muslims and christians

[zukiful]

assalum ailaycum and peace my christian friends.

my name is zukiful. i am a muslim. i was wondering what real christians think about the theft of palestine by the zionists?

[Hortoon]

Well I believe that it is wrong for anyone nation to have control of any of the holy land but, through out the ages of time war has been a deciding factor on who proclaims what land and from whom they defeat. But let it be known that GOD is the true ruler and he is coming soon. To proclaim total control and rebuild a World more glorious than can be imagined. And this is all supposed to happen in scripture Israel is supposed to split. And in our current time this is an epidemic that is happening and I believe that it is for the better but unfortunately many individuals are being killed ruthlessly for no reason other than greed. Why does it has to be done so tastelessly and with out organization I don’t know. But never the less let it happen he is coming back to get his thrown that he deserves. And we can only be so merciful to him and be thankful for him dying for our sins and to love us as much as he does.

[germanJoy]

assalum ailaycum and peace my christian friends.

my name is zukiful. i am a muslim. i was wondering what real christians think about the theft of palestine by the zionists?
Both Palestinians and Zionists need Jesus Christ to be their Lord and Saviour, the God of peace for them to be able to come into agreement regarding their disputes over settling lands and for them to live peacefully. When Jesus came into this land, He directed the people to build the kingdom of God and not the kingdom of this world. The zionists as well as the palestinians rejected Him. Thus, they ended up fighting for a worldly kingdom.

As a christian, I am a firm believer of the God of Israel, the God of the jewish folk. When God led His chosen people to the promised land, it was and still is His sovereign will that this land of inheritance belongs to His chosen ones. And anyone who goes against this promise made by God to His people sets himself against the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.

I am not saying that the Palestinians have to leave the land.... What I want to imply is this: it would be easier for the Palestinians to live peacefully with the jews if they would become christians. :-)

[Mikem]

Zukiful:
I am a Born Again Christian who read most of the Koran, and studied Muhammed. Christ said to Peter "Those who live by the sword shall die by the sword"
I know it grieves the Lord to see so much bloodshed between the Children of Abraham, but He is allowing us the freedom to choose war or peace. Right now both sides choose war, choosing not to reflect the Grace and Mercy of God.

The Lord is not in a temple, on a mountain. We know not where He comes from or where He goes, for it is His will. So both sides must do what Christ instructed.... Get the log out of your own eye before helping you neighbor with the speck in his own. This goes for America too.

We are all fallen before the Glory of Almighty God.

God Bless both the Children of Issac, and Ishmael, and may the Lord Himself mitigate peace between them.

Amen

[Tamara224]

assalum ailaycum and peace my christian friends.

my name is zukiful. i am a muslim. i was wondering what real christians think about the theft of palestine by the zionists?
What an incredibly inflammatory falsehood you've uttered here! I can't believe no one else has called you on this. Zionists did not steal anything from Palestinians. Let's take a very brief look at history, beginning with ancient times:

God's Eternal Covenant with Israel

Approximately 4,000 years ago, God made a covenant with Abraham to give him and his descendants the land of Canaan, located "from the river of Egypt as far as the great river, the river Euphrates." (Genesis 15:18) This covenant was later restated to Isaac (Genesis 26.2-5) and to Jacob (Genesis 28.13; 35.12). Eventually, God would make this same covenant with the entire house of Israel, as a nation:

"For My angel will go before you and bring you in to the land of the Amorites, the Hittites, the Perizzites, the Canaanites, the Hivites and the Jebusites; and I will completely destroy them.... And I will fix your boundary from the Red Sea to the sea of the Philistines, and from the wilderness to the River Euphrates; for I will deliver the inhabitants of the land into your hand, and you will drive them out before you." (Exodus 23.23,31).

God also declared that Israel would be His "own possession among all the peoples." The requirements of Israel for this covenant is to "obey My [God's] voice and keep My covenant." (Exodus 19:5) Because of this, many people mistakenly believe that, because Israel disobeyed God, He removed them from the land permanently. They say that Israel no longer has a valid claim to the land, according to God's word. Some even go so far as to say that God has cast off His people permanently. However, Scripture does not bear this out. In fact, it states just the opposite.

God was very specific regarding what would happen to Israel if they obeyed Him and the resulting punishment if they failed to obey Him ("the blessings and the curses"). The details are given in Leviticus 26 and Deuteronomy 28. The ultimate penalty for continuing to disobey God was removal from the land of promise (Leviticus 26.33). Yet, there was always the promise of restoration: "Yet in spite of this, when they are in the land of their enemies, I will not reject them, nor will I so abhor them as to destroy them, breaking My covenant with them; for I am the Lord their God." (Leviticus 26:44; see also Jeremiah 31.35-37; Lamentations 4.22; Micah 7.18-20) God never declared that He would utterly abandon the Jewish people: "'Yet even in those days', declares the Lord, 'I will not make you a complete destruction.'" (Jeremiah 5:18; see also Amos 9.8) God, instead, promised that a remnant of Israel would return to the land that He promised to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob (Isaiah 11.11-14; 43.5-6; Zephaniah 3.14-20). Notice that God is speaking of Israel - the Jewish people - returning to the land, not some other vessel.

Does God want to divide the land of Israel and give a portion of it to the 'Palestinians' - or anybody else - besides the Jewish people? Aside from the Scriptures listed above, there are many more detailing God's promise of the restoration of the Jewish people to the land of Israel. Is it possible, then, that God would want to share the land with other nations? God is very concerned about His land, especially Judea and Samaria. He is also concerned for His holy city Jerusalem. God spoke of the judgment of the nations for doing this very thing: "I will gather all the nations, and bring them down to the valley of Jehoshaphat. Then I will enter into judgment with them there on behalf of My people and My inheritance, Israel, whom they have scattered among the nations; and they have divided up My land." (Joel 3:2)

Many individuals and organizations approve of the idea of the creation of a 'Palestinian' state, as long as it is not headed by a terrorist organization. Their claim is that the 'Palestinian people' need a place to live also. While we could argue the actual existence of a 'Palestinian people', we need to look back at the Scriptures for the correct Biblical position. God commanded Israel 3,500 years ago to remove the pagan nations from the land of Israel and dwell in it. G-d has never changed nor lifted this command. Many in Israel are asking that the 'Palestinians' leave peacefully. There are plenty of places for them to go. Whatever they do, it is not Israel's responsibility to provide a place for them to live. Israel's command from God is to remove the enemy from their midst and dwell in the land.

The issue then of whether to divide Israel or not becomes clear. The land bordered by the Nile and Euphrates Rivers and the Mediterranean Sea and the wilderness of Jordan belongs to God, Who, in turn, gave it to the Jewish people for an eternal possession. It cannot be shared nor given away. God gave Israel a clear command regarding making covenants with their enemies: "and when the Lord your God shall deliver them before you, and you shall defeat them, then you shall utterly destroy them. You shall make no covenant with them and show no favor to them." (Deuteronomy 7:2)

The basic answer to Israel's problem with the 'Palestinians' - and the nations of the world - is to trust God, not man.

Many Christians are asking what they can do to help Israel. As Christians, it is our job to encourage Israel to believe the promises God made to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. We must encourage them to return to Israel and build up the land. We must pray and intercede for them to be strong and withstand the pressures of the nations. It is God alone they must fear, not man: "In God I have put my trust, I shall not be afraid. What can man do to me?" (Psalm 56:11) We are the watchmen of Israel. Let us take our job seriously.

"For Zion's sake I will not keep silent, and for Jerusalem's sake I will not keep quiet, until her righteousness goes forth like brightness, and her salvation like a torch that is burning.... On your walls, O Jerusalem, I have appointed watchmen; all day and all night they will never keep silent. You who remind the L-rd, take no rest for yourselves; and give Him no rest until He establishes and makes Jerusalem a praise in the earth." (Isaiah 62:1,6-7)


I will continue in my next post with some facts concerning more recent history of Israel and the conflict with the so-called 'Palestinians.'

[New_Wineskin]

By using the word "theft" , it hinders civil discussion .

[Tamara224]

The following article can be found unedited at http://christianactionforisrael.org/guide.html

Let's first go back to the 19th Century and look at the 'lie of the land'. Palestine, as it was called then (a name given by the Romans in the 1st Century in an effort to remove any Jewish associations with the land) was a poor country, ruled by absentee Turkish landlords, as part of the crumbling and corrupt Ottoman empire. By all accounts the land was largely barren and uninhabited, its population was either nomadic or largely involved with agriculture, despite the poor environment. Sir John William Dawson, writing in 1888, said, "no national union and no national spirit has prevailed there. The motley impoverished tribes which have occupied it have held it as mere tenants at will, temporary landowners, evidently waiting for those entitled to the permanent possession of the soil" (Modern Science in Bible Lands - New York 1890 - pp. 449-450). In 1835, Alphonse de Lamartine wrote, "Outside the gates of Jerusalem we saw indeed no living object, heard no living sound, we found the same void, the same silence …" (Recollections of the East, Vol I (London 1845) pp 268).

Thanks to the Turks, the land had been totally neglected. Hundreds of years of abuse had turned the country into a treeless waste, with malaria-ridden swamps, a sprinkling of towns and an unliveable desert in the south. This was the position in 1880, and this is incontestable fact.

Palestine was simply an outpost of the corrupt and decaying Turkish Ottoman Empire, a part of Greater Syria. It was not a country or a state in the manner of, say, an England or Germany at that time. It was simply a collection of villages that happen to exist within the geographical region known as Palestine. Although many Arabs did own their own homes, the majority were the poor "fellahin", who worked as hired hands for the landowners. There was no nationalism in the land, no feeling of belonging to a "people", loyalty was to the local clan or village. Arabs did not see themselves as "Palestinians" and often referred to their homeland as Southern Syria.
Jews had lived in the land right from biblical times, though, in the 19th century, they were very much the minority. The first major wave of Jewish immigration started in the 1880s and, by the end of the 19th century, Jewish population had tripled to over 80,000 (Arab sources).

This included the foundation of the Jewish settlement of Rishon-le- Zion, where 40 Jewish families settled - followed later by more than 400 Arab families from Egypt and elsewhere. This was a community that worked and was at peace. The Arabs saw the benefits of what the Jews were doing to the land and joined them. Between 1882 and 1914 pioneering Jews started, slowly, to transform the land. They worked on the swamps and the undrained rivers. Life was tough, if you didn't die of malaria, you could be killed by Bedouins. Soon Jewish villages were springing up all over, and the towns of Jerusalem, Tiberias, Safed and Haifa started to grow. In 1909 they founded the first modern Jewish city, Tel Aviv. Life was still tough, although disease wasn't so much the problem. Attacks by Arab neighbours increased, even though, through the efforts of these Jewish pioneers, life for all in the land was improving - including the Arab neighbours.

Newspapers and other media sources today give the impression that Israel "occupy" land once owned by people living in a "Palestinian state". But evidence is to the contrary. For a start, the Arabs in no way saw themselves as "Palestinians". When the First congress of Muslim-Christian Associations met in Jerusalem in February 1919, the agreement was that "we consider Palestine as part of Arab Syria". The only people who considered themselves "Palestinians" in the first half of the 20th century were the Jewish inhabitants! Even the Jewish national newspaper was called "The Palestine Post" (now called "The Jerusalem Post").

Did Jewish immigrants seize it or was the land acquired legally? Land settled in by these first immigrants in the 1880s was bought from the absentee Turkish landlords, who were eager for the extra cash. The land initially settled in was the uncultivated swampy cheap and empty land. Later on they bought cultivated land, some of it at exorbitant prices. In his memoirs, King Abdullah of Jordan wrote "… the Arabs are as prodigal in selling their land as they are in useless wailing and weeping". Up until 1948, with the formation of the State of Israel, no land was seized or acquired in any way other than through legal means.

In the 20th century, Arabs as well as Jews were immigrating into Palestine, mainly from Egypt, TransJordan, Syria and Lebanon. Between 1922 and 1931, when the country was administered by the British, illegal Arab immigrants (i.e. extra to the agreed quotas) comprised almost 12% of the Arab population. The Hope Simpson Report acknowledged in 1930 that there was "uncontrolled influx of illegal immigrants from Egypt, TransJordan and Syria". The rate of immigration increased during the early 1930s, which was a period of prosperity in Palestine. The Syrian Governor of Hauran admitted in 1934 that 30,000-36,000 people from his district entered Palestine that year and settled there. In 1939, Winston Churchill said "Far from being persecuted, the Arabs have crowded into the country and multiplied until their population has increased more than even all world Jewry could lift up (increase) the Jewish population". This is an important (though much contested) point, because it dispels the myth that the Palestinian people have lived there for generations.

***

In a nutshell, what happened was that the day after Israel became a country, it was invaded by Egypt, Transjordan, Syria, Lebanon and Iraq. Within 2 weeks, against all odds, Israel was victorious, resulting in an expansion of territory and the displacement of hundreds of thousands of Arabs who had been living in Palestine. As a result of these events not one but two refugee situations were created.

Just under 750,000 Arabs (U.N. estimate) lost their homes. These became the `Palestinian' refugees. They lost their homes through two main reasons. Some were driven out by the Jewish (Israeli) army, others fled after being told to do so by Arab army commanders, expecting an eventual victory (i.e. when the Jews would be driven out of the land), at which time people could return to their homes.

Up until 1948, Jews had lived in most of the Arab Muslim countries of the Middle East. In most cases they had been there over 1000 years before Islam even existed. From 1947 hundreds of Jews in Arab lands were killed in government-organized rioting, leaving thousands injured and millions of dollars in Jewish property destroyed. In 1948 Jews were forcibly ejected from Iraq, Egypt, Libya, Syria, Lebanon, Yemen, Tunisia, Morocco and Algeria, who confiscated property from the fleeing Jews worth tens of billions in today's dollars. Of the 820,000 Jewish refugees created by this situation, 590,000 were absorbed by Israel.

Palestinian refugees still exist, in camps, on the West Bank, in Gaza and elsewhere. Have you ever wondered why?

The 820,000 Jewish refugees who were forcibly ejected from Arab countries where they had often lived for thousands of years were all welcomed and integrated into Israel or the Jewish world elsewhere, where they became full citizens. There are no Jewish refugee camps. The 750,000 Arab refugees who were displaced in 1948, were placed into squalid refugee camps by fellow Arabs who had just gone to war (and lost) on their behalf but were unwilling to pay for the consequences. Incredibly, over 50 years later, over a million of these poor people are still in these camps, despite billions of dollars of relief paid by rich Arab states, the United Nations, the EU and others. Where on earth has this money gone and why on earth are they still in camps and not integrated into Arab society?

Palestinian Arabs are no doubt a peaceful, welcoming and gifted people, but they have been the greatest victims of the whole sorry affair, pawns in a wider struggle orchestrated by their powerful Arab brethren. For reasons known only to their political and religious masters they have lived for two or three generations within the bounds of these camps. Isn't a refugee camp meant to be a temporary home, as it has been for millions of refugees in other situations, until the people could be relocated to homes of their own? Not so here. Palestinians were never allowed to be "ordinary" refugees. They have been kept in a form of forced captivity for a sinister purpose. A purpose that has succeeded in transforming a peace-loving gentle people into terrorist pariahs and has provided an atmosphere where it is considered holy and noble to send your young men and women out as living weapons of destruction to blow up other young men and women. What must this do to their national psyche, when suicide is seen as a positive ideal? Let's be honest here and consider who is really responsible for this tragedy. It is not Israel. Can't they see who their real enemy is?

[Mikem]

Was not Ishmael a descendant of Abraham?

[Mikem]

Well: I found the answer to my own question:

Genesis
20 X**XAnd as for Ishmael, I have heard thee: Behold, I have blessed him, and will make him fruitful, and will multiply him exceedingly; twelve princes shall he beget, and I will make him a great nation.
21 X**XBut my covenant will I establish with Isaac, which Sarah shall bear unto thee at this set time in the next year.

[blueheron32]

german joy, said..

As a christian, I am a firm believer of the God of Israel, the God of the jewish folk. When God led His chosen people to the promised land, it was and still is His sovereign will that this land of inheritance belongs to His chosen ones. And anyone who goes against this promise made by God to His people sets himself against the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.

Soo...germanjoy.. how is one to tell if a person is a true descendant of Abraham Isaac and Jacob.? and therefore an heir of the "promise" for this land that seems to be in such dispute..

just curious...:-)
blueheron32

[germanJoy]

german joy, said..

As a christian, I am a firm believer of the God of Israel, the God of the jewish folk. When God led His chosen people to the promised land, it was and still is His sovereign will that this land of inheritance belongs to His chosen ones. And anyone who goes against this promise made by God to His people sets himself against the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.

Soo...germanjoy.. how is one to tell if a person is a true descendant of Abraham Isaac and Jacob.? and therefore an heir of the "promise" for this land that seems to be in such dispute..

just curious...:-)
blueheron32
blue, I think we both know who truly are the true descendants of Israel. We need to specify first whether we meant physical or spiritual Israel.

Spiritual Israel descendants are all those who are in Christ like you and me..., we are the "Israel" chosen of God, circumcision of the heart not of the flesh, by the Spirit and not by the letter. Shall I go on or leave the rest to you? :-)

The physical Israel is of course the jewish folk recognized now as a nation Israel by the world. They are the descendants of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. It is entirely impossible of course to know who carries their genes. However, a genuine jew is one who follows Judaism with its law, etc. while the palestinians are followers of Islam, not all but most (being descendants of Ishmael and "presumably" some of Esau).

As to the "heir" of promise for the land Israel, they are I believe to be the "christian" jews. :-)

[blueheron32]

Spiritual Israel descendants are all those who are in Christ like you and me..., we are the "Israel" chosen of God, circumcision of the heart not of the flesh, by the Spirit and not by the letter. Shall I go on or leave the rest to you?

Ok..:-) the above I think I agree with...

The physical Israel is of course the jewish folk recognized now as a nation Israel by the world. They are the descendants of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. It is entirely impossible of course to know who carries their genes. However, a genuine jew is one who follows Judaism with its law, etc. while the palestinians are followers of Islam, not all but most (being descendants of Ishmael and "presumably" some of Esau).

Here is where my question lies... what evidence can you show that suggests that those "jewish folk" who are now living in the nation called "Israel" are in fact actual physical descendants of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.? Another related question is...Do promises in the Bible made by God to the "physical" descendants, of Abraham, apply to people who are not his actual descendants but are of a different origin entirely...? Oh...:-) and another question...Did God not entirely fulfill all his promises to physical israel concerning the land? :-) take your time...I know your busy....:-)

Blueheron32

[Bikn4God]

First of all, let's review our history lesson...

It was Isaac who received the blessing of the land from God. Ishmael was promised a kingdom, not the land.

The true "Palestinians" , for the lack of a better word, are the Jews. The land was named "Palestine" and was called this until the days the British governed the region. Upon separation from Britain, the Jews formed their own nation in 1948, proclaiming the nation, once again, of Israel.

The so called "Palestinians" of today, are not "Palestinians" at all. They are an assortment of Arabs and such from neighboring countries such as Jordan and Syria. They have no religious or political claims to the land currently held by Israel. Leaders such as Arafat claimed this land belongs to the " Palestinians". Arafat was himself, was an Egyptian. How could he even make a claim like that?

True Christians will stand by Israel, God's chosen people. Jesus decended from the lineage of King David. A Jew. Israel is loved in the hearts of all those who claim Christ. Many have tried to destroy Israel, and failed. Many more will try, and fail. And this will be so until Christ makes His second coming, which we believe to be soon.

Christians who have familiarized themselves with the Qu'ran know that Jews and Christians are reviled. The Qu'ran tells Islamic believers that if anyone does not confess Allah as God or Muhummad as Prophet... to "kill them". That is plain and simple. How is a Christian to respond to that?

Jesus Christ said, "I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life, no one comes to the Father except through Me." Muslims believe that Jesus is a "Messenger" or a "Prophet", deserving " respect". If you believe that He is a messenger from God, or a prophet... then why do you not believe His words? Think it over.

Finally, God said to Abraham about the Jews.... " I will bless those who bless you, and curse those who curse you. " Those are the words of Almighty God. I send my blessings to Israel. Always will.

I wrote this not to offend. I wrote this because my opinion was asked.

CJ

[Bikn4God]

Here is the problem...

The Qu'ran will not allow peace between Christians and Muslims. It is forbidden. Will NOT happen. The media and politicians have this pipe dream that this is possible. Not possible. You cannot change Islamic doctrine. No more than we're going to change the words of Christ.

The Bible always stated that this region would be in turmoil, and it always has been. They've been contesting this land since Abrahams tent! It's the longest running blood feud in the history of this planet.

When Christ returns, He will set things right. All prophecies and events will be focused on Israel. It has to be. The Bible says it will be so. And that is what I believe, the Bible.

I pray for my Jewish brothers and sisters. I care what happens to them. And so should all Christians who are TRULY Christians.

CJ
SFFS

[blueheron32]

Finally, God said to Abraham about the Jews.... " I will bless those who bless you, and curse those who curse you. " Those are the words of Almighty God. I send my blessings to Israel. Always will.

Ummm..biken..:-) where exactly did God say this to abraham about the "jews"? Im having a little trouble finding it...

blueheron32

[Bikn4God]

Tamara224,

God Bless you. That was the most lucid and intelligent, letter I've seen on here in regards to this issue. You are most informed on this matter.

I do not cower like the politicians and the media.... too scared to speak the truth. I do not form "warm and fuzzy " relationships with those who are commanded to hate Jews and Christians. I do not form relationships with those who indiscriminately murdered thousands of Jews and Christians in the Middle East, Asia, and Africa. I do not form relationships with those who condone the murder of 3000 innocent people in the World Trade Center, the Pentagon, and the hijacked airliners on September 11, 2001. I do not form relationships with those who kidnap innocent people and behead them. I do not form relationships with those who killed so many innocent people on the trains of Madrid and the subways of London. And I do not form relationships with those who preach from their mosques and platforms the "Extermination of Israel" and the denial of the Holocaust.

Tamara... I applaud you for standing up for God's chosen people. And for being strong and telling the truth. God Bless you!

Shalom!

CJ
SFFS

[Godsent]

assalum ailaycum and peace my christian friends.

my name is zukiful. i am a muslim. i was wondering what real christians think about the theft of palestine by the zionists?
One day i will be able to actual post something up for this subject but for now i havent really read up on it all that much so im gonna sit this one out so i dont end up stirring someone wrong ... :)

[Tamara224]

Finally, God said to Abraham about the Jews.... " I will bless those who bless you, and curse those who curse you. " Those are the words of Almighty God. I send my blessings to Israel. Always will.

Ummm..biken..:-) where exactly did God say this to abraham about the "jews"? Im having a little trouble finding it...

blueheron32

The original instance of God pronouncing this promise occurrs in Genesis 12:

I will make you into a great nation
and I will bless you;
I will make your name great,
and you will be a blessing.

I will bless those who bless you,
and whoever curses you I will curse;
and all peoples on earth
will be blessed through you."

As you can clearly see, Blueheron, this promise was not limited to Abram/Abraham alone. First, God promised he would make Abraham into a great nation, then the other promises followed. It seems obvious to me, and most other people, that this promise extended to the great nation which God promised he would make Abram into.

Also, we see that in dealings with the nation of Israel, the Jews, God treated this promise as applying to the entire nation and not just to Abram. In Numbers chapter 22 you can read the story of Balaam who was hired to put a curse on the Israelites.
But God said to Balaam, "Do not go with them. You must not put a curse on those people, because they are blessed."

If there is any doubt that God's promise to Abram was intended as a promise to all of Israel, this passage proves that it was because that's how God acted it out. Abram/Abraham wasn't alive anymore and yet putting a curse on Israel was still not permitted, because they were blessed. By God.

God's promises to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob were clearly meant to establish a special relationship between God and that lineage or nationality of people. I have to say that I honestly feel a pang of fear when I hear Christians say things like God has turned his back on Israel. I've heard the lame "there aren't any true Jews left, anyway" statement on this (and another board) and I gotta say...First, what proof do you have to make that statement. And Second, saying so means you have to negate or ignore more of God's promises:

Genesis 26:2-5
The LORD appeared to Isaac and said,... "For to you and your descendants I will give all these lands and will confirm the oath I swore to your father Abraham. 4 I will make your descendants as numerous as the stars in the sky and will give them all these lands, and through your offspring all nations on earth will be blessed, 5 because Abraham obeyed me and kept my requirements, my commands, my decrees and my laws."

The descendants of Isaac were promised to be as numerous as the stars. Notice that the promise of God was given "because Abraham obeyed" God. The only thing coming close to a 'condition' or in legal terms 'consideration' for the promise, was Abraham's past actions. God's promise was for the future. How many times has God said he would not abandon His People? (See my first post on this thread, if you wonder).

When God makes a promise, He keeps it. I'm counting on that for my own salvation. And so are you. I would be very careful suggesting otherwise. In fact, I personally am downright terrified of suggesting otherwise. If I can't trust in God to keep his promises, then I have no eternal security. Lukily for all of us, God keeps his promises. So, I will continue to Bless Israel and pray for the peace of Jerusalem, because I fear the Lord who keeps his promises.

Psalm122:6-7
Pray for the peace of Jerusalem:
"May those who love you be secure.

May there be peace within your walls
and security within your citadels."

[Tamara224]

Thank you Bikn4God. Shalom and God Bless to you as well. And ditto to all that you've said. I'm just about sick to death of people being so politically correct that when they see a flaming OP like this one, they immediately switch into defensive mode and start acting like the Truth is a disease they must stay away from.

You will get opposition in this world if you support Israel and bless the descendents of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. The world and Satan HATE Israel because Israel was chosen by God to be the nation through which we received God's most precious gift to us: His only begotten Son. Nevertheless, I would rather be cursed by the world and Blessed by God than blessed by the world and cursed by God!

[Bikn4God]

Psalm 122.... Ahhhh.....such a nice prayer!

I'm going to sidetrack for just a second... because this issue is something that hits close to home and concerns me.

There is no bigger fan of Israel than me. ( That's just me talking, ok? ) I have read the Bible cover to cover many times. I have read the struggles of the Israelis over the centuries. Not only does the Bible describe this, but also history itself.

Regardless of the struggles, the Jews have prevailed and overcome so many hardships, and that is an understatement.

It behooves me as to why the world hates them so bad. Not just the Muslims, whose "holy book" commands them to. But the rest of the world also. It seems that whenever the world needs a scapegoat or someone to hate, they automatically turn to the Jews. And this saddens me. For the most part, they are a peace loving, industrial, resourceful, and kind nation.

Many have invaded them, and tried to destroy them. Against impossible odds, they prevailed. Numerous Arab armies attacked them only to be soundly defeated. By all military doctrine, Israel should have been defeated. But they were not.

I sincerely believe that the Bible is true, and the promises of God, made to Israel, hold true today. They are very blessed and special people.

I have also seen Christians who have turned from Israel and have joined the rest of secular society in their opinions of Israel and the Jews. I have seen it go as far as financial support to the Palestinians, the very ones who want to see Israel cease to exist. It saddens me that Christians have gone to this extent and have abandoned God's chosen people. And I also believe that those who have abandoned Israel will receive their recompense from God.

Will Israel cease to exist? No, they will not. God has not abandoned His people. And with God in their corner, no one will prevail against them. And I believe that Christians need to stand behind our Jewish brothers and sisters and love them. They will come to know who the real Messiah is. That will happen in due time. In the meantime... we are to support and care for them.

Peace in the Middle East in our lifetime? Never. It's not going to happen. If anything, it's going to produce more wars. It's a fact. We can hide if we want to, and deny it's gonna happen. But it's gonna happen.

I pray for the peace of Jerusalem. I pray for the safety and security of Israel. And I bless them, and the works of their hands. They're God's people, and my people.

Shalom!

CJ
SFFS

[germanJoy]

CJ and Tamara, I too remain to be always on the side of Israel no matter what happens. However, there is something important we should not miss here.

The "political" scenario of Israel had not changed from the beginning and even since the time of Jesus. The jewish folks would disobey God, God would hand them over to the enemies, they would repent, then God would restore them as He promised. Then the history repeated itself also during the time of Jesus. At that time, Israel was not a nation, they were under the Roman Empire. So they expected that Jesus Christ as the Messiah would restore their nation from the hands of the Romans. However, there was nothing Jesus ever said or did that met their expectations. To their disappointments, Jesus never showed interest on the restoration of Israel, neither as a land nor as a nation, neither politically nor earthly. Why? because Jesus introduced totally new things: a "New Jerusalem", a "New Kingdom", a "New Promise" i.e., A NEW WAY TO THE HEAVENLY KINGDOM OF GOD on earth, His Church, His Bride. He was pointing to God's promise to Abraham whose seeds will be a great nation and all the people of the earth (jews and gentiles) will be blessed. That was the redeemed ISRAEL of God Jesus Christ was talking about, not the nation Israel the christians including their politicians are standing up and fighting for today.

I will make you into a great nation and I will bless you; I will make your name great, and you will be a blessing.

I will bless those who bless you, and whoever curses you I will curse;
and all peoples on earth will be blessed through you."

Jesus did not pray for the peace of Jerusalem... On the contrary, He prophesied of wars and rumors of wars... of destruction...of desolation...of the coming "New Jerusalem", the new heaven and the new earth. So which peace are you really praying for? :-(

[Tamara224]

Jesus did not pray for the peace of Jerusalem... On the contrary, He prophesied of wars and rumors of wars... of destruction...of desolation...of the coming "New Jerusalem", the new heaven and the new earth. So which peace are you really praying for? :-(

Hey GermanJoy...it took a while to respond to this one...sorry.

First...it was never recorded that Jesus prayed for the peace of Jerusalem but that doesn't mean he never did it.

Second, when I pray for the peace of Jerusalem, what I am really praying for is Christ to return because only then will there be peace in Jerusalem. Also, I am expressing my love of Jerusalem as the only city on earth chosen by God as His city.

Third, I agree with you in that part of the promise to Abraham was that all the nations would be blessed through them and that was fulfilled in Christ. However, that wasn't all of the promise...there was a physical non-spiritual aspect to the promise as well. It doesn't have to be one or other. And, the nation that is now Israel may not be perfect now and not the Theocracy it was intended to be. But, it never was perfect in the OT and often existed in it's non-perfect, unrepentent state for a while before God did anything about it.

I believe that it is clear and unmistakable that in the last days the nation of Israel (politically and 'racially') will have further part to play in the world. Thus, the promises are still relevant and the nation that is Israel today does need our support which is based on Biblical foundation.

[truthseeker]

german joy, said..

As a christian, I am a firm believer of the God of Israel, the God of the jewish folk. When God led His chosen people to the promised land, it was and still is His sovereign will that this land of inheritance belongs to His chosen ones. And anyone who goes against this promise made by God to His people sets himself against the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.

Soo...germanjoy.. how is one to tell if a person is a true descendant of Abraham Isaac and Jacob.? and therefore an heir of the "promise" for this land that seems to be in such dispute..

just curious...:-)
blueheron32

You raised an interesting question. It appears that the Zionists (led by Rothschild) are not genetic Jews at all, but come from Russian Jews who were converts to Judaism.
Here is a very enlightening timeline (http://iamthewitness.com/DarylBradfordSmith_Rothschild.htm)on this group and their Banker Sponsors.

The following is a small portion which I copied from an article linked above.

The Rothschilds claim that they are Jewish, when in fact they are Khazars. They are from a country called Khazaria, which occupied the land locked between the Black Sea and the Caspian Sea which is now predominantly occupied by Georgia. The reason the Rothschilds claim to be Jewish is that the Khazars under the instruction of the King, converted to the Jewish faith in 740 A.D., but of course that did not include converting their Asiatic Mongolian genes to the genes of the Jewish people.

You will find that approximately 90% of people in the world today who call themselves Jews are actually Khazars, or as they like to be known, Ashkenazi Jews. These people knowingly lie to the world with their claims that the land of Israel is theirs by birthright, when in actual fact their real homeland is over 800 miles away in Georgia.

So, next time you hear an Israeli Prime Minister bleating about the so-called persecution of the Jews, consider this, every Prime Minister of Israel has been an Ashkenazi Jew. Therefore when all these Prime Ministers have curried favour with the West for their re-establishment of a Jewish homeland, they have knowingly and deliberately lied to you, as they were never from that region, and they well know it, because it is they who call themselves Ashkenazi Jews.

The Book of Revelation, Chapter 2, Verse 9, states the following which would appear to be about these Ashkenazi Jews:

"I know thy works, and tribulation and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan."

The most wealthy bloodline in the world bar none and the leader of the Ashkenazi Jews in the world today is the Rothschild family. As you will see in the timeline, the Rothschilds have obtained this position through lies, manipulation and murder. Their bloodline also extends into the Royal Families of Europe, and the following family names: Astor; Bundy; Collins; duPont; Freeman; Kennedy; Morgan; Oppenheimer; Rockefeller; Sassoon; Schiff; Taft; and Van Duyn.

However, these are not the only bloodlines to worry about. You are probably aware of the centuries old pratice undertaken by many Ashkenazi Jews whereby they would change their name, in order for them to appear part of the dominant race of the country in which they lived, so as they could obtain influential positions in that country, which they would then exploit to serve their real masters elsewhere. There is plenty of evidence to prove the Rothschilds continue that deceptive tradition.

Furthermore the Rothschilds are known to sire many children secretly that they can put into positions of power when required. This started with the very first man who took the name Rothschild, who had a secret sixth son. Finally, remember the world is a diverse place, I could if I wanted change my name to Rothschild, or any of the names listed above, and that would not make me part of this family anymore than converting to Judaism in 740 A.D. will make these Ashkenazis Jewish.

Please, therefore, do not automatically assume someone you see with the name Rothschild or any of the names listed above are part of the Rothschild criminal network. Furthermore and most importantly, the majority of Ashkenazi Jews are innocent and not part of this network. Check the facts out for yourself first, this article is designed to inform people who the enemy is, not single out people of a particular race or people with a particular surname, who may have nothing to do with this Rothschild criminal network.

[bird seed]

Greetings in the name of Yeshua, Hamashiah

Though Palistine through the centuries, has been owned by many different counties in the name of conquest,
In the end, the one who will be in possesion of Palistine is (Yah - hayaw,) Himself, at this time, the very nature of men and animals will be changed.
.....The old days of killing and being killed will stop.
The book of Isaiah, a minor prophet of Israel, and the book of Revelations, of the New Testement gives us a snapshot of how this new world will be and we will read on this more later.

Yeshua, Hamashiah the deliver of the covenant, was priedicted by the Jewish, Major and Minor prophets of Israel -

......Acts 3:25 Ye are the children of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made with our fathers, saying unto Abraham, And in thy seed shall all the kindreds of the earth be blessed.

Paul mentions this promise of Abraham, in his letter to the Anchient church in Galatia, this promise is being brought to the nations (by one seed or person), the bearer of the covenant.

Galations 3:16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ
.....Paul is refering to this seed being one person, (Yeshua,) Hamashiah / Jesus, the one who brings all nations the covenant Abraham

The Apostle Peter, hand picked by Messiah Yeshua himself, tells us in his letter,

2 Peter 3:9 (Yah) is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. vs.10 But the day of (Yah) {judgement day} will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
vs.11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, vs 12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
vs 13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness. vs.14 Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless. vs.15 And account that the longsuffering of ( Yeshua ) Christ is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;

What will this new Earth or New Jerusalem, or the New Palistine be like???

Revelations 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
vs.2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
vs. 3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, [the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them,] and they shall be his people, and [God himself shall be with them,] and be their God.
vs 4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
vs. 5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful. vs.6 And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.
vs. 7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.
vs.8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
.vs.9 And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will show thee the bride, the Lamb's wife.
vs. 10 And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and showed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,
vs. 12 And had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel: vs. 13 On the east three gates; on the north three gates; on the south three gates; and on the west three gates.
vs.24 And (the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it): and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it. vs.27 And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.

Revelations 22:1 And he showed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb vs. 2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and (the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations).
vs. 12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.
.vs.14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
vs. 15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.
vs. 17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And (let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come). And (whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely).

Isaiah 65:16 That he who blesseth himself in the earth shall bless himself in the God of truth; and he that sweareth in the earth shall swear by the God of truth; because the former troubles are forgotten, and because they are hid from mine eyes.
vs. 17 For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.
vs. 18 But be ye glad and rejoice for ever in that which I create: for, behold, I create Jerusalem a rejoicing, and her people a joy.
vs. 19 And I will rejoice in Jerusalem, and joy in my people: and the voice of weeping shall be no more heard in her, nor the voice of crying.
vs.20 There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that hath not filled his days: for the child shall die an hundred years old; but the sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed.
vs. 21 And they shall build houses, and inhabit them; and they shall plant vineyards, and eat the fruit of them.
vs. 23 They shall not labour in vain, nor bring forth for trouble; for they are the seed of the blessed of (Yah), and their offspring with them.
vs. 24 And it shall come to pass, that before they call, I will answer; and while they are yet speaking, I will hear.
vs. 25 The wolf and the lamb shall feed together, and the lion shall eat straw like the bullock: and dust shall be the serpent's meat. They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain, saith (Yah)

This will be a better world for everyone.
....If we ( Jewish, Arab, Gentile), want to be part of this New Earth we need to align our lives with Yeshua the deliver of the covenant and his people, to be out side will mean disaster

scripture reading King James by valuesoft ware
divine name rendered to (Yah) shortened from original (Yhwh) and english Jesus, to Hebrew/aramaic ( Yeshua )

[bird seed]

Reaping and sowing
Hi there
The Apostle Paul teaches us about the simple principle of sowing and reaping something just about everyone understands. If you sow bad seeds your harvest is going to suffer you the same delivery, therefore we must be careful what we sow.

Galations 6:7 Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap. vs 8 For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting. vs 9 And let us not be weary in well doing: for in due season we shall reap, if we faint not. vs 10 As we have therefore opportunity, let us do good unto all men, especially unto them who are of the household of faith.

So if we sow life we recieve life.
If we sow death we will also recieve death in return.

This sobering reality is revealed by the prophet, Ezekiel where reveals the judgement that will be brought aginst Edom.

Who is Edom ?
Archaeologists and biblical scholars have drawn parallels between the biblical narrative of Isaac and the history of the Semitic tribes. Abraham is thought to represent the nomadic stock out of which the Hebrew and Edomite tribes separated. Isaac is believed to represent the tribes that joined to form the Hebrew confederacy and to give allegiance to the God, Yahweh, or Jehovah, originally a tribal deity; and Ishmael is believed to represent the tribes of Edom."... ..."In making Isaac the legitimate son, and Ishmael the illegitimate son, of their common ancestor, the Hebrews claimed superiority over the independent Edomite tribes. Finally, the rivalry between Isaac's two sons is thought to reflect again the rivalry between Edom and the Hebrews.".. # 1

because of this Edom is full of hatred and revenge against Gods people,

The Prophet Ezekiel shows this principle of the law of sowing and reaping here, because Edom will have to reap what they have sowen.

This is a good example of how we as individuals or even as a nation must be careful to sow good seed.

Ezekiel 35:1. Moreover the word of ( Yah ) came unto me, saying,
2. Son of man, set thy face against mount Seir, and prophesy against it,
3. And say unto it, Thus saith ( Yah ); Behold, O mount Seir, I am against thee, and I will stretch out mine hand against thee, and I will make thee most desolate.
4. I will lay thy cities waste, and thou shalt be desolate, and thou shalt know that I am ( Yah ).
5. Because thou hast had a perpetual hatred, and hast shed the blood of the children of Israel by the force of the sword in the time of their calamity, in the time that their iniquity had an end:
6. Therefore, as I live, saith ( Yah ), I will prepare thee unto blood, and blood shall pursue thee: sith thou hast not hated blood, even blood shall pursue thee.
7. Thus will I make mount Seir most desolate, and cut off from it him that passeth out and him that returneth.
8. And I will fill his mountains with his slain men: in thy hills, and in thy valleys, and in all thy rivers, shall they fall that are slain with the sword.
9. I will make thee perpetual desolations, and thy cities shall not return: and ye shall know that I am the Lord.
10. Because thou hast said, These two nations and these two countries shall be mine, and we will possess it; whereas ( Yah ) was there:
11. Therefore, as I live, saith ( Yah ), I will even do according to thine anger, and according to thine envy which thou hast used out of thy hatred against them; and I will make myself known among them, when I have judged thee.
12. And thou shalt know that I am ( Yah ), and that I have heard all thy blasphemies which thou hast spoken against the mountains of Israel, saying, They are laid desolate, they are given us to consume.
13. Thus with your mouth ye have boasted against me, and have multiplied your words against me: I have heard them.
14. Thus saith ( Yah ); When the whole earth rejoiceth, I will make thee desolate.
15. As thou didst rejoice at the inheritance of the house of Israel, because it was desolate, so will I do unto thee: thou shalt be desolate, O mount Seir, and all Idumea, even all of it: and they shall know that
I am ( Yah ).
Ezekiel 36:1. Also, thou son of man, prophesy unto the mountains of Israel, and say, Ye mountains of Israel, hear the word of ( Yah ):
2. Thus saith ( Yah ); Because the enemy hath said against you, Aha, even the ancient high places are ours in possession:
3. Therefore prophesy and say, Thus saith ( Yah ); Because they have made you desolate, and swallowed you up on every side, that ye might be a possession unto the residue of the heathen, and ye are taken up in the lips of talkers, and are an infamy of the people:
4. Therefore, ye mountains of Israel, hear the word of ( Yah ) ; Thus saith ( Yah ) to the mountains, and to the hills, to the rivers, and to the valleys, to the desolate wastes, and to the cities that are forsaken, which became a prey and derision to the residue of the heathen that are round about;
5. Therefore Thus saith ( Yah ); Surely in the fire of my jealousy have I spoken against the residue of the heathen, and against all Idumea, which have appointed my land into their possession with the joy of all their heart, with despiteful minds, to cast it out for a prey.
6. Prophesy therefore concerning the land of Israel, and say unto the mountains, and to the hills, to the rivers, and to the valleys, Thus saith ( Yah ); Behold, I have spoken in my jealousy and in my fury, because ye have borne the shame of the heathen:
7. Therefore thus saith ( Yah ); I have lifted up mine hand, Surely the heathen that are about you, they shall bear their shame.
8. But ye, O mountains of Israel, ye shall shoot forth your branches, and yield your fruit to my people of Israel; for they are at hand to come.
9. For, behold, I am for you, and I will turn unto you, and ye shall be tilled and sown:
10. And I will multiply men upon you, all the house of Israel, even all of it: and the cities shall be inhabited, and the wastes shall be builded:
11. And I will multiply upon you man and beast; and they shall increase and bring fruit: and I will settle you after your old estates, and will do better unto you than at your beginnings: and
ye shall know that I am ( Yah ).

# 1 - Microsoft® Encarta® Encyclopedia 2002. © 1993-2001 Microsoft Corporation. All rights reserved.
# 2 - Ezekiel the Prophet / Torah - Yehezqel - Nebi'im - Most scholars date the Book of Ezekiel from the first half of the 6th century bc.
Scripture reading is King James by Valuesoft ware
The Lord - changed to tetragramation ( Yah ) - Strong's Number: 3050 Transliterated: Yahh Phonetic: yaw Text: contraction for 3068, and meaning the same; Jah, the sacred name: -Jah, the Lord, most vehement. Compare names in "-iah," "- jah."

I think it important to note because of Abraham this promise is to all nations, expecially the ones outside of Israel.
So Edom has the same promise the rest of the nations to share with Israel because of Abraham. The simple fact remains the deliver was to be revealed through Israel.
If we share in the same covenant, why all the Killing?

All the outside nations have to do is latch on the the covenant that Paul explains in his letters to the various New Testament churchs who were also seeking to be part of this covenant.
The sign of being circumcised makes no difference Jew or Gentile, it is now made in our heart, according to the teaching of the Apostle Paul.
Why not circumcision heart? for sin and hatred begins in the heart and therefore needs to be healed in the heart.

Acts 3:25. Ye are the children of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made with our fathers, saying unto Abraham, And in thy seed shall all the kindreds of the earth be blessed.

Colossians 2: vs 11. In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:

( In the next verse we discover water baptism is part of the sign or witness to the new covenant, together with the Spirit baptism ; born of the water and the Spirit John 3:5 the promise of many nations being blessed by the promise made to Abraham) vs 12. Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

Galations 3: 27. For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. vs 28. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. vs 29. And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise

and finally - Remembering this we should love one another.

Romans 12:8 Or he that exhorteth, on exhortation: he that giveth, let him do it with simplicity; he that ruleth, with diligence; he that showeth mercy, with cheerfulness. vs.9 Let love be without dissimulation. Abhor that which is evil; cleave to that which is good vs. 10 Be kindly affectioned one to another with brotherly love; in honour preferring one another;
Romans 12:19 Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith ( Yah )

Yeshua bless