from the old testament sabbath to the new testament sabbath....it was done by God himself...and the scriptures say it clearly...:-)

blueheron32

[Rylee]

In case you haven't read the first FIVE THOUSAND posts on the topic, not all Catholic doctrine in based on Scripture. Here it is in caps so everyone will notice: CATHOLICS BELIEVE IN THE TWIN SOURCES OF AUTHORITY OF SCRIPTURE AND TRADITION. NOT EVERYTHING WE DO OR BELIEVE IS BASED ON SCRIPTURE.

So, why do Catholics do it if it's not in scripture? What I'm trying to ask is, what are you accomplishing by engaging in ritualistic activity that has little or no Bible-based background?

[friend]

I grew up a Catholic, but am no longer, a loved one argued with me about Hail Mary, and I took immediate defense. I was saved at the time. (Still am) but what I am trying to say is this, Only God can enlighten people to false doctrine or anything else. The loved one's argument sent me to the bible which is where God revealed the truth. Even though her strong words hurt, I thank God she did.

[Word]

I have a quick question for any Catholics out there: What's up with the confessional? I mean, I know that in order to be forgiven, you have to confess your sins to a priest in confession. Why not just pray? Why do you have to go through a priest to talk to God? That's what I don't understand.

I guess I lied... I have one more question for Catholics, not just the one... ;) I've heard from some Catholics I know that it's good to pray to different saints for different things. Isn't that kind of like worshipping idols? I would never pray to anybody but God... so, if you need something, why not pray to God instead of praying to a statue that represents a saint?

This might help you understand their way more...:)

http://www.stisidore-yubacity.org/faqpenance.htm

[Rylee]

Thanks for sharing the website. I understand that it used to be a public affair... is that why it has to be done with a priest present today? I was under the understanding that the priest had to be involved as kind of a "messenger to God"... Anyhow, that doesn't make me understand why Catholics can't just confess their sins to God without a third party involved.

[blueheron32]

rylee...

It may also be that in the RCC understanding of the priest, that he is actually in some sense christ himself... He is in the room of christ, in the place of christ, so when they confess to him, they believe they are confessing directly to God himself. Thats why the priest weilds such power over people, and may abuse his position in terrible ways, with apparent immunity. To accuse the priest is to accuse Christ himself. Remember the priest supposedly has the keys to the kingdom...he can send you to heaven or hell...soooo.....just kiss his hand or his feet, and do what he says...dont think, dont read the bible, just submit to mother church...:-(

blue

[Rylee]

That's a *really* scary thought...

Exactly HOW is that not worshipping an idol?!?

[Fydo]

awww blue, your killin me here. From what Ive read in the past I have found you to be a very straight forward thinker and untill now I have seen you as a big brother on this board, but your last statement has hurt me not only as a person but as a Catholic as well. "just kiss his hand or his feet, and do what he says...dont think, dont read the bible, just submit to mother church... " that was a very degrading, and ignorant statement. And Im going to pray that your are able to be more loving and more interested in researching things before you post. That is not what any Catholic I know does or believes, nor does the Church teach anything that resemles that. Im not attacking you personaly and if I sound that way I want to appologize now. Im not hurt by you, Im hurt by your idea and how you choose to express that opinion.
Next I would like to talk to everybody on this Board, I have one request. I have ready many times where a question will be posed, and there will be answers given by people who have no idea what they are talking about. This thread was directed toward Catholics, and should have been answered by Catholics, not by people who think that they know what the Church teaches. This goes for Catholics too, if you dont know they answer for sure, then dont respond, or if you do make sure that you state that you really dont know but this is what you think the answer is. Or even better...look it up, the correct answer will be in your catechism, there are also many places on the internet that you will be able to find the answers for example...newadvent.org is a good one that I use all of the time. Then not only do you know the right answer for yourself, but you can help others to know the truth as well.
I would expect this to go for questions on any topic, if you dont know, look it up, if the question isnt directed at you, you could give your opinion, but dont try to give a correct answer unless your sure of it. if your answer sounds fishy to you, it probably is, and probably isnt right. Questions for protestants should be answered by protestants, non-denominational, by nondenominational...and so on. I know that there are many catholics that dont know their faith as well as they should, I dont claim to be an expert, but I do read things that the church teaches, and I always take that and compare it to what is in the bible and what other early christians have written. And I can tell you this with full confidence, after doing my own research I am yet to find something that the church teaches that contradicts the bible in ANY way, there are things that we do that arent specifically stated in the bible. and im sure your church does things too that arent in the bible specifically. Now your gonna disagree with this next statement but im going to say it anyway. There is no religion that follows scripture more closely and with more DEPTH than the Catholic church. And before you fly off the handle on me, know this, I have done some of this kind of research and biblical reading, and I have found nothing wrong. Also before you fly off the handle, try reading your bible with the depth that Catholics are challenged to do.
Now this thread is getting really long, and there are questions that have not been fully answered yet and I feel bad about that, it should have had only 2 or 3 posts. If you want to know things about the Catholic Church, start a new thread or send me an email and I will be glad to anwer it. If i dont know the answer I will be more than Happy to lovingly look it up for you.

There are not one hundred people in this world wo dislike Caholicism, but there are millions who dislike what they mistakenly believe Catholicism to be
-archbishop scheen, former archbishop of st. paul

[blueheron32]

Fydo...

Im sorry if you are offended, I knew when I posted that it could sound offensive and might be taken that way.. After reading your post I even considered removing it, but I think I will let it stand. The RCC teaches that the priests act, "in persona christi"... In the person of christ... perhaps I am mistaken as I look at that but that seems to me to be saying that the priest takes the place of christ himself before the church, or congregation. The Pope, the ultimate "priest"... is called the Vicar of Christ..... which means he operates in the place of christ, in the room of christ...He represents Christ on earth. He is also called the vice regent of christ...which means while Jesus is out of the country so to speak, the pope or priest "acts" in his place. In other words he assumes all the power and authority of the one he is replacing until the real king returns to take his throne. I am going to include a link if anyone is interestend in reading it....it will take you a day or two...:-) It is an official catholic document, so it is in their own words... as you read through it, you will notice regularly the phrase, in the person of Christ, or its latin version.. in persona christi, and other variations of the same phrase.

http://www.vocations.com/priest/priestplpc.html

If I stand before you, ministering, in the person of christ....who am I making myself out to be???

you may also want to google, in persona christi ...you will find much more...of interest..

blue

[Rufus]

This thread is a bit all over the place so I'll just add to the ranting if I may. Let me start out by saying I love the Catholic people, I feel for them as they have been just as deceived as I was only in different ways.

Catholicism is not Christianity. Christianity is a faith based religion and Christians are saved by the grace of God:
“For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God. Not of works, lest any man should boast.” – Ephesians 2:8-9

Catholicism is a works based religion as salvation is by sacraments:

Council of Trent 7th Session March 3, 1527

Canon VII – If any one saith, that grace, as far as God’s part is concerned, is not given through the said sacraments, always, and to all men, even though they receive them rightly, but (only) sometimes, and to some persons; let him be anathema.
Vatican II stated the RCC holds to the council of Trent


Since someone who believes in salvation through faith is anathema, this means they are cursed to hell as they are outside the church.

“…We declare, state and define that it is absolutely necessary for the salvation of all human beings that they submit to the Roman Pontiff.” – Pope Boniface VIII

Current and past popes have blasphemed the name and the Word of God. Some examples:

The Lord Saith:
“I am the LORD: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another…” – Isaiah 42:8a

The Pope Saith:
“We hold upon this earth the place of God Almighty.” – Pope Leo XIII

The Lord Saith:
“Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.” – John 17:11

The Pope Saith:
The world calls the Pope and the Pope accepts the title of Holy Father, this is blasphemous!

The RCC believes they can forgive all sins...
"There is no offense, however serious, that the Church cannot forgive." - Catechism Pg. 256, #982
"Why doth this man thus speak blasphemies? who can forgive sins but God only?" – Mark 2:7

Mediatrix Mary
Taken up to heaven she (Mary) did not lay aside this saving office but by her manifold intercession continues to bring us the gifts of eternal salvation..." – Catechism Pg. 252, #969
"Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me." John 14:6

Purgatory
"All who die in God's grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven. " - Catechism Pg. 2658, #1030
There is no scripture in the Holy Bible that refers to purgatory!

For those Catholics (and those protestants or baptists that are in churches who are rejoining with the RCC) that have discovered the Truth of Christ there is instruction for them in scripture...
"And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues." - Rev 18:4

[Rufus]

“It is the bounden duty of every Christian to pray against Antichrist, and as to what Antichrist is no sane man ought to raise a question. If it be not the Popery in the Church of Rome there is nothing in the world that can be called by that name. It wounds Christ, robs Christ of His glory, puts sacramental efficacy in the place of His atonement, and lifts a piece of bread in the place of the Saviour…if we pray against it, because it is against Him, we shall love the persons though we hate their errors; we shall love their souls, though we loathe and detest their dogmas…” - CH Spurgeon

If you are not convinced the RCC is antichrist then take a look at these pictures (http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.ovrlnd.com/Images/popesata.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.ovrlnd.com/Cults/invertedcross.html&h=240&w=320&sz=12&tbnid=SuYpNg7sKDpGBM:&tbnh=84&tbnw=113&hl=en&start=2&prev=/images%3Fq%3DPope%2BInverted%2BCross%26svnum%3D10% 26hl%3Den%26lr%3D%26sa%3DG).

[germanJoy]

"just kiss his hand or his feet, and do what he says...dont think, dont read the bible, just submit to mother church... " that was a very degrading, and ignorant statement.
Fydo, that statement is neither degrading nor ignorant but "true". As a "former catholic" (of which 95% of my relatives, friends, neighbours, classmates are catholics), we were discouraged by the priests to read our bibles. We had to religiously observe every year the San Jose Festival during Easter Time where there are three persons (a male child, a young lady, and an old man) representing "Jesus, Mary, and Joseph" sitting around a table and all guests/catholics are to kneel down before them in honor and worship, kiss their hands one by one and then put money into the bowl placed at the center of the table. Before you deny this practice, be informed that the bishops, the cardinals and the priests are also present and invited during this festival.

And Im going to pray that your are able to be more loving and more interested in researching things before you post. That is not what any Catholic I know does or believes, nor does the Church teach anything that resemles that.
I think you being an archbishop (sheen) has absolutely NO IDEA what an ordinary catholic person thinks what a catholic priest is or worst what a pope to them is. The words of a priest to us (as a former catholic) were seen as the absolute truth, holy, infallible, and free of error. In other words, they were to us equivalent to God's Word. Anyone who refutes a priest refutes God Himself. And if you do not see it like that then you are "ignorant" (sorry to use this word but there is no other word I can find that best describes it) of your own position as an archbishop.
To give you a very practical example: all my contemporary housewives who are catholics are "proudly" stealing money from their husbands. Their act is instructed, justified and blessed by the priests who taught them that "this act" is not sinful because "You own what your husband owns anyway. So if he gets mad if you take his money, do it secretly...(in other words "steal it"). " I used to follow this instruction when I was a catholic until I fully grasped what really is behind all these.

Next I would like to talk to everybody on this Board, I have one request. I have ready many times where a question will be posed, and there will be answers given by people who have no idea what they are talking about. This thread was directed toward Catholics, and should have been answered by Catholics, not by people who think that they know what the Church teaches.
The best people to give the correct answer regarding the truth of the "catholic teachings" versus "biblical teachings" are the "redeemed catholics" saved by the grace of God through faith in Christ Jesus, no more no less. :-)

This goes for Catholics too, if you dont know they answer for sure, then dont respond, or if you do make sure that you state that you really dont know but this is what you think the answer is. Or even better...look it up, the correct answer will be in your catechism, there are also many places on the internet that you will be able to find the answers for example...newadvent.org is a good one that I use all of the time. Then not only do you know the right answer for yourself, but you can help others to know the truth as well.
A true disciple of Christ or friend of Jesus would acknowledge that the only source of truth is the Holy Bible, neither the catechism nor the internet.

I know that there are many catholics that dont know their faith as well as they should, I dont claim to be an expert, but I do read things that the church teaches, and I always take that and compare it to what is in the bible and what other early christians have written
The only way for a Catholic to realize and see the wrong teachings of catholicism is by intensively reading and studying the Holy Bible and by developing a passion for Christ and a hunger for His Word.

And I can tell you this with full confidence, after doing my own research I am yet to find something that the church teaches that contradicts the bible in ANY way, there are things that we do that arent specifically stated in the bible. and im sure your church does things too that arent in the bible specifically.
The Catholic Church is one of the "few trinitarian churches" I know which does things that are not in the bible. Most trinitarian churches do only things that are written in the bible.

Now your gonna disagree with this next statement but im going to say it anyway. There is no religion that follows scripture more closely and with more DEPTH than the Catholic church. And before you fly off the handle on me, know this, I have done some of this kind of research and biblical reading, and I have found nothing wrong.
You still need to prove this statement to be able to establish this fact. As far as this thread is concerned, many catholic teachings are proven to be lies that speak against the truth which the bible teaches.

There are not one hundred people in this world wo dislike Caholicism, but there are millions who dislike what they mistakenly believe Catholicism to be
In this discussion, there are two Masters; one is the Master of truth and the other is the Master of lies. There are two teachings; one is biblical and the other is catholicism.

There are two peoples; one loves the truth and the other loves lies, one loves the light and the other loves darkness.

I hope and pray that "all catholics" will make a decision to love and serve the Master of truth.

germanJoy
redeemed catholic servant of Christ

[brenn]

hollie199.... I have to agree with onejoe. the catholic church is a "cult" read the scriptures some more. I also agree with you that we shouldn't judge them or anyone else who is worshing in a false doctine BUT we are to show them the true word of God and show them and explain the error of a false doctine. If we don't then we are guilty of sending them to hell because we held the Word of God from them. there is only one gospel and that's it. no other way but by Jesus.
This scripture pretty much says it all
EZEKIEL 3:18 When I say unto the wicked thou shalt surely die; and thou givest him not warning, nor speakest to warn the wicked from his wicked way, to save his life; the same wicked man shall die in his iniquity; but his blood will I require at thine hand.

[Rylee]

I figured that I might as well tack my question on to this thread, because I really don't want to start another long thread that could potentially turn in to an argument. I'm just looking for an answer to my question; nothing more, nothing less.
My boyfriend was raised Catholic. At the present moment, I suppose if pressed for a label, he would say non-denominational. Anyhow, we have been talking a lot lately because I am worried about his family. He tells me that his church did not teach that you had to ask Jesus to come in to your heart, or if you prefer the term 'be saved', to be a Christian. This troubles me greatly... and I'm hoping that he has just misunderstood. Please tell me that he is wrong... Catholics are taught that they must be saved, correct?

[Fydo]

Yes, Catholics must "be saved" if you want to call it that, thats the first part of being a Christian. If your going to call yourself a Christian of any kind you have to accept Jesus into your heart. We dont do a single prayer that after you do it your born agian or saved like others would call it. But if there was a single time when a Catholic would do a formal thing like that it would be when a Catholic is confirmed. At that point you would say that you reject satan, accept jesus, and the Church teachings. Catholics are called to ask Jesus into their heart on a daily basis. We believe that we were saved the moment that Jesus died on the cross, and I dont think that we are the only ones. We must accept Jesus into our hearts, all of us Christians. So in short, yeah he probably misunderstood.

[Rylee]

Thank you very much Fydo, that makes me feel better about his family and all other Catholics that are close to me... :-)

[Irish_Man]

I am a Catholic, and it sounds to me like you have misunderstood Catholic doctrine a little bit. It's not your fault I'm sure, many Catholics don't understand doctrine themselves.

We are required to confess our sins to priests and Jesus, not just the priest. The priest is there as a holy person to give the confessor spiritual advice and forgiveness. Just in case you question this sacrament on a biblical level, please read Jn. 20:22-23, 2 Cor. 6:16-21, James 5:13-15, Mt. 18:18, 1 Jn 5:16

Your next question is also a little misguided in my opinion. It is true that we ask saints to help us and to pray for us, but it is not idol worship. We do not pray to statues, I have no idea where you got that idea, we do make statues yes, but we do not worship them. Biblical refrences for saint intercession can be found in Ps. 103:20-21, Ps. 148: 1-2, Rev. 8: 3-4, Rev. 5:8, (Luther's original translation didn't have Revelation!!!!!) Heb. 12:22-23, 1 Tim.: 1-4, Rom. 15:30–32, Eph. 6:18–20, Col. 4:3, 1 Thess. 5:25, 2 Thess. 3:1, 2 Thess. 1:11, Matt. 5:44, Matt. 17:3, Rom 15:30, Rom. 12:10, Heb. 12:1, Lk. 16: 19-30, Jos. 14-15, Tob. 12:16 also for making not worshipping statues Ex. 25:18-19, Num. 21:8-9, 1 Kgs 6.

Thank you for your concern and Go mBeannai Dia thu! (May God bless you!)

[Word]

I am a Catholic, and it sounds to me like you have misunderstood Catholic doctrine a little bit. It's not your fault I'm sure, many Catholics don't understand doctrine themselves.

We are required to confess our sins to priests and Jesus, not just the priest. The priest is there as a holy person to give the confessor spiritual advice and forgiveness. Just in case you question this sacrament on a biblical level, please read Jn. 20:22-23, 2 Cor. 6:16-21, James 5:13-15, Mt. 18:18, 1 Jn 5:16

Your next question is also a little misguided in my opinion. It is true that we ask saints to help us and to pray for us, but it is not idol worship. We do not pray to statues, I have no idea where you got that idea, we do make statues yes, but we do not worship them. Biblical refrences for saint intercession can be found in Ps. 103:20-21, Ps. 148: 1-2, Rev. 8: 3-4, Rev. 5:8, (Luther's original translation didn't have Revelation!!!!!) Heb. 12:22-23, 1 Tim.: 1-4, Rom. 15:30–32, Eph. 6:18–20, Col. 4:3, 1 Thess. 5:25, 2 Thess. 3:1, 2 Thess. 1:11, Matt. 5:44, Matt. 17:3, Rom 15:30, Rom. 12:10, Heb. 12:1, Lk. 16: 19-30, Jos. 14-15, Tob. 12:16 also for making not worshipping statues Ex. 25:18-19, Num. 21:8-9, 1 Kgs 6.

Thank you for your concern and Go mBeannai Dia thu! (May God bless you!)

I'm glad to see a Catholic speak up about this and I will check out the scriptures you have listed.

May Elohim's Blessing be upon you in the name of Moshiach Yehoshua.:)

[Fydo]

Thank you Irish Man. agian and agian. You came up with way more scripture than I could have, atta boy.

[DanPHX]

I have a quick question for any Catholics out there: What's up with the confessional? I mean, I know that in order to be forgiven, you have to confess your sins to a priest in confession. Why not just pray? Why do you have to go through a priest to talk to God? That's what I don't understand.
ANSWER:
There are OVER A BILLION Catholics in the world today
Non-Catholics have great difficulty in understanding the Catholic attitude on Confession. It presents the greatest stumbling-block to the enquiring mind. To them it is humiliating, something not to be endured. Yet, when their attention is called to the Catholic reasons for belief, namely, that we hold that

Jesus Christ has the power to forgive sin, that He proved His power to do so, that He gave the exercise of this power to His Apostles, and, therefore, to the priests of today, who are the direct successors of the Apostles, when He addressed to the Twelve the words quoted from St. John xx, 23—the doctrine becomes reasonable enough.

It follows that the power given to the Apostles was not to expire with them, since the Church of Christ was to continue until the end of time. The Apostles had the right to select their successors and to delegate their powers to them, in order that the whole world should have the opportunity of enjoying the forgiveness of sin, among other privileges of Christ's passion. Therefore, if this power continues in the Church, how else might it be exercised unless in the actual confession? How could the Apostles exercise this power of forgiveness unless they first knew what to "forgive" or "retain"? Confession of sin to a duly authorized priest for the purpose of obtaining forgiveness follows. Christ gave His Apostles the rights of a judge. No judge can decide a case unless first the evidence is presented to him. This requires confession, safeguarded and surrounded with every precaution, as it is, in the interests of the penitent. Not only is it protected by what is called the "seal of confession,'' but every effort is made to help the penitent to conceal his identity, since that fact need not be known

I guess I lied... I have one more question for Catholics, not just the one... ;) I've heard from some Catholics I know that it's good to pray to different saints for different things. Isn't that kind of like worshipping idols? I would never pray to anybody but God... so, if you need something, why not pray to God instead of praying to a statue that represents a saint?

ANSWER:
There is communion between members of the Church upon earth because we partake of the same sacraments, are governed under one lawful head, and assist each other by prayer and other good works. When St. Paul encourages the Corinthians to help their needy brethren at Jerusalem (II Cor. viii, 14) he is so understood by commentators. We assist each other by our prayers and good works. The branch on earth is called the Church Militant.

This same assistance is rendered the suffering souls in Purgatory. The Holy Spirit works in all the members. (I Cor. xii, 13.) The Church suffering in Purgatory is the second member of this Communion of Saints. We, who are upon earth can help the souls in Purgatory by our prayers and other good works. The Jews believed this was possible (II Mach. xii) since Judas Maccabeus caused sacrifices to be offered for those who fell in battle. In the Memento made after the Consecration a special petition is offered by the priest for the departed.

hope this helps- Peace and Blessings- Dan

[DanPHX]

Hello ONEJOE
The saints in Heaven can help us by their prayers before the throne of God (Apoc. viii, 4), especially if we call upon them for help. They form the third branch of the Communion Saints, namely, the Church Triumphant in Heaven. The Church teaches that when we call upon the Saints for help, they unite their prayers with ours. Their intercession for us has greater efficacy. St. John Chrysostom compares their intercession to the pleading of old soldiers who display their wounds. Their power has often been demonstrated in miracles.

Our dead relatives and friends, who are in Heaven are always praying for us before the throne of God and often save us from danger. The prophet Jeremias prayed in Limbo for the Jewish nation. (II Mach. xv, 14.) St. Augustine was much advanced in sanctity after the death of his mother, St. Monica. So do the Saints assist the souls in Purgatory. Our Blessed Lady alone rescues daily some souls by her prayers. St. Peter Damien was a great believer in the efficacy of her intercession especially on her feast-days and on Saturday, a day dedicated to her. Our angel guardian and the angels, whom especially we have honored upon earth, all assist us. One of the prayers in common use speaks of St. Michael as our defender and protector "in the day of battle" with the world of temptation and sin.

[Saltwinds]

Thanks for the readings. I will have to look these up. I'm questioning my denomination right now. I don't believe a lot of the politics of the Catholic church (especially what has been going on in my area) but I was saved in a Catholic Church from a demon that nearly destroyed me. I have yet to be at a Catholic mass where the people worship anything other than Jesus Christ, so I'm not really buying the whole "worshipping statues" thing. Thanks for an interesting discussion. God bless you all.

I am a Catholic, and it sounds to me like you have misunderstood Catholic doctrine a little bit. It's not your fault I'm sure, many Catholics don't understand doctrine themselves.

We are required to confess our sins to priests and Jesus, not just the priest. The priest is there as a holy person to give the confessor spiritual advice and forgiveness. Just in case you question this sacrament on a biblical level, please read Jn. 20:22-23, 2 Cor. 6:16-21, James 5:13-15, Mt. 18:18, 1 Jn 5:16

Your next question is also a little misguided in my opinion. It is true that we ask saints to help us and to pray for us, but it is not idol worship. We do not pray to statues, I have no idea where you got that idea, we do make statues yes, but we do not worship them. Biblical refrences for saint intercession can be found in Ps. 103:20-21, Ps. 148: 1-2, Rev. 8: 3-4, Rev. 5:8, (Luther's original translation didn't have Revelation!!!!!) Heb. 12:22-23, 1 Tim.: 1-4, Rom. 15:30–32, Eph. 6:18–20, Col. 4:3, 1 Thess. 5:25, 2 Thess. 3:1, 2 Thess. 1:11, Matt. 5:44, Matt. 17:3, Rom 15:30, Rom. 12:10, Heb. 12:1, Lk. 16: 19-30, Jos. 14-15, Tob. 12:16 also for making not worshipping statues Ex. 25:18-19, Num. 21:8-9, 1 Kgs 6.

Thank you for your concern and Go mBeannai Dia thu! (May God bless you!)

[germanJoy]

I am a Catholic, and it sounds to me like you have misunderstood Catholic doctrine a little bit. It's not your fault I'm sure, many Catholics don't understand doctrine themselves.

We are required to confess our sins to priests and Jesus, not just the priest. The priest is there as a holy person to give the confessor spiritual advice and forgiveness. Just in case you question this sacrament on a biblical level, please read Jn. 20:22-23, 2 Cor. 6:16-21, James 5:13-15, Mt. 18:18, 1 Jn 5:16

Your next question is also a little misguided in my opinion. It is true that we ask saints to help us and to pray for us, but it is not idol worship. We do not pray to statues, I have no idea where you got that idea, we do make statues yes, but we do not worship them. Biblical refrences for saint intercession can be found in Ps. 103:20-21, Ps. 148: 1-2, Rev. 8: 3-4, Rev. 5:8, (Luther's original translation didn't have Revelation!!!!!) Heb. 12:22-23, 1 Tim.: 1-4, Rom. 15:30–32, Eph. 6:18–20, Col. 4:3, 1 Thess. 5:25, 2 Thess. 3:1, 2 Thess. 1:11, Matt. 5:44, Matt. 17:3, Rom 15:30, Rom. 12:10, Heb. 12:1, Lk. 16: 19-30, Jos. 14-15, Tob. 12:16 also for making not worshipping statues Ex. 25:18-19, Num. 21:8-9, 1 Kgs 6.

Thank you for your concern and Go mBeannai Dia thu! (May God bless you!)
Hey,Irishman, :-O the Scriptures you gave had neither to do with sacraments nor saint intercession. If you quote Scriptures, make sure you don't take them out of context and make a deceiving doctrine to support the father of lies.

John 20:22-23 writes about Jesus breathing unto His disciples the Holy Spirit and giving them authority to forgive and retain sins. Who are the disciples of Christ? They are all those who deny himself, take up his cross and follow Jesus Mark 9:24. They are any followers of Jesus Christ and not the Catholic priests. John 20:22 And when he had said this, he (Jesus) breathed on them (disciples), and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:

23 Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained.

2 Cor. 6:16-18 speaks about the people of God, the sons and daughters of the Almighty, the believers of Jesus Christ, all children of God and not about the Catholic priests.
2 Cor. 6:15 And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel?

6:16 And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.

6:17 Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you.

6:18 And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty.

James 5:13-15 is an instruction of James to the elders of the church (the elders are the pastors or apostles, not the Catholic priests) to pray over and annoint the sick with oil.

Again, Matthew 18:18 is addressed by Jesus to all who believe in His name, to His church (the whole believers) giving her authority to bind and loose on earth, and not the Catholic priests. Jesus is even saying here that anyone (2 or 3) gathered in His name can do this.

Truly I say to you, whatever you shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven. Again I say to you, that if two of you agree on earth about anything that they may ask, it shall be done for them by My Father who is in heaven. For where two or three have gathered together in My name, there I am in their midst. Matt. 8:18-20

I still have to cook and I'll take up the other Scriptures on my next post.

germanJoy

[datitledeed]

I have a quick question for any Catholics out there: What's up with the confessional? I mean, I know that in order to be forgiven, you have to confess your sins to a priest in confession. Why not just pray? Why do you have to go through a priest to talk to God? That's what I don't understand.

I guess I lied... I have one more question for Catholics, not just the one... ;) I've heard from some Catholics I know that it's good to pray to different saints for different things. Isn't that kind of like worshipping idols? I would never pray to anybody but God... so, if you need something, why not pray to God instead of praying to a statue that represents a saint?
Yes! I was hoping that someone would have a honest question about Catholicism. Catholicism seems to be gravely misunderstood, especially lately. I attend a Catholic church occasionally, although I feel that just being Christian is good enough for me, denominationalism turns a lot of people off to Christianity. In the Bible it does say to confess your sins one to another. James 5:16 is just one of the places mentioned. The Lord places great emphasis on community and relying and having faith in each other. As to why it has to be the priest, why not? Catholics don't believe that it is the priest thats forgiving them, or shouldn't anyways and they don't believe that it is the only way.

[datitledeed]

As for the praying to saints, of course it isn't Idol worship. The word Idol refers to a material object, no? Catholics pray to the spirits of saints, as Moses and Elijah talked to Jesus, so can similar intervention occur between Christians and departed brothers and sisters. There is a spiritual world. It also mentions in the Old testament many times that the Lord or his angels walked with different people and talked to them. Any thoughts on this significance?

[Rufus]

Yes! I was hoping that someone would have a honest question about Catholicism.

Did someone post a dishonest question?

I attend a Catholic church occasionally, although I feel that just being Christian is good enough for me, denominationalism turns a lot of people off to Christianity.

This is not about denominationalism this is about two entirely different religions.

As to why it has to be the priest, why not?

There is nothing wrong with confessing sins to a brother in Christ. There is something wrong however, when the individual hearing the confession takes the place of Jesus Christ by absolving the confessors sin and doing something that only God has the authority to do.

Catholics don't believe that it is the priest thats forgiving them, or shouldn't anyways and they don't believe that it is the only way.

What is absolution of sin if it is not forgiveness and how far do you have to stretch scripture to believe that some man was granted this authority. I can not absolve you of your sins and neither can a man in the box.

"Why doth this man thus speak blasphemies? who can forgive sins but God only?" - Mark 2:7

[Rufus]

As for the praying to saints, of course it isn't Idol worship. The word Idol refers to a material object, no?

No. An idol does not have to be a material object. There's a television program in the United States called American Idol. There is no material idol in this program that they are raising up but it is idolatry none the less.

From the 1828 Webster's Dictionary:

IDOL

I'DOL, n. L. idolum; Gr. form or to see.

1. An image, form or representation, usually of a man or other animal, consecrated as an object of worship; a pagan deity. Idols are usually statues or images, carved out of wood or stone, or formed of metals, particularly silver or gold.

The gods of the nations are idols. Ps.96.

2. An image.

Nor ever idol seemed so much alive.

3. A person loved and honored to adoration. The prince was the idol of the people.

4. Any thing on which we set our affections; that to which we indulge an excessive and sinful attachment.

Little children, keep yourselves from idols. 1 John.5.

An idol is any thing which usurps the place of God in the hearts of his rational creatures.

[churchwebber]

When a Catholic "Prays to Saints" he or she is actually asking for an intersession from that saint. They are asking that saint to pray for them, to help them with their prayers. Here is an earthly example. Say you are going into surgery, and before you go in, you ask someone to say a prayer for you. "Mom, I dont know how this surgery is going to turn out, please say a prayer for me!" Would anyone accuse you of idolatry, or that you were praying to your mother? Of course not. We are actually asking them to say a prayer for us. We are not praying to them. Hope this helps clear things up-

As for the praying to saints, of course it isn't Idol worship. The word Idol refers to a material object, no? Catholics pray to the spirits of saints, as Moses and Elijah talked to Jesus, so can similar intervention occur between Christians and departed brothers and sisters. There is a spiritual world. It also mentions in the Old testament many times that the Lord or his angels walked with different people and talked to them. Any thoughts on this significance?

[Rufus]

When a Catholic "Prays to Saints" he or she is actually asking for an intersession from that saint. They are asking that saint to pray for them, to help them with their prayers. Here is an earthly example. Say you are going into surgery, and before you go in, you ask someone to say a prayer for you. "Mom, I dont know how this surgery is going to turn out, please say a prayer for me!" Would anyone accuse you of idolatry, or that you were praying to your mother? Of course not. We are actually asking them to say a prayer for us. We are not praying to them. Hope this helps clear things up-

In the earthly example you cited, is your Mom dead?

Why would a follower of Jesus Christ allow a saint to get in between them and God when they have a direct link to him? Sounds like the early age of operator run telephones where you need an intercessor to plug you in.

Perhaps Catholics aren't professing to prophesy but it seems to be close to necromancy.

From the 1828 Webster's Dictionary:

NECROMANCY

NECROMANCY, n. Gr. Dead, and divination.

1. The art of revealing future events by means of a pretended communication with the dead. This imposture is prohibited. Deuteronomy 18.

2. Enchantment; conjuration.

"There shall not be found among you any one that maketh his son or his daughter to pass through the fire, or that useth divination, or an observer of times, or an enchanter, or a witch. Or a charmer, or a consulter with familiar spirits, or a wizard, or a necromancer." - Deuteronomy 18:10-11

[Rylee]

We are actually asking them to say a prayer for us. We are not praying to them. Hope this helps clear things up-

It doesn't really clear anything up... I see a big difference between asking a fellow believer to pray for me and asking a dead saint to pray for me. The thing is, the fellow believer (if you'd like to use my mom, we can do that) would be praying in the same fashion I would, as a child of God who has a prayer request that we are bringing to Him. The thing is, I can talk to my mom verbally, in conversation form, because she's right here. A saint is not right here, and I don't know how to talk to the dead. I only talk to the living, like our Living God. :-) So, how is asking a dead saint to pray for you anymore beneficial than just praying to God yourself?

[Rylee]

Ummm.... now I'm totally lost. Can you quote me some scriptures so I could better understand? I might be a 'lost cause' (teehee:-)) because I don't believe in purgatory, so maybe you'd better not even try, because I probably won't get what you're trying to say anyway. Not so much "not get it", but "not BELIEVE it". Thanks for the effort though...

[Rylee]

...but what I'm saying is that once a person dies, you can't communicate with them until you see them again in heaven (assuming they're going to heaven)... so how in the world can you possibly talk to the dead? In my humble opinion, talking to the dead is like Ouiji board stuff... scary stuff.

[OneJoe]

Hello ONEJOE
The saints in Heaven can help us by their prayers before the throne of God (Apoc. viii, 4), especially if we call upon them for help. They form the third branch of the Communion Saints, namely, the Church Triumphant in Heaven. The Church teaches that when we call upon the Saints for help, they unite their prayers with ours. Their intercession for us has greater efficacy. St. John Chrysostom compares their intercession to the pleading of old soldiers who display their wounds. Their power has often been demonstrated in miracles.

Our dead relatives and friends, who are in Heaven are always praying for us before the throne of God and often save us from danger. The prophet Jeremias prayed in Limbo for the Jewish nation. (II Mach. xv, 14.) St. Augustine was much advanced in sanctity after the death of his mother, St. Monica. So do the Saints assist the souls in Purgatory. Our Blessed Lady alone rescues daily some souls by her prayers. St. Peter Damien was a great believer in the efficacy of her intercession especially on her feast-days and on Saturday, a day dedicated to her. Our angel guardian and the angels, whom especially we have honored upon earth, all assist us. One of the prayers in common use speaks of St. Michael as our defender and protector "in the day of battle" with the world of temptation and sin.
Hi Dan, how are the saints in heaven going to help us in the eyes of God when the bible says that Christ is the only mediator between God and men?(1Tim 2:5) If Christ is the only mediator then it is only the son of God who can confess us before the father. I trust the truth of the bible that only Christ can intercede for us. Therefore, if you would rather place your trust in deceased people, saints or not, so be it. I will stick with the son of God as the only mediator.

[germanJoy]

As for the praying to saints, of course it isn't Idol worship. The word Idol refers to a material object, no? Catholics pray to the spirits of saints, as Moses and Elijah talked to Jesus, so can similar intervention occur between Christians and departed brothers and sisters. There is a spiritual world. It also mentions in the Old testament many times that the Lord or his angels walked with different people and talked to them. Any thoughts on this significance?
First of all, Jesus did not pray to Moses and Elijah. Jesus always prayed to no one else except to the Heavenly Father. There is neither old testament man of God nor any new testament disciple/believer of Jesus Christ who ever prayed to a dead brother or sister or any saint. No one even prayed to David or Abraham, all believers in the bible prayed solely to God, the Creator of heaven and earth. And anyone who made an idol, of wood or stone of any human or animal, and prays or bows down to this idol were considered as IDOLATERS and ABOMINABLE. They are condemned to eternal fire, the second death. Sadly, only the Roman Catholic believers and some Orthodox churches, among the so-called christians, deceived by the doctrines of unbiblical Catechism and doctrines of men pray to the dead saints and make idols or images of them.

But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death. Rev. 21:8

One of the ten commandments strictly forbids idol making and worshipping.
You shall make no other gods before Me. You shall not make for yourself an idol, or any likeness of what is in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the water under the earth. You shall not worship them or serve them; for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children, on the third and the fourth generation of those who hate Me. Exodus 20:3-4

The making of an idol had been an old practice of the unbelieving minds, those who hate God. God had closed their eyes and their ears and they are hopeless. They deeds are futile and they will be put to shame. This is how idols are made:
Those who fashion a graven image are all of them futile, and their precious things are of no profit; even their own witnesses fail to see or know, so that they will be put to shame.

Who has fashioned a god or cast an idol to no profit?

Behold, all his companions will be put to shame,, for the craftsmen themselves are mere men. Let them all assemble themselves, let them stand up, let them tremble, let them together be put to shame.

The man shapes iron into a cutting tool, and does his work over his coals, fashioning it with hammers, and working it with his strong arm. He also gets hungry and his strength fails; he drinks no water and becomes weary.

Another shapes wood, he extends a measuring line; he outlines it with red chalk. He works it with planes, and outlines it with a compass