Pets and children in Heaven?

[Crikey Cheetah]

:af

I often thought on this issue, as much of my life has involved animals in some way. Much of my emotions have been telling me that my dog has some form of a soul, albeit different from ours. They can feel, they learn. Proverbs 12:10 tells us that the Righteous Man cares for the needs of his animal, so if God cares enough to tell us to care for His creatures, why would He not accept them in Heaven? Children haven't yet had the chance to accept Him, at least not knowledgeably. Those children who have died early, or in their youth, God loves them most of all, so He would have them in Heaven, otherwise our lives would not be complete. He would have to wipe our memories for us to be joyful. What do you guys think?

[jjmbella]

I have been an animal lover my whole life. When I was 5 years old I received my first kitten as a Christmas present. I remember asking my brother who was 10 years old at the time if there would be cats in Heaven? His response to me was "if cats will make you happy, there will be cats in Heaven". I have been blessed with both dogs and cats in my life that have made growing up much easier and enjoyable. Since His eye is on the sparrow, I do believe He will be creating a place for our beloved furry friends.

[Seeker101]

I think God does have and allow animals into heaven--"And Elisha prayed, and said, LORD, I pray thee, open his eyes, that he may see. And the LORD opened the eyes of the young man; and he saw: and, behold, the mountain was full of horses and chariots of fire round about Elisha." 2 Kings 6:17. Also there is the reference that talks about the dove that decended upon Jesus after His baptism...

[Wendell]

so He would have them in Heaven, otherwise our lives would not be complete. He would have to wipe our memories for us to be joyful. What do you guys think?

I believe he does exactly that

Rev 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

I find no indication that our pets are taken to heaven.. The happiness of a child of God, is not based upon whether or not our pets are in heaven with us. Our joy is based upon the fact, that we are with God our Father and with the Lord Jesus Christ our saviour and brother.

blue...

[Wendell]

How does the fact that God used horses to represent his power, and a dove to represent his Holy Spirit, prove that my dog, "Red" will be in heaven...??

blue

[pop james]

Eccl....3:21......"Who kows the spirit of the sons of men, which goes upward, and the spirit of the animal which goes down to the earth?".....the physical life of man, according to this scripture, ON THE SURFACE, is no different than an animals in that the animal's spirit returns to dust. Mans soul is, of course, diferent in that it is eternal. Vs 3 of the same chapter includes the words " eternity put into the hearts of man".......

The question has been asked: What about infants/children?....this one is hard on the human spirit and as far as I know the only specific time we find mention of an infant going to heaven is when King David said of his child which died....."I shall go to him, but he shall not return to me" 2 sam 2:23.....this would suggest that David anticipated seeing the child in Heaven.......that being said......here is some reality....Only the elect infants are saved, and only the elect infants die and go to heaven. Those who grow up and live all their lives rejecting Christ were never saved. If non- elect infants die, they are lost. There would be no injustice whatsoever. If the infant had lived and grown into manhood, it would have still refused Christ. We must understand that GOD sees the whole man in a child. We do not. So if one is elect, and dies an infant... or grows old....they will still enter heaven.......hope this helps you........regards ..Pop

[Crikey Cheetah]

When you say elect-infants, God already knows who would accept Him, therefore, this begs the question of Predetermination. I'm guessing God would take those children He knows would accept Him into Heaven, but not those innocents who would not? That seems too much like predetermination.
God also loves children as well, "For there is no more beautiful thing than the laughter of a child." Though He sees the man, He also knows that the child has done no wrong, that they don't deserve to be punished for something they haven't committed yet, and that they are still innocents.

[Wendell]

When you say elect-infants, God already knows who would accept Him, therefore, this begs the question of Predetermination.

Actually, Crikey.. The begging of the question, happens when someone claims that God takes those infants to heaven that, "he knows will accept him"... Pre determination and election, are the cause of one becoming saved, not the other way around. Accepting Christ, ( a phrase found nowhere in the scripture) is not the basis of our election. We do not elect ourselves by our decision for christ, but rather our salvation is determined by God, before the foundation of the world. That is what predestination means.. To determine before hand. Not because God knows what we will do, but because God has determined what HE will do.

If you wish to know what Gods foreknowledge knew about us, then the place to look is in the Holy Scripture.

Rom 3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
Rom 3:11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
Rom 3:12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
Rom 3:13 Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips:
Rom 3:14 Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness:
Rom 3:15 Their feet are swift to shed blood:
Rom 3:16 Destruction and misery are in their ways:
Rom 3:17 And the way of peace have they not known:
Rom 3:18 There is no fear of God before their eyes.

This is Gods testimony about what he foreknew about all the descendants of Adam. Not only are all men the enemies of God, but Jesus also said, they do not have the ability to come to him...

Joh 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

No man CAN come to me.. that means no man is able to come... and then Jesus provides ONE exception, and one only.

"Except the Father which hath sent me draw him." The exception that overcomes the fact that no man is able to come, has nothing to do with mans action, ie. accepting christ. But has everything to do with the singular act of God the Father drawing individuals to Christ. And who does the Father draw.... Those he has elected, predetermined, predestinated, from before the foundation of the world.

Rom 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
Rom 8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
Rom 8:31 What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?
Rom 8:32 He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?

The fact that God saves even one of us dirty rotten sinners, is a great wonder. The fact that he saves a great multitude that no man can number is incomprehensible to human understanding. What a wonderful saviour he is; What a merciful and loving Father.

blue

[Crikey Cheetah]

But I thought He called EVERYONE? Every individual on Earth is called by God, but it is their decision to follow Him.

[larry]

As for pets, Ecclesiastes 3:21 Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth?

As for children or anyone, I ask what part below does any have in their salvation?

Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

Romans 8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us (not by us), who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Romans 8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

Romans 11:2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew.

God bless you Crikey in Jesus' name - larry :)

[Spiff]

well, i'd say theres a general call extended to the earth that says, hey, i sent my son and He died, in order that you can be saved if you believe in Him. unfortunately, that call is rejected by men, because of mans nature. an unbeliever obviously does not have the Spirit. and according to Romans 8:8 those who are in the flesh can not please God. an unbeliever only has flesh, and not the Spirit, so He can not please God. Faith is pleasing to God... however, there is a more specific call to the elect that will be accepted, according to Romans 8:29-30 "For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified." it says the one's He called, HE justified, that does not leave any room for a rejection of the call, or else they would not have been justified. if we assume that when it says those He justified He also glorified, it means everyone that is justified will be glorified, then we must also assume that everyone called will be justified... however, not every individual on the earth will be glorified, and not every individual is justified... so not every individual is called...?

[Spiff]

I have recently heard a description of election that goes something like this... "this very wealthy man walks into an orphanage, and extends an offer to all the children to come to his mansion, and live with him, and be his adopted sons. well, naturally all the children want that, and they all come to accept his offer, and when they come he says, well, actually, i didnt mean all of you, i just meant you four. so he pulls the specific four out, and adopts them, and sends the rest back to the orphanage in tears..." i thinks thats a sad misrepresentation of the idea of election, and seeks to portray us as innocent children, wanting to follow our Father. a better representation would go more along these lines. "A wealthy govenor walks into a prison full of horrible criminals, all of whom hate authority, and would like nothing more than to rebel against it. so the govenor extends his inventation to all of the prisoners to come and live in his mansion, and be his adopted sons, and partake of a huge inheretence. however, all of these prisoners hate any form of authority, and because this is their nature, they absolutely reject this offer. the govenor says, very well, you may all reject it, except you four, i will take you as my adopted sons." naturally i admit its not a perfect example... you'd have to go into how he somehow changes their hearts from their present evil, anti-authoritarian heart to where they will accept his free offer, which in our case accepting is believing in Christ, but i thinks its a more accurate representation of election...

and all this really has very little to do with pets... but it did have alot to do with my previous comment which had alot to do with crikey's comment... and its just something i've been thinking alot about lately... so you all got the privelege of hearing my thoughts. ;)

[Wendell]

Crikey...

Just to add a couple words to what spiff has said..

Every person who comes to Christ, will come willingly. Not by his own strength, but as a result of Gods power at work in him..

Psa 110:3 Thy people shall be willing in the day of thy power, in the beauties of holiness from the womb of the morning: thou hast the dew of thy youth.

And they shall come freely. Not because in their unregenerate state, they have the ability to come; Because they are slaves to satan..they are dead in sins... but because God breaks their bonds asunder, raises them to a newness of life, and calls them forth from the grave of spiritual death.

Joh 8:36 If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.

Joh 11:43 And when he thus had spoken, he cried with a loud voice, Lazarus, come forth.
Joh 11:44 And he that was dead came forth, bound hand and foot with graveclothes: and his face was bound about with a napkin. Jesus saith unto them, Loose him, and let him go.

Crikey, salvation is not a human choice, but a divine choice. It is not a human act, but a divine act. It is not the result of the human will, but the result of the divine will. When a person is born again, born from above, born of God, he serves God, not as a robot, or automaton, as so many like to suggest. But rather they serve with unsupressed joy and gladness. Like a slave set free. like the lame man healed by peter, walking and leaping and praising God. Such a sinner set free from the dominion of satans kingdom will spend all of eternity singing praise to the one who set him free, and telling others the good news of what God has done for him.

Col 1:13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son.

Such a saviour, was required, for such a worm as I.

blue

[Crikey Cheetah]

Ya lost me Spiff... So you're saying not every individual is called, but elect who die as children will be in heaven, the rest in Hell? How is that fair exactly???? If all children are seen as a gift from God, and all children are His, of God before they are born, and of God in the womb, How can they not still be of God? He says directly "I have known before you were thought of. Before you were born/conceived."

So I don't get it... I understand the Elect, yes, but I don't understand why only Elect children would get into Heaven, because it just doesn't seem like God to do that.

[Crikey Cheetah]

Okay... But I still don't think Election is fair, but judging from your interpretation, it might be.

[Crikey Cheetah]

But if God gave us Free Will to choose, how can it be divine? He does lead us, but He doesn't control us until we make the choice to follow Him. I don't understand this one at all. How can it be a divine choice when we accept God on our own? (I wasn't raised in the church btw, so this could have something to do with the fact that it was my choice to come to God, but He had not been calling me yet, He just worked in my life after I accepted Him.)

[Crikey Cheetah]

He does work in our lives, but children, by nature, Do believe in Heaven, and they know what Heaven is. it is not of ourselves, but God's grace saves children. They don't know Him, but they DO have FAITH in Him. So goes Child-like faith.

Proverbs 12:10 says "the Righteous man cares for the needs of His animal."

ROMANS 8:19-21 For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God, because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. (KJV).

[godslove]

hi crikey, i believe that children if they die before age of reason go to be with God, not that i don't understand the calvinist point of view. (they have a good point) but consider the following verses...God bless

Mt 19:14 But Jesus said, Suffer little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me: for of such is the kingdom of heaven.

Mr 10:14 But when Jesus saw it, he was much displeased, and said unto them, Suffer the little children to come unto me, and forbid them not: for of such is the kingdom of God.

Lu 18:16 But Jesus called them unto him, and said, Suffer little children to come unto me, and forbid them not: for of such is the kingdom of God.

Ro 7:9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.

[pop james]

" For the Son of man is come to seek and to save that which was lost" luke 19:10........In true salvation GOD takes the initiative. GOD does the accepting, not man. The heresy of free will dethrones GOD and enthrones man. The false doctrine of free will takes the reigns of salvation from the hands of the sovereign GOD. GODs character is damaged by every person who believes in free will. Depraved natures make men unwilling to submit themselves to GODs will......." and ye willl not come to me, that ye might have life" john 5:40....."As many as were ordained to eternal life believed" acts 13:48.......Free GRACE is the only scriptural way to slavation.....If there was a valid scripture for free will it would have to be thus: GOD says....I will that every last sinner be saved, but NOT as I will, but as they will...or perhaps....GOD says....I would truly gladly help them.....therefore I send them my Son.....but their hardened heart is oopposed to my will, and their salvation....So then it is not of GOD that mercy is shown, for HIS mercy would be powerless and resistable and would mean very little............regards ....Pop

[Wendell]

How is that fair exactly????

Crikey..:-)

Does God any where in scripture, require that he act "fairly", according to how humans define, fair?? Or does the bible say that God is "just", and "good", in all he does...??

Rom 3:26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

blue

[Crikey Cheetah]

No, but the Bible says He is Just, perhaps it would define it's definition of Just.

[Crikey Cheetah]

So basically, God would control us, and our destiny? He is all-powerful correct? By this definition, He would control our daily lives simply due to the fact that He did not give us Free Will. Therefore, He controls our destiny. Okay. I've heard other arguements from a lot of people, s othis would be the christian doctrine. But I would expect Him to also be Kind in this Grace.

Yet if God controls it, controls who recieves it, it would STILLL be meaningless on the basis of it not being OUR decision. It would still be meaningless because it is by His will, It's like He's the "dictator" which seems rather ridiculous because unless someone chooses it of their own power, how can you tell if their love and praise is truthful and from their heart?

[Crikey Cheetah]

The Age of Reason kind of determines when a child can think for themselves. Even if they do know God, they don't understand, and can't understand until they are taught words, taught what they need to survive. As a baby, you won't remember or know a lot of things, but your parents can teach you values. I didn't grow up in the church, but I still chose God because I know Him. He has called me multiple times, but none before I accepted Christ. I have various drawings and dreams since then, I believe that has been His way of answering my prayers, but that can also be legitimately debated.

[Michael08]

Remember, God came to save man , not animals..though we love them very much, Gods plan said also, I give you all the animals commandment over , we use them for labor and for food. God created a soul in man, not animals. Children are Gods special creatures as is the rest of mankind, animals do not share in the salvation.

[godslove]

well crikey, i don't know what your point was in this last post. you chose? you have dreams and drawings? but anyway what God does with the children that die would be hard to prove whichever position you took. all i know is that paul was alive before the law came, but when it came he found it to be unto death...God bless.

Jon 4:8 And it came to pass, when the sun did arise, that God prepared a vehement east wind; and the sun beat upon the head of Jonah, that he fainted, and wished in himself to die, and said, It is better for me to die than to live.
9 And God said to Jonah, Doest thou well to be angry for the gourd? And he said, I do well to be angry, even unto death.
10 Then said the LORD, Thou hast had pity on the gourd, for the which thou hast not laboured, neither madest it grow; which came up in a night, and perished in a night:
11 And should not I spare Nineveh, that great city, wherein are more than sixscore thousand persons that cannot discern between their right hand and their left hand; and also much cattle?

God cares for children and even cattle.

Ex 30:11 And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,
12 When thou takest the sum of the children of Israel after their number, then shall they give every man a ransom for his soul unto the LORD, when thou numberest them; that there be no plague among them, when thou numberest them.

twenty years old and over shall give a ransom for thier soul.
if you do a study on twenty years old you may find that is when God considered someone as an adult.

[LadyVi]

So true, Crickey; well said. If we had no free will, we would be like robots. I cannot for the life of me understand that kind of thinking.

Also, I thought the topic was pets in heaven but here we are again hearing the same song - free will is a false doctrine. Go figure.

[godslove]

ladyvi, we have free will, we use it everyday, we are free to do everything that is within our limits. but you don't have free will to walk through walls, to run 60 miles an hour, to be taller, to keep yourself from sinning, even to live forever. everyone has gone astray, everyone has sinned. so what is the point. we have made ourselves enemies of God. He has no reason to accept you or me. He doesn't owe us anything but His wrath.
but He does have mercy on whom He will have mercy.
remember mankind runs to evil,
without God's intervention we woould be very happy in our sins. that is our free will.
it is not natural for us to seek God.
another point i would like to bring up is what about all the people who never have heard of Jesus? they have free will. but they don't have a chance to believe in Him because there is no preacher.
what about those God has closed thier eyes that they cannot see? they have free will but they cannot understand to believe.
free will is great. but not as great as God's mercy....God bless.

[Crikey Cheetah]

Well if we should meet our beloved pets in Heaven, you'll be proved wrong. ;) We can't really prove that God will not accept His Creation into Heaven, for He also created them, and said to Noah to take two of every creature, male and female, and preserve them. He also called it good as well, and I doubt that He would refuse them. Why else would He command us to care for them? If He did not plan to accept them, He would tell us to kill them ruthlessly, but because He tells us to protect them, He must have some other plan for them. I don't see why it wouldn't be Heaven.

[djkc28]

I used to struggle with the idea of predestined, too. But the best way to digest it is two-fold:

1. There is no past, present or future with God, like there is for us. To us, the future hasn't happened yet, so in our minds, we are free to make decisions. From God's perspective, he is outside time, outside space, overlooking it all. Every event in our universe is predestined by God, although we cannot comprehend that since we consider the future having not happened yet, and therefore open to anything we choose.

2. We do have physical free will. We do not have spiritual free will. That's the difference. We have free will to physically do whatever we want. Sin. Kill. Do good deeds. Sleep. Lie. Eat. Make babies out of wedlock. Whatever. We have that option as humans because God gave us physical free will. However, we do not have spiritual free will. That is, our spirit, which is the essence of who we are, is absolutely predetermined by God. Our spirit does not choose God. God chooses our spirit to be saved and follow him. Spiritual free will and physical free will are 2 different things. As humans in a physical world, we can only comprehend physical free will, which we do have.

This begs the question then: if God chooses who is going to hell and who is going to heaven before we're even born, then why should we be punished for not turning to him? After all, it was never in our hands to begin with. Remember, we were put here by God, to give glory to God. That is our ultimate purpose in life. Ultimately, we cannot comprehend this paradox. But we don't have to. Those who even comprehend the question most likely have been chosen by God, and have nothing to worry about. The people who need to be concerned about not being "chosen" are the ones who don't physically or spiitually care anyway. This is hard for our finite minds to digest. but to expect us to understand an infinite God is impossible. Hope this helps...

[Crikey Cheetah]

Yes, God has mercy, God has His grace for all, but just the fact that we have the free will to go to church or not, proves that we HAVE the choice to believe. If WE believe in Him and accept His grace then we recieve His grace... "For whosoever believes in Me is saved through Christ Jesus. And will be raised up on the last day."

[Crikey Cheetah]

Okay, God chooses our spirits. So what if Hitler is Heaven when we get there, can we walk out? lol...

[godslove]

hi crickey,
just because someone goes to church doesn't mean they are right with God.
as far as believing, yes we can believe what we want, but what do we believe in our heart?
Ro 10:8 But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;
9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

as far as accepting His grace and recieving His grace, it is about recieving Jesus.
Joh 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

we can have any opinion that we want but what is important is what God's opinion is.
Ro 11:34 For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counsellor?

how would you explain the following verses?
John 12:39 Therefore they could not believe, because that Esaias said again,
40 He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.

Ro 9:11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth

Rom.9:18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.---
19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?

Joh 8:41 Ye do the deeds of your father. Then said they to him, We be not born of fornication; we have one Father, even God.
42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.
43 Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.
44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it

good conversing with you again...God bless

[pop james]

crikey............Im almost ashamed to respond to this but............ think about what you are saying.....of course we all would like to have our pets in heaven with us......but of course our wants can NOT make it so......animals have no soul......besides we should spend more time fretting over those who do have souls who will not be amongst the heavenly throne, they should be our firsr concern........but.......consider this.....if our little kitty or puppy is qualified to enter heaven then all animals must be......including hogs, rattlesnakes, cat fish, etc. things we would never want to be in the heavenly abode....besides, no unclean(defiled) thing will be there. By the way humans DO ruthlessly killl animals but thats another subject.........just adding my nickel.......Pop

[Spiff]

yeah... i didnt say anything about children... if a child believes on Christ for his salvation, then i'd say he's an elect child... but otherwise... we are concieved in sin, and our just reward for sin is hell...

[PIXAPD]

'The spirit of man returns to God who gave it and the spirit of the animal goes into the earth' that's it

[Crikey Cheetah]

Never want them to be in Heaven? I beg to differ on that, but that's just my opinion...

Humans kill what they do not understand. We kill those which deserve life. Sharks are being hunted to extinction, and that's not fair in my book. Just isn't.

In case you haven't recognized it, I subscribe to Irwin's philosophy with animals, do no harm, do not kill any living thing. My two pence is going there. Apex predators DO matter in the broad scheme of things, but unfortunately, not a lot of people care enough to do anything about it.

[larry]

Dear Crikey, I guess I am sorry to see a person so filled with their own logic, listening to the world for their doctrines, and seemingly ignoring God’s word. Forgive me if I seem uncaring, though I do love animals also, but God told us to kill animals. I will just mention the verses below, and you can twist them anyway you want to if you have itching ears to hear only what you want to hear. May God show you truth in Jesus’ name - larry

Genesis 3:21 Unto Adam also and to his wife did the LORD God make coats of skins, and clothed them. (Did God slay the animals here?)

Genesis 4:4 And Abel, he also brought of the firstlings of his flock and of the fat thereof. And the LORD had respect unto Abel and to his offering: (Did Abel find a dead sheep here to offer?)

Quoting you: Never want them to be in Heaven? I beg to differ on that, but that's just my opinion... Humans kill what they do not understand. We kill those which deserve life. Sharks are being hunted to extinction, and that's not fair in my book. Just isn't. In case you haven't recognized it, I subscribe to Irwin's philosophy with animals, do no harm, do not kill any living thing.

Exodus 29:11 And thou shalt kill the bullock before the LORD, by the door of the tabernacle of the congregation.

Leviticus 1:5 And he shall kill the bullock before the LORD: and the priests, Aaron's sons, shall bring the blood, and sprinkle the blood round about upon the altar that is by the door of the tabernacle of the congregation.

Leviticus 4:4 And he shall bring the bullock unto the door of the tabernacle of the congregation before the LORD; and shall lay his hand upon the bullock's head, and kill the bullock before the LORD.

Leviticus 4:15 And the elders of the congregation shall lay their hands upon the head of the bullock before the LORD: and the bullock shall be killed before the LORD.

[Crikey Cheetah]

First, what is a bullock??

Second, God may have told us to kill animals for clothing and nutrition, I'll give you that, as even the Native Americans did this. But he difference is they respected those animals they killed, and used EVERY SINGLE Part of the animal. I'm saying no killing, but if you must advocate hunting, advocate WISE hunting, and make an attempt to use the entire animal. Ever heard the phrase "Take only what you need to survive"?

I advocate not killing animals where we have perfectly good food in vegetation. We have more than enough food to feed thousands in Africa and we eat animals AND plants? Ever heard of Tofu? I don't eat meat out of respect for God's creatures, God's creation.

Let me pose a question to you: you're on a deserted Island, with trees, bushes, Vegetables, Gardens, squash, and banana trees. There's even a bunch of chikens running around. A trail running through the Island, no one else lives there, and one day, there's a turtle in the middle of this road, blocking the path. What would you do:

A) Wait for it to move
B) Pick it up, move it on its way
C) Kill it
D) Sit on it

Answer me this. Since there IS PLENTY of food on this Island, there is no real need to kill the turtle. There is also no way around the turtle, so you could move it, but it's probably too heavy. Waiting for it to move off the trail seems to be the best course of action since there is food. Most people Wouldn't kill it! It's stupid.

[Crikey Cheetah]

"The Righteous Man Cares for the needs of his animal." Proverbs 12:10

In the story of David and Bathsheba, God sends the prophet (Nathan?) to David to tell a story. The prophet says to David that a poor man had taken a lamb into his home and loved it like his own son, and his wealthy neighbor took the lamb and slaughtered it for a meal for his guest. David's response was immediate, passionate, wrathful, and very telling of God's heart. Never once did David ridicule the poor man for foolishly loving a lamb so much. He said the wealthy man should die!! This tells me that God values our love for His creatures very much. It is nothing to be thrown away.

Now it is obvious that some sons of Adam and daughters of Eve were created with a special, stronger love and heart for animals than many. I believe this is often genetic--not always though. I know that my entire family (my immediate family) is one such family. Our love for animals is so strong, our bond with our pets so deep, that honestly I am not sure I could be complete in Eternity without reunion with those creatures that have been such a vital part of my life and character. And for people like me, I believe this trait is built into us by our Creator for a special purpose. If we were to spend Eternity forever parted from those animals, God would have to wipe all memory of them from us, in order for us to truly be joyous. One problem with that: These are so closely linked to us that they helped to make us who we are. Thus God would be effectively changing who He made us to be. This goes against His character.

Perhaps I am overanalyzing this, and I know that this is not entirely scriptural, but I think it is convincing enough reason for me to believe that I will have a veritable zoo of beloveds waiting for me to romp through the Streets of Gold with them. This would be utterly delightful to me, and I know it would please my Heavenly Father to see such delight in His children. There is no Harm in The Creator restoring the life of those animals that the faithful love and care for.

[StevenPriscilla]

Perhaps I am overanalyzing this, and I know that this is not entirely scriptural, but I think it is convincing enough reason for me to believe that I will have a veritable zoo of beloveds waiting for me to romp through the Streets of Gold with them. This would be utterly delightful to me, and I know it would please my Heavenly Father to see such delight in His children. There is no Harm in The Creator restoring the life of those animals that the faithful love and care for.


Well i don't think you will even remember those animals when you see heaven. God said all things old will pass away and behold all things will be made new. You will be known as you were known on earth but you will not remember those who are not there. Why? There will be no sorry and no tears for those that did not make it. So, your memory will be wiped clean.

All i know is that i'm not worried about seeing animals in heaven. I'm worried about seeing my loved ones saved and seeing the face of my father. There will be nothing greater that to rejoice with the saints of God forever and ever. Maybe you should think about worrying about that first too. But it's your walk. God Bless You!!!!!-Steve:)

[Crikey Cheetah]

Still though... God is OBVIOUSLY leading me to caring for animals. Even though I may not see them in heaven, He has told me that we should care for these animals. And you haven't negated it yet, only provided evidence that He may wipe our memories, but I doubt this.

[pop james]

"STILL THOUGH".............the proclamation of one NOT heeding the word of GOD and in a sense disagreeing with the MASTER.....

Crikey........I understand your passion for animal rights.....I myself am a vegetarian...have been for over 30 years......my wife is a animal rights activist....has been for over 40 years.....together we live in a home in a forest bordering a national park and surrounded by a protected wildlife area.....(by choice I might add). We have 3 cats....We feed each day, racoons, fox, a host of birds, and constantly have herds of deer in our yard.....my wife has trained(believe it or not) our cats NOT to kill mice...they bring them to us and we take them out of their mouths and return them out doors....over the years we never supported hunitng animals.....Crikey I tell you all that to tell you this......We can care for animals, we can love them, protect them, and encourage others to also. But, lets not ignore what the scriptures point to considering them having souls. We can love them on earth but should not expect to take them with us to heaven....................regards.......Pop

[Crikey Cheetah]

Okay, that makes sense. My father happens to be a follower of the Dao, and has also passed on some of this wisdom to myself and my family, but of course, they don't believe in Heaven, but Reincarnation. The only reason I reject that is because of the reincarnation thing. Other than this, and Daoism believing in "higher power", I see no difference in the two. The arguement makes sense from your point, but I'd like you to understand where I'm coming from. My family has always taught me to care for other living beings, yet they did not wish to press their faith on me. In fact, Daoism expressly forbids pressuring others to believe their POV.

But they did raise me not to kill, not to have sex before marriage, not to do XYZ... It wasn't stuffed down my throat, but it was taught informally for the most part. I've had multiple conversations with my dad, and from my own experience, I've come to conclusions on this issue. I won't say the Bible is wrong, nor will I say Daoism is wrong. I'm simply thinking intellectually on this issue. I thank you for your input.

I only wish to understand what the Bible says on this, simply for the sake of understanding and knowing it. I suppose I'll never make a clear decision on it. But there have always been qualities, especially that I see in my own dog, that negate a lot of known things. She's very smart, and is Obviously intelligent, surely you can also see this in cats. I won't deny they have souls, but I will agree that perhaps they won't be in heaven. If having intelligence and emotion is the basis for having a soul, dogs certainly qualify, but what is YOUR definition for having a soul?

This is another question entirely.. so I'll post it on the other board. This is getting too long...