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charlesj
01-31-2006, 11:30 PM
Prachers are not “Pastors.”

The New Testament (New Covenant) does not refer to its evangelists or preachers as “pastors.” This is a denominational misuse of the term, just as man has made up the office of “pope.” Nor is there a difference between an evangelist and a gospel preacher, a man who preaches for a local church as Timothy did at Ephesus.
The one place where the Greek word “POIMEN” is translated “pastor’ in the English New Testament is Eph 4:11

Ephesians 4:11 11 It was he who gave some to be apostles, some to be prophets, some to be evangelists, and some to be
pastors (poimen) and teachers,

There is a very clear line of distinction between evangelists and pastors. An evangelist is a preacher and a pastor is an elder.
Even this distinction has been corrupted through denominational tradition. The denominational pastor system exists in the form of a pastor over a local church, but without elders. An attempt to justify such an arrangement in the face of clear New Testament teaching is supposedly on the grounds that no man is good enough to meet the qualifications of elders laid out in 1 Timothy 3 and Titus 1; therefore, many denominational churches do not have elders. The distinction between pastors, which are “elders”, and evangelists as clearly revealed in Eph 4:11 is glossed over by denominational tradition and usually explained int this manner: a traveling preacher is an evangelist, but a local preacher is a pastor. Of course, there is no Bible proof. Just tradition.

In the New Testament, however, preachers and evangelists were the same without distinction. In 1 Tim 1:3 and the rest of the epistle to follow, Paul left Timothy at Ephesus to do a certain work with the church which was there. That church had elders. This we know from Acts 20:17-35. There in the Ephesians 4:11 11 It was he who gave some to be apostles, some to be prophets, some to be evangelists, and some to be pastors and teachers, Ephesian church an evangelist (see 2 Tim 4:5) worked together with the pastors (elders) on a local basis. This evangelist was commanded to stay at Ephesus and work, not to go from place to pace. Also, in Tit 1:5 Paul left Titus in Crete to “set I order the things that were wanting, and appointed elders.” Titus could stay at Crete for as long as it required him to set in order what was lacking. Hence, evangelist are not to be equated with traveling preachers; nor are pastors to equated with local preachers who guide the church without elders. A pastor is one thing, and a preacher another. But the evangelist and the preacher are the same.

The New Testament (New Covenant) that God made and His Son sealed has the church government, how to worship the Lord, how to be saved, how to live your life before the Lord and many other church functions. This covenant is like an agreement between man and God. Man must meet the terms of the New Covenant and NOT changed the government of the church. In the government of the church you will find elders, deacons and a preacher, but your will NOT find a pope, a preacher that is called “pastor, reverend, father etc. etc.”
The government of the church began to change around the second century. Since that time, man has polluted the church. Look around you and you can see the pollution. The Lord still has His church and it is organized by the terms of the New Covenant. The true church of our Lord is autonomous; it has elders, deacons and a minister (preacher). This is the way it is identified from all the false ones.

The number of elders for each local church is always in the plural in the New Testament. This is another distinguishing characteristic of the church which follows the pattern of sound words.
The following passages need only to be read from the Bible for one to be convinced this was the New Testament order. There was a plurality of elders in each of the churches at Iconium, Derbe, and Lystra as appointed by Paul and Barnabas (Acts 14:23); At Jerusalem the church had a number of elders (Acts 15:2, 4, 6, 22); The church at Ephesus had a plural number (Acts 20:17,28); the epistle to the Philippian saints with their “bishops and deacons” (Phil 1:1) (Also, bishop and elder are one and the same Greek word) The church of Thessalonians had a number of “them” that were “over” the saints (1Thes 5:12; and so also Titus’ job was to appoint elders in each place. (Tit 1:5). The churches of Christ at Iconium, Derbe, Lystra, Jerusalem, Ephesus, Philippi, Thessalonica, and the churches in the cities of Crete without
exception had elders. (Plural!)
There are no examples to the contrary in the whole of the New Testament. The plurality of elders in each local church is God’s plan for his churches throughout time. I
The departure from this order of things was gradual, resulting finally in a falling away from the New Testament pattern. Paul predicted that from among the eldership would “men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away the disciples after them” (Acts 20:30). That falling away resulted in church located in Rome. This Roman church has “many daughters” that go by various names.

germanJoy
02-01-2006, 02:12 AM
Hi charlesj you have made a very good point here. An apostate church is made evident by a One-Man leadership whom they called (or treated as) pope, pastor, father, leader, apostle, prophet (in worst case god or lord). And these guys enjoy their "power" manipulating the sheeps instead of tending them.

I personally have also seen the need of reforming the traditional structure of all churches that desire to be counted as the "Bride" of Christ. This thread has made a clear explanation of how it should be. However, I just have one question regarding the use of the word "minister" (preacher). Elders and deacons are clear but "minister" in my bible (the way you meant it) is translated as "servant". "Minister" is used only when referring to Christ or the angels.

My home church (praise God) is an Elder-structured church (with Elders who are not necessarily pastors but founders as the major decision-making body and many pastors). The "pastors" are automatically addressed as one since they are preachers. I guess it is more biblical to call one pastor than minister. I would appreciate your comments on this. Thanks.

germanJoy

charlesj
02-01-2006, 08:36 AM
... Elders and deacons are clear but "minister" in my bible (the way you meant it) is translated as "servant". "Minister" is used only when referring to Christ or the angels.

My home church (praise God) is an Elder-structured church (with Elders who are not necessarily pastors but founders as the major decision-making body and many pastors). The "pastors" are automatically addressed as one since they are preachers. I guess it is more biblical to call one pastor than minister. I would appreciate your comments on this. Thanks.

germanJoy

Hello germanJoy:
In Eph 4:11, the preacher (or minister) is called an evangelist (Greek = euaggelistas). If you look at the Greek word, you will see our English has been taken from it.
A "pastor" is an elder. Elders can be preachers, but not all preachers can be
elders. Elders have qualifications laid down in the New Coveanant writings.
The Greek word for pastor is poimen (noun). The verb form of this Greek word poimen is poimaino and means "to shepherd."

1 Peter 5:1-3 KJV 1 Peter 5:1 The elders which are among you I exhort, who am also an elder, and a witness of the sufferings of Christ, and also a partaker of the glory that shall be revealed: 2 Feed (poimaino) the flock of God which is among you, taking the oversight (episkopus) thereof, not by constraint, but willingly; not for filthy lucre, but of a ready mind; {which...: or, as much as in you is} 3 Neither as being lords over God's heritage, but being ensamples to the flock.

Elders are to "feed" (poimaino) the flock of God (local church) for they are
"overseers"(episkopus = epi means 'over' while skopus is the word from which we get out "scope"... the scope on a rifle.) Elders oversee the local group of belivers.
I will write more on this later if you wish.
your servant in the Lord Jesus,
Charlesj

OneJack
02-02-2006, 12:07 AM
Hello germanJoy:
In Eph 4:11, the preacher (or minister) is called an evangelist (Greek = euaggelistas). If you look at the Greek word, you will see our English has been taken from it.
A "pastor" is an elder. Elders can be preachers, but not all preachers can be
elders. Elders have qualifications laid down in the New Coveanant writings.
The Greek word for pastor is poimen (noun). The verb form of this Greek word poimen is poimaino and means "to shepherd."

The Lord Jesus quoted in John 10 that He is the Good Shepherd and this also tantamount to Good Pastor. Do you have any knowledge charlesj as to how this pastoring (Him being the Good Shepherd) is being done by the Lord Jesus in our life today? Is this actual pastoring or biblical reading only/or through the bible way only?

charlesj
02-02-2006, 08:35 AM
The Lord Jesus quoted in John 10 that He is the Good Shepherd and this also tantamount to Good Pastor. Do you have any knowledge charlesj as to how this pastoring (Him being the Good Shepherd) is being done by the Lord Jesus in our life today? Is this actual pastoring or biblical reading only/or through the bible way only?


I believe Jesus has delegated authority to His apostles. It is through these apostles (writings, the Bible) that we have "all" we need to carry out life until He comes back. Jesus has set up His church structure for the local assembly and included elders (pastors), deacons and a minister. Each local assembly is autonomous, that is, self governed by it's eldership. The local assembly has no creeds, no one over it, but the Lord Jesus and follows the teaching of the Bible only. Also, that assembly does not tell any other assembly "how to do things," or another assembly is to tell that local eldership how to serve the Lord. Each local assembly serves the Lord.
The way our Lord has set up His church prevents wide scale apostasy. If you have a central headquarters, for example the Southern Baptists, and that central headquarters tells all the little assemblies what to do or teach (and they do) then you have errors on a massive scale.
The way the assemblies are set up today (with central headquarters, like the Roman church) is part of the falling away that took place years ago.
We need to return to Bible teaching ONLY.

I hope I've answered your question.
thanks,
your servant in the Lord,
CharlesJ