Is God a person or a spirit? [Archive]

not4gotton

01-27-2006, 03:14 PM

Trinity states that God is manifest in three Persons seperate from Himself
the Father.....which is God.....a spirit
the Son....which is the man Jesus Christ (human)
and the Holy Spirit......which is a spirit

*God is not seperate from Himself*

Look up the word "person" it means < a Human being >
That tells me that Jesus is the *Only * Person in the so called trinity

so God is the Father (which is a spirit)
and the Holy Spirit is also a spirit
So then that leaves Jesus which is a person or human
There is only one person in the Godhead ! That is Jesus.

and God ( the spirit) was in Christ(the only Person in the Godhead) reconciling the world unto Himself

*all th fulness of the Godhead bodily.......Col.2:9*
So there is no such thing as trinity.....there is no three (3) Persons in the godhead there is only one, that is Christ Jesus!
and there is only One Spirit that is God ! One God in unity with His Son
Jesus is called the Son because "he come out of God" just like children come from their fathers..

Whoever came up with the doctrine of trinity was a very confused person
who cannot disern the difference between a spirit and human being.

Tamara224

01-27-2006, 04:04 PM

Trinity states that God is manifest in three Persons seperate from Himself
the Father.....which is God.....a spirit
the Son....which is the man Jesus Christ (human)
and the Holy Spirit......which is a spirit

Not4gotten...you've started with an assumption about what the Trinity doctrine states which is not true - so your arguments are false. The doctrine of the Trinity does not teach that God is three humans - you're trying to play a slippery game of semantics and it's almost embarrassing.
The doctrine also doesn't say anything about God being separate from Himself.
The correct formulation of your table should be:

God the Father .... Who is God .... supreme spiritual Being, not merely 'a spirit'
God the Son ... Who is God ... Who took on human flesh and humbled himself to the form of human for a time
God the Holy Spirit ... Who is God ... Is a Spirit

What I don't understand is why it is soooo difficult for non-trinitarians to understand the concept of the Trinity and who God is. God is THREE IN ONE. It is a seeming paradox. OK. It is not three completely separate gods or persons. The THREE are ONE, the ONE are THREE. Please, please, stop and take this in and quit throwing up strawmen to argue with.

Whoever came up with the doctrine of trinity was a very confused person who cannot disern the difference between a spirit and human being.

Well, if you start with an absurd assumption you get an absurd conclusion. The Doctrine of the Trinity is in no way based on the idea that God is three 'persons' ('persons' meaning 'human'). The term 'person' has been used in describing the Trinity only for lack of a better word. Three 'Beings' might be a closer word to what is described. Person is used in that context to denote a sentient individual - not a human.

What you have done, not4gotten, is LIMIT GOD! To suggest that God is purely spirit, first off, is a very very narrow assumption that is silly. God is God. He is everywhere at once, knows everything, created everything, etc, etc. The very concept of the distinction between flesh and spirit was created by God. He is capable of taking on or appearing in flesh - or in Spirit because He can do anything. To sum up the nature of God's existence by defining Him as either Spirit or Person is absurd! God's nature is so far beyond ours that we really can't completely comprehend it - we can't grasp his magnificence, His awesome splendor.

So there is no such thing as trinity.....there is no three (3) Persons in the godhead there is only one, that is Christ Jesus!
and there is only One Spirit that is God ! One God in unity with His Son
Jesus is called the Son because "he come out of God" just like children come from their fathers..
I'm not even sure what point you're trying make here, honestly. You say there is no Trinity because only the Son took on Flesh? And how could the Son come out of God if there is only the Son? He came out of himself? So who was Jesus praying to when he prayed? Himself? Why did he call Himself 'Father'? And why would He pray to himself as if to a different 'person/bieng'?

To sum up...First, you started with an argument against a statement that is not part of the doctrine argued against. Therefore, every argument made began with a false supposition and are therefore not persuasive. Second, the arguments are illogical and conclusory (having no support in the Bible or logic). Third, the arguments are contraindicated in Scripture and therefore false.

EnterHisPresence

01-27-2006, 04:37 PM

I want to answer this...."I'm not even sure what point you're trying make here, honestly. You say there is no Trinity because only the Son took on Flesh? And how could the Son come out of God if there is only the Son? He came out of himself? So who was Jesus praying to when he prayed? Himself? Why did he call Himself 'Father'? And why would He pray to himself as if to a different 'person/bieng'?"

Trinitarians can't comprehend it seems that Jesus was both human and God. The human part of Christ is the one that prayed, not only for Himself, but in that He was our example...He was our teacher.

God is omnipresent- meaning God is everywhere at once. God was and could be in Jesus on earth and still be in Heaven at the same time.

Tamara224

01-27-2006, 05:24 PM

Trinitarians can't comprehend it seems that Jesus was both human and God. The human part of Christ is the one that prayed, not only for Himself, but in that He was our example...He was our teacher.

God is omnipresent- meaning God is everywhere at once. God was and could be in Jesus on earth and still be in Heaven at the same time.

How can you say that Trinitarians can't comprehend that Jesus was both human and God when that is what we've been saying all along?! When have you ever heard us say that Jesus is not God?! Jesus took on human form - he was/is human without giving up His Godhood. That's not a point of disagreement for us, I don't think.

What my questions were meant to illustrate is the contradiction in the statement that since Jesus took on flesh he is the only 'head' in the Godhead. My questions were 'who was Jesus praying to when he prayed to the Father.'

So, your answer is that he was praying to himself - the part of himself that was in heaven? Is that a correct summation of your answer?

I think to draw that conclusion a person must first start with that assumption prior to reading the passages. If you simply read where Jesus speaks of His Father in Heaven, a person understands that Jesus is talking to and about someone other than himself. In order to conclude that he wasn't you have to start with the assumption that there is no God the Father who is separate and distinct from God the Son. Then you have to try to explain away the clear references to a distinct entity called The Father.
It's true that Jesus is our example and teacher. He was teaching us how to pray with the Lord's Prayer. But there are many other instances of Jesus referring to His Father and praying to His Father as if to a different person.

For example:
Matthew 26:39: Going a little farther, he fell with his face to the ground and prayed, "My Father, if it is possible, may this cup be taken from me. Yet not as I will, but as you will."

If the Son and the Father are the same, not distinct entities, then this passage makes no sense. It's clear from the plain reading of this text that there are two wills at work here. The will of the Son and the will of the Father. The Son is deferring to the Father's Will. In order for there to be two 'wills' there must be two distinct 'entities'. Otherwise, God would be schizophrenic.

EnterHisPresence

01-27-2006, 05:43 PM

Do the prayers of Christ indicate a distinction of persons between Jesus and the Father? No. On the contrary, His praying indicates a distinction between the Son of God and God. Jesus prayed in His humanity, not in His deity. If the prayers of Jesus demonstrate that the divine nature of Jesus is different than the Father, then Jesus is inferior to the Father in deity. In other words, if Jesus prayed as God then His position in the Godhead would be somehow inferior to the other "persons." This one example effectively destroys the concept of a trinity of co-equal persons.

How can God pray and still be God? By definition, God in His omnipotence has no need to pray, and in His oneness has no other to whom He can pray. If the prayers of Jesus prove there are two persons in the Godhead, then one of those persons is subordinate to the other and therefore not fully or truly God.

Rev 4:2 And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne.

Tamara...why is there only one throne in Heaven?

There is one throne in heaven and One who sits upon it. John described this in Revelation 4:2: "And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne." Without doubt this One is God because the twenty-four elders around the throne address Him as "Holy, holy, holy, Lord God Almighty, which was, and is, and is to come" (Revelation 4:8). When we compare this to Revelation 1:5-18, we discover a remarkable similarity in the description of Jesus and the One sitting on the throne. "I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty" (Revelation 1:8). Verses 5-7 make clear that Jesus is the One speaking in verse 8. Moreover, Jesus is clearly the subject of Revelation 1:11-18. In verse 11, Jesus identified Himself as the Alpha and Omega, the first and the last. In verses 17-18 Jesus said, "I am the first and the last: I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death." From the first chapter of Revelation, therefore, we find that Jesus is the Lord, the Almighty, and the One who is, was, and is to come. Since the same descriptive terms and titles apply to Jesus and to the One sitting on the throne, it is apparent that the One on the throne is none other than Jesus Christ.

There is additional support for this conclusion. Revelation 4:11 tells us the One on the throne is the Creator, and we know Jesus is the Creator (John 1:3; Colossians 1:16). Furthermore, the One on the throne is worthy to receive glory, honor, and power (Revelation 4:11); we read that the Lamb that was slain (Jesus) is worthy to receive power, riches, wisdom, strength, honor, glory, and blessing (Revelation 5:12). Revelation 20:11-12 tells us the One on the throne is the Judge, and we know Jesus is the Judge of all (John 5:22, 27; Romans 2:16; 14:10-11). We conclude that Jesus must be the One on the throne in Revelation 4.

Revelation 22:3-4 speaks of the throne of God and of the Lamb. These verses speak of one throne, one face, and one name. Therefore, God and the Lamb must be one Being who has one face and one name and who sits on one throne. The only person who is both God and the Lamb is Jesus Christ.
The Book of Revelation tells us that when we get to heaven we will see Jesus alone on the throne. Jesus is the only visible manifestation of God we will ever see in heaven.

EnterHisPresence

01-27-2006, 05:48 PM

not4gotton

01-27-2006, 05:58 PM

St.John 4: 24 > God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and truth> like I said God is a spirit !

And God the Spirit created Jesus ( I did not say>>the Son took on Flesh. I said that God (the Spirit) created Jesus and that God was in Christ.. you misunderstand
There is NOT three in One. There is One Spirit...and one Body and All of the fulness of the Godhead was in that body.

You said that I have limited God ..No trinity limits God ....God dosent need help He can do anything all by himself ! He dosent need "three beings"

You said >To sum up the nature of God's existence by defining Him as either Spirit or Person is absurd. I did not say that God was "either Spirit or Person"
I say He is both !

Like I've said before Jesus prayed as an example to us that we alike should pray to God (the Spirit) in our time of need.

And yes trinity has stated that there are three "persons" in the Godhead.

not4gotton

01-27-2006, 06:02 PM

Amen !!

Tamara224

01-27-2006, 06:05 PM

Tamara....I have a question for you... Do YOU pray? Why? You have the Holy Ghost..do you not? So, why do you pray?

because the spirit is willing but the flesh is weak. It's the same thing with the humanity of Jesus.

But I'm not God. The Holy Spirit indwelling me does not make me God. I still have my flesh and my spirit (which is not the Holy Spirit). Although the Holy Spirit lives in me, that did not make me the Holy Spirit or the Holy Spirit me. My body is the temple in which the Holy Spirit dwells.

EnterHisPresence

01-27-2006, 06:09 PM

My point is that Jesus was both human and God...in His humanity, He had to pray to the deity.

Tamara224

01-27-2006, 06:38 PM

Do the prayers of Christ indicate a distinction of persons between Jesus and the Father? No. On the contrary, His praying indicates a distinction between the Son of God and God. Jesus prayed in His humanity, not in His deity. If the prayers of Jesus demonstrate that the divine nature of Jesus is different than the Father, then Jesus is inferior to the Father in deity. In other words, if Jesus prayed as God then His position in the Godhead would be somehow inferior to the other "persons." This one example effectively destroys the concept of a trinity of co-equal persons.

I don't see how it implies inferiority at all. Also, I don't see how it destroys the concept of the Trinity. The prayers of Jesus demonstrate that He chose to submit to the Father. He's not inferior, he lets the Father take the lead. We see this example in I Corinthians 11:3 when Paul was talking about the proper relationship of husbands and wives:
Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.
Since we know that men and women are equal in Christ ("There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus." Gal 3:28) We can see that even though we can be equals, one has to take the lead. The relationship between God the Father and God the Son is the same. They are both God and therefore equal, but God the Father is the 'head.'

There is one throne in heaven and One who sits upon it. ... From the first chapter of Revelation, therefore, we find that Jesus is the Lord, the Almighty, and the One who is, was, and is to come. Since the same descriptive terms and titles apply to Jesus and to the One sitting on the throne, it is apparent that the One on the throne is none other than Jesus Christ.

These passages don't refute the Trinity. Of course Jesus is referred to as God - HE IS GOD!

All of you claims about ONE, one throne, one face, one etc, etc. Yeah - those square with the Trinity. THREE IN ONE, ONE IN THREE.

There is additional support for this conclusion. Revelation 4:11 tells us the One on the throne is the Creator, and we know Jesus is the Creator (John 1:3; Colossians 1:16). Furthermore, the One on the throne is worthy to receive glory, honor, and power (Revelation 4:11); we read that the Lamb that was slain (Jesus) is worthy to receive power, riches, wisdom, strength, honor, glory, and blessing (Revelation 5:12). Revelation 20:11-12 tells us the One on the throne is the Judge, and we know Jesus is the Judge of all (John 5:22, 27; Romans 2:16; 14:10-11). We conclude that Jesus must be the One on the throne in Revelation 4.

So?! How does this disprove the Trinity? An argument from silence is not persuasive. You take passages that refer specifically to a revelation about Christ and say that because there is only One mentioned in that passage he is the only One, period. What about all of the other times the Bible talks about God? You can't just take this one Book and say it says all there is to say - especially when it's the last book which builds on the foundation of the first 65.

The Book of Revelation tells us that when we get to heaven we will see Jesus alone on the throne. Jesus is the only visible manifestation of God we will ever see in heaven.

I disagree. The Book of Revelation tells us about what John saw happening in Heaven during the end times. The Book of Revelation is silent as to what most of the saints are doing during that time. The Book of Revelation doesn't tell us specifically what's going to happen after the final judgment. It doesn't tell us a lot of things. It does not give us the definitive answer as to God's nature.

EnterHisPresence

01-27-2006, 07:00 PM

Tamara224

01-27-2006, 07:01 PM

And God the Spirit created Jesus ( I did not say>>the Son took on Flesh. I said that God (the Spirit) created Jesus and that God was in Christ.. you misunderstand

I'm sorry if the format of my post caused this confusion...I didn't say you said that. I said that the Son took on flesh. My point is (and the doctrine of the Trinity says this) that God the Son always was and then he put on flesh and dwelt among us. He was not created by God - he was begotten of God. Jesus is not a creature - he is the Creator. [And just for clarification sake, I'm not saying that I think you said Jesus wasn't the creator.]

You said that I have limited God ..No trinity limits God ....God dosent need help He can do anything all by himself ! He dosent need "three beings"
LOL. I'm sorry, this is silly. God isn't THREE IN ONE because he needs help. The concept of the Trinity in no way suggests that God needed help so there's three of him. There just are THREE IN ONE. That's just who God is. It's always been that way and always will. Of course God doesn't need any help with anything. The Three of the Godhead have different attributes but they are all three God, together. It's not about Him needing anything, it's just who He is.

You said >To sum up the nature of God's existence by defining Him as either Spirit or Person is absurd. I did not say that God was "either Spirit or Person"
I say He is both !

Well forgive me if I misunderstood you. I did tell you I didn't understand your point. Maybe you should work on your communication skills because I still don't understand what you are saying. What was your whole point with making the distinctions between 'person/flesh' and spirit then? I still don't get where you were going with that whole thing.

And yes trinity has stated that there are three "persons" in the Godhead.

Go back and read my post again please. The Trinity doctrine has referred to three 'persons' (as I said before) but not in the sense of humans. If we believed there were three humans in the Trinity we would have said so.

By the way, here's the multiple definitions of the word 'person' - it doesn't always mean 'human':

1. A living human. Often used in combination: chairperson; spokesperson; salesperson.
2. An individual of specified character: a person of importance.
3. The composite of characteristics that make up an individual personality; the self.
4. The living body of a human: searched the prisoner's person.
5. Physique and general appearance.
6. Law. A human or organization with legal rights and duties.
7. Christianity. Any of the three separate individualities of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, as distinguished from the essence of the Godhead that unites them.

Tamara224

01-27-2006, 07:19 PM

[QUOTE=Tamara224]They are both God and therefore equal, but God the Father is the 'head.' QUOTE]

Do you realize what you just said...it's exactly what I said about not being equal. One can't be co-equal and yet have one member be head over the other. Yes God is the "head" of Christ....what Paul said is what I've been trying to get you to understand. What is the Christ? Christ is the HUMAN Messiah. God is always over humanity. In better understanding Jesus Christ would be better translated as Jesus THE Christ. Jesus the Messiah.

I think you're not comprehending what Christ is. When you can grasp that, you will understand where I'm coming from. Christ/Messiah was a human, that was to bring redemption to mankind from God. God Himself, became the Christ/Messiah

Um...Oookaaay. Sure. I said exactly the opposite of what you said - how can it be the same thing? I said that two can be equal and yet have one be the leader at the same time. One being a leader does not mean they are not equal. It's similar to the legal function of the entity called a 'partnership'. All partners are equal, but sometimes there is a Senior Partner. The junior partner is equal to the senior partner, but when it comes down to a decision, the Senior partner leads the way and the junior partner chooses to defer.

Also, the Koine Greek word translated as 'head' in that passage is kephale which does not conote superiority or governance - the concept is strange to English speakers. Kephale, when used to refer to people, denotes a leader among equals - a 'point man' so to speak who is the end of the line decision maker but is not superior to others. Kind of like King Arthur and the Knights of the Round Table - Arthur was supposed to be the first among equals.

I think it is you who does not understand who Jesus is. He was God, was with God as the Son of God always and forever. There has never been a time when there wan not the Son of God. The Son of God is the one who put on flesh and dwelt among us to become the Passover Lamb. The Son of God made appearances in the OT too, before He became a man. God the Son became a man while God the Father did not.

Also, how many times do I have to say that I believe Jesus is God and therefore God Himself became the Messiah? I've never said otherwise. It does not restrict Christ's God-ness to say that God the Father did not put on flesh. Since they are both One God they both remain One God while Christ was flesh. Christ didn't give up his diety, just the appearance of his diety, while he walked among us.

OneJoe

01-27-2006, 07:22 PM

EnterHisPresence

01-27-2006, 07:24 PM

I wasn't saying we were agreeing...I was saying that you are saying exactly my argument/point.

OneJoe

01-27-2006, 07:25 PM

Correction: those verses show two of the entities in the Godhead.

blueheron32

01-27-2006, 08:06 PM

enter his presence...

Joh 3:13 And no one has gone up into Heaven, except He having come down out of Heaven, the Son of Man who is in Heaven.

as to your contention that the son of Man...could not be omnipresent...the above verse shows that Jesus himself claimed he was both on earth and in heaven at the same time...ummm...looks like omnipresence to me....:-)

blue....

EnterHisPresence

01-27-2006, 08:15 PM

Blue...I think that was my point...God can be everywhere at once.

not4gotton

01-27-2006, 08:44 PM

I tell you what ! You work on your comprehension and I'll work on my communication skills .....lol

Where are these three that you keep talking about....? IF All of the fulness of the Godhead dwells in Jesus then according to trinity there were three different beings inside him.......
You said yourself that Jesus is the creator.......I say God was in Christ ...the same God (which is a Spirit) that moved upon the waters in the beginning Gen.1:2
There is One Spirit which is God Not three seperate persons in the Godhead.
God is not divided. God the Father in unity with His son Jesus. One Spirit and one Flesh.

not4gotton

01-27-2006, 08:57 PM

Jesus was on earth and in heavenly places at one time ..lol like I always say it takes a spiritually minded person to understand the Spirit.
The flesh of Jesus was on earth, but the Spirit inside of Him ( which was and is God) is everywhere at all times..

germanJoy

01-28-2006, 05:05 AM

Heresy, heresy, heresy, nothing but a HERESY. That is exactly what happens, EnterHisPresence and Not4gotton, if you CUT the Scriptures and make your OWN DOCTRINE out of it to support the false teaching of the antichrist to deceive the whole world about the Lord Jesus Christ.

....."Come up here, and I will show you what must take place after these things. Immediately I was in the Spirit; and behold, a throne was standing in heaven, and One (God the Father) sitting on the throne. And He who was sitting was like a jasper stone and a sardius in appearance; and there was a rainbow around the throne, like an emerald in appearance. And around the throne were twenty-four elders sitting, clothed in white garments, and golden crowns on their heads. And from the throne proceed flashes of lightning and sounds and peals of thunder. And there were seven lamps of fire burning before the throne, which are the seven Spirit of God; and before the throne there was, as it were, a sea of glass like crystal; and in the center and around the throne, four living creatures full of eyes in front and behind. And the first creature was like a lion and the second creature like a calf, and the third creature had a face like that of a man, and the fourth creature was like a flying eagle. And the four living creatures, each one of them having six wings, are full of eyes around and within; and day and night they do not cease to say,
'Holy, holy, holy, is the Lord God, the Almighty, who was and who is and who is to come." And when the living creatures give glory and honor and thanks to Him who sits on the throne, to Him who lives forever and ever, and will cast their crowns before the throne, saying, 'Worthy art Thou, our Lord and our God, to receive glory and honor and power; for Thou didst create all things, and because of Thy will they existed, and were created."

And I saw in the right hand of Him (the God the Father) who sat on the throne a book written inside and on the back, sealed up with seven seals. And I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, "Who is worthy to open the book and to break its seals?" And no one in heaven, or on the earth, or under the earth, was able to open the book or to look into it. And I began to weep greatly, because no one was found worthy to open the book, or to look into it; and one of the elders said to me: "Stop weeping; behold, the Lion that is from the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, has overcome so as to open the book and its seven seals."

Now EnterHisPresence and Not4gotton, WATCH THIS CLOSELY OUT for this will tear the ONENESS TEACHING apart which you are holding dearly into your hearts that HAS TO BE RENOUNCED!!!!

And I saw between the throne (with the four living creatures) and the elders a Lamb standing (Jesus Christ is standing while the Father is sitting on the throne), as if slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God, sent out into all the earth.

And He came and He took it out of the right hand of Him who sat on the throne.

And He came and He took it out of the right hand of Him who sat on the throne.

And He came and He took it out of the right hand of Him who sat on the throne.

I have to repeat these words three (3) times so that IT FINALLY GETS INTO YOUR STUBBORN-MINDED brains. Jesus Christ the Lamb of God came and took from the right hand of the Father who is sitting on the throne the book to break its seal.

Again watch out what is said about the Lamb:

Worthy are Thou to take the book, and to break its seals; for Thou wast slain, and didst purchase for God with Thy blood men from every tribe and tonque and people and nation. And Thou hast made them to be a kingdom and priests to our God; and they will reign upon the earth.....
v13
To Him who sits on the throne (God the Father), and to the Lamb (Jesus Christ the Son), be blessing and honor and glory and dominion forever and ever."......

EnterHisPresence, by taking the words of Revelation OUT of context and ADD a TOTALLY NEW PICTURE of WHAT IS TO COME JUST AS IT IS WRITTEN, you have just made yourself qualified for the persons mentioned in Rev. 22:18-19 unless you repent!!!

germanJoy

01-28-2006, 05:18 AM

The verses I used above can be found in the whole chapter of Revelations and Rev. 5:1-10.

Fear God and not men and BELIEVE HIS WORD, not the words of men.

The Oneness leaders have to REPRIMAND their followers if these verses are TAKEN UP to question their doctrine. There is NO WAY for them to explain why is the Lamb seen as DISTINCT from the One sitting on the throne.

God is God. Our minds are too tiny to comprehend HIS FULLNESS. We only believe the words written in the bible because these words will judge us.

God is Spirit, very true. Revelation speaks also of the SEVEN SPIRITS of God. Who can understand that????

germanJoy

01-28-2006, 05:25 AM

Correction: Revelation 4 and 5:1-10

not4gotton

01-28-2006, 01:07 PM

germanjoy, I do not believe in one God because of teaching...I Know that there is one God because that one God has revealed Himself to me Thru His word....
Some Oneness as You call them may not agree with me...but let me again tell you what God has shown me..

There is ONE Spirit, that is GOD, a spirit of love.
Gods Spirit was and is inside Jesus Christ....."God in Christ" You can't deny the scripture says that...and also Jesus said I and my Father are one..and If you have seen me you have seen the Father...
God and the Father are the Same Spirit...are they not?

So there is Spirit(God) and Flesh (Jesus) It is not two seperate persons, it it one. Just like you and I have spirit and flesh. but you are one, made up of two things (flesh and spirit)
Because God is a Spirit and cannot be seen.....we see Jesus....that is why he said if you have seen me you have seen the Father.

God is one Spirit but He shows Himself as being our Father, and the Word, and also the Holy Ghost. That does not mean that there are three different persons in the Godhead.
John 5:7 > For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: these three are one.
These are not three Seperate beings, nor are they three seperate Godheads.
These Are the Three ways that God has chosen to teach us that He is the Only God. God has shown us that He is the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost. All three of these are one that work together to teach us that there is only One God. We cannot cut God ( the Spirit) into pieces.

John 5:8> And there are three that bear witness in the earth, the Spirit, and the Water, and the blood: and these three Agree in one.
These are three seperate things that is why they agree.

WE must be baptized in water,then the Blood is applied, and the we receive the Spirit...which is the Holy Ghost

But the three that bear record in heaven are unified as One.
God is our Father, the word, and the Holy Ghost.

Why do you think God is called the Holy One of Israel..?
Why didn't He call Himself the Holy Three of Israel...?
Because He is the Holy ONE of Israel !

germanJoy

01-28-2006, 01:58 PM

Not4gotton, there is no Holy Three but only Christmas Tree (invented by men) :LOL. Seriously, we have already pointed out many times that trinity believes in ONE God in Three distinct Persons. We never use the word "separate" which is defined as "divided, not joined or not united" for that is the wrong word. The word used is "distinct", One God revealed as the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost.

The English language offers no other more accurate word to be used to clearly describe the "distinct" personalities/identities of the Godhead. The problem arose when another group of christians wanted to tear these personalities apart and by it they break the relationship of the Father with the Son and the Son with the Father. And by this they have to use the "One God" common belief and endanger the denial of the existence of one of the Godhead. This was nothing new for the Apostles and thereby they warned christians not to have anything to do with this teaching (denial of the Father and the Son, the relationship that can never be denied) for this is the antichrist.

Who is the liar but the one who denies that Jesus is the Christ? This is the antichrist, the one who denies the Father and the Son. Whoever denies the Son does not have the Father; the one who confesses the Son has the Father also. As for you, let that abide in you which you heard from the beginning. If what you heard from the beginning abides in you, you also will abide in the Son and in the Father. 1 John 2:22

In the same manner, we can also deny the Father if we say that He is the Son and vice-versa. We need to confess both: the Father and the Son.

This is the spirit of prophecy. "Jesus Christ the Son of Man is standing at the right hand of God." When Stephan declared this word, he was stoned to death by the unbelieving jews (who only believed in ONE God) because how can this Jesus who claimed equality with God stand beside Yahweh their God? For them, Stephan was declaring two Gods... but they do not have the revelation of the Holy Spirit and thus could not comprehend it!

We do if we hold fast to the teaching of the Apostles that had been handed over to all generations....Amen!

That is the Holy Spirit now that had made you see the Holy One of Israel revealed as God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit, the three in agreement and are ONE.

Praise the Lord, not4gotton!

not4gotton

01-28-2006, 02:38 PM

:) Praise the Lord, Germanjoy !!!!!!!!
I don't think that when people say One God that they are denying Jesus ..
perhaps they just mean God in Christ......as I do.
And I don't think all of trinity believers believe in one Spirit....I could be wrong.

I think maybe a lot of people say the same things just from different angles..
When you said;
One God revealed as the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost.
That is what I've ment all along....
:) God Bless You

not4gotton

01-28-2006, 05:36 PM

God is one Spirit revealed to us as our Father, the Word ,and the Holy Ghost.
These are the three ways that the ( one ) GOD has revealed Himself to us.
God is the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost.These three are one.
Not three different Persons.
Just like I am a human....revealed as a woman ....a mother ...and a wife
but I am still one, not three. :) God Bless

germanJoy

01-29-2006, 01:48 PM

not4gotton, I need to recall your attention on that last statement of yours. You are a numerical ONE person with "different functions" (not "distinct" personalities otherwise you would be suffering from identity crisis) as a mother, a woman, and a wife. That is the teaching of Oneness which we cannot accept. They convey a ONE GOD who is the Father at the same time the Son and at the same time the Spirit. It is like you being a human who is a mother at the same time a woman at the same time a wife. And that contradicts the Trinity teaching.

God is revealed as God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit all three with distinct personalities, functions, etc. God the Father sits on the throne in heaven (since eternity), God the Son sits at the right hand of the Father (since eternity with the Father, left eternity and became man and returned to the Father), and God the Holy Spirit (since eternity hoovering around all creation and now dwells in us).

In comparison, Oneness believes in One God who is the Creator sitting on the throne in heaven (since eternity), became a Son in the flesh and given the highest name Jesus (returns to heaven and sits ALONE as a Father and Son at the same time on the throne) and sends His Spirit to dwell in us.

That makes the two teachings totally different from one another. As the saying goes, "so near yet so far".

I hope I made myself clear on this matter.

TheTreeOfLife

01-29-2006, 05:00 PM

John 1:3 All [things] came to be through Him, and without Him not even one thing came to be which has come to be.

"all things came to be through him"

John 1:10 He was in the world, and the world came to be through Him, and the world did not know Him.

Jesus has always been.

John 1:14 And the Word [or, the Expression of [divine] Logic] became flesh and tabernacled among us, and we beheld His glory, glory as of an only-begotten [or, uniquely-begotten] from [the] Father, full of grace and truth.

That which has always been, became flesh and walked the earth as human.
That very person who was in the beginning - who was with God - and who was God, John_1:1, in the fullness of time became flesh - became incarnated by the power of the Holy Ghost, in the womb of the virgin.

God and man united in one person, constituting him the unequalled Son of the Father. The eye witness testamony is more than enough evidence...Peter also appeals, 2Peter 1:16-18. John was one of the witnesses of that scene, and hence he says, “we beheld his glory,”

2Peter 1:17 For having received from God [the] Father honor and glory, such a voice being brought [fig., uttered] to Him by the Majestic Glory, "This is My Son-the beloved-in whom _I_ am well-pleased." [Matt 17:5]

God the Father was well pleased!!! Amen and Amen

Eye witness testamony not to be forgotten as was the voice from heaven at the baptismal of Jesus that proclaimed the same, and the third manisfestation in the Holy Spirit that came upon Jesus. Three manifestations of One being.

Don't take my word for it let Jesus tell it...

John 10:30 "I and the Father are one!"

Jesus is the bread of life that comes from heaven.
"You, Father, [are] in Me and I [am] in You, so that _they_ also shall be one in Us, so that the world shall be believing [or, shall be convinced] that _You_ sent Me."

not4gotton

01-29-2006, 08:00 PM

I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree:(
I see One God (numerical(1)
Showing or revealing Himself as our Father, and also showing Himself IN the Son( which is also the Word ) and also revealing Himself as the Holy Ghost.

The Jews believe in One God, which is true, but they failed to understand that the one God could be revealed in human form.That is why they became angry with Jesus, because He said" I and my Father are one". They could not comprehend the fact that God being a Spirit could be (IN) Jesus.
I have to believe the Word when it says "God was IN Christ".
And also when it said "the Word was with God and the Word was God".
I also believe that these three bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: these three are one.(John 5:7)

You said:
God is revealed as God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit all three with distinct personalities, functions, etc. God the Father sits on the throne in heaven (since eternity), God the Son sits at the right hand of the Father (since eternity with the Father, left eternity and became man and returned to the Father), and God the Holy Spirit (since eternity hoovering around all creation and now dwells in us).

From what I understand you are saying that there are three Gods.....
I guess thats where we disagree........again I see One God revealed to us as the Father, revealed to us IN the Son, (which is also the Word) and revealed as the Holy Ghost.
God is a Spirit that is everywhere at all times, He never changes.

If there were three Gods which one of them created Heaven and Earth? (I'm not trying to be rude I'm serious) the Bible just says " In the beginning God created heaven and earth and the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters. And also when He made man, trinity says that when God said "let us make man in our image " that He was talking to the Son and the Holy Ghost, did it take all three to create man? I believe it was His wisdom that He was speaking to because God used wisdom to create man. Also why does the Bible say that Jesus' Father is God if it was the Holy Ghost that overshadowed Mary Jesus' mother? Which God was His mother?

I just can't see three Gods ......I see One God revealing Himself in three different ways. And these three; the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost bear record in heaven that there is One God.
The Father says there is one, the Son,and Word says there is one and the Holy Ghost tells me that there is one.
I do see God as one with different functions....he functions as the Father, In the Son and as the Holy Ghost. I don't see Him as having different personalities. He (ONE) is the Same yesterday,today and forever.

You said:
not4gotton, I need to recall your attention on that last statement of yours.
You are a numerical ONE person with "different functions" (not "distinct" personalities otherwise you would be suffering from identity crisis) as a mother, a woman, and a wife.
I understand that I have different functions, not personalities, and I do have an idenity, but if God has distinct personalities as trinity states, wouldn't He be suffering from idenity crisis?

God Bless you germanjoy !

germanJoy

01-30-2006, 05:16 AM

I see One God (numerical(1)
Showing or revealing Himself as our Father, and also showing Himself IN the Son( which is also the Word ) and also revealing Himself as the Holy Ghost.
Your God (numerical/singular One) is "Yahud" Elohim but my God (mystical/plural One) is "Echad" Elohim. And the scriptures from the beginning speaks of "Echad" Elohim, there was NO mention of "Yahud" Elohim.

The one who believes in "Yahud" Elohim is the antichrist. His goal is to dethrone either the Father or the Son. Throughout the history of christianity, he failed to dethrone the Son in the church and now he seeks to dethrone the Father. And this is the focal point of this endless and tedious discussion about Trinity versus Oneness (there is no way of reconciliatioin because one is of the Holy Spirit and the other is of the spirit of antichrist).

Jesus Christ, the Son of God, had been with the heavenly Father from the beginning because He said so:

And now, glorify Thou Me together with Thyself, Father, with the glory which I had with Thee before the world was. John 17:5 The heavenly Father and the Son relationship had been existing before creation. Thus, God is "Echad" Elohim (mystical/plural One).

Eternal life is not just knowing and confessing God the Son but also knowing and confessing God the Father and by doing that, you are recognizing (by knowing and confessing) their relationship and attributes as "Echad" Elohim.

And this is eternal life, that they may know Thee, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom Thou hast sent. John 16:3

How could the antichrist penetrate into the church and cause confusion and division?

First, to enthrone the Father, he dethroned the Son (e.g. Jehovah Witnesses' belief that the Son is not God because for them there is only one numerical God "Yahud" Elohim and all other cults with similar beliefs).

Next, to enthrone the Son, he dethroned the Father (e.g. Oneness belief that Jesus is both the Father and the Son making Jesus fatherless because for them there is ony one numerical God "Yahud" Elohim).

What is then the true revelation of God? God who is "Echad" Elohim is the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost which makes it mystical and plural.

Trinity remains to enthrone both, the Father and the Son (and the Holy Spirit in us). Thus, they make disciples and baptize them in the name of the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Spirit.

Not only do the trinity believers of today acknowledged this but also the Apostles of Jesus Christ and their disciples. If you read all the letter and epistles, they made a standard salutation of "Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ." 1 Cor. 1:3 What do you see here? They acknowlwedged the Father and the Son. Yes, there are two and not one. So mysterious thus called "Echad" (plural one).

Abide not to the teaching of the antichrist but abide to the teaching of the Holy Spirit.

Who is the liar but the one who denies that Jesus is the Christ? This is the antichrist, the one who denies the Father and the Son. 1 John 2:22

Again, the Holy Spirit says two, the Father and the Son. It never said: the Father who is the Son or the Son who is the Father but the Father and the Son (2 not 1).

If there were three Gods which one of them created Heaven and Earth? (I'm not trying to be rude I'm serious) the Bible just says " In the beginning God created heaven and earth and the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters. And also when He made man, trinity says that when God said "let us make man in our image " that He was talking to the Son and the Holy Ghost, did it take all three to create man? I believe it was His wisdom that He was speaking to because God used wisdom to create man. Also why does the Bible say that Jesus' Father is God if it was the Holy Ghost that overshadowed Mary Jesus' mother? Which God was His mother?

You can never grasp the "Let Us make man in Our" (the Us and Our) if you keep on believing on "Yahud" Elohim. You need to uproot the "singular numerical" belief of Elohim for you to understand who and what really God is.

If you are a pregrnant human being with the Son of God in your womb, does that make you God? Of course not, you remain a human being and the One in your womb remains God. Mary was merely the earthly mother of Christ as well as Joseph was merely the earthly-acting father of Christ. They were nothing more than the earthly parents who had to raise up the child Jesus until the time when He had to be revealed as the SON OF THE LIVING GOD. When Jesus left His earthly parents home, the relationship ceased for He had to fulfill a higher call, His role as Christ the Messiah of the world.

I understand that I have different functions, not personalities, and I do have an idenity, but if God has distinct personalities as trinity states, wouldn't He be suffering from idenity crisis?

Only the unbelieving minds are suffering from grasping God's identity. When He being One (united God) said He is a Father and He has a Son, He seriously meant it. The unbelieving minds (as a result of revelation crisis) made a ridiculous constellation of lies and say since God is numerically One, He cannot be a Father and having a Son. Otherwise, He will be two (2). So let us gid rid of one of them!

Godsent

01-30-2006, 02:05 PM

not4gotton

01-30-2006, 05:11 PM

No one can dethrone God, even to think that is crazy.
I know that God is the Father, I also know that Jesus is the Son of God..
I also know that no one can get to the Father but By Jesus Christ.
I also know that God is in Christ..

Antichrist do not believe that Jesus is the Son of God.....people who know there is one God (One Spirit that is) are Not antichrist ! They do not deny that Jesus is Gods Son. We say the (one Spirit which is God the Father) was, and is in Christ. We are going back to the same thing here....***God the Father is One Spirit revealed as the Son, the Word and the Holy Ghost.***

Germanyjoy you said:
He cannot be a Father and having a Son. Otherwise, He will be two (2). So let us gid rid of one of them!

*God Is the Father of the Son, and I thought that you believed in three Gods...why do you want to get rid of one????*

1 Cor.12:4> Now there are diversities of gifts, but the Same Spirit. V.6 > And there are diversities of operations, But it is the Same God that worketh All In All...
Eph.4:4-6 > There is one body, and One Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling: One Lord, One faith, One Baptism, One God and Father of all who is above all, THROUGH all and In you all.

There is not three persons in the Godhead....there is one Spirit which is God and His Son Jesus Christ ! One Spirit ( God )and one flesh ( Jesus Christ)
Jesus Christ Is the Son of God ! People who believe the scripture when it says there is one Spirit are NOT denying Jesus...You should not call them antichrist......God knows the heart !

**And now, glorify Thou Me together with Thyself, Father, with the glory which I had with Thee before the world was. John 17:5 **
God our Father did glorify the Son.....and He was with the Father.....He came out from the Father.....just like a child comes from their Father.
That is why Jesus said "I and my Father are one" ! I don't have a problem understanding who Jesus is ! I know the idenity of God ! He is the Spirit that was and is in the Flesh of Jesus Christ....God in Christ !!!

Mary was surely Not God ..a human and a Spirit are different..
Jesus Is the Son of God because He was begotton By God ( the Holy Ghost)
And thats another reason I do not believe in three Gods ...the Holy Ghost is Gods Spirit.....I'd come near beliving in two than three.

There are not three "persons" in heaven sitting on the throne.
There is One Great Spirit which is God the father....and Jesus Christ His Son (flesh)
We cannot see God because He is a Spirit, but we see Jesus Christ the Son of God sitting on the right hand of the Father.

I thank the Lord for showing me who He is, and how He has revealed Himself to mankind. But it is the Same God which worketh all in all. Amen.

germanJoy

01-31-2006, 04:11 AM

...people who know there is one God (One Spirit that is) are Not antichrist !

Actually all teachings of the antichrist imply that there is absolutely only One God (One Spirit that is). Antichrist according to Scriptures teaches to deny either the Father or the Son so that makes them a STUBBORN BELIEVER of ONE GOD!

Germanyjoy you said:
He cannot be a Father and having a Son. Otherwise, He will be two (2). So let us gid rid of one of them!
*God Is the Father of the Son, and I thought that you believed in three Gods...why do you want to get rid of one????*

Not4gotton please read my sentences carefully for complete understanding. I said that the antichrist teachers (not germanJoy) think like this: "He cannot be a Father and having a Son. Otherwise, He will be two (2). So let us gid rid of one of them!"

Eph.4:4-6 > There is one body, and One Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling: One Lord, One faith, One Baptism, One God and Father of all who is above all, THROUGH all and In you all.

Yes exactly not4gotton, One Lord (Jesus Christ), One God and Father of all (the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ who is also our God).

Mary was surely Not God ..a human and a Spirit are different..
...

There you recogized that a human (flesh) and a Spirit are different. But here you did not:

There are not three "persons" in heaven sitting on the throne.
There is One Great Spirit which is God the father....and Jesus Christ His Son (flesh)
We cannot see God because He is a Spirit, but we see Jesus Christ the Son of God sitting on the right hand of the Father.

You are seeing Jesus Christ here in the flesh sitting at the right hand of the Father. So you just expressed your belief that Jesus Christ is not God (a Spirit) but a flesh. That makes your constellation a candidate for the belief of the antichrist teaching. How can the Son of God who is God be just a flesh in heaven??? Again, antichrist teaches this. Jesus is just a human being/flesh and not a God (not a Spirit). Do you know FINALLY see the confusion brought about by the numerical One God teaching?

Not4gotton, nobody believes in 3 separate Gods. With the use of the word "person" i.e., One God in 3 persons, Tamara made a very clear exposition of the word explaining its FULL meaning. I guess I do not need to repeat it.

Jesus Is the Son of God because He was begotton By God ( the Holy Ghost)
And thats another reason I do not believe in three Gods
the Holy Ghost is Gods Spirit.....I'd come near beliving in two than three

If you are now near believing in two, that is a good sign. However, if two would have been enough, then Jesus would have just directed to baptize in the name of the Father and the Son only. He included the name of the Holy Spirit because He is as important as the Father and the Son. For apart from the Holy Spirit, we are all deserving to go to Hell now....We will never make it no matter how we believe in the Father and the Son!!! Rejecting the Holy Spirit is also rejecting the Father and the Son.

I know that God is the Father, I also know that Jesus is the Son of God..
I also know that no one can get to the Father but By Jesus Christ.
I also know that God is in Christ..

If you remain in this, you are heading to the true revelation of Jesus Christ.

Let it be clarified once and for all that I judge NO MEN as to their hearts and their personal beliefs of who God is. What I am judging here is only the TEACHINGS of the antichrist as I feel the need to expose them in order for THE BELIEVING MINDS to be solely captivated by the true revelation of Jesus Christ. And the only basis of my judgement is founded and focused on the PURE WORD OF GOD.

May we all be enlightened by His Word so that we all see and understand the fullness of God through the greatness of the Father, the love of the Son and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit. Amen!