Once saved always saved?

[jc_fide]

I know its a tough topic but i had to ask it.

My youth group talked about this but never came to a conclusion so i would like to know what you guys think :-D

[firstplaceinmylife]

I believe that once we are saved, we are always saved, in the sense that though we may stray away from our faith, God is always with us, always watching over us.

[charlesj]

I know its a tough topic but i had to ask it.

My youth group talked about this but never came to a conclusion so i would like to know what you guys think :-D

This is strictly a Calvinistic doctrine, it doesn't come from the Bible. You will
find arguments on both sides of the fence off this one. Calvin has influenced the denominational religious world and most have "grown up" with this doctine.

It's kinda like Jacob, his son's told him that Joseph was killed by an animal and then they showed some of Joseph's garments stained with blood and Jacob believed a lie. Years later, Joseph ruled Egypt and his brothers found out (most know the story) and then the brothers went back to the father
and told him the "truth." The scripture says:
Genesis 45:26 26 And told him, saying, Joseph is yet alive, and he is governor over all the land of Egypt. And Jacob's heart fainted, for he believed them not.

Today, you can present the truth and many will not believe because they've belived a lie so long.

your servant in Messiah, Jesus (Yeshua)
charlesj

[Javert03]

Today, you can present the truth and many will not believe because they've belived a lie so long.


So what is the truth? You've claimed that this is an unbiblical doctrine, but I didn't catch any reason why.

The doctrine of "once saved, always saved" comes in many different flavors. And it's not "strictly Calvinistic". Calvin didn't believe in "once saved, always saved". Instead he believed in what is now referred to as "perseverance of the saints."

"Perseverance of the Saints" is the doctrine that those who are truly saved will not forever turn away from the Lord. Not that they simply cannot lose their salvation, but that they will not forever turn away.

In warning His disciples about false prophets, Jesus makes it clear that "You will know them by their fruits." In other words, the fruit of an unbeliever's life will be bad fruit, while the fruit of a believer's life will be good fruit.

Matthew 7:15-20
15 “Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves. 16 You will know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes from thornbushes or figs from thistles? 17 Even so, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit. 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Therefore by their fruits you will know them."

Ephesians 1:3-6 says:
3 "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, 4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, 5 having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, 6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He made us accepted in the Beloved."

If God "chose us in Him before the foundation of the world," and "predestined us to adoption as sons", how can we simply throw away our salvation? Can we thwart God's plans? Is man more powerful than God?

Clearly though, those who are saved can turn away for a time. In Galatians 1 Paul writes:

6 "I marvel that you are turning away so soon from Him who called you in the grace of Christ, to a different gospel, 7 which is not another; but there are some who trouble you and want to pervert the gospel of Christ."

But notice what Paul says in chapter 4. After the Galatians have "so soon" turned back to their original works based view of salvation, he worries that he has "labored for them in vain." In other words, he wonders if they were ever saved in the first place!

8 "But then, indeed, when you did not know God, you served those which by nature are not gods. 9 But now after you have known God, or rather are known by God, how is it that you turn again to the weak and beggarly elements, to which you desire again to be in bondage? 10 You observe days and months and seasons and years. 11 I am afraid for you, lest I have labored for you in vain."

Galtatians 5:24 says: And those who are Christ’s have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.

If you are saved and have commited your life to Christ, your old man has been crucified, and God will give you the grace to persevere to the end. God bless you!

[CheeseKing]

Calvinism is based off biblical theology. Calvin brought the information of the council of orange. You said that it is unbiblical? A lie? In my studies of the bible, I came across countless verses that support God's will in choosing, over our free will. If you look back to the thread called 'freewill???', you will see many verses that support God's will. The calvinistic doctrine does come from the bible. The entire chapter of romans 9, speaks of supportive scripture for the doctrine. If God hated esau, how could esau have a chance to accept God as his savior and go to heaven? Does God allow those he hates to go to heaven?

Romans 9:11 "(for the children not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works but of him who calls)"

The whole chapter speaks on these things, but I am pulling out key verses.

Romans 9:19-23 "You will say to me then, 'Why does he still find fault? For who has resisted his will?' But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed say to him who formed it, 'Why have you made me like this?' Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor? What if God, wanting to show his wrath and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, and that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had prepared beforehand for glory."

Proverbs 16:4 "The Lord has made all for himself, yes, even the wicked for the day of doom."

Hmm. Interesting...we are clay and God is the potter. He makes vessels of honor and dishonor. We can not resist his will. According to the verses, it is not about any acts that we have done, that he saves, before we are born. He made the vessels of glory beforehand. Beforehand? Vessels of wrath of wrath, prepared for destruction? Am I reading my bible right? The Lord has made all for himself. He is the creator. The potter.

John 15:16-19 "You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit and that your fruit should remain, that whatever you ask the father in my name he may give you. These things I command you, that you love one another. If the world hates you, you know that it hated me before it hated you. If you were of the world, the world would love its own. Yet because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, therefore the world hates you."

Wow. What is Jesus telling us? He chose us? He appointed us? If we are with Jesus, the world will hate us. Those who are with christ are not of the world and he tells us he chose us out of this world. Chosen out of the world to serve him. Not as vessels of destruction, but of glory... I will finish off saying, I agree. Once saved, always saved. If we are trully with the Lord, we are trully saved. Those who are not of the Lord, are not saved. You can say the words, but do you mean it? God chooses us and we get a hunger for the Lord.

"Perseverance of the Saints" is the doctrine that those who are truly saved will not forever turn away from the Lord. Not that they simply cannot lose their salvation, but that they will not forever turn away.

We, at times, will stumble. We may get off track, but if we are trully saved, we won't leave the Lord. Salvation is a gift of God. (ephesians 2:8-9). Take care.:-)

[charlesj]

So what is the truth? You've claimed that this is an unbiblical doctrine, but I didn't catch any reason why.

The doctrine of "once saved, always saved" comes in many different flavors. And it's not "strictly Calvinistic". Calvin didn't believe in "once saved, always saved". Instead he believed in what is now referred to as "perseverance of the saints."

"Perseverance of the Saints" is the doctrine that those who are truly saved will not forever turn away from the Lord. Not that they simply cannot lose their salvation, but that they will not forever turn away. ..."




"Will not forever turn away"??? Well, what do you call that? Isn't that "once you were saved and not matter what, in the end you will be saved"?? LOL

Ok, I was in a hurry this morning when I typed what I did (didn't use scripture.) I am restoring a house and wanted to spend a half day worth of work...so I did. Now, I have a little more time....

Perseverance of Saints is the last part of Calvin's great T.U.L.I.P....with the "P" standing for Perseverance of Saints. Calvin taught that man is totally hereditarily depraved. Since Calvinists believe man can do nothing, but evil on his own, they require God's unconditional election to save him. God must then call that individual in an irresistible way to salvation. Consequently, that man needs to do nothing to remain saved. To Calvinists, one's salvation that is depending on himself in any way whatsoever, overthrows the miraculous work of God in saving him.

John 15:5-6 5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing. {without me: or, severed from me} 6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.


These verses speak of an individual who first abides in Jesus and then chooses not to abide in Him. Is it possible for a Christian not to abide in Christ? If not, then Jesus’ warning has no meaning. If it is possible for a Christian not to abide in Christ, and he does not, and will not repent, his end is destruction!!


Paul warned the Galatians about the danger of going back to the Law of Moses for justification after they became Christians:

Galatians 5:2-4 Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing. For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law. Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

This passage is directed toward those who were true Christians, for Paul told them in Galatians 3:26
Galatians 3:26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

Paul, who spoke by inspiration, tells us these people are children of God. A Calvinist must admit they were elect, otherwise they couldn’t have faith. Yet Paul said it’s possible for such Christians to conduct themselves in a way where Christ can become of not profit to them, and they can be severed from Christ from (Greek “ek” meaning “out of”) grace. They cannot be severed from something they were not joined to, and they cannot “fall out” of something there were not in. No plainer statement could be made that children of God by faith can be severed from Christ and fall from grace, so Christ is become of no profit to them.

In Romans 11 Paul warned Gentile Christians of being cut off from God’s blessings if they do no continue in His goodness:

Romans 11:22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

Paul spoke of people in God’s goodness (not unregenerate, totally depraved individuals who are wholly defiled in all faculties and parts of soul and body) who if they did not continue therein, they would be cut off.

I am going to give a couple of final passages showing how unscriptural the doctrine of perseverance of saints is. In both of these passages Paul warned Christians not to cause their brethren to sin in matters of judgment. In the first, Paul said:
Romans 14:15 15 But if thy brother be grieved with thy meat, now walkest thou not charitably. Destroy not him with thy meat, for whom Christ died.
1 Corinthians 8:11 11 For through your knowledge he who is weak is ruined, the brother for whose sake Christ died. (Note: the Greek for “ruined” here is: (apollumi) Meaning: to destroy, destroy utterly)

Here we find Christ died for some who may be lost. These verses present unanswerable difficulties to both the doctrines of Limited Atonemant and the Perseverance of Saints. Here are ones purchased by the blood of Christ destroyed and perishing!!

[Ironside]

I know its a tough topic but i had to ask it.

My youth group talked about this but never came to a conclusion so i would like to know what you guys think :-D


The doctrine is soo biblical.

Salvation is based on the Lord's complete and perfect sacrifice for sins past, present and future sins.

Heb 10:12 But this Man, after He had offered one sacrifice for sins forever, sat down at the right hand of God,

13 from that time waiting till His enemies are made His footstool.

14 For by one offering He has perfected forever those who are being sanctified.


Heb 9:12 Not with the blood of goats and calves, but with His own blood He entered the Most Holy Place once for all, having obtained eternal redemption.

Ro 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus.


Joh 10:26 "But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep, as I said to you.

27 "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me.

28 "And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand


Question: "John 10:28 says that they shall never perish and neither shall anyone snatch them out of MY hand......no third party can take away the believer from God's hands........but what if the believer himself will jump out of that hand?"


That is not possible. You see that word up there 'perish'? You see in the original Greek, the word is in the middle voice. There are three voices in Greek: the active voice, the passive voice and the middle voice.

Active voice is an action done by the subject to another person or thing.
Example: i punch Jason.

"I" was the doer of the action. Jason got the recieving end of my actiion. I was active in doing the action.


Passive voice is an action done by someone to me.

Example: i was punched by Jason

I did nothing but was only the reciever of Jason's punch.

Middle voice is an action done by the subject to himself.

Example: I punched myself.


In Greek the word perish is in the middle voice........so the more accurate translation of the verse 28 is:


28 "And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish themselves; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand


Yup they shall never perish themselves. They wont jump out of God's hand.

That's in line with the saving Grace the New Covenant has:

Jer 32:39 'then I will give them one heart and one way, that they may fear Me forever, for the good of them and their children after them.

40 'And I will make an everlasting covenant with them, that I will not turn away from doing them good; but I will put My fear in their hearts so that they will not depart from Me.

This maybe maybe a covenant primarily directed to Israel but during this dispensation the beneficiaries of the New Covenant is the Church [Christians].

Seeming verses in the Bible which seem to contradict this doctrine is just apparent not real contradiction to the doctrine of eternal security. Verses like Hebrews 6, Hebrews 10 , 2 Peter 2 and 1 John 2 and etc.

[Ironside]

I know its a tough topic but i had to ask it.

My youth group talked about this but never came to a conclusion so i would like to know what you guys think :-D


The doctrine is soo biblical.

Salvation is based on the Lord's complete and perfect sacrifice for sins past, present and future sins.

Heb 10:12 But this Man, after He had offered one sacrifice for sins forever, sat down at the right hand of God,

13 from that time waiting till His enemies are made His footstool.

14 For by one offering He HAS PERFECTED FOREVER those who are being sanctified.


Heb 9:12 Not with the blood of goats and calves, but with His own blood He entered the Most Holy Place once for all, having obtained ETERNAL REDEMPTION.

Ro 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus.


Joh 10:26 "But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep, as I said to you.

27 "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me.

28 "And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand


Question: "John 10:28 says that they shall never PERISH and neither shall anyone snatch them out of MY hand......no third party can take away the believer from God's hands........but what if the believer himself will jump out of that hand?"


That is not possible. You see that word up there 'perish'? You see in the original Greek, the word is in the middle voice. There are three voices in Greek: the active voice, the passive voice and the middle voice.

Active voice is an action done by the subject to another person or thing.
Example: i punch Jason.

"I" was the doer of the action. Jason got the recieving end of my actiion. I was active in doing the action.


Passive voice is an action done by someone to me.

Example: i was punched by Jason

I did nothing but was only the reciever of Jason's punch.

Middle voice is an action done by the subject to himself.

Example: I punched myself.


In Greek the word perish is in the middle voice........so the more accurate translation of the verse 28 is:


28 "And I give them eternal life, and they shall never PERISH THEMSELVES; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand


Yup they shall never perish themselves. They wont jump out of God's hand.

That's in line with the saving Grace the New Covenant has:

Jer 32:39 'then I will give them one heart and one way, THAT THEY MAY FEAR ME FOREVER, for the good of them and their children after them.

40 'And I will make an everlasting covenant with them, that I will not turn away from doing them good; BUT I WILL PUT MY FEAR IN THEIR HEARTS SO THAT THEY WILL NOT DEPART FROM ME.

This maybe maybe a covenant primarily directed to Israel but during this dispensation the beneficiaries of the New Covenant is the Church [Christians].

Seeming verses in the Bible which seem to contradict this doctrine is just apparent not real contradiction to the doctrine of eternal security. Verses like Hebrews 6, Hebrews 10 , 2 Peter 2 and 1 John 2 and etc.

[blueheron32]

charles said...

"Here we find Christ died for some who may be lost. These verses present unanswerable difficulties to both the doctrines of Limited Atonemant and the Perseverance of Saints. Here are ones purchased by the blood of Christ destroyed and perishing!!"

If the calvinsists have unanswereable difficulties because of these passages, which I dont believe they do...those who preach free will, or arminianism, have an even bigger problem....they believe that Christ died for everyone, so in their case every one who goes to hell will be there in spite of the fact that christ died for them, and atoned for all their sins..

In both the case of national israel, and the new testament church, the whole body of people in view were spoken of as belonging to God...they were all especially identified with the covenant.. but also in both cases, only a remnant of them were saved. all of israel was Gods...but only a remnant were saved..the elect...all of the "church" is spoken of as belonging to God and purchased by him...but only a remnant are saved at any given time in history...the elect, ...the difficulty is not unanswereable charles.. it is simply that the answer is un acceptable to you...because you insist that you get some little credit for your own salvation....so be it..

Joh 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.
Joh 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
Joh 6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
Joh 6:47 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.
Joh 10:29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

blueheron32

[Javert03]

"Will not forever turn away"??? Well, what do you call that? Isn't that "once you were saved and not matter what, in the end you will be saved"?? LOL

Precisely. But it doesn't end there. When somebody is saved, they will not lose their salvation, because Christ has bought and redeemed them and given them grace so that they cannot and will not ever do anything to merit the taking away of their salvation.

John 10:27-30
27 "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. 28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father’s hand. 30 I and My Father are one."


Perseverance of Saints is the last part of Calvin's great T.U.L.I.P....with the "P" standing for Perseverance of Saints. Calvin taught that man is totally hereditarily depraved. Since Calvinists believe man can do nothing, but evil on his own, they require God's unconditional election to save him. God must then call that individual in an irresistible way to salvation. Consequently, that man needs to do nothing to remain saved. To Calvinists, one's salvation that is depending on himself in any way whatsoever, overthrows the miraculous work of God in saving him.

I agree 100%. :-D God does the calling. We respond.

1 John 4:19
"We love Him because He first loved us."

And because we love Him, we will honor and obey Him. And we will have the Holy Spirit forever.

John 14:15-17
15 “If you love Me, keep My commandments. 16 And I will pray the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may abide with you forever— 17 the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him; but you know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you."

The Greek word for "forever" is "aion" meaning forever or eternal, without end. It can even include the past! (Strong's Concordance)

John 15:5-6 5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing. {without me: or, severed from me}

Amen! Without God we are totally depraved and can do nothing good, not even seek God.

Psalm 14:2-3
2 The LORD looks down from heaven upon the children of men,
To see if there are any who understand, who seek God.
3 They have all turned aside,
They have together become corrupt;
There is none who does good,
No, not one.

6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.


These verses speak of an individual who first abides in Jesus and then chooses not to abide in Him. Is it possible for a Christian not to abide in Christ? If not, then Jesus’ warning has no meaning.

Christ was simply making distinction between Christians who bear fruit and sinners who go to hell. Compare to Matthew 13:37-43:

40 Therefore as the tares are gathered and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of this age. 41 The Son of Man will send out His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all things that offend, and those who practice lawlessness, 42 and will cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

If it is possible for a Christian not to abide in Christ, and he does not, and will not repent, his end is destruction!!

Please define "Christian". If a "Christian" can not abide in Christ, how is this person any different from the unbeliever? If this person does not and will not repent, he was never saved to begin with. If he is truly a Christian, he will repent.

Mathew 18:12
12 “What do you think? If a man has a hundred sheep, and one of them goes astray, does he not leave the ninety-nine and go to the mountains to seek the one that is straying?"

Paul warned the Galatians about the danger of going back to the Law of Moses for justification after they became Christians...

...They cannot be severed from something they were not joined to, and they cannot “fall out” of something there were not in....

Here I believe we need to make a distinction between the visible and the invisible Chruch. Simply calling yourself a Christian does not mean you're saved. But from our perspective, such people are still part of the Church. The visible Church includes all who claim Christ. The invisible Church are those who are truly saved, the "walk the walk" Christians.

The Galatians were part of the visible Church. Some of them fell away, thus showing that they weren't saved. These "fell away" and were "estranged from Christ."

In Romans 11 Paul warned Gentile Christians of being cut off from God’s blessings if they do no continue in His goodness:

Romans 11:22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

If continuing in His goodness is a sign of our salvation as Christ said, (as I mentioned in my previous post), then we better make sure we're do it. Our not doing so would give us reason to doubt our salvation.

About 1 Corinthians 8: It is true that we can "ruin" our brother by our actions. But God will bring him back. As I mentioned before, Christ said "no one is able to snatch them out of My Father’s hand". I think He means it. :-D

[TheTreeOfLife]

Mark 10:26 Now they were even more astonished, saying to themselves, "Then who is able to be saved?"
Mark 10:27 But having looked attentively at them, Jesus says, "With people it is impossible, _but_ not with God! For all [things] are possible with God!"

John 10:9 "_I_ am the door. If anyone enters through Me, he will be saved, and he will come in and will go out and will find pasture.


Joel 2:32 And it shall be, whoever shall call on the name of Jehovah shall be saved


1Corinthians 1:18 For the word of the cross indeed is foolishness to the ones perishing, but to us, the ones being saved, it is [the] power of God!


When we presume to imagine that we can "un-save" ourselves we are presumming that we were responcible for saving ourselves in the first place. Yet as 1corinthinans tells us "it is the power of God", we cannot save ourselves and obviously cannot unsave ourselves.

[charlesj]

I can only post 10k characters, therefore I have broken my answer up into two parts, part 1 & part 2.

First of all if the position that I espouse is biblical why do you label it Armininaism? Jacob Arminius was a Clavinist who was attempting to reconcile some obvious dificulties while maintaning a Calvinist slant, his conclusions are flawed because he was unwilling to drop all Calvinistic dogma and just go to the bible in the same way that Calvin held firmly to Augustinianism and was attempting to "reform" the Catholic church both started in the wrong place instead of accepting opinions of uninspired men (such as the church fathers) they strained the bible through fallible human opinions. Note The Five Arminian Articles of Remonstrance

I.That God, by an eternal and unchangeable purpose in Jesus Christ His Son, before the foundations of the world were laid, determined to save, out of the human race which had fallen into sin, in Christ, for Christ's sake and through Christ, those who through the grace of the Holy Spirit shall believe on the same His Son and shall through the same grace persevere in this same faith and obedience of faith even to the end; and on the other hand to leave under sin and wrath the contumacious and unbelieving and to condemn them as aliens from Christ, according to the word of the Gospel in John 3:36, and other passages of Scripture.
II.That, accordingly, Jesus Christ, the Saviour of the world, died for all men and for every man, so that He has obtained for all, by His death on the cross, reconciliation and remission of sins; yet so that no one is partaker of this remission except the believers [John 3:16; 1 John 2:2].
III.That man has not saving grace of himself, nor of the working of his own free-will, inasmuch as in his state of apostasy and sin he can for himself and by himself think nothing that is good — nothing, that is, truly good, such as saving faith is, above all else. But that it is necessary that by God, in Christ and through His Holy Spirit he be born again and renewed in understanding, affections and will and in all his faculties, that he may be able to understand, think, will, and perform what is truly good, according to the Word of God [John 15:5].
IV.That this grace of God is the beginning, the progress and the end of all good; so that even the regenerate man can neither think, will nor effect any good, nor withstand any temptation to evil, without grace precedent (or prevenient), awakening, following and co-operating. So that all good deeds and all movements towards good that can be conceived in through must be ascribed to the grace of God in Christ. But with respect to the mode of operation, grace is not irresistible; for it is written of many that they resisted the Holy Spirit [Acts 7 and elsewhere passim].
V.That those who are grafted into Christ by a true faith, and have thereby been made partakers of His life-giving Spirit, are abundantly endowed with power to strive against Satan, sin, the world and their own flesh, and to win the victory; always, be it understood, with the help of the grace of the Holy Spirit, with Jesus Christ assisting them in all temptations, through His Spirit; stretching out His hand to them and (providing only that they are themselves prepared for the fight, that they entreat His aid and do not fail to help themselves) propping and upbuilding them so that by no guile or violence of Satan can they be led astray or plucked from Christ's hands [John 10:28].

[charlesj]

part 2 --
But for the question whether they are not able through sloth or negligence to forsake the beginning of their life in Christ, to embrace again this present world, to depart from the holy doctrine once delivered to them, to lose their good conscience and to neglect grace--this must be the subject of more exact inquiry in the Holy Scriptures, before we can teach it with full confidence of our mind
Notice that this is merely an attempt to reword Calvinism and not a decisive departure - (though to attempt to reform Calvin has always been viewed as a modification on inspiration which Calvin claimed that he possesed. Calvin had his critics silenced by torture & death)
You say that the blood of Jesus was not shed for the whole world but John says something else
(1 John 2:1-6) My little children, these things write I unto you that ye may not sin. And if any man sin, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous: and he is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for the whole world. And hereby we know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him; but whoso keepeth his word, in him verily hath the love of God been perfected. Hereby we know that we are in him: he that saith he abideth in him ought himself also to walk even as he walked. (ASV)
notice that both the “elect” and the “world” have the propitiation of the blood of Christ available to them. Those who receive the blessing, are those who keep his word.
You may say that the world is not the lost, but notice the use of the word in vs. 15-17

(1 John 2:15-17) Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him. For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh and the lust of the eyes and the vain glory of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world. And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever. (ASV)

all can leave the world by doing the will of the Father, and so God is longsuffering toward all
(2 Peter 3:9) The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some count slackness; but is longsuffering to you-ward, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. (ASV)
Is this all the elect or all the world?
In both the case of national israel, and the new testament church, the whole body of people in view were spoken of as belonging to God...they were all especially identified with the covenant.. but also in both cases, only a remnant of them were saved. all of israel was Gods...but only a remnant were saved..the elect...all of the "church" is spoken of as belonging to God and purchased by him...but only a remnant are saved at any given time in history...the elect, ...the difficulty is not unanswereable charles.. it is simply that the answer is un acceptable to you...because you insist that you get some little credit for your own salvation....so be it..

Why was only a remnant saved? Only a remnant kept the covenant it was not too hard there was plenty of grace available through the sacrificial system

(Deuteronomy 30:10-20) if thou shalt obey the voice of Jehovah thy God, to keep his commandments and his statutes which are written in this book of the law; if thou turn unto Jehovah thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul. For this commandment which I command thee this day, it is not too hard for thee, neither is it far off. It is not in heaven, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go up for us to heaven, and bring it unto us, and make us to hear it, that we may do it? Neither is it beyond the sea, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go over the sea for us, and bring it unto us, and make us to hear it, that we may do it? But the word is very nigh unto thee, in thy mouth, and in thy heart, that thou mayest do it. See, I have set before thee this day life and good, and death and evil; in that I command thee this day to love Jehovah thy God, to walk in his ways, and to keep his commandments and his statutes and his ordinances, that thou mayest live and multiply, and that Jehovah thy God may bless thee in the land whither thou goest in to possess it. But if thy heart turn away, and thou wilt not hear, but shalt be drawn away, and worship other gods, and serve them; I denounce unto you this day, that ye shall surely perish; ye shall not prolong your days in the land, whither thou passest over the Jordan to go in to possess it. I call heaven and earth to witness against you this day, that I have set before thee life and death, the blessing and the curse: therefore choose life, that thou mayest live, thou and thy seed; to love Jehovah thy God, to obey his voice, and to cleave unto him; for he is thy life, and the length of thy days; that thou mayest dwell in the land which Jehovah sware unto thy fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, to give them. (ASV)

– the majority chose to serve Idols like the nations round about them. Note the comparison!
(1 Corinthians 10:1-14) For I would not, brethren, have you ignorant, that our fathers were all under the cloud, and all passed through the sea; and were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea; and did all eat the same spiritual food; and did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of a spiritual rock that followed them: and the rock was Christ. Howbeit with most of them God was not well pleased: for they were overthrown in the wilderness. Now these things were our examples, to the intent we should not lust after evil things, as they also lusted. Neither be ye idolaters, as were some of them; as it is written, The people sat down to eat and drink, and rose up to play. Neither let us commit fornication, as some of them committed, and fell in one day three and twenty thousand. Neither let us make trial of the Lord, as some of them made trial, and perished by the serpents. Neither murmur ye, as some of them murmured, and perished by the destroyer. Now these things happened unto them by way of example; and they were written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the ages are come. Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall. There hath no temptation taken you but such as man can bear: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation make also the way of escape, that ye may be able to endure it. Wherefore, my beloved, flee from idolatry. (ASV)
The remnant are the faithful not the recipients of irresistible grace note that these people are our examples.
Joh 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.
Joh 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
Joh 6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
Joh 6:47 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.
Joh 10:29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

How does your point square with Heb. 6:4-8
For as touching those who were once enlightened and tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Spirit, and tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the age to come, and then fell away, it is impossible to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame. For the land which hath drunk the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them for whose sake it is also tilled, receiveth blessing from God: but if it beareth thorns and thistles, it is rejected and nigh unto a curse; whose end is to be burned.

Explain how that these were not regenerated and yet not eternally saved ! you can only do it (Honestly) if you drop Calvin & accept the truly inspired men, the apostles!

[OneJoe]

So what is the truth? You've claimed that this is an unbiblical doctrine, but I didn't catch any reason why.

The doctrine of "once saved, always saved" comes in many different flavors. And it's not "strictly Calvinistic". Calvin didn't believe in "once saved, always saved". Instead he believed in what is now referred to as "perseverance of the saints."

"Perseverance of the Saints" is the doctrine that those who are truly saved will not forever turn away from the Lord. Not that they simply cannot lose their salvation, but that they will not forever turn away. ..."




"Will not forever turn away"??? Well, what do you call that? Isn't that "once you were saved and not matter what, in the end you will be saved"?? LOL

Ok, I was in a hurry this morning when I typed what I did (didn't use scripture.) I am restoring a house and wanted to spend a half day worth of work...so I did. Now, I have a little more time....

Perseverance of Saints is the last part of Calvin's great T.U.L.I.P....with the "P" standing for Perseverance of Saints. Calvin taught that man is totally hereditarily depraved. Since Calvinists believe man can do nothing, but evil on his own, they require God's unconditional election to save him. God must then call that individual in an irresistible way to salvation. Consequently, that man needs to do nothing to remain saved. To Calvinists, one's salvation that is depending on himself in any way whatsoever, overthrows the miraculous work of God in saving him.

John 15:5-6 5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing. {without me: or, severed from me} 6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.


These verses speak of an individual who first abides in Jesus and then chooses not to abide in Him. Is it possible for a Christian not to abide in Christ? If not, then Jesus’ warning has no meaning. If it is possible for a Christian not to abide in Christ, and he does not, and will not repent, his end is destruction!!


Paul warned the Galatians about the danger of going back to the Law of Moses for justification after they became Christians:

Galatians 5:2-4 Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing. For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law. Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

This passage is directed toward those who were true Christians, for Paul told them in Galatians 3:26
Galatians 3:26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

Paul, who spoke by inspiration, tells us these people are children of God. A Calvinist must admit they were elect, otherwise they couldn’t have faith. Yet Paul said it’s possible for such Christians to conduct themselves in a way where Christ can become of not profit to them, and they can be severed from Christ from (Greek “ek” meaning “out of”) grace. They cannot be severed from something they were not joined to, and they cannot “fall out” of something there were not in. No plainer statement could be made that children of God by faith can be severed from Christ and fall from grace, so Christ is become of no profit to them.

In Romans 11 Paul warned Gentile Christians of being cut off from God’s blessings if they do no continue in His goodness:

Romans 11:22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

Paul spoke of people in God’s goodness (not unregenerate, totally depraved individuals who are wholly defiled in all faculties and parts of soul and body) who if they did not continue therein, they would be cut off.

I am going to give a couple of final passages showing how unscriptural the doctrine of perseverance of saints is. In both of these passages Paul warned Christians not to cause their brethren to sin in matters of judgment. In the first, Paul said:
Romans 14:15 15 But if thy brother be grieved with thy meat, now walkest thou not charitably. Destroy not him with thy meat, for whom Christ died.
1 Corinthians 8:11 11 For through your knowledge he who is weak is ruined, the brother for whose sake Christ died. (Note: the Greek for “ruined” here is: (apollumi) Meaning: to destroy, destroy utterly)

Here we find Christ died for some who may be lost. These verses present unanswerable difficulties to both the doctrines of Limited Atonemant and the Perseverance of Saints. Here are ones purchased by the blood of Christ destroyed and perishing!!
John 15:5-6 5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing. {without me: or, severed from me} 6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.


These verses speak of an individual who first abides in Jesus and then chooses not to abide in Him. Is it possible for a Christian not to abide in Christ? If not, then Jesus’ warning has no meaning. If it is possible for a Christian not to abide in Christ, and he does not, and will not repent, his end is destruction!!

It's amazing how something so false can be added with only a few words. First, that verse says absolutely nothing about someone choosing to not abide in Christ. The idea that it is our "choice" to abide in Christ or not abide in him is in no way mentioned in that scripture. You have added to it what you want it to say. Perhaps if you gave scripture that lead you to believe why you think it is our choice then it might could pass off as a believable lie, but as it is it states nothing about choice.

The fact is, those who abide in Christ are the ones God called and chose to save. The bible is clear that those whom God has chosen to save and abide in Christ WILL be faithful to the end. Look in Revelations.

Rev 17:14 These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful.

That is an interesting verse. Clearly those whom God has chosen will remain faithful until the end. All through out the bible we see "IF" we do this "IF" we do that. And the result is his chosen WILL do has the father commands because they are the chosen and faithful.

Phi 1:6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:

hmmm...he is working in us and WILL perform it until the day of Jesus Christ...sounds like a promise to me that we can not lose our salvation because he is working in us.

Heb 13:21 Make you perfect in every good work to do his will, working in you that which is wellpleasing in his sight, through Jesus Christ; to whom be glory forever and ever. Amen.

Also, did Christ die for everyone..including those that would perish...I think not. ...Eph 5:25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it; .........that verse speaks of the Husband loving the wife; however, it also says that Christ gave himself for the church. That is the body of believers, not everyone.


Onejoe

[jc_fide]

This is strictly a Calvinistic doctrine,

what do youmean its a cavanistic doctrine? I believe in once saved always saved and i am not a calvanistic. The bible clear states that believers will never perish. John 3:16 says it all:-)

[charlesj]

The doctrine is soo biblical.



Seeming verses in the Bible which seem to contradict this doctrine is just apparent not real contradiction to the doctrine of eternal security. Verses like Hebrews 6, Hebrews 10 , 2 Peter 2 and 1 John 2 and etc.

Simple Questions

1. Can a christian be Severed Christ & Fall from Grace? you say No! But Paul Said Yes

Ga 5:1 For freedom did Christ set us free: stand fast therefore, and be not entangled again in a yoke of bondage.
Ga 5:2 Behold, I Paul say unto you, that, if ye receive circumcision, Christ will profit you nothing.
Ga 5:3 Yea, I testify again to every man that receiveth circumcision, that he is a debtor to do the whole law.
Ga 5:4 Ye are severed from Christ, ye would be justified by the law; ye are fallen away from grace.
Ga 5:5 For we through the Spirit by faith wait for the hope of righteousness.
(ASV)
one canot be severed from somthing that he is not connected to or fall fromsomething that he does not possess

2. Can A Christain love the world so as to perish? you say No! John Said yes!

1Jo 2:15 Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.
1Jo 2:16 For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh and the lust of the eyes and the vain glory of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.
1Jo 2:17 And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever.
(ASV)

why would he warn Christians about loving the world if they could not? And if they can, then they can perish with the world too!

3. Can A christian be led away by false teachers so that his love Grows Cold and loose salvation? you say No! Jesus said yes!

Mt 24:11 And many false prophets shall arise, and shall lead many astray.
Mt 24:12 And because iniquity shall be multiplied, the love of the many shall wax cold.
Mt 24:13 But he that endureth to the end, the same shall be saved.
(ASV)

In all of the NT there are more warnings about the possibility of leaving Christ then any other topic. Why so many warnings if Apostacy is impossible ?

John 15:6 6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.

"If a man abide not in me..." The Greek word 'abide' = meno... present tense, means "continues to remain"; some translate 'meine, arorist, "remain permanently." The condition of expectancy (Greek "ean" with the subjunctive) intimates that some will, indeed fail to remain in Jesus.
Jesus says only, "if any man remains not in me," but He doesnt' say "and I not in him"; for He never refuses to remain in us if only we remain in him!! It's never a question of His willingness, but only of ours.

Semper Fi!
your servant Christ,
charlesj

[OneVoice]

So what is the truth? You've claimed that this is an unbiblical doctrine, but I didn't catch any reason why.
Galtatians 5:24 says:

If you are saved and have commited your life to Christ, your old man has been crucified, and God will give you the grace to persevere to the end. God bless you!

I'm gonna guess, since,since i dont read charles, that there is a solid stand on salvation being a temporary thing?
That salvation can be gained BY US and therefore it can be lost BY US?

I can see you differ with that.
I have seen this discussion before...
:)

Salvation.
It is a promise of God
John 3:16
Genesis 3:15
About half the Psalms of David or more,
EVER SO MUCH OF Isaiah!!! 7,7,8,9,51, 53

on every page we can find something of, or pertaining to, or doirectly stating God promise of salvation BY GRACE.
Grace is undeserved favor, unmeritted forgivness.

There is nothing we can do to earn our salvayion o even choose ot of our own accored.

IF WE COULD, we would not need Jesus!


We can not control any aspect of our salvation.
If we could we could save oursaelves and we would not need a redeemer.


In John 10 Jesus says nothiong can snatch us oit f the Father's hand.

Who can take anythig out of the sovereign hands of God.
Now, to people who read the Bible to know God's will and desire for thier lives, these things make perfect sence/
God is sovereign and hust.
We deserve death and Hell for our sins.
God loves us so much, instead of giving ys what we justly deserve , He dies for us.
Nit because we deserve to be redeemed at all cost, but because He loves u so much He did redeem us at all cost.

God promised to save all those who come to Him.
God promised nothoig could snatch us out of His hands. Nothing can yerminate God's redemtion, Gis salvation of all who come to Him and ae His.

The only way we can loose what God has hold of , is if God never had hold of it and it's all our own word that saves us.
And in that case we do not need a sabior and Christ dies for nothiong.

Either God is sovereign and keeps all His promises 100% without fail because He is the perfect Almighty God, or eles by our own hands we are saved and there can be no God as wel kow God.

Since God is precisely Who He says He is, He is faithful, and He is just.
But He is merciful FIRST.

And He always keeps His pomoses.

[charlesj]

Simple Questions

1. Can a christian be Severed Christ & Fall from Grace? you say No! But Paul Said Yes

Ga 5:1 For freedom did Christ set us free: stand fast therefore, and be not entangled again in a yoke of bondage.
Ga 5:2 Behold, I Paul say unto you, that, if ye receive circumcision, Christ will profit you nothing.
Ga 5:3 Yea, I testify again to every man that receiveth circumcision, that he is a debtor to do the whole law.
Ga 5:4 Ye are severed from Christ, ye would be justified by the law; ye are fallen away from grace.
Ga 5:5 For we through the Spirit by faith wait for the hope of righteousness.
(ASV)
one canot be severed from somthing that he is not connected to or fall fromsomething that he does not possess

2. Can A Christain love the world so as to perish? you say No! John Said yes!

1Jo 2:15 Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.
1Jo 2:16 For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh and the lust of the eyes and the vain glory of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.
1Jo 2:17 And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever.
(ASV)

why would he warn Christians about loving the world if they could not? And if they can, then they can perish with the world too!

3. Can A christian be led away by false teachers so that his love Grows Cold and loose salvation? you say No! Jesus said yes!

Mt 24:11 And many false prophets shall arise, and shall lead many astray.
Mt 24:12 And because iniquity shall be multiplied, the love of the many shall wax cold.
Mt 24:13 But he that endureth to the end, the same shall be saved.
(ASV)

In all of the NT there are more warnings about the possibility of leaving Christ then any other topic. Why so many warnings if Apostacy is impossible ?

John 15:6 6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.

"If a man abide not in me..." The Greek word 'abide' = meno... present tense, means "continues to remain"; some translate 'meine, arorist, "remain permanently." The condition of expectancy (Greek "ean" with the subjunctive) intimates that some will, indeed fail to remain in Jesus.
Jesus says only, "if any man remains not in me," but He doesnt' say "and I not in him"; for He never refuses to remain in us if only we remain in him!! It's never a question of His willingness, but only of ours.

Semper Fi!
your servant Christ,
charlesj


one other thought

Joh 10:26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep.
Joh 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
Joh 10:28 and I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, and no one shall snatch them out of my hand.
(ASV)

The point in this passage is who is listening & following One is the lord's sheep AS HE CONTINUES to listen & Follow Jesus if he stops listening & following he is not the Lord's sheep hence the wornings of scripture Remember

2Ti 4:10 for Demas forsook me, having loved this present world, and went to Thessalonica; Crescens to Galatia, Titus to Dalmatia.

24 and so do Mark, Aristarchus, Demas, Luke, my fellow-workers.

One may say he was really never a Christian, but at one time Paul claimed him! how can people living 2000 years later say an inspired man was wrong! He was a Christain, but he did not heed the warning and began loving this present world!
Is that a fair understanding? Only so, if one will drop a theory that is not consistant with the major themes of the NT.

[jc_fide]

[QUOTE=OneVoice]
Salvation.
It is a promise of God
John 3:16
Genesis 3:15
About half the Psalms of David or more,
EVER SO MUCH OF Isaiah!!! 7,7,8,9,51, 53

on every page we can find something of, or pertaining to, or doirectly stating God promise of salvation BY GRACE.
Grace is undeserved favor, unmeritted forgivness. [QUOTE]

I have to agree with one voice. Salvation is free to those who accept him, how can God tell lies. He has said in his word that who so ever believes in him will not perish but have eternal life. Just looking at this verse is enough to tell me that salvation can not be lost. Right on ONEVOICE:-D

[OneJoe]

Simple Questions

1. Can a christian be Severed Christ & Fall from Grace? you say No! But Paul Said Yes

Ga 5:1 For freedom did Christ set us free: stand fast therefore, and be not entangled again in a yoke of bondage.
Ga 5:2 Behold, I Paul say unto you, that, if ye receive circumcision, Christ will profit you nothing.
Ga 5:3 Yea, I testify again to every man that receiveth circumcision, that he is a debtor to do the whole law.
Ga 5:4 Ye are severed from Christ, ye would be justified by the law; ye are fallen away from grace.
Ga 5:5 For we through the Spirit by faith wait for the hope of righteousness.
(ASV)
one canot be severed from somthing that he is not connected to or fall fromsomething that he does not possess

2. Can A Christain love the world so as to perish? you say No! John Said yes!

1Jo 2:15 Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.
1Jo 2:16 For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh and the lust of the eyes and the vain glory of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.
1Jo 2:17 And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever.
(ASV)

why would he warn Christians about loving the world if they could not? And if they can, then they can perish with the world too!

3. Can A christian be led away by false teachers so that his love Grows Cold and loose salvation? you say No! Jesus said yes!

Mt 24:11 And many false prophets shall arise, and shall lead many astray.
Mt 24:12 And because iniquity shall be multiplied, the love of the many shall wax cold.
Mt 24:13 But he that endureth to the end, the same shall be saved.
(ASV)

In all of the NT there are more warnings about the possibility of leaving Christ then any other topic. Why so many warnings if Apostacy is impossible ?

John 15:6 6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.

"If a man abide not in me..." The Greek word 'abide' = meno... present tense, means "continues to remain"; some translate 'meine, arorist, "remain permanently." The condition of expectancy (Greek "ean" with the subjunctive) intimates that some will, indeed fail to remain in Jesus.
Jesus says only, "if any man remains not in me," but He doesnt' say "and I not in him"; for He never refuses to remain in us if only we remain in him!! It's never a question of His willingness, but only of ours.

Semper Fi!
your servant Christ,
charlesj
Simple Questions

1. Can a christian be Severed Christ & Fall from Grace? you say No! But Paul Said Yes

Ga 5:1 For freedom did Christ set us free: stand fast therefore, and be not entangled again in a yoke of bondage.
Ga 5:2 Behold, I Paul say unto you, that, if ye receive circumcision, Christ will profit you nothing.
Ga 5:3 Yea, I testify again to every man that receiveth circumcision, that he is a debtor to do the whole law.
Ga 5:4 Ye are severed from Christ, ye would be justified by the law; ye are fallen away from grace.
Ga 5:5 For we through the Spirit by faith wait for the hope of righteousness.
(ASV)
one canot be severed from somthing that he is not connected to or fall fromsomething that he does not possess

How do you know they are truely saved. Could they not just be called and not yet chosen? After all, the Galatians were so soon removed from the truth of the Gospel and did not Paul wonder if he had labored in vain? The called by God must also do the will of God. He who does not will be severed according to God's will.

3. Can A christian be led away by false teachers so that his love Grows Cold and loose salvation? you say No! Jesus said yes!

Mt 24:11 And many false prophets shall arise, and shall lead many astray.
Mt 24:12 And because iniquity shall be multiplied, the love of the many shall wax cold.
Mt 24:13 But he that endureth to the end, the same shall be saved.
(ASV)

I see you did not post verse 24 of the same chapter. It certainly can clear this up.

Mat 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
Mar 13:22 For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall show signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect


Those are clear. IF it were possible, but it is not. God has given his children ears to hear and eyes to see and they will see the wolf in sheeps clothing. You posted the one that says "but he who endureth unto the end" meanwhile Revelation says those that are with him are the called, chosen, and faithful. Those that are with him and remained faithful are those he predestined. Therefore, his chosen, his elect, certainly remained faithful; at least those he intended to save. Meanwhile, the rest who had not yet obtained salvation fall away.


John 15:6 6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.

"If a man abide not in me..." The Greek word 'abide' = meno... present tense, means "continues to remain"; some translate 'meine, arorist, "remain permanently." The condition of expectancy (Greek "ean" with the subjunctive) intimates that some will, indeed fail to remain in Jesus.
Jesus says only, "if any man remains not in me," but He doesnt' say "and I not in him"; for He never refuses to remain in us if only we remain in him!! It's never a question of His willingness, but only of ours.

Same thing here, many are called, few chosen. There are in fact some that fall away from Christ, but according to Hebrews chapter six, they were never saved. They only "tasted" of the heavenly gift. They had not yet obtained salvation. So the topic here is can God's truely saved, those he intended to be saved, fall away from Grace. Well, the bible is clear that some will fall away, but they were not saved as of yet, but those whom God has chosen before the world remain faithful unto the end.


Onejoe

[charlesj]

How do you know they are truely saved. Could they not just be called and not yet chosen? After all, the Galatians were so soon removed from the truth of the Gospel and did not Paul wonder if he had labored in vain? The called by God must also do the will of God. He who does not will be severed according to God's will.

Onejoe

How do you know they were NOT saved? HUH??? lol

I've posted what I think to be truth. I've heard these arguments over the last 36 years, even the "name calling" by religious holy people.
I do respect you and your beliefs, but do not agree with them.

your servant in Jesus,
charlesj

[germanJoy]

This topic "once saved always saved" against "work out your salvation with fear and trembling" (WOYS) is in parallel with "predestination" against "free will". Unless one sees that both are biblical, it will remain an endless discussion.

"Once saved always saved" (OSAS) is partly true but can encourage many christians to "take their salvation for granted". I have seen how believers fell easily into habitual sin because they are assured of their salvation leading many souls into the kingdom of darkness.

A wise christian would weigh things properly out. We have many scriptures supporting "OSAS" as well as "WOYS", and also several scriptures supporting "Predestination" as well as "Free Will".

So the conclusion is WE NEED TO TEACH AND PREACH BOTH. We need to assure "faithful" believers of their salvation and be able to warn "unfaithful" believers of their judgement. No room for compromise, we have to preach the PURE Word of God.

God bless you all! charlesj, you are absolutely right...and all who were in disagreement with charlesj. :-)

[Godsent]

I know its a tough topic but i had to ask it.

My youth group talked about this but never came to a conclusion so i would like to know what you guys think :-D
Yes...I believe once saved is always saved except in terms of blasphemy the unpardonable sin. For info. on blasphemy either check my post on it way back when or u can go to Lucys post called "does God grade sins" and my thoughts on blasphemy are clearly stated there.

[blueheron32]

This topic "once saved always saved" against "work out your salvation with fear and trembling" (WOYS) is in parallel with "predestination" against "free will". Unless one sees that both are biblical, it will remain an endless discussion.

"Once saved always saved" (OSAS) is partly true but can encourage many christians to "take their salvation for granted". I have seen how believers fell easily into habitual sin because they are assured of their salvation leading many souls into the kingdom of darkness.

A wise christian would weigh things properly out. We have many scriptures supporting "OSAS" as well as "WOYS", and also several scriptures supporting "Predestination" as well as "Free Will".

So the conclusion is WE NEED TO TEACH AND PREACH BOTH. We need to assure "faithful" believers of their salvation and be able to warn "unfaithful" believers of their judgement. No room for compromise, we have to preach the PURE Word of God.

God bless you all! charlesj, you are absolutely right...and all who were in disagreement with charlesj. :-)

You are right germanjoy...it will be an endless discussion, and it has been an endless discussion, not just here but throughout the history of man. The first practitioner of free will, or, coming to God on the basis of ones own merits, was cain..and the first practitioner of salvation by grace alone was abel. And as you know Cain slew Abel his brother, because he knew that God accepted Abel and his sacrifice, and Had rejected Cain and his sacrifice.

Another example of this is seen again between two brothers, Ishmael and Isaac. Ishmael was the product, of an attempt to fulfill the promise of God by human effort. Isaac was born according to Gods promise with no credit applied to human effort. And again we see persecution by the works child against the child of promise.

Gal 4:29 But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.

Even so it is now germanjoy, and so it will ever be, until the end of the age. We cannot take away the dispute by saying they are the same.. The RCC, the ultimate example of a works, free will, based religion, was confronted by the gospel of sola gratia, sola fide, sola christos, and responded by slaughtering millions, at the instructions of their bloodthirsty popes and cardinals...their canon law still insists they have the right to burn heretics like me, and I am confident if they still had the civil authority, they would do exactly that.

But today, what do we see germanjoy? We see a bunch of prissy protestants whose ancestors willingly went to the stake rather than give up the truth of the gospel, joining again happily hand in hand with the RCC, pretending that all the blood of the martyrs was just a silly misunderstanding... people like chuck colson, bill bright, J I Packer, Pat robertson, john rodgers, max lucado, and many many more I could name and document, are demonstrating that the deadly wound has been healed, and the churches of our day, are indeed becoming the great whore of revelation. Giving evidence that indeed Satan the antichrist, the man of sin, the son of perdition, has taken his seat and is ruling there.

This is not a personal indictment against you germanjoy, I have too much respect for you and love you in the Lord. But in this matter you are dreadfully wrong.

1Ki 18:21 And Elijah came unto all the people, and said, How long halt ye between two opinions? if the LORD be God, follow him: but if Baal, then follow him. And the people answered him not a word.

I for one will not be silent germanjoy...The Lord, He is God. And as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord.

always your friend
blueheron32

[blueheron32]

charles...

Am I a calvinist charles..? When have you ever heard me quote calvin? When have you ever heard me say calvin was inspired? I suspect never :-)

For your information, I was raised by a free will preacher. I was a member of a free will church until I was about forty years old. I was a pastor of a freewill church for five years. So I know your position inside and out, and could defend it as well as you think you are doing. I have been called a disciple of calvin many times and am not particularly offended...:-) If you would, pray for me that I will be such a servant of God as he was.

I did not leave the free will position because of Calvin. I have never been part of a calvinist church. I turned from the free will gospel to the true gospel, because I was compelled to by the Holy Spirit as he opened my eyes to the truth of what the scripture says. As a free will preacher, I could not understand much of the Bible and could not preach on it because I could not reconcile it with my free will position. Do I now have all the answers to be able to satisfy you as you continue to contend for your position? No. Am I required to answer you to your satisfaction? No. But even though I cant answer you to your satisfaction, does that mean my answers are not adequate? No. If I cannot answer your questions at all, does that mean that there is not an answer that completely answers your objections? No. I am confident that any objection you might have to "Calvinism" as you call it, I call it biblicism..:-) can be answered and probably has been answered in the past.

I have held both postitions, and the questions I had as a free will christian, have been answered by the gospel of the Grace of the Lord Jesus Christ. The truth of sola gratia, is reinforced every time I read the bible, and I marvel at the wonderful grace of God.

The questions you asked I can answer, but I doubt you will accept my answers, a verse comes to mind, but I wont quote it...:-) Instead let me leave you with a question for now..or challenge perhaps..

When you can convince me that a dead man can will or do or act....in any way other than to simply sink deeper and deeper into rot and decay...then I will listen.

blueheron32

[Bikn4God]

I believe that if one denies the Holy Spirit.... you are doomed and lost.

If you believe in Christ, ask Him for the forgiveness of your sins, based on His sacrifice on the cross at Calvary, and ask Him to be your Lord and Savior, then you are saved. And saved for life.

Then the question is raised... Well...what if you, as a Christian, sins?

If a Christian sins, you drive a wedge in the fellowship between you and God. And until you repent, "turn from", you will have a fractured fellowship with God. If you confess those sins to God, He is faithful to forgive you. Your fellowship with God is restored.

If we were to lose our salvation for this and that... then what was the point of Christ going to the cross in the first place? We'd still be carrying the ball by our works, not by the shed blood of Christ. If we are to go by our works, good deeds, etc.... we are truly doomed.

Muslims believe in scales. If you do more wrong than right, then you go to hell. If you do more right than wrong, Allah accepts and you go to heaven.

The true God, does not work that way. A Christian is redeemed not by what he/she does, but by what Christ did. That is the ONLY way to heaven, because by ourselves, we could never make it. We're given grace by God...a gift none of us deserve. But it's nonetheless a gift. And those who choose Christ have eternal life. And no one can snatch us from His hands.

You asked... I replied.

I thank you.

CJ
SFFS

[Godsent]

I believe that if one denies the Holy Spirit.... you are doomed and lost.

If you believe in Christ, ask Him for the forgiveness of your sins, based on His sacrifice on the cross at Calvary, and ask Him to be your Lord and Savior, then you are saved. And saved for life.

Then the question is raised... Well...what if you, as a Christian, sins?

If a Christian sins, you drive a wedge in the fellowship between you and God. And until you repent, "turn from", you will have a fractured fellowship with God. If you confess those sins to God, He is faithful to forgive you. Your fellowship with God is restored.

If we were to lose our salvation for this and that... then what was the point of Christ going to the cross in the first place? We'd still be carrying the ball by our works, not by the shed blood of Christ. If we are to go by our works, good deeds, etc.... we are truly doomed.

Muslims believe in scales. If you do more wrong than right, then you go to hell. If you do more right than wrong, Allah accepts and you go to heaven.

The true God, does not work that way. A Christian is redeemed not by what he/she does, but by what Christ did. That is the ONLY way to heaven, because by ourselves, we could never make it. We're given grace by God...a gift none of us deserve. But it's nonetheless a gift. And those who choose Christ have eternal life. And no one can snatch us from His hands.

You asked... I replied.

I thank you.

CJ
SFFS
Wow bikin...i agree on what u have to say on this topic also...:)

[germanJoy]

Whether blueheron believes it or not, my Lord Jesus confirmed with His words that all believers (without exception) will be judged by their works. So this breaks the "once saved always saved" apart.

14“For it is as if a man, going on a journey, summoned his slaves and entrusted his property to them; 15to one he gave five talents, to another two, to another one, to each according to his ability. Then he went away. 16The one who had received the five talents went off at once and traded with them, and made five more talents. 17In the same way, the one who had the two talents made two more talents. 18But the one who had received the one talent went off and dug a hole in the ground and hid his master’s money. 19After a long time the master of those slaves came and settled accounts with them. 20Then the one who had received the five talents came forward, bringing five more talents, saying, ‘Master, you handed over to me five talents; see, I have made five more talents.’ 21His master said to him, ‘Well done, good and trustworthy slave; you have been trustworthy in a few things, I will put you in charge of many things; enter into the joy of your master.’ 22And the one with the two talents also came forward, saying, ‘Master, you handed over to me two talents; see, I have made two more talents.’ 23His master said to him, ‘Well done, good and trustworthy slave; you have been trustworthy in a few things, I will put you in charge of many things; enter into the joy of your master.’ 24Then the one who had received the one talent also came forward, saying, ‘Master, I knew that you were a harsh man, reaping where you did not sow, and gathering where you did not scatter seed; 25so I was afraid, and I went and hid your talent in the ground. Here you have what is yours.’ 26But his master replied, ‘You wicked and lazy slave! You knew, did you, that I reap where I did not sow, and gather where I did not scatter? 27Then you ought to have invested my money with the bankers, and on my return I would have received what was my own with interest. 28So take the talent from him, and give it to the one with the ten talents. 29For to all those who have, more will be given, and they will have an abundance; but from those who have nothing, even what they have will be taken away. 30As for this worthless slave, throw him into the outer darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’

Can you call "unbelievers" slaves? No, obviously the slaves here were all "believers" because they were all given talents and each one had to give an account of what was given to them by the Master. They were not judged according to the "sincerity" of their beliefs (whether falsely believed or not) but they were judged according to THEIR WORKS, what they have DONE with their talents.

Using Abel/Cain and Isaac/Ishmael had nothing to do with the topic. The point is DOES YOUR FAITH IN CHRIST bring forth FRUITS of righteousness (good works) or of wickedness (evil works or no works at all due to lazyness)?

To see the other side of the story, Cain and Ishmael were fools, they produced bad fruits. Although they were children of God, they failed because they thought they are already saved so no matter what they do they are already saved (once saved always saved). That is the point, blue... we cannot mess around with our free gift of SALVATION.

That is why when Jesus was asked how can one be saved, He answered: "Do God's commandments". We cannot run away from works, it will be part of our SALVATION. It is not that easy, the bible tells us many things:

For it is time for judgement to begin with the household of God; and if it begins with us first, what will be the outcome for those who do not obey the gospel of God? And if it is with difficulty that the righteous is saved, what will become of the godless man and the sinner? 1 Peter 4:17-18

A man is justified by works, and not by faith alone. James 2:22 Faith is perfected by the RESULT OF THE WORKS.

I can still go on and give many scriptures supporting the importance of works. Jesus Himself said He will spit out from His mouth the evil-doing believers (believers of Christ "once saved always saved"):

Depart from Me, you doers of wickedness.

I will not be suprised to see many "OSAS" christians cast out into the outer darkness while "WOYS" christians entering the kingdom of heaven.

On the other hand, it is totally wrong to presume that I am saved due to my own works. That is another extreme!

God bless you, my friend.

[charlesj]

Whether blueheron believes it or not, my Lord Jesus confirmed with His words that all believers (without exception) will be judged by their works. So this breaks the "once saved always saved" apart.

14“For it is as if a man, going on a journey, summoned his slaves and entrusted his property to them; 15to one he gave five talents, to another two, to another one, to each according to his ability. Then he went away. 16The one who had received the five talents went off at once and traded with them, and made five more talents. 17In the same way, the one who had the two talents made two more talents. 18But the one who had received the one talent went off and dug a hole in the ground and hid his master’s money. 19After a long time the master of those slaves came and settled accounts with them. 20Then the one who had received the five talents came forward, bringing five more talents, saying, ‘Master, you handed over to me five talents; see, I have made five more talents.’ 21His master said to him, ‘Well done, good and trustworthy slave; you have been trustworthy in a few things, I will put you in charge of many things; enter into the joy of your master.’ 22And the one with the two talents also came forward, saying, ‘Master, you handed over to me two talents; see, I have made two more talents.’ 23His master said to him, ‘Well done, good and trustworthy slave; you have been trustworthy in a few things, I will put you in charge of many things; enter into the joy of your master.’ 24Then the one who had received the one talent also came forward, saying, ‘Master, I knew that you were a harsh man, reaping where you did not sow, and gathering where you did not scatter seed; 25so I was afraid, and I went and hid your talent in the ground. Here you have what is yours.’ 26But his master replied, ‘You wicked and lazy slave! You knew, did you, that I reap where I did not sow, and gather where I did not scatter? 27Then you ought to have invested my money with the bankers, and on my return I would have received what was my own with interest. 28So take the talent from him, and give it to the one with the ten talents. 29For to all those who have, more will be given, and they will have an abundance; but from those who have nothing, even what they have will be taken away. 30As for this worthless slave, throw him into the outer darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’

Can you call "unbelievers" slaves? No, obviously the slaves here were all "believers" because they were all given talents and each one had to give an account of what was given to them by the Master. They were not judged according to the "sincerity" of their beliefs (whether falsely believed or not) but they were judged according to THEIR WORKS, what they have DONE with their talents.

Using Abel/Cain and Isaac/Ishmael had nothing to do with the topic. The point is DOES YOUR FAITH IN CHRIST bring forth FRUITS of righteousness (good works) or of wickedness (evil works or no works at all due to lazyness)?

To see the other side of the story, Cain and Ishmael were fools, they produced bad fruits. Although they were children of God, they failed because they thought they are already saved so no matter what they do they are already saved (once saved always saved). That is the point, blue... we cannot mess around with our free gift of SALVATION.

That is why when Jesus was asked how can one be saved, He answered: "Do God's commandments". We cannot run away from works, it will be part of our SALVATION. It is not that easy, the bible tells us many things:

For it is time for judgement to begin with the household of God; and if it begins with us first, what will be the outcome for those who do not obey the gospel of God? And if it is with difficulty that the righteous is saved, what will become of the godless man and the sinner? 1 Peter 4:17-18

A man is justified by works, and not by faith alone. James 2:22 Faith is perfected by the RESULT OF THE WORKS.

I can still go on and give many scriptures supporting the importance of works. Jesus Himself said He will spit out from His mouth the evil-doing believers (believers of Christ "once saved always saved"):

Depart from Me, you doers of wickedness.

I will not be suprised to see many "OSAS" christians cast out into the outer darkness while "WOYS" christians entering the kingdom of heaven.

On the other hand, it is totally wrong to presume that I am saved due to my own works. That is another extreme!

God bless you, my friend.


Some good ideas, amen!

I don't know if you know James Dobson or not, but he has spoken about experiments where you have a group of students and all have been given the wrong answer to a test question except one (This student doesn't know they are going to answer wrong). The one with the correct answer finally answers with his peers the wrong answer. I think you can see this on forums. Without being a Bearan they answer what they’ve heard to be truth. Without checking it out, because the majority might believe it, they answer with the majority.

Anyway, you have written a very good post. May the Lord be with you. (and with all of us).

Your servant in Messiah, Jesus,
Charlesj

[blueheron32]

Yes germanjoy....all believers will be judged by their works...not only all believers, but all men.. but the question is where will this judgment take place? will it be at the last day? Will he be judged with the ungodly? Will he stand before God and be judged on the basis of everywork he has ever done? If so, who can be saved? Who can stand before God and be found guiltless?, for all have sinned and come short of the glory of God..

No germanjoy, OSAS is not destroyed by your objection, it is established...When Christ went to the cross, did he go there for his own sins? No of course not. What does it mean when the bible says...I am crucified with Christ? What can it mean but that when Christ hung on the cross being judged by his Father, but that I and all those who were chosen in Him from before the foundation of the world, also hung there in Him. Being Judged in Him. Being punished in Him. Being made acceptable to the Father in Him.

Our remaining in him is not based upon our performance germanjoy...it is based on his performance of all that God required. Our security is not based on my ability to remain faithful, but on the eternal and infinite faithfulness of Christ. There is nothing that can separate me from his love, nothing. His work made that a certain reality.

Rom 8:28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.
Rom 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
Rom 8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
Rom 8:31 What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?
Rom 8:32 He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?
Rom 8:33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.
Rom 8:34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.
Rom 8:35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?
Rom 8:36 As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.
Rom 8:37 Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.
Rom 8:38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
Rom 8:39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

germanjoy....I have never denied that salvation does not produce good works. That is abundantly clear from passages you have mentioned and others...

Eph 2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)
Eph 2:6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
Eph 2:7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.
Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

We were crucified with him...we were raised up with him, we were seated in heavenly places with him.. and now yes...we do work out our own salvation with fear and trembling...but german joy....why do you never quote the next verse...

Phi 2:12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
Phi 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

Who is the one working, willing, and doing, germanjoy...? It is God who is doing it all in us according to his good pleasure... Do we not also work? Of course we do, because in saving us, God has given us an earnest and continuing desire to do his will. But that is a result of his work in us, and not the basis of our position.

And yes germanjoy...sadly there will be many who hold the OSAS doctrine who will surely be surprised to hear..."depart from me ye that work iniquity, I never knew you." Just as there will be those who will WOYS, who will hear those same words. Holding the right doctrine does not make a person saved. Salvation is a result of being held by the right saviour, Jesus Christ the Righteous.

your friend...
blueheron32

[Bikn4God]

I think you confuse "judgement by works" with salvation.

Scripture says, "There is no condemnation ( judgment ) to those in Christ Jesus." Christ paid for our sins on the cross. Thus the gift of salvation. If we were to be "judged" on our works, we would fail miserably. And if that were so, that we were to be judged based upon our works, then what was the point of Christ going to the cross? Where is the redemption?

The "judgement " by works kind of works like this. A believer dies, and he will be rewarded in Heaven based upon the works we did for the Kingdom of God. It's got nothing to do with going to Heaven or Hell. We're already saved. So salvation is assured, through the death and resurrection of Christ. But we will be judged according to our works as BELIEVERS, and our rewards will be based upon that.

It makes me wonder why so many people WANT to be condemned. God has given us a free gift of eternal life. Why not ask for it, accept it, be thankful for it? Why do people want to WORK for their salvation when the work has already been done? If we had to be judged ( for our salvation ) according to our works, then what was the point of Christ's death on the cross? He didn't have anything better to do that day, or what?

If Christ did not die on the cross for the redemption of my sins, I'm truly doomed. What rewards I receive in Heaven will be determined by what I do here for the Kingdom of God.

As for unbelievers... well....their fate is very simple. Their names will be searched for in the Book of Life. When it is not found, their fate is sealed. It's very simple.

I thank you...

CJ
SFFS

[SirLaffalot aka CarltonRoss]

Salvation is adoption-- God adopts us to be His children in Christ our Lord. As adopted children, we enjoy the blessings and benefits, as long as we, the good and obedient children behave properly as such-- to fail to meet the expectations of our Father does not cancel our adoption (salvation) but we do, by our own volition, forfeit the blessings of that adoption.

Yes, we may always be adopted, that will never be lost, but through sin and disobedience, we can surely forfeit the benefits that would be ours by our faithfulness and devotion.

[Javert03]

Can you call "unbelievers" slaves? No, obviously the slaves here were all "believers" because they were all given talents and each one had to give an account of what was given to them by the Master.


God created everyone. (Gen. 1) He made believer and unbeliever alike in His image. (Gen. 1:26) He put us all here to bring Him glory.(1 Chron. 16:24) We will all have to give an account of our actions to God. (Rom. 14:11-12)

Once again, Christ is simply making a comparison between the saved and the unsaved. There is no reason to assume that this passage refers to Christians losing their salvation.

They were not judged according to the "sincerity" of their beliefs (whether falsely believed or not) but they were judged according to THEIR WORKS, what they have DONE with their talents.

First, this statement is a direct contradiction of the Word of God. (Eph. 2:8) Secondly, it's important to consider the whole context of this parable. Notice what the Lord says at the end:

Matthew 25:29-30
29 For to everyone who has, more will be given, and he will have abundance; but from him who does not have, even what he has will be taken away. 30 And cast the unprofitable servant into the outer darkness. There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

We “have” only what Christ has given us. This is what we will be judged on. This is what the “unprofitable servant” was judged on. He didn't have, and even what he had was taken away.


For it is time for judgement to begin with the household of God; and if it begins with us first, what will be the outcome for those who do not obey the gospel of God? And if it is with difficulty that the righteous is saved, what will become of the godless man and the sinner? 1 Peter 4:17-18

Christ died to save us. What he did was difficult. Those who do not obey the gospel of God are not saved by the blood of the Lamb. If they were, we would know “by their fruits”.

A man is justified by works, and not by faith alone. James 2:22 Faith is perfected by the RESULT OF THE WORKS.

This brings up an interesting point. There is only one Greek word used for “justified” in the New Testament. Now please correct me if I'm wrong. I'm certainly no scholar. This word seems to have two distinct meanings. The first is justified in the eyes of God. In this sense we are justified by the blood of Jesus. This is a legal act, whereby God condemned Christ in our place.

Acts 13:38-39
38 Therefore let it be known to you, brethren, that through this Man is preached to you the forgiveness of sins; 39 and by Him everyone who believes is justified from all things from which you could not be justified by the law of Moses.

The second meaning seems to be justified before men. In this sense we are justified by our words, and we justify God. I believe the following passages present this clearly:

Matthew 11:19
19 The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, ‘Look, a glutton and a winebibber, a friend of tax collectors and sinners!’ But wisdom is justified by her children.

Obviously Jesus isn't talking about salvation. This is similar to saying “You shall know them by their fruits.”

Luke 7:29
And when all the people heard Him, even the tax collectors justified God, having been baptized with the baptism of John.

Justified God?! Now that definitely isn't salvation.

Romans 3:4
Certainly not! Indeed, let God be true but every man a liar. As it is written: “That You may be justified in Your words, And may overcome when You are judged.”

Once again, God isn't in need of salvation. Now read James again in that light:

James 2:24
You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.

I can still go on and give many scriptures supporting the importance of works.

In this discussion, works are important because they “justify” us before men, and by our works we “justify” God. Also, to point out more scriptures would be rather pointless, seeing as all the scriptures put forth in support of Perseverance of the Saints still stand. You cannot simply accept parts of God's word and not others. If you have legitimate arguments showing how all the passages brought up so far do not support Perseverance of the Saints, I would be interested in seeing them.

Jesus Himself said He will spit out from His mouth the evil-doing believers (believers of Christ "once saved always saved"):

Depart from Me, you doers of wickedness.

Again, context is important. Jesus doesn't say these are believers in "once saved, always saved". He says those he casts out were never saved to begin with!

Matthew 7:23
And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’


...all believers (without exception) will be judged by their works...
On the other hand, it is totally wrong to presume that I am saved due to my own works.


Huh?

I love what C.S. Lewis writes in the Chronicles of Narnia: "Once a king or queen in Narnia, always a king or queen."

[germanJoy]

Can you call "unbelievers" slaves? No, obviously the slaves here were all "believers" because they were all given talents and each one had to give an account of what was given to them by the Master.

God created everyone. (Gen. 1) He made believer and unbeliever alike in His image. (Gen. 1:26) He put us all here to bring Him glory.(1 Chron. 16:24) We will all have to give an account of our actions to God. (Rom. 14:11-12)
Once again, Christ is simply making a comparison between the saved and the unsaved. There is no reason to assume that this passage refers to Christians losing their salvation.
If you just open your eyes to the true meaning of the parables of Christ then you will get to understand that the "slaves" in this parable are "all believers". The unbelievers are never judged by their works because they are already judged by their unbelief (not believing on Jesus Christ). So the unbelievers are disqualified to be considered in the judgement of works since they are already judged (even on earth the judgement had already been pronounced by the Word of Christ for them). Therefore only the believers will face the judgement of works at the Judgement Time (the end) as mentioned in this parable.

First, this statement is a direct contradiction of the Word of God. (Eph. 2:8) Secondly, it's important to consider the whole context of this parable. Notice what the Lord says at the end:
Matthew 25:29-30

Eph. 2:8 never contradicts Matt. 25:29-30 because all the slaves/believers in Matt. 25 were all justified by faith. The works are then judged in the end. Thus, the separation of the sheeps and the goats; the works will show forth who truly are the saved and the unsaved believers.

We “have” only what Christ has given us. This is what we will be judged on. This is what the “unprofitable servant” was judged on. He didn't have, and even what he had was taken away.

The "unprofitable servant" received one (1) talent (so your statement he didn't have is wrong). Yes, Christ has given us talents and we will be ALL held accountable for these at the judgement seat of Christ.

Christ died to save us. What he did was difficult. Those who do not obey the gospel of God are not saved by the blood of the Lamb. If they were, we would know “by their fruits”.

We can "know" by their fruits but the JUDGEMENT is done by Christ.

The second meaning seems to be justified before men. In this sense we are justified by our words, and we justify God. I believe the following passages present this clearly: Obviously Jesus isn't talking about salvation. This is similar to saying “You shall know them by their fruits.”
Matthew 11:19
The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say,'Behold, a gluttonous man and a drunkard, a friend of tax collectors and sinners!' But wisdom is justified by her children.

Matt. 11:19 is neither talking about salvation nor fruits. Jesus was referring to the foolishness of His generation. John came neither drinking and eating and they say he has demons. Jesus came drinking and eating and they say He is a friend of sinners. Therefore, the "foolishness" (wisdom) of this generation is justified by its children.

Justified God?! Now that definitely isn't salvation.
Luke 7:29
When all the people and the tax collectors heard this, they declared God to be just, having been baptized with John's baptism. (
Something is wrong with your translation. The more rational and correct translation is the people declared God to be just. No one can justify God, He is the God of justice.

James 2:24
In this discussion, works are important because they “justify” us before men, and by our works we “justify” God. Also, to point out more scriptures would be rather pointless, seeing as all the scriptures put forth in support of Perseverance of the Saints still stand. You cannot simply accept parts of God's word and not others. If you have legitimate arguments showing how all the passages brought up so far do not support Perseverance of the Saints, I would be interested in seeing them.

I never claimed that the saints are not assured of their salvation. Of course, there is a perseverance of the WISE SAINTS. I only want to say that there are wise saints (the bible calls it WOYS) and foolish saints. (the religion calls it OSAS). Both are saved by grace but not both are working out their salvation with fear and trembliing. And the judgement is done ALONE by Christ in the end.

Again, context is important. Jesus doesn't say these are believers in "once saved, always saved". He says those he casts out were never saved to begin with!
Matthew 7:22-23 Many will say to Me on that day, "Lord, Lord,` did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast ou demons, and in Your name perform many miracles? And then I will declare to them: I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness."

If you see the importance of context, why do you then take this out of context? Are unbelievers (e.g., muslims) prophesying, casting out demons, and perfoming miracles in the name of Jesus? No!!!! Who are doing these? the christians, the saints, the believers. Why will Christ cast them out? because they are doers of iniquity. Again, judgement of works... can you run away from that???? Go further to the next verses and it will tell you more of what I have been talking about all the time:

verse 24-26 And everyone who hears these words of Mine, and acts upon them, will be like a wise man who built his house upon the rock.... And everyone who hears these words of Mine, and does not act upon them, will be like a foolish man who built his house upon the sand.

Acts???? whew, does it not sound like "WORKS"???? Are you building your faith in Christ WITH WORKS or WITHOUT WORKS???? If without works, learn from the parable of Christ and open your heart and your eyes that you may understand and not end up with the unbelievers.

Our works are not additions to our faith but are CONFIRMATION of our faith. Our faith does not stand alone, it is perfected as a result of our works.

I love what C.S. Lewis writes in the Chronicles of Narnia: "Once a king or queen in Narnia, always a king or queen.

I love the words of Christ: Therefore you are to be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect. Matthew 5:48

[germanJoy]

"Once saved is always saved" is a peaching MISUSED by the preachers/pastors to fill the empty seats of their congregations. They know exactly once they preached "WOYS", they will be losing many members. "WOYS" teaching is a double edged sword, it is biblical and it pierces the hearts of men and bring them to REPENTANCE. "OSAS" had deceived many who had taken their salvation for granted. OSAS was responsible for many believers who continually lived in sin because they were taught they are eternally saved no matter what happens (our works are irrelevant) because they have believed. WHAT A FOOLISH TEACHING!

We need to balance this and preach both!!!

[OneJoe]

"Once saved is always saved" is a peaching MISUSED by the preachers/pastors to fill the empty seats of their congregations. They know exactly once they preached "WOYS", they will be losing many members. "WOYS" teaching is a double edged sword, it is biblical and it pierces the hearts of men and bring them to REPENTANCE. "OSAS" had deceived many who had taken their salvation for granted. OSAS was responsible for many believers who continually lived in sin because they were taught they are eternally saved no matter what happens (our works are irrelevant) because they have believed. WHAT A FOOLISH TEACHING!

We need to balance this and preach both!!!
Once saved is always saved is not misused, its just viewed wrong. Some just "think" their saved and can go sin as many times as they want. Whats wrong is to teach that their saved because of something they did. Then they "think" their saved and can go do whatever they want, but people fail to teach that salvation is not of us, but rather of God and a true child of God does not do that kind of thing. Some fail to teach that if someone does such a thing, they weren't saved in the first place. Once saved always saved is absolutely true, but it does not apply to just anyone, but only to God's elect, those chosen before the foundation of the world, those who will remain faithful until the end.

[germanJoy]

Once saved is always saved is not misused, its just viewed wrong. Some just "think" their saved and can go sin as many times as they want. Whats wrong is to teach that their saved because of something they did. Then they "think" their saved and can go do whatever they want, but people fail to teach that salvation is not of us, but rather of God and a true child of God does not do that kind of thing. Some fail to teach that if someone does such a thing, they weren't saved in the first place. Once saved always saved is absolutely true, but it does not apply to just anyone, but only to God's elect, those chosen before the foundation of the world, those who will remain faithful until the end.
Amen Onejoe, that is what I have been trying to point out as well. To those who persevere, they are eternally saved. To those who endureth not, they are condemned. Thus, OSAS and WOYS are inseparable, they compliment each other and not contradicting as it appears to be. What a mighty God we serve!!

What we always need to keep in mind is to correct anyone who claims "you are not saved because you are not baptised in water or you do not speak in tonques, etc. (adding works to salvation)" That would be unscriptural. On the other hand, one may say "you are not saved if you continually live in sin" (nullifying salvation by bearing bad fruits). That is scriptural. :)

[SemperReformanda]

CharlesJ said:
"How does your point square with Heb. 6:4-8
For as touching those who were once enlightened and tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Spirit, and tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the age to come, and then fell away, it is impossible to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame. For the land which hath drunk the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them for whose sake it is also tilled, receiveth blessing from God: but if it beareth thorns and thistles, it is rejected and nigh unto a curse; whose end is to be burned.

Explain how that these were not regenerated and yet not eternally saved ! you can only do it (Honestly) if you drop Calvin & accept the truly inspired men, the apostles!"

You forgot to quote the very next verse :)

Heb. 6:9
"But, beloved, we are convinced of better things concerning you, and things that accompany salvation, though we are speaking in this way."

though he speaks a severe warning he remains sure, "convinced, pursuaded, sure, confident" that things accompaning salvation are for them and not damnation. Why? vs 10 "For God is not unrighteous..." intresting? See the necessary implication? IF these beleivers fell away God would be unrighteous and be forgetting the good fruits of before. (remembering of course that the said good works are the ones that He prepares for them to walk in according to ephesians). True good works are only able to be walked in by those who are regenerate, and God would be unrighteous (according to the author of Hebrews) to forget the fruits of the regenerate and allow them to fall away into damnation. His confidence in their preserverence isnt because he knows them, or cannot imagine such wonderful people losing faith. His confidence in their preserverence is resting on the fact that God is righteous.


Note how neatly the 4-8 passage is nestled between the truth found in vs 9-10 and the one we find in vs 1-3 where we see that we are required to go on to perfection. And will we do so? vs 3. Only if God permits. :) Its God who determines if we go on and preservere or not.

true!! Anyone who was regenerate and permanately rejected christ could not be renewed again to repentance, but we remain confident that the regenerate wont. Because we have the guarantees you quoted in john etc. We have the knowledge that it is Christ himself who works in us both to will and to do His good pleasure. We have a seal of the holy Spirit which is a guarentee of salvation. etc etc.

We see in scripture texts showing positively that 1. we must preservere or we will be lost; and 2. that we have a guarantee of being saved if we trust in Christ. The first set cannot be used to refute the second (as held by arminist) nor can the second set refute the first (as held by cheap grace advocates) Preserverance of the saints is the only interpretation that addresses both the sets of texts requiring preserverance for salvation, and the ones guaranteeing salvation to all who believe.

It is also the only interpretation that is consistent with the major theme found through out scripture, OT and New, over and over again, that God requires of us what we cannot do, and is glorified by fulfilling that requirement Himself.

[SemperReformanda]

i apologize for saying arminist instead of arminians :) why is the edit option no longer available tome?

[Ken]

i apologize for saying arminist instead of arminians :) why is the edit option no longer available tome?
We have it set for five minutes, so no one can edit the post after someone has responded to the original. We’ve had that happen in the past :-)

[Bikn4God]

If a person denies Christ.... abandons Him... recants.....then I believe he can be no longer saved.

To say that "through sin and disobedience" , no. I know not one single Christian on this planet who is sinless. We do not cease to be in a sinful condition just because we're saved. We're redeemed, yes. Our final destination has been determined, yes. But our spiritual condition has not changed. We do not cease to be sinner. We're just redeemed ones.

My gosh... I pray I never think I'm so pious that I'm sinless!

CJ
SFFS

[SemperReformanda]

"Simple Questions

1. Can a christian be Severed Christ & Fall from Grace? you say No! But Paul Said Yes

Ga 5:1 For freedom did Christ set us free: stand fast therefore, and be not entangled again in a yoke of bondage.
Ga 5:2 Behold, I Paul say unto you, that, if ye receive circumcision, Christ will profit you nothing.
Ga 5:3 Yea, I testify again to every man that receiveth circumcision, that he is a debtor to do the whole law.
Ga 5:4 Ye are severed from Christ, ye would be justified by the law; ye are fallen away from grace.
Ga 5:5 For we through the Spirit by faith wait for the hope of righteousness.
(ASV)
one canot be severed from somthing that he is not connected to or fall fromsomething that he does not possess"

again.. IF the believers fell they would be severed.. but God will not allow it. That would show Him to be unrighteous. You might argue that they ARE fallen from grace. However that cannot mean cut off from salvation, b/c as you pointed out in Hebrews 6. SUch an individual cannot be brought back to repentance :) If (as the whole of the epistle to the galatians shows) that these individuals are infact still in hope of salvation, they cannot be cut off from salvation.

"2. Can A Christain love the world so as to perish? you say No! John Said yes!

1Jo 2:15 Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.
1Jo 2:16 For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh and the lust of the eyes and the vain glory of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.
1Jo 2:17 And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever.
(ASV)

why would he warn Christians about loving the world if they could not? And if they can, then they can perish with the world too!"

again... "Work out your salvation with fear and trembling for it is God who works in you to WILL and to DO his good pleasure." One could ultimately choose the world over Christ. (note the Scriptures allow for seasons of darkness but ultimately restoration and preserverance) But the elect will not because God restrains us from it.

"3. Can A christian be led away by false teachers so that his love Grows Cold and loose salvation? you say No! Jesus said yes!

Mt 24:11 And many false prophets shall arise, and shall lead many astray.
Mt 24:12 And because iniquity shall be multiplied, the love of the many shall wax cold.
Mt 24:13 But he that endureth to the end, the same shall be saved.
(ASV)"

1. "many" shall be led astray. nothing in the text implies that those led astray are believers. 2. As onejoe pointed out already, to draw this conclusion requires one to ignore later on in the chapter where he teaches that "IF POSSIBLE they would decieve even the elect". THe implication being that the reason the elect arent decieved is because its not possible.

"In all of the NT there are more warnings about the possibility of leaving Christ then any other topic. Why so many warnings if Apostacy is impossible ?"

Why was Isreal told to obey the law if it was impossible? Why is man required to be righteous when it is impossible? Why was Joshua, and Gideon, and Moses, and the list goes on :) of charged to do things that are impossible. Responsability to do something does not imply ability to do so. Nor does responsability to not do somethin imply that God will allow it to come to pass. On our own of course we would fall i