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charlesj
02-01-2006, 11:35 PM
Within the terms of the New Covenant (New Testament) you will learn that God ordained that the local church should be overseen in its work and worship by men qualified for this special task. These men are known as “elders or bishops.” (Same Greek word translated as elder and sometimes as bishop.) Their special assignments are due to the Lord’s directives for the church as revealed in the New Covenant.

Elders are NOT the authority, but rather have the authority to lead the congregation in decisions to carry out the commands of Christ.

There are three Greek words in the Greek New Testament which are translated by six English words. These words are as follows:

A. Presbuteros. Translated “presbyter,” or “elder.” This word actually means one “advanced in life, an elder, a senior.” This shows the dignity of the office.
B. Episkopos. (epi = over; skopos = scope, vision. we get our English word “scope” for a rifle). Translated “bishop” or “overseer.” The word is defined as “an overseer, a man charged with the duty of seeing that things by others are done rightly.
c. Poimen. Translated “pastor,” or “shepherd.” Though the word is found some eighteen times in the Greek New Testament, it is translated “pastor” only one time in the English Testament. (Eph 4:11).

Presbuteros translated “elder” carries idea of “age”…spice.
Episkopos (overseer) carries idea of “authority of office.
Poimen (shepherd or pastor) idea of the “work of office.

Though the terms “bishop” and “pastor” convey to many minds distinct office or even different levels of authority among various religious groups, they are, nonetheless, SPEAKING OF THE SAME OFFICE, OR GROUP OF MEN.

These three Greek words are used in Acts 20: 17-38

Acts 20:17-28 17 And from Miletus he sent to Ephesus, and called to him the elders (presbuteros) of the church. 18 And when they were come to him, he said unto them, Ye yourselves know, from the first day that I set foot in Asia, after what manner I was with you all the time, 19 serving the Lord with all lowliness of mind, and with tears, and with trials which befell me by the plots of the Jews; 20 how I shrank not from declaring unto you anything that was profitable, and teaching you publicly, and from house to house, 21 testifying both to Jews and to Greeks repentance toward God, and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ. 22 And now, behold, I go bound in the spirit unto Jerusalem, not knowing the things that shall befall me there: 23 save that the Holy Spirit testifieth unto me in every city, saying that bonds and afflictions abide me. 24 But I hold not my life of any account as dear unto myself, so that I may accomplish my course, and the ministry which I received from the Lord Jesus, to testify the gospel of the grace of God. 25 And now, behold, I know that ye all, among whom I went about preaching the kingdom, shall see my face no more. 26 Wherefore I testify unto you this day, that I am pure from the blood of all men. 27 For I shrank not from declaring unto you the whole counsel of God. 28 Take heed unto yourselves, and to all the flock, in which the Holy Spirit hath made you bishops,(episkopos) to feed(poimaino) the church of the Lord which he purchased with his own blood..

In verse 17 Paul calls to him the “elders of the church” at Ephesus. The same verse says that they met him at Miletus. Beginning at verse 18, the apostle addresses the elders and his address is recorded through verse 35. In verse 28 Paul is yet speaking to these elders and charges them: “take heed unto yourselves and to all the flock in which the holy Spirit hath made you bishops.” Notice carefully the apostle addresses the ELDERS and says that the Holy Spirit made them BISHOPS. (some translations use "overseer" instead of bishop). Thus elders and bishops are the same thing. An elder (presbuteros) is the same as a bishop (episkopos).
Further, to the elders, the bishops, Paul continues to say that they are to “feed” the church. This work “feed” is the Greek Word “poimino.” It is the verb form of the word “POIMEN” which is translated “pastor” or “shepherd.” The verb is translated “pastor” or “shepherd,” and here is translated “feed.”

Therefore, shepherds shepherd flocks, and pastor’s pastor sheep. The noun and the verb can be translated in the same way. You might say, feeders feed.
But the point is that to “feed” is actually to “pastor,” or to “shepherd,” and this is what the apostle tells the elders or the bishops to do. The elders (presbuteros) or bishops (episkopos) are to feed (poimaino) the church. All three Greek words are used in speaking of the same group of men. They are NOT to be distinguished from each other.
The elders, older qualified men, are bishops who “oversee” the church, or who pastor the flock of God as spiritual shepherds. The word translated “feed” does not mean to teach anymore than it means to protect or to go to bring those who stray.


Again, the three Greek words are used in 1 Peter 5:1,2:


1 Peter 5:1-2 ASV 1 Peter 5:1 The elders (presbuteros) among you I exhort, who am a fellow-elder, and a witness of the sufferings of Christ, who am also a partaker of the glory that shall be revealed: 2 Tend (poimanino) the flock of God which is among you, exercising the oversight (episkopos), not of constraint, but willingly, according to the will of God; nor yet for filthy lucre, but of a ready mind;

Here you have a second witness, another apostle, Peter, who agrees with Paul that elders, bishops, pastors, are the same!!


Titus 1:5-7 5 For this cause left I thee in Crete, that thou shouldest set in order the things that were wanting, and appoint elders (presbuteros) in every city, as I gave thee charge; 6 if any man is blameless, the husband of one wife, having children that believe, who are not accused of riot or unruly. 7 For the bishop (episkopos) must be blameless, as God's steward; not self-willed, not soon angry, no brawler, no striker, not greedy of filthy lucre;

There are only two of the words used in this passage (Titus 1:5-7). Paul is setting forth the qualifications of eldrs. He reasons in verses 5,6 that elders (presbuteros) must be blameless. Then in verse 7 states, “for the bishop”(episkopos) must be blameless. It becomes obvious that qualified elders become the overseers or bishops of the church.


PREACHERS ARE NEVER CALLED “PASTORS”!!

I wrote this earlier, but I thought it worth while to repeat.

Ephesians 4:11 11 And he gave some to be apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists;(euaggelistas) and some, pastors (poimen) and teachers;

In Eph 4:11, the preacher (or minister) is called an evangelist (Greek = euaggelistas). If you look at the Greek word, you will see our English has been taken from it.
A "pastor" is an elder. Elders can be preachers, but not all preachers can be
elders. Elders have qualifications laid down in the New Coveanant writings that a preacher may NOT qualifiy, but ALL elders qualify to preach.
The Greek word for pastor is poimen (noun). The verb form of this Greek word poimen is poimaino and means "to shepherd."

1 Peter 5:1-3 KJV 1 Peter 5:1 The elders which are among you I exhort, who am also an elder, and a witness of the sufferings of Christ, and also a partaker of the glory that shall be revealed: 2 Feed (poimaino) the flock of God which is among you, taking the oversight (episkopus) thereof, not by constraint, but willingly; not for filthy lucre, but of a ready mind; {which...: or, as much as in you is} 3 Neither as being lords over God's heritage, but being ensamples to the flock.

Elders are to "feed" (poimaino) the flock of God (local church) for they are
"overseers"(episkopus = epi means 'over' while skopus is the word from which we get out "scope"... the scope on a rifle.) Elders oversee the local group of belivers.


your servant in the Lord Jesus,
Charlesj

not4gotton
02-02-2006, 12:51 AM
Charlesj, I am amazed at your knowledge and how you explain it. I have completely understood All that you have written, and I completely agree.
You have explained all the things that I feel and know is right, but I don't have the ability to explain it the way you do. I thank the Lord for sending you to this chat board.
Could you please give us your understanding on the Godhead, trinity says three Gods, but I see One God revealed as the Father, In the Son, and also the Holy Ghost. It would help me a lot.
Thank You

germanJoy
02-02-2006, 03:07 AM
Are we really led to be over-concerned of titles? Did Jesus Himself not direct us to be the least among our brethren to be called great in His kingdom? What difference really does it make whether one is called an "elder" or a "pastor"? What are they? Nobody for everyone is seen and treated equally as a bondservant of the Lord Jesus Christ, that includes the ones cleaning the toilets plus the home moms. :-)

Charlesj, if you say that a "pastor" is an elder and elders can be preachers, why is this elder forbidden to be called a "pastor"? It is absolutely normal that elders who pastor a flock are automatically called by their flock "pastor".

A "pastor" is an elder. Elders can be preachers, but not all preachers can be
elders. Elders have qualifications laid down in the New Coveanant writings that a preacher may NOT qualifiy, but ALL elders qualify to preach.

Did Jesus ever say do not call anyone "pastor"? Did He not make specific instructions as to which titles we are not allowed to be called, namely: "father, leader, and teacher". Only these 3 titles were forbidden by the Lord. And He gave His reasons. Can we not just stick to Christ's directives and refrain ourselves from criticizing fellow brethren who are called according to their job functions?

I think your main concern is the false unbiblical structure followed by the church (Pastor-led structure) against the Elder-led structure. A Pastor-led church is one ran and managed by one man, the Pastor and anyone (inlcuding the elders (founders), overseers, evangelist) who goes against him is seen as rebelling against God. An Elder-led church is one ran and managed by the pastor or pastors, elders (founders), overseers, evangelist and all problems are solved and decisions are made unanimously by all of them.

charlesj
02-02-2006, 08:14 AM
Are we really led to be over-concerned of titles? Did Jesus Himself not direct us to be the least among our brethren to be called great in His kingdom? What difference really does it make whether one is called an "elder" or a "pastor"? What are they? Nobody for everyone is seen and treated equally as a bondservant of the Lord Jesus Christ, that includes the ones cleaning the toilets plus the home moms. :-)

Charlesj, if you say that a "pastor" is an elder and elders can be preachers, why is this elder forbidden to be called a "pastor"? It is absolutely normal that elders who pastor a flock are automatically called by their flock "pastor".



Did Jesus ever say do not call anyone "pastor"? Did He not make specific instructions as to which titles we are not allowed to be called, namely: "father, leader, and teacher". Only these 3 titles were forbidden by the Lord. And He gave His reasons. Can we not just stick to Christ's directives and refrain ourselves from criticizing fellow brethren who are called according to their job functions?

I think your main concern is the false unbiblical structure followed by the church (Pastor-led structure) against the Elder-led structure. A Pastor-led church is one ran and managed by one man, the Pastor and anyone (inlcuding the elders (founders), overseers, evangelist) who goes against him is seen as rebelling against God. An Elder-led church is one ran and managed by the pastor or pastors, elders (founders), overseers, evangelist and all problems are solved and decisions are made unanimously by all of them.

Hello germanjoy:
I think you may be mis reading what I've said. The bottom line is that denominational people use the term "pastor" wrong. They call their preacher by the name given to elders (pastor).
God is the one who has choosen these titles, not me. You will be able to identify His church by the way it's set up from all the false ones. There was a falling away from the church structure and doctrines many many years ago. We need to go back to those teachings our our Lord.
Remember, the New Covenant was sealed with the Blood of God's Son, Jesus. Since that sealing of His Blood, we can't add or take anything away. It is in His structure, it was His way He set up the church government. It is not charlesj that has set up the structure of the church.

The Lord's church is ran by elders (two or more). These men are sometimes referred to as pastors (plural). In the church you will have elders, deacons and a minister (not a pastor/elder).
Got it?

germanJoy
02-02-2006, 09:48 AM
charlesj, You are correct, I am misreading your posts :-). These statements you made caused the miscomprehension on my part (quite hard to grasp) which reminded me of my psychology subject in college. :LOL

Preachers are not “Pastors.”

A "pastor" is an elder. Elders can be preachers, but not all preachers can be
elders.

Unclearness occurs if basing on the above one thinks this way:

"A pastor is an Elder. An Elder can be a preacher. Not all preachers are elders. Not all preachers are pastors." OK, understood. But normally all preachers in the churches are all elders. That concludes that all preachers are pastors since they are also the elders. So what is really the point?

The reformed churches have already seen the wrong structure and have already changed the system. Here in Germany, all churches ("redeemed ones") are ran by elders (the preachers are all elders but not all elders are preachers). Well, these preachers are not addressed as pastors but they are addressed plainly with their first names or last names. In the Philippines, my home church are also ran by elders (the preachers are all elders but not all elders are preachers). However, the preachers are addressed by the people as "pastors" although these preachers would prefer to be called by their first names. :-)

I hope my clarification made a point this time.

In His Life,

germanJoy

blueheron32
02-02-2006, 06:41 PM
OK, just let me share a pet peeve of mine in the use of the word "pastor" .. I pretty much agree with charles and germanjoy on the leadership structure of the local congregation...my problem with the use of the word pastor, is when it replaces the name of the person...In other words, I dont mind when a person is referred to as, Pastor Smith, or Pastor Jones. My problem comes in when a person is spoken to and assumes the identity of, "Pastor" Such as...Good morning, Pastor. Or....I will have to check with Pastor, and get back to you..It is as if it becomes his name. This kind of use of the word, Pastor, is to me the same thing as calling a man, Father, Teacher, etc. Even though there is not a clear prohibition on the use of the word Pastor in this way, I believe the principle still applies.

Even though Paul consistently identified himself as an apostle, to establish the authority with which he spoke. He did not replace his identity with the word apostle...not did anyone else, including Peter...

2Pe 3:15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;

whether an elder, pastor, deacon, or bishop, no one should ever presume to be any thing other than a beloved brother, and fellowlabourer to those he serves. Remembering that Jesus himself came as the suffering servant, washing his disciples feet.

blueheron32

tallique
02-02-2006, 09:06 PM
Within the terms of the New Covenant (New Testament) you will learn that God ordained that the local church should be overseen in its work and worship by men qualified for this special task. These men are known as “elders or bishops.” (Same Greek word translated as elder and sometimes as bishop.) Their special assignments are due to the Lord’s directives for the church as revealed in the New Covenant.

Elders are NOT the authority, but rather have the authority to lead the congregation in decisions to carry out the commands of Christ.

There are three Greek words in the Greek New Testament which are translated by six English words. These words are as follows:

A. Presbuteros. Translated “presbyter,” or “elder.” This word actually means one “advanced in life, an elder, a senior.” This shows the dignity of the office.
B. Episkopos. (epi = over; skopos = scope, vision. we get our English word “scope” for a rifle). Translated “bishop” or “overseer.” The word is defined as “an overseer, a man charged with the duty of seeing that things by others are done rightly.
c. Poimen. Translated “pastor,” or “shepherd.” Though the word is found some eighteen times in the Greek New Testament, it is translated “pastor” only one time in the English Testament. (Eph 4:11).

Presbuteros translated “elder” carries idea of “age”…spice.
Episkopos (overseer) carries idea of “authority of office.
Poimen (shepherd or pastor) idea of the “work of office.

Though the terms “bishop” and “pastor” convey to many minds distinct office or even different levels of authority among various religious groups, they are, nonetheless, SPEAKING OF THE SAME OFFICE, OR GROUP OF MEN.

These three Greek words are used in Acts 20: 17-38

Acts 20:17-28 17 And from Miletus he sent to Ephesus, and called to him the elders (presbuteros) of the church. 18 And when they were come to him, he said unto them, Ye yourselves know, from the first day that I set foot in Asia, after what manner I was with you all the time, 19 serving the Lord with all lowliness of mind, and with tears, and with trials which befell me by the plots of the Jews; 20 how I shrank not from declaring unto you anything that was profitable, and teaching you publicly, and from house to house, 21 testifying both to Jews and to Greeks repentance toward God, and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ. 22 And now, behold, I go bound in the spirit unto Jerusalem, not knowing the things that shall befall me there: 23 save that the Holy Spirit testifieth unto me in every city, saying that bonds and afflictions abide me. 24 But I hold not my life of any account as dear unto myself, so that I may accomplish my course, and the ministry which I received from the Lord Jesus, to testify the gospel of the grace of God. 25 And now, behold, I know that ye all, among whom I went about preaching the kingdom, shall see my face no more. 26 Wherefore I testify unto you this day, that I am pure from the blood of all men. 27 For I shrank not from declaring unto you the whole counsel of God. 28 Take heed unto yourselves, and to all the flock, in which the Holy Spirit hath made you bishops,(episkopos) to feed(poimaino) the church of the Lord which he purchased with his own blood..

In verse 17 Paul calls to him the “elders of the church” at Ephesus. The same verse says that they met him at Miletus. Beginning at verse 18, the apostle addresses the elders and his address is recorded through verse 35. In verse 28 Paul is yet speaking to these elders and charges them: “take heed unto yourselves and to all the flock in which the holy Spirit hath made you bishops.” Notice carefully the apostle addresses the ELDERS and says that the Holy Spirit made them BISHOPS. (some translations use "overseer" instead of bishop). Thus elders and bishops are the same thing. An elder (presbuteros) is the same as a bishop (episkopos).
Further, to the elders, the bishops, Paul continues to say that they are to “feed” the church. This work “feed” is the Greek Word “poimino.” It is the verb form of the word “POIMEN” which is translated “pastor” or “shepherd.” The verb is translated “pastor” or “shepherd,” and here is translated “feed.”

Therefore, shepherds shepherd flocks, and pastor’s pastor sheep. The noun and the verb can be translated in the same way. You might say, feeders feed.
But the point is that to “feed” is actually to “pastor,” or to “shepherd,” and this is what the apostle tells the elders or the bishops to do. The elders (presbuteros) or bishops (episkopos) are to feed (poimaino) the church. All three Greek words are used in speaking of the same group of men. They are NOT to be distinguished from each other.
The elders, older qualified men, are bishops who “oversee” the church, or who pastor the flock of God as spiritual shepherds. The word translated “feed” does not mean to teach anymore than it means to protect or to go to bring those who stray.


Again, the three Greek words are used in 1 Peter 5:1,2:


1 Peter 5:1-2 ASV 1 Peter 5:1 The elders (presbuteros) among you I exhort, who am a fellow-elder, and a witness of the sufferings of Christ, who am also a partaker of the glory that shall be revealed: 2 Tend (poimanino) the flock of God which is among you, exercising the oversight (episkopos), not of constraint, but willingly, according to the will of God; nor yet for filthy lucre, but of a ready mind;

Here you have a second witness, another apostle, Peter, who agrees with Paul that elders, bishops, pastors, are the same!!


Titus 1:5-7 5 For this cause left I thee in Crete, that thou shouldest set in order the things that were wanting, and appoint elders (presbuteros) in every city, as I gave thee charge; 6 if any man is blameless, the husband of one wife, having children that believe, who are not accused of riot or unruly. 7 For the bishop (episkopos) must be blameless, as God's steward; not self-willed, not soon angry, no brawler, no striker, not greedy of filthy lucre;

There are only two of the words used in this passage (Titus 1:5-7). Paul is setting forth the qualifications of eldrs. He reasons in verses 5,6 that elders (presbuteros) must be blameless. Then in verse 7 states, “for the bishop”(episkopos) must be blameless. It becomes obvious that qualified elders become the overseers or bishops of the church.


PREACHERS ARE NEVER CALLED “PASTORS”!!

I wrote this earlier, but I thought it worth while to repeat.

Ephesians 4:11 11 And he gave some to be apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists;(euaggelistas) and some, pastors (poimen) and teachers;

In Eph 4:11, the preacher (or minister) is called an evangelist (Greek = euaggelistas). If you look at the Greek word, you will see our English has been taken from it.
A "pastor" is an elder. Elders can be preachers, but not all preachers can be
elders. Elders have qualifications laid down in the New Coveanant writings that a preacher may NOT qualifiy, but ALL elders qualify to preach.
The Greek word for pastor is poimen (noun). The verb form of this Greek word poimen is poimaino and means "to shepherd."

1 Peter 5:1-3 KJV 1 Peter 5:1 The elders which are among you I exhort, who am also an elder, and a witness of the sufferings of Christ, and also a partaker of the glory that shall be revealed: 2 Feed (poimaino) the flock of God which is among you, taking the oversight (episkopus) thereof, not by constraint, but willingly; not for filthy lucre, but of a ready mind; {which...: or, as much as in you is} 3 Neither as being lords over God's heritage, but being ensamples to the flock.

Elders are to "feed" (poimaino) the flock of God (local church) for they are
"overseers"(episkopus = epi means 'over' while skopus is the word from which we get out "scope"... the scope on a rifle.) Elders oversee the local group of belivers.


your servant in the Lord Jesus,
Charlesj
Pastors should be a child of God. I realised that these pastors are in the
ministry for financial security.