Question on John 20

[EnterHisPresence]

Tonight while reading, I discovered something new- at least new to me. I'm interested in comments on these verses especially vs 23.

Joh 20:21 Then said Jesus to them again, Peace be unto you: as my Father hath sent me, even so send I you.
Joh 20:22 And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:
Joh 20:23 Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained.

[OneVoice]

Tonight while reading, I discovered something new- at least new to me. I'm interested in comments on these verses especially vs 23.

Joh 20:21 Then said Jesus to them again, Peace be unto you: as my Father hath sent me, even so send I you.
Joh 20:22 And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:
Joh 20:23 Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained.

The transaltors of the KJV used broad spectrum words where they had no time to chase sown accurate pinpoint translations based not only on word to word translation (which isn't possible when languages have differnet number os letters and word) and phrasing and cultureal considerations.
But thet had the premission of the king to tdefy the RCC and translate the latin to english.
There are more modern translations which use older autograoha and mush more extensive research to creat more "on target" to word in prhrase , in context, meanings.

"remitt" is not the best or the most accurate word there.
21Again Jesus said, "Peace be with you! As the Father has sent me, I am sending you." 22And with that he breathed on them and said, "Receive the Holy Spirit. 23If you forgive anyone his sins, they are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven." (NIV (http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/?action=getVersionInfo&vid=31))


19On the evening of that day, the first day of the week, the doors being locked where the disciples were for fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood among them and said to them, "Peace be with you." 20When he had said this, he showed them his hands and his side. Then the disciples were glad when they saw the Lord. 21Jesus said to them again, "Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, even so I am sending you." 22And when he had said this, he breathed on them and said to them, "Receive the Holy Spirit. 23If you forgive the sins of anyone, they are forgiven; if you withhold forgiveness from anyone, it is withheld." (ESV (http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/?action=getVersionInfo&vid=47))

and consider this also with
Matthew 6 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=6&version=31&context=chapter)
9"This, then, is how you should pray:
" 'Our Father in heaven,
hallowed be your name,
10your kingdom come,
your will be done
on earth as it is in heaven.
11Give us today our daily bread.
12Forgive us our debts,
as we also have forgiven our debtors.
13And lead us not into temptation,
but deliver us from the evil one.[a (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=6&version=31&context=chapter#fen-NIV-23296a)]' 14For if you forgive men when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. 15But if you do not forgive men their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins.

That is a comment of personal forgivness of others who sin against us.

Matthew 10:8 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=10&verse=8&version=31&context=verse)
...Freely you have received, freely give.
Matthew 10:7-9 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=10&verse=7&end_verse=9&version=31&context=context) (in Context) Matthew 10 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=10&version=31&context=chapter) (Whole Chapter)

Now... if I undersatdn the RCC teachings correctly, what is taught in Catholisism is tha Peter was the first Pope and that Jesus gave him and the desciples the mean and poser to absolve others of sin.
That the Pope and the Catholic pirests to day are permitted to remove sin, forgive sin, to in effect save the soul without the person seeking salvation in Christ.

This is what the Roman Catholisism teaches.
BUT, in the BIBLE Jesus has said.


John 14:6 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=50&chapter=14&verse=6&version=31&context=verse)
Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.
John 14:5-7 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=50&chapter=14&verse=5&end_verse=7&version=31&context=context) (in Context) John 14 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=50&chapter=14&version=31&context=chapter) (Whole Chapter) Jesus is our only means of redemption. he is our ownly hope of salvations. he alone interdeeds between us and the father.

And only He, through His completed work on the cross an save us from the deserved judgment and death we earn when we sin, even once.

But God loved us so much that He gave His Son and doid not spare Him all His won wrath deserved by us, that we may be forgiven and LIVE in Christ.

It is more than reasonable for Jesus to not only ask that we forgive as we are forgiven and that we should expect to be forgiven as good as we firguive, but also to hand down a new Commandment.

John 13:34 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=50&chapter=13&verse=34&version=31&context=verse)
"A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another.
John 13:33-35 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=50&chapter=13&verse=33&end_verse=35&version=31&context=context) (in Context) John 13 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=50&chapter=13&version=31&context=chapter) (Whole Chapter)

Love eachother as He has loved us. And He has loved us with a perfect, unalterable, unwavering, and UNCONDITIONAL love.
What ever we have done, how ever many times, He loves us.

Romans 5:8 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=52&chapter=5&verse=8&version=31&context=verse)
But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.
Romans 5:7-9 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=52&chapter=5&verse=7&end_verse=9&version=31&context=context) (in Context) Romans 5 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=52&chapter=5&version=31&context=chapter) (Whole Chapter) These passages are about forgivness and how we are to love eachother for the sake of the blood of the Lamb that bought us.
Forgive us our sins against YOU [God] as we forgive those who have sinned against us.

he not olny waits ready to do it, but will even change our hearts by His Spirit, to be like His so we can forgive.

I hope these passages are a help to you.
Please read them and consider God's message to us through His reliable word. Take God's word for it, and no one else's

OneVoice

[germanJoy]

Verse 23 is a very interesting and puzzling statement of Christ that not so much of it is heard neither in the pulpit nor on bible studies. It is a great idea to start up a thread on this topic which I am think is very challenging. I too would like to know what others think about it. :-)

My "own personal" understanding of John 20:21-23 is that Jesus at this time had imparted His whole authority and power to forgive and retain sins to His disciples (representing His body) by breathing the Holy Spirit on them (indwelling of the Holy Spirit). Since He was leaving them, the remaining disciples had to be the ambassadors of Christ... representing Christ on the earth, being the body of Christ possessing the fullness of Christ Himself. They had to do EXACTLY everything what Jesus did when He was on earth. I guess the disciples also did what they were instructed to do including forgiving and retaining of sins. Jesus also forgave the sins of many and likewise condemned (in a way retained) the sins/hypocricy of the Pharisees. He even imputed an unpardonable sin of the blasphemy of the Holy Spirit to them. In the same way, Jesus gave this same kind of authority (imputing unpardonable sin) to ALL His disciples.

[EnterHisPresence]

GermanJoy...that is the conclusion that I have come up with. I think it is more than just forgiving people that have wronged us. I believe it is intercession on the half of the non-believer. I can remember asking for forgiveness for people that I have been interceding for, but I didn't realize what I was actually doing untill last night, when these verses just sort of spoke out to me. Jesus said everything I have done, you will do and more. He forgave sins. We are the ambassadors of Christ. Praise God!!

[Godsent]

Tonight while reading, I discovered something new- at least new to me. I'm interested in comments on these verses especially vs 23.

Joh 20:21 Then said Jesus to them again, Peace be unto you: as my Father hath sent me, even so send I you.
Joh 20:22 And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:
Joh 20:23 Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained.
Ok im gonna start with verse 21 and work my way down to 23...in verse 21 i take it to mean that as believers we are not meant to enjoy his peace selfishly and that we should share it with others...God was all perfect in his ways and his ultimate goal was the cross and our ultimate goal should be to bring what he gave us on the cross to others we should witness for him God sends us to go out and witness and to love and pray for our enemies. As for verse 22 i think it means that God breathed into them the fullness of the Holy Spirit so that they could speak in tongues good and that they would continue to do his work to the best of their abilities. As for verse 23 i believe that the disciples were given the ability to delcare sins forgiven and to make people aware that if the people continued in their sins and died then they would perish eternally...Special authority was given to them by God to deal with certain sins. Take a look at Acts 5:1-11 with the apostle Peter. Also take a look at Pauls retaining of sin in 1 Corinthians 5:3-5,12-13, and remitting sin of 2 Corinthians 2:4-8. Take care God bless...

[not4gotton]

You are right Godsent ! The disciples were told to go into all the world baptizing all that believe! And baptism is for "the remission of sins"
Sins must be remitted thru baptism.....some do not believe that it is important but it is !

Joh 20:21 Then said Jesus to them again, Peace be unto you: as my Father hath sent me, even so send I you.
Joh 20:22 And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:
Joh 20:23 Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained.

Godsent said the truth >
As for verse 23 i believe that the disciples were given the ability to delcare sins forgiven and to make people aware that if the people continued in their sins and died then they would perish eternally...Special authority was given to them by God to deal with certain sins. Take a look at Acts 5:1-11 with the apostle Peter. Also take a look at Pauls retaining of sin in 1 Corinthians 5:3-5,12-13, and remitting sin of 2 Corinthians 2:4-8.
And Acts 2:38 also Acts 22 :16 Paul was told to arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.

[blueheron32]

One thing we do know is that only God can forgive sins...so any forgiving of sins would have to be a declaration by the disciples of a fact already accomplished by God as a prior action. In other words, God does not forgive sins in response to the disciples actions, but the disciples declare sins forgiven on the basis of Gods action.

the verse in question, may be better translated literally emphasizing the verb tenses in this way....

Whose soever sins you forgive, shall be, having been forgiven, and whose soever sins you retain, shall be, having been retained.

blueheron32