What's All This Talk About Baptism???

[charlesj]

Not too long ago an author wrote a book on baptism called The Water that Divides.
The title is appropriate given today’s religious climate with some people talking as if it were the most important thing in the Bible and others who think it should be carried out but if it isn’t there’s no great loss.
Some dismiss it altogether as not worthy of discussion.
Some insist that baptism is part of God’s bringing the sinner into saving union with Christ (I am one of those who believe that) and others that it’s an ordinance you attend to after you have entered Christ but if you don’t attend to it there’s no great loss. In light of the New Testament and 2,000 years of church history this is an astonishing stance for believers in the Christ to take.
Some think because salvation is altogether by God’s generous grace (and it certainly is!) that baptism can safely be ignored. They don’t get this from the New Testament, which strenuously and tirelessly proclaims that salvation is altogether of the gracious God and still calls all nations to be baptized into the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit (Matthew 29:19 and see Acts 2:38, 19:5 and 22:16).
Some think because salvation is entirely by grace that baptism can’t be part of the coming to Christ to be saved. But the New Testament insists that salvation is entirely by God’s grace and it still says to people who want to be saved, “Be baptized!” for the forgiveness or washing away of sins and it still insists that baptism initiates the trusting and penitent sinner into the Christ (Romans 6:3 and Galatians 3:27).
There is no need to and it is profoundly false to make baptism all-important (only God is all-important) but the New Testament offers no such dilemma. Baptism’s importance is no more and no less than the New Testament shows it to be. Anxious to prove their point some people talk of nothing else but baptism and that’s tragic. The New Testament talks about it easily and often but it doesn’t make it the be-all or end-all of proclamation or even the sinner’s response. It doesn’t apologize for calling people to submit to it who want to belong to Christ but then it didn’t need to. Those who wanted to find peace with Christ asked what to do, they were told and they did it and everyone rejoiced in the saving grace of a generous and forgiving Lord.
Part of the reason there is no heavy stress on baptism in the New Testament is because nobody ever dreamed of arguing about it. If people didn’t argue about it today we could talk about it and call for it as part of the coming to Christ as easily and naturally as they did in the New Testament. I confess it irks me more than a little to hear baptism stressed to the point almost of tedium. But it annoys me a bit also to hear people dismiss God’s command and wonder why others talk about it so much. If there was more humble submission to an explicit command of God that the New Testament relates to forgiveness, salvation and union with Christ maybe we’d hear less going on and on about baptism.
It should make us ponder our belief and practice when a gentleman understandably feels the need to write a book on baptism called The Water that Divides when in point of fact Paul saw it in a precisely opposite way. He saw it as water that unites. In Galatians 3:26-27 he assures the Galatians that they were all children of God by faith because (for, the Greek gar) when they were baptized they entered by faith into Christ and clothed themselves with Christ so that there was no longer anything to divide them. The distinctions that were used to keep them apart, sexism, racism, elitism had all been neutralized in Christ Jesus.
So, in Paul’s teaching, and he knew more about grace and God’s generosity than anyone before or since, baptism didn’t divide, it protested everything that did divide us one from another. The man or woman, girl or boy that by faith is baptized into the reconciling Christ defies all those social and ethical differences that work to keep us apart. We can imagine what it felt like to Paul when he personally on one of those perhaps rare occasions baptized someone into Christ. Looking at it with his eyes, God at that moment, via Paul and the person now coming to Christ, was once more denouncing all that keeps humans apart from him and from one another. When he baptized someone into Christ Paul was tearing down partitions and rehearsing the truth that in Christ walls stronger than granite were destroyed.
He could have said that without mentioning baptism (he said it in other places without mentioning baptism) but the fact is that he mentioned baptism here! The Bible and life teaches us that our life with God is inlaid with many rites and actions that we don’t fully understand. And there’s something fearfully high-handed about puny little preachers whose life is a vapor and whose learning is fragmentary at best urging people to pay little or no attention to God’s word on this matter. I’d urge anyone who wants to give their life to Christ or anyone who has loved the Christ always but hasn’t yet been baptized as the New Testament lays it out to prayerfully reflect on the scriptures about this matter of baptism and act accordingly.

I’m acquainted with a godly, prayerful and God-centered man in the New Testament who received God’s personal word of approval. God sent him a preacher who would inform him how he could come to God in and through Jesus Christ. The preacher began to speak and God interrupted the proceedings by sending the Holy Spirit on the man and his whole family. If there was ever a man who didn’t need to be baptized there we have him. But that’s not how Peter saw it. He commanded Cornelius to be baptized in the name of the Christ and he insisted that it was Cornelius’ privilege as well as due response. The whole story’s in Acts 10 and into 11.

How dare we say to God-loving and Christ-believing people that they don’t need to be baptized in his name?

Who do we think we are? God?

[OneJoe]

Hello Charles, I am curious about one statement you made. You said:

"Some insist that baptism is part of God’s bringing the sinner into saving union with Christ (I am one of those who believe that) and others that it’s an ordinance you attend to after you have entered Christ but if you don’t attend to it there’s no great loss."

So you believe "that baptism is part of God's bringing the sinner into saving union with Christ"? Do you believe a person can be saved without baptism of water? Surely we can both agree that baptism of the Holy Spirit is required to enter the kingdom of heaven; however, can we enter heaven w/out water baptism? If you believe we can then there is no need to be detailed in your reponce unless you would like to be; however, if you believe the answer is no then I would like you to be very detailed as to why you believe this.

Also, if a person must be baptized in water to get into heaven, then what happens to the millions of babies and children that die w/out water baptism? Do they have no hope of salvation? And please don't give the age of accountability doctrine which i already know is completely unbiblical and is like a plague spreading the world. I am asking because if you believe a person can not get into heaven w/out water baptism then I am curious if your responce about babies will be biblically founded or based on yet another false doctrine that we must be of age to sin. Now, as I have told others, I am not saying that water baptism isn't biblical nor am I saying not to get it done. That is up to the individual what they do. But I'm curious if believe we can still enter heaven w/out it since under certain situations people are not baptized in water, such as if they die unexpectedly, or young children die, etc. By the way, yes I have been baptized in water though I do believe that had I not been, I could still have been saved by God.

May the Lord bless you and keep you!

Onejoe

[OneVoice]

Hello Charles, I am curious about one statement you made. You said:

"Some insist that baptism is part of God’s bringing the sinner into saving union with Christ (I am one of those who believe that) and others that it’s an ordinance you attend to after you have entered Christ but if you don’t attend to it there’s no great loss." ....
Do you believe a person can be saved without baptism of water?





May the Lord bless you and keep you!

Onejoe

Hi Joe.
It is amazing why is believed. I have heard it said and repeat often, that Satan is no more busy anywhere than his in God's own house.
I wonder if you have ever heard the statistics for ho many churches and preachers refute foundational Biblical doctrines necessary for salvation.
It's scary!
I once heard Joe Stowel recount a story of a seminary professor who was NOT a believer and who was teaching a Bible History class (I think that was the class) He asked if thee were any in the class who did not believe the Bible was true and the word of God.
Several hands went up.
He asked one student why he was in seminary of he didn't believe any of it.
The student answered "There's big bucks in the God Racket."

My Friend that is what we are up against.
But God's word stands on it's own, for itself, in validation and verification.
So to contribute to the discussion for outward acts of what has already occurred inwardly by the Holy Spirit here is

Luke 23 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=49&chapter=23&version=31&context=chapter)
38There was a written notice above him, which read:|sc THIS IS THE KING OF THE JEWS.

39One of the criminals who hung there hurled insults at him: "Aren't you the Christ? Save yourself and us!"
40But the other criminal rebuked him. "Don't you fear God," he said, "since you are under the same sentence? 41We are punished justly, for we are getting what our deeds deserve. But this man has done nothing wrong."
42Then he said, "Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom.[f (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=49&chapter=23&version=31&context=chapter#fen-NIV-25968f)]" 43Jesus answered him, "I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise."

Jesus said "I and the Father are One." He also said, in effect, "The Son can do nothing apart from the Father." And last we may know by irrefutable and consistence example in character and deed, that God has never failed to keep a promise of fulfill anything He said he would fulfill.
That established how could we ever comet to the conclusion that Baptism was a saving act?

The thief on the cross next to Jesus was clearly not baptized.
Yet he fulfiller all the true requirement for being saved.
He confessed his sines when he said "we are punished justly.." e confessed with hos mouth the Jesus was Lord when he asked to be remembered when Jesus came into His kingdom, which is Heaven. And be believed in his heart when he said Jesus had done nothing wrong to deserve to die, and believed He was Lord.

And Jesus promised him heaven right there hanging on the cross.
This is a beautiful picture of God's saving grace and the salvation of Christ.

But we can go to the old testament and look for this same evidence.
Enoch, Abraham, Moses, Elijah.
Jesus told "doubting" Thomas "You believe because you have seem. Blessed are those who believe with pout seeing.
Now as modern Christians we believe with out seeing WITH Legally Historical evidences behind us.
But these patriarchs of the old testament, WOW what a tremendous faith!
To not only to have believed without seeing, by to believe a thousand years before Christ would be seem! And for their faith in the Lord Jesus before His parents-to-be would be told His name, and before the prophet Isaiah would reveal He would be called Immanuel (Isa. 7:14)

But you know there are just as many who will deny salvation to the un baptized (and specifically the un-dunked) as would condemn the patriarchs o the Old Testament for lack of a ceremonial bathing as well as untimely birth before the promise was fulfilled and ever consider that they DID believe and place all faith in the Messiah as a promise yet to come, and having more faith with less proof.

Perhaps the greatest argument against baptism being a saving act, is that we can NOT DO anything by which we may be saved

Romans 11:6 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=52&chapter=11&verse=6&version=31&context=verse)
And if by grace, then it is no longer by works; if it were, grace would no longer be grace.

Ephesians 2:8 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=56&chapter=2&verse=8&version=31&context=verse)
For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—
Ephesians 2:7-9 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=56&chapter=2&verse=7&end_verse=9&version=31&context=context) (in Context) Ephesians 2 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=56&chapter=2&version=31&context=chapter) (Whole Chapter)


I have some though on the unbaptized infants, infanct murdered unborn (which happened a lot in the Old Testament a the hands of the Assyrians who would split pregnant women open and rip the unborn babies from the womb and kill them. )
and some verses I have heard given in support of both our eternal sin nature which ONLY Christ can deliver us from.
As well as the verses that support the claim God has on infant souls.
I will do that on a separate post.

[not4gotton]

:) Amen I agree..we must be baptized in Jesus Name

[OneVoice]

<b>
... what happens to the millions of babies and children that die w/out water baptism? Do they have no hope of salvation? May the Lord bless you and keep you!

Onejoe

Hi Joe. This is more thought of the questions you have asked. I know you are provoking thought meant to direct to God's absolute truth.

To that end I offer the following contribution. These things are results of research and consideration and scripture reading demanded to verify or refute all I have heard on the matter.
The topic demands an answer to the question &quot;Will God in deed damn an infant, unsaved, unconfessing, anabaptized, into Hell.&quot;
Some will claim there are verses to support it.
Malachi 1:1-3

Romans 9:11-14
11Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad—in order that God's purpose in election might stand: 12not by works but by him who calls—she was told, &quot;The older will serve the younger.&quot;[d] 13Just as it is written: &quot;Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.&quot;[e]

And the verses that11Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad—in order that God's purpose in election might stand: 12not by works but by him who calls—she was told, &quot;The older will serve the younger.&quot;[d] 13Just as it is written: &quot;Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.&quot;

the case for the total depravity of man also gets used to support that God will condemn anabaptized infants.

Psalm 51:5Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me.Psalm 51:4-6 (in Context) Psalm 51 (Whole Chapter)

These things are true, however, how God will judge the individual is based on the Romans verse and the verses defining the mind and will of God as NOT like ours.

1 Corinthians 2:9
However, as it is written: &quot;No eye has seen, no ear has heard, no mind has conceived what God has prepared for those who love him&quot; —1 Corinthians 2:8-10 (in Context) 1 Corinthians 2 (Whole Chapter)


Isaiah 55:8
&quot;For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways,&quot; declares the LORD.Isaiah 55:7-9 (in Context) Isaiah 55 (Whole Chapter)

based on His character and works we can trust God with His decisions. And that, more than anything, is where we must camp: Resting on the sovereignty of the Living God.

None of that denies of confirms God's act of judgment on infants. Nor does anything in the Bible really define an age of accountability.

But there are so many verses that DO support how important, more than that, HOW LOVED children are.
Jesus with little children must have be a most beautiful sight!

Matthew 11:25
[ Rest for the Weary ] At that time Jesus said, &quot;I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children.
Matthew 11:24-26 (in Context) Matthew 11 (Whole Chapter)

Matthew 18:3
And he said: &quot;I tell you the truth, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.
Matthew 18:2-4 (in Context) Matthew 18 (Whole Chapter)

Matthew 19:14
Jesus said, &quot;Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these.&quot;
Matthew 19:13-15 (in Context) Matthew 19 (Whole Chapter)

Matthew 18 : 1At that time the disciples came to Jesus and asked, &quot;Who is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven?&quot;

2He called a little child and had him stand among them. 3And he said: &quot;I tell you the truth, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven. 4Therefore, whoever humbles himself like this child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven.

5&quot;And whoever welcomes a little child like this in my name welcomes me. 6But if anyone causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to have a large millstone hung around his neck and to be drowned in the depths of the sea.

Imagine being THAT child, seeing Jesus beckoning you and then gathering you up onto His own knee and holding you close as one cherished and loved as immeasurably precious to Him, personally.

Maybe that child didn't understand all the words.
But you can believe he fully understood Jesus' love, and was unafraid or worried.

We may not fully understand all the God will do, but we can rest assured in His love and the value place on us in the death and resurrection of Christ

Besides valuing children above all because they accept Him wholly and without question, without fear or hesitation, God has given words that suggest that these, when they die so early or without exiting the womb alive, that they may

be gathered to Him. Job 3:3
&quot;May the day of my birth perish, and the night it was said, 'A boy is born!'
Job 3:2-4 (in Context) Job 3 (Whole Chapter)

I have heard this used and explained that Job would have been better off to never have been born because he would be in Heaven instead of in pain as an adult man knowing the sorrow he was suffering.

there ae other verses about it being better to die at birth or not to have been successfully delivered into birth.

But perhaps the most solid verse of mercy in the matter is in

2 Samuel 12
15 After Nathan had gone home, the LORD struck the child that Uriah's wife had borne to David, and he became ill. 16 David pleaded with God for the child. He fasted and went into his house and spent the nights lying on the ground. 17 The elders of his household stood beside him to get him up from the ground, but he refused, and he would not eat any food with them.

18 On the seventh day the child died. David's servants were afraid to tell him that the child was dead, for they thought, &quot;While the child was still living, we spoke to David but he would not listen to us. How can we tell him the child is dead? He may do something desperate.&quot;

19 David noticed that his servants were whispering among themselves and he realized the child was dead. &quot;Is the child dead?&quot; he asked.
&quot;Yes,&quot; they replied, &quot;he is dead.&quot;

20 Then David got up from the ground. After he had washed, put on lotions and changed his clothes, he went into the house of the LORD and worshiped. Then he went to his own house, and at his request they served him food, and he ate.

21 His servants asked him, &quot;Why are you acting this way? While the child was alive, you fasted and wept, but now that the child is dead, you get up and eat!&quot;

22 He answered, &quot;While the child was still alive, I fasted and wept. I thought, 'Who knows? The LORD may be gracious to me and let the child live.' 23 But now that he is dead, why should I fast? Can I bring him back again? I will go to him, but he will not return to me.&quot;

David, we know, was a man after God's own heart because God Himself said so.

David, we know, was saved by his faith in what was YET to be seen.

David wrote about that salvation in Psalm 51. and He wrote about Jesus Himself in

Psalm 110:1
[ Of David. A psalm. ] The LORD says to my Lord: &quot;Sit at my right hand until I make your enemies a footstool for your feet.&quot;
Psalm 110:1-3 (in Context) Psalm 110 (Whole Chapter)

Luke 20:42
David himself declares in the Book of Psalms: &quot; 'The Lord said to my Lord: &quot;Sit at my right hand
Luke 20:41-43 (in Context) Luke 20 (Whole Chapter)

Acts 2:34
For David did not ascend to heaven, and yet he said, &quot; 'The Lord said to my Lord: &quot;Sit at my right hand
Acts 2:33-35 (in Context) Acts 2 (Whole Chapter)

God's perfect consistency.

There is no doubt the David's eternal destination was the presence of his Lord!And he fully expected to see his son there, and God allowed it to be in His word.

I don't know if your conversation partner, Charles will read this or not. I would not guess at whether he would accept this.
But others searching will see it.
And for their sake I remind and encourage, it is not MY wisdom or my words that they should seek.
No one should to ask my word or my examinations in place of God's own words and God's own evidences for what He will do in the individual lives of all who seek Him.
Read it, therefore, for yourselves.
Look it all up and prayerfully read more than you find.

OneVoice

[charlesj]

Hi Joe:
I'm going to "number" parts of your quote as there are more than one question
in it. I do thank you for the questions. Sometimes when we write answers or even questions some words seem harsh. I don't mean to offend you or anyone on this forum. I believe that when we study the bible, over the years, we reach different levels of understanding. Some, who are ignorant (not stupid, but ignorant) of a teaching take offence and reject without any study. Paul praised the Bereans because they searched out the Word of our Lord to see if what he was preaching/teaching was truth. Others, confronted Paul and even Jesus. At one time, a group of Jews called our Lord the "prince of the Devils." (Baalzebub)... and our Lord said, they we would experience the same if not worse.

"Some insist that baptism is part of God’s bringing the sinner into saving union with Christ (I am one of those who believe that) and others that it’s an ordinance you attend to after you have entered Christ but if you don’t attend to it there’s no great loss."

1. “So you believe "that baptism is part of God's bringing the sinner into saving union with Christ"?” -- Yes.
2 “Do you believe a person can be saved without baptism of water?” -- -- No. Not under the New Covenant terms. Under the Old Covenant, a Jew was born into covenant relationship with God and on the eight day, they were sealed by circumcision. Many quote the “thief” on the cross as proof of salvation without baptism, but they are “ignorant” of the fact that the time period of the thief on the cross took place during the ‘Old
Covenant” time. The thief probably had been baptized by John as the scripture says “All Judea with out to be baptized by John.”

3. “Surely we can both agree that baptism of the Holy Spirit is required to enter the kingdom of heaven; however, can we enter heaven w/out water baptism? If you believe we can then there is no need to be detailed in your reponce unless you would like to be; however, if you believe the answer is no then I would like you to be very detailed as to why you believe this”.


-- -- First of all, when one obeys the scripture, like Acts 2:38 the scripture says we receive the “gift” of the Holy Spirit. The “Baptism of the Holy Spirit” is another subject, but briefly in Acts 2 we see the Baptism of the Holy Spirit among the Jews present. It was a wonderful event. This even happened again in Acts 10 to a Gentile Cornelius. This event was proof to the (former Jewish) believers that God was dealing with the Gentiles also in this New Covenant. I think tongues was a sign to the unbelievers (those ol’ Jews who had obeyed the gospel, but didn’t yet understand that the Gentiles was also included.) Like I said, this is brief (on the Baptism of the Holy Spirit) and volumes can be written on it. All who obey the gospel today receive the “gift of the Holy Spirit.” They are kingdom children!
As a matter of fact, all who obey the gospel have come to the point of Hebrews Hebrews 12:22-24 22 But you have come to Mount Zion, to the heavenly Jerusalem, the city of the living God. You have come to thousands upon thousands of angels in joyful assembly, 23 to the church of the firstborn, whose names are written in heaven. You have come to God, the judge of all men, to the spirits of righteous men made perfect, 24 to Jesus the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood that speaks a better word than the blood of Abel.


4. Also, if a person must be baptized in water to get into heaven, then what happens to the millions of babies and children that die w/out water baptism? Do they have no hope of salvation? And please don't give the age of accountability doctrine which i already know is completely unbiblical and is like a plague spreading the world. I am asking because if you believe a person can not get into heaven w/out water baptism then I am curious if your responce about babies will be biblically founded or based on yet another false doctrine that we must be of age to sin.
--- This question you pose (on babies) is not your fault. The fault is, and goes back to around 1530, John Calvin’s teachings and doctrines. At some time, I will write on Mr. Calvin (T.U.L.I.P.) The “T” is for Total Hereditary Depravity and basically says that “everyone is born in sin.” So, if you believe everyone is “born” in sin, then you have been influenced by Calvin (as most have). The bible does NOT teach this. The bible says I am not responsible for my father’s sins nor are my sons responsible for my sins.
Jesus held a little child in his hands and said “such are of the kingdom of God. (Apparently he hadn’t heard Calvin. Lol)

 Under the terms of the New Covenant, we are to repent to God, confess Jesus as our Lord and Savior and then be buried (baptized) WITH Him.
 God made this covenant with the house of Israel and the house of Judah. Jesus ‘sealed’ this covenant with HIS BLOOD. He was a “testator” and according to the Hebrew writer, as long as the testator was living, you could change the testament, but after he dies, it cannot be changed or altered. Hebrews 9:16-17 16 For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator. 17 For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.

Anyway, Joes, thanks for your questions. May you be a Berean and study His Word. We must be disciples (learners) of our Lord.

Your servant in Messiah, Jesus
Charlesj

[OneJoe]

Hi Joe:
I'm going to "number" parts of your quote as there are more than one question
in it. I do thank you for the questions. Sometimes when we write answers or even questions some words seem harsh. I don't mean to offend you or anyone on this forum. I believe that when we study the bible, over the years, we reach different levels of understanding. Some, who are ignorant (not stupid, but ignorant) of a teaching take offence and reject without any study. Paul praised the Bereans because they searched out the Word of our Lord to see if what he was preaching/teaching was truth. Others, confronted Paul and even Jesus. At one time, a group of Jews called our Lord the "prince of the Devils." (Baalzebub)... and our Lord said, they we would experience the same if not worse.

"Some insist that baptism is part of God’s bringing the sinner into saving union with Christ (I am one of those who believe that) and others that it’s an ordinance you attend to after you have entered Christ but if you don’t attend to it there’s no great loss."

1. “So you believe "that baptism is part of God's bringing the sinner into saving union with Christ"?” -- Yes.
2 “Do you believe a person can be saved without baptism of water?” -- -- No. Not under the New Covenant terms. Under the Old Covenant, a Jew was born into covenant relationship with God and on the eight day, they were sealed by circumcision. Many quote the “thief” on the cross as proof of salvation without baptism, but they are “ignorant” of the fact that the time period of the thief on the cross took place during the ‘Old
Covenant” time. The thief probably had been baptized by John as the scripture says “All Judea with out to be baptized by John.”

3. “Surely we can both agree that baptism of the Holy Spirit is required to enter the kingdom of heaven; however, can we enter heaven w/out water baptism? If you believe we can then there is no need to be detailed in your reponce unless you would like to be; however, if you believe the answer is no then I would like you to be very detailed as to why you believe this”.


-- -- First of all, when one obeys the scripture, like Acts 2:38 the scripture says we receive the “gift” of the Holy Spirit. The “Baptism of the Holy Spirit” is another subject, but briefly in Acts 2 we see the Baptism of the Holy Spirit among the Jews present. It was a wonderful event. This even happened again in Acts 10 to a Gentile Cornelius. This event was proof to the (former Jewish) believers that God was dealing with the Gentiles also in this New Covenant. I think tongues was a sign to the unbelievers (those ol’ Jews who had obeyed the gospel, but didn’t yet understand that the Gentiles was also included.) Like I said, this is brief (on the Baptism of the Holy Spirit) and volumes can be written on it. All who obey the gospel today receive the “gift of the Holy Spirit.” They are kingdom children!
As a matter of fact, all who obey the gospel have come to the point of Hebrews Hebrews 12:22-24 22 But you have come to Mount Zion, to the heavenly Jerusalem, the city of the living God. You have come to thousands upon thousands of angels in joyful assembly, 23 to the church of the firstborn, whose names are written in heaven. You have come to God, the judge of all men, to the spirits of righteous men made perfect, 24 to Jesus the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood that speaks a better word than the blood of Abel.


4. Also, if a person must be baptized in water to get into heaven, then what happens to the millions of babies and children that die w/out water baptism? Do they have no hope of salvation? And please don't give the age of accountability doctrine which i already know is completely unbiblical and is like a plague spreading the world. I am asking because if you believe a person can not get into heaven w/out water baptism then I am curious if your responce about babies will be biblically founded or based on yet another false doctrine that we must be of age to sin.
--- This question you pose (on babies) is not your fault. The fault is, and goes back to around 1530, John Calvin’s teachings and doctrines. At some time, I will write on Mr. Calvin (T.U.L.I.P.) The “T” is for Total Hereditary Depravity and basically says that “everyone is born in sin.” So, if you believe everyone is “born” in sin, then you have been influenced by Calvin (as most have). The bible does NOT teach this. The bible says I am not responsible for my father’s sins nor are my sons responsible for my sins.
Jesus held a little child in his hands and said “such are of the kingdom of God. (Apparently he hadn’t heard Calvin. Lol)

 Under the terms of the New Covenant, we are to repent to God, confess Jesus as our Lord and Savior and then be buried (baptized) WITH Him.
 God made this covenant with the house of Israel and the house of Judah. Jesus ‘sealed’ this covenant with HIS BLOOD. He was a “testator” and according to the Hebrew writer, as long as the testator was living, you could change the testament, but after he dies, it cannot be changed or altered. Hebrews 9:16-17 16 For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator. 17 For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.

Anyway, Joes, thanks for your questions. May you be a Berean and study His Word. We must be disciples (learners) of our Lord.

Your servant in Messiah, Jesus
Charlesj

Charles, thank you for that detailed and very clear reply. I must however reply again to something you said. This is off the baptism topic so please forgive me.

The “T” is for Total Hereditary Depravity and basically says that “everyone is born in sin.” So, if you believe everyone is “born” in sin, then you have been influenced by Calvin (as most have). The bible does NOT teach this.

I know very little about John Calvin; however, I can see where some of his teachings are drawn from the bible. I also can see where he might get the idea that were all born in sin.

First, the bible says that with the disobedience of Adam, death passed upon all men. We all became spiritually dead and I say spiritually because they certainly did not die a physical death right then. I would also like to post a few scriptures for you to comment on. Now, I am curious about the idea of "original sin" which leads me to this first verse.
......................
Rom 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

Rom 5:14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

Even though they had not sinned, they were still under death. Only those in sin are under death so man certainly is not without sin, that includes children.

1Jo 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

Tell me, were the children and babies of Sodom spared? Were the babies of Noah's flood spared? Were the children and babies of Babylon spared? Or were they all destroyed as well?
......................

Psa 58:3 The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies.

That is an interesting verse. Quite clear as well.
......................

Since the whole bible must be in harmony, where do these scriptures fit into the "age of accountability" and all being born in sin or as you believe, not born in sin?

Again, thank you for your reply and may the Lord bless you!

Onejoe

[charlesj]

Hello Joe:
Sorry for the delay in answering. My mom died back in June and my wife and I have been restoring her house. (Since 1st week of July) It’s 2500 sq feet and I started in the kitchen and have gone from room to room…. When I retired I didn’t want to work any more, but this has been a full time job. LOL
I leave my home around 0830 and don’t get home until late evening, sometimes 7 or 8 p.m. So, that’s why I haven’t jumped into the saddle and start typing a reply.

Anyway, I would like to respond to your statements and questions. I will used numbering to separate the statement or question.
I do appreciate your interest in our Lord. This is the way we all learn.


1. I know very little about John Calvin; however, I can see where some of his teachings are drawn from the bible. I also can see where he might get the idea that were all born in sin.

 Calvin has influenced most of the religious world. I don’t want to get into his doctrines at this time, but hopefully on another night I will.


2. First, the bible says that with the disobedience of Adam, death passed upon all men. We all became spiritually dead and I say spiritually
because they certainly did not die a physical death right then. I would also like to post a few scriptures for you to comment on.

--- in the margins of some bibles of Genesis 2:17 “… in the day that thou eatest thereof, thou shalt surely die…” the margins read “dying thou shalt die.” In other words, in the day you eat of this, you will merit death. Here is a quote from my BibleWorks software using KJV on Gen 2:17
Genesis 2:17 17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die. {thou shalt surely...: Heb. dying thou shalt die} This was fulfilled in Genesis 5:5, Adam died. This was a physical death!

3. Now, I am curious about the idea of "original sin" which leads me to this first verse.
......................
Rom 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man (the) sin entered into the world, and death by (the) sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
Rom 5:14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

--- We note in Romans 5:12 that something has been inherited from Adam. What?

We must examine the passage to see what has been inherited from Adam.
Verse 12 starts with a broken sentence and finishes in verse 18.
Verse 12 The ‘one man’ is Adam. (verse 14 explains it).
“Sin” is “the sin” (has an article, “the”) in the Greek. Does the article “the” have any special significance? What is “the sin”? Is it a “sinful nature”? Is sins personified?
It is “sin as a ruling power,” or “sin personified” (i.e., the Devil). One cannot substitute “hereditary depravity” for “the sin” in the rest of this passage and have the verses make sense.
“Death” is physical death. Verse 14 explains it.
“And so death spread to all men.” The whole race was subjected to physical death because Adam sinned. “Because all sinned.” Actually and personally? Or representatively in Adam?
Verse 13,14 explain in what sense all sinned. It is representatively in Adam.
Fact: People died physically in the ages between Adam and Moses. Why?
Answer: not because of personal sins.
There was NO LAW during that time whose penalty for breaking it was “death to the whole race.” So, it must have been because Adam’s sin that people died physically.


Even though they had not sinned, they were still under death. Only those in sin are under death so man certainly is not without sin, that includes children. *** Just remember, Joe, The law wasn’t given until Sinai… In Genesis, Eve was deceived and Adam disobeyed.

1Jo 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
 I will be the first to confess that I have sin, but neither of my grandchildren, ages 5 & 6, haven’t told me yet anything about sin. This passage of course is speaking to those who have knowledge of right and wrong. If those who know what is right or wrong say they haven’t sin, then the truth is not in them! (But, look for me, I'm at the head of the line!)

Tell me, were the children and babies of Sodom spared? Were the babies of Noah's flood spared? Were the children and babies of Babylon spared? Or were they all destroyed as well?
 NONE were spared. This was judgment, what does this have to do with original sin?
......................

Psa 58:3 The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies.

 Read this whole passage… it doesn’t say that they were “born” astray; it says “they went (go) astray. Are they born “speaking”?

That is an interesting verse. Quite clear as well.

[Bikn4God]

Ahhh, the question of baptism...

Once again... a hotly debated topic. This is my personal belief, and I believe that scripture backs it. I'll probably be ducking bullets, but here goes :

Christ and two thieves hung on crosses. One thief mocked and condemned Christ, the other received salvation and was promised paradise. No water on the man who was saved. Just the promise of Christ.

Christ died on the cross. His blood shed for the redemption of sins. Those who ask Him and make Christ their Lord....receive the same forgiveness and salvation as our friend the thief on the cross. Pretty cut and dry. What more do we need? I think His sacrifice is plenty, don't you?

What is the definition of baptism? Basically, "to be cleansed". Christ received baptism from John the Baptist. Why? Because Christ had sins to be cleansed? No. Read your Bible....and find out why.

So why are we to be baptised? An affirmation of our faith. We receive the salvation of Christ....and we affirm our faith by baptism.

If a woman was saved on her deathbed, but not baptised, would she go to hell? Of course not. Did not Christ die for her too?

How many people become baptised and are no more a Christian than a pagan is? One can be baptised and come up a wet sinner.

Stick with the nuts and bolts of the Gospel. John 3: 16 and then go get yourself wet. It's an affirmation of your faith.

I thank you...

CJ
SFFS

[charlesj]

Ahhh, the question of baptism...

Once again... a hotly debated topic. This is my personal belief, and I believe that scripture backs it. I'll probably be ducking bullets, but here goes :

Christ and two thieves hung on crosses. One thief mocked and condemned Christ, the other received salvation and was promised paradise. No water on the man who was saved. Just the promise of Christ.

Christ died on the cross. His blood shed for the redemption of sins. Those who ask Him and make Christ their Lord....receive the same forgiveness and salvation as our friend the thief on the cross. Pretty cut and dry. What more do we need? I think His sacrifice is plenty, don't you?

What is the definition of baptism? Basically, "to be cleansed". Christ received baptism from John the Baptist. Why? Because Christ had sins to be cleansed? No. Read your Bible....and find out why.

So why are we to be baptised? An affirmation of our faith. We receive the salvation of Christ....and we affirm our faith by baptism.

If a woman was saved on her deathbed, but not baptised, would she go to hell? Of course not. Did not Christ die for her too?

How many people become baptised and are no more a Christian than a pagan is? One can be baptised and come up a wet sinner.

Stick with the nuts and bolts of the Gospel. John 3: 16 and then go get yourself wet. It's an affirmation of your faith.

I thank you...

CJ
SFFS
Hello CJ. (BTW, that's my initials also)
Duck bullets??? One thing you need to know, many years ago, in the Marine Corp, we had a slogan, "one shot, one kill." So, beware, you won't have a change to "duck." LOL

First you bring up the ol' thief on the cross. How many times has that been brought up?? You need to remember the time period of the thief. The New Testament times had not been started yet... the thief was a Jew and also born as a covenant child of God. He was an old covenant man AND STILL LIVING UNDER THE OLD COVENANT. Had he been baptized? Well, the scripture says, when John the Baptist was baptizing, "all Judea when out to be baptized by John."

NO, the definition of baptism is not "to be cleansed." Take a look at this:

Romans 6:3-4 3 Or do you not know that all of us who have been (a)baptized into (b)Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death? 4 Therefore we have been (a)buried with Him through baptism into death, in order that as Christ was b)raised from the dead through the (c)glory of the Father, so we too might walk in (d)newness of life.

According to Romans 6:4,5
1. Baptism is a burial. (we are buried 'with Him.')
2. We are raised to walk in "newness of life." (new birth, born again!!)

CJ, read my other posts on baptism. I go more into detail.

And remember, every Marine is a very skilled rifeman..... lol

with care,
your servant in Messiah, Yeshua (Jesus)
CharlesJ

[OneJoe]

Is it not possible that it wasn't actually the water that washed away sins? But actually the water was just an illustration of what God does when he washes away our sins? If water could wash away sins, then where did God come into this "plan of salvation"?

[Bikn4God]

My friend, I beg to differ with you on the definition.

WHAT ABOUT BAPTISM?

©Copyright 1996 Randall D. Hughes

Baptism comes from the Greek word "baptizo" which means "to make whelmed (i.e. fully wet), to dip repeatedly, to immerse, to submerge, to wash, to make clean with water."

Aka..."Cleansing"

CJ

PS... I was in the military....and Sheriffs Department ERT... I never shot less than expert. ( Handgun, rifle, shotgun, or submachinegun. ) lol

[charlesj]

My friend, I beg to differ with you on the definition.

WHAT ABOUT BAPTISM?

©Copyright 1996 Randall D. Hughes

Baptism comes from the Greek word "baptizo" which means "to make whelmed (i.e. fully wet), to dip repeatedly, to immerse, to submerge, to wash, to make clean with water."

Aka..."Cleansing"

CJ

PS... I was in the military....and Sheriffs Department ERT... I never shot less than expert. ( Handgun, rifle, shotgun, or submachinegun. ) lol


CJ:
Thanks for your reply.
Yes, you are right on the Greek word, but take a look at what the apostle Peter says about baptism (baptizo)...

1 Peter 3:21 21 (a)And corresponding to that, baptism now saves you-- (b)not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a (c)good conscience-- through (d)the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

You see, "it's not the removeal of dirt" (taking a bath)... now, in all serousness, you are right, it does clean us from our sins... that is, baptism, not the water. Baptism is administered by a man, but God does the baptism.

Paul in Acts is told to "be baptized and wash away his sins..." Acts 22:16 16 'And now why do you delay? (a)Arise, and be baptized, and (b)wash away your sins, (c)calling on His name.'

Semper Fi,
charlesj

[germanJoy]

Water baptism is not what washes the sin away; ONLY the BLOOD OF THE LAMB OF GOD cleanses sins. Water baptism is nothing else but a SYMBOLICAL WASHING of sinners already cleansed by the blood of Christ.

Although believers are called and directed to be baptized in water and in the Holy Spirit, yet they were never seen as REQUIREMENTS for our salvation. The only requirement one reads in the bible for our salvation is TO ABIDE IN CHRIST BY LIVING LIKE HE LIVED.

A believer who is not baptized in water and in spirit but lives a RIGHTEOUS life is more justified than a believer who is baptized in water and in spirit but lives a SINFUL life.

But to spare ourselves from any attacks and accussations by the devil and his cohorts, it is WISE to undergo both baptisms just as the early believers had instructed and had done. However, these acts do not guarantee our salvation!

The works of Christ at the Cross is the only guarantee, no more no less!!

[OneJoe]

Water baptism is not what washes the sin away; ONLY the BLOOD OF THE LAMB OF GOD cleanses sins. Water baptism is nothing else but a SYMBOLICAL WASHING of sinners already cleansed by the blood of Christ.

Although believers are called and directed to be baptized in water and in the Holy Spirit, yet they were never seen as REQUIREMENTS for our salvation. The only requirement one reads in the bible for our salvation is TO ABIDE IN CHRIST BY LIVING LIKE HE LIVED.

A believer who is not baptized in water and in spirit but lives a RIGHTEOUS life is more justified than a believer who is baptized in water and in spirit but lives a SINFUL life.

But to spare ourselves from any attacks and accussations by the devil and his cohorts, it is WISE to undergo both baptisms just as the early believers had instructed and had done. However, these acts do not guarantee our salvation!

The works of Christ at the Cross is the only guarantee, no more no less!!
Amen GermanJoy..:-)

[OneVoice]

I know very little about John Calvin; however, I can see where some of his teachings are drawn from the bible. I also can see where he might get the idea that were all born in sin.

Since the whole bible must be in harmony, where do these scriptures fit into the "age of accountability" and all being born in sin or as you believe, not born in sin?

Again, thank you for your reply and may the Lord bless you!

Onejoe

http://www.spurgeon.org/~phil/dabney/5points.htm

you have probably been reading some things already but I haven't been reading the boards as often... busy with family, always. But oit's a good thing.
This site is a big help.

and about the ahrmony of scripture.
It is truely amazing that after years of study I have yet to find any lack of consistancey, harmony and absolute congruency of God's word.

I has met with some online who enjoy making claims about the unreliability of scripture. Not only is it always possible to show there is reliability and consistancy in the Bible, but it is possible by Historical evidence tests of Biliographical, External and Internal tests used on ALL historical documents and writings of antiquity.
It ia moving to see that these rigorous tests show the Bibel to be better copied, and 5000 times more acurately preserved with more manuscripts and manuscripts written withiong 100 years of Christ and documentation to prove that the new testement text were written withing two generations of the death and resurrection of Christ.

66 books in all written by 44 different people from all walks of live, on three continemnts, in three languages, in war and peace, in joy and dispair, on ever controversial topic there is, over a period of 1500 years. And

EVERYTHING in is is written with perfect harmony and all expresses the single unfolding story of God's redemption of man.

Who but God couls accomplish that?
Amazing!


thanks for the oportunity to share a thought

God bless
OneVoice

[charlesj]

AMEN ON THE HARMONY AND CONSISTENCY!!!!!
charles

[blueheron32]

bikn4God said..

"Baptism comes from the Greek word "baptizo" which means "to make whelmed (i.e. fully wet), to dip repeatedly, to immerse, to submerge, to wash, to make clean with water."

Granted that that is the classic definition of the word baptizo...however is that the way the bible uses the word.. where in the bible do we see the word used to illustrate immersion...or submersion, or to dip repeatedly...?? Where is such an action clearly illustrated in either the old or new testament ceremonial cleansings...?

blueheron32

[Godsent]

Baptism is just supposed to be for one who is joining a church and is in no way a means of salvation. No u dont have to be baptised to go to heaven its just that if u go to a baptist church like i grew up in if u wanted to take a part in what the church was doing and so forth then baptism was believed to be crucial. As for me i now go to a quaker church were they dont believe in baptism they just believe in whats called open worship its a time before service that we get to stand up and voice or blessings and prayer request and stress our concerns.

[Bikn4God]

Quick reply...

".........be baptised and wash away his sins...."

Jesus was baptised of John. Jesus was not in need of the cleansing of sin, He had none. The baptism of John was an affirmation of Christ's upcoming ministry.

Rock on...

CJ
SFFS

[Bikn4God]

Godsent,

I went to Quaker school as a young boy. I did the Quaker worship weekly. Although I was not a Quaker.

And I agree that baptism is not a pre-requisite for salvation, but an affirmation of that salvation. When one becomes baptised, they are affirming their faith in Christ, and the redemption of sins by His shed blood on the cross.

That is my belief.

CJ
SFFS

[Bikn4God]

That is the definition of the word, "baptizo".

As far as a baptism went.... the Ethiopian man was baptised in the river. Was it immersion, submersion, dipped, dunked, clunked and dunked, dripped on, drip dried, sprinkled, tinkled....? Well... He got wet. Baptised.

I thank you.

CJ
SFFS

[Godsent]

Godsent,

I went to Quaker school as a young boy. I did the Quaker worship weekly. Although I was not a Quaker.

And I agree that baptism is not a pre-requisite for salvation, but an affirmation of that salvation. When one becomes baptised, they are affirming their faith in Christ, and the redemption of sins by His shed blood on the cross.

That is my belief.

CJ
SFFS
Same here...i believe the same way so were on the same page :)

[blueheron32]

the Ethopian man was baptised in the river. Was it immersion,

what river....I must have missed that....was a river mentioned...?

He was sprinkled...:-D
blueheron32

[Bikn4God]

Did I deny we should be baptised? No. I think we need to be. But I know one thief who was not. And he went to Heaven. If a soldier in the field begs Christ for forgiveness and salvation, and then is later killed in battle, is he denied the mercy of Almighty God? Is he doomed from lack of water?

"For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that he who believes on Him shall not perish, but have everlasting life. "

That's the nuts and bolts of the Gospel. If it wasn't for that... we'd all be doomed. Wet or dry.

CJ
SFFS

[Godsent]

Did I deny we should be baptised? No. I think we need to be. But I know one thief who was not. And he went to Heaven. If a soldier in the field begs Christ for forgiveness and salvation, and then is later killed in battle, is he denied the mercy of Almighty God? Is he doomed from lack of water?

"For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that he who believes on Him shall not perish, but have everlasting life. "

That's the nuts and bolts of the Gospel. If it wasn't for that... we'd all be doomed. Wet or dry.

CJ
SFFS
I wasnt saying that baptism wasnt a good thing i was simply saying its not a must have. If the sinners prayer is prayed that they will be saved and no matter who it is they will be in heaven for by faith we arent saved and faith is shown if we pray the sinners prayer in absolute honesty. :)

[Bikn4God]

I agree with you, brother. It's a good thing, and the right thing, but not the ONLY thing.

God Bless,

CJ

[Godsent]

I agree with you, brother. It's a good thing, and the right thing, but not the ONLY thing.

God Bless,

CJ
what u said about the baptistism not being the ONLY thing u are so true about that...i mean what would christians that dont go to a baptist church or go through baptism do, go to hell? they most certainly would not:)

[charlesj]

Did I deny we should be baptised? No. I think we need to be. But I know one thief who was not. And he went to Heaven. ...
CJ
SFFS


Hello CJ:

Thief on cross was born an Old Covenant child of God living in an old covenant time period. The New Covenant had not started yet. IN the New Covenant, you "must be born again" in order to see or enter into the Kingdom of God. People do not like it when you make yourself sound like a lawyer (which I'm not), but you must obey the terms of the New Covenant.

It is the Blood of our Lord Jesus that saves a person. God tells us we must be baptized into Christ to "put Christ on." Galatians 3:27 27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

I have always believed that it's the BLOOD OF CHRIST that has atoned for my sins... but then the Lord tells us, through His apostle Paul, that we are to be "buried with Him" (baptism) and raised TO WALK IN NEWNESS OF LIFE." (Rom 6:4ff)

This is what I think is truth. I don't judge you or others for having your or their view(s). The Lord will be our judge. I am thankful of that.

Your servant in Messiah, Jesus the Christ,
charlesj

[brenn]

Baptisim is a public profession of what you have accepted in your heart. Jesus is the only begotten Son of God who died on the cross for our sins, was buried and rose on the third day and is now alive and well sitting on the right hand of the Father.

I might add "sprinkling" is NOT Baptisim and is NOT in the Bible.
as for the children I haven't studied that out yet so I can't give any help on that one sorry. we can't rely on heresay or opinions we have to seek it out in Gods word.

[charlesj]

Baptisim is a public profession of what you have accepted in your heart. Jesus is the only begotten Son of God who died on the cross for our sins, was buried and rose on the third day and is now alive and well sitting on the right hand of the Father.

I might add "sprinkling" is NOT Baptisim and is NOT in the Bible.
as for the children I haven't studied that out yet so I can't give any help on that one sorry. we can't rely on heresay or opinions we have to seek it out in Gods word.

Hello brenn:

According to the apostle Paul, baptism is a burial with Jesus. I would agree with you on the "public profession" except that the bible does not say or teach it.
Romans 6:3-4 3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? 4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

Paul also tells us here that after we are buried with Him (Jesus), we are raised to walk in "newness of life." This is the new birth, you are "born again" at this time according to the apostle.

have a great day,
your servant in Messiah, Jesus,
charlesj

[blueheron32]

Sprinkling is not baptism??? And is not in the bible..??? I believe both of your statements above are wrong...:-)

blueheron32

[brenn]

please show me scripture that says sprinkling a child or and adult is baptisim.

[blueheron32]

Ok...I shall...:-)

Heb 9:10 Which stood only3440 in1909 meats1033 and2532 drinks,4188 and2532 divers1313 washings,909 and2532 carnal4561 ordinances,1345 imposed1945 on them until3360 the time2540 of reformation.1357

The word there that is translated "washings" is the greek word, baptismos... it is the plural greek word for the word, baptidzo. so if the translators would have followed their normal custum and simply transliterated that word it would read..baptisms.... It is refering back to the ceremonial law, and the many ceremonial ablutions performed by the priests under the law of Moses. If you go back and examine those baptisms, you will never see immersion, it does not exist as a baptism, or washing in any of those ceremonial observances. I will give a couple examples...but there are many..

Exo 29:16 And thou shalt slay the ram, and thou shalt take his blood, and sprinkle it round about upon the altar.
Lev 14:7 And he shall sprinkle upon him that is to be cleansed from the leprosy seven times, and shall pronounce him clean, and shall let the living bird loose into the open field.
Num 19:18 And a clean person shall take hyssop, and dip it in the water, and sprinkle it upon the tent, and upon all the vessels, and upon the persons that were there, and upon him that touched a bone, or one slain, or one dead, or a grave:

Normally the ceremonial cleansing refered to in hebrews..was performed by sprinkling, and are called baptisms in that verse..

In Ezekiel 36 God gives a beautiful description of the nature of salvation, and what he does to accomplish it...Part of that description is a cleansing he performs to wash us from all our uncleaness...it reads..

Eze 36:24 For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land.
Eze 36:25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.
Eze 36:26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
Eze 36:27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

He says, I will "sprinkle" clean water upon you....

One of the examples that is often used to prove immersion is the baptism of the ethiopian eunuch, you will remember the place the eunuch was reading from was from Isaiah 53....this is what he was reading..

Act 8:32 The place of the scripture which he read was this, He was led as a sheep to the slaughter; and like a lamb dumb before his shearer, so opened he not his mouth:

After Philip had explained that passage by preaching to him Jesus Christ...the Eunuch asked philip the question...

Act 8:36 And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized?

Now you wonder..where did the idea of baptism come from. The record in acts doesnt mention it so where did the Ethiopian come up with this question...? The answer is simple...If you go back from where he was reading in Isaiah, just a few verses into chapter 52, this is what we read...

Isa 52:13 Behold, my servant shall deal prudently, he shall be exalted and extolled, and be very high.
Isa 52:14 As many were astonied at thee; his visage was so marred more than any man, and his form more than the sons of men:
Isa 52:15 So shall he sprinkle many nations; the kings shall shut their mouths at him: for that which had not been told them shall they see; and that which they had not heard shall they consider.

More verses that speak of Christ, and the nature of his work among men, and what does it say he will do.. He will "sprinkle", many nations...

brenn...I might make the same statement you did...Immersion is not baptism, and immersion is not in the bible....:-)

blueheron32