Essential for our salvation or secondary issue?

[Thirsty]

Is our understanding the issue of GOD's sovereignty and mans freewill essential for our salvation?
By Thirsty:-O

[Thirsty]

Is our understanding the issue of GOD's sovereignty and mans freewill essential for our salvation?
By Thirsty:-O

John 1:12-13 "But as many received HIM, to them HE gave the right to become children of GOD, even to those who believe in HIS name, who were born, not of blood nor the will of the flesh nor the will of man, but of GOD."

[LovedBubba]

I wonder if God can transmit information back and forth through time?

John 1:12,13

12But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: 13Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

In these two verses the play between man's free will and God's absolute power seem to both be affirmed?? the only way I seem to be able to wrap my brain around it is if God can transmit information back and forth through time for God is not bound by time???

just a loony thought for the masses...

[blueheron32]

bubba... these verses do not assert the "free will" of man at all...but in fact, deny it in the plainest of language.... it says..

NOT of the will of the flesh...
NOT of the will of man...

BUT OF GOD!!!!

Mans will is a slave to his nature...it is not free...

blue

[godslove]

hi thirsty,
it's about believing in Jesus Christ, not about being a theologian.
it's about a heart change, not about how much knowledge we have.
of course if you come to Jesus with something in your hand, then you are a debtor to do the whole law.
but only God can change hearts. make you a new creature. man cannot change himself. and in reality in his heart he doesn't want to change.
a while back a thought came to mind. would not heaven be hell for a unbeliever? he likes doing his own will, not God's.
but what are some of the reasons that man may come to Jesus besides salvation?
to glorify himself i think is the main one. he wants to come on his own terms. he doesn't want to really change. he believes that he should be accepted as he is.
the next one i think is to ease a guilty conscience. if he can throw up some religious works like he is doing the best he can. then he can ignore his responsibilities.
one way that people refuse to come to Christ is they are willfully ignorant. they don't want to hear. somehow they believe that if they plead ignorance they will be able to get away with thier sins.
perhaps i got carried away. but this is what is on my heart.
..God bless.

[Thirsty]

hi thirsty,
it's about believing in Jesus Christ, not about being a theologian.
it's about a heart change, not about how much knowledge we have.
of course if you come to Jesus with something in your hand, then you are a debtor to do the whole law.
but only God can change hearts. make you a new creature. man cannot change himself. and in reality in his heart he doesn't want to change.
a while back a thought came to mind. would not heaven be hell for a unbeliever? he likes doing his own will, not God's.
but what are some of the reasons that man may come to Jesus besides salvation?
to glorify himself i think is the main one. he wants to come on his own terms. he doesn't want to really change. he believes that he should be accepted as he is.
the next one i think is to ease a guilty conscience. if he can throw up some religious works like he is doing the best he can. then he can ignore his responsibilities.
one way that people refuse to come to Christ is they are willfully ignorant. they don't want to hear. somehow they believe that if they plead ignorance they will be able to get away with thier sins.
perhaps i got carried away. but this is what is on my heart.
..God bless.
Hello godslove, even Mormons and Jehovahs Witnesses say they believe in Jesus but will still end up in hell if they reject the true Jesus of GOD's word and the bible warns about believing in a dirrerent Jesus than the one preached by the apostles and most of the bible is full of theology and doctrine and truth does matter so I greatly disagree with you in that area but the other things you said I agree but it has nothing to do with what you said about theology. Jesus is the WAY, the TRUTH, and the LIFE and the bible says Father sanctify them in the truth, your word is truth,.....also GOD's word says and you will know the truth and the truth shall make you free and if the SON has set you free you shall be free indeed......straight from GOD's word which is also in my heart......GOD bless you as well.

[godslove]

yes i agree, certainly my post needed some clarification.
but to clarify what i was trying to say is that the belief is in the heart.
a born agains idea of beliveing in and the worlds idea of believeing in are two differant things.
of course thier are certain things one would assume are required to believe in ones heart. and the cults don't have it.
but to say that understanding predestination or even knowing of it is required is to take it to the other extreme, certainly the thief on the cross did not have a through view of predestination. how about the keeper at the prison? could he have known that much about the doctrine of predestination?

Ac 16:30 And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?
31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

the belief is in the heart. it is done by God. it can not be suggested that there is something man has to know or do unless God so decrees it.
and then God would cause it to be.
man cannot prepare himself by learning. it would end up being by works.
the phrase that many people use for those who have come to Christ with thier mind is that they have a head knowledge of Christ but not a heart knowledge.
God bless.

Ro 10:10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.


Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

[Thirsty]

yes i agree, certainly my post needed some clarification.
but to clarify what i was trying to say is that the belief is in the heart.
a born agains idea of beliveing in and the worlds idea of believeing in are two differant things.
of course thier are certain things one would assume are required to believe in ones heart. and the cults don't have it.
but to say that understanding predestination or even knowing of it is required is to take it to the other extreme, certainly the thief on the cross did not have a through view of predestination. how about the keeper at the prison? could he have known that much about the doctrine of predestination?

Ac 16:30 And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?
31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

the belief is in the heart. it is done by God. it can not be suggested that there is something man has to know or do unless God so decrees it.
and then God would cause it to be.
man cannot prepare himself by learning. it would end up being by works.
the phrase that many people use for those who have come to Christ with thier mind is that they have a head knowledge of Christ but not a heart knowledge.
God bless.

Ro 10:10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.


Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
godslove I tried to explain myself but I don't think you really understand where I'm coming from so I'm sorry and I do stand on the GOD's sovereignty and predestination side because it seems like you think that I don't. I only started this poll to see what others think just out of curiousity and I believe that through the fall of Adam that everyone's freewill is in bondage and only the Holy Spirit can cause us to be born again and give us the gift of faith in Christ by His grace alone. I don't know what else to tell you cause it seems you just don't understand where I'm coming from but I pray that GOD will give you understanding and the Holy Spirit teach you and grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. Thanks for trying to challenge me though.

[m.o.m.]

Hello Thirsty,

I, like you...and like God's love...believe in God's Sovereignty in Salavation. But as to your original question of

Is our understanding the issue of GOD's sovereignty and mans freewill essential for our salvation?
By Thirsty

I do not believe understanding God's Sovereignty in so many words is required for our Salavation. I do not believe I suddenly became any more of God's elect when the "doctrine" of election was made clear to me in God's word through the Holy Spirit. We come as children...wrapping our arms around Jesus because He first loved us...because God gave us ears to hear. Understanding of the act of God's grace comes as God reveals it to us. Lack of understanding does not make it any less powerful or real.

Perhaps we are all saying the same thing...God bless!

m.o.m.

[blueheron32]

Thirsty.. Having thought about this for a bit... I have come to the conclusion that indeed, our understanding the issue of Gods sovereignty and mans free will, is essential for our salvation. I understand the others questions about that, and in some ways, I would agree with them.

I think the confusion lies in the definition of what salvation is. Some think of salvation as, regeneration. But regeneration, by itself is not salvation. Some think of salvation as, conversion. But conversion by itself, is not salvation. Salvation properly understood, is a whole series of steps performed by the act of Gods free grace on behalf of the one being saved. It includes, election, the call, regeneration, conversion, justification, adoption, sanctification, perseverance, death, and glorification.

A person may be one of Gods elect, and not understand the doctrine of Gods sovereignty. A person may hear the effectual call of the Gospel, and not understand completely, he may be regenerated, and not understand... but I am convinced, that not a single person will reach heaven in their glorified state, without a clear understanding of the sovereignty of God. In the final analysis, of salvation, that understanding is essential.

There is another place, where it is essential, and that is in the area of teaching. Any one who comes teaching a gospel message that does not include a clear communication of the sovereignty of God, exposes himself to Gods curse. If the gospel is preached, election, predestination, judgment, regeneration, and all the rest, must be taught. That IS the gospel, and without all of it, it is not the gospel. If it was not essential, God would not have revealed it.

Gal 1:8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.

blue

[brotherbernard]

Good morning everyone,

I am sure that the theological monuments that church communities have set up over the last 2000 years are important to those who diligently gather around them. They remind us of the theological history pertinent to our Christian experience. But are they necessary for salvation? I would have to answer a clear and resounding NO! The one and only essential thing necessary for the salvation of humankind is the atoning sacrifice of Christ. The only monument left after the board is cleared of the traditions and teachings of men is the Cross on Golgotha. Theological doctrine and teaching should only be used to clarify the meaning of what Christ has done for us - not confuse it! Unfortunately, what in heart-felt sincerity is taught to uplift the Cross becomes so disproportionately important to us, that it actually overshadows that which it was only meant to clarify.

Simply said; the dying thief turned from his sinful rebellion and looked to a dying Savior. And remember, it was Christ Himself who uttered the wonderful words of promise, " . . . you shall be with me in paradise". No qualifying mantle of theological dogma had to be thrown over the thief - Christ's blood was enough.

Christ plus nothing.

Sincerely,
Brother Bernard

[Conscience]

John 1:12-13 "But as many received HIM, to them HE gave the right to become children of GOD, even to those who believe in HIS name, who were born, not of blood nor the will of the flesh nor the will of man, but of GOD."

Hi, it is always good when people use scripture to make a point. It is even better to really know what the verses are telling us. I have heard this verse used many times and 10 times out of two (lol) it is used incorrectly.

Please notice that this verse is actually teaching us that those who believe have the power to become children of God...

This verse is actually teaching us that those who believe are on their way to becoming Christians if they act on what the word of God instructs them to do by faith ( Rom.10:17) (Heb.11). It is not saying they are Christians by belief alone.

Check me out on this (Act 17:11) (John 5:39).

Conscience

[Thirsty]

Thirsty.. Having thought about this for a bit... I have come to the conclusion that indeed, our understanding the issue of Gods sovereignty and mans free will, is essential for our salvation. I understand the others questions about that, and in some ways, I would agree with them.

I think the confusion lies in the definition of what salvation is. Some think of salvation as, regeneration. But regeneration, by itself is not salvation. Some think of salvation as, conversion. But conversion by itself, is not salvation. Salvation properly understood, is a whole series of steps performed by the act of Gods free grace on behalf of the one being saved. It includes, election, the call, regeneration, conversion, justification, adoption, sanctification, perseverance, death, and glorification.

A person may be one of Gods elect, and not understand the doctrine of Gods sovereignty. A person may hear the effectual call of the Gospel, and not understand completely, he may be regenerated, and not understand... but I am convinced, that not a single person will reach heaven in their glorified state, without a clear understanding of the sovereignty of God. In the final analysis, of salvation, that understanding is essential.

There is another place, where it is essential, and that is in the area of teaching. Any one who comes teaching a gospel message that does not include a clear communication of the sovereignty of God, exposes himself to Gods curse. If the gospel is preached, election, predestination, judgment, regeneration, and all the rest, must be taught. That IS the gospel, and without all of it, it is not the gospel. If it was not essential, God would not have revealed it.

Gal 1:8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.

blue
Blue that is an excellent response and answer and I agree 100%

thankyou my friend and brother in the Lord Jesus Christ

[roysim]

Hi brother,

Personally, I think this is not a salvation issue, as the scripture said, that if you know the truth, the truth will set you free, it did not say it will save you, for it only help you to see better.

When one understand God's point of view about this, then you are free from the fears of wander whether will you loose your salvation after you are saved or when you have done something wrong.

Brother, we were saved 2000 years ago when the LORD Jesus died for our sins, and rose from the dead again, we just have to simply accept it by faith and be born again in the power of his resurrection, that we may be rooted and grounded in God's love which passeth all knowledge and understanding.

God don't save you today and loose you tomorrow brother, so give thank and have faith in God.

God bless you.

[Thirsty]

Hi brother,

Personally, I think this is not a salvation issue, as the scripture said, that if you know the truth, the truth will set you free, it did not say it will save you, for it only help you to see better.

When one understand God's point of view about this, then you are free from the fears of wander whether will you loose your salvation after you are saved or when you have done something wrong.

Brother, we were saved 2000 years ago when the LORD Jesus died for our sins, and rose from the dead again, we just have to simply accept it by faith and be born again in the power of his resurrection, that we may be rooted and grounded in God's love which passeth all knowledge and understanding.

God don't save you today and loose you tomorrow brother, so give thank and have faith in God.

God bless you.
Well thankyou for responding Roysim but this question I posted didn't have anything to do with wether we lose our salvation or not but on wether us understanding the issue completly of GOD's sovereignty versus freewill is essential to us being saved or not...and I with no doubt believe that a person who has truly been born again cannot ever lose their salvation I think the scriptures are clear on that and the passages that some people claim to show that a christian can are just misunderstanding the passage and I believe that those passages are refering to those who have a profession of faith rather than a posession of faith who fall away or are apostates....like when Jesus said that there will be those who at the coming of Christ will say to Jesus Lord Lord...and then He says I never knew you...depart from me ye workers of iniquity....and some may say that for instance the Apostle Paul wrote these letters to christians where they say it sounds like at times Paul is saying that a true christian can lose there salvation... but Paul is just warning those who are not really christians but think they are, that they will not enter the kingdom of GOD because Paul knows there will always be goats with sheep and tares with wheat and wolves in sheeps clothing such as Satan who disguises himself as an angel of light until the harvest when Christ comes again and sets things right. Also I stand with GOD and His word which shows clearly GOD's sovereignty and that He is sovereign in our salvation and that man having freewill is a myth created by people who by the sinful nature are trying to take credit for what GOD alone can do but also I don't think people who are truly saved by the Lord may fully understand GOD's sovereignty but in time the Holy Spirit of truth our Wonderful Counselor will reveal these things to us as confirmed in GOD's holy word and lead us into all truth... so please read carefully and pray to understand these things ....GOD bless you in Jesus name

[Conscience]

hi thirsty,
it's about believing in Jesus Christ, not about being a theologian.
it's about a heart change, not about how much knowledge we have.
of course if you come to Jesus with something in your hand, then you are a debtor to do the whole law.
but only God can change hearts. make you a new creature. man cannot change himself. and in reality in his heart he doesn't want to change.
a while back a thought came to mind. would not heaven be hell for a unbeliever? he likes doing his own will, not God's.
but what are some of the reasons that man may come to Jesus besides salvation?
to glorify himself i think is the main one. he wants to come on his own terms. he doesn't want to really change. he believes that he should be accepted as he is.
the next one i think is to ease a guilty conscience. if he can throw up some religious works like he is doing the best he can. then he can ignore his responsibilities.
one way that people refuse to come to Christ is they are willfully ignorant. they don't want to hear. somehow they believe that if they plead ignorance they will be able to get away with thier sins.
perhaps i got carried away. but this is what is on my heart.
..God bless.

I am concerned about you saying it is not about how much knowledge one has. Here is why,The word of God teaches us that it is by the knowledge of Jesus Christ that man escapse the pollution of the world (2Peter 2:20).

20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.

Conscience

[Thirsty]

godslove I tried to explain myself but I don't think you really understand where I'm coming from so I'm sorry and I do stand on the GOD's sovereignty and predestination side because it seems like you think that I don't. I only started this poll to see what others think just out of curiousity and I believe that through the fall of Adam that everyone's freewill is in bondage and only the Holy Spirit can cause us to be born again and give us the gift of faith in Christ by His grace alone. I don't know what else to tell you cause it seems you just don't understand where I'm coming from but I pray that GOD will give you understanding and the Holy Spirit teach you and grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. Thanks for trying to challenge me though.
I wanted to clarify something that I noticed I typed so please forgive me for anyone who has read it because the part that I typed quote "I believe that through the fall of Adam that everyone's freewill is in bondage and only the Holy Spirit can cause us to be born again and give us the gift of faith in Christ", the part that says "everyones freewill is in bondage" I meant to say "everyones will is in bondage to sin..." not everyones freewill, which is a contradiction and also freewill is a myth. Sorry for the typing error because I know I am accountable to the Lord for correctly teaching GOD's word.....may GOD give us more insight to this subject and keep the peace with GOD's people and sharpen one another as iron sharpens iron...and may GOD the Holy Spirit of Truth continue to give us His Wonderful Counsel by His grace in Christ alone, and may the lies be exposed to those who believe falsely by the truth of GOD's word and the Holy Spirit continue to convict the world concerning sin and righteousness and judgement; concerning sin, because they do not believe in Christ; and concerning righteousness, because Christ went to the Father and we no longer see Him; and concerning judgement, because the ruler of this world has been judged.<---John 16:8-11...and also this which Jesus said about peace regarding His children in John 16:33 "These things I have spoken to you, so that in Me you may have peace. In the world you have tribulatation, but take courage; I have overcome the world." Then in John 14:27 "Peace I leave with you; My peace I give to you; not as the world gives do I give to you. Do not let your heart be troubled, nor let it be fearful." but to us regarding the world He says in Matthew 10:34-36 "Do not think that I came to bring peace on the earth; I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. For I came to set a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law; a man's enemies will be the members of his household." and that is because of those who believe the lie and hate the truth concerning GOD and His word, but yes as the Lord as my witness I speak the truth in love for I know that without love I am nothing yet glory and praise to GOD alone...GOD bless you in Jesus name brothers and sisters in Christ.....Amen

[eyetguy]

:)
Thirsty,

I don’t think understanding this issue a requirement for salvation. When Jesus is asked the question, “What must I do to be saved?” Understanding the issue of God’s sovereignty and mans freewill is never mentioned.

Ac 16:30-31
And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved ?
31 And they said, BELIEVE on the lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be SAVED, and thy house.
KJV

Jesus most often states in one way or another that one must believe in Him. Believing in Him is more than just believing that He exists, (Muslims even believe He existed). This believe basically encompasses believing in who He is, what He did, and why He did it.

Jn 3:15-16
15 That whosoever BELIEVETH in him should not perish, but have ETERNAL LIFE .
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that WHOSOEVER BELIEVETH in him should not perish, but have EVERLASTING LIFE.
KJV

Ro 10:9 .
9 That IF THOU SHALT CONFESS WITH THY MOUTH THE LORD JESUS, and shalt BELIEVE IN THINE HEART that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
KJV

A person does not have to be a theologian to be saved. However, the Bible contains a wealth of knowledge that can help us grow as Christians as we continue to study God’s word.
:)
God Bless you brother,
Eye

[sparrow]

bubba... these verses do not assert the "free will" of man at all...but in fact, deny it in the plainest of language.... it says..

NOT of the will of the flesh...
NOT of the will of man...

BUT OF GOD!!!!

Mans will is a slave to his nature...it is not free...

blue
Man is a slave one way or the other. Either to sin (man's nature). Or to Righteousness (God's Nature).

The more I read and consult God on the matter, the more I understand the only sort of free-will people really have is along the lines of choosing which color of socks they'll wear for the day. :-p


Ephesians 1
11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:
12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.


sparrow

[Thirsty]

John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

John1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

13Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

Surely the Apostle John thought it necessary for us to understand it in this respect;)

[Bibleeater]

Gods soverenty and salvation does not depend on our intellectual understanding or rational argument otherwise your argument contradicts itself, not a worthwhile debate .Gods soverienty reaches our to our response which is controlled by His soverienty(chosen before the foundation of time remember , God knew who would choose Him back.

[godslove]

hi bible eater, what Scripture are you quoting when you say that God knew who would choose Him back? ...God bless.

[Numbers624]

GOD's sovereignty is an issue because if you are not aware/believe that He alone has the power and authority to send you to hell, or Heaven.