tongues is it wrong?

[Godsent]

I hear that tongues is Gods language and ive heard it spoken but some people claim its of the devil...however its a langauge that the devil cant understand and when people dont really know how to pray for something they pray in tongues. So i guess i have two questions actually...one is it wrong to speak in tongues and two is the gift of tongues available to everyone and that we should just ask for it? Please give me some scriptures to go along with ur thoughts on this topic...

[TheTreeOfLife]

The New Testament clearly recognizes speaking in tongues as a gift of the Holy Spirit, not of devils. The questions arrise from what some claim to be tongues and what isn't. It can be shown that speaking in tongues is a learned experience, and maybe so, this would explain why some churches have it and some don't. The important thing to do is read God's word on the subject and dig deep line for line word for word. Look in Paul's first letter to the Corinthians chapters 12 and 13...He addresses this very well...and places the significance of tongues where it should be.

Also look to the book of Acts...chapter 2 to see the first expression of this gift and note what speaking in tongues was.

Anyway, that can be argued forever and ever and has been since the begining. As the apostle Paul states, "1Co 12:31 But be earnestly desiring the better spiritual gifts." , first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, next miraculous powers, next spiritual gifts of healings, helpers, leaders...then tongues.

Pray to God for guidence as to what your Spiritual Gifts are...if we look to others and desire their gifts...we may be simply imitating them...and then it is not a gift from the Holy Spirit but our own spirit.

[CheeseKing]

Tongues were used for ministering the word, to those who spoke different languages. It is like me going to germany and all of a sudden I can now speak german, to minister the word to the germans.

Acts 2:11 "Cretans and Arabs- we hear them speaking in our tongues the wonderful works of God."

They were able to speak about God, to those who spoke other languages.

Acts 2:4 "And they were all filled with the holy spirit and began to speak with other tongues, as the spirit gave them utterance."

This is often misunderstood. The holy spirit filled them. The poeple spoke with "other" tongues or rather languages they did not know. The Lord gave them the ability to speak new, unknown languages. It does not say that they spoke the angelic language or anything of that sort. Acts 2:5-12 describe tongues being as everyone being able to speak one language, though they came from foreign countries and spoke different languages. All christians are filled with the holy spirit. The spirit, at this time, came into the peoples' hearts and granted them this new abilty.:-)

[OneJoe]

I hear that tongues is Gods language and ive heard it spoken but some people claim its of the devil...however its a langauge that the devil cant understand and when people dont really know how to pray for something they pray in tongues. So i guess i have two questions actually...one is it wrong to speak in tongues and two is the gift of tongues available to everyone and that we should just ask for it? Please give me some scriptures to go along with ur thoughts on this topic...
Godsent, great questions. First, no tongues is not available to everyone.

1Co 12:8 For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;
1Co 12:9 To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;
1Co 12:10 To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:
1Co 12:11 But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.


1Co 12:29 Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles?
1Co 12:30 Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret?

Obviously, the answer is certainly NO. God gives gifts to whom he will.
.................................................. ..............................................

Now, your other question "is it wrong to speak in tongues"?

Bare with me on this responce. Since I no longer believe that tongues continues today or is the actual event that occured on the day of Pentecost, I certainly would not speak in tongues nor would I desire to if I believed it occured today as the original Pentecost event. Now, in the time that tongues was spoken, the bible was very clear that we should not forbid someone to speak in tongues. However, I believe this time is over and that tongues today is only an utterance of emotions from an individual. I grew up around tongues and that was all I saw. So is it wrong? If it was the original tongues like on Pentecost then No. If its not the original tongues as I don't believe it is, then that answer would be yes it is wrong. I believe that tongues has ceased.

1Co 13:8 Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.
1Co 13:9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.
1Co 13:10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.

Prophecies are no longer real today. God is not giving additional revelation. When the bible was COMPLETE, God said no one should add or take away from bible. Also, verse 10 says when that which is "perfect" is come then that which is in part, which is prophecy, etc. would stop. The word "perfect" in Greek means COMPLETE. When that which is "Complete" is come then they shall cease. I do believe the bible is the complete thing spoken of in scripture. Tongues, was given for the self edification of an individual and for a sign to the unbelievers to help build God's church. Now that God's church has been built and the Complete word of God has come, God is no longer using tongues or giving additional revelation.

Now, I realize that some will disagree with this and they are entitled to their belief; however, this is my firm belief so no I do not speak for everyone.

Also, just as a warning to some, lets keep in mind about the signs and wonders that shall come. Now God did in fact build his church with great signs and wonders, gifts, but lets keep in mind that so shall satan use the signs and wonders.

Heb 2:4 God also bearing them witness, both with signs and wonders, and with divers miracles, and gifts of the Holy Ghost, according to his own will?

Just showing refference..:-)
...............................................

Satan will use this signs and wonders movement.

Mat 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

Mar 13:22 For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall show signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect.

Its just amazing how gifts, or signs and wonders, were used by God for some to believe. Notice what scripture says....

2Th 2:9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,

Joh 4:48 Then said Jesus unto him, Except ye see signs and wonders, ye will not believe.

Just think, God is no longer using prophecy, tongues, etc....and so many believe it still occurs so when the devil steps forth to show the signs and wonders as i believe he is already doing, many people will be decieved and actually serving Satan and so many people will be ignorant of what is going on all around them.

Again, some will disagree with this and will be blind to what I say here, because that is meant to be, but can you think of a better way for Satan to decieve so many people than by using exactly what God used?


To the faithful in Christ, may our heavenly father richly bless you!

Onejoe

[steni97]

Not sure it's really a right or wrong question, not sure if it's something that is ones decision, but being overcome by the Spirit. The disciples spoke in tongues in Acts, but by tongues it was known to someone, and people from different languages heard them praising God in their own tongue. Also, Paul said he would rather pray and Speak with the understanding. Not saying it is wrong, afterall Paul refers to it as a gift.

[hamr]

had the rather uncomfotable experience of a "preacher" speaking in tongues. looked bad for everyone, and scared off those on the fence, and made a mockery. I believe fully that he believed he was helping, but found it hard to believe that a man is inclined to speak in tongues all day, everyday, for trivial concernes, and the Lord was speaking through him directly to tell us to purchass cheese from students. Just came back-don't have the scripture, but remember something about tongues being directly guided by God, as a direct message, for an explicit purposs.

[Godsent]

I have made a mental not to everyones thoughts and written down the verses that dealed directly with my question....and Joe i noticed that u actually had a post on tongues from awhile back and im going to jot the verses down that are mentioned in peoples post there...Thanks everyone bye and GBY

[Walter]

Godsent, great questions. First, no tongues is not available to everyone.......(snipped for brevity.)

Hello, Onejoe. Great post.

I don't know if you remember me but I chatted with you before when this board was in its old format. You always have astute answers and I respect that.

I have been approached with this issue of speaking in tongues by someone who clearly believes it is very valid. Valid to the point that he sees it as baptism by fire of the Holy Spirit.

My first reaction to people who speak about this is to start looking for the door. It scares me but I sat and listened to him and went over the verses about the subject. I figured maybe God wanted me to hear about this but then............what about the devil? Is he trying to get through to me because what is it that scares me about this?

I have to admit that I don't know. The Bible says it is a gift from the Holy Spirit and not everyone receives this gift. I was immediately convinced that I wasn't one to receive this gift or at least that is what I told myself.
(I have trouble shouting Halleluyeh, sometimes)
In any event, I trust the Holy Spirit that lives in me to guide me and so my fear is unfounded. Prayers for guidance will see me through because I trust in the Lord God in all things.
However, it brings me back to the substance of your post. It is a well written and thought-out response and I was wondering if you would mind me copying it to show to my friend. I know I could just do that anyway but I wanted you to know.

Godspeed,

Walter

[tallique]

I hear that tongues is Gods language and ive heard it spoken but some people claim its of the devil...however its a langauge that the devil cant understand and when people dont really know how to pray for something they pray in tongues. So i guess i have two questions actually...one is it wrong to speak in tongues and two is the gift of tongues available to everyone and that we should just ask for it? Please give me some scriptures to go along with ur thoughts on this topic...


There are two types of tongues, the known tongue and the unknown tongue. the unknown tongue is what nobody can interperet. You have to have an interpereter so that others can understand. There are tongue that are from the devel. The interpereter can tell theytype of tongue

[Godsent]

Ok ive come across a lot of scriptures that deal with tongues...im going to post them up now and try to actually put them in order from front of the bible to back...

Isaiah 28:11-For with stamerring lips and another tongue will he speak to this people.

Joel 2:28-29-And it shall come to pass afterward,that i will pour out my spirit upon all flesh;and your sons and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions:and also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will i pour out my spirit.

Mark 16:17-And these signs shall follow them that believe; in my name shall they cast out devils;they shall speak with new tongues.

John 7:38-39-He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said,out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.(But this spake he of the Spirit,which they that believe on him should recieve:for the Holy Ghost was not yet given;because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)

Acts 1:4-5-And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem,but wait for the promise of the Father,which,saith he, ye have heard of me. For John truly baptized with water;but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.

Acts 1:8-But ye shall recieve power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you:and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem,and in all Judaea and in Samaria,and unto the uttermost part of the earth.

Acts 2-(the whole chapter has a lot about tongues its real good to read.)

Acts 10:46-Fotr they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God...

Acts 19:1-10-(deals with baptism and tongues also...)

1 Corinthians 12,13,14- these are three real good chapters talking about tongues and the spiritual gift of love.

Hebrews 2:4-Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.

[OneJoe]

Hello walter, actually I do remember you quite well. I usually remember people on the board..:-) Also, yes I know some view tongues as "baptism by fire of the Holy Spirit" and I'm sure a view like that would certainly have made perfect sense for the day of Pentecost. Furthermore, in regard to your copying the post, no I do not mind since he/she could easily view it here on the board anyhow. Although, it would be even better if your friend came to join us here at the Christian Chat Forum..:-) It would certainly save you some copy and paste and it's great to have new people. Anyhow, if you do decide to copy and show this to your friend, I also ask that you explain to your friend to search out what he/she reads.

May the Lord richly bless you Walter.

Onejoe

[Walter]

Hello walter, actually I do remember you quite well. I usually remember people on the board..:-) Also, yes I know some view tongues as "baptism by fire of the Holy Spirit" and I'm sure a view like that would certainly have made perfect sense for the day of Pentecost. Furthermore, in regard to your copying the post, no I do not mind since he/she could easily view it here on the board anyhow. Although, it would be even better if your friend came to join us here at the Christian Chat Forum..:-) It would certainly save you some copy and paste and it's great to have new people. Anyhow, if you do decide to copy and show this to your friend, I also ask that you explain to your friend to search out what he/she reads.

May the Lord richly bless you Walter.

Onejoe


Thanks for your blessing and reply Onejoe, I value your opinion.

It is a good idea to get this fellow I was speaking of to read this board but he does not own a computer and knows nothing about them.
However, I still think it is a good idea because I can pull up this board and let him read it with me. I showed your post to my wife and she was impressed as well.
Your advice about searching out what is read is good advice for myself as well. I need to do more research on a number of doctrines such as predestination, salvation and baptism. I will check with you for resources if you can refer me. Of course, Bible verses are considered by me to be excellent resource.

By the way and off this topic, does Pastor Russ Welch post on this board since it was changed to the new format? Just curious. I really don't want to run into him anymore.

I'm glad you remember me and I look forward to fellowship and learning here on this board.

Blessings and peace be with you,

Walter

[OneJoe]

Thanks for your blessing and reply Onejoe, I value your opinion.

It is a good idea to get this fellow I was speaking of to read this board but he does not own a computer and knows nothing about them.
However, I still think it is a good idea because I can pull up this board and let him read it with me. I showed your post to my wife and she was impressed as well.
Your advice about searching out what is read is good advice for myself as well. I need to do more research on a number of doctrines such as predestination, salvation and baptism. I will check with you for resources if you can refer me. Of course, Bible verses are considered by me to be excellent resource.

By the way and off this topic, does Pastor Russ Welch post on this board since it was changed to the new format? Just curious. I really don't want to run into him anymore.

I'm glad you remember me and I look forward to fellowship and learning here on this board.

Blessings and peace be with you,

Walter
Walter, no Russ Welch does not post here at the Christian Chat Forum any longer. He was no longer posting on the last board shortly after you left for a while also. He is as I will say gone and will not be posting here; however, there are many other people like him and I'm sure you will indeed run into many so as the bible says Eph 6:11"Put on the whole armor of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil." Eph 6:13 "Wherefore take unto you the whole armor of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand."


Onejoe

[Robert]

Walter you may find this helpful when discussing the mater with your friend.
This is basically a repeat of a post I made from another thread presented by Joe, with a little editing and a few additions. What I didn’t mention in the first reply was that the word “unknown” in unknown tongues, was not to be found in the original manuscripts and should be removed.
The word, unknown is in italics signifying that the original Greek manuscripts did not contain this or any such word. It was added by the translators in an attempt to be more informative. But since that time a false doctrine has emerged in many of our churches to their detriment and shame; and shame on the congregation for listening to the traditions of man. Instead of checking out the Word of God for themselves, they are content to listen to the twisted truths of your miss trusted one verse Rev. They who believe this nonsense have “ticklish ears.” They are lazy, they expect others to do the interpreting for them, get yourselves a Strong's numbered concordance and Hebrew, Chaldee, and Greek numbered dictionary. These and many other useful “tools” are available free on the web if you don’t wish to purchase them for yourself.
I know I have probably offended some of you,… I don’t apologise, truth hurts sometimes. When you’ve checked out the true Word of God for yourself , without twisting the meaning to suite your needs there will be two people your mad at, that will be yourself and the one you have been listening to all these years.

I Cor 14:2 “For he that speaketh in an [unknown] tongue ( Language ) speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.”

Interestingly the word tongue in Strong's Greek dictionary is # 1100. "Glossa, gloce-sah'; a language, (the language or dialect used by a particular people distinct from that of other nations) ie. English, German, Spanish etc. So instantly we see that this is not babbling or strange utterances, but understandable speech,….. a language.
So the next obvious question is, if this is a language why do men not understand what is being said,…Because Paul is saying, if you go out and speak in a place where everyone is of another language then only God would understand;….In other words if your native tongue is English, chances are someone from China wont understand a word you say, it would be a mystery to him, the language you are speaking is unknown to him….It is only God and the Spirit of God that understands all languages.

Cor 14:3 “But he that prophesieth speaketh unto me to edification, and exhortation, and comfort.”

The only reason for your teaching and prophesying in the first place is to build men up in the faith, to exhort them to live a better life, and to give comfort, consolation where it is needed. The words that you are teaching are the Words of Almighty God. His Word is given under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit.

I Cor 14:4 “He that speaketh in an unknown tongue ( Language ) edifeth himself; but he that prophesieth edifieth the church.”

Again, if I went to China and taught this chapter in English, where no one knows the English language, the only one that would be built up by what I said would be me. However, if I went to a church that spoke English and taught in the English language the entire church would be edified or built up by the same words.

I Cor 14:5 “I would that ye all spake with tongues,( Languages ) but rather that ye prophesied: for greater is he that prophesieth than he that speaketh with tongues,
( Languages ) except he interpret, that the church may receive edifying.”

Paul is saying that he wished that all of his brethren there in Corinth could speak in as many languages as he did. But he would rather they be gifted teachers in the Word of God, than multi linguists unable to teach at all. In other words, if someone that teaches under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit desires to teach in another tongue, do it with the same fervour that you would in your native tongue. If you cannot do this, then find an interpreter that is also filled with the Spirit of God, and have him interpret for you so that the church may receive the edifying when they hear you.

I Cor 14:6 “Now, brethren, if I come unto you speaking with tongues, ( Languages) what shall I profit you, except I shall speak to you either by revelation, or by knowledge, or by prophesying, or by doctrine?”

Paul is saying, if the teaching is not by revelation, knowledge, prophesying, or doctrine, “what shall it profit you,” if no one understands what is being said. Are they speaking to the entire congregation by “revelation, knowledge, prophesying, or doctrine,” or are they babbling unintelligible sounds into the air, in which case no one is edified.

I Cor 14:7 “And even things without life giving sound, whether pipe or harp, except they give a distinction in the sounds, how shall it be known what is piped or harped?”

“distinction in the sounds” A musician plays a sequence of notes in in a specific order, so that the listener can enjoy the song. But if you don’t have the ability to play a certain instrument, say a piano, but sit down anyway and just bang the keys having nothing in order, the sound you produce soon becomes confusing and means nothing to the listener.
Paul is telling us is that if you don't talk in the language that your listeners understand, you are just like the piano giving out a bunch of irritating sounds.

I Cor 14:8 “For if the trumpet give an uncertain sound, who shall prepare himself to the battle?”

Since Biblical times until quite recently the trumpet was used in battle, all soldiers understood the sign and sound of the trumpet. It would be confusing to the soldier if the trumpeter sounded the retreat, when the army was preparing to charge Likewise, it’s necessary for one who speaks in a language, to be understood.
I Cor 14:9 “So likewise ye, except ye utter by the tongue( language )words easy to be understood, how shall it be known what is spoken? for ye shall speak into the air.”

This has to be the easiest of verses to understand, if you have read and understood it for yourself, instead of waiting for your one verse Rev to twist the interpretation for you. Is this the way you “speakers in tongues” glorify our Lord and Saviour ? By speaking nonsense into the air.
I have to stop here, I’m running out of space, remember, don’t trust me or anyone else, check out the Word of God for yourself.
To paraphrase a little ditty I once read somewhere. More souls have been lost in the pulpits of our churches than in all the bars in all the world.
1 Cor 14 has nothing to do with unintelligible babbling and utterances known as
"speaking in tongues"…. Paul is explaining the importance of preaching with clarity and understanding, not the babble and confusion that many churches are doing today, There will be an awesome price to pay for mocking the Holy Spirit, and claiming something came from God's Spirit, when it did not; and the Greek text makes this clear.

Robert.

[OneJoe]

Robert, I must begin by saying well done. I really enjoyed that post and you supported the idea of "tongues" not being some magical babbling very well. Now, there are a couple things I would like to bring up and some things perhaps you can answer; after all, I would particularly like to see your responce after reading your last post. Now, in the strongs, it also says that tongues is "one naturally unacquired". How you do you view it as something not naturally acquired, perhaps not naturally acquired by heritage? Also, I thought about:

Isa 28:11 For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people.

Well, I myself have the strongs and I do tend to use it quite often so I looked up "stammering" and one result is a foriegner. I also looked up "lips" and got the result language. Obviously it would appear to mean a foriegn language is the means by which he will speak to them.

Now, I would like to see how you view:

1Co 13:8 Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.

Now once again, your post was very good to read and makes perfect sense, but how will a language stop? According to 1 Cor 13:8, tongues will stop when that which is perfect is come. Now I believe the bible is the perfect or complete thing spoken of and since it has come, the gift of tongues has stopped. But, since tongues was not naturally acquired and was actually a gift of God, perhaps languages have stopped in the sense of it being a gift? But languages are now learned and not an instant gift of God. After all, on the day of Pentecost, they all spoke in tongues or other languages instantly without first learning them because it was a gift from God. So perhaps languages have stopped in the sense of a gift and now must be learned on our own. So, how do you view this?

I know I have probably offended some of you,… I don’t apologise, truth hurts sometimes. When you’ve checked out the true Word of God for yourself , without twisting the meaning to suite your needs there will be two people your mad at, that will be yourself and the one you have been listening to all these years.

I had to quote you on that. I like that statement..:-)


God bless Robert.

Onejoe

[germanJoy]

Hi again Onejoe :-) Have you realized that you have just took a verse in the bible OUT OF CONTEXT? The whole chapter of 1 Cor. 13 speaks about LOVE, which is referred to as the perfect. This word was never meant to mean any other thing than what has already been spoken about by the author, Apostle Paul, and that was LOVE. Thus, Apostle John confirmed that perfect love casts out fear, because fear involves punishment, and the one who fears is not perfected in love. This means that the one who fears not IS PERFECTED IN LOVE.
LOVE IS PERFECT and that was the emphasis of Paul in his letter to 1Cor. 13 and NOT ANY WRITTEN WORD OR WORDS LIKE THE BIBLE. The perfect spoken here is an ACTION not a written form.

1 Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not LOVE, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.
2 And though I have the gift of aprophecy, and understand all bmysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not LOVE, I am nothing.
3 And though I bestow all my goods to feed the apoor, and though I give my body to be burned, and have not LOVE, it profiteth me nothing.
4 LOVE bsuffereth long, and is ckind; LOVE denvieth not; LOVE vaunteth not itself, is not puffed up,
5 Doth not behave itself aunseemly, seeketh not her bown, is not easily cprovoked, thinketh no evil;
6 Rejoiceth not in ainiquity, but rejoiceth in the btruth;
7 Beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things.
8 LOVE never afaileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.
9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.
10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.
11 When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.
12 For now we see through a aglass, bdarkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.
13 And now abideth faith, hope, LOVE, these three; but the greatest of these is LOVE.


I urgently advise you to change your idea about the bible being the perfect using this verse for this verse never meant it to be like you think it should be!

Prophecies are no longer real today. God is not giving additional revelation. When the bible was COMPLETE, God said no one should add or take away from bible. Also, verse 10 says when that which is "perfect" is come then that which is in part, which is prophecy, etc. would stop. The word "perfect" in Greek means COMPLETE. When that which is "Complete" is come then they shall cease. I do believe the bible is the complete thing spoken of in scripture. Tongues, was given for the self edification of an individual and for a sign to the unbelievers to help build God's church. Now that God's church has been built and the Complete word of God has come, God is no longer using tongues or giving additional revelation.

What Paul wanted to emphasize here is that LOVE is higher than ALL GIFTS. You know my position about tonques, signs and wonders, and we will take them all up in my next post. :-)

God bless you, my dear brother in the Lord!

[Bikn4God]

The discussion over "tongues" has always intrigued me. It amazes me that some ( for the lack of a better word ) "denominations" have based almost their entire doctrine around one topic in the Book of Acts. I'm probably going to take the heat... but I'll speak my piece.

It is my understanding the the Apostle Peter stood before a crowd of people. People of many nationalities. And he spoke the Word of God, and all who heard him, heard that spoken word in their own languages. That was the miracle. ( People even today, can be multi-lingual and translate for others. )

I have heard "babbling" in churches. Supposedly this is someone speaking in a "tongue" of some kind. And for some reason, there is someone supposed to translate this jibberish. I've also been told by some that if one does not speak in these "tongues" you either do not have the "gift of the Spirit" or some go as far as to say one is not even "saved".

I've come to realize, that if you get a group of Christians together, you will have numerous "interpretations" of the Bible. People are going to believe what they happened to be taught. I personally do not "interpret" for the most part. But believe the Bible at it's word.

I believe that Christ died on the cross for the redemption of sins. And that on the third day He rose again. And those who believe in Him, on His name, and what He did on the cross.... and have asked for forgiveness and salvation...you are saved. I don't need "tongues" or "prophecy". I've got Christ. And if it takes more than that, then Christ took a long walk to the cross for nothing.

Just speaking my mind.

CJ
SFFS

[germanJoy]

The discussion over "tongues" has always intrigued me. It amazes me that some ( for the lack of a better word ) "denominations" have based almost their entire doctrine around one topic in the Book of Acts. I'm probably going to take the heat... but I'll speak my piece.

I believe that Christ died on the cross for the redemption of sins. And that on the third day He rose again. And those who believe in Him, on His name, and what He did on the cross.... and have asked for forgiveness and salvation...you are saved. I don't need "tongues" or "prophecy". I've got Christ. And if it takes more than that, then Christ took a long walk to the cross for nothing.
Just speaking my mind.
CJ
SFFS
Hi Bikn4God. Won't you really need "tonques" or "prophecy"? Twelve disciples of John the Baptist (who were not baptized yet in the Holy Spirit) whom Paul met at Ephesus had the NEED of having tonques and prophecies. Paul saw the need of baptizing them in the Holy Spirit which they have never heard of.

1 And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples,

2 He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.

3 And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism.

4 Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.

5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.

6 And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.
7 And all the men were about twelve.

Prophecies and tonques are the only manifestations of the baptism of the Holy Spirit mentioned in the bible. To say that you don't need tonques and prophecy is like saying you do not need the baptism of the Holy Spirit.

[CheeseKing]

I was referring to tongues, spoken on the day of pentacost, btw...

[blueheron32]

Hi germanjoy...:-)

There was a difference between the baptism of John, and the "new covenant" baptism...Johns baptism was normally a baptism unto repentance, a preparation for the coming of the Christ. The exception, I believe would have been the baptism of Jesus...which was in Jesus case a purification rite, indicating the start of his priestly ministry of three and a half years. .

The fact that the disciples of John were baptist were baptised with water again was to illustrate the baptism of the Holy Spirit...it was a type or figure of that Spiritual baptism...performed by God himself, which is the real baptism.. that washes away sin.

The four cases in the new testament, in which supernatural gifts occured are not to be seen as typical, but rather are evidences of the fulfillment of Jesus prophecy that the gospel would go into all the world, beginning at jerusalem then judea, then samaria, and then to the uttermost parts of the world. Those four events fulfilled the four categories that Jesus mentioned..

But prophecy and tongues are not the only manifestations of the Baptism of the Holy Spirit germanjoy.. That event is simply another way of saying a person has become saved..which means the Holy spirit has applied the gospel to a person cleansing him of all sin...

Eph 5:26 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word, Eph 5:27 That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.

And the evidence of that action by the Holy Spirit should not be limited to supernatural signs intended for a different purpose, but rather be seen in the more simple evidences of the Spirits work of transformation in the true believers life...as evidenced by the fruits of the Spirit..

Mat 7:16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
Mat 7:20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
Eph 5:9 (For the fruit of the Spirit is in all goodness and righteousness and truth;
Eph 5:10 Proving what is acceptable unto the Lord.
Eph 5:11 And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them.
Gal 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
Gal 5:23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

There is no law against these evidences of the Holy Spirits presence in our lives germanjoy...:-) unlike the law prohibiting the idea that God is giving additional revelation through a tongue, or a vision or a prophetic utterance of some kind...

Rev 22:18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:
Rev 22:19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

Because God chose to reveal himself in those ways four times germanjoy is no indication that that would be the norm for all times..just as many have been saved, and washed, or baptized by the Holy Spirit without any supernatural sign, but were still just as much baptized by the Holy Spirit as the apostles were on the day of pentecost..

At the same time...we do prophesy...that is we declare the word of God...we preach the gospel to all that will listen...and we speak with new tongues...that is our tongues are no longer used to curse and blaspheme, but God has given us a new message, and a renewed will to shed abroad the wonders of his grace....:-)....a new song of praise, witnessing his wonderful love...By grace you are saved....

your friend...

blueheron32

[OneJoe]

Hi again Onejoe :-) Have you realized that you have just took a verse in the bible OUT OF CONTEXT? The whole chapter of 1 Cor. 13 speaks about LOVE, which is referred to as the perfect. This word was never meant to mean any other thing than what has already been spoken about by the author, Apostle Paul, and that was LOVE. Thus, Apostle John confirmed that perfect love casts out fear, because fear involves punishment, and the one who fears is not perfected in love. This means that the one who fears not IS PERFECTED IN LOVE.
LOVE IS PERFECT and that was the emphasis of Paul in his letter to 1Cor. 13 and NOT ANY WRITTEN WORD OR WORDS LIKE THE BIBLE. The perfect spoken here is an ACTION not a written form.

1 Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not LOVE, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.
2 And though I have the gift of aprophecy, and understand all bmysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not LOVE, I am nothing.
3 And though I bestow all my goods to feed the apoor, and though I give my body to be burned, and have not LOVE, it profiteth me nothing.
4 LOVE bsuffereth long, and is ckind; LOVE denvieth not; LOVE vaunteth not itself, is not puffed up,
5 Doth not behave itself aunseemly, seeketh not her bown, is not easily cprovoked, thinketh no evil;
6 Rejoiceth not in ainiquity, but rejoiceth in the btruth;
7 Beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things.
8 LOVE never afaileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.
9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.
10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.
11 When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.
12 For now we see through a aglass, bdarkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.
13 And now abideth faith, hope, LOVE, these three; but the greatest of these is LOVE.


I urgently advise you to change your idea about the bible being the perfect using this verse for this verse never meant it to be like you think it should be!



What Paul wanted to emphasize here is that LOVE is higher than ALL GIFTS. You know my position about tonques, signs and wonders, and we will take them all up in my next post. :-)

God bless you, my dear brother in the Lord!

Hello Germanjoy, thank you for your reply. I don't see your point entirely. Forgive me, perhaps I'm just missing what your saying. I fail to see how my believing the bible is the perfect thing spoken of in that scripture is out of context. I realize Paul is saying that love abides above all gifts; however, I don't see how love is the perfect thing spoken of. First, as you know I'm sure, the word perfect means complete; therefore, how can love be in part or complete? What has occured or you believe will occur that will make love complete? Chapter 14 verse 1 says to follow after love and desire spiritual gifts so it woujld appear that love and gifts reside together until the perfect thing spoken of has come, then remains faith, hope, and love. It does not appear that love is the perfect thing because love will be one of the three that remain after the perfect thing has come. Also, verses 9-12 would appear to be talking more about knowledge rather than love. Though yes it is clear that love abides above all gifts, a point on knowledge seems to appear here. Verse 9 says we know in part and prophecy in part so their knowledge is in part. There knowlege and prophecy of God's word is in part because because the bible was not yet complete. Verse 10 says when that which is perfect is come, then the part shall be done away. Again, this appears to be saying that the part they have will be done away with when they have the complete law of God. Verses 11-12 also appear to illustrate that because of the part and lack of the entire word of God, it is like looking in a glass darkly or mirror that is not a clear image; however, when we see the complete word of God face to face, then we shall see clearly what God has intended for us to see and we shall know as we are known according to the word of God. And then, once we have the word of God, the part, prophecy, tongues, etc. is done away and we then have the complete or perfect word of God to tell us who we are, how we are to live according to God's will. Jam 1:25 But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed. I hope you understand what I'm saying and aren't confused by this post. I am not always that clear with my choice of words. But when I look at these scriptures, I realize the point is gifts and the importance of love over all. However, knowledge seems to be discussed here in relation to the perfect or complete thing. I will have to close this post for now, but hopefully we can continue this topic and I will post when I have a little more time.

Until next time, May the Lord bless you and keep you!


Onejoe

[germanJoy]

Hi blue... soooo good to hear from you again, my friend. :-)

Our salvation is assured the moment we are indwelt by the Holy Spirit when we got "born-again". Anyone who attempts to ADD a work (whether it be baptism in water or of the Spirit) in our SALVATION which is BY FAITH ALONE, nullifies the SAVING GRACE of God.

Our salvation is solely focused on the WORKS OF CHRIST at the Cross of Calvary which we have believed and received. The baptisms we undergo in water and in the Spirit are our PRIVILEGES (we may or we may not avail it but our salvation does not entirely depend on it) and our BOLD PUBLIC PROCLAMATION that we are in Christ, of Christ, for Christ and belong to Christ. It can be likened to two (2) German citizens, both are Germans, one has a German passport and the other one refuses to have a German passport. The one who has a passport enjoys the privilege of going in and out of Germany while the one who does not have remains in the country. But both are citizens; in the same manner both christians (one is baptized while the other not) are "saved". :-) Unfortunately, not everyone wants to have these privileges and proclamation although they could avail of it.

Just as the act we make if we have ourselves baptized in water does not save us, the baptism of the Holy Spirit is not the basis of our salvation but the empowering of the believer to equip him/her for the WORKS of building God's kingdom in the world where the devil is the prince.

The power of the devil was and still is real and present in this world and even in the heavenlies, there is a continuous battle in the spirit. Therefore there is a need for us to bind and to loose spirits on earth to be able to bind and loose spirits also in heaven confirming the prayer "Thy Will be done on earth as it is in heaven." I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; and whatever you shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven." Matt. 16:19

The baptism of the Holy Spirit occurred many times in Acts not just on the day of Pentecost. Even the tonques as of fire was manifested to other believers at a different time. The tonques as of fire was and is still not a ONE-time event as believed by many christians. And as I began to speak, the Holy Spirit fell upon them, just as He did upon us at the beginning. Acts 11:15

The Holy Spirit baptism was a necessity to enable the disciples to powerfully do ministry works. Note that before the Pentecost, they were already all SAVED including the disciples of John (as they were named disciples) at Ephesus.

To assume that "speaking in tonques" is solely meant as speaking in other foreign earthly language for foreigners/unbelievers to hear and believe is WRONG. The 12 disciples of John at Ephesus spoke in tonques without foreigners around. This proves that tonques was the evidence of the baptism of the Holy Spirit to those who receive it and not for those who hear it. During this time, there were only RECIPIENTS of tonques present and no foreigners. Acts. 19:1-6

1While Apollos was at Corinth, Paul took the road through the interior and arrived at Ephesus. There he found some disciples 2and asked them, "Did you receive the Holy Spirit when[a] you believed?"
They answered, "No, we have not even heard that there is a Holy Spirit."
3So Paul asked, "Then what baptism did you receive?"
"John's baptism," they replied.

4Paul said, "John's baptism was a baptism of repentance. He told the people to believe in the one coming after him, that is, in Jesus." 5On hearing this, they were baptized into[b] the name of the Lord Jesus. 6When Paul placed his hands on them, the Holy Spirit came on them, and they spoke in tongues[c] and prophesied. 7There were about twelve men in all.

God's abundant blessings be upon you, my friend. :)

[Bikn4God]

If you'll re-read what I wrote, I said that some "denominations" base their entire "doctrine" of salvation on "tongues". They claim that if a person has not spoken in tongues, they are not indwelled by the Spirit, and thus not saved.

I do not deny the gift given to the Apostles to speak in other languages that is spoken of in the Book of Acts. I'm merely saying that the "gift of tongues" is not the sole evidence of salvation as some claim.

I was in a church once... a man on the stage pointed to me and another brother in my ministry and told me this story, a "prophecy" that he had claimed God spoke to him in reference to us. I listened. I nodded. And then I "tested" it. My partner condemned me for not believing the man. I said that I believed nothing man said until I tested it. Just because a man says, "God said this and that..." does not make it a prophecy. As it turned out, what the man said did not come to pass. It was false.

There is a true test of prophets in the Bible. I have yet to meet a Biblical "prophet" in my lifetime. Until I do, I will stick to the ones in the Bible who are tried and true. I do not discount prophecies... I just discount those who think they are prophets, but are not.

The Bible speaks of the end times...where even the "elect" will be deceived. I choose not to be deceived.

CJ
SFFS

[OneJoe]

The Bible speaks of the end times...where even the "elect" will be deceived. I choose not to be deceived.

The bible does not say the elect can or will be be decieved, but rather just the opposite.

Mat 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders; insomuch that, IF it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

Notice that verse says that IF it were possible, but it is not possible because the elect of God is a child of God and God does not will his true children to be decieved. God has given his children eyes to see and ears to hear and they will discern the truth of God's word. They will see that false prophet for the wolf in sheeps clothing, as he truely is.

There is a true test of prophets in the Bible. I have yet to meet a Biblical "prophet" in my lifetime. Until I do, I will stick to the ones in the Bible who are tried and true. I do not discount prophecies... I just discount those who think they are prophets, but are not.

As for this statement, I myself will certainly stick with the prophets of the bible also...:-)

God bless bikn

Onejoe

[germanJoy]

What has occured or you believe will occur that will make love complete?
The early believers throughout their whole lives have eagerly waited for the "Perfect" to come. They all realized unless the "Perfect" comes, they remain imperfect in the flesh. Perfection can only be fully materialized on the day of Christ's return since that will be the time when they all become PERFECT, when they see Him FACE TO FACE, when they become like Him (perfect).

Beloved, now we are children of God, and it has not appeared as yet what we shall be ("perfect"). We know that, when He appears, we shall be like Him, because we shall see Him just as He is. 1 John 3:2

You see, everytime the Apostles spoke of "perfect" , they were all referring to the Coming of Christ ("caught up" or modern term rapture in 1 Thes. 4:16-17). Not one of them, especially the writers of the New Testament, ever expected that a book called "bible" will be one day published and distributed all over the world. It is thus obvious that Paul was not referring to a collection of their writings when he spoke about "the perfect that will come" but was referring to something higher, LOVE or the Author of Love, Jesus Christ in His coming.

Chapter 14 verse 1 says to follow after love and desire spiritual gifts so it woujld appear that love and gifts reside together until the perfect thing spoken of has come, then remains faith, hope, and love. It does not appear that love is the perfect thing because love will be one of the three that remain after the perfect thing has come.
Faith and hope should remain even if the bible is complete. Without faith and hope, the bible is INVALID in the life of a believer. That's another argument why "the perfect here" was not meant to be the "bible".

when we see the complete word of God face to face, then we shall see clearly what God has intended for us to see and we shall know as we are known according to the word of God. And then, once we have the word of God, the part, prophecy, tongues, etc. is done away and we then have the complete or perfect word of God to tell us who we are, how we are to live according to God's will.

The bible is just a book, a letter written with ink, a guideline, a collection of writings from men of God inspired by the Holy Spirit. It is not THE REAL THING. It is definitely not "the perfect".

The real thing (where perfection will be manifested) is WE, you and I and all those REDEEMED by the blood of the Lamb. We are the LETTERS OF CHRIST. The New Covenant had made US the living "stones" where God's Word is written. If the world sees us, they see CHRIST in us, they see THE WORD OF GOD in us, they see THE BIBLE in us. The written WORD becomes ALIVE in our beings, in our lives. And this was also true in the lives of the early believers long before the bible was completed.

You are our letter, written in our hearts, known and read by all men; being manifested that you are a letter of Christ, cared for by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God, not on tablets of stone, but on tablets of human hearts.... servants of a new covenant, not of the letter, but of the Spirit; for the letter kills but the Spirit gives life." 2 Cor. 3:3-6

To sum it up, if we LOVE ONE ANOTHER, Christ abides in us. That is why the greatest is LOVE. Love will bring us to UNITY, Jesus will COME AGAIN to marry a UNITED BRIDE. That would be the time when truly THE PERFECT HAS COME. Amen!

[Walter]

Walter, no Russ Welch does not post here at the Christian Chat Forum any longer. He was no longer posting on the last board shortly after you left for a while also. He is as I will say gone and will not be posting here; however, there are many other people like him and I'm sure you will indeed run into many so as the bible says Eph 6:11"Put on the whole armor of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil." Eph 6:13 "Wherefore take unto you the whole armor of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand."


Onejoe

Hey Onejoe,

Good advice. Let us all be soldiers in the Army of the Lord.

I am certainly glad to hear that Mr. Welch is no longer here. I hope he doesn't return under another name. But then, we might just recognize a wolf in a sheepskin. I pray for him.

Walter

[OneJoe]

The early believers throughout their whole lives have eagerly waited for the "Perfect" to come. They all realized unless the "Perfect" comes, they remain imperfect in the flesh. Perfection can only be fully materialized on the day of Christ's return since that will be the time when they all become PERFECT, when they see Him FACE TO FACE, when they become like Him (perfect).

According to this statement you made, that would mean that the perfect thing has yet to come since after all, Christ's second coming has yet to occur. So from that statement, it would seem you also believe that God is still giving additional revelation? That he is still adding to his word? That we should continue to listen to strangers that just appear out of no where and claim God spoke to them? If Christ's second coming will be when the perfect arrives, then prophecy and tongues would still be used, but that is not the case because God was clear that no one adds to his word and i did not see where he excluded himself.

You see, everytime the Apostles spoke of "perfect" , they were all referring to the Coming of Christ ("caught up" or modern term rapture in 1 Thes. 4:16-17). Not one of them, especially the writers of the New Testament, ever expected that a book called "bible" will be one day published and distributed all over the world. It is thus obvious that Paul was not referring to a collection of their writings when he spoke about "the perfect that will come" but was referring to something higher, LOVE or the Author of Love, Jesus Christ in His coming.

Yes, Christ was referred to as perfect; however, so was God's word on several occasions.


Faith and hope should remain even if the bible is complete. Without faith and hope, the bible is INVALID in the life of a believer. That's another argument why "the perfect here" was not meant to be the "bible".

Yes, faith and hope should remain when the bible is complete, just as the scripture says it will remain after the perfect thing. But it does not argue that the bible is not the perfect thing.

Also, answer something for me. I have asked this question before. The bible is clear that we should HOPE and that God's children know the HOPE of his calling.

Heb 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

Faith is the substance of things HOPED for, and the evidence of things NOT seen. So tell me, if Christ's coming is when the perfect arrives, why do we still need to hope? Why do we need FAITH if we see face to face and as the scripture says, faith is the evidence of things not yet seen.

God bless Germanjoy!

Onejoe

[germanJoy]

According to this statement you made, that would mean that the perfect thing has yet to come since after all, Christ's second coming has yet to occur. So from that statement, it would seem you also believe that God is still giving additional revelation? That he is still adding to his word? That we should continue to listen to strangers that just appear out of no where and claim God spoke to them? If Christ's second coming will be when the perfect arrives, then prophecy and tongues would still be used, but that is not the case because God was clear that no one adds to his word and i did not see where he excluded himself.


My answer to this is a big YES and a small no. No, God will not use just any strangers to prophecy or impart revelation knowledge but He will use His servants whom He appointed for the office. The responsibility of every believer as also directed by the Apostles is not to believe everything but to test and to examine every spirit, prophecy, revelation, teaching, even the persons, etc. Thus, we are supposed to believe and follow EXACTLY all the WORDS in the bible (WITHOUT EXCEPTION), to take the Scripture AS IS where we are not allowed to make our own INTERPRETATIONS. The Holy Spirit does not cease inspiring the men of God giving them more and higher revelations, ALL of which just confirms and are in line with the written WORDS of God. Bible contradictions are clear indications of false revelations and prophecies. The BIG YES is that FOR the bible tells us so. God will grant additional authority and prophecies to His servants whom He chose where "signs and wonders" will be performed:

And I will grant authority to my two witnesses, and they will prophesy for twelve hundred and sixty days, clothed in sackcloth. These are the two olive trees and the two lampstands that stand before the Lord of the earth. And if anyone desires to harm them, fire proceeds out of their mouth and devours their enemies: and if anyone would desire to harm them, in this manner he must be killed. They have the power to shut up the sky, in order that rain may not fall during the days of their prophesying; and they have power over the waters to turn them into blood, and to smite the earth with every plague, as often as they desire. Rev. 11:3-6

If we cease to believe prophecies, tonques, etc. JUST because of 1 Cor. 13:10, then we have to GIVE UP believing all other instructions covering the MOST PART of the letters to Corinth and many more letters on prophecies, tonques, etc.

Chapter 14 verse 1 says to follow after love and desire spiritual gifts so it woujld appear that love and gifts reside together until the perfect thing spoken of has come, then remains faith, hope, and love. It does not appear that love is the perfect thing because love will be one of the three that remain after the perfect thing has come.

I had to call your attention since it was you who made the statement (see above) that love, "faith and hope" (the three) remain AFTER the perfect thing has come. And since your view of the perfect is the bible, so you see that faith and hope remains. Since my view of the perfect is Christ's Second Coming, so I see that faith and hope remains not. Now, let us see what it really says:

10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.
13 And now abideth faith, hope, LOVE, these three; but the greatest of these is LOVE.

The word "now" is emphasized telling us that at the present (the time the writer wrote it), the three remains. But when the perfect comes, the partial is done away (referring only not to the gifts but also to faith, hope, and love). But since the passive LOVE is the greatest/the perfect, it is not and can never be done away. That makes the two partial. So if the perfect (obviously not the bible) comes, the active LOVE (Jesus at His coming), faith and hope as well as all the gifts are done away.

The Lord bless your coming in and going out, Onejoe. :-)

[OneJoe]

GermanJoy, we are certainly seeing this differently. First, I don't see where these scriptures were talking about or implys that love is in "part", but rather that knowledge, prophecy, and tongues are in part and when the complete thing comes or has come, then these are no longer used by God. In verse 13, you believe that the word "now" is referring to the present; however, that would not be the case if theses events are taking place in chronological order.

Such as, when the perfect thing comes, then tongues, prophecy, etc. would be done away and then faith, hope, and love remains and we should hope in God, have faith in God, and love God and our brethren; for if our love for our brethren is in "part" then how much more should God love us.

And, these scriptures do seem to imply that after tongues and prophecy have passed away, then faith, hope, and love will remain until the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Notice, you are saying that love is also in part. Your stating that love, prophecy, tongues is all in part and Christ's second coming will be the complete thing. However, notice what the last scripture says.

1Co 13:13 And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.

Now the whole context is on gifts and love, but in verse 13 its says "now abideth" or remains. First, no this would not remain after Christ's second coming, but it would remain AFTER prophecy and tongues has stopped. These scriptures say that love abideth or remains. For it to remain, something else has passed away which is tonges. And to say that prophecy and tongues stops when Christ comes and love continues would make no sense because faith is not needed in heaven.

And I will grant authority to my two witnesses, and they will prophesy for twelve hundred and sixty days, clothed in sackcloth. These are the two olive trees and the two lampstands that stand before the Lord of the earth. And if anyone desires to harm them, fire proceeds out of their mouth and devours their enemies: and if anyone would desire to harm them, in this manner he must be killed. They have the power to shut up the sky, in order that rain may not fall during the days of their prophesying; and they have power over the waters to turn them into blood, and to smite the earth with every plague, as often as they desire. Rev. 11:3-6

Now, you know as well as I do that to "prophecy" means either to obtain additional revelation or to declare the word of God as truth. In this scripture, it would seem logical that the two witnesses were declaring God's word as truth, not bringing additional. They are speaking what God has already spoken and when the time comes, they will be killed for it, just as it is spoken through out the bible that some will deliver us up to be killed or scourged in the synagogoues or churches.

God bless Germanjoy..:-)

Onejoe

[germanJoy]

My dear brother, I agree that faith and hope ceases when the perfect comes (Christ's Second Coming) but love is forever because God is love. The bible cannot be perfect first of all because it is the works of men. The bible in itself has many translations and some have few errouneous translations (that includes King James :-)). How can a mere book be perfect if it has errors? Never! Perfect means perfect, free of error! And that can be brought into completion SOLELY by our Lord Jesus Christ at His Coming when He Himself will PERFECT us, make us complete, glorified bodies, perfect in all things! And even after this pefect comes, LOVE abides because it never ceases, the LOVE OF GOD in us. That is why Paul said and the GREATEST is Love!

Prophecy means both, declare God's Word and obtain new revelations, new things. To cite a vivid example, allow me to relate my own personal experience with God on this. I will make it as short as possible.

While I was working at the office located at the 8th floor of a high-rise building, all of a sudden I heard a voice very vividly saying: "Do not be afraid of a sudden fear nor the onslaught of the wicked when it comes for the Lord will be your confidence and will keep your feet from being caught." I immediately recognized these words to be somewhere in the bible (I was still young in the faith at that time) so I knew a prophecy had just been spoken to me. I bowed myself in prayer and say: "Lord, I know something terrible is going to happen, whatever it is I STAND BY YOUR WORD." About one minute later, the worst earthquake that ever hit Luzon causing many lives occcurred. There were commotions, fear, shoutings, weeping and wailing but I was the only one who remained CALM AND STILL. Why? because there was a prophecy spoken to me before.

You see, that is what prophecy is all about. God reveals His plans to His servants to prepare His servants for something NEW He wants to do! If you call it new revelation, then yes that was for me a NEW REVELATION. God speaks and He fulfills what He says and reveals it through prophecies.

I hope this helps you understand what prophecy is really all about!

God bless my beloved brother in the Lord... :-)

[OneJoe]

My dear brother, I agree that faith and hope ceases when the perfect comes (Christ's Second Coming) but love is forever because God is love. The bible cannot be perfect first of all because it is the works of men. The bible in itself has many translations and some have few errouneous translations (that includes King James :-)). How can a mere book be perfect if it has errors? Never! Perfect means perfect, free of error! And that can be brought into completion SOLELY by our Lord Jesus Christ at His Coming when He Himself will PERFECT us, make us complete, glorified bodies, perfect in all things! And even after this pefect comes, LOVE abides because it never ceases, the LOVE OF GOD in us. That is why Paul said and the GREATEST is Love!

Prophecy means both, declare God's Word and obtain new revelations, new things. To cite a vivid example, allow me to relate my own personal experience with God on this. I will make it as short as possible.

While I was working at the office located at the 8th floor of a high-rise building, all of a sudden I heard a voice very vividly saying: "Do not be afraid of a sudden fear nor the onslaught of the wicked when it comes for the Lord will be your confidence and will keep your feet from being caught." I immediately recognized these words to be somewhere in the bible (I was still young in the faith at that time) so I knew a prophecy had just been spoken to me. I bowed myself in prayer and say: "Lord, I know something terrible is going to happen, whatever it is I STAND BY YOUR WORD." About one minute later, the worst earthquake that ever hit Luzon causing many lives occcurred. There were commotions, fear, shoutings, weeping and wailing but I was the only one who remained CALM AND STILL. Why? because there was a prophecy spoken to me before.

You see, that is what prophecy is all about. God reveals His plans to His servants to prepare His servants for something NEW He wants to do! If you call it new revelation, then yes that was for me a NEW REVELATION. God speaks and He fulfills what He says and reveals it through prophecies.

I hope this helps you understand what prophecy is really all about!

God bless my beloved brother in the Lord... :-)
Well Germanjoy, we will have to agree to disagree on some points and on other points we can agree on, such as Christ is perfect and he is coming again. But as far as our views on 1 Corinthians, we see it quite differently.

Although, when I was talking about the bible being the perfect thing, I wasn't quite clear. I actually meant the complete word of God as in what God actually spoke was pefect and complete. And when he completed giving the last revelation to John then his word to the world was complete and that was when tongues and prophecy passed away. I didn't actually mean the translations were perfect, but only what God originally meant which is of course what we have to do our homework on and find out. But I do firmly believe that God is done granting prophecy because the bible says not to add or take away. So if someone comes along and says "God said this to me" then he is adding to it and God will add unto him the plagues of the bible. So I don't believe that God would contradict his word and send an individual with additional revelation to add to his completed inspired word.

And as far as your story goes where you believe God spoke to you, that is a great story but we would also disagree on the manner of how God spoke to you. Revelation would be something that God speaks to you and either comes true or does not come true; however, in your story you said that God told you not to fear, but you did not say he told you an earthquake would occur. In the bible God spoke directly to people by revelation; however, from the story you explained it would appear that the Holy Spirit which dwelt within you was their to be your comforter and remind you of God's word of reassurence, not that God was speaking to you as he did Abraham, Isaac, etc. And indeed we can rest assured on God's perfect word that he will be true to exactly what he has spoken and inspired. So I would agree that God knew what was going to happen and the Holy Spirit comforted you ahead of time with the words that have already been given in Proverbs 3:26 "For the LORD shall be thy confidence, and shall keep thy foot from being taken." Again, we will be agreeing to disagree, but as always it is great to post with you Germanjoy. Your one of the people I look forward to seeing on here..:-)

God bless you and keep you in his good Grace!

Onejoe

[Robert]

Thank you Joe,

In answer to your first question, "one naturally unacquired". is a language that is not your natural tongue, it is one that you have acquired by learning. So one of the gifts of the Holy Spirit is the ability to be able to learn another language other than the one you were brought up with, so that you can teach someone who is not of your language. But you must be fluent enough in that language that the one listening to you, understands the meaning of every word you speak. Otherwise you must have an interpreter.
When studying I use the actual Strong’s Concordence in book form as you obviously do. However when replying to post etc, while on the web, I often use the The Blue Letter Bible with Hebrew lexicon for sheer speed of access, This sometimes gives additional information that you may not find in the Stong’s,… though not always. I’m telling you this in case you are wondering where I got the definition # 1100. "Glossa, gloce-sah'; a language, (the language or dialect used by a particular people distinct from that of other nations)
.
Joe as to your question on Isa 28:11 “For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people.” I don’t think anyone could understand this by just using this one verse and so as it might take some explaining I would like to get back to it later, but I promise I will respond. I really don’t have a lot of time other than the weekends and even then it’s questionable….. I know,…… you’ve heard it all before….

I Cor 12:31 “But covet earnestly the best gifts: and yet shew I unto you a more excellent way.”
What could be a more excellent way, than any or all of these gift of the Holy Spirit….
Love !!
I Cor 13, is about love. There are many aspects to love, which Paul has just explained.
It does appear however that Paul deviates from the subject somewhat here in verse eight, after the statement “Charity never faileth:” He goes a little deeper. Verses eight and nine allude to a double meaning and are explained in verse ten, but you must take all the verses from eight and including twelve to get the full picture as to what he is trying to convey.
Paul then says: “but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away."
So lets ask the questions one at a time, how can prophecies fail ? Every prophecy in the entire Bible will come to pass, be “fulfilled.” But even though we have been told all truths in the Word of God, some will still be deceived by Satan and so the prophecies will have amounted to nothing, they will have failed during the time of the great apostasy…… Satan comes to deceive the whole world.
Paul then adds: “whether there be tongues, they shall cease;” We know that tongues simply means languages, foreign or otherwise. We certainly wont stop speaking, but we will cease in spreading the Word of God at this time due to the fact that Satan and his demonic hoards will be flooding the world with his lies.
Paul continues with: “whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.” Obviously we won’t become dimwits overnight, so he must be referring to something deeper.
Unless you have partaken of the meat of God’s word your going to be easy pickings for Satan when he comes and although you will have had the knowledge of the truth, his (Satan) appearance and deception is so appealing you will fall for his lies. The little knowledge you did have is worthless and it shall vanish away.” Many will be deceived and worship the false one.
I Cor 13:9 “For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.”
Our minds in this flesh body know very little,…. compared to the vast knowledge of God and the angels it’s miniscule. Although the bible prophecies may be perfect our understanding of them all is only in part and so we are only able to teach others to the point of our own understanding.
I Cor 13:10 “But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.”
Jesus Christ is the only perfect one, and when He returns at the seventh trumpet, we are changed into our spiritual bodies. Everything our minds have not understood in parts will be revealed to us, we will see and understand the entire plan of God, for we will have gained full knowledge. At this time all tongues or languages that exist today will end also and all souls will speak the same language as it was in the beginning, prior to the time of the tower of Babel.
I Cor 13:11 “When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.”
Paul is telling us here that when you are first brought to the knowledge of God, you are like a child, capable only to absorb the milk of His Word. But when you have received salvation and been baptized, you are expected to become more mature and get into the meat of the Word, able to withstand the fiery darts of Satan and his evil spirits. And with love in your heart help others along the way.
I Cor 13:12 “For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.”
In our flesh bodies, we can only see a very small part of that eternal kingdom, even when we have reached maturity in God's Word, the picture we see is still murky. However someday we will see our Lord Jesus Christ face to face, and in our spiritual bodies we will have the spiritual eyes to know and understand everything. Just as God knows every little thing about me, so also will I know those things.
I Cor 13:13 “And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.”
Love is the greatest gift of all the gifts, It is time for true Christians to mature in the Word, and show that love to others, and put others before ourselves. Become an example to those that may come to know the saving power and love of our Lord Jesus Christ.

[OneVoice]

Faith and hope should remain even if the bible is complete. Without faith and hope, the bible is INVALID in the life of a believer. That's another argument why "the perfect here" was not meant to be the "bible".


What the Bible says about itself:
2 Timothy 3:16 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=62&chapter=3&verse=16&version=31&context=verse)
All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness,
2 Timothy 3:15-17 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=62&chapter=3&verse=15&end_verse=17&version=31&context=context) (in Context) 2 Timothy 3 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=62&chapter=3&version=31&context=chapter) (Whole Chapter)

2 Samuel 22:31 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=10&chapter=22&verse=31&version=31&context=verse)
"As for God, his way is perfect; the word of the LORD is flawless. He is a shield for all who take refuge in him.
2 Samuel 22:30-32 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=10&chapter=22&verse=30&end_verse=32&version=31&context=context) (in Context) 2 Samuel 22 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=10&chapter=22&version=31&context=chapter) (Whole Chapter)

Psalm 18:30 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=23&chapter=18&verse=30&version=31&context=verse)
As for God, his way is perfect; the word of the LORD is flawless. He is a shield for all who take refuge in him.
Psalm 18:29-31 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=23&chapter=18&verse=29&end_verse=31&version=31&context=context) (in Context) Psalm 18 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=23&chapter=18&version=31&context=chapter) (Whole Chapter)

Psalm 56:4 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=23&chapter=56&verse=4&version=31&context=verse)
In God, whose word I praise, in God I trust; I will not be afraid. What can mortal man do to me?
Psalm 56:3-5 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=23&chapter=56&verse=3&end_verse=5&version=31&context=context) (in Context) Psalm 56 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=23&chapter=56&version=31&context=chapter) (Whole Chapter)

Proverbs 30:5 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=24&chapter=30&verse=5&version=31&context=verse)
"Every word of God is flawless; he is a shield to those who take refuge in him.
Proverbs 30:4-6 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=24&chapter=30&verse=4&end_verse=6&version=31&context=context) (in Context) Proverbs 30 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=24&chapter=30&version=31&context=chapter) (Whole Chapter)


As for the notion that God's word may become obsolete, that it is not meant for people today right now and in e very generation that has passed and every generation yet to come.

Isaiah 40:8 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=29&chapter=40&verse=8&version=31&context=verse)
The grass withers and the flowers fall, but the word of our God stands forever."
Isaiah 40:7-9 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=29&chapter=40&verse=7&end_verse=9&version=31&context=context) (in Context) Isaiah 40 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=29&chapter=40&version=31&context=chapter) (Whole Chapter)



The bible is just a book, a letter written with ink, a guideline, a collection of writings from men of God inspired by the Holy Spirit. It is not THE REAL THING. It is definitely not "the perfect".



The textual reliability of the Bible is well established in circles of higher education.

You should be able to find a copy of "Evidence that Demands A Verdict" by Josh McDowell in our university library.

In a nutshell,
The Bible is a book impossibly written and assembled.

It consists of 66 books
the authors come from all walks of life; king, fisherman, cup bearer, herdsman, military, tax collector. And more.

The Bible was written by over 40 people in three languages and on three continents.
It is written in different moods. Some joy Some despair.
It is written in war time and in peace.
It contain writings on every controversial topic you an think of and all the authors are in harmony with one another.

The time span of the writing of the Bible is 1500 years.

from your own country, from among authors that you are familiar with, can you choose ten all from the same time, who were of the same mood, same walk of life, same continent, same language, and the same controversial topic?
Do you think they will ALL agree on that topic?
There will be different views and a conglomeration.

And yet the Bible is in perfect harmony.
At no time in the history of the world has man ever been in total harmony with anything.
Oh it is sought and sometimes some strive for it, but is has never been achieved.
Is there any reason, thee fore to consider that MEN could have not only authored the Bible, but also assembled it apart from divine direction and dictation?

You see the Bible is GOD'S OWN word to us.
It there is anything in it that is flawed, incomplete, erroneous, of imperfect in any way whatsoever it stands to reason and fall on logic that if the Bible is found lacking then the one you claim is thee Prefect One can not be so. If His written word is full of errors He can not be God.
If He is lacking in the Sovereignty over His Own Written word, then He can not be God.

Bu God is sovereign and perfectly so.
He is therefore sovereign over His Holt Wop rd, The Bible, and perfectly.

The Bible says of itself that is is complete.



The real thing (where perfection will be manifested) is WE, you and I and all those REDEEMED by the blood of the Lamb. We are the LETTERS OF CHRIST.



no no no...
what I personally know I can NOT know apart from BOTH Christ and His word, the Bible.
The Bible says


Romans 10 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=52&chapter=10&version=31&context=chapter)
11As the Scripture says, "Anyone who trusts in him will never be put to shame."[e (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=52&chapter=10&version=31&context=chapter#fen-NIV-28185e)] 12For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile—the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him, 13for, "Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved."[f (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=52&chapter=10&version=31&context=chapter#fen-NIV-28187f)]
14How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them? 15And how can they preach unless they are sent? As it is written, "How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news!"[g (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=52&chapter=10&version=31&context=chapter#fen-NIV-28189g)]

Paul studied the scripture.
Jesus taught His disciples who were not scholars what was... in themselves
NO!
What was written in the scripture.
As He walked with two men after His resurrection, on the road to Emaes He taught them from... What was in them?
NO What was written ABOUT HIMSELF in the SCRIPTURES.
Steven when he gave testimony or which he as martyred exposed the Pharisees BY THE SCRIPTURES.
If we are Epistles it is because we have the Bible which is the COMPLETE and PERFECT word of God.
We are made complete in Christ Jesus, and He works to Sanctify us all our lives as we walk with Him from where ever we fell on knees to receive Him.

may I also suggest a beautiful book by Hannah Hurnard "HINDS FEET ON HIGH PLACES."
it is a story about a journey of sanctification.

I would recommend tat book under any circumstances.

and you may not have explored these sites, and may find them useful
Please understand also, I don't expect you to take my word for any of this.
The evidence is clear and well provided and no one need ever rely on me for anything when they have GOD'S word to take for it instead.
http://www.allabouttruth.org/who-wrote-the-bible.htm

http://www.russpickett.com/basic/inerr.htm

http://www.carm.org/

[blueheron32]

Hi german joy.......:-)

I think our disagreement here german joy is not that the reality of the Holy Sprtits presence in the life of the believer is required for him to live a life worthy of the salvation he has been given, But whether the coming of the Holy Spirit upon the one chosen for salvation will resemble those events we see described in the book of acts, today, as it was then. And the answer I believe is, No.

Those events were intended to convey a message to first of all the Jews. They believed that salvation belonged to them. That they as a people were Gods chosen people, and that those of the nations were outsiders, outcasts, unclean. The Holy Spirit was first poured out upon the them in Jerusalem, rrevealing to them the nature of Gods presence with them. No longer would the shekinah glory of God, typified by the fiery pillar at night and the cloud by day, be confined to a tabernacle or temple made with hands..but it would dwell in and upon the people of God as the went into all the world with the gospel to every nation.

We see an indication of that in the first event on pentecost as the disciples spoke in tongues, so that all the nations represented there heard the gospel in their own language...already the gospel was going to the nations. They should have seen it there, but God did not stop there..he continued to hammer home that fact to the jewish christians that Gods relationship with the gentiles would be the same as with them..He would save them also, and the nature of his salvation, and the presence of the Holy Spirit would be identical. So in four instances he provided supernatural signs to confirm to them that there was no difference between jew and greek or samaritan or any one in all the world who would become saved by the sending forth of the gospel....

That does not mean it was Gods intent, that the supernatural sign would continue beyond those examples. The lesson had been taught sufficiently, the need of the outward manifestation of the miracle was no longer necessary, nor should it be sought after...With or without the outward evidence of the miracle, the miracle is the same.. still a miracle. The very reality that God the Holy Spirit indwells or takes up residence in his people, each one personally...is a miracle, beyond comprehension. Why seek a sign....2Co 5:7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight:)

Also, Jesus himself said...it is an evil and adulterous generation that seeketh after a sign..

It may surprise you, but I also agree with your statement that speaking in foreign languages is not the only manifestation of the gift of tongues.. Although I think in ephesus it was probably the case that they did..although it doesnt specifically say so...

I believe the tongues spoken of in the corinthian churches, was a different type of tongue...one that was not of man... but I also believe that gift has come to an end...perhaps you would like to disagree...:-)

your friend
blueheron32

[blueheron32]

Robert said...


"The word, unknown is in italics signifying that the original Greek manuscripts did not contain this or any such word. It was added by the translators in an attempt to be more informative."

You are correct Robert, the word unknown does not appear in the original, and probably should not be there...However that does not change the possibility that this tongue spoken of here in corinthians was a tongue that did not come from among the languages of men. Even if the word glossa is used, and it is normally used to refer to a language of men, it would be the word one would usually expect to find refering to a language not from men.

1Co 14:2 For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.

This verse seems clear to me to be saying that the tongue paul is refering to is not a tongue men can understand. It says the speaker is not speaking to "men" but to God. It also says NO man understands him, whch strongly implies that this tongue present in the church of corinth is a language not known among men....it cannot be understood by any man, with the exception that God gives to the speaker or to another the ability to understand...in the spirit he speaks mysteries...

This does appear to be a tongue unknown to men... unlike the other times in acts where the tongues mentioned were likely all in languages known by different ethnic groups...

blueheron32

[kennyman2836]

I hear that tongues is Gods language and ive heard it spoken but some people claim its of the devil...however its a langauge that the devil cant understand and when people dont really know how to pray for something they pray in tongues. So i guess i have two questions actually...one is it wrong to speak in tongues and two is the gift of tongues available to everyone and that we should just ask for it? Please give me some scriptures to go along with ur thoughts on this topic...
27Now you are the body of Christ, and each one of you is a part of it. 28And in the church God has appointed first of all apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then workers of miracles, also those having gifts of healing, those able to help others, those with gifts of administration, and those speaking in different kinds of tongues. 29Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Do all work miracles? 30Do all have gifts of healing? Do all speak in tongues[d]? Do all interpret? 31But eagerly desire[e] the greater gifts.
And now I will show you the most excellent way.

[Robert]

Hello blue, …….it’s been a while.

I Cor 14:1 “Follow after charity, and desire spiritual gifts, but rather that ye may prophesy.”
Most read right over this first verse, but it’s important it sets the subject. Here Paul is saying, love is the greatest of these gifts, but if you desire other gifts from The Holy Spirit it is best to prophesy.
Now we know that the word “unknown” shouldn’t be there and where he says speaketh we have to remember the subject “prophesy.” As chapter thirteen was about love, so this chapter is undeniable about the gift of “prophesy.” Strong’s Greek dictionary #4395. “propheteuo, prof-ate-yoo'-o; from 4396, to foretell events, divine, speak under inspiration, exercise the prophetic office: to teach” if you have been blessed with this gift you are obliged to speak under the divine guidance from the Word of God. not to babble from your own mind, but to reveal God's Word to others exactly as it is written. The word “mysteries.” Greek for 3466 musterion {moos-tay'-ree-on} hidden thing, secret, mystery. As given in the Greek text is “divine secrets” so why would he be speaking or teaching in divine secrets? Is there anywhere in the Bible where any mysteries spoken of, have not been reveal by the Word of God itself ? Did God not say for I have fore told you all
things ? The purpose of The Holy Spirit is to help us understand the Word of God, ….to reveal the “message,”…. not to hide it,…. and the revelation is to be for everyone, not a select few. So we continue verse two knowing that the inference is on prophecy and the connotations to “he that speaketh” is one who The Holy Spirit has granted the gift of prophecy. Continuing from verse one:

I Cor14:2 “For he that speaketh (prophesy teaches) in a tongue (language) speaketh (prophesy teaches) not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit (Holy Spirit) he speaketh (prophesy teaches) mysteries.” (divine secrets)

You say that:…. “This verse seems clear to me to be saying that the tongue Paul is referring to is not a tongue men can understand. It says the speaker is not speaking to "men" but to God. It also says NO man understands him,”…..
So if I understand this correctly using your interpretation that would mean that:…. Whoever is speaking (prophesying teaching) in this tongue (language) be it foreign or otherwise would be speaking (prophesying teaching) directly to God, for as you say “NO man understands him,”…. hmm,… I don’t think God would be too impressed with someone (prophesying teaching)… Him,… if indeed babbling were prophecy…….God is the prophecy!!!!! Of course blue I know you would never think of such a thing, but in essence that is the way your interpretation reads, and that’s why I disagree with it.
You continue:….. “which strongly implies that this tongue present in the church of corinth is a language not known among men....it cannot be understood by any man, with the exception that God gives to the speaker or to another the ability to understand...in the spirit he speaks mysteries…”

The implication of it being translated or the need for an interpreter isn’t evident in this verse I Cor14:2 nor is it found until tree verses later, whereby the word “tongues” is no longer over shadowed with the translators injected word “unknown,.” and by which time, when you’ve arrived at I Cor14:5 it is abundantly clear what Paul is speaking about. As for “howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.” Paul is asking a question and simply means: how is it ? if The Holy Spirit is in you, how come your speaking something that is hidden,,, “mysteries.” ?
We know The Holy Spirit does not hide anything from us. It is sent from God to help us understand, not confuse….. It may fit your interpretation blue, but not Paul’s.
I Cor14:2.… is the first of the “DON’T” do it this way admonishing from Paul, of which this chapter has many.
I have also heard that this applies to a special kind of prayer, well Jesus told us how to pray too didn’t He, in Matt 6: and in Matt 6:5 He made it quite clear that we were not to make a public spectacle of ourselves.
So I have to say I disagree with your reasoning and stand by my previous post. There are many on both sides of the fence, each must chose for themselves. In the meanwhile take care blue.

Robert.

[germanJoy]

And as far as your story goes where you believe God spoke to you, that is a great story but we would also disagree on the manner of how God spoke to you. Revelation would be something that God speaks to you and either comes true or does not come true; however, in your story you said that God told you not to fear, but you did not say he told you an earthquake would occur. In the bible God spoke directly to people by revelation; however, from the story you explained it would appear that the Holy Spirit which dwelt within you was their to be your comforter and remind you of God's word of reassurence, not that God was speaking to you as he did Abraham, Isaac, etc. And indeed we can rest assured on God's perfect word that he will be true to exactly what he has spoken and inspired. So I would agree that God knew what was going to happen and the Holy Spirit comforted you ahead of time with the words that have already been given in Proverbs 3:26 "For the LORD shall be thy confidence, and shall keep thy foot from being taken." Again, we will be agreeing to disagree, but as always it is great to post with you Germanjoy. Your one of the people I look forward to seeing on here..:-)

God bless you and keep you in his good Grace!

Onejoe
It is all right to disagree on minor points, Onejoe (a very normal thing for human minds :-) ) I used the "Earthquake" example because of the Word of God I heard before the tragedy. All right, I have many stories to tell about my personal walk with the Lord. If it does not convince you then allow me to relate another one. It was the scheduled day of my mother's burial where the Lord led me to fast and pray. A heavy "storm" was forecasted for the whole day. At 4:00 A.M., the Lord woke me up and said: "Child, do you see and hear the heavy windblow and rainfall?" Then I replied: "Lord, how could this be? My mother had served You diligently and today we are going to bury her." He again spoke: "Today I will shut the sky and stop the rain at the time of your mother's burial. Then all the people will know that I have shown her favor." From that time onwards (from 4:00 A.M.) until 2:00 P.M., a very heavy rainfall (no sign of sunshine) and a gloomy weather covered the heavens. All the relatives were full of worries while I kept praising and worshipping the Lord because I was the only one who knew He will perform a miracle. My sisters did not understand my joy but I kept on telling them what I have heard from God. At exactly 2:00P.M., the moment we got off the car when we arrived at the cemetery, the Lord stopped the heavy rain and brought forth the sun. My mother was buried on a very sunny day instead of a stormy day. That was for me the greatest miracle for the Lord showed me He cares A LOT for His children. Amen! :-)

[blueheron32]

Robert...

I really dont find myself disagreeing with too much of what you have said...I think chapter 14 is as you say, about prophesy..but it is not limited to prophesy, it is also a comparison showing the superiority of prophesy as it is used to edify within the church, or among believers. But still I think verse two as it describes the tongue being used is not describing a tongue normally understood by an ethnic group of men. but is a heavenly language..

Chapter 13 is about love, but it also gives a bit of information about this tongue that was present in the corintian church....it says..."though I speak with the tongues of men and of "angels",,, again we see two different categories of tongues...there were the known languages of men....and then he mentions the tongues of angels. What could that be but a tongue unknown to man, as a language of man.

At the same time I dont believe it is proper to call that "unknown" tongue, babbling. It was a language understood by God. It was uttered under the direction of the Holy Spirit. So it was not a nonsense tongue. It was a supernatural gift, especially granted to the church in corinth, and I believe nowhere else. Neither do I believe this "gift" continued after the canon of the Bible was completed. Those tongues we see today, I believe are a caricature of that gift, under demonic control, but also a judgment of God poured out upon those who are not satisfied with the Bible alone and in its entirety as the divine word of God, but are looking for something that appeals to their fleshly lusts.

As you, I also believe that to prophesy is the means by which God intends for us to take the gospel into all the world. To prophesy is to preach the word, to declare the word of God the bible...the bible the whole bible and nothing but the bible. We are not to look for additional revelation of any kind, but to be satisfied with that wonderful gift God has given to us, the Bible.

It is curious to me why God gave so much space to this tongue phenomenon taking place in corinth. He had a reason, and I believe it was to put it in prominent display as a test to see if Gods people would be faithful followers of his word, or if they would seek after something else to satisfy their lusts...I think the answer is obvious, they have failed the test and are running after the forbidden fruit...to their destruction.

blueheron32

[Robert]

Hello blue,

PHEW !!… You had me worried there for moment…..As we have never discussed this subject before, it appeared to me that you were coming down on the side of “speaking in tongues,” as we understand it today in some of the churches. The babbling I reference too, was not to the subject in Cor 14:2 but to them that are, as you say, appealing to their fleshly lusts. …..Just wanted to clarify.

Cor 13:1 “Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.”

The word “though” in this context means “suppose or What if, etc.” It is a supposition, not a fact. Paul is saying suppose I knew every thing there is to know, What if I could speak all the different languages of men and suppose that I could even speak the language of the angels, what good would that do me in the eyes of God, for without “charity” I am no more than wind chimes or such, tinkling in the wind.
With the exception of these two words “of angels” which I think you are miss understanding. Paul never claimed to speak in anything like the “languages of angels.”….. It was merely a hypothetical statement made in order to prove a point……….. The subject is “LOVE.”

I Cor 13:2 “And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing.”

And though , supposition again, as Paul begins to exaggerates to make his point, one example is, he says he has ALL knowledge. Did Paul understand the vast knowledge say, of the universe and the elements that go to make it up. No! only God has ALL knowledge.
So again Paul’s statement is hypothetical and is saying, I could have all these gifts, but without having love in my heart, I am nothing. ……….The subject is “LOVE.”


I Cor13:3 “And though I bestowed all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned , and have not charity, it propheteth me nothing.”

Here Paul states “though I give my body to be burned,” Well we all know Paul was beheaded in Rome. So the statement “my body to be burned,” is yet a further example in the form of hypothetical exaggerations to prove a point, that being without…. “charity,” all other gifts are worthless. …………The subject is “LOVE.”
As for the rest of your post……I agree..

Robert.

[Redeemed777]

Ask and you shall recieve according to the will of God
Look at ACTS chapter 2 (DAA Holy SPIRIT COMInG DoWN) woooooooo
put your trust in God and he will perpare you for what you need
the bird in the air are fed and the flowers are clothed how much more will the lord take care of you?
and Tougues is not the Devil piriod
i mean really the pharasies said the John the babtist had a devil because he didnt eat
and Jesus ate and drank and they called him a gluttonous man
man jesus loves you
jees I love this web site!!!! woooooooooooooooo
love

[blueheron32]

Yes Robert..:-) I kind of got the impression in your post that you might have thought something like that....so I thought I should respond and clarify that...:-) If you had read some other posts of mine on that subject, you would not have had a question...for sure if you had read some of the responses to my posts onthe subject...lol....God bless...I will be posting more...sigh....so little time...:-)

blue...

[blueheron32]

"and Tougues is not the Devil piriod"

Hi redeemed...:-)

So tongues is not of the devil at all...??? The fact is that virutally every pagan, religion, those that are plainly not of God, but of satanic and demonic origin...have some manifestation of speaking in tongues. prayer languages, trances, falling over backwards...etc. the satanic versions of speaking in tongues are virtually identical to those examples taking place in the churches today....I suspect if a "christian" tongue speaker witnessed such displays of pagan tongues, he would be convinced that he was witnessing the same gift as he himself had...

The charismatic movement is the greatest unifier of denominations in the church today...Even though churches have doctrinal positions that are in complete opposition to each other ...yet they all speak in tongues..., so they must be brothers and sisters in christ...after all they have the same gift...Catholics and evangelicals and baptists and lutherans and presbyterians, and pagans, and mormons, the list is endless...:-) they all speak in tongues...they must all have the same spirit... ...

Mat 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

Mar 13:22 For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect.

blueheron32

[Deaira]

Blessing to you.... Godsent
Good ?'s

1.Tongues are a special communication between man & God, where it becomes a personal private conversation even if there's someone else around. (EX: if i speak english, u speaks french, and we come upon a person that speaks creole (similar to french) having a personal, very interesting conversation. no matter how much we try to overhear, or follow along we wont be able to understand what's been said, even the person that speaks creole)

2. remember everythang God does the devil tries to duplicate, which means
YES there's tongues of good & evil

3. Yes, its true once we began to speak in tongues, there's time we dont know what to pray for or how to pray. The Holy spirit (the comforter) begins to speak for us.. it's called utterance.

4. All depend on which tongues you speak..Good "no its not wrong" Evil "yes"

5. The gift of tongues are available to whoever desires it. Remember God gives us the desires of our heart, if were living and following his command's

SCRIPTURES: acts 2:4; 1 Cor 12:10; 1 Cor 14: verses 4,14,22,2

[Rylee]

1.Tongues are a special communication between man & God, where it becomes a personal private conversation even if there's someone else around.

So is prayer, right?


5. The gift of tongues are available to whoever seeks it and desires it.

If it's God's will.


remember God gives us the desires of our heart, if were living and following his commandments.

I live for God and follow his commandments, so why haven't I received the million dollars I've been praying for? My point is that God won't always grant selfish requests, in other words, requests that we're asking to benefit ourselves. Also, God won't grant us something if it's not good for us. God knows what's best, and if we say that we want something and we don't get it, He has a good reason why.

[vivacious]

I hear that tongues is Gods language and ive heard it spoken but some people claim its of the devil...however its a langauge that the devil cant understand and when people dont really know how to pray for something they pray in tongues. So i guess i have two questions actually...one is it wrong to speak in tongues and two is the gift of tongues available to everyone and that we should just ask for it? Please give me some scriptures to go along with ur thoughts on this topic...

Tongues is not wrong and is not of the devil. Tongues or the Holy Ghost is for everyon. Act 2:38-39 Then Peter said unto them Repent, and be baptized everyone of you in the name of Jesus Christ fro the remission of sins, and ye shall recieve the gift of the Holy Ghost.
For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many ad the Lord our God shall call.
Speaking in tongues is the evidence of the Holy Ghost and it is for everyone.

[hisway]

Amen

[germanJoy]

Amen too, hisway and vivacious!

1 And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples,

2 He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.

3 And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism.

4 Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.

5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.

6 And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.

7 And all the men were about twelve.



Sadly, today there are also still many christians who like John's disciples in this story have not been baptized in the Holy Ghost (not because they have not heard but because either they refuse to believe on this kind of baptism or they are afraid to receive something from the devil). But we all love them and we pray for them. :-) Jesus advised us about asking something good from the Father:

8
For everyone who asks, receives; and the one who seeks, finds; and to the one who knocks, the door will be opened.
9
Which one of you would hand his son a stone when he asks for a loaf of bread, 5 (In other words, which one of you would hand his son the evil spirit when he asks for the Holy Spirit?)
10
or a snake when he asks for a fish?
11
If you then, who are wicked, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your heavenly Father give good things to those who ask him In other words, if you as a wicked earthly father would never give something evil to your children, why do you expect the Holy Father to give the devil to those who ask Him? THINK ABOUT THAT!!!

Is the gift of the Holy Spirit good? Is the speaking in tonques good? OH! YES for the bible says so. Then, why doubt the heavenly Father's ability to give us the Holy Spirit's gift and not the evil spirit? Is our relationship with the Father based on the works of Jesus Christ or on the works of the devil?

"According to your faith, it will be done unto you."

May the Father of glory fill all those who love and adore His Son Jesus Christ with the good and perfect gifts of the Holy Spirit!!! Amen!

[Redeemed777]

shes right like i said before God will equip you with the things you need in due season. And really if we get tounges and just start useing it to get attention from others. God knows the begining from the end and he will know how you use the gifts of the spirit.
And if any of you havent noticed there is a reason for everything and when God gives you a gift of the spirit its not of yourselfs but a gift from God and our very perpose is to glorify God and go unto the world preaching the gospel to the most utter places(which brings him glory though the salvations)
love

[Godsent]

Amen too, hisway and vivacious!

1 And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples,

2 He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.

3 And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism.

4 Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.

5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.

6 And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.

7 And all the men were about twelve.



Sadly, today there are also still many christians who like John's disciples in this story have not been baptized in the Holy Ghost (not because they have not heard but because either they refuse to believe on this kind of baptism or they are afraid to receive something from the devil). But we all love them and we pray for them. :-) Jesus advised us about asking something good from the Father:

8
For everyone who asks, receives; and the one who seeks, finds; and to the one who knocks, the door will be opened.
9
Which one of you would hand his son a stone when he asks for a loaf of bread, 5 (In other words, which one of you would hand his son the evil spirit when he asks for the Holy Spirit?)
10
or a snake when he asks for a fish?
11
If you then, who are wicked, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your heavenly Father give good things to those who ask him In other words, if you as a wicked earthly father would never give something evil to your children, why do you expect the Holy Father to give the devil to those who ask Him? THINK ABOUT THAT!!!

Is the gift of the Holy Spirit good? Is the speaking in tonques good? OH! YES for the bible says so. Then, why doubt the heavenly Father's ability to give us the Holy Spirit's gift and not the evil spirit? Is our relationship with the Father based on the works of Jesus Christ or on the works of the devil?

"According to your faith, it will be done unto you."

May the Father of glory fill all those who love and adore His Son Jesus Christ with the good and perfect gifts of the Holy Spirit!!! Amen!
Amen to everyone of yall that agrees with my thoughts on tongues and for those that dont im sorry just be careful that u obey the commandment stated in 1 Corinthians 14:39-Wherefore, brethren, covet to prophesy, and forbid not to speak with tongues.

[Godsent]

Ok let me make one thing clear before i put up this verse...when you are saved the spirit comes upon u and when u recieve tongues you are filled with the spirit such as stated in Epehesians 5:18-20-And do not be drunk with wine, in which is dissipation, but be filled with the Spirit, speaking to on another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord, giving thanks always for all the things to God the Father in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ..

[Godsent]

Ok let me make one thing clear before i put up this verse...when you are saved the spirit comes upon u a