Fate of the church:

[OneJoe]

I believe these scriptures are a fair warning of what our churches are becoming and will inevitably result in. Given the condition of the churches today, how close we are to the end, I decided to this. In relation to the end of times and the modern church today as a representation of the Old Testament Synagogues, I would like to get others biblical views on these scriptures. I would like a biblical view, not an opinionated view.

*Mat 10:16 Behold, I send you forth as sheep in the midst of wolves: be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves.
*Mat 10:17 But beware of men: for they will deliver you up to the councils, and they will scourge you in their synagogues;

*Mat 24:9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.


*Mat 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)
Mar 13:14 But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, let (him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judea flee to the mountains:
*Mat 24:16 Then let them which be in Judea flee into the mountains:

*Mar 13:9 But take heed to yourselves: for they shall deliver you up to councils; and in the synagogues ye shall be beaten: and ye shall be brought before rulers and kings for my sake, for a testimony against them.

Now, there are so many verses I have came across that relate to the churches and others that appear to relate, but I am unclear about those as of now.

I would like to first begin by asking, why would anyone be getting beat or scourged in a church? Why would this happen? God is telling the believers this, or warning them of things to come. Is the fate of the churches as we know it destined for evil later? Perhaps it is! Rev 1:5-6, Rev5:10 refers to us as kings. Also, i'm sure many are familiar with the great harlot or Babylon which I have grown to view as the churches more and more.
*Rev 17:17 For God hath put in their hearts to fulfill his will, and to agree, and give their kingdom unto the beast, until the words of God shall be fulfilled.
*Rev 17:18 And the woman which thou sawest is that great city(Babylon), which reigneth over the kings of the earth. *Rev 18:3 For all nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, and the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth are waxed rich through the abundance of her delicacies.
*Rev 18:7 How much she hath glorified herself, and lived deliciously, so much torment and sorrow give her: for she saith in her heart, I sit a queen, and am no widow, and shall see no sorrow. *Rev 18:9 And the kings of the earth, who have committed fornication and lived deliciously with her, shall bewail her, and lament for her, when they shall see the smoke of her burning,

Looking at the churches in light of this, it would appear people have given their kingdom or the churches over to Satan and don't realize it because God has put it on their hearts to do what he willed. They have given the churches to satan and he rules them over them as the king of Bablyon and now God has called his true believers out of the churches. "Rev 18:4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues." Indeed, Satan was not able to prevail against the churches while the Holy Spirit was present in the midst of the congregations; however, once the Holy Spirit was removed from the churches, Satan was able to take his seat.
*2Th 2:7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.....Here, we see the Holy Spirit restrains Satan until he is removed...then....2Th 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshiped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.

Since the Holy Spirit was removed from the churches and in time all of God's people will have come out of the churches then Rev 18:23 would come to light..."Rev 18:23 And the light of a candle shall shine no more at all in thee; and the voice of the bridegroom and of the bride shall be heard no more at all in thee: for thy merchants were the great men of the earth; for by thy sorceries were all nations deceived."

We can see in the bible that God has warned us of the things to come. I'm not looking for opinions of who likes this view, but rather who sees a scriptural reason as to why this could not biblically be right. Perhaps others will also see the fate of the church.



*Jer 42:11 Be not afraid of the king of Babylon, of whom ye are afraid; be not afraid of him, saith the LORD: for I am with you to save you, and to deliver you from his hand.

[SaintSean]

lol..

Blue has a new convert no doubt.

I totally, and whole heartily DISAGREE with this.

I would like to first begin by asking, why would anyone be getting beat or scourged in a church? Why would this happen? God is telling the believers this, or warning them of things to come. Is the fate of the churches as we know it destined for evil later? Perhaps it is! Rev 1:5-6, Rev5:10 refers to us as kings. Also, i'm sure many are familiar with the great harlot or Babylon which I have grown to view as the churches more and more.
*Rev 17:17 For God hath put in their hearts to fulfill his will, and to agree, and give their kingdom unto the beast, until the words of God shall be fulfilled.

those who are not "true believers" are not kings.God put it in their hearts to "furfill" his will, why? To furfill scripture prophecy. There will be a great falling away first. Are all those that fell away saved? Fleeing the church? I think not. But rather those in the church "not in the building religion as the elders on CCF so despise" but rather the true body of Christ. Obviously if you think these verses in revelation relate to "churches" than you totally take out the end time war apoloclypse our Lord referes to in. And ye would better have it to be Christ coming back fighting against churches, when it is "nations". Yea rather, at best this is a theory and one not proven in scripture. But rather a man's idea, theory, who justfies it with a broad scripture view that someone with a imagination would have to agree with(to put it midly).The words bolded can describe any modern cult, nation, or false religion. You once believed these verses refered to the Catholic church did you not Joe? What scriptures now change that view? Not many from what you have posted. Instead I see with the sway of things on CCF "forsake the church, it is a dying cause", ye have in the light of our Lord's words (warning only of false churches and wolves in sheeps clothething" converted to another unproven idea. Everyone can say what's wrong with the church today, but who is doing something to fix it? I believe we need revival, and whether one would believe so our not, i do not try to adjust the scriptures to agree with my point of view. I really wish i had the time as i did before, back in my first year on CCF to debate long posts because this would be very intresting. All i can say is, do take heed Joe. Do be rash with thy mouth, and sin against God. O how i wish I was blessed as once before to search the scriptures, and reason with my fellow brethern!!!!

*Mat 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand
Mar 13:14 But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, let (him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judea flee to the mountains:
*Mat 24:16 Then let them which be in Judea flee into the mountains:
We all know these verses refere to the rebuilt temple in jeresulem, not to a church.

[SaintSean]

Also and note.

I DO NOT claim that i understand all the propecies and things in the book of revelation. I understand very little, as we all do, I am just little a enoough to amit it. Neither will i try to understand, who understands all the bible? I would love to meet that man, for surely it is our Lord's 2nd coming. But yea rather i shall wait untill that great day, when God himself reveals it unto me. Just clearifying..

[zarxs]

How can you compare the verses of Matthew that were intended to warn the apostles 2000 years ago to the passages from Revelations which were to warn us in the end times? Apples to Oranges. You can't take passages out of thier context.

[SaintSean]

Amen Zarxs...

[OneJoe]

How can you compare the verses of Matthew that were intended to warn the apostles 2000 years ago to the passages from Revelations which were to warn us in the end times? Apples to Oranges. You can't take passages out of thier context.
First, take a look at Mathew again. Ch. 24 plainly has the disciples asking Christ of the end of days...or end of the world and the signs which shall come before the end. Yes, we all know Revelation is in regard to the end of time; however, that is not the only book which speaks of the last days. So perhaps we can get rid of the apples to oranges statements and look at the bible. How could somone miss where the disciples are asking of the signs to come? Christ may have been telling this to the disciples 2000 years ago..but it is in regard to the last days..our days. I posted scriptures that are all in the context of the end of days and do speak of beatings in the churches. Now you can try to separate it into a specific church or view these scriptures as all churches, but it does not take away the fact that Christ not only told the disciples of the last days, but we too are fairly warned with these words. I did in fact view the Catholic church as the great harlot at one time, but I now see the Catholic church is not the only church out there that is turning from God. There is a great famine in the churches now. People are being starved of God's word for more "feelings" and a band in the church for just one big party.

Now I am willing to get deeper into this topic and will show many more scriptures as we go on, but if your going to disagree, then show me where i'm wrong rather than just saying i'm wrong. I do not mind disagreement, because that means I may very well learn something here, but how can anyone reprove me by just saying i'm wrong or making statements about fruits? Show me where I can't possibly be right and I will also show you why I believe I am.

[OneJoe]

Sean, Zarxs, the only way I can be reproved is for someone to show me where I am wrong, which involves discussing it. I realize you don't have much time, but any amount of time you spend can help. I don't always have time anymore so I will have to respond when I can also. Now, no the unsaved people are not the kings. However, the saved people have been in the church therefore the Holy Spirit also was present. But 2Th 2:7 shows where the Holy Spirit is removed and Satan takes his seat in the churches. I believe this is the great falling away. The falling away from the truth, from God. Of course, God has put it in their heart to fulfill his will and give their kingdom to satan. The kings have drunken of the wine of her fornication...believed the deceit in the churches today. At first, I was not sure how to take the "merchants" in context; however, I believe perhaps these are the deceivers or possibly the false prophets. Rev 18:23 says the bride and bridegroom shall be heard no more at all in thee. I believe this is speaking of the churches because that is where God, the bridegroom, would be. However, once God and his bride is no longer there, the great merchants or deceivers would no longer be able to deceive. 18:23 says by the merchants sorceries, were all nations deceived. So i am lead to believe the merchants are the false prophets, wolves in sheeps clothing.
Mat 7:15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
Mat 24:11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.
Mat 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
2Pe 2:1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.
2Pe 2:2 And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of.
2Pe 2:3 And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you: whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not, and their damnation slumbereth not.

As far as fleeing from the church goes, Christ's people will flee from the church when God wills them to do so. I believe this is taking place now. I am hearing of a growing number of people leaving the churches because they know the truth and realize the abominations that are taking place in the churches. They may not all be aware that God is willing them to come out, but they do so because the truth is in them and they want no part of the lies and deceit in the churches.

Quote: "Obviously if you think these verses in revelation relate to "churches" than you totally take out the end time war apoloclypse our Lord referes to in. And ye would better have it to be Christ coming back fighting against churches, when it is "nations"."

I found this statement interesting because indeed, the war still takes place. Christ will be coming back, and he will be fighting against nations. I believe the nations spoken of are the churches. If you look at the strongs number for nations, you will see it is also used as "people". Revelations speaks of when God shall destroy Babylon. He will make war on the churches which when that time comes, will solely consist of those that remain, the unsaved. "And Rev 18:11 And the merchants of the earth shall weep and mourn over her; for no man buyeth their merchandise any more:"

Also, I would like to finish with your view of CCF. First, everyone here has different beliefs, which is what I have come to love about this place. It is where I can be reproved or corrected. I know of only one other person that believes anything similar to this and obviously a better understanding than I have, but as for anyone else, I am not aware of others believing this. I do not know others views on this topic, nor will I assume how they believe. Also, I have not been "converted" to another belief by anyone. God changes my views. I too saw this view as just crazy when I first heard it, but I myself have taken a look and I find more and more every time I look that I believe refers to the churches. I have attempted to point out one church, or one nation, etc, but find things that lead me to believe otherwise. Sean, I am not surprised that you don't agree, and that is fine. It is not me who changes anything. It is not me who converts you, nor grants you understanding. I believe this because God has granted me an open mind to all views of the scriptures and I trust God to grant me understanding. I understand also that you believe the churches need a revival, but only God can stop or correct the condition their in, but as for my view, I believe God is willing this to take place. After all, nothing happens that isn't according to his will, that he doesn't allow and if God willed for a churches to be better, then it would happen.

[deepEnuf2dream]

*2Th 2:7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.....Here, we see the Holy Spirit restrains Satan until he is removed...then....2Th 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshiped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.

onejoe, consider this verse:

Daniel 12:1 "At that time Michael, the great prince who protects your people, will arise. There will be a time of distress such as has not happened from the beginning of nations until then. But at that time your people--everyone whose name is found written in the book--will be delivered.

This is a more likely reference to the quoted verse, as everywhere in scripture we are warned of the tribulation of anti-christ, first so that when it happens we will know, and second so that we can prepare ourselves ahead of time and be ready to endure under the pressure of it.

Matthew 24:21-22 For then there will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now--and never to be equaled again. If those days had not been cut short, no one would survive, but for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened.


Matthew 24:29-31 "Immediately after the distress of those days "`the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from the sky, and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.' "At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and all the nations of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky, with power and great glory. And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.

Notice, that it is for the sake of the 'elect' that those days are shortened, directly implying that we will still be here to endure such times. And also note that it is after this time of great distress that Christ will return to receive His elect, and since we will not be left alone (ie without the Holy Spirit/Councelor) it can clearly not be refering to the Holy Spirit being taken out of the way.

Revelation 12:7-12,17 And there was war in heaven. Michael and his angels fought against the dragon, and the dragon and his angels fought back. But he was not strong enough, and they lost their place in heaven. The great dragon was hurled down--that ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan, who leads the whole world astray. He was hurled to the earth, and his angels with him. Then I heard a loud voice in heaven say: "Now have come the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God, and the authority of his Christ. For the accuser of our brothers, who accuses them before our God day and night, has been hurled down. They overcame him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony; they did not love their lives so much as to shrink from death. Therefore rejoice, you heavens and you who dwell in them! But woe to the earth and the sea, because the devil has gone down to you! He is filled with fury, because he knows that his time is short."

***Then the dragon was enraged at the woman and went off to make war against the rest of her offspring--those who obey God's commandments and hold to the testimony of Jesus.***

So there is still a physical war that rages against our soul that will be coming. Be prepared and remain watchful. God bless you all.

[deepEnuf2dream]

I should ammend my above message to state that, just because the 'church' is still here, refering to those who are faithful followers of Christ Jesus, doesn't mean that what is called 'the church' or mainstream christianity/churchianity is a part of this 'church of the faithful'.

I do agree that there is a real need, because of the deceptions that flourish in the world and in mainstream christianity, to come out from among them and be seperate (sanctified or set apart). God bless all, fight the good fight of faith.

[blueheron32]

deepEnuf..

you verses are good ones and do not contradict what joe has been saying... consider...Throughout the new testament church age the Holy Spirit has protected the churches and congregations where ever they are found in the world. During that time as the churches more or less faithfully preached the gospel, the Holy Spirit applied that gospel to the lives of Gods elect and they became saved, and it was Gods purpose that they would be part of a local congregation. Satan was not allowed to frustrate the grace of God as the gospel went forth from the churches conquering and to conquer. He was restrained by the Holy Spirit.

But as we get very near the end, we see a startling change taking place. According to the verses you quoted, there will be great tribulation such as the world has never known. That tribulation is not a great physical war between Christ and the forces of evil, But a great change in Gods relationship to the churches and congregations throughout the world. 2 Thess chap two describes that change, just as matthew 24 does. Several things are happening all at once.

1. The Holy Spirit is being withdrawn from the churches. He is not withdrawn from the world, because then as you say, he would be seperated from the elect, an impossible situation. At the same time the Holy Spirit is withdrawing from the churches...

2. The true believers..the elect of God, are being commanded to come out of the churches..Rev 18:4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues. The churches have become the harlot, so as Gods judgment begins, it begins with the house of God..the churches..and we see the seperation of the wheat and the tares...

3. Satan takes his seat in the churches. No, we dont see him literally sit upon a throne, but as the Holy Spirit is withdrawn, according to Gods purpose, He is allowed to have his way in the congregations...so that even though they believe they are serving God, in reality they are serving satan. It is in this situation that we see the great falling away, and the great tribulation, when Gods people see the House of God, or the Holy Place as it is spoken of, being transformed into the Harlot of Revelation 17, and 18. You can also see an illustration of Satan taking his seat in the congregation in Isiah 14

Isa 14:13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:
Isa 14:14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.

But even though God allows him to take his seat there, in the end he is destroyed, when he has fulfilled his purpose.

Isa 14:15 Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.
Isa 14:16 They that see thee shall narrowly look upon thee, and consider thee, saying, Is this the man that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms;
Isa 14:19 But thou art cast out of thy grave like an abominable branch, and as the raiment of those that are slain, thrust through with a sword, that go down to the stones of the pit; as a carcase trodden under feet.

The Gospel and the hope of salvation will also be cut off from the Harlot as the Holy Spirit will no longer be applying the Gospel there...

Rev 18:22 And the voice of harpers, and musicians, and of pipers, and trumpeters, shall be heard no more at all in thee; and no craftsman, of whatsoever craft he be, shall be found any more in thee; and the sound of a millstone shall be heard no more at all in thee;
Rev 18:23 And the light of a candle shall shine no more at all in thee; and the voice of the bridegroom and of the bride shall be heard no more at all in thee: for thy merchants were the great men of the earth; for by thy sorceries were all nations deceived.
Rev 18:24 And in her was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth.

Her destruction will be total and complete and permenant. God never promised that the physical structures called the churches and congregations would exist forever...but the true church, the invisible church made up of the elect of God, the true believers....will never be forsaken by the Holy Spirit. They will be safe and secure forever more..

These ideas may be startling, even repugnant to people who have spent their whole lives connected to the church, even as I have, But as time goes by, I am not surprised to find many who are now serving the Lord outside of the churches, sickened by the decadent nature of the Harlot, while not understanding what is going on, they know they can no longer remain in such a place. One way or another God will seperate his people from the Harlot, and then utter destruction will come to her. He who has ears to hear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.

blueheron32

[cyberemnant]

Onejoe...I want to enter this discussion along the points on which we agree so you can see that my purpose is not to divide, but to unite and edify. Yes, there are things I don't agree with, but will discuss that later...

You are right to say that Jesus was answering the question He was asked in Matt 24:3, therefore, the discourse must be taken in the context of the question being answered. HOWEVER, there are prophecies in the Bible that have a "dual-fulfillment", i.e., they had a local, literal fulfillment (for instance, in the days of the apostles) and also a future, figurative fulfillment. That is why many of the prophecies concerning the fate of "Babylon" were fulfilled in Old Testament times. BUT...there is coming a secondary fulfillment of the prophecies regarding "Babylon" (e.g. Rev. 14:8...'Babylon is fallen...') that is yet to take place. Those secondary fulfillments are not referring to Babylon, the ancient city of the Middle East, but "Babylon the Great, the Mother of Harlots and Abominations of the Earth" Rev. 17:5, which, I believe is a union of every apostate religion on earth, Roman Catholicism being the "Mother" and the 'daughters' (a mother is not a mother unless she has children) being the apostate (at one time truly Christian, but now very compromising) churches which I suspect are the Protestant churches which splintered away from the Mother church during the Reformation.

I'm sorry if I tried to say too much in one post, but I had to build a context for my comments...

What do you think of this position?

[deepEnuf2dream]

Thank you blueheron32. I don't disagree with any thing you said there. I may have misunderstood onejoe, I was primarily refuting the idea of the pre trib rapture, which is normally the way 2 Thesselonians 2:7 is interpreted.

I read back over all the post and see that onejoe has a different slant on it....one in which I don't necessarily disagree with. God bless everyone. Fight the good fight and keep seeking.

[germanJoy]

Looking at the churches in light of this, it would appear people have given their kingdom or the churches over to Satan and don't realize it because God has put it on their hearts to do what he willed. They have given the churches to satan and he rules them over them as the king of Bablyon and now God has called his true believers out of the churches. "Rev 18:4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues." Indeed, Satan was not able to prevail against the churches while the Holy Spirit was present in the midst of the congregations; however, once the Holy Spirit was removed from the churches, Satan was able to take his seat.
*2Th 2:7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.....Here, we see the Holy Spirit restrains Satan until he is removed...then....2Th 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshiped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.

Since the Holy Spirit was removed from the churches and in time all of God's people will have come out of the churches then Rev 18:23 would come to light..."Rev 18:23 And the light of a candle shall shine no more at all in thee; and the voice of the bridegroom and of the bride shall be heard no more at all in thee: for thy merchants were the great men of the earth; for by thy sorceries were all nations deceived."

Hi Onejoe, If we read carefully the whole Chapter 2 of 2 Thessalonians, we will get a complete understanding of its context. Paul, Silvanus, and Timothy were fully aware that the APOSTASY (Satan seating in the temple of God) will come BEFORE THE DAY OF THE LORD. To correct the erroneous belief causing panic to the believers, they wrote (since some have claimed that the day of the Lord has already come):
v2that you may not be quickly shaken from your composure or be disturbed either by a spirit or a message or a letter as if from us, to the effect THAT THE DAY OF THE LORD HAS COME.
v3-4 Let no one in any any way deceive you, for IT WILL NOT COME UNLESS THE APOSTASY COMES FIRST, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction who opposes and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat IN THE TEMPLE OF GOD, displaying himself as being God.
Now, still speaking about the man of lawlessness (not the Holy Spirit)
v6-7 And you know what restrains him now, so that in his time he may be revealed (the man of lawlessness). For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only he who now restrains will do so until HE IS TAKEN OUT OF THE WAY. You see, it is the man of lawlessness who will be taken out of the way from the temple of God not the Holy Spirit.

So since the apostles were waiting for this to be revealed, did they instruct the believers to leave the churches if the APOSTASY comes? No! definitely not! On the contrary, they told them to STAND FIRM and HOLD to the traditions they were taught (traditions of NOT FORSAKING their meeting together, fellowshipping with one another, breaking the bread, reading psalms, praying, worshipping etc.) v15 So then brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught, whether by word of mouth or by letter from us...

I believe that the temple of God where the son of destruction will seat referred to in this chapter is in Jerusalem (it is a locational seat). However, the spirit of the anti-christ will do everything in its power to penetrate into the churches all over the world (the "compromising church" will be deceived while the "persecuted church" will abide in the truth).

This would then mean two things: First, any sanctified believer belonging to the "compromising church" should come out of her midst, thus: COME OUT OF HER, my people, that you may not participate in her sins and that you may not receive of her plagues. Rev. 18:4

Second. any wickedness, influence and deception which the spirit of anti-christ would bring into the "persecuted church" SHOULD BE REMOVED. Thus, "But those who are outside, God judges. REMOVE THE WICKED MAN FROM AMONG YOURSELVES" 1Cor. 5:13

Now, let us all believe and understand that the Holy Spirit WILL NEITHER FORSAKE NOR ABANDON His Church, the bride of Christ. After all, it He who SANCTIFIES, JUSTIFIES AND PURIFIES His body. If we forsake the Church/Body of Christ, we forsake the Holy Spirit for it He who works in the body of Christ. And the body of Christ has MANY MEMBERS but they ARE ONE.

NO MAN (believer or not) is appointed by God to remove the tares. This job Onejoe is given to the ANGELS of God and not to the church (including CCF). Most importantly, THIS JOB will be DONE at the end of the age and not today, neither by our hands nor in our time. :-)

And He (Jesus) answered and said: "The one who sows the good seed is the Son of Man, and the field is the world; and as for the good seed, these are the sons of the kingdom; and the tares are the sons of the evil one; and the enemy who sowed them is the devil, and the harvest is the end of the age; and the REAPERS ARE ANGELS. Therefore just as the tares are gathered up and burned with fire; so shall it be at the end of the age. The Son of Man will send forth His angels, and they will GATHER OUT OF HIS KINGDOM all stumbling blocks, and thos who commit lawlessness, and will cast them into the furnace of fire; in that place there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth." ;Matt. 13:37-42

It is inevitable that there are tares among us and we will GROW TOGETHER with them (Matt. 13:30) but we have no power to pull them out.

By the way, there is no "INVISIBLE" church (according to our friend blue;) ) but a church whose LIGHT SHINES AND SEEN by the world. :-)

God's blessings be upon you and all those who take heed to the words of Chirst.

[Potters House]

Praise the Lord! Onejoe, you nailed it right on the head. My husband and I have seen this for years.
The harlot is the church. What else would you call a bride that has left her husband, and gone whoring after others?
All things of the old covenant are types and shadows of the new. The book of Hebrews talks about this a lot. Gal 4:22-26 explains ( in parable form) that most of the Bible is a parable.( This is how Jesus spoke to us, and Jesus is the Word) Hosea 12:10, and Matt 13:34.
Rev 17 & 18 is crammed full of symbolic references to the spiritual condition of the subject. We don't need to understand every single symbolic element of the picture, in order to see the meaning. For example, the seven-headed, ten- horned dragon of Rev 12:3. Do we totally understand the heads and horns symbolism? Possibly not, but we do know who it is. We are told who he is. Rev 12:9 Same as the whole book of Revelation.
Why is is called Revelation? Because it has to be revealed. 1 Cor 2:7-10 says that the deeper things of God must be REVEALED by God's Holy Spirit. Ask yourself this question: Why does the mainstream teaching picture the book of Revelation the same way the world does.......a natural realm picture?
Matt 13:11. " Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given." Our understanding should be 180 degrees off from the worlds. Theirs, a natural interpretation....ours should be a spirit realm picture...." in all wisdom and spiritual understanding" Col 1:9. 1 Cor 2:13 also.

To answer your question regarding ' scourging in THEIR synagogues'. Here is the answer to that: Speaking forth the uncomfortable truth.
In carefully reading your post, we see a whole bunch of different subjects. Its difficult to address them all at the same time. But we are there with you in overall agreement.
As for beatings in the modern church, we, my husband and I, have been verbally stoned, shunned, and asked to leave. There are more battered sheep out there than most people realize. The mainstream organized "church" in this country can be a dangerous place.
In parting for now, one last thought regarding the 'end'. Heb 9:26. Says that Jesus went to the cross "IN the 'end' of the world." Something to think about in the context of this current subject.

[blueheron32]

Hi german joy...:-)

definition of terms is very important...let me provide you with one...:-)

I used the term "invisible church", let me give you a description of what I mean when I use that term.

The term church, can mean two things as i see it. There is the church as it is seen throughout the world, in its physical form...churches and congregations, demoninations, they are that physical structure, that is called the church today and has been called the church throughout the new testament church age. This church is seen, and identified by anyone. During the church age God used this structure to send forth the gospel into all the world, and generally whenever anyone was saved, they would become part of one of these congregations or denominations. That is the visible church.

On the other hand, even as in national israel, though the whole nation was identified as the people of God, at any given time only a remnant was saved. These were an "invisible" group within the larger group, that only God knew who they were. An example of that is in Elijahs day he is out in the wilderness crying to God, Im the only one left.... and God reassures him..No elijah..I have reserved unto me, seven thousand who have not bowed their knee to baal...They were those who were truly saved, the true believers amongst all the others who were closely identified with the visible structure of the nation of israel, but were not saved..

So it has been throughout the church age...there was the visible structure God established, and within that structure, there was the remnant of those who were truly saved. the invisible church. God knows who are his..He sees them, and reserves them unto himself.

God will never leave those who have truly become saved...but he has made no such promise to the physical structure of the church... the Baptist church down the street, the first methodist, and the catholic and lutheran denominations..will all meet their destruction and come to an end, But the invisible church..that is the bride of christ, the elect of God, will never be deserted by God.

On the other hand we know many churches have been established visibly...which no longer exist, they are gone.

It is not men who are seperating the true believers from the congregations..It is God himself...He gives the command, and angels are simply messengers germanjoy....who are his messengers, but his apostles and prophets by whom he gave his word.?

Rev 18:4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.
Mat 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)
Mat 24:16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
Mar 13:14 But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains:
Luk 21:21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.
Luk 21:22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.

blue..

[bumface]

to burn in hell

[germanJoy]

Very-well explained blue, got your point :-)

Perhaps taking a closer look would give us more understanding of the last days.

Mat 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand
Mat 24:16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
Mar 13:14 But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains:
Mat 24:23-26 Then if anyone says to you, 'Behold, here is the Christ,' or 'There He is,' do not believe them. For false Christs and false prophets will arise and will show great signs and wonders, so as to mislead if possible, even the elect. Behold, I have told you in advance. If therefore they say to you, 'Behold, He is in the wilderness,' do not go forth, or 'Behold, He is in the inner rooms,' do not believe them."

Does it not tell us to REMAIN in the condition or place where we are, the true church of Christ (not the historical made of gold church buildings nor the fake compromising church but one where the Holy Spirit dwells i.e., where we fellowship with our brethren) we belong to. Another interesting aspect is "NOT IN THE WILDERNESS" (which connotes a call or message of getting 'outside' or out of the church where invisible believers are) and "NOT IN THE INNER ROOMS" (which connotes a call or message of exclusion or exclusiveness of being the only chosen ones).

Well, from the Words of Christ, we can really learn many things. :-)