Christian Rock

[TheCowExpert]

Hey there.
I just wondered if you thought listening to Christian Rock was OK?

[swight316]

I wouldnt see why it wouldn't be OK.

The lyrics, praise, and worship are still there, but the beat by which it is delivered is changed. I think God would be happy that man has found creative ways to praise and glorify Him.

When it comes down to it--metal, rock, rap, jazz, whatever--as long as the artists are spilling their love for God, that's the main point.

Just what I believe.

Sam

[jfreakgirl]

Amen!

[TheCowExpert]

To whom were you saying "Amen"? I have been taught that it is wrong.

[EnterHisPresence]

Why would amen be wrong? It's a word used to declare "truth," such as "that's the truth." According to Nave's:Amen A word used to reinforce a statement

[Burning4u]

Hey there.
I just wondered if you thought listening to Christian Rock was OK?
i think its definetly ok, i love christian rock myself: like barlow girl and superchick

[CheeseKing]

Now, that all leads to another subject, in which I am not trained very well in, but I can bring forth info, if I am forced... I believe that the words of a song don't preach the message, but the music does...if the same tune that is used for some satanic cultish song, I believe the tune with christian words, are just a contradiction to its self. I believe that any tune that breaks the rules of music (yes, there are rules) can be thought of for good, but can end negative. Music can be divided into 3 categories: Good: Music that soothes the soul. Neutral: Music that does nothing. Bad: Music that hurts you, spiritually.

[EnterHisPresence]

I think I will agree with you on that. I have been to some church-group gatherings, one of which the church that I used to attend held. There were several gospel bands there. Some were really annointed. There was one in particular though, that (supposedly) had Christian lyrics (I think) I couldn't really make out the lyrics, that just really went against my spirit. As it happens, a few other members of my church felt the same way. It was almost like we were being surrounded by a demonic force. We were doing some spiritual warfare, let me tell you. I didn't know about the feelings of those other church members till after the fact. So yeah, I would say that just because a group/band calls themself Christian, doesn't make it so. As I posted on another similar thread, you have to judge whether the group is manifesting the fruits of the Spirit.

[CheeseKing]

Amen. I say amen, for I agree with what you say on that. I can feel an evil presence, when I listen to certain songs. Many will call me looney, but some of the songs made today, have some of the same rythms and styles of the songs that were used to worship satan in cults and voodooish types of songs in Africa. There was a witch doctor at one point, who became a christian. This man heard some people listening to christian rock, and he asked the christians "Why are you listening to that music?" he stated that it was the same style of music, that his tribe used to worship demons with. Be warned of what you hear. Music is its own language and speaks its own message. I only listen to classical music, but that is not entirley safe. I started getting those bad feelings from one of the pieces I liked. I no longer listen to it. When I feel the bad feelings, it is exactly how you describe it. I also recieve convictions about listening to those types of music. I am not about to take a direct assault on christian music, I just warn you all, that many types of music labeled as christian, are satanic music in disguise. Heed the warnings of your spirit.

[TheCowExpert]

Now, that all leads to another subject, in which I am not trained very well in, but I can bring forth info, if I am forced... I believe that the words of a song don't preach the message, but the music does...if the same tune that is used for some satanic cultish song, I believe the tune with christian words, are just a contradiction to its self. I believe that any tune that breaks the rules of music (yes, there are rules) can be thought of for good, but can end negative. Music can be divided into 3 categories: Good: Music that soothes the soul. Neutral: Music that does nothing. Bad: Music that hurts you, spiritually.
So you're on my side? I mean, when rock music came out Christians thought it was wrong. Why, if all we do is add Jesus' name in with the lyrics does it make it right?

[CheeseKing]

Putting Jesus' name on adultry doesn't make it right. Putting Jesus' name on stealing doesn't make it right. You have a good point. Many have put Jesus' name in songs and believe they are right on track for it, but many are doing more damage then good. I might find a few that I believe are right on track, but I find many more that are a bit off...

[TheCowExpert]

Wow. So I found a person who thinks like me? A teenage person? That's like the most amazing thing ever. I only know two other people besides me!

[soonerboy]

the term Rock is kind of vague. Rock stands for lots of music some which are very good. But if you had said christian metal I would of agreed with you since most secular bands seem to be bordering santanism

[Tamara224]

Now, that all leads to another subject, in which I am not trained very well in, but I can bring forth info, if I am forced... I believe that the words of a song don't preach the message, but the music does...if the same tune that is used for some satanic cultish song, I believe the tune with christian words, are just a contradiction to its self. I believe that any tune that breaks the rules of music (yes, there are rules) can be thought of for good, but can end negative. Music can be divided into 3 categories: Good: Music that soothes the soul. Neutral: Music that does nothing. Bad: Music that hurts you, spiritually.


Okay, I'm calling you on this...bring forth your info! :-)

How do we know which music is good, bad and neutral if we don't judge based on the words? Are there certain chord progressions that are good and certain that are bad? Or certain rhythms? How do we judge amongst them which are good and bad? Is there a rule-book somewhere?

What about a singer who takes Psalms and puts them to music? What if he accidentally used a rhythm that he thought sounded nice but it turns out some tribe in Africa that he's never heard of used that to worship demons? Does that nullify the writer's intent and does that mean that everyone who sings the psalm is worshipping devils even though the words and thoughts are intended to give Glory to God?! How was that song-writer supposed to know it was evil?

What about a song with no words? Can a non-believer happen to put a song together that glorifies God even though they had no intention of doing so?

Also, consider this.... David wrote most of the Psalms, right? And those were put to music. From everything we know, the music they were put to probably sounded very similar in style to the music used for many purposes during that time period. Purposes such as dancing slave girls and entertainment for the harem. Common musical themes and chord progressions used harmonic minor keys on the harp and/or flute, accompanied by tambor and drums. What distinguished David's psalms from other music? It wasn't the rhythm or chord progression. It was the words and the intent.

Also, I firmly believe that the things of Satan are always a perversion of what God intended for Good. God gave humans the ability to hear music and to appreciate it. If you stop and think about what music is, you can't help but wonder about our ability to distinguish beauty in sounds depending on their arrangment. God gave us that ability and I don't think there is any combination of sounds that are inherently evil. Satan has twisted the blessings God gave us to make them evil. Other examples are: sex (as God intended it is a blessing, twisted it becomes sin); food; wine; etc. Just because others have twisted the blessing of God in order to worship demons or false gods, that does not mean that the blessing itself becomes inherently evil.

I agree that we should be careful not to just accept every person who claims to be a 'Christian' singer. But I think we should judge by their words - their message. The arrangements of notes, chords and rhythms either sounds good to a person or not - but it has no inherent meaning.

That's just my opinion on this. Others are certainly free to disagree. But I think I would be careful judging a person's music without regard to their intent. I think it would be unjust to hold song-writers to a standard that suggests they are doing evil even when their heart is worshipping and giving glory to God.

[germanJoy]

A big AMEN to your enlightening exegesis Tamara, Praise the Lord! :)

The "traditional" christians up to this date find clapping of hands, making 'soft' noise, loud singing, dancing, etc. to be of the devil because of their "traditional" mentalities and ignorance of God's Word. They think since worldly people dance, sing, merry and make loud noise, christians in the churches should do the opposite. What a foolishness and unbiblical thought the devil could bring into the minds of believers!

So, what does the Word of God says: Hear ye, all that has breath!!!

PRAISE the Lord!
Praise God in His sanctuary, Praise Him in His mighty expanse. Praise Him for His mighty deeds; Praise Him according to His excellent greatness.

How does one do the above verse? in the following verses, we are told how...

Praise Him with trumpet sound; Praise Him with harp and lyre, Praise Him with timbrel and dancing; Praise Him with stringed instruments and pipe. Praise Him with LOUD CYMBALS. Let everything that has breath praise the Lord! Psalms 150: 1-6

Do christians not accept Rock/Techno sounds because they are LOUD? Bear in mind that the Creator of all kinds of musical notes is God and the imitator is Satan (for Satan can never create anything; from the beginning he has been just copying.). What he does, he imitates God's musical notes and claims it to be his. What the christian musicians do (praise God for their works), they take back these notes and glorify God with it!!! :-)

[CheeseKing]

well, we can judge music by its words, sure, but music is its own language. Yes, there are actually a few books out there that talk about this subject. I believe most of the christian songs out there are meant for good. (i personally listen to hymns and sing them). The writers of songs just need to need to watch what they write and make sure the songs not only sound good, but follow the basic music rules. Songs without words can be written, that give no glory to satan. I am not saying that they immediately give glory to God, though some do. David had his own style of music, sure, but he didn't have the bass cranked up high, drowning out the rest of the song, while he screamed his lungs out. The melody should be the number one. I am not judging their intent and have looked into songs out there. As that is your opinion, this is mine. There are christians out there, with the intent on worshipping our Lord and savior, but (my opinion) i believe some can ebe doing it in other mannerisms. Rock came into our country, (maybe in the 1940s and 1950s, i don't really know when) but it was the new style of music. Many came to this new style and our country changed. Drugs were brought into the picture. Adultry (this can be cheating on your spouse or being unmarried). Idoltry. Rebelous behaviors. More killings. I will not directly say all christian music of today, is bad, but I will say, that you must make sure everything you listen to or put before your eyes, is pleasing to the Lord.

Romans 12:1-2 "I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that you present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable to God, which is your reasonable service. And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of God."

[dill987]

i been hearing alot about that song on this forum but i never heared it ever where do i get it.

[CheeseKing]

I, at no time, said it was because the loudness, that makes a song bad, but I will say, if it is so loud that it hurts your ears, you might want to turn it down. Classical music can be played really loud. Hymns can be sung really loud. I did not say that cymbals and drums are all together bad, either. I agree, that we should shout to the Lord in praise and song, but I just disagree with certain styles of doing that. I am not against a whole church raising up loud songs to the Lord in their churches, as long as it is pleasing to the Lord...

[Tamara224]

well, we can judge music by its words, sure, but music is its own language. Yes, there are actually a few books out there that talk about this subject. I believe most of the christian songs out there are meant for good. (i personally listen to hymns and sing them). The writers of songs just need to need to watch what they write and make sure the songs not only sound good, but follow the basic music rules. Songs without words can be written, that give no glory to satan. I am not saying that they immediately give glory to God, though some do.

Cheeseking....you didn't answer my questions. :-( I asked you to tell me how we know the 'rules' of music and you just said there are books out there. I want to know if there is a 'rule' book, who wrote it and is it Biblically founded?

I can recall no mention of any type of inherently evil musical styles in the Bible. Further, if there were really 'rules' about what made music inherently good or inherently bad, then why didn't God give those 'rules' to the Hebrews along with the laws about eating, clothing, resting, sacrificing, etc? God gave them a lot of laws/rules to follow but there is no mention whatsoever about any 'rules' of music. Expressio unius est exclusio alterius (The enumeration of things [rules] impliedly excludes those things not enumerated.)

David had his own style of music, sure, but he didn't have the bass cranked up high, drowning out the rest of the song, while he screamed his lungs out. The melody should be the number one. I am not judging their intent and have looked into songs out there. As that is your opinion, this is mine. There are christians out there, with the intent on worshipping our Lord and savior, but (my opinion) i believe some can ebe doing it in other mannerisms.

Well...you may not be judging a person's intentions...but what you are saying, essentially, is that a person's intentions make no difference if they are breaking the rules, even unknowingly. Sure people could be worshipping with other mannerisms ... what you are (or at least were) suggesting is that the 'mannerisms' they choose are ungodly despite their intent.

Furthermore, you skirted around the point of my David analogy. My point was not that David had his own style. My point was that David's style was the same style used by heathens/pagans/Baal worshippers. What made his music different than theirs was the words and intent and that he was doing it to give glory to God. No, David did not have a booming bass line with heavy drums and screamed lyrics. [Personally, I hate screaming and wouldn't even call it music]. But my point is that David used the same music as everyone else during his time - it was the contemporary music of his time. NOBODY during his time period had heavy booming bass and amplified guitars that screech and scream. What David did is no different than what Christian 'rock' artists do now. [BTW: The category of music which is classified as 'Rock' does not necessarily include screaming, drowned-out lyrics, etc. Some 'rock' songs are called 'ballads' because they characterized by soft, lyrical melodies.]

Rock came into our country, (maybe in the 1940s and 1950s, i don't really know when) but it was the new style of music. Many came to this new style and our country changed. Drugs were brought into the picture. Adultry (this can be cheating on your spouse or being unmarried). Idoltry. Rebelous behaviors. More killings.

Okay, I don't know what country you are in, so this may be true for you...but in the USA 'rock' music did not come to the country in the form of what we call 'rock.' Rock music was the result of cultural and musical evolution. Rock (as a musical style - just music not words) was most heavily influenced by jazz and gospel music. Jazz and gospel were, in turn, influenced by African tribal music, classical, hymns and various other ethnic contributions such as Basque. Rock-n-roll music is the result of the great American 'melting-pot'.

Furthermore, to suggest that rock music was the cause of increased ungodliness in the USA is arguably completely off-base. I think it is more likely that rock music is a result of the same cause as the other things you mentioned. Just as people became more violent, more ungodly, they also began to listen to rock music. The growth of secular rock music and all manner of increased ungodliness followed on the heels of the spread of secular humanism. We began taking God out of public life and relegating religion to the 'private sphere'. Society began to fall. Rock music did not cause it. Rock music is a result of it.

I will not directly say all christian music of today, is bad, but I will say, that you must make sure everything you listen to or put before your eyes, is pleasing to the Lord.

I agree that we need to be careful about what we put before our eyes and what we listen to. That is absolutely true. However, that can be done without making fence laws that steal blessings God intended us to have. God blessed us with music. Music has the ability to stir the soul in a way nothing else does. I think part of your belief is founded on this truth. We need to be aware of the effect it has on us. However, to throw out an entire genre of music and call it 'evil' because it has allegedly been used for evil is entirely unnecessary and tends to condemnation. I can only say that I am glad I have the Freedom in Christ Jesus to enjoy the blessings He intended. If I had obeyed the fence law of no 'rock' music....I would have missed out on possibly thousands of moments that drew me closer to God, that convicted me of my sins, and that gave me precious peace and joy during stressfull and difficult times of my life. I know what the Anointing of God feels like. I've felt a stronger anointing on some songs by 'rock' artists than I have on some 'worship' songs sung in church. That's because God looks at our hearts, our intent and sees when we are glorifying Him or something else.

Anybody else reading this remember the song by Audio Adrenaline called "The Houseplant Song"? Great song dealing with this issue...

[Javert03]

A big AMEN to your enlightening exegesis Tamara, Praise the Lord! :)

The "traditional" christians up to this date find clapping of hands, making 'soft' noise, loud singing, dancing, etc. to be of the devil because of their "traditional" mentalities and ignorance of God's Word. They think since worldly people dance, sing, merry and make loud noise, christians in the churches should do the opposite. What a foolishness and unbiblical thought the devil could bring into the minds of believers!

You have a valid point. Christians should not dismiss something as being ungodly only on the basis of it not fitting with their "traditional" mentality. Christ says in Matthew 15:8-9:

"'These people draw near to Me with their mouth,
And honor Me with their lips,
But their heart is far from Me.
And in vain they worship Me,
Teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.'"

However, be careful when making such hasty generalizations. In one fell swoop you've lumped together all Christians who oppose rock music, labeled them as "ignorant", "traditional", and by implication legalistic. When you say "They think...", to whom are you refering? There certainly is a class of people today who hold this view, but once again, this could very well be an exception and not the rule.


So, what does the Word of God says: Hear ye, all that has breath!!!

PRAISE the Lord!
Praise God in His sanctuary, Praise Him in His mighty expanse. Praise Him for His mighty deeds; Praise Him according to His excellent greatness.

How does one do the above verse? in the following verses, we are told how...

Praise Him with trumpet sound; Praise Him with harp and lyre, Praise Him with timbrel and dancing; Praise Him with stringed instruments and pipe. Praise Him with LOUD CYMBALS. Let everything that has breath praise the Lord! Psalms 150: 1-6

Do christians not accept Rock/Techno sounds because they are LOUD? Bear in mind that the Creator of all kinds of musical notes is God and the imitator is Satan (for Satan can never create anything; from the beginning he has been just copying.). What he does, he imitates God's musical notes and claims it to be his. What the christian musicians do (praise God for their works), they take back these notes and glorify God with it!!! :-)

First, I would say for myself that volume has very little to do with what I consider the morality of music. I like to listen to loud music occasionally myself. Especially Les Miserables Dream Cast. :-)

You say that the "Creator of all kinds of musical notes is God". While this is true, it doesn't affect the morality of the music when the notes are put together. To recognize that there's not a single evil note on the staff, and then to conclude that music itself has no inherent morality, is like saying that everything you can possibly say in English is fine because there's not a single bad letter in the alphabet. A house can be made out of the best materials but still be structurally unsound. (unsound? hee hee, no pun intended)

My contention, and the contention of many others, is that music is a language. It may not be a spoken language, but it communicates meaning nonetheless. When I watch a movie, I can usually tell pretty accurately when something bad's about to happen. Why? Because the "scary" music starts playing. What makes it scary? The words? It seems to me that there usually aren't any. Do they flash "Bad thing coming up" across the screen? Why does some music sound dark and sad, while other music conveys a sense of cheeriness?

God created ALL language. All language was created to bring glory to God. But neverthelss, language can be used in harmful ways. If music is a language, then it follows that music has the capability to communicate not just good, which is what it was created for, but also evil. If this is the case, then all music is inherently moral. It cannot be neutral.

Anyway, that's my 2 cents. :-D I'm not ready to start classifying certain types of music as good or bad yet. But I certainly do believe that's just what we're faced with: good and bad music. So yeah...great discussion!

[CheeseKing]

:) Sorry about that, I tend to get off topic...There is a man by the name of Frank Garlock, who had a video tape series and most liekly some books. I was told he also has a website...The video tape series (I did see) was called "The Language of Music" from Majesty Music. Yes, it is biblically based. I have forgot a lot of what he was saying in the movie, nut I remember he mentioned the harmonic scale, going hand in hand with biblical revelation and general revelation. Music can be unbalanced by rythm and get outside the scales. hmm, so you are saying that David went and played music to the Lord the way the heathens did? I haven't ever seen a verse, stating that David went and played music, to the Lord, in the same fashion, as the baal worshippers or others, but I could be wrong. I would love to see a verse for that. I am from the USA as well :) . Yes, rock music didn't just appear out of thin air. It did come from previous styles, but I believe that it either came from other bad types of music or it came from God glorifying music that changed...I do agree with some of the Jazz I heard, but found some of it a bit off as well.
"The growth of secular rock music and all manner of increased ungodliness followed on the heels of the spread of secular humanism. We began taking God out of public life and relegating religion to the 'private sphere'. Society began to fall."
That was what you said. Forgive me, I am not very good with these sort of things :) . I can agree with that. I will not say that rock was the main source of the fall, in our society, but I still believe it contributed. Well, if I was in a country will a Baal worshipping king, would it be right for me to kill the king? My intentions would be good. I would do it in hope of helping the nation, to be rid of such evil, being brought about my the king... that would not please the Lord. Many things are done, with good intentions, but don't hit their goal. I agree, we were blessed with music, by the Lord. I am glad to hear that you became closer to the Lord and felt the convictions. Those are the most wonderful times, in our lives. I read through the scriptures and get the same feelings. It seems we both stand on opposite sides unmoved, but I will say this (and this goes for me and all those who read this) keep an opened mind. Many ideas and beliefs are out there. Be willing to learn and accept truth when it comes. Don't always believe that you have the precise truth on every issue, for no one is completely right. There is always a place, where you are found to be wrong on an issue. Take care.

[Tamara224]

hmm, so you are saying that David went and played music to the Lord the way the heathens did? I haven't ever seen a verse, stating that David went and played music, to the Lord, in the same fashion, as the baal worshippers or others, but I could be wrong. I would love to see a verse for that.
I said that from everything we know of the history of music there is every indication to believe that David used the same style of music. There is no scriptural support for this. There is also no scriptural support for saying that he used different music. Scripture is silent on it, either way. Except that we know what types of musical instruments were used - which were the same as the gentiles of the day. So, I would love to see a verse from you that says David used different musical sytlings. :-)

Well, if I was in a country will [sic] a Baal worshipping king, would it be right for me to kill the king? My intentions would be good. I would do it in hope of helping the nation, to be rid of such evil, being brought about my [sic] the king... that would not please the Lord. Many things are done, with good intentions, but don't hit their goal.
Cheeseking....what are you talking about here?! How is committing murder in any way analogous to singing a song?!!! You MUST be able to see the difference between the two.

First distinction: the Law says not to commit murder, the law does not say not to sing songs using the same music genre as your enemies. Second distinction: How can your intentions be good when you are clearly violating God's law by murdering someone? The intentions cannot be good if you are disobeying God. [Unless, of course, God told you to kill the King of the Baal worshippers - which God did tell some people to do stuff like that...See I Samuel 15. Obviously, unlikely in our current day and age.]

Singing music that you have NO IDEA is evil with the intent of your heart being to please God by doing what he said (i.e. "Praise Him with trumpet sound; Praise Him with harp and lyre, Praise Him with timbrel and dancing; Praise Him with stringed instruments and pipe. Praise Him with loud cymbals. Let everything that has breath praise the Lord! Psalms 150: 1-6) is not the same thing as killing a King.
I agree, we were blessed with music, by the Lord. I am glad to hear that you became closer to the Lord and felt the convictions. Those are the most wonderful times, in our lives. I read through the scriptures and get the same feelings. It seems we both stand on opposite sides unmoved, but I will say this (and this goes for me and all those who read this) keep an opened mind. Many ideas and beliefs are out there. Be willing to learn and accept truth when it comes. Don't always believe that you have the precise truth on every issue, for no one is completely right. There is always a place, where you are found to be wrong on an issue. Take care.

Thank you .... I think. I find it ironic that you are telling me to keep an open mind and suggesting that I am unable or unwilling to 'accept truth when it comes.'
I accept Truth when it is presented to me and I know that I am often wrong. However, if you want to try to present 'Truth' to me ... you had better give it to me from Scripture - I don't trust any other sources.

So far on this thread I've seen people claiming that music has rules and it's a language which we have to use properly. BUT NOT ONE PERSON has presented a Biblical foundation for the idea that music can be inherently bad or good and that the meaning and intentions of the musicians' hearts have no bearing on it. NOT ONE PERSON has presented Biblical support for the idea that Christian Rock music is bad. If we are going to start making 'rules' about stuff - I WANT BIBLICAL SUPPORT! Otherwise, I say "Enough with the fence laws."

I want to also make it clear that I have absolutely no problem with a person saying they personally do not want to listen to Christian Rock. It is only when people start saying thinks like it's 'inherently evil' or the music itself is evil that I get upset. To say it is 'inherently evil' is to judge the people who write/sing/play it and those who listen to it as being ungodly without ever once looking at the fruit of their lives. That kind of judgment is not loving or kind or Christlike, in my opinion.

[CheeseKing]

Just because one uses certain isntruments, doesn't mean they immediately use them in certain fashions, as you seem to be saying. Ok, I had a bad analogy. I was just saying, one can do something with good intentions and it can come out negative or bad. Ok, yes, I am not the best analogy maker in the world, I see what you are saying and find I was wrong to put a clearly evil sin as an analogy, but to use something that looks ok, and ends up bad. My bad...I was not telling you personally, to accept truth when it comes. I was putting that at the end, to remind myself to keep an open mind, the readers, and maybe you as an extra bonus. I am not here, trying to attack, but am here to post my point and hear the opposite side. Forgive me, as emotion and meaning can be altered, in writing. I will tell you that out of all I have typed, the one thing that needs to be accepted, is that music is a language. Javert03 had a good post on that. Ok... I shall get my verses.

5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God. Romans 8:5-8

I will have to look back on what I learned a long time ago, for I have some more verses. I don't mean to offend anyone, by these posts and if I do, I am sorry. Take Care.

[Tamara224]

I don't mean to offend anyone, by these posts and if I do, I am sorry. Take Care.

Cheeseking...thank you for that, but for my part, it was not necessary, you did not offend me at all. Likewise, I apologize if anything I have written is offensive to you or anyone else. It was also not my intent. I can get pretty emphatic with my language sometimes. It's actually not as bad written as spoken - I tend to sound pretty heated when I get on a roll - it's just my 'argument' style, I guess. I'm working on it. :p

God Bless!

[dill987]

Where can I hear this?

[Bikn4God]

Sure. Unless you like Christian Country!

Rock on!

CJ
SFFS

[Warrior4Truth]

lol... :)

[Rylee]

I know that growing up, in my church (which was composed of 60+ year olds) said that it was wrong... they said that God's name has no place in such music. I never quite understood why they felt that way, to be perfectly honest. Here's what I think: different people respond to different ways. Some people are going to respond better to music, and maybe rock music is the only way to get through to them. If a non-Christian hears a Christian rock song and is inspired by the lyrics, then that group or artist has witnessed to somebody and perhaps put somebody on the right track to a relationship with God. Different people understand different things, such as some people will read the KJV and others will read the NIV or one of the many, many newer versions out there. It all depends on what hits you and what you understand. Those who are used to traditional things (usually older people) are going to have their opinion, and the youth is going to have a different opinion (notice that I didn't say that ALL older people AREN'T going to like Christian rock, and not ALL young people ARE! I'm just making a point. It's all about if you're a traditionalist or not).

[Rylee]

It depends on how God is being represented. How is the band behaving as far as their presence? What do the lyrics say? And as far as the music itself: If it's a softer rock, that's one thing. But promoting violence by smashing guitars and such probably isn't putting Jesus in a favorable light.

[dill987]

Sorry i'm asking this again but where can I hear this please tell me

[Rylee]

I'm sure that it's on a radio station in his area. You should do a search on the internet for Christian radio stations in your area. :-) Or, if you have a program such as Limewire where you can download music, look up artists on the internet to download. Or, if you don't have such a program, look up artists on the internet and invest in a couple of tapes/CD's.

[RoMan838]

I think that it's okay if it lifts us up and glorifies God. If not, turn it off! If some Christian Rock doesn't seem okay, well maybe it isn't meant for worship or strengthening the body. Some of it might just be there mainly to reach the missing/lost/not yet found. :-)

1 Corinthians 9:22 ... "I have become all things to all men, that I might by all means save some." 23 "Now this I do for the gospel’s sake"...

[JasonR66]

No offense to all of you because I'm sure many of you are very close to this subject but isn't this a bit of a trivial matter? Don't we all have bigger worries to fix and solve? Just my opinion.

[RoMan838]

I suppose in a way you are right, especially since you are only expressing an opinion. But it actually is an issue for some. For some it is even a ministry or at least a way to make a living - not trivial issues.

[JasonR66]

Hmmm, well I'll add my two cents here then.

Music, from the people I've met through my life, is just an experience for them to enjoy. Most people don't listen to the substance of the song but how the music and voice of the singer intermingle to create a sound they enjoy. What the lyrics mean and represent are usually not an issue.

For those that it is an issue, you'll listen to what represents you the best. I think Christian rock/rap/ska/hardcore/soul/etc etc is just fine to listen to. The music isn't the issue, it is the lyrics (for the type of person who would worry over this issue).

As for non-Christian music I don't think it's as big of an issue as many others do. You'll listen to what represents you best. Say you listen to a love song that is done about some fantasy person because you too are in love with someone in real life. You can relate to that song about love. That song is in no way about God or a worship song of any sort. Would it then be wrong to listen to it?

[db14]

I think that Rock music is a far better genre than many other types, and that it is the lyrics that make a piece of music matter for me. I think that the lifestyles of some rock stars, pete doherty for example, are terrible, and they shoudl not be copied or in any way seen as glamourous or good. Yet just because a few people live life with drugs and other 'bad' things does not mean that the entire genre of music is bad

[db14]

I agree. Non-christian music is not bad just because it is non-christian. I do not personally listen to music with lots of swearing in, or that says that drugs etc are good, but i like listening to music by bands such as Coldplay. Although not Christian, i think that a lot of music has a message in it that is relevant to people, just because something doesn't directly praise God doesn't mean it is evil, God gave us the gift of music we shouldn't then say that it is wrong, or only good in very specified circumstances. God gave us the gift of music, i believe, to spread feelings, and powerful messages. Not neccessarily religious ones, but secular ones about love and hurt as well.

[Whisper]

I agree. Non-christian music is not bad just because it is non-christian. I do not personally listen to music with lots of swearing in, or that says that drugs etc are good, but i like listening to music by bands such as Coldplay. Although not Christian, i think that a lot of music has a message in it that is relevant to people, just because something doesn't directly praise God doesn't mean it is evil, God gave us the gift of music we shouldn't then say that it is wrong, or only good in very specified circumstances. God gave us the gift of music, i believe, to spread feelings, and powerful messages. Not neccessarily religious ones, but secular ones about love and hurt as well.

Agreed, There have even been times that God has ministered to me through a non- christian song.

But back to the musical notes thing. I do think they carry meaning more than just a pretty sound you hear. Even classical music can lift the soul (and without words). It is a language in and of itself. Actually if you look at it -- the last trumpet is a note in a song that God has been playing for a long time now(at least for us in terms of time).

But as for the comment about evil music -- The word says to test the spirits to see whether or not if they are of God. Jesus also said that the words that He spoke were Spirit and they were life. Everything that came out of Jesus was Spirit and life because he gave of what was within him.

Whatever anyone does what is within them comes out. They can say all the right words and do all the right things and yet the spirit that comes out of them is all wrong. When someone is preaching to you or singing to you -- you recieve whats out of their spirit as much as what you literally hear and see. That's why it says to test the spirits to see whether or not they are of God.

A person can play and/or sing a beautiful highly anointed song with anger and hate in their heart and when that comes pouring out of their spirit during that song it affects you. If you receive it into your spirit you can start feeling hate and anger yourself.

[Rylee]

This board is to discuss all aspects of Christianity. It's not for just "hot topics", it's for ALL topics. If somebody has a question about something to do with Christianity, then this is the place for them to ask, even if somebody else doesn't think it's an important question.

[SemperReformanda]

JasonR66 said:
"I think Christian rock/rap/ska/hardcore/soul/etc etc is just fine to listen to."

Do people still listen to ska??

wow that brings back some memories lol :)

Jason also said:
"As for non-Christian music I don't think it's as big of an issue as many others do. You'll listen to what represents you best. Say you listen to a love song that is done about some fantasy person because you too are in love with someone in real life. You can relate to that song about love. That song is in no way about God or a worship song of any sort. Would it then be wrong to listen to it?"

Would it be accurate then to say: "all beauty is God's beauty" and " all truth is God's Truth" regardless of the source?

[Channy-Poo]

I'm against Christian Rock/Rap?etc. anything that doesn't exalt and praise Jesus. The lyrics might be just fine but there is a spirit that goes along with every type of music. Country music has a lot of love songs, right? Right. Now try putting those same lyrics into heavy metal music... doesn't sound to great. And Christian music should be a love song to God. You're not yelling at him, you're exalting him. Can you picture God smiling and head-banging up in heaven? Didn't think so... Plus, many people argue that it'll bring people into church but in fact it does the exact opposite, why would they want a cheap immitation of themselves? They already have rock and rap, whay would they want a knock-off? Just think about it...

[Tamara224]

I'm against Christian Rock/Rap?etc. anything that doesn't exalt and praise Jesus. The lyrics might be just fine but there is a spirit that goes along with every type of music. Country music has a lot of love songs, right? Right. Now try putting those same lyrics into heavy metal music... doesn't sound to great. And Christian music should be a love song to God. You're not yelling at him, you're exalting him. Can you picture God smiling and head-banging up in heaven? Didn't think so... Plus, many people argue that it'll bring people into church but in fact it does the exact opposite, why would they want a cheap immitation of themselves? They already have rock and rap, whay would they want a knock-off? Just think about it...


I think a lot of people who are against Christian rock/pop/rap/etc, have some misconceptions about exactly what type of music it is. The vast majority of Christian song-writers are writing original music and original lyrics. They are NOT simply taking a secular song and putting in Christian lyrics. The whole song, from beginning to end, is entirely written by Christians. Also, rock music is NOT SCREAMING AND YELLING. That's called 'heavy metal.' There are very few Christian 'heavy metal' bands. Christian rock is singing - it's just singing to faster tempo, or accompanied by electric guitar instead of by piano. There is a definite melody and harmony that is distinguishable and NOT CONFUSING. What a lot of people don't even realize, I think, is that there are even some songs many of us sing IN CHURCH that were written by Christian 'rock' artists and originally performed on their 'rock' CDs. They are worship songs and are very obviously annointed with the Holy Spirit.

[db14]

Exactly!

[Rylee]

I'm against Christian Rock/Rap?etc. anything that doesn't exalt and praise Jesus.
Most of it does exalt and praise Jesus... actually, that's the point of most of the songs, hence the genre.

The lyrics might be just fine but there is a spirit that goes along with every type of music. Country music has a lot of love songs, right? Right. Now try putting those same lyrics into heavy metal music... doesn't sound to great.
Actually, I've heard many country songs remade in to rock songs, and they sound better than the country version (then again, I'm a fan of rock and not country). It's all about opinion and what you like. Just because you don't like it doesn't make it wrong.

And Christian music should be a love song to God. You're not yelling at him, you're exalting him. Can you picture God smiling and head-banging up in heaven? Didn't think so...
You're confusing metal with rock. There are many different kinds of rock... soft rock, pop, emo... the list goes on. You haven't listened to a Christian rock band, have you? I assume this because I've never heard a heavy metal Christian band, and it seems as though you're trying to fit Christian rock in to a stereotype that it doesn't fit in to.

Plus, many people argue that it'll bring people into church but in fact it does the exact opposite, why would they want a cheap immitation of themselves? They already have rock and rap, whay would they want a knock-off? Just think about it...
Let me point out first: Just because you feel that Christian rock isn't up to par with other types of rock, I don't find it fair that you call it a "cheap imitation." Just because it is like another type of music doesn't make it cheap. I don't know where you got your information from, maybe you just made it up because it sounded logical, but it's incorrect. The churches that use a newer style of bringing the message (which includes using modern types of music) draws in more people than the traditional churches. This is because people feel as though they can relate to it better. As far a "knock-off", pretty much all bands are knock-offs of other bands, but people still eat them up. There's no difference between N*Sync and the Backstreet Boys, but they were both very popular in their day. They're knock-offs of each other, right?

If you don't want to listen to it, that's fine. But that doesn't mean that it's not helpful to others.

[Rylee]

Tamara - I didn't read this post before I made my own post, but I agree with what you said 100%... I think I said the same thing that you did, only longer and more drawn out... but I tried to make the same point. ;)

[Tamara224]

Tamara - I didn't read this post before I made my own post, but I agree with what you said 100%... I think I said the same thing that you did, only longer and more drawn out... but I tried to make the same point. ;)

Rylee, you made some good points that I didn't - so our posts work well together! I also agree with you 100%.:-D

[Rufus]

Most of my life I have been into bands like Metallica, Rush, Queensryche etc. and then as I became more "Christian" I moved to the CCM bands like POD, Newsboys and Michael W Smith. However, as I endevored to be true to God and His Word I was moved to discard all of rock and roll.

"Speaking to yourselves in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord;" - Ephesians 5:19

"Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord. - Colossians 3:16

"And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God." - Romans 12:2

Christians are to be a peculiar people set apart from the ways of the world. We are to sing songs and hymns and make beautiful melodies not be seduced by the rhythm of rock and roll (which by the way, rock and roll is an allusion to fornicating in the back of a car). When we embrace the worlds music and call it worship, is this glorifying to our King or does it simply appeal to our flesh?

[Tamara224]

Hey Rufus, thanks for sharing. I just have a couple of things in response:

"Speaking to yourselves in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord;" - Ephesians 5:19

"Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord. - Colossians 3:16

I simply do not see how what we are calling Christian 'rock' music is in any way opposed to these verses. I note, especially, that the second quote says "singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord" - well, that is what Newsboys and MWSmith etc are all about. It's interesting, but what we call 'hymns' now denotes an old-fashioned traditional (to us) type of music. But those songs and those styles of music were once NEW. The chord progression in 'Amazing Grace' for example would have been completely unfamiliar to the Apostle Paul.

"And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God." - Romans 12:2

Christians are to be a peculiar people set apart from the ways of the world. We are to sing songs and hymns and make beautiful melodies not be seduced by the rhythm of rock and roll (which by the way, rock and roll is an allusion to fornicating in the back of a car). When we embrace the worlds music and call it worship, is this glorifying to our King or does it simply appeal to our flesh?

I'm sorry, but yet again I do not see the connection you are making. When I listen to "Wait for Me" by Rebecca St. James - it is clear, obvious, unmistakable that she is advocating sexual purity! It's upbeat and 'rock' but it is entirely opposed to the message contained in anything by Jessica Simpson or whoever else in the World. It is non-conforming in every aspect.

The songs are NEW SONGS. New music, new lyrics - not just copied from the World and adopted. We are separate from the World because we don't conform our behavior to that of the world. Thus, our songs praise God, admonish believers to think on God and turn our thoughts away from the things of the World.

I guess I'm not going to be able to convince everyone to agree with me on this. That's fine. I have said before that I have no problem with someone who personally decides that Christian 'rock' music is not for them. But, it really bothers me when others try to make 'laws' about it.

Sing a New Song
Psalm 33:3
Sing to him a new song; play skillfully, and shout for joy.

Psalm 40:3
He put a new song in my mouth, a hymn of praise to our God. Many will see and fear and put their trust in the LORD.

Psalm 96:1
Sing to the LORD a new song; sing to the LORD, all the earth.

Psalm 98:1
[ A psalm. ] Sing to the LORD a new song, for he has done marvelous things; his right hand and his holy arm have worked salvation for him.

Psalm 144:9
I will sing a new song to you, O God; on the ten-stringed lyre I will make music to you,

Psalm 149:1
Praise the LORD. Sing to the LORD a new song, his praise in the assembly of the saints.

Isaiah 42:10
[ Song of Praise to the Lord ] Sing to the LORD a new song, his praise from the ends of the earth, you who go down to the sea, and all that is in it, you islands, and all who live in them.

Revelation 5:9
And they sang a new song: "You are worthy to take the scroll and to open its seals, because you were slain, and with your blood you purchased men for God from every tribe and language and people and nation.

Revelation 14:3
And they sang a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and the elders. No one could learn the song except the 144,000 who had been redeemed from the earth.


It appears God likes New Songs!

[Vickstikz_angel]

I love christian rock!

[sweet*heather]

i think that listening to christian rock is okay as long as it glorifies the name of the lord. i mean it sounds like the worldly music but if it glorifies God then I don't see what the problem would be. i listen to christian rock all the time. i a see nothing wrong with it.

[Rufus]

Tamara,

Thank you for your response.

The songs are NEW SONGS. New music, new lyrics - not just copied from the World and adopted. We are separate from the World because we don't conform our behavior to that of the world.

In my discernment of scripture, the expression of "New song" is not to be interpreted as an artist just wrote music and lyrics for a song that never existed before yet has the same sound of the rest of the worlds music (under this definition Marilyn Manson could qualify). Rather, I will sing a song that I would have never sung before that is unique to the world and glorifying to Jesus Christ our Lord and King as I have been renewed and choose not to conform with the world. Switching from Metallica to POD was not really a stretch for me as it was really the same fleshly music I always listened to. Even though they were new songs in that I had never heard them before, they were not new songs unto God sung due to spiritual regeneration.

When I listen to "Wait for Me" by Rebecca St. James - it is clear, obvious, unmistakable that she is advocating sexual purity! It's upbeat and 'rock' but it is entirely opposed to the message contained in anything by Jessica Simpson or whoever else in the World.

"Wait for Me" would seem like a nice song with a positive moral message but she is not singing to the Lord in this example or praising the Lord. She's singing to her boyfriend and asking him not to fornicate. This is not a psalm or a hymn and it's a stretch to say it is a spiritual song. It's interesting to compare Jessica Simpson in this example, as she too is from a Christian background and has a very public abstainance message. Of course Rebecca St. James does not give lap dances in music videos so she's definitely got one up on Jessica ;)

I am of the belief that we are currently in the time of the great falling away that is described in 2 Thessalonians 2. I am also of the belief that the great harlot in Revelation is the Roman Catholic Church and it is Rome that is working to put together a one world church (ecumenicism). The charismatic contemporary Christian music is part of this plan and Rebecca St. James by the following quote seems to be supportive of Catholic/Ecumenical leaders.

"Yes. Mother Teresa and Billy Graham have been my longstanding role models. Mother Teresa for her servant's heart and Billy Graham for his integrity."-Rebecca St. James

In addition, a large part of the falling away is relative to the Bible Version debate. Rebecca endorses the NIV, NCV and the Message and each of these translations are part of the Catholic Alexandrian text lines and there is no greater blasphemous "translation" of the word of God than The Message.

Further, Rebecca has recorded songs sung by Alan Parsons, Heart, and John Lennon. Martin Briley, who has written songs for NSync, Pat Benater, Greg Allman and Barry Manilow, has also written songs for St. James. Can two walk together unless they be agreed and by walking with these people does this make her more Godly or more Worldly?

Finally, out of six albums and 71 songs only one of Rebecca St. James' songs has the name of Jesus included in the title, Jesus Loves the Little Children (an old song). I know in the lyrics of some of her songs she will confess the name of Jesus but rarer still will she confess the name of Jesus as the Christ.

None of this is meant to pick on Rebecca St. James necessarily as these traits are consistent with most all CCM artists and most other examples are worse. Steve Camp, a CCM artist, has addressed the state of CCM music quite effectively in his 107 theses (http://www.worship.com/steve_camp_107_theses.htm).

But, it really bothers me when others try to make 'laws' about it.

I am not advocating a law rather offering one persons Biblical interpretation and encourage others. I was deep into secular rock and roll as well as "Christian" rock and roll, and I feel scripture compels us to love not this worldly music and seek the old paths (Jer 6:16) of psalms and hymns.

May everyone seek answers for this issue in prayer and the study of scripture.

[Tamara224]

Thanks Rufus. I have to say, yours is the best argument I've heard from 'the other side" (i.e. not my side :-) ) Also, I agree with you on some aspects, but I guess I wouldn't take it as far as you have taken it.

In my discernment of scripture, the expression of "New song" is not to be interpreted as an artist just wrote music and lyrics for a song that never existed before yet has the same sound of the rest of the worlds music (under this definition Marilyn Manson could qualify). Rather, I will sing a song that I would have never sung before that is unique to the world and glorifying to Jesus Christ our Lord and King as I have been renewed and choose not to conform with the world. Switching from Metallica to POD was not really a stretch for me as it was really the same fleshly music I always listened to. Even though they were new songs in that I had never heard them before, they were not new songs unto God sung due to spiritual regeneration.

I will agree with that. However, do you not think that at least some of the songs written by Christian artists, falling under the category of 'rock' might qualify as New Songs even by your interpretation? How do you know if the song was not actually a New Song? I mean, just because it has similar sounds to secular music, you are going to judge the state of the song writer's/singer's heart or spirit?


"Wait for Me" would seem like a nice song with a positive moral message but she is not singing to the Lord in this example or praising the Lord. She's singing to her boyfriend and asking him not to fornicate. This is not a psalm or a hymn and it's a stretch to say it is a spiritual song. It's interesting to compare Jessica Simpson in this example, as she too is from a Christian background and has a very public abstainance message. Of course Rebecca St. James does not give lap dances in music videos so she's definitely got one up on Jessica ;)

I deliberately compared Rebecca and Jessica for that reason - to show that there is a difference between them in that one has and one has not conformed to the behavior of the World. Also, I may be mistaken, but I'm pretty sure there are at least a couple biblical Psalms which were sung about God rather than to Him? Rebecca sings a lot of songs that are to God and about God and are praising God (even if the title of the song doesn't have Jesus' name in it). I'm not trying to defend her, in particular, but she's a good example, I think of someone who lives a Godly life and sings songs from her heart which do glorify God. She's not perfect, but who is, anyway?

Also, what is wrong with presenting a positive, Biblical, message in the form of song as a way of exhorting and uplifting fellow Christians? Is it your position that the only songs we are allowed to sing, as Christians, are songs directed at God?

I find it very interesting all the personal background info you've given me on Rebecca St. James. I don't think it's at all relevant to the discussion we're having, however. If I were to wait for someone to be perfect and hold perfect beliefs and doctrines before I could learn anything from them or before I could enjoy the talents God gave them to share ... well I think I'd be waiting a really long time. I don't wait for a preacher to be perfect before I listen to a sermon...

The issue is not whether each artist is or is not doing a good job of praising God. The issue is whether music done in a certain 'style' regardless of lyrics is inherently bad. I think we need to be discriminating in our tastes of music and evaluate each artist for what is presented. I think we just disagree as to where the line must be drawn, though.

I personally believe that if an artists music lines up with the Word of God, there is nothing wrong with it and can even be a very edifying experience. Your background is such that you associate the sounds with sin because of your past experiences. I was raised in a Christian home in which we were not allowed to listen to 'secular' music. For me, therefore, there are no associations with the sounds to sin. When I hear them, it does not bring to mind the secular similarities. I just hear the words and the melody and evaluate them for what they are, not for what they might remind me of. So it is difficult for me to understand how people can say the 'Christian' music is not vastly different from the secular. Obviously, your mind makes those associations more automatically than mine does.

I respect your opinion, Rufus, and as I hinted earlier, in my opinion yours has been one of the most well-reasoned and well-supported arguments on this thread. However, I am still convinced that the style of music has no bearing on whether it is pleasing to God. Rather, it is the heart of the singer/songwriter and the heart of the listener that determines whether it glorifies God or not.

[Rufus]

I will agree with that. However, do you not think that at least some of the songs written by Christian artists, falling under the category of 'rock' might qualify as New Songs even by your interpretation? I mean, just because it has similar sounds to secular music, you are going to judge the state of the song writer's/singer's heart or spirit?

Perhaps these are new songs, particularly songs that are remakes of old hymns such as David Crowder's All Creatures of Our God and King or Newsboys In Christ Alone. It is not my intent to judge the singers heart but to judge the fruits of what they are doing. Is it 'New' in that it is a unique sound unto the Lord or is it the same sound of the world with unique lyrics?

Rebecca sings a lot of songs that are to God and about God and are praising God (even if the title of the song doesn't have Jesus' name in it).

I understand but if an artist is on fire for Jesus Christ and he or she is writing music to glorify Jesus Christ wouldn't at least one of 70 songs confess His name in the title? I just bought a used hymnal and there are 24 songs where the name of Jesus is the first word of the song, countless others where the name of Jesus is listed within the title.

Also, what is wrong with presenting a positive, Biblical, message in the form of song as a way of exhorting and uplifting fellow Christians? Is it your position that the only songs we are allowed to sing, as Christians, are songs directed at God?

I think it becomes wrong when this is considered worship as described in scripture. It is my position that we should seek spiritual songs that encompass all three elements of music not the heavy rhythm of rock and roll. These songs should be sung unto the Glory of Almighty God and to exhort the Saints. They should not be sung for their carnal entertainment value.

I find it very interesting all the personal background info you've given me on Rebecca St. James. I don't think it's at all relevant to the discussion we're having, however.

The personal background on Rebecca St. James is so that you might know her by her fruits and to site her as an example of what is typical or worse within the CCM industry.

If I were to wait for someone to be perfect and hold perfect beliefs and doctrines before I could learn anything from them or before I could enjoy the talents God gave them to share ... well I think I'd be waiting a really long time.

We do not need RSJ or Newsboys or any other artist to worship God in song. We use these artists for our self enjoyment.

I don't wait for a preacher to be perfect before I listen to a sermon...

Concur but if you knew the fruits of your preacher were bad and he was leading you astray I would hope you would turn from him.

I think we just disagree as to where the line must be drawn, though.

Agree.

So it is difficult for me to understand how people can say the 'Christian' music is not vastly different from the secular. Obviously, your mind makes those associations more automatically than mine does.

This gets into the language of music which I would confess I am not qualified to explain as I am a new student to it so let me just point out the three components to music and how they affect humans.


Melody --> Spirit
Harmony --> Mind
Rhythm --> Body


When you have music that is heavy on rhythm (rock and roll) this music is focusing on the body or the flesh regardless of the lyrics.

"...Rock music has one appeal only, a barbaric appeal, to sexual desire--not love, not eros but sexual desire undeveloped and untutored." - Professor Allan Bloom University of Chicago

It is important to understand that music is not just a form of enjoyment but it is a language of its own.
"Music is a form of language...music is more than a language. It is the language of languages." - David Tame, Author of The Secret Power of Music

"Most rock records make their impact musically rather than lyrically. The words if they are noticed at all, are absorbed after the music has made its mark." - Simon Frith, Author of Sound Effects, Youth, Leisure and the Politics of Rock and Roll

I respect your opinion, Rufus, and as I hinted earlier, in my opinion yours has been one of the most well-reasoned and well-supported arguments on this thread. However, I am still convinced that the style of music has no bearing on whether it is pleasing to God.

Thank you for the kind words. It is new for me to be on this side of the argument. I do not expect that I can or have proven that there is fire here but I hope I have shown enough smoke to cause further investigation.

[Phinehas]

If anyone wants to hear some good Christian rock check out Break the Sword, Day of the Sword, and my friend's band Blood in the Face.

[Rylee]

If anyone wants to hear some good Christian rock check out Break the Sword, Day of the Sword, and my friend's band Blood in the Face.

It's hard to "check out" a band if there isn't info readily available on them, or they're not available for download. That's not why I posted though. ---->

The band in the bold...

Have you ever heard of the documentary Blood in the Face? It's a documentary about American White Supremacist groups. Just wondering if the name of the group was a coincidence... I only ask because of some of the posts that you've made recently in the threads regarding racial issues. ;)

[Phinehas]

It's hard to "check out" a band if there isn't info readily available on them, or they're not available for download. That's not why I posted though. ---->

The band in the bold...

Have you ever heard of the documentary Blood in the Face? It's a documentary about American White Supremacist groups. Just wondering if the name of the group was a coincidence... I only ask because of some of the posts that you've made recently in the threads regarding racial issues. ;)

It comes from the word Adam. I've not seen that movie.

And since you asked here's a site that has a Day of the Sword MP3:

http://www.freeyourmindproductions.com/index.php?p=page&page_id=mp3s

Skrewdriver is a good band as well.A friend of mine was giving away free Break the Sword Cd's. If anyones interested I cant get in touch with him. As for Blood in the Face I dont believed the cd has been released yet. But I have a copy haha.

[Phinehas]

My bad I found the site. I'll start a thread about it.

[Pahs]

I have a question... does anybody know the band Pedro the Lion? If so, I was wondering what everybody thinks about their lyrics and intentions. They are supposedly Christian, but some of their lyrics are about some very non-Christian things.

[Rylee]

Pahs - I went to the "official website" and wasn't able to find any evidence of anything Christian... not even in the bio section. That tells me something.

If you have to look hard to find any shread of anything remotely Christian, then it's probably not there in the first place.

I was unable to find any lyrics, but if the lyrics say unChristian things, then they speak for themself, don't they?

[Sonora Lynn]

I think that listening to Christian Rock is great. I am grateful that there is some great rock music out there that glorifies Christ. Who says Christian music should only feature organs and have a slow beat? I really enjoy Audio Adreneline, Newsboys, NewSong... great music that really sets my heart burning!

[db14]

may i just say a short thing.

I know people who have been brought to faith by christian rock music, just a few, but still, a few. Some of them were christians who were beginning to doubt God, but when they listened to the music such as Matt Redman and other christian bands, they stayed in the faith. At a concert called greenbelt (a christian arts festival) people go their and really discover a new dimension to their faith and become stronger and better christians.

[terrilynn16]

I think Christian Rock is awsome. I have always loved punk rock music and it is nice to see that a lot of christian bands sound a lot like rock. :)

[TerriBerri]

i agree i love Christian rock

and i think that is is a great tool if used correctly. Christian Rock is a great tool that can be used to reach out to non-Christian teens, i know a lot of teens who wouldn't listen to Gospel music but all of them listen to rock and rap because of the beat and some Christian Bands have used this tool like Switchfoot, U2 and many others, Switchfoot is one of the more popular bands right now and that's with all teenagers not just Christians, so all those non-Christian teens are listening to a Christian Band and through the music they are also hearing the word of God.

[truebeliever]

Long Live Stryper!!!! *l*

[Rylee]

***This is actually something that I meant to post in the newer thread pertaining to this topic, so I'm sorry that I posted it twice.***


I read everything above the quoted part, but it was pretty much all in reference to lyrics, so it had no barring on the point of the original question. Here is where the 'music' came in to play in your post:

This gets into the language of music which I would confess I am not qualified to explain as I am a new student to it so let me just point out the three components to music and how they affect humans.


Melody --> Spirit
Harmony --> Mind
Rhythm --> Body


When you have music that is heavy on rhythm (rock and roll) this music is focusing on the body or the flesh regardless of the lyrics.

"...Rock music has one appeal only, a barbaric appeal, to sexual desire--not love, not eros but sexual desire undeveloped and untutored." - Professor Allan Bloom University of Chicago

It is important to understand that music is not just a form of enjoyment but it is a language of its own.
"Music is a form of language...music is more than a language. It is the language of languages." - David Tame, Author of The Secret Power of Music

"Most rock records make their impact musically rather than lyrically. The words if they are noticed at all, are absorbed after the music has made its mark." - Simon Frith, Author of Sound Effects, Youth, Leisure and the Politics of Rock and Roll

Thank you for the kind words. It is new for me to be on this side of the argument. I do not expect that I can or have proven that there is fire here but I hope I have shown enough smoke to cause further investigation.

First off, you say that 'rock and roll' is focusing on the body or the flesh, regardless of the lyrics. It is only because of the lyrics that we already know are associated with rock and roll songs that we already have a preconceived notion in our heads of what rock music is. If we had never heard the lyrics to any rock song, and for the first time heard pure rock music with no lyrics, would we really find it sinful? Some may find it distasteful, yes, but hardly sinful.

Secondly, I would like to comment on the quote by Professor Allan Bloom. Did he do a study to prove this? Because to tell you the truth, it sounds like he is stating his opinion. In what context did he use this sentence?

Now, David Tame's quote --- he isn't saying anything regarding music as sinful, just that music is a language. I interpret this to mean that music can be used to communicate with people. Music has no intelligence, so it's not that music is communicating with people, but that people are listening and drawing interpretations from the melody. Is that music's fault that people are giving it a personality that it doesn't have?

On to Simon Frith --- so, the music makes it's 'mark'... for the sake of this argument, we can imply that it has been a sinful mark. So, because somebody chose to think of sinful things while listening to the music, that makes the music bad and not the person? Shouldn't the person evaulate what's in his or her heart to make him or her think these impure thoughts, or should we just go ahead and blame the music? The music did not force negative thinking in to the person's brain, because the music isn't 'saying' anything bad, only lyrics can 'say' sinful things.

I look forward to hearing other's opinions about this topic. God bless.

[lunster3000]

yes christian rock is very good and lets face it you could be listening to alot worst things not naming any!!

[Led]

...and you could listen to a lot better.

[DemonHunter]

I like christian rock, but i prefer christian screamo/metal. i dont see anything wrong with listening to it.

[beachbum24]

does the beat of the music really determine if the song is "good" or "bad"? i mean, i can somewhat understand why it wuldnt b a good idea to listen to music with satanic tunes (african voodoo music, w/e) but i think that the beat of the music has NOTHING to do with the "goodness" of it. its completely by preferance what you like or dont like, usually based on the beat. if u dont like christian rock, is it possible that it just doesnt appeal to you, or are u set on it being satanic? (personally i love christian rock: im with the person that said superchick) (does anyone have any thoughts on "mxpx"? my dad just suggested it to me, and opinions wuld b great)

[Rufus]

does the beat of the music really determine if the song is "good" or "bad"?

The beat does matter. The sound of music (irregardless of the lyrics) speaks to the minds, body and spirit of people. There are three components to music that give it balance. These three components affect the human condition in different ways:

Melody --> Spirit

Harmony --> Mind

Rhythm --> Body

(Source: Music in the Balance, Frank Garlock)

Listen to what Dr. Steven Halpern says about rhythm:

"Words are incidental at best, or monotonous and moronic as usual. But the point is, they don't matter. What you dance to is the beat, the bass and the drums. And with this mix and volume, not only is the beat sensed but literally felt, as this aspect of the rhythm section takes precedence over melody and harmony."

(Source: Music in the Balance, Frank Garlock)

God tells us the music He commands to take precedence in our life:

"Speaking to yourselves in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord;" - Ephesians 5:19 (KJV)

"Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord." - Colosians 3:16 (KJV)

Thus, God tells us to sing with melody in our heart and to sing spiritual songs. There is no verse in the Bible where God instructs us to sing music heavy in rhythm (the word rhythm does not appear once in the Bible). Rock and roll is typically identified with the heavy drum beat and with a bass guitar, these instruments generate music that is unbalanced towards rhythm. Thus, in my humble discernment, there is no such thing as "Christian Rock".

[zoegal_2008]

i listen to some christian rock and i think its ok. as long as its not like screamo type rock.

[Rufus]

i mean, i can somewhat understand why it wuldnt b a good idea to listen to music with satanic tunes (african voodoo music, w/e)

Voodoo
"Still practised in Africa and the caribbean specifically as the rhythmic accompaniment to satanic rituals and orgies, voodoo is the quintessence of tonal evil." - David Tame

Voodoo entered into America by the way of African slavery. "...by 1835 blacks would gather in New Orleans to sing and perform acts of voodoo, including animal sacrifice." - David Tame


Voodoo begat the Blues

The Blues wed Ragtime

The Blues begat Jazz
"Musicologists and historians are in no doubt that the drum rhythms of Africa were carried to America and were there transmitted and translated into the style of music which became known as Jazz." - David Tame

Jazz begat Rhythm and Blues

Rhythm and Blues wed Country Music

Rhythm and Blues begat Rock and Roll

Rock and Roll Started...
...in 1954. Bill Haley and the Comets did a song called 'Rock around the Clock'. This song was made famous due to a movie called "Blackboard Jungle" and a television sit-com called "Happy Days".
(Source: The Secret Power of Music, David Tame)

The Term 'Rock and Roll' was coined by...
...Alan Freed.

Rock-and-Roll (räk'n roll') n. first so used (1951) by Alan Freed, Cleveland disc jockey, taken from the song "My Baby Rocks Me with a Steady Roll". The use of rock, roll, rock and roll, etc., with reference to sexual intercourse, is traditional in blues, a form of popular music that evolved in the 1950's from rhythm and blues, characterized by the use of electric guitars, a strong rhythm with an accent on the offbeat, and youth-oriented lyrics.

(Source: http://www.history-of-rock.com/)

Rock and roll is a direct descendent of voodoo music.

[D S O L]

this can be a touchy subject, expecially with me, considering i play and listen to a lot of Christian hardcore music. from my opinion it's simply a different genre based on spreading Christ and whether people "believe" it is right or wrong, the lord definately works through this music and if the artist's heart is in the right place, which goes for any worshipper, this music as well as them standing up for Christ in a secular music scene, has touched peoples lives worldwide. one band that's a good example of this is As Cities Burn whom i have listened to, seen in concert, and personally met and whether u personally like the genre or not, if you look up the lyrics to some of there songs u will understand where there heart is

[ukcovergirl]

Hey there.
I just wondered if you thought listening to Christian Rock was OK?
"It's Wonderful When Everyone Can Hear One's Song,Definitely the Rock."

[Rufus]

Christian Rock -- Music From Hell!
From the "Head of the Unregistered Union of Churches in Russia." Appeared in "Life", dated 21 May, 1992

For thirty years we have suffered intense persecution. Now freedom is bringing another great harm to our churches. This damage is coming from Christians in America who are sending rock music and evangelists accompanied by rock bands. Our young people do not attend those meetings because we have all committed not to participate in secular entertainment.

This is a great burden to our hearts. Many come with Bible in hand and rock music. We are embarrassed by this image of Christianity. We do not know what words to use in urging that this be stopped. We abhor all Christian rock music coming to our country.

Rock music has nothing in common with ministry or the service to God. We are very much against Christian Americans bringing to our country this false image of "ministry" to God. We need spiritual bread... not false cakes. It is true that rock music attracts people to the church, but not to Godly living.

We were in prison for fifteen years for Christ's sake. We were not allowed to have Christian music, but ROCK MUSIC was used as a weapon against us day and night to destroy our souls.

We could only resist with much prayer.

Now, we have a time of more openness. We are no longer taken to prison. However, now it is Christians from America who damage our souls. We do not allow this music in our church, but these "evangelist" rent big stadiums and infect teenagers and adults with their rock music. We, the leadership and congregations of the Unregistered churches urge you to join with us, and we advise you to remove rock music from America.

Do not desecrate our teenagers with it. Even the unbelievers recognize it is unholy music. We call this music, "music from hell." We urge all Americans to stop giving money for the organizations of such concerts in Russia. We only want traditional Christian music in our churches.

This is the unanimous decision of all our leaders.

Peter Peters and Vasilij Ryzhuk,
Unregistered Union of Churches, Moscow, Russia, April 15, 1992

[D S O L]

This last post almost made me laugh. Honestly, who are we to judge any music that is uplifting God. Even if, to some people, it may not sound distictly Christian that doesn't mean its evil. I know people personally who are changing there life because of this so called "devil music." Not everyone likes the same kind of music, and though it may have been founded on subjects not of God that is simply its origin. It's not about origin, it's about what there lyrics speak about and where there heart is with Christ.
Not to mention, there are a lot of lost people out there who listen to rock/hardcore who would never know of Christ if it werent for Christian Rock. This condemned music not only provides a way to witness to unsaved teens and young adults, but it's a way to gain there trust and show how we are different but we r still people. I know how controversal a subject it is, but no matter what argument is put up, I know Christ is working through this music and my mind is made up.

"And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature." - Mark 16:15 -

[Rufus]

This last post almost made me laugh. Honestly, who are we to judge any music that is uplifting God. Even if, to some people, it may not sound distictly Christian that doesn't mean its evil. I know people personally who are changing there life because of this so called "devil music." Not everyone likes the same kind of music, and though it may have been founded on subjects not of God that is simply its origin. It's not about origin, it's about what there lyrics speak about and where there heart is with Christ.
Not to mention, there are a lot of lost people out there who listen to rock/hardcore who would never know of Christ if it werent for Christian Rock. This condemned music not only provides a way to witness to unsaved teens and young adults, but it's a way to gain there trust and show how we are different but we r still people. I know how controversal a subject it is, but no matter what argument is put up, I know Christ is working through this music and my mind is made up.

"And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature." - Mark 16:15 -


DSOL,

You would nearly laugh at our Russian brethren who have fought and suffered persecution for the cause of Christ? Any chance that they've got insight into this issue that you don't have?

I do appreciate your opinion though. I do wonder if you might have any scripture you might use to support your opinion? Please note that the one verse you did cite says to "preach" the gospel...I am unaware of a verse that says to "mosh the gospel", "headbang the gospel" or "rock the gospel".

Music in the Bible is always used primarily for the worship of God and the edification of saints. I would challenge you to provide scripture that encourages believers to use it as an evangelism tool. It's the foolishness of preaching that pleases God to win the lost...not rock music.

"For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe." - 1 Corinthians 1:21(KJV)

[D S O L]

DSOL,

You would nearly laugh at our Russian brethren who have fought and suffered persecution for the cause of Christ? Any chance that they've got insight into this issue that you don't have?

I do appreciate your opinion though. I do wonder if you might have any scripture you might use to support your opinion? Please note that the one verse you did cite says to "preach" the gospel...I am unaware of a verse that says to "mosh the gospel", "headbang the gospel" or "rock the gospel".

Music in the Bible is always used primarily for the worship of God and the edification of saints. I would challenge you to provide scripture that encourages believers to use it as an evangelism tool. It's the foolishness of preaching that pleases God to win the lost...not rock music.

"For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe." - 1 Corinthians 1:21(KJV)

dont get me wrong here i am not laughing at those who have been persecuted for christ. the way i look at it, people who like christian rock are technically being persecuted by this but thats besides the point. music in the bible is used for purely worship but does that make christian rock wrong? all i am saying is that this is our way of praising god through our music and tho we differ in our methods, are we not all here to praise god? i am not against preaching in any way, but i am saying that some people's preaching seems to them like they r having jesus shoved down there throats. earning there trust and friendship, and showing them christ through the lyrics we sing, the way we talk, and our behavior is a witness in itself. and i'm not claiming to be a preacher or some high and mighty person who knows all on this subject. i am simply a 19 year old musician, but i do know there is no way u can say god doesnt work at all through this music. and i dont dispute that "the foolishness of preaching" saves people but for some, our music and behavior softens there hearts to the gospel.

[Brad]

when the message is right on the mark. Watch out for idolizing.

[Rufus]

dont get me wrong here i am not laughing at those who have been persecuted for christ. the way i look at it, people who like christian rock are technically being persecuted by this but thats besides the point. music in the bible is used for purely worship but does that make christian rock wrong?

Christian rock is wrong because it is a descendent of voodoo and even the rock stars admit what Christians won't.

"Rock has always been THE DEVIL'S MUSIC . . . I believe rock and roll is dangerous . . . I feel we're only heralding something even darker than ourselves." - David Bowie Rolling Stone, Feb. 12, 1976

"My true belief about Rock 'n' Roll - is this: I believe this kind of music is DEMONIC. . . A lot of the beats in music today are taken from voodoo, from the voodoo DRUMS." Little Richard (Charles White, The Life and Times of Little Richard, p. 197)

"Rock'n roll doesn't glorify God. You can't drink out of God's cup and the devil's cup at the same time. I was one of the pioneers of that music, one of the builders. I know what the blocks are made of because I built them." - Little Richard, The Dallas Morning News, Oct. 29, 1978, p. 14A
Previous Post Regarding this Topic (http://www.christianchatforum.com/bbs/showpost.php?p=19940&postcount=31)

Christian rock is wrong because it integrates Christians with the world rather than separates them.

"Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you." - 2 Corinthians 6:17

Christian rock is wrong as the title is a contradiction.

Chris"tian (?), n. [L. christianus, Gr. ; cf. AS. cristen. See Christ.]

1. One who believes, or professes or is assumed to believe, in Jesus Christ, and the truth as taught by Him; especially, one whose inward and outward life is conformed to the doctrines of Christ.

(Source: Webster's 1913)

Rock-and-Roll (räk'n roll') The use of rock, roll, rock and roll, etc., with reference to sexual intercourse, is traditional in blues, a form of popular music that evolved in the 1950's from rhythm and blues, characterized by the use of electric guitars, a strong rhythm with an accent on the offbeat, and youth-oriented lyrics.

(Source: http://www.history-of-rock.com/)

By the 1940s, however, the term [Rock and roll] was used as a double entendre, ostensibly referring to dancing, but with the hidden subtextual meaning of sex;

(Source: Wikipedia - Rock and Roll (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rock_and_roll))

Thus, the meaning of the expression "Christian Rock" or "Christian Rock and Roll" can accurately be defined as one who follows Christ and engages or celebrates fornication.

Christian rock is wrong because we are instructed by God to sing psalms, hymns and spiritual songs and to make melody in our hearts (Ephesians 5:19 & Colossians 3:16).

There is no instruction for singing music heavy on rhythm and I suspect that one of the rare times it was discussed was in Exodus.

"And when Joshua heard the noise of the people as they shouted, he said unto Moses, There is a noise of war in the camp.And he said, It is not the voice of them that shout for mastery, neither is it the voice of them that cry for being overcome: but the noise of them that sing do I hear.And it came to pass, as soon as he came nigh unto the camp, that he saw the calf, and the dancing: and Moses' anger waxed hot, and he cast the tables out of his hands, and brake them beneath the mount.And he took the calf which they had made, and burnt it in the fire, and ground it to powder, and strawed it upon the water, and made the children of Israel drink of it." - Exodus 32:17-20

all i am saying is that this is our way of praising god through our music and tho we differ in our methods, are we not all here to praise god?

Yes we are but why not praise Him in obedience to Him? In the way that pleases Him and in the way that He instructed, rather than in the way that appeals to our flesh?

[Rufus]

i am not against preaching in any way, but i am saying that some people's preaching seems to them like they r having jesus shoved down there throats.

It is not unusual for Contemporary Christian Musicians to think that "preaching" is a bad word or to be concerned about shoving Jesus down the throats of the lost. The message of Jesus Christ can be a tough message for the natural man. It's a message of grace and salvation but it's also a message of repentance and an eternity in Hell to those who don't repent and believe the gospel. Softening the message is of no benefit to the souls of the lost. Here's what other "Christian Rock Musicians/Stars" say about preaching:

"Fuel on the Fire is a good pop/rock sound for the teenage audience. The songs deal with youth issues and situations without being preachy." - Morgan Cryer

"I don't want to preach at people." - Randy Stonehill

"My songs are not preachy." - Michael W. Smith

"I don't think people like to be preached at." - Steve Taylor

"While they [P.O.D.] don't try to ram their spirituality down anyone's throat, they hope that their positive message will have an influence on rock fans" - Pollstar talking about P.O.D.

"Should stop preaching unless that's what God has called them to" - Rich Mullins :-O

"I think we have a positive message of hope. We're not trying to blatantly preach. It all comes down to love" - Jason Wade of Lifehouse

(Source: CCM Against Preaching (http://www.wayoflife.org/fbns/ccm-againstpreaching.html))


Is it not curious that so many CCM'ers like to preach against preaching and yet this is the one thing that God says pleases Him to save the lost?

One final thought...was Jesus Christ a preacher or did he soften people's hearts through rock and roll?

[D S O L]

maybe u misunderstood me here but as i said i am not against preaching. i know preaching is what saves people and i am all for preaching. all i am saying is that sometimes our lyrics and behavioir can soften peoples hearts toward christianity if they may have a bitter attitude because of some "holier than thou" christians. and of course jesus preached and didnt soften hearts through rock and roll but times are different. and god gave us the gifts to make this music. and in my life, christ then music are two of the biggest things in my life. are u saying its wrong to combine christ and the and something christ gave me the gift to do? just understand i am not saying to play christian rock music and not preach but i am saying that if anyone needs jesus, its the secular hardcore/rock scene and preaching is only going to make them have a harder heart towards christ. and heres a question back
Are u saying that god doesnt work through christian music? and if he does then why would we hinder his work?

[Rufus]

Are u saying that god doesnt work through christian music? and if he does then why would we hinder his work?

I'm saying we have a different interpretation of what Christian music is. If you take the world's rock and roll beat and put some pretty lyrics to it, it is still rock and roll. Forgive me for using this line again but you can put lipstick on a pig but it's still a pig.

I'm saying that neither hymns, nor psalms, nor rock and roll are to be used for evangelizing to the lost as there is no scriptural support for it. I'm saying that Christian music (psalms, hymns and spiritual songs) are intended for worship and the edification of saints. I'm saying rock and roll is for the pleasure of the flesh.

and of course jesus preached and didnt soften hearts through rock and roll but times are different.

We are not instructed to change with the times. We are to be a peculiar people and we are to model our walk after Jesus Christ and His disciples. The Word of God is intended to change us, we are not to have the Word of God fit around how times have changed. Solomon said there is nothing new under the sun and if there is nothing new then we should do precisely as the Bible says and relative to music we should sing psalms, hymns and spiritual songs.

I know too that this is a hard message because you are so close to it as I once was. One year ago this month, I attended a "Christian Rock" concert in Dallas. There were 125,000 people and many of my favorite bands were there including TobyMac and Newsboys. In this sea of people I did not see much different between the behavior of the bands and audience than the behavior of Rush, Def Leppard and other worldly concerts I've attended. Perhaps the only difference was there was no violence and I wasn't offered any joints. However, the idolatry was very thick and there was very little Jesus talk. In addition, the women dressed like the world and wore tight clothes and showed lotsa skin.

I was unsettled by that experience and decided to give up the music for a little while and asked God to show me what was going on. After a couple weeks I dug into the Word and the Word says something completely different than what the world is doing. What I've discovered since then too is that rock and roll is addictive and people that are hooked to it defend it hard and have a really difficult time letting go of it. I've encouraged this of others and I'll encourage it to you as well. Take a 30 day fast from it, don't listen or play a stitch of rock and roll. Pray and study the Word of God during this time and after 30 days see if your perspective hasn't changed a bit.

[D S O L]

apparently we disagree very much on this subject but i dont see rock and roll (the actual music) to be of the devil and as long as i see people changed through this music i will continue. and also this is a way for me to put my beliefs out for all to see. i am not putting down your beliefs because i also dont agree with the tight clothes and all that goes on at some concerts but still. and the way i see it christ doesnt change but we do. i mean do u walk around in robes and sandels all day? as clothes change so does music. i am tired of this debate because theres no way i am changing how i believe toward this. if it wasnt of god, he would have showed it to me, my friends, pastor, etc a long time ago. anyways i do see that u r very in love with christ so i dont doubt your heart so i'll leave this be and god bless.

[Rufus]

and the way i see it christ doesnt change but we do. i mean do u walk around in robes and sandels all day?

I see no scriptural support for a requirement to walk around in robes and sandals all day.

However, I do see scriptural support for a requirement to sing hymns, psalms, spiritual songs and making melody [not rhythm] in your heart to the Lord:

"Speaking to yourselves in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord;" - Ephesians 5:19 (KJV)

"Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord." - Colossians 3:16 (KJV)

i am tired of this debate because theres no way i am changing how i believe toward this.

No way? Even if God shows you something different? I didn't expect you to change your mind about this...no one does while they're under the influence. However, the seed has been planted and I suspect that deep down you know the message I'm telling you is truth. The only way to know for sure will be to separate from it for a time and test your beliefs against scripture.

if it wasnt of god, he would have showed it to me, my friends, pastor, etc a long time ago. One can not just sit back and expect God to show him/her a bunch of stuff. God shows things to people who study his word.

"Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth." - 2 Timothy 2:15

If you want to see what things are of God seek it out in scripture, not in your friends or pastor.

anyways i do see that u r very in love with christ so i dont doubt your heart so i'll leave this be and god bless.

Grace be unto you and peace.