When/ Did God Create Hell!?!

[polishskaterguy]

no where in genesis is hell mentioned. nor is satan mentioned.
when did lucifer reject God, become prideful, and leave God's kingdom with other angels?

everything in God's creating was good right?

well then how did God create hell.


if everything was good there is no reason for hell!

SO HOW DOES THIS WORK!!!?!?!

[SemperReformanda]

I believe it occured in between Gen 1:1 and 1:2.. I could throw out some reasons why if you want but i confess up front that the scritpural evidence is sketchy at best.

However. If so, then it would have been created prior to the 7day creation. Which would mean even Hell is good as a means of Glorifying its creator. As his Justice and wrath and holiness would be demonstrated through the punishment of the rebellious angels. not good for them, but good for God and all who love him.

[germanJoy]

no where in genesis is hell mentioned. nor is satan mentioned.
when did lucifer reject God, become prideful, and leave God's kingdom with other angels?

everything in God's creating was good right?

well then how did God create hell.


if everything was good there is no reason for hell!

SO HOW DOES THIS WORK!!!?!?!
Hi polishskaterguy! The word "hell" (otherwise known as "Sheol or Hades") is first mentioned in Deut. 22:22 For a fire is kindled in My anger, and burns to the lowest part of Sheol". From here, we can imagine that hell is a place of fire of God's anger. Jesus mentioned it in Luke 16:22-31 when the rich man was in a fiery hell in agony: And he cried out and said: 'Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus (poor man), that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool off my gonque, for I am in agony IN THIS FLAME."

Satan is referred in the bible as the devil also known as:

the serpent - Gen 3:1-14 Rev. 12:9, 20:2

Lucifer, son of the dawn fallen from heaven - Isaiah 14: 12-14

King of Tyre- Ezekiel 28:12-19

If you read all these, you will get to know more why Satan fell. He wanted to become like God. He was a beautiful creation (created in beauty and wisdom and perfection) until he fell. I want to point out that God created everything good, angels and men but both have free will. The difference is that if angels sin/disobey, they are eternally punished. But if a man sins/disobeys, God grants forgiveness if he repents. Why? I guess because man is made in the image and likeness of God. Therefore God became man to bring man back to Him. :)

I hope this helps.

[OneJack]

Peace be to you polishskaterguy and germanjoy. I am OneJack from the republic of banana plantation. I have just noticed that the book of genesis is being taken into consideration with respect to creation as good in totality and this maybe fine for the fact about this book seems to be well accounted for. However, in the latter part of the post, there seemed to be confusion as to the creation of hell which if we will consult the bible, we can clearly see the detail of hell in the book of revelation together with those who will be thrown out in that lake of fire. Just asking, are we to accept some books that we like and to reject some which we do not like or which we only overlooked somehow. With these various religious fora on the website dealing on discussion like this, many answers citing bible verses always crop up depending on how the reader understand what he/she had read from the bible. Do you guys see any possible method by which we can put an end to this never ending discussion in general as we can see in many bible fora/exposition and the like - something in which the explanation maybe acceptable to majority if not to all. May God be with us here.

[germanJoy]

Peace be to you polishskaterguy and germanjoy. I am OneJack from the republic of banana plantation. I have just noticed that the book of genesis is being taken into consideration with respect to creation as good in totality and this maybe fine for the fact about this book seems to be well accounted for. However, in the latter part of the post, there seemed to be confusion as to the creation of hell which if we will consult the bible, we can clearly see the detail of hell in the book of revelation together with those who will be thrown out in that lake of fire. Just asking, are we to accept some books that we like and to reject some which we do not like or which we only overlooked somehow. With these various religious fora on the website dealing on discussion like this, many answers citing bible verses always crop up depending on how the reader understand what he/she had read from the bible. Do you guys see any possible method by which we can put an end to this never ending discussion in general as we can see in many bible fora/exposition and the like - something in which the explanation maybe acceptable to majority if not to all. May God be with us here.
Hi Onejack I do not know what was confusing on the explained "hell creation" compared to what is written in the book of revelation. Can you be more specific? There was not even a real discussion made on this particular post yet. Had you addressed your concerns about endless discussions regarding bibles verses on other topics (like "freewill versus predestination", "tonques", "women teaching in church", etc), I would have understood your point.

Well, in my own personal opinion it would be great if all of us here will be united in faith and in knowledge (that is the prayer lifted to the Lord). However, this is not the case yet because we are still working on it through the grace and work of the Holy Spirit. Although we are one in Spirit, the unity of the mind is still to be attained. The reason is that some (if not most) of us here come from different backgrounds, denominations or schools of thought. The bible fora or group you mentioned where discussions are acceptable to majority, if not all, consists of individuals coming from one school of thought. But it is not the condition here, everybody with different views are welcomed and may expressed his/her opinions freely without being rebuked (unless the message is obviously evil).

I believe that the Apostles and all the early believers themselves were dealing with their personal indifferences on opinions and discussions. Questions were asked, different answers were given. Peter was a fisherman, uneducated, simple-minded and filled with the Holy Spirit. Paul was an ex-Pharisee, educated, intelligent, broad-thinker and filled with the same Spirit. There were surely conflicts. Therefore Paul wrote he will not build on someone else's work where the gospel is already preached; he recognized the conflict. Peter likewise expressed his difficulty of not understanding some Paul's writings. After all, they too were all humans faced with limits and weaknesses; no one was exempted for possible mistakes.

The problem today is some christians think or at worst accused another to be not of God just because he thinks differently. Paul had an answer to this and I quote:

with all humility and gentleness, with patience, showing FOREBEARANCE TO ONE ANOTHER in love, being diligent to preserve THE UNITY of the Spirit in the bond of peace.......until WE ALL ATTAIN to the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a mature man, to the measure of the stature which belongs to the fulness of Christ. Eph. 4:2-13

Thus, they were united in Spirit but the unity of faith and knowledge of God STILL HAD TO BE ATTAINED. And we the last day believers are on its way.....that the FATHER be glorified in the Son...:-)

[OneJack]

Actually germanjoy, I was referring to the query of polishskaterguy when he was asking if everything was good in creation, then how did God created hell followed by two more questions which to my mind, he was able to accept the book of genesis, but he cannot accept the book of revelation where hell is clearly mentioned or that he may have overlooked that book either. He seemed confused in my understanding, hence I said those things. But I stand to be corrected polishskaterguy if that is not what you mean in your post.

You are right in saying that had I addressed my concerns about endless discussions regarding bible verses in other topics, I am really referring to those never ending discussions which you mentioned and not this post of polishskaterguy considering that there were only two posts before I did send one. But I did see one good point in what you did to your post, that is asking me to be speicific and what I mean with what I said. Should you not ask me that and just let yourself to be contented with your own understanding on my post, then the true meaning of what I am saying may not be made known to you or if you are lucky enough, you may hit the nail right on its head - you may get the right meaning. To me, I consider what you did to me to be the one lacking in the world of religious denominations today. Bible is being read and interpreted in accordance with how they understand the verses. Should there be questions raise, they will look for another parallel verses to satisfy themselves for the answer. Then the rest is history, in this block rise a fellowship in the name of the Lord, in another block is another group, and so on and so forth. Paul was called out of the group of Peter, but when they met, the teaching about the Lord was the same and so was the filling of the Holy Spirit although they did argue on some little issues. But in our time today, it is different, they are totally independent from each other and the teachings are also totally different from each other. I cannot believe that there is only one Spirit who is manifesting in the so called Christian world today because of these obvious indifferences between each denomination althoug they do say that Jesus is Lord yet unity among them is far from reality.

In your own personal experience germanjoy, have you come to talk to God personally? When I was new in the born again movement, I wished then to go to Israel to look for the real Christians thinking that they still do exist in that so called Promise Land. But that wish was never fulfilled. I am still here in this banana republic of ours. My thinking then was that those people (Israellites) who really experienced God can teach us the truth. But I am getting old now yet not even a shadow of them is visible in my sight. Is there any other option left to us (in general again as I should say) today germanjoy to live in this world like in the days of the apostles?

[germanJoy]

First and foremost, as christians there is no need for us to go to Israel to hear God's voice or to be taught by anyone. The Holy Spirit and the Word of God (spirit and truth) do not dwell among the believers in Israel only but also among the believers in all places of the world. Jesus Himself confirmed that: Woman, believe Me, an hour is coming when enither in this mountain, nor in Jerusalem, shall you worship the Father. You worship that which you do not know; we worship that which we know, for salvation is from the Jews. BUT an hour is coming, and NOW IS, when the true worsippers shall worship the Father in SPIRIT and TRUTH; for such people the Father seeks to be His worshippers." John 4:21-23 Therefore the Word had to be preached to ALL NATIONS.

Anyone, jews or gentiles, abiding in Christ will hear His voice; anyone, jews or gentiles, who has Jesus Christ as his High Priest has access to the throne of grace and can call God "Abba Father". If you believe, you too can fellowship with God, talk to God, and you will hear God's voice for He will talk to you. Faith is needed to make this a reality for apart from it, you cannot reach God's heart, you cannot please Him.

To answer your question, yes I have come and still is coming to talk to God personally. And I hear His voice... not the "audible" one but one that comes from within me, from the heart, from the belly... it is hard to describe sort of like rivers of living water flowing from within. Some claim it can be satan...I say Jesus is my Lord and not satan... I talk to Jesus not satan... I deal with Jesus not satan.... I know it is Jesus not satan... no one can tell me otherwise. This will be a very long post if I tell you all my experiences in hearing God. I have a lot of it, I can even write a novel about it.

If you truly abide in Christ, His anointing will teach you... His Spirit will commune with you....there is even no need for anyone to teach you.
And as for you, the anointing which you received from Him abides in you, and you have no need for anyone to teach you; but as His anointing teaches you about all things, and is true is is not a lie, and just as it has taught you, abide in Him 1 John 2:27

Of course, the jewish people ARE SPECIAL in that they are the NATURAL BRANCHES and I for one long to fellowship with a jewish christian. When I heard for the first and the last time a jewish pastor coming from Israel preached in our church, I was deeply moved my tears were flowing from the beginning until the end of his preaching. I tell you THE ANOINTING is very POWERFUL. It was glorious! The whole creation (including us) is longing EAGERLY for the reconciliation of the jewish folk to God and that is OUR PRAYER as non-jewish christians...that time will come.... and it will be fulfilled just as prophesied!

[OneJack]

anyone, jews or gentiles, who has Jesus Christ as his High Priest has access to the throne of grace and can call God "Abba Father".

Thanks to you germanjoy for your kind response. I do get what you mean and I can see that you are a wide reader of the bible. But still, I have so many questions every time I see a disparity between what is written in the bible vis a vis with the actual practice and occurrence in life. Like this one in your post which I wrapped to emphasize the area of my concern, can you please make this one clearer in a more detailed manner and in the best that you can, how is this being practiced by a Christian like you in your actual life? How is Jesus, being your High Priest, teaching you? Whenever I read the bible, I always read in it that the Lord Jesus in the New Testament was the one teaching the apostles. When I read the Old TEstament, I read in it that the Lord God Almighty was the one teaching Isaiah, Jeremiah, Elijah, Moses, and many more. When I go to the book of Acts, I read in there that Paul personally encounter the Lord Jesus and the Lord Jesus was the one teaching Paul on what to preach to the gentiles considering that during that time, the Lord had already taken up to the Father. Even the book of Revelation was revealed to John by the Lord when John was caught/taken up in spirit. What I mean here germanjoy is that anyhere in the bible at any point in time from Genesis (Creation) to Revelation (final Judgment), we can read that God was the One personally teaching His prophets and apostles without any lapse in time, God was the source of all the teachings.

Allow me to leave you some questions regarding this concerns of mine although the topic here is about Hell. As it is written in the bible that Jesus is the same yesterday, today, and forever, why is it that the different religious denominations today do not get their teachings directly from the Lord Jesus contrary to what we can read from the bible as in the life of Paul? Why is it that their pastors are their fellowmen contrary to what the Lord said that He is the Good Pastor/Shepherd and, also, the High Priest? If yesterday Jesus was the Teacher/Good Pastor of the biblical times and Jesus is the same yesterday and today, isn't it but proper that Jesus must be the One teaching us today? As Jesus is the same today and as of yesterday, Jesus will not leave us, but Jesus will still teach us today and this He clearly did to apsotle Paul whose time is the same as of ours today - the time when Jesus had already ascended to heaven.

By the way germanjoy, where are you based right now and what gender are you?

[Donnie]

i agree with germanJoy all the way.

[GetConnected13]

[QUOTE=polishskaterguy]no where in genesis is hell mentioned. nor is satan mentioned.
when did lucifer reject God, become prideful, and leave God's kingdom with other angels?QUOTE]

lucifer belived he was better And more powerful than God so he "fell" or was cast out with 1/3 more of the angels(what are now demons). But he "fell" before the world was made. Hell is below Heven but not in the middle of the earth like many people think. like when people die they are thrown in the river of fire and their souls are swept to Satan(lacifer). and Satan is mentioned in Genesis he was the serpent that tested eve and brought sin into the world.

[Genesis51]

Aren't fallen angels or Nephilim briefly mentioned in Genesis? The Book of Enoch also discusses them, though how much we should rely on this source is debatable. None mention Satan though.

[germanJoy]

,
If yesterday Jesus was the Teacher/Good Pastor of the biblical times and Jesus is the same yesterday and today, isn't it but proper that Jesus must be the One teaching us today?

By the way germanjoy, where are you based right now and what gender are you?
I am based in Germany and my gender is not really important here, revealing it will only provoke many :LOL . I need to correct your wrong perception of the fact that there were no other teachers or pastors appointed by God to feed His people. Remember John 21:15-17? Jesus instructed Peter (before He was ascended into heaven) three times to pastor and teach His lambs and sheep with these words "Tend My lambs, Shepherd My sheep, Tend My sheep." This instruction is given not only to Peter but also TO ALL WHO LOVES JESUS and are called to do it. Paul was also teaching and those whom they taught continued teaching others after the Apostles died. The Holy Spirit of God did not stop working through the minds and hands of the believers until today. We know it because we have the Holy Bible to examine whether one has the Spirit of God or not. There are many christians today who have personal encounters with the Holy Spirit (which of course are criticized by the anti-charismatics) in many different ways. Most if not all of them are afterwards called to serve the Lord in the full-time ministry and the manifestations of their work is truly of God, with prayer and fasting, powerful and effective, suffering and persecuted, ridiculed, imprisoned and at times beaten up, etc (just like the fate of the early believers). To cite an example, read the story of Brother Yun and other persecuted christians in China.

[proskyno]

I don't believe there is a hell, as eternal punishment.

The Bible uses the words Sheol (OT), Hades, Tartarus(once) & Gehenna (NT) to define what was translated to latin as 'Hell'. These all refer to either the grave (Sheol, Hades) or garbage dumps. None refer to torture - just destruction.

Bad translations, most notably the KJV, have sold the idea of 'hell' as torment by translating those words to a variety of words including - pit, fiery pit, etc.

The fact is that people who pleased God - like Job - begged to be sent to Sheol (the same word translated to fiery pit, etc) rather then continue in pain on earth. In fact all people in the Bible who die wind up in Sheol....good or bad. It's not a place of torture.

Fire was used to describe the punishment for not following God cause it conveyed permant destruction then and now. The 'eternality' of Hell is shown by the verse (that I can look up if someone is interested) where Sodom & Gommorah's fires are said to 'burn forever' or 'smoke forever'.

I could go deeper, but look at it this way. Would a loving God torture people for eternity? Wouldn't he at least have warned Adam? (no, he said you will 'surely die'.) Wouldn't he have warned the Israelis? (no, even today Jewish people don't even understand the concept of eternal torment).

Ecclesiastes 9:5, 10 (ASV 1901):

For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not anything, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.
....
Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in Sheol, whither thou goest.

[Angel]

proskyno

Jesus said Matthew 5 verse 22 "But I say to you that whoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in judgment. And whoever says to his brother"Raca"! shall be in danger of the council But whoever says "You fool" shall be in danger of hell fire.

Matthew 18 verse 9 Jesus said "And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out and cast it from you. It is better for you to enter into life with one eye rather than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire."

These are two verses in which Jesus talks about "Hell fire" I don't believe Jesus is a liar so I have to believe that Hell is definitely a place you would'nt want to be in. :)

Angel :af

[proskyno]

proskyno

Jesus said Matthew 5 verse 22 "But I say to you that whoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in judgment. And whoever says to his brother"Raca"! shall be in danger of the council But whoever says "You fool" shall be in danger of hell fire.

Matthew 18 verse 9 Jesus said "And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out and cast it from you. It is better for you to enter into life with one eye rather than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire."

These are two verses in which Jesus talks about "Hell fire" I don't believe Jesus is a liar so I have to believe that Hell is definitely a place you would'nt want to be in. :)

Angel :af

I'd start by asking if you think it's indicative of a loving God to punish people for eternity?

The verses you list display exactly what I was pointing out. Fire signifies destruction, not torture.

The fact is, if there was eternal torment for the wicked, then it would have been taught to the Israelites, to Adam. It wasn't. If any MAN has ever deserved torment it was Adam....but the Bible clearly states his punishment was death. God warned that he would 'surely die' and he surely did.

Hell.....Sheol/Hades.......is the grave. It's destruction. It burns you up and you are destroyed. It's what's described in Ecclesiastes 9:5,10 and many other verses as destruction.

Like I said - the Bible only refers to one place - the Grave (Sheol/Hades/etc). A place all go to - good & bad, even Jesus went there.

I believe a loving God would not torture the good or the bad and I see no scriptual basis to believe otherwise.

[Angel]

proskyno

Revelation 20 verse 15

And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.

God is a loving God and is not willing for any to perish but He knows there will be those who will reject Him but He has made it quite clear about what will happen if our names are not found in the Book of Life.

Angel :af

[proskyno]

proskyno

Revelation 20 verse 15

And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.

God is a loving God and is not willing for any to perish but He knows there will be those who will reject Him but He has made it quite clear about what will happen if our names are not found in the Book of Life.

Angel :af

What is fire to you? What happens when you burn something?

It is destroyed. It is gone.

Like I've said in both my other posts here......the words used to describe the grave we all go to (those of us good & bad) is consistent - the Grave. To believe God punishs the bad is one thing.....but then you must also accept that he will torture the good too.

How you can view God as loving, yet also willing to torture us for eternity....and torture many Israelites without even letting them know the punishment.....that I just don't get.


You do point out that there is a second, more permanent death mentioned in Revelations. Look at that more closely.

Rev 20:13-15

And the sea gave up the dead that were in it; and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
And death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death, even the lake of fire.
And if any was not found written in the book of life, he was cast into the lake of fire.


Notice that Hades....Hell itself....is cast into the lake of fire at the end. What does that mean to you?

Can you torture a place?

No, what it means is that, just like all those who oppose God - the Grave - Death - will also be destroyed in the end.

[OneVoice]

no where in genesis is hell mentioned. nor is satan mentioned.
when did lucifer reject God, become prideful, and leave God's kingdom with other angels?

everything in God's creating was good right?

well then how did God create hell.


if everything was good there is no reason for hell!

SO HOW DOES THIS WORK!!!?!?!


Why do we have jails? Why do we have a death penalty?
Because of crime.
because there is Law and because when the law is broken justiuce must be served and the demands of the law inrespect to that justice met.

God can not look on sin.
Wheh we sin we are seperated from God.
The Bible says "All have sinned" (Romans 3:23) and "The wages of sin are death" (Romans 6:23)
Because God created us, gave, and had every right to give a law, Adam the one law: "Obey"

The same was true in heaven.
But satan who was the most glorious of all God's angels, and they are all created beings as well, rebelled, tried to ursurp heaven, and throne away from the infinate, almighty God. He was cast out and Jesus said He saw Satan fall to earth like a star. And Satan's angels went with him.
God already had a plan for satan and it included an eternal confinement appropriate to the hideousness he would commit and the horrors he would entice God's children to commit upon one another.
Hell is exactly what God intended for Satan and his angels. But notice ... there is NO PLAN to redeem them!
But if you look at the second half of Romans 6:23
"but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord."

and
Romans 5:8 says that God demonstrates His love for us in this: that while we were still sinners, Christ died for US.
Yes there is Hell and Yes people as well as satan's demons, do end up there. God is a loving God who has said that He would rather all come to repentance and not perish... here's the verse.
2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.
But becaue we are fallen, we are sinful, and we can not keep any of His law. Because God is ALSO JUST he must obey His own Law and He must satisfy the demands of the law.
Say, for example, a man commits a terrible crime and is never caught. Years go by and he changes and becomes an upright citizen and is now tha kind of person w3ho could never again murder or abuse anyone. But evidence comes to light and he is caught.
He tells the judge "I'm sorry I am different now. Can't you just let me go?" If this is a good Judge who does as the law dictates he can not let him go.
There is a penalty, a debt to pay.
This is where you and I and everyone one earth are.
We will all stand guilty before God. And God will have to be just with us.
BUT GOD did something so that we would not have to be given the deternal death of Hell. He came as Imanuel (which means God with us) in the body of His Son Jesus who having no sin became our sin, took it all on Himself, was found as if guilty as we are guilty and was hung on a cross.
Jesus Himself in John 10 says "The Father loves Me because I lay down my life for My sheep." (that's us) "No one takes it from mre. I lay it down and I take it up again."

In the court room we might picture this as the Judge removing His Judges robes and stepping down from his bench to put on prisonor's clothing and take our justly deserve punishment for us.

Then he puts on His robes again and see that the debt is paid by another who has given everything that we might be free.

God Himself, in the person of Jesus His son, provided the only way that we may be saved from His deserved judgment.

Why?
Because He loves us and Hell was never intended for us.
But if we refuse His gift... we have sinned and deserve what ever God feels is just. If we rebell, and reject Him and reject His gift of Jesus and salation by God's grece (undeserved favore) he has no choice but to give us Hell.

If a high school student is very bright, make "A"s on all his tests and yet never turns in home work... his teacher has NO choice but to fail him according to the rules of fair grading.

God Loves us.
God must be just.
Punishment MUST be administered and justice upheld
God sent Jesus to Die on the cross to pay for our sins.
Now... a last not and Who this gift is for.
There are some people who bel;ieve that they have done nothing so bad that some one needed to die for their wrongdoing.
But in God's sight all sin is sin worthy of death.
God did not create us to sin and there was never any reason to rebell against God. And yet we do.
But God knew we would and He provided the means of our redenption. Jesus paid the price to redeem us from the shelves of Satan's pawn shop.

Why did God create Hell?
Why did/ DO we dissobey?
Why does God let people go to Hell?
Why does anyone choose to go to Hell whe He has given us Jesus who died for us and is our wonderful savior, councilor and friend?

Why is there death and Hell?
A better question is Why did Jesus die for sinners who deserve death and Hell?
"Becaue God so loved [put YOUR NAME here!] that He gave His one and only Son that if YOU would believe in Him, YOU would not perish and You would have eternal life."
John 3:16
AND...please notice that Hell isn't there because we sin. Becuase we sin we earn a place in Hell. God bless OneVoice

[germanJoy]

Hi Proskyno, I have to move my reply to your post up here so that it gets more visible. :-)

You wrote: I don't believe there is a hell, as eternal punishment. The Bible uses the words Sheol (OT), Hades, Tartarus(once) & Gehenna (NT) to define what was translated to latin as 'Hell'. These all refer to either the grave (Sheol, Hades) or garbage dumps. None refer to torture - just destruction.

Whether you believe it or not, the bible speaks of hell as eternal punishment with torment, torture or agony (depending on translations). To deny hell is to deny also God's judgement to those who reject and disobey Him. If you do not believe me, then believe Jesus' words in Luke 16:22-24 (New American Standard Bible)

Now it came about that the poor man died, and he was carried away by the angels to Abraham's bosom; and the rich man also died and was buried. And in Hades he lifted up his eys, being in torment and saw Abraham far away, and Lazarus (the poor man) in his bosom. And he cried out and said, 'Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool off my tonque; for I am in agony in this flame.

The above is not King James but New American Standard Bible and yet it speaks of "place of torment and agony iin flame" like King James Version.

This statement of yours "In fact all people in the Bible who die wind up in Sheol....good or bad. It's not a place of torture." need to be corrected for it contradicts the following verses in Luke 16 v26-27 And besides all this, between us and you there is a great chasm fixed, in order that those who wish to come over from here to you may not be able, and that none may cross over from there to us. And he said, "Then I beg, Father, that you send him to my father's house--for I have five brothers--that he may warn them, lest they also come to this place of torment.. Proskyno, this rich man was a "bad" jew (he called Abraham father) and Lazarus, the poor man, was a "good" jew. Both died and ended up in different places.

The jewish people at the time of Jesus did not understand (and still will not understand if they continue in unblief) the concept of eternal torment because of their rejection of Christ and His words. Christians believe and receive EVERYTHING what Jesus said. Will you?

A loving God does not want to torture His people therefore His love brought Christ to the cross to save them from eternal torment. And a just God will punish wickedness and will reward righteousness.

If you read the complete message of Ecclesiastes 9, you will get to better understand its full context. It is speaking of the FATE of all men which is PHYSICAL DEATH. So whether one is evil or good, one DIES. Sheol in the old testament is also named as death. Job said in chapter 16:13-14: If I look for Sheol as my home, I make my bed in the darkness. If I call to the pit... Where now is my hope? He did not beg for death, he knew death (terrible sickness that fell upon him) is closely approaching him but he did not give up his hope in God.

[OneVoice]

I believe it occured in between Gen 1:1 and 1:2.. I could throw out some reasons why if you want but i confess up front that the scritpural evidence is sketchy at best.

However. If so, then it would have been created prior to the 7day creation. Which would mean even Hell is good as a means of Glorifying its creator. As his Justice and wrath and holiness would be demonstrated through the punishment of the rebellious angels. not good for them, but good for God and all who love him.

Believing is not enough.
You need to know what you know and be able to be held accountable for what you say you believe.
And know WHY you believe it.


Trying to establish a time frame on something eternal is always folly.
If you are going to make a claim for when you believe God created Hel you may equally suppose when God created Himself.

And as I said believing is not enough.
You see the Muslims believe the koran is the Bible and the higher book, that Allah is God, that Jesus was not God's son.
JW believe that there is only God and Jesus was not His son there is no trinity.
Catholics (RCC) are taught and believe that Mary was sinless and co-redeemer with Her Son Jesus.


And... don't forget that the Bible says that even the demons believe

James 2:19 You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder.

It is not enough to believe.
There has t be relationship and knowledge.

Matthew 22:37 Jesus replied: " 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.'

THAT said... can you give a scriture or historically reliable reference to define and confirm what you have said you believe?
It is imporant, especially today when our world is so easily lead in so many wrong directions, to know what we know, know what it is we have believed, and know why we believe it.

OneVoice

[SirLaffalot aka CarltonRoss]

Hell is referred to as "...the place reserved for Satan and his angels..." and will be that place of eternal punishment.

I do not see any exact time frame for Lucifer's rebellion and being cast out of Heaven to end up on Earth, but I suspect it was before the Creation-- I can be wrong there. However, shortly after the Creation, Lucifer was there, as the serpent (The Hebrew name for Satan is Dracon with a long L-- meaning "Beautiful Dragon") deceiving Eve to the first sin with Adam to follow closely behind.

Remember, according to His word, it is not God's will that any should perish, but that all should come to a knowledge of their salvation-- Hell, therefore, is not God's will or choice, but a result of divine justice which will not be denied.

Put your eyes on Jesus; look full into His wonderful face-- walk with Him and you will have no worries or concerns of Hell.

Blessings,

Sir Laffy

[blueheron32]

Rev 14:9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
Rev 14:10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
Rev 14:11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

blue...

[proskyno]

Hi Proskyno, I have to move my reply to your post up here so that it gets more visible. :-)

You wrote: I don't believe there is a hell, as eternal punishment. The Bible uses the words Sheol (OT), Hades, Tartarus(once) & Gehenna (NT) to define what was translated to latin as 'Hell'. These all refer to either the grave (Sheol, Hades) or garbage dumps. None refer to torture - just destruction.

Whether you believe it or not, the bible speaks of hell as eternal punishment with torment, torture or agony (depending on translations). To deny hell is to deny also God's judgement to those who reject and disobey Him. If you do not believe me, then believe Jesus' words in Luke 16:22-24 (New American Standard Bible)

Now it came about that the poor man died, and he was carried away by the angels to Abraham's bosom; and the rich man also died and was buried. And in Hades he lifted up his eys, being in torment and saw Abraham far away, and Lazarus (the poor man) in his bosom. And he cried out and said, 'Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool off my tonque; for I am in agony in this flame.

The above is not King James but New American Standard Bible and yet it speaks of "place of torment and agony iin flame" like King James Version.


And do you believe that is a literal description? That someone in Hell can see the people outside? That all good men can fit in the 'bosom of Abraham'? That a drop of water can put out the fires of torture you believe in? This is very clearly a parable and was used to emphasize the role reversal of the players. This is not a literal description of the grave.

Compare this to Jude 7, in which the fires of Sodom and Gomorrah are said to 'burn for eternity'. Do those fires still burn? No. The people are long dead, long gone.

On top of that the word for 'punishment' used in the verse you mention and one in 2THESS and in MATT all were translated from the greek word KOLASIN. Kolasin means 'to cut off'. It means to be seperated from God.

Agony in flame derives from references to Gehenna Pyros.....basically describing a fiery garbage pit outside Jerusalem.....not a place of torture or torment but of waste after desctruction. It was a place they threw the bodies of criminals after execution.



This statement of yours "In fact all people in the Bible who die wind up in Sheol....good or bad. It's not a place of torture." need to be corrected for it contradicts the following verses in Luke 16 v26-27 And besides all this, between us and you there is a great chasm fixed, in order that those who wish to come over from here to you may not be able, and that none may cross over from there to us. And he said, "Then I beg, Father, that you send him to my father's house--for I have five brothers--that he may warn them, lest they also come to this place of torment.. Proskyno, this rich man was a "bad" jew (he called Abraham father) and Lazarus, the poor man, was a "good" jew. Both died and ended up in different places.


See comments above and towards the bottom about Job.



The jewish people at the time of Jesus did not understand (and still will not understand if they continue in unblief) the concept of eternal torment because of their rejection of Christ and His words. Christians believe and receive EVERYTHING what Jesus said. Will you?


The NT has been far more corrupted by time than the OT. I don't believe in the Talmud or the unwritten rules of Judaism one iota, but the Torah and all of the Old Testament have been better preserved because of Jewish scholars than any other scripts. We can actually rely on the OT translations better than most NT ones because of this.

For what the Jewish people have, they have it right....No where in the OT does it mention torment/torture in the grave.....never. Wouldn't God have at least mentioned it to Adam or Moses? He said you will 'surely die'.....maybe Adam would have thought twice if it was eternal torment as you say.


A loving God does not want to torture His people therefore His love brought Christ to the cross to save them from eternal torment. And a just God will punish wickedness and will reward righteousness.


Yes, there is punishment, and the punishment is made very clear:

Romans 6:23 - the wages sin pays is death.
Romans 6:27 - he who has died has been acquitted from his sin


If you read the complete message of Ecclesiastes 9, you will get to better understand its full context. It is speaking of the FATE of all men which is PHYSICAL DEATH. So whether one is evil or good, one DIES.

I've read Ecclesiastes many times. Yes, it's talking about our fate and it makes the point - very clearly - that in death we will know nothing....that our thoughts perish. The verse very clearly is describing the state after death....

9:5
For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.

9:10
Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do (it) with thy might; for (there is) no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest. (my comment: grave = SHEOL)

Can it be any more clear? I don't see how you can associate that verse to the living as some punishment - that's describing what we all can expect very clearly.

There are other verses that back this up too, like Psalm 146:4.



Sheol in the old testament is also named as death. Job said in chapter 16:13-14: If I look for Sheol as my home, I make my bed in the darkness. If I call to the pit... Where now is my hope? He did not beg for death, he knew death (terrible sickness that fell upon him) is closely approaching him but he did not give up his hope in God.

Yes, it's death - the grave. The same thing Hades means in the NT. It's the word most used to describe the place both good and bad go to.

Look at Job 14:13:
O that thou wouldest hide me in the grave, that thou wouldest keep me secret, until thy wrath be past, that thou wouldest appoint me a set time, and remember me!

That is the description of the grave. Nothingness, until the resurrection that Job, and other people who please God are rose. Your verse says the same thing. It uses the same Hebrew word - SHEOL - that is used to describe the place bad people go to too.

.........................................

I notice you make no mention of Revelations 20:13-15. Can you explain what it means that Hell is thrown into the lake of fire? Explain how the grave=hell=sheol=hades/gehenna/tartarus can be tortured? I'd like to hear that explanation.

.......................................

Finally, you point this at me and say that everyone must believe that God would torment people for eternity, and I'd redirect it to you. Do you blame God for the Hurricane or Volcano or Tidal Wave? No, it's the seperation from God that has caused those things, but it's the same attitude to blame God that you can believe he would torture people for eternity. A Christian parent would not torture their child and a loving God would not torture people.

God is Love (1John4:8) and it is a disgusting to try to read into it that he would torture us, when throughout the Bible, consistently, it's worded as the grave as destruction as 'cutting off'.

[SemperReformanda]

??
I confess that i am confused.

What do the demons believing in God have to do with when hell was created? Or transversley what does pondering when the creation of hell occured have to do with Faith justified before man through good works?

Heres why i say believe

We know:
1) Hell was prepared for the devil and his angels. (Matthew 25:41)
2) The devil prior to his fall was given charge over Eden (which places his fall before the creation of man on Day 6 since Adam was given given charge over Eden upon his creation.) (Ez. 28; Isa 14; Gen 2) and the Eden he was in does not seem to be described as a garden with vegetation.
3) Gen 1:1 God Created the heavens and the earth and according to Isa 45 in its original state He did not create it waste (heb. tohu), and by Gen 1:2 the earth was (heb tohu and bohu) "waste and empty"

So from that my assumptions are (I believe) that Lucifer fell between gen 1:1 and gen 1:2. And since It was prepared for the devil and his angels it would have been prepared either prior to or at the time of his fall. Of course i reject the idea that hell existed into eternity past since it was infact created, and since God was not created then speculating on when it was created is in no way like speculating on the creation of God.

concerning the statement..
"It is not enough to believe.
There has t be relationship and knowledge. "

I believe, based on sketchy evidence at best that hell was created between gen 1:1-2. I have no relationship with hell whatsoever. Nor do i claim any certain knowledge. I havent found a better case for any other time frame so thats just the time I believe he did it. Just like I believe Oscar the grouch could kick Big Birds tail in a no holds bar cage match, and that OJ simpson killed nicole. (well mebbe theres a bit more evidence on OJ). :P

Its not a hill I'd die on and if anyone wanted to dispute it I'd not feel it necesarry in anyway to defend it. My salvation isnt resting on it, nor do i feel any one elses is in danger for refuting it. .. Its just what i believe :)

[OneVoice]

??
I confess that i am confused.

What do the demons believing in God have to do with when hell was created? Or transversley what does pondering when the creation of hell occured have to do with Faith justified before man through good works?

Heres why i say believe

We know:
1) Hell was prepared for the devil and his angels. (Matthew 25:41)
2) The devil prior to his fall was given charge over Eden (which places his fall before the creation of man on Day 6 since Adam was given given charge over Eden upon his creation.) (Ez. 28; Isa 14; Gen 2) and the Eden he was in does not seem to be described as a garden with vegetation.
3) Gen 1:1 God Created the heavens and the earth and according to Isa 45 in its original state He did not create it waste (heb. tohu), and by Gen 1:2 the earth was (heb tohu and bohu) "waste and empty"

So from that my assumptions are (I believe) that Lucifer fell between gen 1:1 and gen 1:2. And since It was prepared for the devil and his angels it would have been prepared either prior to or at the time of his fall. Of course i reject the idea that hell existed into eternity past since it was infact created, and since God was not created then speculating on when it was created is in no way like speculating on the creation of God.

concerning the statement..
"It is not enough to believe.
There has t be relationship and knowledge. "

I believe, based on sketchy evidence at best that hell was created between gen 1:1-2. I have no relationship with hell whatsoever. Nor do i claim any certain knowledge. I havent found a better case for any other time frame so thats just the time I believe he did it. Just like I believe Oscar the grouch could kick Big Birds tail in a no holds bar cage match, and that OJ simpson killed nicole. (well mebbe theres a bit more evidence on OJ). :P

Its not a hill I'd die on and if anyone wanted to dispute it I'd not feel it necesarry in anyway to defend it. My salvation isnt resting on it, nor do i feel any one elses is in danger for refuting it. .. Its just what i believe :)

Hi Semper the point about believing was 1) a lot of people believe what they wish, and there need be no viable fact or provable point. But that kind of blind and thoughless belief makes nothing they believe to be true. and 2)your believing that the fall of Satan was at the time you have confessed to assuming, is in no way scriptural evidence of a time frame. You have believed it without cause or evidence. And God doesn't say when He created heaven or even place it in the order of the act of Creation. Therefore to assume that the creation of Hell was at the same time and failing any scriptural evedince to back up that claim, what you believe falls into the realm between unfounded guess work and just plain not knowing. And , in point of fact, it can not be known from scriptures. God simply did not say. Your believeiong it was at the time you have only assumed, is no more validating that my guessing your middle name to be .."humphry"You haven;t give it or evelaied it to me in amy fashion. And I have no grounds to cvall that anything more than a guess. Now the danger is this. Will you believe in a guess every time God chooses to not answer all your questions to your satisfaction?*grin* or will you trust God with all of that and know that when He reveals something there is no doubt. And WhenHe conceals something there is no reason to doubt, because He has always been faithful.

[EnterHisPresence]

Well first of all, I have to say, that whether one believes in hell or not, it's real. Jesus made that very clear.
You say that His description of hell is only a parable. Why is it that where every other parable that He gives, He says it's a parable, but in His description of hell, He doesn't? My guess is that He wasn't giving a parable, when describing hell.

The man in Luke 16:24 cries: ". . .I am tormented in this flame."

Matthew 13:42, Jesus says: "And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth."
Jesus says: in Mat 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

Revelation 20:15 says, " And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire."

You said that if there was a place of fire and torment, surely someone like Adam or Moses would have said something about it. Well, Isaiah did say something about it. Isa 66:24 And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.

Rev 14:9-11 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

Mark 9:43-48 And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire: Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

If hell is not a real place of punishment, Jesus must have been wasting his time with talking about it. Personally, I don't think Jesus was wasting his breath.

[SemperReformanda]

I stand corrected :)

[Angel]

Proskyno

All this talk about hell and what it would really be like and how we are all getting it wrong. Well you know what it's something that I don't even want to think about because all those who have gone to Hell I can't do anything about. What I can do is spread the love of Christ to any unbelievers I know so that hopefully they won't go there. :-) That to me is more important than envisaging what Hell is really like according to the bible however you interpret it.

You have not mentioned Christ much in your posts so that leads me to wonder - do you believe He, Jesus is the risen Christ and that He died for our sins so that we can inherit eternal life with Him in heaven should we accept God's gracious gift of salvation? Because that is the only way we can get to heaven, through Jesus Christ. He paid the ultimate sacrifice for us. That definitely needs to be acknowledged. If we make it to heaven then we don't really need to wonder about that horrible place called "Hell"

Ephesians 1 verse 7

In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins according to the riches of His grace. :)

Angel :af

[remnant777]

ok i'm gonna try my best because it seems to me that we are in Babylon here and that we cannot come to any agreement and the only way to settle this is to see what the Bible says about everything... Not what we think... but use scripture to interpret scripture. i'll post more tomorrow... but someone explain this to me... Read Jude 7 and explain to me what it mean about eternal fire there... then we'll talk about hell.

[proskyno]

ok i'm gonna try my best because it seems to me that we are in Babylon here and that we cannot come to any agreement and the only way to settle this is to see what the Bible says about everything... Not what we think... but use scripture to interpret scripture. i'll post more tomorrow... but someone explain this to me... Read Jude 7 and explain to me what it mean about eternal fire there... then we'll talk about hell.

The eternal fire of Sodom and Gomorrah are what we see now of it. Destruction. The cities are gone and we can likely assume the inhabitants won't be a part of the resurrection.

I too would like to see people stop believing they know and start learning. I'd like to see people here stop relying on tradition and superstition and start reading the verses....examining them....not assuming.


Angel: It is extremely important that you understand what hell is, because it reflects on how you view God. It is also a place that everyone of us will go, whether we are good or bad.



I'd still love to hear someone who believes that a loving God would torment his people for eternity explain Rev 20:13-15. Specifically when it says that Hell will be thrown into the lake of fire.

Hell is the grave.....nothingness, as Ecc 9:5,10 describe it.

Since you can't torture a place - hell - it's very clear that the lake of fire - the 'second death' is just that.....eternal destruction.

Please, I'd ask anyone to explain how they interpret this differently.

[Angel]

proskyno

There are a lot of things I admit I do not know the answers to but you want everyone to answer your questions but you did not answer mine (The one about Jesus) which is an easy one to answer. :) How about it or are you evading the answer. ;)

Angel :af

[SIMPLEOBSERVATION]

no where in genesis is hell mentioned. nor is satan mentioned.
when did lucifer reject God, become prideful, and leave God's kingdom with other angels?

everything in God's creating was good right?

well then how did God create hell.


if everything was good there is no reason for hell!

SO HOW DOES THIS WORK!!!?!?!

This is a very hard thing for us to grasp. But here is how I understand it.

God needs us to love him, but he doesn't just want to MAKE us love him. How would that be love?

So, being all powerful, God is actually ABLE to give us free will... but free will doesn't work unless there's an alternative.

So, he created "hell" as a choice. We can choose him (good) or choose not to be with him (evil)

As far as I'm concerned, I don't need to understand how it all works before I put my faith in God. Hence, I have faith.

And besides, what's the alternative?

[OneVoice]

The eternal fire of Sodom and Gomorrah are what we see now of it. Destruction. The cities are gone and we can likely assume the inhabitants won't be a part of the resurrection.

I too would like to see people stop believing they know and start learning. I'd like to see people here stop relying on tradition and superstition and start reading the verses....examining them....not assuming.


Angel: It is extremely important that you understand what hell is, because it reflects on how you view God. It is also a place that everyone of us will go, whether we are good or bad.



I'd still love to hear someone who believes that a loving God would torment his people for eternity explain Rev 20:13-15. Specifically when it says that Hell will be thrown into the lake of fire.

Hell is the grave.....nothingness, as Ecc 9:5,10 describe it.

Since you can't torture a place - hell - it's very clear that the lake of fire - the 'second death' is just that.....eternal destruction.

Please, I'd ask anyone to explain how they interpret this differently.
It is ALWAYS good and useful to go to God's word to see what GOPD has said on any matter. And on the Hell which He ceated the Bible says yjese things:

Matthew 5:22 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=5&verse=22&version=31&context=verse)
But I tell you that anyone who is angry with his brother will be subject to judgment. Again, anyone who says to his brother, 'Raca, ' is answerable to the Sanhedrin. But anyone who says, 'You fool!' will be in danger of the fire of hell.
Matthew 5:21-23 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=5&verse=21&end_verse=23&version=31&context=context) (in Context) Matthew 5 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=5&version=31&context=chapter) (Whole Chapter)
Matthew 10:28 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=10&verse=28&version=31&context=verse)
Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.
Matthew 10:27-29 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=10&verse=27&end_verse=29&version=31&context=context) (in Context) Matthew 10 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=10&version=31&context=chapter) (Whole Chapter)
Matthew 18:9 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=18&verse=9&version=31&context=verse)
And if your eye causes you to sin, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into the fire of hell.
Matthew 18:8-10 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=18&verse=8&end_verse=10&version=31&context=context) (in Context) Matthew 18 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=18&version=31&context=chapter) (Whole Chapter)
Matthew 23:15 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=23&verse=15&version=31&context=verse)
"Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You travel over land and sea to win a single convert, and when he becomes one, you make him twice as much a son of hell as you are.
Matthew 23:14-16 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=23&verse=14&end_verse=16&version=31&context=context) (in Context) Matthew 23 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=23&version=31&context=chapter) (Whole Chapter)
Matthew 23:33 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=23&verse=33&version=31&context=verse)
"You snakes! You brood of vipers! How will you escape being condemned to hell?
Matthew 23:32-34 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=23&verse=32&end_verse=34&version=31&context=context) (in Context) Matthew 23 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=23&version=31&context=chapter) (Whole Chapter)
Luke 16:23 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=49&chapter=16&verse=23&version=31&context=verse)
In hell, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side.
Luke 16:22-24 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=49&chapter=16&verse=22&end_verse=24&version=31&context=context) (in Context) Luke 16 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=49&chapter=16&version=31&context=chapter) (Whole Chapter)
James 3:6 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=66&chapter=3&verse=6&version=31&context=verse)
The tongue also is a fire, a world of evil among the parts of the body. It corrupts the whole person, sets the whole course of his life on fire, and is itself set on fire by hell.
James 3:5-7 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=66&chapter=3&verse=5&end_verse=7&version=31&context=context) (in Context) James 3 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=66&chapter=3&version=31&context=chapter) (Whole Chapter)Jesus referes to Hell as "Darkness"

Matthew 13:50 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=13&verse=50&version=31&context=verse)
and throw them into the fiery furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
Matthew 13:49-51 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=13&verse=49&end_verse=51&version=31&context=context) (in Context) Matthew 13 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=13&version=31&context=chapter) (Whole Chapter)
Matthew 22:13 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=22&verse=13&version=31&context=verse)
"Then the king told the attendants, 'Tie him hand and foot, and throw him outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.'
Matthew 22:12-14 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=22&verse=12&end_verse=14&version=31&context=context) (in Context) Matthew 22 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=22&version=31&context=chapter) (Whole Chapter)
Matthew 24:51 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=24&verse=51&version=31&context=verse)
He will cut him to pieces and assign him a place with the hypocrites, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
Matthew 24:50-52 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=24&verse=50&end_verse=52&version=31&context=context) (in Context) Matthew 24 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=24&version=31&context=chapter) (Whole Chapter)
Matthew 25:30 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=25&verse=30&version=31&context=verse)
And throw that worthless servant outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.'
Matthew 25:29-31 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=25&verse=29&end_verse=31&version=31&context=context) (in Context) Matthew 25 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=25&version=31&context=chapter) (Whole Chapter)
Luke 13:28 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=49&chapter=13&verse=28&version=31&context=verse)
"There will be weeping there, and gnashing of teeth,
Luke 13:27-29 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=49&chapter=13&verse=27&end_verse=29&version=31&context=context) (in Context) Luke 13 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=49&chapter=13&version=31&context=chapter) (Whole Chapter)That doesn't sound very restful as the grace to me. Hell is all Jesus has said that it is.

[proskyno]

proskyno

There are a lot of things I admit I do not know the answers to but you want everyone to answer your questions but you did not answer mine (The one about Jesus) which is an easy one to answer. :) How about it or are you evading the answer. ;)

Angel :af

I believe in what is commonly called the Old and New Testament. Everything in Bible canon.

I do not put any faith whatsoever in the Apocrypha or any oral tradition. That includes the Apostles Creed or the Nicene Creed, etc.

.....................

I absolutely believe in Jesus, the son of God. I'm also familiar with Acts 4:12.

I also realise that it takes more than just putting your faith in Jesus. I know that many who believe they are doing good works in the name of Jesus fail to realize who Jesus represented.

Jesus told his Apostles:
Joh 15:21 But all these things will they do unto you for my name's sake, because they know not him that sent me.

Who was he referring to? Who sent him?

God the Father, or look at the verse Matthew 4:10, where Jesus tells Satan:

Mat 4:10 Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.

In this verse Jesus says that it 'was written'....he is referring to Deuteronomy 6:13:

Deu 6:13 Thou shalt fear the LORD thy God, and serve him, and shalt swear by his name.

We know that anytime the bible spells the word 'LORD' in all capital letters that it refers to the name of God - Jehovah.
(I'd recommend you to look in my thread on this board for more information on this name).

[proskyno]

It is ALWAYS good and useful to go to God's word to see what GOPD has said on any matter. And on the Hell which He ceated the Bible says yjese things:

Matthew 5:22 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=5&verse=22&version=31&context=verse)
But I tell you that anyone who is angry with his brother will be subject to judgment. Again, anyone who says to his brother, 'Raca, ' is answerable to the Sanhedrin. But anyone who says, 'You fool!' will be in danger of the fire of hell.
Matthew 5:21-23 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=5&verse=21&end_verse=23&version=31&context=context) (in Context) Matthew 5 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=5&version=31&context=chapter) (Whole Chapter)
Matthew 10:28 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=10&verse=28&version=31&context=verse)
Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.
Matthew 10:27-29 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=10&verse=27&end_verse=29&version=31&context=context) (in Context) Matthew 10 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=10&version=31&context=chapter) (Whole Chapter)
Matthew 18:9 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=18&verse=9&version=31&context=verse)
And if your eye causes you to sin, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into the fire of hell.
Matthew 18:8-10 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=18&verse=8&end_verse=10&version=31&context=context) (in Context) Matthew 18 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=18&version=31&context=chapter) (Whole Chapter)
Matthew 23:15 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=23&verse=15&version=31&context=verse)
"Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You travel over land and sea to win a single convert, and when he becomes one, you make him twice as much a son of hell as you are.
Matthew 23:14-16 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=23&verse=14&end_verse=16&version=31&context=context) (in Context) Matthew 23 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=23&version=31&context=chapter) (Whole Chapter)
Matthew 23:33 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=23&verse=33&version=31&context=verse)
"You snakes! You brood of vipers! How will you escape being condemned to hell?
Matthew 23:32-34 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=23&verse=32&end_verse=34&version=31&context=context) (in Context) Matthew 23 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=23&version=31&context=chapter) (Whole Chapter)
Luke 16:23 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=49&chapter=16&verse=23&version=31&context=verse)
In hell, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side.
Luke 16:22-24 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=49&chapter=16&verse=22&end_verse=24&version=31&context=context) (in Context) Luke 16 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=49&chapter=16&version=31&context=chapter) (Whole Chapter)
James 3:6 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=66&chapter=3&verse=6&version=31&context=verse)
The tongue also is a fire, a world of evil among the parts of the body. It corrupts the whole person, sets the whole course of his life on fire, and is itself set on fire by hell.
James 3:5-7 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=66&chapter=3&verse=5&end_verse=7&version=31&context=context) (in Context) James 3 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=66&chapter=3&version=31&context=chapter) (Whole Chapter)Jesus referes to Hell as "Darkness"

Matthew 13:50 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=13&verse=50&version=31&context=verse)
and throw them into the fiery furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
Matthew 13:49-51 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=13&verse=49&end_verse=51&version=31&context=context) (in Context) Matthew 13 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=13&version=31&context=chapter) (Whole Chapter)
Matthew 22:13 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=22&verse=13&version=31&context=verse)
"Then the king told the attendants, 'Tie him hand and foot, and throw him outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.'
Matthew 22:12-14 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=22&verse=12&end_verse=14&version=31&context=context) (in Context) Matthew 22 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=22&version=31&context=chapter) (Whole Chapter)
Matthew 24:51 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=24&verse=51&version=31&context=verse)
He will cut him to pieces and assign him a place with the hypocrites, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
Matthew 24:50-52 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=24&verse=50&end_verse=52&version=31&context=context) (in Context) Matthew 24 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=24&version=31&context=chapter) (Whole Chapter)
Matthew 25:30 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=25&verse=30&version=31&context=verse)
And throw that worthless servant outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.'
Matthew 25:29-31 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=25&verse=29&end_verse=31&version=31&context=context) (in Context) Matthew 25 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=25&version=31&context=chapter) (Whole Chapter)
Luke 13:28 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=49&chapter=13&verse=28&version=31&context=verse)
"There will be weeping there, and gnashing of teeth,
Luke 13:27-29 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=49&chapter=13&verse=27&end_verse=29&version=31&context=context) (in Context) Luke 13 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=49&chapter=13&version=31&context=chapter) (Whole Chapter)That doesn't sound very restful as the grace to me. Hell is all Jesus has said that it is.

I've shown that what references to 'fire' mean, repeatedly. I've explained the translation of all forms of the word that translate to 'grave', repeatedly. I've gone over all of this many of times.

Links are nice, but try and use reason. Make a logical case, because I've dealt with everything in your list of verses.

Can you explain Revelations 20:13-15? Of course not.

[Angel]

Proskyno - I have been reading all the posts. :-)

Jesus, GOD,The Holy Spirit

Cant' have one without the others :)

Angel :af

[proskyno]

Proskyno - I have been reading all the posts. :-)

Jesus, GOD,The Holy Spirit

Cant' have one without the others :)

Angel :af

Who is your 'God'? Why can't you write his name?

Show me in the Scriptures where the Trinity is based on....please. Actually, I'll save your time. It isn't. The Trinity isn't mentioned once in the Bible. The word isn't there.

The belief in the Trinity is from tradition, not from Scripture.

There is one God - the Father - Jehovah
There is his son - Jesus
The 'Holy Spirit' as you know it is the force of God here on earth.

1Co 8:5-6
For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,) But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

...........................................

I don't mean to attack or make you prove your view, even if it comes off that way. I know you really can't prove what you believe, cause it's not scriptual...it's based on tradition.

The only thing I ask is that you, in all honesty and with an open heart look for the real answers, not just what you have been told.

Look back at my post about the name of God. Look at it honestly and tell me you don't see the hint of something wrong there. Ask yourself what you should fear from the name of God - Jehovah. He is the God Jesus directed all praise to, and told us to pray to.

The answers that your religion can't provide are out there, if you really want them.

[Angel]

Proskyno you are right - I don't need to prove my view of what I believe because I have faith. Faith in Jesus Christ as my Saviour. Faith in the fact that Jesus was crucified and his blood was shed for me. My sins were wiped clean. You can't get to the Father except through Jesus Christ.:)

Matthew 10 verse 32
Therefore whoever confesses me before men him I will also confess before My Father who is in heaven but whoever denies Me before men him I also will deny before My Father who is in heaven."

Jesus was not just God's Son He was part of God's plan. He willingly died on the cross therefore providing a bridge between God and man opening up the only way for mankind to come to God and have eternal life and peace in heaven. Jesus is the "only" one through which we can have a loving relationship with God. Jesus "was" the Word of God.

John 8 verse 58

Jesus said to them, "Most assuredly I say too you, before Abraham was, I AM"

John ch1 verse 1 - 5

"In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things were made through Him and without Him nothing was made that was made. In Him was life and the life was the light of men. And the light shines in the darkness and the darkness did not comprehend it."

We can not enter the the kingdom of God unless one is born of water and the Spirit. John 3 verse 5 & 6

Jesus answered, "Most assuredly I say to you unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter the kingdom of God. That which is born of flesh is flesh and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit."

I never mentioned the word trinity either you did. I never said the word trinity was in the bible. All I said was, Jesus, God, The Holy Spirit, can't have one without the others.

John10 verse 27 - 30

"My sheep hear My voice and I know them and they follow Me. And I give them eternal life and they shall never perish, neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. My Father who has given them to Me is greater than all and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father's hand. "I AND MY FATHER ARE ONE"

You say "the answers that "MY" religeon can't provide". So what is "Your" religeon then. I am a believer in Christ, a Christian. I will not post any more threads now but will pray that God will reveal His truth to you and that He would give you his discernment to know the truth of His word. I have no fear of Hell! God bless you proskyno. :-)

Angel :af

[TheCowExpert]

no where in genesis is hell mentioned. nor is satan mentioned.
when did lucifer reject God, become prideful, and leave God's kingdom with other angels?

everything in God's creating was good right?

well then how did God create hell.


if everything was good there is no reason for hell!

SO HOW DOES THIS WORK!!!?!?!

First of all, God created hell because He knew that people would sin. Yeah, it doesn't seem to make sense that He would create us if He knew we would sin, but the fact is, that He created us for His pleasure, even though He has to send some to hell, a lot of ppl are good Chrisitans who further the cause of Christ. And he could have created us not to sin, but like I said in one other post, God limits Himself and lets us have a free will--which includes us sinning sometimes(unfortunately!).
I believe God made hell when He threw Lucifer out of Heaven, you know, a place for him to dwell. Does the Bible have to mention Lucifer getting kicked out of Heaven in Genesis to be true? Here are some scripture references for you to look up. I hope they will help! 2 Peter 2:4, Luke 10:17-18,Revelation 12:9, Isaiah 14:12,15,19 ;)

[proskyno]

John 8 verse 58

Jesus said to them, "Most assuredly I say too you, before Abraham was, I AM"


This is the strangest justification for the Trinity there is. It would be funny if so many people didn't grasp onto it without reason, without a rational basis.

I won't go into the differences between the languages, but suffice to say that you believe Jesus's declaration of being the same as god is based solely on using the word that translates to - I am......(greek 'ego').

The New Testament of the Bible constantly refer to Jesus as being created, as being the son, as declaring the message of the Father, of not knowing nor having the power of the Father.....but he used a pronoun to refer to himself, so he is the same as Jehovah? No, this is ridiculous.

I'd also note that at no point is the Holy Spirt refered to as 'ego' (I am), but the whole belief in the Trinity falls apart on any honest look.....so I won't go any farther than that.


John ch1 verse 1 - 5

"In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things were made through Him and without Him nothing was made that was made. In Him was life and the life was the light of men. And the light shines in the darkness and the darkness did not comprehend it."


If you believe that John 1:1 declares that Jehovah (the Father) is the same as Jesus (his son), then it's in direct conflict with 1:18 where it states that no man has seen God.

I could go of on an explanation of the why that verse cannot possibly be saying that

Suffice to say that if by declaring that 'Jesus is god' means that he is the same as Jehovah or equal in some way is wrong. It's a bad interpretation of the word God. Look at this example:

2Co 4:4 in whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of the unbelieving, that the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should not dawn upon them.

In this verse there are three things happening.....
1. Satan is refered to as 'theos' (Greek for God), so we see one of many cases where the word god is used to describe a spirit being - but not the same as Jehovah. (compare to John 1:1 referring to Jesus's existance at the beginning of our world....the reason it says he was a god is because he was a spirit being at that time).

2. It describes Jesus as a glorious messenger of God, but as a son is to their father - he is an image. He is not the same person. This is very important.

3. It also decribes how Satan, in control of the world as he is now, will blind us from the real message of Jesus - that of his Father, Jehovah.


The use of John 1:1 to say that Jesus is the same as Jehovah, by anyone with real knowledge of the translation, or scholarly work, is completely dishonest. They are misleading you.



I never mentioned the word trinity either you did. I never said the word trinity was in the bible. All I said was, Jesus, God, The Holy Spirit, can't have one without the others.

John10 verse 27 - 30

"My sheep hear My voice and I know them and they follow Me. And I give them eternal life and they shall never perish, neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. My Father who has given them to Me is greater than all and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father's hand. "I AND MY FATHER ARE ONE"


You pray to Jesus, right? You also won't acknowledge the name of God - Jehovah - that is written in the Bible 7000 times. You do that because of the Trinity. Because the modern Bible has been made to hide the one true God. Just like it says in that verse quoted above - Satan blinds us to the real message of Jesus, that of the Father.

Look at who Jesus constantly talks about during the gospels. He was here to tell us the message of his Father. "Our Father, who is in heavan, hallowed by thy name...."

Jesus prayed to Jehovah, told us to pray and praise his Father, alludes to the fact that only Jehovah knows what will happen and that all the powers of Jesus had came through Jehovah.

Joh 4:23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.

The Father seeketh such.....but you won't eve acknowledge his name. You can open the King James and see it, but it bothers you to recognize it. Think about that.

[germanJoy]

Proskyno, this is a christian chat forum where JESUS is received as LORD, where Jesus is received as God Himself, the Word that was God that became FLESH and dwells among us, where Jesus is seen as the Son (not small "s" but big "S") of God sitting at the right hand of God, and where Jesus is lifted up HIGHER AND HIGHER AND HIGHER according to the scriptures.

I can give you "tons" of scriptures that states the godly attributes of Jesus Christ being equal with God the Father. But unless the Holy Spirit comes to you and reveals this to you, you will never understand and accept it. It is the spirit of antichrist that makes you believe otherwise.

By this you know the Spirit of God: every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God; and every spirit that does not confess Jesus is NOT from God; and this is the spirit of antichrist, of which you have heard that it is coming, and now it is already in the world....By this we know that we abide in Him and He in us, because He has given us of His Spirit. And we have beheld and bear witness that the Father has sent the Son to be the Savior of the world. Whoever confesses that Jesus is the Son of God, God abides in him, and he in God......And we know that the Son of God has come, and has given us understanding, in order that we might know Him who is true, and we are in Him who is true, in His Son Jesus Christ. THIS IS THE TRUE GOD AND ETERNAL LIFE.
1 John 4:2-3, 13-15: 1 John 5:20

Jesus Christ is the TRUE GOD AND ETERNAL LIFE.

And if these verses still do not reach you, go to John 1:1,2,14

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God...And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth.

The Word was God. The Word was Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ was God who became flesh....

The reason why you don't get this revelation is because you do not believe in "Trinity" and only the HOLY SPIRIT CAN REVEAL THIS TO YOU. Please read my posts about God the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit under the thread "Does Trinity Exists" to get the whole picture of the importance on believing in One God in three distinct Persons according to scriptures.

-germanJoy-

[proskyno]

Proskyno, this is a christian chat forum where JESUS is received as LORD, where Jesus is received as God Himself, the Word that was God that became FLESH and dwells among us, where Jesus is seen as the Son (not small "s" but big "S") of God sitting at the right hand of God, and where Jesus is lifted up HIGHER AND HIGHER AND HIGHER according to the scriptures.

I can give you "tons" of scriptures that states the godly attributes of Jesus Christ being equal with God the Father. But unless the Holy Spirit comes to you and reveals this to you, you will never understand and accept it. It is the spirit of antichrist that makes you believe otherwise.

By this you know the Spirit of God: every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God; and every spirit that does not confess Jesus is NOT from God; and this is the spirit of antichrist, of which you have heard that it is coming, and now it is already in the world....By this we know that we abide in Him and He in us, because He has given us of His Spirit. And we have beheld and bear witness that the Father has sent the Son to be the Savior of the world. Whoever confesses that Jesus is the Son of God, God abides in him, and he in God......And we know that the Son of God has come, and has given us understanding, in order that we might know Him who is true, and we are in Him who is true, in His Son Jesus Christ. THIS IS THE TRUE GOD AND ETERNAL LIFE.
1 John 4:2-3, 13-15: 1 John 5:20

Jesus Christ is the TRUE GOD AND ETERNAL LIFE.

And if these verses still do not reach you, go to John 1:1,2,14

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God...And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth.

The Word was God. The Word was Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ was God who became flesh....

The reason why you don't get this revelation is because you do not believe in "Trinity" and only the HOLY SPIRIT CAN REVEAL THIS TO YOU. Please read my posts about God the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit under the thread "Does Trinity Exists" to get the whole picture of the importance on believing in One God in three distinct Persons according to scriptures.

-germanJoy-

The Trinity doesn't come from the Bible, therefore I don't believe in it.

The strongest proof of the Trinity is that Jesus used a pronoun to refer to himself....he said 'I am.....'. You have to look for obscure references to prove the Trinity and nothing in the Bible says it exists, much less that we have to believe in it.

This fact is very clear in the Bible - THERE IS ONE GOD - Jehovah. There is one Lord - Jesus.

Here are a bunch of verses that prove that the two are distinct....

Joh 14:28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.
(Proves that the Father and Son are not equal)

Mar 13:32 But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.
(Proves that the Father and Son are not equal)

Mat 26:39 And he went forward a little, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, My Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass away from me: nevertheless, not as I will, but as thou wilt.
(Proves that they are seperate with distinct wills)

Col 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
(Proves that Jesus was created)

Mat 20:23 And he saith unto them, Ye shall drink indeed of my cup, and be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with: but to sit on my right hand, and on my left, is not mine to give, but it shall be given to them for whom it is prepared of my Father.
(Proves Father and Son are not equal; Read from verse 20 in context)

Mat 12:31 Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.
(If the Holy Spirit were a seperate person then this contradicts that all three are equal)

1Co 11:3 But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.
(Jehovah is ranked above Jesus, as usual, no mention of Holy Spirit)

1Co 15:27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.
(Specificially states that Jehovah is NOT under Jesus....that all things are under Jesus EXCEPT for Jehovah)

1Co 8:5 For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,)
1Co 8:6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.
(Self explanatory, and no mention of the Holy Spirit as an entity, as usual)

1Pe 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
(Praising Jehovah, after Jesus)

Still, look at what you read as a whole. I refer you again to the first chapters of Hebrew where it would make a tremendous amount of sense for the writer and the inspiriation to explain a 'Trinity' if that was the case. It isn't explained - just like it isn't explain anywhere in the Bible.

Trinitarians base their belief cause Jesus used a pronoun....he said 'I am'.....when all evidence throughout the Bible says that's not the case.

If it takes a spirit to give you this knowledge which is not in the Bible, then I want nothing to do with that spirit and I am sure that the spirit has nothing to do with the true God - Jehovah or his son Jesus.

[germanJoy]

Taking parts of Scriptures while ignoring the others leads to heresies. Taking
THE WHOLE SCRIPTURES leads to the TRUTH.

The strongest proof of the Trinity is that Jesus used a pronoun to refer to himself..he said 'I am'.

If you introduce yourself, Proskyno, are you also using a pronoun? This is how Jesus introduced Himself. He said, "I AM HE." That is a clear NOUN, not PRONOUN.

And so they were saying to Him, "Who are You?"... They did not realize that He had been speaking to them about the Father. Jesus therefore said; 'When you lift up the Son of Man then you will know that I am He, ..... John 8:25-28

Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I AM. Therefore they picked up stones to throw at Him... John 8:58

Here are a bunch of verses that prove that the two are distinct....Joh 14:28 for my Father is greater than I.
(Proves that the Father and Son are not equal....

That exactly is what makes Trinity as the ONLY BIBLICAL/TRUTHFUL belief because it teaches ONE GOD in THREE DISTINCT PERSONS. The Father and the Son are BOTH distinct and equal. Equality does not restrict two persons to be distinct. For example, I am a German citizen. I am distinct from the other German citizens but EQUAL with them as a German citizen. Got the point?

Jesus as the Son of Man laid down His humble distinct personality with the Father. And as the Son of God, Jesus laid down His equal attributes with the Father. As the Son lifts up the Father, the Father in return lifts up the Son as well. They lift up ONE ANOTHER. The jews saw Jesus is CLAIMING EQUALITY with Yahweh and therefore THEY CRUCIFIED JESUS because they believed ONLY IN ONE GOD, Jehovah and for them no man this case JESUS can equal a JEHOVAH. But they are wrong because JESUS IS EQUAL WITH JEHOVAH. THE SON IS EQUAL WITH THE FATHER.

For this cause therefore the Jews were seeking all the more to kill Him, because He not only was breaking the Sabbath, but also was calling God His own Father, MAKING HIMSELF EQUAL WITH GOD. John 5:18

And I looked, and behold, the Lamb was standing on Mount Zion, and with Him, 144,000, having His name ("the Son Jesus") and the name of His Father ("the Father Yahweh) written on their foreheads.
Do you also see the two names of the Father and the Son in the END TIMES LIFTED UP TOGETHER indicating their EQUALITY?

Col 1:15 (Proves that Jesus was created)

Jesus was not created but "firstborn". The Greek for "firstborn" is prototokos, which means "preeminence" and "eternal preexistence," according to Greek lexicons. It does not mean "first-created". Apart from being untrue linguistically, this heretical interpretation is contradicted in the next two verses (Col. 1:16-17), which inform that Christ "created all things", and that He "is before all things". The Hebrew usage of "firstborn" is also instructive, since it illustrates its meaning as "preeminent". David is called "firstborn" in Ps. 89:27, not because he was the literal first child of Jesse (for he was the youngest), but in the sense of his ascendancy to the kingship of Israel. The Jewish rabbinical writers even called God the Father Bekorah Shelolam, meaning "firstborn of all creation", that is, the Creator. This is precisely how St. Paul uses the "firstborn" phraseology in Col. 1:15

Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature. For by Him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether (they be) thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: And he is before all things, and by him all things consist. And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firsborn from the dead; that in all (things) He might have the preeminence. For it pleased (the Father) that in Him should ALL FULNESS dwell. Col. 1:15-19

Mat 12:31 (If the Holy Spirit were a seperate person then this contradicts that all three are equal)

The above verse is the distinct personality of the Holy Spirit. To discuss about the Holy Spirit, we need a different thread as it is very comprehensive and would take so much space to do it.

1Co 11:3 ....the head of Christ is God.
(Jehovah is ranked above Jesus, as usual, no mention of Holy Spirit)

1Co 15:27 For he hath put all things under his feet...(Specificially states that Jehovah is NOT under Jesus....that all things are under Jesus EXCEPT for Jehovah)

Jesus' subjection (as Messiah) to the Father is necessary and self-explanatory as seen in John 14:28 "...for my Father is greater than I" and 1 Cor. 11:3 and 1 Cor. 15:28. These verses have been utilized historically by heretics such as the Arians (of whom Jehovah's Witnesses are a revival), as well as non-trinitarian theists such as Unitarians, to "prove" that Jesus is lesser than the Father and therefore not God in the flesh (antichrist teaching according to 1 John 4:1-3.) Upon closer inspection however, a clearer picture emerges.

John 14:28 is to be understood in light of passages such as Philippians 2:6-8, which show that Christ in John 14:28 was speaking strictly in terms of his ofice as Messiah, which entailed a giving up, not of the Divine Nature, but of certain prerogatives of glory and Deity which are enjoyed by the Father. Christ subjected Himself to the Father in order to undertake His role as the Incarnate Son and Mediator between God and man (1 Tim 2:5). Similarly, one might say that "the US President is a greater man than I am" but this would not mean he was necessarily a better man. In any even, he is still a man like us. Since Jesus is still God, even while "humbling" Himself (Phil. 2:8), Scripture also indicates that the Father is, in a sense, "subject" to the Son:

John 16:15 All things that the Father hath are mine; therefore said I, that He shall take of mine, and shall shew (it) unto you."

John 16:23 And in that day ye shall ask me nothing. Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall ask the Father IN MY NAME, He will give (it) to you.

When the Father is called the "head" of the Son (1 Cor 11:3), this also does not entail any lessening of equality between the Son and the Father. The Bible also talks about wives being subject to their husbands (1 Pet 3:1,5) even while the TWO ARE EQUALS (Gal 3:28, Eph 5:21-22), and indeed, "ONE FLESH" (Mt. 19:5-6). Likewise, one Person of the Godhead can be in subjection to another Person and remain God in essence and substance (Phil 2:6-8). Luke 2:51 says that Jesus was "subject" to Mary and Joseph. Yet no orthodox Christian of any stripe sould hold that Jesus was lesser in essence than His earthly parents! The same Greek word for "subject" in Luke 2:51 hupotasso is used in 1 Cor. 15:28 and 1 Pet. 2:18. Besides, submissiveness and servanthood is not presented as a sign of weakness in Scripture BUT OBEDIENCE.

Matthew 23:11 But he that is great among you shall be your servant.

The word for "greatest" here is meizon, the same word used in John 14:28. Thus, any notion that submissiveness is a lessening of equality is ABSOLUTELY UNSCRIPTURAL.

Likewise, in 1 Cor. 15:28, the subjection spoken is that of the Son as incarnate, not the Son as Son in essence. While this verse tells us that God will be "all in all", Col. 3:11 tells us that "... Christ (is) all in all". Thus Jesus' office as Messiah and Mediator will cease in time, BUT NOT HIS GODHOOD, since Scripture teaches that He will be "all in all" just as His Father is.
Source: http://ic.net/~erasmus/RAZ98.HTM (with some personal alterations made)

If it takes a spirit to give you this knowledge which is not in the Bible, then I want nothing to do with that spirit and I am sure that the spirit has nothing to do with the true God - Jehovah or his son Jesus

If you do not want to have anything to do with WHAT THE SPIRIT SAYS in the bible (as proven by the many Scriptures given to make your points NULL AND VOID), then your belief (that Jesus is NOT God who came in the flesh) will qualify you to ETERNAL FIRE, HADES AND DEATH according to the Scriptures.

And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up; that whoever believes may in Him have ETERNAL LIFE.....He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged ALREADY, because he has not believed IN THE NAME OF THE ONLY BEGOTTEN SON OF GOD. John 3:14-18

And He (Jesus) said to me, "It is done, I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give to the one who thirsts from the spring of the water of life without cost. He who overcomes shall inherit these things, and I will be his God and he will be My son. But for the cowardly and UNBELIEVING and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the LAKE THAT BURNS WITH FIRE AND BRIMSTONE, WHICH IS THE SECOND DEATH." Revelations 21:6-8

[onfire4christ]

no where in genesis is hell mentioned. nor is satan mentioned.
when did lucifer reject God, become prideful, and leave God's kingdom with other angels?

everything in God's creating was good right?

well then how did God create hell.


if everything was good there is no reason for hell!

SO HOW DOES THIS WORK!!!?!?!

In Ezekiel, the Lord speaks to Ezekiel and gives this discription of Satan (real name Lucifier)


Ezekiel 28:13-19 Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created. Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire. Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee. By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire. Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee. Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee. All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more.

To explain this a bit better, Lucifier was and still is an Angel. Now fallin. But still and angel. These pictures of a red dude with pitchfork and pointy tail...No, that's not him. According to the scripture above, He was a beautiful angel that made music when he walked.

Ever noticed how enticing sin is, how it makes everything look so awesome and fun. But then you get into it and you find out just how deadly it can be.
Like alcohol ads, they show these women fawning all over the guy, him being popular with the girls and guys, being everybodies buddy. Ever met and alcoholic before? I have and believe me, their nothing like that, by that time they have lost just about everything they've every had.

Hell was not created for us. It was created for Satan and his angels.


Matthew 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

Have some questions for you?

You think your a Good person?

Have you ever lied? if you have then your a liar
Have you ever commited adultery? Jesus tells us this in Matthew.

Matthew 5:27-28 Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery: But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.

So if you 've looked at a woman with lust in your heart you've already commit adultery.
You see Christ takes it one step further, he's not only concerned on what we show on the outside, remember, he knows our intentions also.

Have you ever commited Murder? Jesus tells us this.

Matthew 5:21-22 Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment: But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.

If your angry with your brother, meaning anyone, or call him ugly names, or make fun of him. Or gossip about him or her you have murdered their spirit and them. The only reason why you haven't done it physically is because you wouldn't get away with it. Remember, God knows our every thought.

So, if you've done any of these three, which it would be hard for me to believe you havent' cause i know I have.

Then your a lying, adulterous, murderer...OUCH!

I know your going to say, your judging me....Nope I'm not. I'm asking you to be honest with your self and with God. I have to live by the same standards as you do. I check myself as we are told to in 2 Corinthians

2 Corinthians 13:5 Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?

How do I do this? By God's standards the 10 commandments. They never went away, the're still around. and Yes, I believe we will be judged by them.

Now tell me, if you have agreed to the above things and you are what you say you are, then by God's Standards the 10 commandments would you be guilty or innocent?

Would you go to Heaven of Hell?


The Word tells us there is none good.Matthew 19:17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

Even Christ said not to call him good. Even though he had no sin. He still tells the man only God is good.

[OneVoice]

I've shown that what references to 'fire' mean, repeatedly. I've explained the translation of all forms of the word that translate to 'grave', repeatedly. I've gone over all of this many of times.

Links are nice, but try and use reason. Make a logical case, because I've dealt with everything in your list of verses.

Can you explain Revelations 20:13-15? Of course not.

Revelations 20:13-15
13The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what he had done. 14Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. 15If anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

Looks pretty self explanatory to me. What about it don't you understand?

Hell is Hell.
The lake of fire is also used to refer to Hell.
Anything wrong with God throwing Hell into its;ef .... besides the fact that it is something God says He will do and YOU don't see how?

He's God. he said it.
It can be trusted.
What is you particular problem with that?

And I will apologize if I went out side your box and didn't give you the answer you were hoping for.
And I apologize that the scriptures I offered don't really support what you would like.
But God has said these things.
You can believe it or reject it.
You can argue against it all you like.
So far no one who has read about Hell in the Bible and has access to a Bible for research, and prayerfully reading, study, seeking and discernment has agreed with you.

I see where you might could get some of your ideas, but better reading and prayerful searching leaves those ideas wanting in reason and logic according to what God has established through Himself and in His own word.

I'll stay with what I find in the Bible.
And I find that the Bible re-affirms, validate, clarifies, and verifies everything is says in it's own pages fully and to absolute dissatisfaction of all logic and reason.

Justifying that to you is not really my job.
God has done it well enough for you in the text and spirit of His living word.

OneVoice

[proskyno]

Revelations 20:13-15
13The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what he had done. 14Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. 15If anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

Looks pretty self explanatory to me. What about it don't you understand?

Hell is Hell.
The lake of fire is also used to refer to Hell.
Anything wrong with God throwing Hell into its;ef .... besides the fact that it is something God says He will do and YOU don't see how?

He's God. he said it.
It can be trusted.
What is you particular problem with that?
And I will apologize if I went out side your box and didn't give you the answer you were hoping for.
And I apologize that the scriptures I offered don't really support what you would like.
But God has said these things.
You can believe it or reject it.
You can argue against it all you like.


I don't have any problem with the verse, cause I actually understand what it means and can explain it to you. My explanation is reasonable, and makes sense, unlike yours.

You freely admit you CANNOT explain it....but boast in your lack of knowledge, confident and prideful in beliefs that are unfounded in Scripture.



So far no one who has read about Hell in the Bible and has access to a Bible for research, and prayerfully reading, study, seeking and discernment has agreed with you.


The origins of 'hellfire as torment' are documented as originating directly from the Catholic Church.....they come from the Latin Vulgate and from the false religions of Babylon/Assyrian empires before that.


Justifying that to you is not really my job.
God has done it well enough for you in the text and spirit of His living word.


The mission of every Christian is to spread the message of Christ. You profess great knowledge, and if that is the case, you should be willing to share it.

................................

I'll make my request again......

Revelations 20:13-15

Explain to me what it means that Hell is cast into the Lake of Fire........anyone.

My point is that you cannot torture a place, especially given that the verse SPECIFICALLY says all those found unworthy are also thrown into the lake of fire. So, if you cannot torture a place, this means that the lake of fire is DESTRUCTION.

Hell, which translates (usually) to Hades or Sheol, actually translates to the 'grave'. What this verse means is that death itself will be destroyed along with Satan and all those who follow Satan.



I'd press everyone to explain Ecc 9:5,10 and Ps 146:4 too.....how they clearly describe the 'afterlife' as nothingness.

[proskyno]

Slightly out of order and I might miss some stuff. As usual - I will back up everything I don't reference if you ask. I'll also cover anything I skip if you think it's important......just ask.


Jesus was not created but "firstborn". The Greek for "firstborn" is prototokos, which means "preeminence" and "eternal preexistence," according to Greek lexicons. It does not mean "first-created". Apart from being untrue linguistically, this heretical interpretation is contradicted in the next two verses (Col. 1:16-17), which inform that Christ "created all things", and that He "is before all things". The Hebrew usage of "firstborn" is also instructive, since it illustrates its meaning as "preeminent". David is called "firstborn" in Ps. 89:27, not because he was the literal first child of Jesse (for he was the youngest), but in the sense of his ascendancy to the kingship of Israel. The Jewish rabbinical writers even called God the Father Bekorah Shelolam, meaning "firstborn of all creation", that is, the Creator. This is precisely how St. Paul uses the "firstborn" phraseology in Col. 1:15


Where do you get that protokos does not mean first born? What dictionary/lex?

Strongs:
first born (usually as noun, literally or figuratively): - firstbegotten (-born).

Thayer:
1) the firstborn
1a) of man or beast
1b) of Christ, the first born of all creation

Vines - agrees with above, and even points out that Jesus is refered to as his mother Mary's protokos (firstborn) in Luke 2:7

My Greek Lex says the same....I can't find anything that refers to 'eternal preexistence'. Please cite your source.



If you introduce yourself, Proskyno, are you also using a pronoun? This is how Jesus introduced Himself. He said, "I AM HE." That is a clear NOUN, not PRONOUN.


Jo 8:58 (KJV) Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.

He existed before Abraham. We know this. The first verse of the book says En arche an o Logos.....in the beginning was the Word. You probably don't have to look at the reference to see that this is referring to Gen 1.

Jesus existed before our world existed.....that does not mean he existed before Jehovah.

There are a number of places where the Bible refers to Jesus being 'created'. Note the popular John 3:16 (KJ