Does God forgives a person for self murder?

[AJ_76]

Please give a scripture (s) to support your answer. Opinions are welcome also.

[Daytimeson23]

Matthew 12:31 says that self murder is forgiven, the problem lies in the fact that some do not believe Christ paid for all the sins of those he saved past present and future. Also they believe that somehow asking for forgiveness guarantees your sin had been paid for however, if that was a requirement no one would go to heaven because ask ourselves this, when you drove 1mph over the speed limit did you stop and ask for forgiveness? I highly doubt it.

[Robert]

The short answer is no one on earth could make that call. The one who has committed suicide, ( Self murder ) having already died, is not able to repent and ask for forgiveness.
So he/she will not know until they face the father and the circumstances as to why they did such a thing are made evident, mitigating circumstances such as mental or chemical imbalances etc. would I think make a difference as to what the outcome might be.
But it’s the murderer who must work it out with the Father after he dies and God makes the decision as to whether or not he will be forgiven. Either way you slice it you have committed premeditated homicide Though It be to yourself, you have still knowingly taken the life of one of God’s children,
As to the differing degrees of murder as in Kill… Hebrew word #7523, you may want to take a look at the following:
Matthew 19:18].
Duet 19:1-21].
Num 35:11-19

I hope this helps.
Robert.

[m.o.m.]

AJ, Sin is sin is sin is sin is sin. It's no different in God's eyes whether we commite murder of ourselves or anyone else than it is if we tell a little "white lie". All sin is abhorrent to God and he cannot abide with it.

The good news is that Christ died once for all those sins -- all that had been, have since been and will be committed in the future. I don't believe the statement that we can't be forgiven if we havn't repented. When we accepted the gospel of Christ, it was all paid for and we are counted as righteous in Him.

So does God forgive a person for self murder? Certainly as His grace covers all sin. He will be the judge of who has accepted his grace or not. That none of us can know.

[m.o.m.]

AJ, Sin is sin is sin is sin is sin. It's no difference in God's eyes whether we commit murder of ourselves or anyone else than it is if we tell a little "white lie". All sin is abhorrent to God and he cannot abide with it.

The good news is that Christ died once for all those sins -- all that had been, have since been and will be committed in the future. I don't believe the statement that we can't be forgiven if we havn't repented. When we accepted the gospel of Christ, it was all paid for and we are counted as righteous in Him.

So does God forgive a person for self murder? Certainly as His grace covers all sin. He will be the judge of who has accepted his grace or not. That none of us can know.

[Robert]

m.o.m. Let me see if I have understood you correctly, are you saying that I can tell a fib to someone ( white lie ) and my neighbour as an example, can premeditatedly take a shotgun and blow some ones head off and God abhors us equally ?….
Grace applies to everyone yes, but only while you are on this earth in the flesh and with the condition you repent and seek the Lord for forgiveness and through His shed blood we are cleansed ……forgiven.
For you to say: Certainly as His grace covers all sin…. I would say…. When your dead you are beyond this earthly grace period, beyond repentance. You will be dealing with God directly face to face. What the outcome of that will be, God only knows
But what do you think God is going to say after you have just said indirectly by your actions. “Well, God I know I’m about to commit a terrible sin but I’m going to do it anyway” because I’m covered by grace….I think not….
That’s not how God’s grace works.
Robert.

[Daytimeson23]

Robert,

I would like to know which verse states that Gods grace is only sufficient for this physical life. Also Mom is correct, if you went through your whole life and commited just one sin of a white lie that one lie is enough to send you to hell for eternity, just as a person who went through there whole life and only committed murder once. The bible is clear that there is one hell and ANY sin will send you to that one hell regardless of "severity". The last statement you made about a hypothetical situation of a person saying " i am going to sin because the grace will cover it", this comes from a lack of knowledge of what salvation is. Once GOD has saved someone,,,not saying those who "accept Christ", you have been given a new spirit and new will that hates to sin, so there is no possibility of your situation happening among a TRUE child of God.

[Robert]

m.o.m. We accept and love Christ sight unseen, in our belief as Christians. In this belief we try to do the things that God would have us do, to the best of our ability. When we mess up as we always do, then we talk to the Father through Jesus and ask for his forgiveness. We repent, it’s required by God and only by recognizing our shortcomings and continually repenting are our sins forgiven, wiped clean. When we tell God we are sorry for what we’ve done, no matter how trivial it is ( Yes sin is sin ) those sins are erased from the book of life and only your good works remain. If you don’t repent of your sins, those sins remain in the book and are weighed against your good works on judgement day.
I know that you differ on this as you say :

The good news is that Christ died once for all those sins -- all that had been, have since been and will be committed in the future. I don't believe the statement that we can't be forgiven if we haven't repented. When we accepted the gospel of Christ, it was all paid for and we are counted as righteous in Him.

I just can’t come to terms with accepting the Lord one day and then going through the rest of my life committing sinful acts without asking for forgiveness each and every time I recognise my failure. Just saying I’m saved by the grace of God doesn’t cut it for me. Ultimately you’re the one that has to make the choice as to what you believe, the final decision is yours. My mind is made up.
Even with the unconditional love we have for our own children, when they do something wrong do we not expect them to apologise, to respect our authority and reciprocate the love we have shown them. I believe it is the same way with our Heavenly Father.
Just wanted to clarify my position to you that’s all.
Robert.

[Robert]

There is no evidence of grace being extended beyond the second advent, also referred to as the day of the Lord, we all will have shed our physical bodies for spiritual bodies having just been changed in the twinkling of an eye, Grace will no longer apply. It’s now to late to be asking God to forgive you for something. You had all the time in the world to ask Him while you were in the flesh, while forgiveness through grace was available, through faith, sight unseen…. But now your in the Lords day…. And His will be done.
Conversely if you were to commit suicide you would just have prematurely reached the same point in time. You would be in a spiritual body Grace would not apply. To late to ask for forgiveness and again whatever God decides your fate to be….That’s it.
Therefore grace is now, it’s been offered to all, beginning with the crucifixion of Jesus right up to the second advent. As for a specific verse, it’s the theme throughout the whole Book.
Sin is sin yes, but using the comparison of a premeditated murderer to someone that tells a little white lie is stretching it a bit. Is this where you have chosen to take a verse from the Bible quite literally and possibly out of context ? I vaguely remember seeing this somewhere, but at the moment I can’t recall just where. (and you don’t say ) But I’m pretty sure I didn’t understand it the way you are suggesting. The murderer is still hear on earth with the opportunity to ask for forgiveness through grace, the one who commits suicide is not. Even using your paraphrasing, I can see it as God’s way of telling us, in the extreme, the importance of repenting. Give me the verse I’ll give you a response.
Our Judicial system of today is loosely based on the Ten commandments, I don’t ever recall anyone ever being taken to court and condemned to death for telling a fib. Though the courts and God do require the murderers life.
Because of my lack of knowledge of what salvation is. Perhaps you could enlighten me. It appears that you are saying OSAS though you don’t come right out and say it,
Robert.

[m.o.m.]

Robert,

Thanks for your response. This wlll be short, because I'm going to take the time to find the scriptures I need for a longer response soon. I just wanted to claify that I am not saying that we accpet grace and then just keep on siinning. As Paul said, "May it never be." Repentance and asking forgiveness are an important act of worship. They is part of walking with God on a daily basis; but the saving, that's a done deal, in my book. If a teenager is a Christian saved by grace had a fight with his parents, called them terrible names and walked out the door, yelliing "I hate you". That teenager has clearly sinned because he has not honored his parents. That same teenager drives down the road and is in a car wreck and is killed. The teen never repented, before death, of the sin of not honoring his parents. Are you telling me that you don't believe that grace extends to this teen? I'm just curious.

I will get my scriptures together and come back.

Thanks!

[Daytimeson23]

I do notice there is a lot of explanation but no scripture, the statement that "repenting is required" is a false one. The reason being is GOD is the one who gives repentance, Acts 5:31, Acts 11:18, 2 Timothy 2:25. You see repentance is something that God gives it is not something we can conjure up from our pathetic existence. And as was mentioned on previous posts, if repentance is required from us then everyone will be in hell, because no one has repented of driving one mile an hour over the speed limit even though that is a sin. Robert the problem is you are stuck in a fantasy world where YOU are the saviour not Christ, and therein lies your entire problem, and also which makes every conclusion you make a false one.

[Robert]

m.o.m.
It seems I may have misunderstood your earlier post, sorry, but it did appear to me that you were saying : After accepting Christ there was no need to repent any more. I’m happy that was not the case, as you clarified in your last post and I thank you. I would like to reiterate my position also. I’m haven’t been saying or at least I didn’t think I was, that you have to keep repenting to be saved. You are saved once you have accepted Jesus as your saviour. I’m saying you have to keep repenting to keep in good standing with the Lord for all the day to day shortcomings we have. He expects it and rightly so. I’m sorry if I was confusing you also. Shall we agree that it was my mistake and your error ?
I only really have time to chat on the weekends so I will reply to the rest of your post then if that ok.
Robert.

[germanJoy]

Who said that "repenting is not required" except for Daytimeson23? The Holy Scriptures instruct all of us TO REPENT and be saved (Matt. 3:2, Mark 1:15, Mark 6:12, Acts 2:38, Acts 3;19, Acts 8:22, Acts 17:30, etc. etc. etc.) The Lord Jesus Christ Himself said: "Do you suppose that these Galileans were greater sinners than all other Galileans, because they suffered this fate? I tell you, no, but, unless you REPENT, you will all likewise perish."

Robert here has a point but none of us can judge any believers who died in any manner (including suicide) simply because we have no authority to judge except Christ. The biggest problem with killing oneself is taking authority of your own life which only God has. Another problem is as Christians we are supposed to be the light of the world and to love this life (life in Christ); it is likewise written that the fear of the Lord is to love life and desire the number of days. Therefore, anyone who kills himself hates life and fears not the Lord. Suicide is definitely a sin that brings no room for repentance. The next problem is without faith, it is impossible to please God. A person committing suicide resigns of believing in God to work in his own life and decides to end it. Therefore faith comes by hearing and hearing of the Word of God and the Word of God encourages us to have FAITH in Him and not the opposite.

As for Matt. 12:31, any sin can indeed be forgiven IF it is REPENTED! How can I be forgiven if I do not acknowledge my sin? Something to think about!

[Daytimeson23]

well guess it all leads back to the same discussion that man cannot save himself nor can he do anything to move towards God, if GOD already saves someone then he has nothing that can condemn him Romans 8:1, therefore any thing he has done or will do can not condemn him EVEN the sins he never repented of or even knew he did. It is clear that REPENTANCE comes FROM God not from us to God. So when we say "we must repent" you have it backwards,,GOD must give you repentance..Philippians 2:13, it is GOD who works in you both to WILL and to DO, we cannot take credit for "willing to repent" or "actually repenting" so if it is GOD who performs this there is no sin outside of what he already stated he will not forgive, that if we dont "repent" of still remains in our life.

[m.o.m.]

Hello germanJoy,

I'm not sure how Matt. 12:31 applies to what you are talking about as it is about the Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit. And as to how you can be forgiven without acknowledging your sin, you already have been.

"But God demonstrates His own love towards us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us." Rom.5:8 NASB. And in Rom 6:10 " For the death that He died, he died to sin, once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God."

He died for all of our sins -- past, present,and future while we were yet sinners, when there was no repentance in us. The debt is paid in full.

Daily prayers and repentance are for keeping the channel open between us and God, but the saving has been done and does not need our repeatd repentance to hold us.

m.o.m.

[germanJoy]

Hi m.o.m Lest I be misunderstood, let it be clarified here once and for all that no one can pay or cleanse his own sin (even by way of repentance) other than the BLOOD of JESUS CHRIST shed upon the cross. The message of salvation is this: "REPENT, for the kingdom of God is AT HAND." Apart from repentance, neither the kingdom of God can come into the life of any person nor the blood of Christ is or will be shed upon his or her sins. That is the whole context of the message of being born again. The person has to receive it (payment of Christ alone) and realize his sins and need of a Saviour and Lord (repentance).

If your statement is true that we do not need to repent because our sins (or all sins of saved or unsaved) have already been paid, then ALL (even unbelievers) are saved. But we know that this is not the case. Everybody (believers and unbelievers) is called TO REPENT and BE SAVED.

Acts 17:30 Therefore, having overlooked the times of ignorance, God is NOW declaring to MEN that ALL EVERYWHERE should REPENT.

Mark 1:15 and saying (Jesus' own words), "The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand; REPENT and BELIEVE in the gospel."

Acts 26:20 but kept declaring both to those of Damascus first, and also at Jerusalem and then throughout all the region of Judea (this was the message to the whole world) and even to the Gentiles, THAT THEY SHOULD REPENT (acknowledge sin) and TURN TO GOD (receive Jesus Christ), performing DEEDS appropriate to REPENTANCE.

No one can escape from the message of REPENTANCE. The message of SALVATION and REPENTANCE are inseparable. Why? because God means REAL business with us, He does not want the precious blood of Christ to be ridiculed, mocked and taken for granted. He wants men to show remorse about his salvation given freely to him by Christ.

Now, as for the verse "while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us" it was meant for the full assurance of our salvation (based not on our works but on the finished works of Christ; by faith and not by our works). And this faith or salvation is made full and manifested by our works "But someone may well say, 'You have faith, and I have works; show me your faith WITHOUT the works, and I will show you my FAITH by MY WORKS. (since demons also believe, faith is not enough); But are you willing to recognize FOOLISH FELLOW (these were christians), that FAITH without WORKS IS USELESS?

For just as the body without the spirit is dead, SO ALSO FAITH WITHOUT WORKS IS DEAD." James 2:18, 20, 26 Faith is perfected by works for a man is justified by works, and not by faith alone (verse 22 and 24).

I quoted Matt. 12:31 because it was the first verse for this topic used to mean that all sins are forgiven (including suicide). I did not quote it for the issue of blasphemy of the Holy Spirit.

I totally agree with you that our debts or sins (past, present and future) have been PAID IN FULL if WE CONFESS IT for we know He is faithful and just to cleanse us from ALL UNRIGHTEOUSNESS. 1 John 1:9 is clear enough to tell us "He cleanses our sins IF WE CONFESS IT."

God bless you.

[zarxs]

Daytimeson23, if even a single instance can be found to disprove your statement that "there is no possibility of your situation happening among a TRUE child of God." Then your premise will need to be reconsidered...

Example... A terrorist takes over a school house and tells the teacher commit suicide or they will kill the children. Now, it is under duress but you could refuse and let them kill you or refuse and let them kill the children, you have a choice. If you choose to kill yourself to save the children it is still by your own hand while having a choice and it is still suicide. If we say for the sake of argument that salvation doesn't cover future actions then does the teacher go to hell?

The "new spirit" concept is exactly right it is completely Biblical, the issue comes down to two questions...

1. In THIS instance is taking ones own life a violation of the "New Spirit"?
2. If it IS in line with the "New Spirit" then what is the true Violation, is it taking ones own life, OR is it taking ones own life because one fails to trust in God.

[zarxs]

Mans law and Gods law are not the same.

The Bible does say all sins are equal but the Bible does give some exceptions to that, homosexual acts being one of the exceptions that will cost a persons eternal salvation.

The Bible is True in it's entirety. That means that you have to look at all verses and where they seem to contridict themselves find what conditions would make all verses True. God can make exceptions to his own rules for us. All sins are treated equally but there are exceptions.

* Sins (lieing cheating stealing murder) Generally people who are OSAS believe these fall into OSAS.

* Sins that can Cost you your eternal life but you might get forgiven for repenting (ex. homosexual acts) (I used the word Might because I couldn't remember) God gives these as exceptions.

* Sins that will never be forgiven. (Teaching God doesn't exist, forsaking your salvation). (The unforgivable sin falls into this, scholars debate what that actually is)

[zarxs]

Building on Mom's comment...How about the example of the person who has impure dreams and then dies in thier sleep of a heart attack.

1. Impure thoughts are a sin.
2. Person died before having a chance to repent.
3. Yes a person CAN LEARN to control their dreams (although it's not healthy).

[Robert]

.o.m.
I haven’t done a very good job so far in trying to explain exactly what I’m trying to say. It is a fine line so bare with me if you will.
At this moment we are in a period of grace whereby we are saved and our sins are forgiven.
Sins we commit in the future say tomorrow or next week etc; requires repentance on our part in order to be in good standing with the Lord. This most Christians do on a daily basis. This does not mean by repenting we are asking to be “re saved”
Now, suppose you sinned and didn’t repent for that sin, would you still be in good standing with the Lord ?…….No !
Suppose you sinned but couldn’t repent because you had commit suicide, or were killed in an accident. Would you still be in good standing ?……. Again No !
In the first instance, you are alive and have the opportunity to repent, and accept this unmerited gift from God……Grace.
In the second example you can’t repent, your dead, and you have gone beyond the time frame in which grace is offered.……Now you are saved by your works alone.
God has a time for every purpose, and because His time and purpose doesn‘t always fit ours. We can’t go inventing reasons to make it so.
Margie, if you show me scripturally that grace extends beyond death or the second advent, I will gladly change my mind. I just haven’t read anywhere that mentions or even hints at it after the Lords day.
So we are forced to conclude it ended just prior to that day……If you die before the Lords day, then that will be the time grace ended for you.

Now we come to the severity of the sin, you said : Sin is sin is sin is sin is sin. It's no difference in God's eyes whether we commit murder of ourselves or anyone else than it is if we tell a little "white lie".
If that is a scriptural verse then who am I to contradict God. On the other hand and if it is scriptural, did God intend us to take it literally ?…. Anyway, so here your saying that a premeditated murderer is no worse than someone who tells a fib ( little white lie ) and yet you have a problem with your analogy of the teenager. Frankly so do I and that’s why I questioned your first post, the comparison is too extreme
In your last post you ask: “Are you telling me that you don't believe that grace extends to this teen?” You obviously think there should be an exception for the teen. I agree, it does seem there should be, but if it’s grace Margie, then why would grace not be extended also, to the little white lie, the murderer, the suicide etc ?…… It’s all sin !
Example of the teenager, or the fibber, do I think either one is going to hell for all
eternity ? Absolutely not…..Do I think he’s saved ?…. Yes I do,… but not by grace. This is where your works comes into play. The teenage is saved by his works. God knows what is truly in your heart, and God is a fair and just God. and he loves us His children
As for the murderer is he saved….I doubt it…Is he on his way to hell….very likely…
Suicide though still murder, be it to oneself, is somewhat different. That’s why I said in my first post. God only knows the answer. I just don’t know. Adding to which I do believe the possibility exists for mitigating circumstances as to what God’s decision would be. This is not scriptural just an opinion. Well Margie I hope I made it clearer this time though I’m not at all sure that I have, I did my best, as I said it’s a fine line…. Take care.
Robert.

[Robert]

Why you find it necessary to insult me I have no idea, which makes it difficult to know where to begin. In general I try to get along with people without the insults, but in your case I may make an exception. If this were not such a serious matter I would say it’s almost laughable. Have you discerned this exclusive knowledge of God‘s Word that you alone seem to possess, from a church or institution you attend, please give me the address I would like to add it too my “things to avoid list”…..
Probably many reading these posts are just beginning to come to know the Lord, we must be careful not to confuse them, or others for that matter. Don’t take a verse here and there because it happens to have the right words in it to support your point of view.
To understand any verse you must read and understand several verses before the subject verse and possibly several after, so as to understand the message being given.

Lets take a look at what you have been saying throughout this thread:

You start by telling AJ that Matt:12:31. is the verse he needs in order to understand that it’s ok to commit suicide…. WRONG!…. This verse is referring to the unforgivable sin of which there is no forgiveness. Because it happens to say, “all manner of sins” which suites your position, it doesn’t cover suicide, this is still just an example Jesus is using.
Jesus goes on to say, you can even deny Christ Himself. But upon repentance, that act of sin will be forgiven.

Acts 5:31 “Him hath God exalted with His right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.”
God has given Israel the OPPORTUNITY through Jesus, for forgiveness of sin through repentance……..Jesus paid the price we must do our part and repent.

Acts 11:18 "When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God saying, "Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life."
They knew that God had now offered these Gentiles eternal life, if they believed and if they repented of their sins in Jesus name. In other words God has granted them the OPPORTUNITY of repentance…… He is not going to doing it for them.

II Timothy 2:25 "In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;"

Paul is giving instructions on how to teach, this is not even about the salvation of your soul. To get a better understanding you should at least read from verse 23 -26. But we’ll just break down the verse you mention from……. if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;"
If God peradventure….. from 3361 and 4218 1) that ... not, lest, whether perhaps, whether or not, in no way, perhaps

Will give them repentance….. from 3340 1) a change of mind, as it appears to one who repents, of a purpose he has formed or of something he has done

To the acknowledging of the truth….. from 1921 1) precise and correct knowledge
a) used in the NT of the knowledge of things ethical and divine

It now reads :…. If God perhaps will give them a change of mind to the precise and correct knowledge of the truth.

German joy gave you some good examples, and there are a lot more you should read as well. repent occurs 46 times in 43 verses: repentance occurs 26 times in 26 verses:

So before you say things like,…. your lack of knowledge or ….YOU are the saviour not Christ, and ….every conclusion you make is a false one….. Make sure you know what you are talking about first.

None of us are perfect, but when we repent, God counts that as perfect. He counts you perfect because He has forgiven those sins and imperfections that flaw your soul. God loves His children and He knows that we are in the flesh, and He knows also the impulses that come upon us. The point here is that we rightly divide the Word, and through repentance we get rid of those impure things in our lives. By following righteousness, having and acting on our faith, and with love and peace in our hearts, we can call on the Lord out of a pure heart.
Robert.

[God'schild]

Well, according to the bible people can be forgiven for every sin. So, I guess a God can forgive a person for self-murder according to the bible. The verse is Matthew 12 vs 31

[Susanna]

But if you kill yourself, is there time to repent? The Bible also talks about knowing what is right, and deliberatly going against it.

Just a Thougth
GBU
Susanna

[Daytimeson23]

what is your point?

[Daytimeson23]

I love how you added the words to the verses to support your lies,,,seems like that goes against Revelation 22:18-19 and also the verse that mentions by your "traditions" make the commandments of God of no effect

[Daytimeson23]

LOL LOL LOL geesh

[chailene_1202lil]

doesnt it depend why they killed them slefs i mean what if they where abused and couldnt take it no more then would god forgive you.

[germanJoy]

doesnt it depend why they killed them slefs i mean what if they where abused and couldnt take it no more then would god forgive you.
Hi chailene, good question. I guess many if not most suiciders are victims of abuse leading to rejection, despair and depression. At times like this, the only one who could genuinely pull them out of this condition is no other than our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. Not only did He save and show us the way out of this state but most of all, He Himself lived the perfect example of LOVE and FORGIVENESS when He suffered the same abusive acts of men on His way to the Cross. Yet He did not retaliate instead He loved those who abused Him and opened the door of salvation for them. However, some may claim, "He is God. He can do it. I am just a human being, I can't." Well, my answer is this: "That is exactly the reason why you can do it because you are just a human being. For if God Himself showed forgiveness to the abusers, who are you being just a human being not to?"

The point is unless we see, understand, and ACCEPT the reason why Jesus died for all mankind, we will never be able to see, understand and ACCEPT His free gift of salvation for ALL SINNERS and will continue to struggle with our sins and the sins of others toward us which makes it difficult for us to be totally freed from sin and its power.

God bless you.

[North of the 49th]

Please give a scripture (s) to support your answer. Opinions are welcome also.
AJ...1 Cor.3:16-17!!!! God loves you. So much. You are His temple. I believe He wants you to take good care of that temple, to the best of your ability.
Now for the "sin is sin is sin" thing.I am speaking from personal experience here, so please bear with me.
Several years ago, when my middle son was in high shool, he came to me one morning and asked me to write an excuse note for school that was a total untruth. I resisted and then finally relented and as I relented, I said to him,"I'm going to burn in hell for this." For days after the anguish in my heart was almost unbearable. One afternoon I was sitting watching TV in this state when all of a sudden a voice said to me, so clearly and loudly it made me jump,"Satan's lies!" The devil was trying to convince me this thing I had uttered was, indeed, true, when it wasn't.
What I have learned since, God is not going to let you go into eternity without giving you a chance to repent. He knows your heart. He loves you. He knows your motives as to why you do certain things.
Where we can get ourselves into big trouble is when God puts his finger on something in our lives that He wants to help us deal with and we get into rebellion and disobedience to Him. Things don't go well! God disciplines and chastises those He loves. It's not fun. Trust me.

As long as we are honest and go to Him and say,"Abba, this and this and this.....we have nothing to fear. He is our Father.
Hope this helps.

[germanJoy]

The bible is clear. God forgives a person WHO REPENTS and surely not a person who does not repent. An unrepentant sin remains a sin. One question that should be cleared up here: Can I make a prayer like this?: "Lord, I know that killing myself is a sin. I will do it anyway because I am sick and tired of life. So I ask you now to forgive me and make this prayer alive after I commit this sin.????"

There can be an exception to the "suicidal" act which only God can judge and not men. A true-to-life example which I personally experienced is this: A brother joined a one-week general fasting and prayer instructed by the pastor of the church. On the last day, he lost his strength and died. We found out that he "willfully"wanted to join the Creator and refused to break the fast despite of his physical condition.

I guess this can also be considered as just giving up (suicide or not?) life with a desire to be with God.

However, there are types of suicide that are clearly done as having no more faith in Him. I believe that to be totally different which awaits judgment.

Any thoughts are welcomed. :-)

[North of the 49th]

I need to clarify something I said in the above. The voice I heard was Holy Spirit telling me satan was lying. After all, He is the Comforter and believe me, I needed comfort!

[My Mercy]

although we are told not to murder i pray that he would forgive anyone who commits suicide. to do that you must be in a desprate situation already i dont see why god would want to make it worse by rejecting us. most people who commit suicide are doing it because they can find no other way out not because we want to sin. i think in commiting suicide it is in a way a silent shout of sorry.

[Potters House]

Once Saved always Saved. Is this the real question here? If it is, what are the scriptures to back it up? And what is the definition of Saved? If a person is 'saved' can they lose that salvation?

[zarxs]

That taking ones own life isn't necessarily a violation of the new spirit. Suicide isn't necessarily against God's law based on the example above.

[zarxs]

Daytime, why are you ignoring GermanJoys verses? You asked for Biblical support and she gave it to you.

[zarxs]

Murder: The unlawful killing of one human by another, especially with premeditated malice. (from dictionary.com)

This makes the concept of Self Murder impossible. The proper term is Suicide which puts it outside the range of meaning for the second commandment: Thou Shalt not murder.

Suicide is mentioned in the old testament twice and in the new testament once.

In both examples in the old testament, (saul) after suicide the person was buried with the honored dead in the family plot in "holy" ground.

In the new testament Judas committed suicide and other than being mocked by the Pharasees.

The concept of suicide being against the Christian faith may originate from the Roman Catholics death grip over Europe. The only escape for many would have been suicide.

If anyone can find verses that CLEARLY state that suicide is against God's law, please post them. The truth of God's law always matters.

[germanJoy]

Murder: The unlawful killing of one human by another, especially with premeditated malice. (from dictionary.com)

This makes the concept of Self Murder impossible. The proper term is Suicide which puts it outside the range of meaning for the second commandment: Thou Shalt not murder.

Suicide is mentioned in the old testament twice and in the new testament once.

In both examples in the old testament, (saul) after suicide the person was buried with the honored dead in the family plot in "holy" ground.

In the new testament Judas committed suicide and other than being mocked by the Pharasees.

The concept of suicide being against the Christian faith may originate from the Roman Catholics death grip over Europe. The only escape for many would have been suicide.

If anyone can find verses that CLEARLY state that suicide is against God's law, please post them. The truth of God's law always matters.

The story of Saul's death should be read carefully. Saul tried to kill himself but his life ended when an Amalekite came and struck him down upon his request (Read the full story 1 Sam. 31:1-13 and 2 Sam. 1:1-15). God did not allow Saul to kill himself (although he wanted to).

Judas Iscariot's story is quite known to all. He was a betrayor, instead of repenting like what Peter did (Peter denied Jesus which is equal to betrayal), he killed himself.

Killing of oneself or of another person is TO KILL. One cannot claim that suicide is not killing. Suicide is an act of killing or ending one's life. Killing is a sin. There is no difference between suicide and murder, both are identified as sin.

The Holy Scripture is VERY CLEAR on this SIN.

John 10:10 "The thief comes only to steal, and KILL, and destroy; I came that they might HAVE LIFE, and might have it ABUNDANTLY."

Are we to be like JESUS or the THIEF?

God bless you.

[zarxs]

GermanJoy, I appreciated your post. Ummm, I don't know how to tell you this but you might want to reread the verses you post. He was assisted but Saul committed suicide by his own hand...

2Sa 1:5 Then David said to the young man who brought him the report, “How do you know that Saul and his son Jonathan are dead?”
2Sa 1:6 “I happened to be on Mount Gilboa,” the young man said, “and there was Saul, leaning on his spear, with the chariots and riders almost upon him.
2Sa 1:7 When he turned around and saw me, he called out to me, and I said, ‘What can I do?’
2Sa 1:8 “He asked me, ‘Who are you?’
“ ‘An Amalekite,’ I answered.
2Sa 1:9 “Then he said to me, ‘Stand over me and kill me! I am in the throes of death, but I’m still alive.’
2Sa 1:10 “So I stood over him and killed him, because I knew that after he had fallen he could not survive. And I took the crown that was on his head and the band on his arm and have brought them here to my lord.”

1Sa 31:4 Saul said to his armor-bearer, “Draw your sword and run me through, or these uncircumcised fellows will come and run me through and abuse me.”
But his armor-bearer was terrified and would not do it; so Saul took his own sword and fell on it.
1Sa 31:5 When the armor-bearer saw that Saul was dead, he too fell on his sword and died with him.
1Sa 31:6 So Saul and his three sons and his armor-bearer and all his men died together that same day.

1Ch 10:4 Saul said to his armor-bearer, “Draw your sword and run me through, or these uncircumcised fellows will come and abuse me.”
But his armor-bearer was terrified and would not do it; so Saul took his own sword and fell on it.
1Ch 10:5 When the armor-bearer saw that Saul was dead, he too fell on his sword and died.
1Ch 10:6 So Saul and his three sons died, and all his house died together.

From "New International Dictionary of the Christian Church":
"The traditional Christian view has no direct support from the Bible, in which various cases of suicide are mentioned but without reference to a penalty and without condemnation of it—perhaps because the biblical emphasis is on the joyous acceptance of life as a gift from God. It was formulated by Augustine* and other early Fathers of the Church. Augustine condemned suicide on the grounds that it was self-murder; that it precluded any opportunity for repentance; and that it was a cowardly act. These views found expression in church law, by which suicide was denounced by a series of councils and was elaborated by Aquinas* and other Scholastics during the Middle Ages. Aquinas condemned suicide as being contrary to the natural law, to man’s natural inclinations, and to a proper self-love. He held that man has no right to deprive society of his presence and activity or to reject the gift of life given him by God."

The modern Christian view of Suicide does not come from the Bible but from a founding philosopher of the Roman Catholic Church. All instances of suicide in the Bible are mentioned but without reference to a penalty and without condemnation.

The word used in Hebrew for the second commandment is translated as "to kill" or "to murder." Modern translations use "Murder" because it is more appropriate, it doesn't include the connotations of war, the death penalty or suicide since they fall outside the intended scope of the Second commandment.

Please carefully consider whether you are accepting a cultural doctrine or a Christian doctrine. Roman Catholic Teachings are not always Christian.

[blueheron32]

Potters house..
Saved means..to be born again...to be born from above..it is a unilateral action by God himself, raising one who is spiritually dead to a newness of life..making him a new creature...becoming saved has nothing to do with mans action...it has to do with Gods action...and when God saves it is forever..eternal...the salvation God performs..can never be lost...once saved always saved is a true doctrine...read John 6. for starters..there are many passages that show that when a person is saved he recieves eternal life...how does one lose something that is eternal.....He doesnt...

blueheron32

[germanJoy]

GermanJoy, I appreciated your post. Ummm, I don't know how to tell you this but you might want to reread the verses you post. He was assisted but Saul committed suicide by his own hand...

The modern Christian view of Suicide does not come from the Bible but from a founding philosopher of the Roman Catholic Church. All instances of suicide in the Bible are mentioned but without reference to a penalty and without condemnation.

The word used in Hebrew for the second commandment is translated as "to kill" or "to murder." Modern translations use "Murder" because it is more appropriate, it doesn't include the connotations of war, the death penalty or suicide since they fall outside the intended scope of the Second commandment.

Please carefully consider whether you are accepting a cultural doctrine or a Christian doctrine. Roman Catholic Teachings are not always Christian.

Shalom, Zarxs. I beg to disagree of your sentence: "He was assisted but Saul committed suicide by his own hand..." for the following reasons:

1 Sam. 31:4-5 Then Saul said to his armor bearer "Draw your sword and pierce me through with it, lest these uncircumcised come and pierce me trough and make sport of me." But his armor bearer would not, for he was greatly afraid. So Saul took his sword and fell on it (here he was supposed to be dead by his own sword or spear referred to 2Sam. 1:6). And when his armor bearer saw that Saul was dead (well, he thought so), he also fell on his sword and died with him.

All right, now let's go to the "full story" of Saul's death. 2Sam. 1:6-9 And the young man (Amalekite) who told him (David) said, "By chance I happened to be on Mount Gilboa, and behold, Saul was leaning on his spear. (he was still alive after his suicidal attempt)... verse 9 'Then he said to me, Please stand beside me and kill me, for agony has seized me because MY LIFE STILL LINGERS IN ME.

verse 10 - "So I stood beside him and KILLED HIM...."

It is very clear that Saul tried to commit suicide but was unsuccessful for that was and is always NOT GOD'S WILL for His annointed (all His chosen). And the Amalekite who assisted him (by mercy killing) was later on punished by King David for what he had done. Verses 14-16 Then David said to him, "How is it you were not afraid to stretch out your hand to destroy the Lord's annointed? And David called one of the young men and said, "Go, cut him down." So he struck him and he died. And David said to him, 'Your blood is on your head, for your mouth has testified against you, saying, 'I have killed the Lord's annointed.'"

There never was in the bible where any man of God died of suicide. The Lord clearly wants His people to die according to His sovereign will and not the will of man. As I have already said, there are instances wherein someone may give up fighting for life (approaching death caused by sicknesses, accidents, and the like) out of their desire to be with God. In this respect, only the Lord can judge the heart. But a person taking a knife and intentionally killing himself is a different story.

I agree that war and death penalty are excluded from modern word "murder". War is killing someone to defend your life, your family, and your countrymen; death penalty is killing someone by an earthly court to prevent more deaths. But suicide is focused on oneself and is selfish. Its fruits are grief, sorrow, hate, unbelief, dissatisfaction, depression, impatience, unforgiveness, turmoil, etc. etc. There is absolutely nothing good in it! I still have yet to see a person commiting suicide not suffering from some or all of these fruits.

"But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control, against such things there is no law." Galatians 5:22

"Suicide" is not well-mentioned in the bible simply because it is not what a true child of God can, will and love to do.

God bless you.

[zarxs]

Germanjoy, just so you know I don't care about anything other than the truth if you can find something in the Bible that is solid I will be happy to learn something new. I'm just surprised that after growing up being told suicide is bad that there is nothing about it in the Bible to match popular oppinion.

To address your arguments:

1. The Amalekite who aided him also noted that Saul was absolutely going to die, Saul had committed suicide by his own hand he just hadn't succumbed to the injury yet. The Amalekite just hastened the process. He did not kill him since Saul had already killed himself.

2. David was upset with the Amalekite for killing Saul (which was not what happened but it was David's perspective). However he was upset for the STATED reason, that this man had killed Saul, God's annointed. That in no way applies to the suicide argument.

You arguments so far are based on extremely loose interpretations of the Bible that don't hold up under unbiased scrutiny. I am interested in anything you have to say to support your argument.

There are three instances of Suicide in the Bible, Saul, Judas, Ahithophel. Here is the third instance of it, let me know if you can find anything related to this?

2Sa 17:23 When Ahithophel saw that his advice had not been followed, he saddled his donkey and set out for his house in his hometown. He put his house in order and then hanged himself. So he died and was buried in his father’s tomb.

From my reading there are only these three cases, and out of these three cases, there was no condemnation of suicide by anyone to include the Pharasees in Judas case.

[kittyhawk]

I believe that suicide is wrong because it is up to God to give and to take life, not us. It is murdering yourself, which is a sin. I also believe a person will go to hell if he commits suicide. I'd elaborate more on the topic and go into greater detail, but the main jist of it is this: DON'T DO IT.

[germanJoy]

Zarxs, the bible is not totally silent about suicide. You have rightly mentioned 3 men (Saul, Judas, and Ahitophel) who committed the act and their stories are exactly what we want to study here to establish the fact whether suicide is wrong or not. "Suicide being bad" even though popular does not automatically make it unbiblical. There are many populars that are very biblical.

Your own words "1. The Amalekite who aided him also noted that Saul was absolutely going to die, Saul had committed suicide by his own hand he just hadn't succumbed to the injury yet. The Amalekite just hastened the process. He did not kill him since Saul had already killed himself." is not what the scriptures says: a. So I (Amalekite) stood beside him (Saul) and KILLED HIM (1 Sam. 1:10).
b. Then David said to him (Amalekite), "How is it you were not afraid to stretch out your hand to destroy the Lord's annointed?" (2 Sam. 1:14)

If the Amalekite and David themselves declared that Saul was killed by the Amalekite, why will you twist the truth of the matter?

Again, your own statement is presumptuous: "2. David was upset with the Amalekite for killing Saul (which was not what happened but it was David's perspective). However he was upset for the STATED reason, that this man had killed Saul, God's annointed. That in no way applies to the suicide argument." It was not David's own perspective but it was the fact. David was seeing the fact. No one is supposed to kill the annointed which the Amalekite did. Saul asked his armor bearer but he refused because he himself was afraid to kill the annointed (1Sam. 31:4-5).

Ahitophel wanted to counsel Absalom for the destruction of David. His counsel was good (effective if followed) but thwarted by God because David is His annointed. Ahitophel was the old testament figure of Judas Isacariot.
"...For the Lord had ordained to thwart the good counsel of Ahitophel, in order that the Lord might bring calamity on Absalom." (2Sam. 17:14)

Now listen, the most misleading statement you made follows: "From my reading there are only these three cases, and out of these three cases, there was no condemnation of suicide by anyone to include the Pharisees in Judas case.
It is misleading because it was against the words of Christ. Judas Iscariot was destined for destruction. Jesus Himself confirmed this in John 17:12 "While I was with them, I was keeping them in Thy name which Thou hast given Me; and I guarded them, and not one of them perished BUT THE SON OF PERDITION, that the Scripture might be fulfilled." Keep in mind Jesus was praying for His disciples and He mentioned here one disciple who was destined to perish (Judas Iscariot) as the son of perdition.

You see, suicide is also in the bible and the SUCCESSFUL doers (Judas and Ahithophel, the rebels) were doing things against God's will. The UNSUCCESSFUL one (Saul, the anointed) died in the hands of the Amalekite and not in his own hands.

More God's blessings be upon you!

[Tennessee Elijah]

Basic logic tells us that "self murder" -- suicide -- cannot be forgiven by God. Anyone who kills another person or ends their own life has broken one of the ten commandments -- "Thou shalt not kill." Exodus 20:13 A dead person cannot repent of sin. So, to repent of sin and then sin again by separating a soul from the body, there will be no further opportunity to be redeemed. "Then Judas, which had betrayed him, when he saw that he was condemned, repented himself, and brought again the thirty pieces of silver to the chief priests and elders, Saying, I have sinned in that I have betrayed the innocent blood. And they said, What is that to us? see thou to that. And he cast down the pieces of silver in the temple, and departed, and went and hanged himself." Matthew 27:3-5 Is Judas in Heaven? While considering this question, we need to make distinctions between "spiritual" and "fleshly" ideas which pertain to life and death issues within biblical perspectives.

[North of the 49th]

Basic logic tells us that "self murder" -- suicide -- cannot be forgiven by God. Anyone who kills another person or ends their own life has broken one of the ten commandments -- "Thou shalt not kill." Exodus 20:13 A dead person cannot repent of sin. So, to repent of sin and then sin again by separating a soul from the body, there will be no further opportunity to be redeemed. "Then Judas, which had betrayed him, when he saw that he was condemned, repented himself, and brought again the thirty pieces of silver to the chief priests and elders, Saying, I have sinned in that I have betrayed the innocent blood. And they said, What is that to us? see thou to that. And he cast down the pieces of silver in the temple, and departed, and went and hanged himself." Matthew 27:3-5 Is Judas in Heaven? While considering this question, we need to make distinctions between "spiritual" and "fleshly" ideas which pertain to life and death issues within biblical perspectives.
There is only one "unforgivable " sin mentioned in the Bible- that of blaspheming Holy Spirit. Also, David had Bathsheba's husband killed so he could have her. David kept quiet about it until he couldn't stand the leanness God brought to his soul. He repented and was forgiven. It doesn't make any difference who did the actual killing in this case. Bottom line is-David wanted Uriah dead.

[Just_A_Hiro]

Yes I believe he does cause in gods eyes all sins are equal and the whole self suicide.(totally cathelic belief)

[Avecrien]

It is safe to say that chances are you, I, and any reading this will die without a chance to repent for something. I have no doubt in my allegiance or my destination. I know no scripture that prompts me to paranoia about whether or not I get a chance to repent of some recent mistake before a sudden death.

The only verse that comes to mind that speaks to me about this issue is in revelation where Jesus says those that persevere to the end receive their crown of glory. The bible doesnt talk much about people who started out on the right track, fell, and never came back in the sense of those headed for the future kingdom. I say fell and never came back because when you kill yourself you arent just committing murder, you are doing something far worse. You are saying you want no part in the plan God has for your life.
As a christian I want to die, make no mistake. This world has nothing for me(though I am taught to find the good in all things, and I strive to find the happiness God has given for me in this life). But while I am here I am commanded to do the work of my adoni and Adonai, my lord and my God. For me to end my own life would be to spit in their faces.
In doing so, I would not expect much in return.

I will not say that those who kill themselves have no chance at the immortality that is for those accepted into the presence of the God and his christ, I only say that it is no indicator of a godly walk.

[m.o.m.]

Well said, Avecrien. Thanks!

[Avecrien]

Glad to be of help :)

On a more comforting side, I will assert as truth that the modern idea of eternal torture is not biblical. Let us not forget all the the bible teaches about Sheol and the grave. In the new testament Jesus said that in following God alone was immortality. After his death and raising, we are taught that "God gave immortality to Jesus, and through him gives it to us. Whoever possesses the son posseses that life, and whoever lacks this intimacy with Jesus lacks this life" 1st john 5.
It is for the church that the christ established to prevail against the gates of the grave instead of the other way around. This he told Peter.

Although is is small consolation compared to the joy of being able to live side by side with our Priest-king and our God for ever(and ever and), I find it much easier to talk to others about suicide victims they may have as loved ones once the idea of incessant fiery torture is put out of the way.
Once again I'm not saying here that those who commit suicide are granted no place in the coming kingdom, that is not up to me. I only urge us all to commit to God's will in our life to its completion.

[germanJoy]

Basic logic tells us that "self murder" -- suicide -- cannot be forgiven by God. Anyone who kills another person or ends their own life has broken one of the ten commandments -- "Thou shalt not kill." Exodus 20:13 A dead person cannot repent of sin. So, to repent of sin and then sin again by separating a soul from the body, there will be no further opportunity to be redeemed. "Then Judas, which had betrayed him, when he saw that he was condemned, repented himself, and brought again the thirty pieces of silver to the chief priests and elders, Saying, I have sinned in that I have betrayed the innocent blood. And they said, What is that to us? see thou to that. And he cast down the pieces of silver in the temple, and departed, and went and hanged himself." Matthew 27:3-5 Is Judas in Heaven? While considering this question, we need to make distinctions between "spiritual" and "fleshly" ideas which pertain to life and death issues within biblical perspectives.

You have rightly said that Judas repented of betraying Jesus. But the issue to be faced is the act of suicide. Could Judas repent of his hanging himself? Obviously, that was an unrepented sin on his part. As I have already mentioned, Judas was named by Jesus as the Son of perdition, "destined to perish". John 16:12 The Word of Christ indicated that Judas does not have a part in the kingdom of God.

God bless you.

[Avecrien]

Judas was a thief who took advantage of Jesus. That he regretted his most evil act is not a surprise, but that he would suddenly have real saving faith in God and his messiah immediately before committing suicide is suspect to me. His repenting of his latest scheme alone is not sufficient to suppose that he would have access to immortality if not for his suicide. The promise of future life is for those who follow Jesus and worship God.

[zarxs]

Kittyhawk, this is not about personal desires or opinion it's about what the Bible does and does not say. Your opinion does matter but it's taken more seriously when it's backed by Bible verses or at least logic.

Murder is defined as killing someone else outside of war or punishment inflicted by government. Suicide is not covered by murder please don't alter the meaning of words to fit your opinion.

[zarxs]

1 Saul: committed the act of suicide, he committed an act against his body that would kill him given a little more time. The Amalekite hastened it. Yes, from a third persons perspective the Amalekite helped kill Saul. David of course looked at this as the Amalekite killing or helping to kill Saul. So David's action is not surprising. That doesn't change the fact that Saul, committed suicide and he would have died all the same even with the Amalekites help. The only saving grace for your argument is that Saul could have asked for forgiveness for his action since he lived long enough after he committed the act. Still, there is no comment in the Bible condemming Sauls action.

(By the way I liked your argument about the Amalekite, I just think that both Sauls suicide and the Amalekite helping kill him took place, one does not preclude the other.)

2. Ahitophel: took his own life without a comment or note condeming it in the Bible.

3. Judas Isacariot: Took his own life and the verse that you used to show that Judas may not have gone to heaven can just as easily be interpretted to read he had forsaken Jesus and that was the reason he didn't go to heaven. No comment was made specifically about his committing suicide.

So there are no verses against suicide unless you forcibly try to read it into the Bible. I find it amazing that the Roman Catholic Church still influences the Protestant church to this degree in this day and age.

[zarxs]

The proper translation is thou Shalt not murder. "Kill" was what it used to be translated to until we became better at translating Hebrew. "Kill" is not correct because the Bible allows killing during time of war and for capital punishment. Since it also says nothing about suicide in repeated instances in the Bible, your argument Hinges on the 2nd commandment and Murder it the more appropriate translation, then Suicide is not condemned in the Bible.

A person can kill themselves but a person cannot murder themselves in proper English. So you can't use the 2nd commandment to further your argument.

[Deanna]

Does that mean we go to heaven even if we commite suicide?

[germanJoy]

Does that mean we go to heaven even if we commite suicide?
Hi Deanna, As to who will go to heaven and who will not DEPENDS SOLELY on the JUDGEMENT of our Lord Jesus Christ. No one EXCEPT CHRIST should personally judge any person to be in heaven or in hell. That (judgement) should be left alone into the hands of God. I believe that we as human beings are too imperfect to make that decision. :)

However, there is only ONE CERTAIN thing about SALVATION of men which we can automatically through His Word make a judging statement i.e., those who have the Son of God receives life and those who have not the Son of God receives condemnation. As for the FINAL JUDGEMENT (who really will make it), Jesus Christ is the only ONE WHO HAS A SAY on that.

Now, regarding the issue of "suicide" we are trying to establish an argument on why it can be wrong and should be strongly discouraged for the sake of God's principles and His Word. It can be very tedious but by the help of the Holy Spirit, I am positive this issue will be clarified here. :-)

[germanJoy]

Amen to your contributions on this thread Avecrien, they contain the words of truth. :-)

Two good reasons I can add up as to why SUICIDE IS WRONG/BAD/SIN:

1. Those who commit it have in their hearts no more FEAR OF GOD who is the sole Giver and Taker of Life.
Psalms 34:11 Come, you children, listen to me: I will teach you the fear of the Lord. Who is the man who desires life, and loves length of days that he may see good?

In this passage, it is crystal-clear that a suicider defined as one who desires no life and length of days FEARS NOT THE LORD.
Now, hear what Jesus said in Luke 12:5: "But I will WARN you WHOM TO FEAR: FEAR THE ONE who after He has killed has authority to cast into hell; yes, I tell you, FEAR HIM.
Additionally, those who FEAR GOD will make it: And the nations were enraged, and Thy wrath came, and the time came for the dead to be judged, and the time to give their reward to Thy bond-servants the prophets and to the saints AND TO THOSE WHO FEAR THY NAME, the small and great, and to destroy those who destroy the earth."

2. The second good reason is because ONLY THOSE WHO ENDURE LIFE'S HARDSHIPS, PERSECUTIONS, TRIBULATIONS and the like will BE SAVED (the suiciders are the opposite of ENDURANCE).

"Then they will deliver you to tribulation, and will kill you, and you will be hated by all nations on account of My name. And at that time many will fall away and will deliver up one another and hate one another. And many false prophets will arise, and will mislead many. And because lawlessness is increased, most people's love will grow cold. BUT THE ONE WHO ENDURES TO THE END, HE SHALL BE SAVED. Matthew 24:9-13
These were Jesus' words and WILL BE THE JUDGE of all things.

Imagine a person in the midsts of tribulation and hardships because of his faith in Christ, DOES NOT ENDURE and COMMITS SUICIDE, will he be saved according to the Words of Christ stated above? NOT AT ALL!

[blueheron32]

I think I will agree with germanjoy today..:-)..

Job 1:21 And said, Naked came I out of my mother's womb, and naked shall I return thither: the LORD gave, and the LORD hath taken away; blessed be the name of the LORD.

In all things God is the one who gives and the one who takes away..that includes the life he has given us..He is the one that gave it to us.and it is he that has the right to take it away again.. Suicide is an act of rebellion against that sovreignty.

Rom 14:7 For none of us liveth to himself, and no man dieth to himself.
Rom 14:8 For whether we live, we live unto the Lord; and whether we die, we die unto the Lord: whether we live therefore, or die, we are the Lord's.
Rom 14:9 For to this end Christ both died, and rose, and revived, that he might be Lord both of the dead and living.

In every aspect of our existence, we belong to the Lord..he is our creator and sustainer. Whether we are in the bloom of health....we are his...if we lay dying on our bed...we are his, and he does with us as HE pleases. it is not in our right...to take into our own hands a privelege that belongs to God alone.

Act 17:26 And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation;

It is God who determines the times and the bounds of our habitation. It is God who knows the end from the beginning, It is he who determines the length of our days. Who is man to attempt to over rule God and take his fate into his own hands.

1Co 6:19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?

We are not our own...we have been bought with a price. If we belong to another, suicide is the destruction of another mans property, and contempt for the one whose property we are. surely that is sin.

Eph 5:29 For no man ever yet hated his own flesh; but nourisheth and cherisheth it, even as the Lord the church:

How could a man destroy his own body without first utterly rebelling against the very charactaristics of the one in whos image he has been created.

Act 16:27 And the keeper of the prison awaking out of his sleep, and seeing the prison doors open, he drew out his sword, and would have killed himself, supposing that the prisoners had been fled.
Act 16:28 But Paul cried with a loud voice, saying, Do thyself no harm: for we are all here.

Here we see Paul acting quickly to stop the jailkeeper from commiting suicide. Was it not because it was a sinful act to be avoided?

It is difficult for me to imagine a person who is truly saved, commiting suicide. on the other hand, I think it is quite possible for a person who is "supposed" to be saved commiting suicide, but such an act would give indication that he was almost certainly not saved in the first place. ..There is one condition in which i believe it would be possible that a truly saved person could commit suicide, and that is in the case of extreme mental illness. I believe it would be possible for such a person to cause harm to himself, resulting in death. In such a situation, his salvation would not be in question.

blueheron32

[zarxs]

GermanJoy, not a single verse you used has anything to do with "suicide", the word suicide or even "kill thy self" is no where to be found in your verses. God could easily used words to that effect if he wanted to. The Bible is the true and inspired word of God. If it's not there, then it's not there.

[God Is Holy]

King Saul committed suicide when he fell on his sword. Judas Iscariot committed suicide when he hung himself. Sure they were forgiven. All of us are. They just didn't know that they were forgiven, so they went to hell without hope. The forgiveness which has been offered must be appropriated. The gospel imparts hope, but this is what they lacked.

[germanJoy]

GermanJoy, not a single verse you used has anything to do with "suicide", the word suicide or even "kill thy self" is no where to be found in your verses. God could easily used words to that effect if he wanted to. The Bible is the true and inspired word of God. If it's not there, then it's not there.
zarxs, if you are right that ALL WORDS have to be in the bible to be TRUE, then there are many KINDS OF SINS or WRONG HABITS today that will be ignored. The words SUICIDE, AIDS, DRUGS, CIGARETTES, EUTHANASIA, EVOLUTION, etc. etc. (I can still name a lot) are not all in the bible. Are we then to presume they are all right because the Bible does not mention them? :-D

[kittyhawk]

Hmmm, I thought I had replied to this...well, I've gone into the whole bit about whether suicide is wrong or not argument before, so I'm not gonna get into it on a deep level, just gonna state that I believe that if you commit suicie, you're goin' to hell. Plain and simple. God's the only One Who's supposed to give life and take life, and if murdering someone is wrong, is sinful, then murdering yourself is wrong and sinful. Is it a forgivable sin? "Technically," it is. But if you purposefully plan out to take an overdose and w/your last breath say "God, forgive me" in order to assure God won't be mad at you, that is NOT genuine repentance and you wouldn't be forgiven. I mean, you're not sorry, you purposefully planned the whole thing out, even the pitily prayer part! So pretty much for someone to be forgiven of suicide, the only case in which that would happen is if the person suddenly realized (but it's too late, they already did themselves in) they did wrong and repented as they died, or if they had in their past attempted it and now ask God to forgive them for their past attempt 'cause they now realize it was wrong. But don't forget this: you can't be forgiven of anything unless you have Jesus in your heart w/His blood to wash away the sin. And also, I don't see why on earth a Christian would kill himself when He has the Lord to turn to! Remember: TRUE repentance is being genuinely sorry and being determined to TURN AWAY from that sin and not do it again. Just 'cause a person's a Christian doesn't mean he can do whatever he pleases and oh, God will forgive him. You gotta really be repentant to be forgiven. Also, there is NO need to commit suicide 'cause God is here!
So again, I believe that if a person commits suicide, he's going to hell. It's not worth it. Turn to God instead.

[OneVoice]

Note also that Jesus says in Matthew 6 that Murder begins in the heart.
By the rule you have observed about murder we MUST lay along side in EQUAL IMPORTANCE all other sin as judged by the rTen Commandments.
A little whoite lie stands as condemnable as a brutal violation and murder, and that as bad as coveting what God has not provided.
God see ALL sin the same.
Romans 3:23 says all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.
and
Romans 6:23 says the wages of sin are death.
No exceptions are provided or noted.
So where does that leave the suicide.
well... it is murder.
The question is not whether God will condemn him for suicide, but rather was he covered bybthe blood of Chrisy before.
being saved does not exempt anyone from the kind or pressurs that can steal joy and life in this way.

And a newly saved, or even some one saved for years, person who has not developed he loving and trusting relationship with God may fall victem to these things.
There aare emotional imbalances, and devistating tragedies.
And all of thesee things ARE in DEED answered in the person of Christ, BUT only if the person knows it and knows he or she is allowed and expected o avail themselves of HIS amazing strength and unfailing Love.
Matthew 11:27-29 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=11&verse=27&end_verse=29&version=31&context=context)

27"All things have been committed to me by my Father. No one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and those to whom the Son chooses to reveal him. 28"Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest. 29Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls

There was a time in my life long after I had accepted my Lord that I heard this verse for the first time.

I can look back and see that he was always there just like that.
But I had not looked, I had not known, and what I had learned at an early age in a little church was that it all depended on me.
It does not.
It all rests with Him, If I will just hand it over.

Saved people can succumb to feelings of holessness and the lies that satan tells them inorder to steal their jpy and hope in Christ.
But that does not mean that they are snatched out of His hands. Nothing can do that.
(see John 10)

last thing...
is "OSAS"
Once Saved ALWAYS Saved?
Is that NOT what it means when Jesus says "No one can snatch them out of My hands" (Jophn 10) and whee it is writen in Romans 8 "WHAT can seperate us from the love of GOD?"

If you are rteuly saved, you can not make God ungive His goft of grace.
And you can;t make Him Crucify Himself again in order o regive the gift if it could be lost... which it can not.
God keeps His promise and He pormises in John 3:16 that all who believe will have ETERNAL life.

OneVoice

[dancer4god]

m.o.m is definately correct Robert. Sin is sin. Whether you just say something wrong or you kill someone. It is all sin in God's eyes. It is an equal evil sin. You are right m.o.m

[Penny F]

I have no scripture in mind but it in this way you cannot offer yourself to God and hope that He accepts you into heaven. It is His will that no man shall perish. We live under the New covenant and the Lord no longer accepts blood sacrifices. However, in the glorious and gracious love of God, We are not necessarily supposed to have the answer to this. There are mysteries of God that we are not meant to find out this side of heaven. Our lives are so short and the only true way to reduce our suffering in this life is to keep our eyes on the Lord. But I'm guessing you already know that. I pray that you or anyone you love is not considering this as an option. This is only my opinion and I would love also to have some biblical evidence on this question.

[Penny F]

Wow, have read some of the replies to this question and already I feel impacted by the knowledge of you chatters out there. I look forward to spending more time on this site.

[jfreakgirl]

1 John 1:7 'And the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.'

I take this as meaning all sin: lying, murdering, past, future....

[Word]

Does God forgives a person for self murder?

Yes! If he should. :)

[thebestisyettobe]

I would just like to say, I don't have any support for my view other than this.
"John 10:28 I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand.
John 10:29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand.
John 10:30 I and the Father are one."
People ask, well, if you are truly a christian, would you commit suicide? If anyone of you who is reading this has ever attempted suicide, you know the answer. I personally believe you can... We, as christians, have faults, we struggle, we fall into temptation and sin, giving satan a foothold in our lives... When the enemy has a foothold in our lives, things can become chaotic and quite downing really quickly! For us to say that just because we are a christian, we will never feel like that, I think is wrong. The enemy attacks us at our weakest point, and for some of us, that weakest point may be self harm, and suicidal thoughts. To say that because someone kills themself, they are not a christian, is very hurtful. What hope does that give to someone who has become a christian, is not yet very strong in their walk with the Lord and has a day where they feel like killing themselves? Does that mean that they aren't truly a christian? And if they are truly a christian and they do commit suicide, would they not go to heaven?
Those are my views, and anyone who knows me knows that I have a history with (multiple) attempts at suicide and also alot of SI over the years. So, I'm very stubborn in my opinion of this topic. :-)
God bless

[god'schild219]

In reply to M.O.M. I believe this is not true, even tough the lords' blood covers our sins it only covers it when we repent and ask the lord for forgiveness, and if someone commits suicide; then how can they ask for forgiveness and repent in this nature. The only way to salvation is through jesus christ and repentance. Example: I am a christian born again and I never repent because I feel as though my sins are already covered by God, am i still a christian or am I just saying it. Becoming a christian comes with work, and that work is repenting to all of your sins and trying not to do them again. How can God forgive someone when they are dead and did not repent for he said, I am the God of living.

[larry]

SUICIDE

First of all, I believe not accepting Christ as your savior is the only sin not forgiven. Israel saw the miracles, heard the living water (the word of God) preached to them and said that what was preached, and they said saw was of Beelzebub, they didn't drink, and that was blasphemy. Needless to say they didn't accept Jesus as their Messiah and will have eternity to regret it.

Below we see the history of King Saul taking his own life, and these things were given us as examples to show us what God does in our lives also.

1 Samuel chapter 28. Saul is at war with the Philistines and God will not answer his prayer. He seeks a witch at En-dor in verse 7 & 11 to bring up the now deceased Samuel from the dead to answer his questions since God will not. In verse 19 Samuel tells Saul that tomorrow he and his sons will be with him. (In Abraham's bosom.)

Samuel was deceased and was in Abraham's bosom described in Luke chapter 16 where he states Saul will join him. In Hebrews 11:32 we see Samuel described as one of the righteous of old, and so we must realize that Saul was also there also. Abraham's bosom was the resting place of the righteous dead or also known as paradise in the center of the earth until Jesus died and took paradise to heaven. Now if we die as believers our spirit goes immediately to heaven to be with the Lord. The spirits of the unrighteous dead went to lower hell and still do until the day of judgment.

Saul fell on his own sword to kill himself in 1 Chronicles 10:4. Then said Saul to his armourbearer, Draw thy sword, and thrust me through therewith; lest these uncircumcised come and abuse me. But his armourbearer would not; for he was sore afraid. So Saul took a sword, and fell upon it. 5 And when his armourbearer saw that Saul was dead, he fell likewise on the sword, and died. 6 So Saul died, and his three sons, and all his house died together.

Our salvation does not depend on what we do, but What God did and our accepting of the sacrifice He made for us. I've read many responses stating how certain things send us to hell while others do not. One states that not repenting before we die condemns us, some say we can jump out of God's hand; this last one I can only say WOW to. If you haven't guessed I'm OSAS. My faith is not based on "DO", but "DONE". Repentance after we're saved brings us back into fellowship with God and cleanses our conscience to continue our walk with Him. There are different rewards for us depending on what we allow God to accomplish in our lives, and greater punishment was promised those who committed certain sins, and homosexuality was not the worse though it was an abomination to God.

When Jesus sent the twelve out doing miracles and preaching, He said in Mark 6:11 And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear you, when ye depart thence, shake off the dust under your feet for a testimony against them. Verily I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for Sodom in the day of judgment, than for that city.

Dear saints of God, believe what you will, but I have no doubt where Saul is because of what God had Samuel tell him. You can choose to believe what God says, or listen to man's reasoning. God bless you all in Jesus' name - larry

[Kimberly]

Larry,
I really like your responses to a lot of the posts I've read, and this one is no exception. Amen and amen!

~Kim