So......what about the election?

[pop james]

The election of GODs saints I refer to of course......The word election comes from the latin electus, from eligo which means to choose out...It signifies to pick out, choose, to gather out. Unconditonal means to Not be limited to any conditions, or preresquisites whatsoever. So this would literally mean that GOD, in eternity, chose or picked out of mankind whom HE would save for no other reason than HIS own wise, just and gracious purpose.
Election does not mean that man elects GOD or elects to be saved....But GOD alone does the electing....."according as HE (GOD) hath chosen us in HIM (CHRIST) before the foundation of the world...eph 1:4
Election also does NOT mean that GOD elects the sinner in time or at the time when the sinner recieves Christ as his Saviour....GOD chose a number in Christ "before the foundation of the world"....which would mean that the elect were chosen before they ever existed.....
Election does NOT mean hat GOD elected all men without exception to salvation....If this was so... many whom GOD elected are not saved, despite the election. God, then, is a failure and defeated and frustrated. Of course, this is ridiculous to think of. Actually it is blasphemey.For "GOD does as HE pleases"...psl 15:3.
GOD calls whom HE purposed to save....and whom HE purposed to save, and whom HE calls, HE forknew....and whom HE forknew, HE predestinated....Whom HE predestinated, HE calls...Whom HE calls, HE justifies...Whom HE justifies, HE glorifies...rom 8:20-39....
Yes believer.....If your salvation is sure..."GOD hath from the beginning chosen YOU to salvation... 2 thes 2:13........Now aint that grand!!!.......regards ....Pop

[Brucea]

Your salvation is sure if you endure to the end.
2Corinthians 11:11:1 Oh, that you would bear with me in a little folly; and indeed you do bear with me. 2 For I am jealous for you with godly jealousy. For I have betrothed you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ. 3 But I fear, lest somehow, as the serpent deceived Eve by his craftiness, so your minds may be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ. 4 For if he who comes preaches another Jesus whom we have not preached, or if you receive a different spirit which you have not received, or a different gospel which you have not accepted; you may well put up with it!

Matthew 24:13 "But he who endures to the end shall be saved.

Mark 13:13 "And you will be hated by all for My name's sake. But he who endures to the end shall be saved.

Colossians 1:19 For it pleased the Father that in Him all the fullness should dwell, 20 and by Him to reconcile all things to Himself, by Him, whether things on earth or things in heaven, having made peace through the blood of His cross. 21 And you, who once were alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now He has reconciled 22 in the body of His flesh through death, to present you holy, and blameless, and above reproach in His sight; 23 if indeed you continue in the faith, grounded and steadfast, and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel which you heard, which was preached to every creature under heaven, of which I, Paul, became a minister.
Yes, here is the IF!

Hebrews 3:5 And Moses indeed was faithful in all His house as a servant, for a testimony of those things which would be spoken afterward,
6 but Christ as a Son over His own house, whose house we are if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm to the end.
We must hold on to the confession of our faith to the end!

Hebrews 2:2:1 Therefore we must give the more earnest heed to the things we have heard, lest we drift away.
2 For if the word spoken through angels proved steadfast, and every transgression and disobedience received a just reward,
3 how shall we escape if we neglect so great a salvation, which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed to us by those who heard Him,

If we neglect our salvation we may become a Hebrews 6:4-6 If we fall we can not come back even through repentance.
Or we might become like those in 2 Peter who escaped the pollutions of the world and became entangled and were overcome the evil. It would have been better for them to have never been saved than to escape and then go back. No hope for them!
2 Peter 2:20 For if, after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the latter end is worse for them than the beginning.

Or we could become like those who depart form the faith.
1 Timothy 4:4:1 Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons, 2 speaking lies in hypocrisy, having their own conscience seared with a hot iron,

2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.

1 Timothy 2:2:1 Therefore I exhort first of all that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks be made for all men, 2 for kings and all who are in authority, that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and reverence. 3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, 4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

John 3:1616 "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.


I do not argue over our election, it is the conclusions you try to draw from that truth that causes you to be in error. I have listed many verses you will say they don't mean what they say, or you go and pull out a part of the definition from the Greek and leave out the portion of the definition you do not like. This gives you the power to rewrite the verse to your liking.

2 Peter 2:10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:
Compare this verse with the Hebrews 6
Hebrews 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.

As Peter describe we need to make our calling and election sure!

One of your last lines say God calls whom HE purposed to save...
May I remind you of one more verse. Many are called few are chosen.

God Bless Bruce A.

[pop james]

Bruce A..........I must admit that your reply is a good one ....of course it does not reflect on the original...but....I will respond nevertheless...I suppose I can change the subject in main stream as well as most.....first thing first....Bruce you state that you do not argue over election...I will go a little more in detail and state that you DO not understand unconditional election. If you did, you would respond with a resounding AMEN...and perhaps NOT try to immediately change the subject to a debate on whether or not the believer has assurance of the salvation having been bestowed upon he or she is eternal...once for all....and everlasting to everlasting. Instead you present a lengthy post trying to convince us that our salvation is not sure once the blood has been applied. To that Bruce I say shame on ya!!!
Here is the simple, then I will go a little deeper....The verses you quote are for real and do issue a warning to the believer to be aware of certain pitfalls...and yes...to even to make our election sure (which is in 1st peter...not 2nd peter....and is in the 1st chapter not the 2nd.) which is what peter is speaking of here...You see Bruce.....Our election IS sure with GOD...it is,as peter instructs, for US to make our election sure....it is confidence within our selves that we are truly of the elect....and when we have this confidence we know without a doubt that GOD has saved us, through the work of HIS beloved SON....NOT temporary....but eternaly.....hope you see this Bruce.....here is scriptural evidence:
"The name of the LORD is a strong tower. The righteous runneth into it, and is safe"....prov 18:10

We are safe because we are "hid" with CHRIST in GOD..col 3:33

He who has begun a good work in the believer will" perform it until the day of JESUS CHRIST"...phil 1:6

CHRIST promises HIS own..."I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee"..heb 13:5.......(BRUCE...this verse alone carries a lot weight)

Now consider this verse......"Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law, ye are fallen from grace" gal 5:4.....notice... a person cannot be justified by works of the law, but by the faith of JESUS CHRIST..gal 2:16...so..a person cannot fall from grace. The galations had fallen away from the teaching of salvation by grace to the teaching of salvation by the law. In this they had fallen from grace. You will say more than likely that they are lost again.....my response to that notion is read 1:11...Paul calls them brethren....Paul calls them sons of GOD and possessors of the HOLY SPIRIT in 4:6 and again in 6:1 Spiritual. The only conclusion is that they are , in pauls mind, genuine believers.

One more comment and I will let you chew on this Bruce.....as far as many are called but few are chosen......I have posted this before in our discussions....either you refuse to acknowledge it or perhaps just forgetful,and, if the latter then I understand for as time passes I have become more aware of how easy it is to forget sometimes.....to the matter....certainly one can be called and not be of the chosen....john 6 is a wonderful example of this....many are called, and these who overcome(with the help of the HOLY SPIRIT) are the elect....many hear the call and respond but as the seed in rocky or baren ground fall by the wayside....are choked out by the evil one......These who overcome are those mentioned in john 3:16..."Whosever believeth in JESUS CHRIST shall not perish, but has everlasting life......
Bruce....I pray the LORD opens up your heart to these truths....we have been going back and forth about this for some time....My hope is that the repetition overcomes the doubt in your heart about being eternaly secure in CHRIST....I will end by quoting a dear saint nearing 90 yrs of age who I visit weekly.......he always reminds me....scriptural repetition is Spiritual muselage.......(glue)........regards.....Pop

[StevenPriscilla]

I don't beleive there is an election. It is not Gods will that any should perish. And if Gods will is perfect, than all are called but it's up to who chooses to answer. Jesus said that the Promise is unto you and unto your children and to all that are a far off. ALL is the big word there. God Bless!!!-Steven:)

[pop james]

If you are quoting 2nd peter 3:9...and I believe you are....there is a need for you to go back and read the complete chapter in order to find out who peter is speaking to.....or at least go to the 1st chapter and find out who...for he is refering to the elect.....and indeed...GOD is not willing any elect will perish....As far as not believing in election as you stated....well.....all I can share with you is that you disagree with GOD......better take another look....regards....Pop

[Brucea]

Dear Pop James:
You have skirted many verses that I have given like Jesus said "he who endures to the end will be saved".
And yet again you ask me to accept your rewrite of God is not willing that any should perish. Not now, not ever.
You ignore the Timothy passage that says the same thing.

Pop James, to your surprise, I don't believe in a yo-yo type salvation. I firmly believe there is one being birthed into the kingdom of God. It can never happen again. With that said, as I have pointed out in many other post, there is a spurning of the Spirit of grace where by you have been sanctified Hebrews 10) There is one falling away from faith after you have been a partaker. (Hebrews 6) And as the passage in 2 Peter 2 declares one can escape the pollutions of the world and be entangled and overcome by them. It would be better to have never been saved as to apostate.
That is why the Word is replete with warning to hold on to the confession of your faith in Jesus Christ.

Election is according to God's foreseeing! That what Romans 8 declares. That why it is set before the foundation of the world. God knew the choices men would make and He determined to use that for His glory. Joshua told the Israelites choice you this day whom you will serve. It goes back further with Adam and Eve and don't eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. He gave Adam a command to not eat and to say that it was God's desire that Adam and Eve eat of the tree is crazy. Yet with where you stand on election you would have to come to the conclusion God wanted Adam and Eve to sin.

Galatians 2 where there was a fall from grace is not the same as what we find in Hebrews 6 where they crucify Jesus afresh and can not be renewed. In Galatians 2 there was renewal by coming back into serving God through grace.

The offer of salvation is indeed given to as many as the Lord our God shall call. Then men make a choice.

Jesus said And I, if I be lifted up will draw all men unto me. All means all. The power of the cross is so that all men might be saved, yet we know many will go to the broad path of destruction. Yet God has offered to all!

Yes, go on and rewrite some of these verses; however, it can not change the truth. To quote from you I pray that God will open your eyes to this truth presented in balance of all the Word and not excluded many Words of grace.

God Bless Bruce A

[Recycled]

I don't beleive there is an election.

That's a pretty brazen statement-- let's take a look at the Bible.

In Isaiah 42:1, Jesus, the promised Messiah is referred to as God's elect.

In Isaiah 45:4, Jacob, aka Israel, is referred to as God's elect.

In Isaiah 65:9, the inheritor of God's mountains is Jesus, God's elect.

In Isaiah 65:22, the nation Israel, God's people, are referred to as His elect.

1Peter 2:6 Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone (Jesus), elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded.

There are many more, too many to print here.

Election is clearly in the Bible-- it's how different people understand it that comes into question.

R~

[StevenPriscilla]

I believe that God elected people in the Bible to do a work for him. What i do not believe in is a mass election of people who are the only ones who can be saved. I understand that God knows even before you are born whether you will choose him or not. But you still have a choice. We are the ones who elect to choose Him or not. He already knows. It is not Gods will that any should perish so is it so BRAZEN for me to think that he has made the choice? No i think it is up to us. Just because he knows doesn't mean he is the one who has made the choice for all. You much remember too that Jesus was chosen by God, he was God in the flesh. So how could he be elected? I understand your points but the hardcore veiw so bring up of election is so far off that it's not funny. Election in my eyes is not to far off from Predestination. It seems new doctine derives off of old doctrine. God Bless!!!-Steven:)

[Recycled]

Steven, if you will go back and read what you had posted, with no clarification, that came across as a pretty brazen statement, which is what I replied to.

As for this post, you are more correct in stating that God has elected some to do a work for Him.

However, the over-all view of election remains subject to differences of opinion, of which there are many.

Blessings,

R~

[Wendell]

Steven, there is nothing "far off", about election or predestination. It is the rejection of these two parallel doctrines that is far off. The bible clearly teaches that God has chosen, elected, those who he will save. And he chose them before they were born, or had done anything good or evil. If God elected them based on his foreknowledge of what he knew they would do in the future, then he is basing his election on some good act they would do, and not according to his own perfect sovereign will, and good pleasure.

I have seen many here and else where attempt all kinds of theological contortions, to try to explain away what God has clearly stated in scripture about his sovereign act of choosing those he would save, while deliberately leaving the rest, dead in their sin; But I have seen no one, succed. Gods word is clear...It is God who chooses, it is us poor miserable sinners who are chosen, and delivered from a certain hell.

No one person will be saved that was not elect, chosen, of God from before the foundation of the world. At the same time, there will not be one person in hell, that desired to come to christ, but was rejectedt, because he was not one of the elect.

The great gulf that seperates heaven and hell, is in the first instance, Gods sovereign act of His Free Grace, in election. What a joy it is to rest in his sovereign free grace, as compared to the torment of will worship under the judgment of God.

blue

[pop james]

Bruce......it is with deep concern that I reply to your reply...I will refrain from addressing your charges of my rewriting verses in order to change the truth......except to say...."RUBBISH".

I will however take a couple or so of the scriptures you have quoted and explore them with you in order to untwist YOUR line of thinking....for instance....your claim that 2nd peter:2 20 is speaking of a saved individual...take another look Bruce...Paul is speaking of false teachers who wanted to escape the moral poisons (pollutions) of this world by seeking religion to do so....of course not being believers they get caught up again and it would be better for them to not have known the way of righteousness than to have known and turned away......
Your statement about election being according to GODs "forseeing" in Rom 8 can not stand as far as I can tell....For in romans election is described many
ways... I could be mistaken, (if so give me specific scripture) but forsees is not one of them....now forknowledge is one description of election in rom 8. This would certainly unite the thought of GODs sovereign grace in salvation when compared to other descriptions of election in rom....for example...Election of saints is Sovereign...9:15......is irrespective of merit...9:11....of grace...11:15...to the saints eternal glory...according to the purpose of GOD...9:11...is effectual to the calling of saints...8:30....in order to be accepted by GOD...11:17....working for all things for good...8:28...
The point of GOD forseeing who will believe and then electing them is just not there.
Thats enough for this post....oh wait......the remark you made about "choose this day who you will serve"??....Bruce I will refrain , once again, from comment except to say....go back and read it again(whole chapter). ...............regards....Pop

[Recycled]

oh wait......the remark you made about "choose this day who you will serve"??....Bruce I will refrain , once again, from comment except to say....go back and read it again(whole chapter). ...............regards....Pop
Pop, with all due respect, I'll have to go with Bruce on this one-- according to Joshua 24:1-2, Joshua assembled all the tribes of Israel with all their leaders and in verse two, "Joshua said unto all the people...."

I'm unsure just what Bruce's issue is, but on this one point, he is correct in stating that Joshua was addressing the nation Israel.

R~

[Wendell]

I'm unsure just what Bruce's issue is, but on this one point, he is correct in stating that Joshua was addressing the nation Israel.

yes he was...and he said to them...

Jos 24:15 And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.

First premise is... "if it seem evil unto you to serve the lord"

evidently joshua knew the predisposition of their hearts.. after all he lived with them, and knew what a stiffnecked and rebellious people they really were.

secondly he gave them a choice...and the choice was???

choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell:

please, note.. the choice, was not between the true God, and the false god, but rather between two categories of false gods. the false gods that were known by the israelites on the other side of jordan, or the false gods in the land of the amorites, where they presently lived.

joshua knew their hearts, and knew that this was the only choice, that lay before them in their natural fallen dead in sin nature. he does not present a choice between the true God, and the false, but between two false gods.

Any appeal to joshua 24:15 to prove man is able to savingly choose for God, falls short, for the simple reason that that is not the choice offered by joshua, and because he was speaking under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, it was not offered to them by God either. Gods word to Israel and indeed to all mankind, is not a choice, it is a COMMAND!!! Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved.

Those who are dead in sin, can only choose sin... They cannot choose for God, they can only choose for those, dead, false, useless gods, joshua offered to them. Joshua on the other hand says...As for me and my house, "we will", serve the Lord... It is all about election. God chooses. God quickens. Joshua had been made alive in Him, and he and his house served the Lord. the rest...they chose the gods they would serve. and as pop would say....:-) read on.... see how long it was until they had "chosen" to follow their gods.

Jdg 2:8 And Joshua the son of Nun, the servant of the LORD, died, being an hundred and ten years old.
Jdg 2:9 And they buried him in the border of his inheritance in Timnathheres, in the mount of Ephraim, on the north side of the hill Gaash.
Jdg 2:10 And also all that generation were gathered unto their fathers: and there arose another generation after them, which knew not the LORD, nor yet the works which he had done for Israel.
Jdg 2:11 And the children of Israel did evil in the sight of the LORD, and served Baalim:
Jdg 2:12 And they forsook the LORD God of their fathers, which brought them out of the land of Egypt, and followed other gods, of the gods of the people that were round about them, and bowed themselves unto them, and provoked the LORD to anger.
Jdg 2:13 And they forsook the LORD, and served Baal and Ashtaroth.
Jdg 2:14 And the anger of the LORD was hot against Israel, and he delivered them into the hands of spoilers that spoiled them, and he sold them into the hands of their enemies round about, so that they could not any longer stand before their enemies.


blue

[Recycled]

Blue, I did as Pop said and went back and read the entire chapter, only to find that Joshua did, indeed, give his people a choice-- first, he commanded them to fear the Lord and serve Him; they were admonished to put away the false gods of their fathers; if it seemed evil to them to fear God, they were to choose for themselves who they would serve, but Joshua would serve the Lord.

What did the people choose in verse 16? they chose God.

I don't want to get tangled up in any doctrinal argument-- it's counter-productive. This is what the Bible says and regardless of anybody's doctrinal stance, I have to go with the Bible.

Respectfully,

R~

Jos 24:14 Now therefore fear the LORD, and serve him in sincerity and in truth: and put away the gods which your fathers served on the other side of the flood, and in Egypt; and serve ye the LORD.

Jos 24:15 And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that [were] on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.

Jos 24:16 And the people answered and said, God forbid that we should forsake the LORD, to serve other gods;

[Brucea]

The subjects who had escaped in 2 Peter were not the false teachers but those who had been fooled by the false teachers. They had indeed escaped. In your line of thinking they really had not escaped at all for they were never saved. The only escape from the pollutions of this world is found in Jesus Christ. If they had not found Jesus there was no escape. I don't intend to offend you when I say you are rewriting scripture. It may not be your intent yet it is the result. In the same way you rewrite, "God is not willing that any should perish but all should come to repentance.", your definition of this passage boils down to say it does not mean what it says.

If you look up foreknow in Romans 8 in the definition you will find foresee. It is a part of the definition you leave out which is why I say you change verses by taking a part of a definition that you like and leaving out the rest which is an incorrect way to interrpet scriptures. Many false doctrines have been built this way


4267. proginosko, prog-in-oce'-ko; from G4253 and G1097; to know beforehand, i.e. foresee:--foreknow (ordain), know (before).

Romans 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

If you leave the word foreknow as defined here it shows God did not pick and choose some to go to heaven and some to go to hell. If you leave foreknow with its correct definition you have to leave the false teaching you share. It is based upon what God knew beforehand, yes what he foresaw. With this truth in mind about God's foreknowledge it changes perspective on Romans 9. We must not forget what we learned in chapter 8 about predestination; it is based upon God's forseeing or knowing beforehand.

Let me in with the inclusiveness of the cross. Jesus said if I be lifted up from the earth I will draw all men unto me.

Romans 5:18 Therefore, as through one man's offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man's righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life.
19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so also by one Man's obedience many will be made righteous.

The offer of justification is to all; some receive this wonderful free gift and some reject.

1 Timothy 4:10 For to this end we both labor and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of those who believe.
Jesus is the Savior of all men; however some reject that great salvation.

1 Timothy 2:3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior,
4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.
Yes, based upon the authority of the Word of God, He has provided for all men to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth. Sadly the path of destruction is broad and many have and will reject Him.
However, the enormity of the sacrifice is found in John 1 and 1 John 2.

John 1:29 The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him, and said, "Behold! The Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world!

1 John 2:1 My little children, these things I write to you, so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous.
2 And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world.

God Bless Bruce A

[pop james]

Bruce......there is a difference between forseeing and foreknowledge.....I call your attention t 1peter 1;2.....the word foreknowledge here is the same as in verse 20....meaning "foreordained"...this word does not refer to any sort of awareness of what may happen. It is a predetermined relationship in the knowledge of GOD.....Foreknowledge means GOD planned before ..not that HE observed before............
Now for 2 peter 2.......Bruce how in the world can you seriously say these were not false prophets?.....regards..Pop

[Recycled]

The subjects who had escaped in 2 Peter were not the false teachers but those who had been fooled by the false teachers. They had indeed escaped.
Bruce, I have given considerable time to pondering the chapter in question and I have determined that you are only partially correct in your assertion.

The second chapter of Second Peter starts out with Peter's assurance that as false teachers had existed in the past, they would continue to exist. Peter continues with a description of their evil ways.

The subject changes in Verse 18, as follows: "For when they (the false teachers) speak great swelling [words] of vanity, they (the false teachers) allure through the lusts of the flesh, [through much] wantonness, those that were clean escaped (the righteous) from them who live in error."

Now to verse 20: "For if after they (the righteous) have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, (go back to verse 18) the latter end is worse with them than the beginning."

The chapter starts out discussing the false teachers, ending with their seduction of those having escaped and the doom of those falling back into unrighteousness due to the enticement of the false teachers. The impending doom of the false teachers is all ready known, but this can be taken as a warning to beware of the false teachers, for they are a treacherous and destructive bunch.

In your quote you said they had been fooled, where I am pointing out that they would be seduced by the false teachers and entangled once again in the ways of unrighteousness.

You're a firebrand, to be sure, and I admire that. I hope this gives you a better understanding of the subject at hand.

R~

[Brucea]

Dear Recycled: verse 21 causes me to stand by my original conclusion. Thanks for responding though. I always have an open heart to correction and I did carefully review what you wrote. I'm not absolutely sure you understood my first statement. Or maybe I don't understand what you are trying to point out to where you feel I'm incorrect.

As I understand the verse It is the righteous one who got entangle in sin and is overcome. It would have been better to never come to righteousness to begin with. That to me is the hopeless state of apostasy. found also in Hebrews 6:4-6 and Hebrews 10:26-30

God Bless Bruce A.

[Recycled]

Bruce, I don't thinik there's any misunderstanding at all-- I agree that it's the righteous, or saved ones that are deceived and become entangled once again in the ways of unrighteousness, only I didn't see them as "fooled" as you had stated, but deceived and enticed-- maybe it's all the same thing, since the end result is pretty much the same.

R~