SEMPER IDEM..........Always the same [Archive]

pop james

10-20-2006, 03:55 PM

Recently read a post that claimed that Prayer can change GODs mind....this should disturb any true believer to the point of distraction as it did yours truly....so.....I must respond.

I ask you. How awful would it be for the believer to pray to a god that changed his mind at each suggestion and bidding?......What would cause one to change his mind about any particular subject or plan?.......Well......the lack of forseight in order to anticipate future circumstances and or the lack of power or ability to carry out that which has been planned or forseen pops into my mind (pardon the pun).

Brothers and Sisters......GOD is immutable....He will never /can never change.
HE is a Rock that can never be moved (deut 32:4) as a mattter of fact everything/all HE is today , He has ever been and shall be. "I AM the LORD, I change not" (mal 3:6)....

Luthur got it right ...he wrote....." Prayer is not overcoming GODs reluctance, but laying hold of HIS willingness". How true....think about it......when we accept the theory of GOD changing HIS mind due to our prayers we leave ourselves open to lesser understanding of GOD Himself.

When we pray we honor GOD....we worship GOD....we glorify HIM....HE did not tell us to pray so HE can change HIS mind brethren......Prayer is for our spiritual blessing..our very important growth in GRACE, and to excercise our faith in HIM.....GOD tells us to pray (1thes 5:17and luke 18:1) So prayer could never be meaningless........just the opposite.....A.W. Pink said this and he is exactly right....."GOD has decreed the means as well as the end, and among the means is prayer".

I guess in closing I just want say, Our will is subject to HIS, not the other way around......So, I must join with the Saviour in saying....."Not my will but Thine be done......................................regards. .......Pop

Rufus

10-20-2006, 04:57 PM

Recently read a post that claimed that Prayer can change GODs mind....this should disturb any true believer to the point of distraction as it did yours truly....so.....I must respond.

1993 - Waco - 80+ dead - 1 small complex destroyed
1995 - OkC - 168 - 1 high rise destroyed
2001 - New York 9/11 - 3,000+ - 3 high rises destroyed
2005 - New Orleans - 1,800+ - 1 city destroyed

The above are specific increasing judgments that are being passed on America. More general examples can be seen in homicide and suicide rates, an invasion of aliens (not the space kind), drug addictions, sexual addictions, poverty, gov't oppression, death of our sons and daughters in war and restriction of liberty. All of these items are examples of God's judgment being passed upon a people and these judgments will increase until there is repentance or until this country is destroyed.

The below verse describes judgment...
"If I shut up heaven that there be no rain, or if I command the locusts to devour the land, or if I send pestilence among my people;" - 2 Chronicles 7:13

The below verse describes how God desire's His people to respond to this judgment...

"If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways;" - 2 Chronicles 7:14a

If His people will stop being so prideful and if His people will pray, seek Him and repent of their sins, then God will repent of this judgment.

"then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land." - 2 Chronicles 7:14b

If they go on in their wicked ways then He will not heal the land and the inhabitants of that land will be destroyed.

Believing that prayer has no power to persuade God to answer the prayer, will render prayer powerless.

"Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much." - James 5:16

Wendell

10-20-2006, 07:12 PM

Well said, pop...amen...

blue..

allthingspure

10-20-2006, 07:29 PM

Recently read a post that claimed that Prayer can change GODs mind....this should disturb any true believer to the point of distraction as it did yours truly....so.....I must respond.

Sincere prayer can change Gods mind,:) There are many examples in His word.
Just to give one....Read Isaiah 38...a brief example ...Hezekiah was sick unto death. God sent Isaiah the prophet to him saying, thus saith the Lord, Set thine house in order: for thou shalt die and not live.
V.2 > Hezekiah turned his face toward the wall, and prayed unto the Lord.verse 4 & 5> God told Isaiah to Go, and say unto Hezekiah, Thus saith the Lord, the God of David thy father, I have heard thy prayer, I have seen thy tears: behold, I will add unto thy days fifteen years.
Prayer changed Gods mind:)

I ask you. How awful would it be for the believer to pray to a god that changed his mind at each suggestion and bidding?......What would cause one to change his mind about any particular subject or plan?.......Well......the lack of forseight in order to anticipate future circumstances and or the lack of power or ability to carry out that which has been planned or forseen pops into my mind (pardon the pun).

I have a Great and Mighty God, He is the only wise God and He does not change His mind at each suggestion.
What cased God to change His mind about Hezekiah? Because he prayed out of a sincere heart, and because he was broken and contrite before the Lord.
A broken heart and a contrite heart God will not turn away.

Brothers and Sisters......GOD is immutable....He will never /can never change.
HE is a Rock that can never be moved (deut 32:4) as a mattter of fact everything/all HE is today , He has ever been and shall be. "I AM the LORD, I change not" (mal 3:6)....

It is true that God is the same yesterday, today and forever. Who and what He is will never change.
But that does not mean He is cannot or will not change His mind.

Oh by the way read the book of Jonah....there you will find another example of the never changing God who actually changed His mind about destroying the city.
God Bless

allthingspure

DanV aka FreetoloveGod

10-20-2006, 07:33 PM

1993 - Waco - 80+ dead - 1 small complex destroyed
1995 - OkC - 168 - 1 high rise destroyed
2001 - New York 9/11 - 3,000+ - 3 high rises destroyed
2005 - New Orleans - 1,800+ - 1 city destroyed

The above are specific increasing judgments that are being passed on America. More general examples can be seen in homicide and suicide rates, an invasion of aliens (not the space kind), drug addictions, sexual addictions, poverty, gov't oppression, death of our sons and daughters in war and restriction of liberty. All of these items are examples of God's judgment being passed upon a people and these judgments will increase until there is repentance or until this country is destroyed.

The below verse describes judgment...
"If I shut up heaven that there be no rain, or if I command the locusts to devour the land, or if I send pestilence among my people;" - 2 Chronicles 7:13

The below verse describes how God desire's His people to respond to this judgment...

"If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways;" - 2 Chronicles 7:14a

If His people will stop being so prideful and if His people will pray, seek Him and repent of their sins, then God will repent of this judgment.

"then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land." - 2 Chronicles 7:14b

If they go on in their wicked ways then He will not heal the land and the inhabitants of that land will be destroyed.

Believing that prayer has no power to persuade God to answer the prayer, will render prayer powerless.

"Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much." - James 5:16

Excellent! I could have never said it better myself!

God Bless.

CanadianChristian

10-20-2006, 09:15 PM

I agree this is a fantastic post. You are very well versed Rufus, and you serve God well. God Bless.

pop james

10-20-2006, 09:39 PM

DanV aka FreetoloveGod

10-20-2006, 10:23 PM

Consider these passages:

James 5:17-18: "Elijah was a man with a nature like ours, and he prayed earnestly that if it would not rain; and it did not rain on the land for three years and six months. And he prayed again, and the heavens gave rain, and the earth produced fruit."

Could it be that God "changed" his mind from allowing normal rain on the land, whatever "normal" rain was in that day, to changing His mind and stopping rain "for three years and six months," simply because Elijah prayed?

Then it tells us that God "changed" his mind again by allowing it to rain, after "he [Elijah] prayed."

That passage also tells me that had Elijah not prayed, God would have done nothing to either allow or stop the rain. He [God] would have just let the rain come down or not come down in the normal sequence of things.

Now, we see, in James 5:13-15, where God is changing his mind to meet specific needs, as prayer was made for the sick and suffering. Why do I say "changed his mind"? As long as there were no prayer for the sick and suffering everything would have remained status quo. However, as soon as "the elders of the church" anointed "the sick and suffering" with oil and prayed, the status quo of those sick and suffering changed and they were healed, because "The effective, fervent prayer of a righteousness man avails much.

I like that word "avails" as used here, because it seems to mean that the "prayer of faith "forced" the hand of God to heal. God must honor His Word; and His Word says, "I am the Lord that heals you."

There are many more passages to confirm that God will change His mind when we pray.

God Bless.

allthingspure

10-20-2006, 10:27 PM

Sure..you can present scripture that reads in a way that it seems to mans thinking that GOD repented and changed
I did not present scripture that said that God changed, but that He changed His mind, and repented of the evil He thought to do.
So you do not agree that the scriptures that I presented actually ment what they said? That God did not actually change His mind? Well then please explain why and how the Old Testament stories do not actually mean what they says.

but the glorious truth is as I mentioned before....GODs will is not changed by prayer but is ACCOMPLISHED to fulfill HIS divine purpose.
I believe your earlier statment was > Recently read a post that claimed that Prayer can change GODs mind....this should disturb any true believer to the point of distraction as it did yours truly....so.....I must respond.

We were discussing the fact that prayer can change God mind, not Prayer changing Gods will.
You seemed to have suddenly changed the topic.

I believe we all agree that God, (who He is and what He is) will never change.
Again Prayer can and will, at times, cause God to change His mind.

God Bless

allthingspure

LadyVi

10-20-2006, 10:36 PM

Very well stated! I agree completely.

LadyVi

10-20-2006, 10:40 PM

What a wonderful privilege! Thank you...great post!

pop james

10-20-2006, 11:07 PM

I used the word "YOU" collectively......was not singling out anyone in particular........

Im afraid that once again ......the truth of the matter has become lost in the shufffle.......the point is simply explained in these words......which, by the way as of yet NO one has addressed........Prayer does not change or alter GODs will but accomplishes HIS sovereign purpose........what is so hard about that?.....................regards......Pop

allthingspure

10-21-2006, 12:27 AM

Excuse me then Pop, my mystake,:)
I guess because you posted under my post, I assumed the 'you' was ment for me :)

allthingspure

Wendell

10-21-2006, 12:57 AM

...the truth of the matter has become lost in the shufffle..

The truth will never get lost pop...:-) It is a diamond shining in a pile of coal, just waiting for the right person to come along and recognize it....Our task is to be witnesses.. May God bless your efforts..

blue..

OneJoe

10-21-2006, 01:06 AM

brethren .....if you miss this, you are missing a blessing..........What a glorious GOD we have.....

A blessing indeed pop. Excellent posting of the truth. I have really enjoyed reading these as you present the truth of God and his word.

God Bless!

DanV aka FreetoloveGod

10-21-2006, 08:15 AM

Brethren, understand.........that prayer is designed NOT that GODs will may be changed but that HIS will may be accomplished in HIS time and HIS way.
Condider this......JESUS knew that certainly after HIS death and ressurection HE would be exalted by GOD...no argument there Im sure. BUT we read of HIM praying for that very thing. "O Father glorify me with Thine own self etc....john 17:5.......HE also knew that none of HIS would perish but yet HE prayed to the Father to keep them vs 11.......brethren .....if you miss this, you are missing a blessing..........What a glorious GOD we have.....

Sure..you can present scripture that reads in a way that it seems to mans thinking that GOD repented and changed but the glorious truth is as I mentioned before....GODs will is not changed by prayer but is ACCOMPLISHED to fulfill HIS divine purpose.....oh what a SAVIOUR!!!!!.........Pop

Seeing that we are philosophying, let me just say that God's will and His accomplishment of same, goes without contridiction. However, God does and has changed His mind, to wit., removing Adam and Eve from the Garden after they sinned [sounds like a change of mind], the Flood [changing His mind to destroy all flesh because of sin], Jonah in the big fish, etc., etc. There is numerous passages in the Bible telling of God doing something and then changing it to something else. That is exactly why He gave us a free will; so we can change our mind from going the way of eternal death, to the way of eternal life, as we look to the Cross and receive salvation by the blood of Jesus Christ.

As mentioned in another thread, prayer changes things and God is the one causing the change.

God Bless.

Rufus

10-21-2006, 09:15 AM

Repent - 2. To change the mind, or the course of conduct, on account of regret or dissatisfaction. (1913 Webster's)

"And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart. And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them. - Genesis 6:6-7
"And the LORD repented of the evil which he thought to do unto his people." - Exodus 32:14

"And when the LORD raised them up judges, then the LORD was with the judge, and delivered them out of the hand of their enemies all the days of the judge: for it repented the LORD because of their groanings by reason of them that oppressed them and vexed them." - Judges 2:18

"It repenteth me that I have set up Saul to be king: for he is turned back from following me, and hath not performed my commandments. And it grieved Samuel; and he cried unto the LORD all night." - 1 Samuel 15:13

"And when the angel stretched out his hand upon Jerusalem to destroy it, the LORD repented him of the evil, and said to the angel that destroyed the people, It is enough: stay now thine hand. And the angel of the LORD was by the threshingplace of Araunah the Jebusite." - 2 Samuel 24:16

"Return, O LORD, how long? and let it repent thee concerning thy servants." - Psalm 90:13

"For the LORD will judge his people, and he will repent himself concerning his servants." - Psalm 135:14

"Therefore now amend your ways and your doings, and obey the voice of the LORD your God; and the LORD will repent him of the evil that he hath pronounced against you." - Jeremiah 26:13

"And rend your heart, and not your garments, and turn unto the LORD your God: for he is gracious and merciful, slow to anger, and of great kindness, and repenteth him of the evil." - Joel 2:13

"The LORD repented for this: It shall not be, saith the LORD." - Amos 7:3

"The LORD repented for this: This also shall not be, saith the Lord GOD." - Amos 7:6

"And God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and God repented of the evil, that he had said that he would do unto them; and he did it not." - Jonah 3:10

OneJoe

10-21-2006, 09:27 AM

Allthingspure, you have spoken about the foreknowledge of God quite often have you not? Perhaps our prayers are not really changing his mind, but fulfilling what he planned before hand, thus it only appears to man God has changed something. God knows all before it occurs correct? Perhaps it is according to his will that his people pray to him about these matters and he had already willed the outcome. By praying to God, we are fulfilling what he had already set in motion. Our prayer is not changing his plans as it takes place, we are fulfilling his purpose from the beginning. Thus he does respond to our prayers according to his will. God has a plan for everything and it is taking place. We are not changing the setting or outcome. We are living out what he planned would happen. I don't know if that makes any sense to you, but I thought I would see if you understand that since you have mentioned God's foreknowledge so many times..:-)

God Bless!

OneJoe

10-21-2006, 09:29 AM

Hey, I thought we were supposed to let the bible define itself.. :cat

DanV aka FreetoloveGod

10-21-2006, 09:57 AM

Rufus

10-21-2006, 09:58 AM

Hey, I thought we were supposed to let the bible define itself.. :cat

Touche`. However, I was preparing for hearing that "repent" doesn't mean what the Bible says it does in the "original Hebrew":cat.

Wendell

10-21-2006, 11:35 AM

Mal 3:6 For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.

Job 23:13 But he is in one mind, and who can turn him? and what his soul desireth, even that he doeth.

God does not change, and he does not change his mind. You have presented yourself here as a teacher of the word, Dan; But if you are mistaken in such basic christian doctrines as the immutability of God, and the "ridiculous" idea that man has a will that is "free", then you must be suspect in all your other doctrines you hold as well. The idea of the free will of man is mans idea, and not Gods. God says man is dead in sin.. he is in bondage, and not free. You should start listening to what God says, rather than what your foolish pride is telling you...

here is what God says about man determining his own way..

Jer 10:23 O LORD, I know that the way of man is not in himself: it is not in man that walketh to direct his steps.

I agree with God...

blue

Wendell

10-21-2006, 12:07 PM

Interesting word, repent. I wonder if it means exactly the same thing when it is used in relation to a sinner as when it is used in relation to a holy, righteous, and perfect God.

When I repent, It means that I see my sin for what it is, in light of the scripture. And that sin I used to believe was "ok", now God in his mercy, changes my mind, bringing me in agreement with him, humbled before the Lord, he lifts me up and I walk in agreement with him in joyful newness of life.

But when God repents, it cant mean precisely the same thing. because God does not sin, and his actions one way or the other would be perfectly righteous and holy, just and good. It seems to me the pattern in these verses you have listed Rufus, demonstrates God revealing his will, in two ways. 1. he shows his justice. That sin will not be tolerated, and the wicked will be destroyed. 2. he shows his mercy, and grace. The fact that when he shows mercy it is completely undeserved and unmerited by those to whom he is being merciful.

In either case his will is immutable, it does not change, but demonstrates that God acts in every case in complete accordance with his own perfect will. As you present these verses, it can appear from mans perspective that God is changing his mind, ie. intending to do one thing, and then deciding to do something else, due to some outside influence. On the other hand it could also be that God revealed his will in one way, ie judgment,. to produce a desired responce on the part of his servant, so that he could reveal his will in another way, ie. grace.

you should add these verses to your list, and then harmonize them all together,

Num 23:19 God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?

1Sa 15:29 And also the Strength of Israel will not lie nor repent: for he is not a man, that he should repent.

Psa 110:4 The LORD hath sworn, and will not repent, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchizedek.

Jer 4:28 For this shall the earth mourn, and the heavens above be black: because I have spoken it, I have purposed it, and will not repent, neither will I turn back from it.

Eze 24:14 I the LORD have spoken it: it shall come to pass, and I will do it; I will not go back, neither will I spare, neither will I repent; according to thy ways, and according to thy doings, shall they judge thee, saith the Lord GOD.

This same Idea of God repenting, is evident in the over all plan of salvation, established from before the foundation of the world. The entire human race deserved judgment, the wrath of God, death. God was perfectly just in carrying out such a sentence upon all mankind. But such was not his will, for from before the foundation of the world, he had provided the lamb, slain for his people. those chosen in him. Even then, Gods immutable purpose was displayed in those two faces. One of Gods justice, and the other of his grace. Both grace and justice will be on display for all eternity, to the glory and praise of God our saviour. They are not examples of God changing his mind back and forth, but rather the fulfillment of his unchanging purpose and will... He does not change... for which I am eternally grateful...

blue

Rufus

10-21-2006, 12:11 PM

Mal 3:6 For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.

God Himself does not change. He will never lie, He will never falter, never forsake us, he will never possess a morsel of evil. He is immutable, He will not change.

However, man does change and God's responses to the mutability of man does change. If man acts wickedly God will bring judgment, if man repents of his wickedness, God will repent of His judgment.

God does not change, and he does not change his mind. God does not change but he does change responses to man according to man's change in heart and behavior. Examples of this in the Bible are many.

You have presented yourself here as a teacher of the word, Dan; But if you are mistaken in such basic christian doctrines as the immutability of God, and the "ridiculous" idea that man has a will that is "free", then you must be suspect in all your other doctrines you hold as well. Wow :-O What a motivating, intellectual argument to call a Christian's theological beliefs "ridiculous". If you can't dissuade with content then start lobbing names eh?

The idea of the free will of man is mans idea, and not Gods. God says man is dead in sin.. he is in bondage, and not free. You should start listening to what God says, rather than what your foolish pride is telling you... I suspect foolish pride is in abundance here of recent and Dan doesn't have a monopoly on it.

Wendell

10-21-2006, 12:18 PM

Again, excellent Scripture, not only showing God's change in action, but also a respect for our free will choices.

God respects our free will choices?? this is what he says about our free will choices..

Rom 3:12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
Gen 6:5 And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.
Jer 17:9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?

What kind of a Holy and Righteous God would have "respect", for socalled freewill actions produced by those described by God above.??

In other words, according to the quoted Scripture above, our sovereign God continuously made a distinctive or radical transmutation and replaced it with something else or something new or something better.

you contradict yourself dan... first you say it is free will, and then you say it is God, working outside of man, making the man something different from what he was. which is it? contrary to what recycled, and others say....you cant have it both ways.

What amazes me most of all, is that God is so concerned about our needs and is so full of Love for His children, that He would change His mind. We, in turn, should be so contrite over our sins as to change or decide to change, our way.

God says it cant be done by us..

Jer 10:23 O LORD, I know that the way of man is not in himself: it is not in man that walketh to direct his steps.

I agree with God..:-)

blue

allthingspure

10-21-2006, 01:25 PM

Allthingspure, you have spoken about the foreknowledge of God quite often have you not?
Yep sure have.:)
Perhaps our prayers are not really changing his mind, but fulfilling what he planned before hand, thus it only appears to man God has changed something.
Speculation......So you speculate that it was Gods will for the children of Israel to sin again Him and make Him angry enough to destory them all,
just so that He could get Moses to make intersession for the people? I think not.
God knows all before it occurs correct? Perhaps it is according to his will that his people pray to him about these matters
yep :) sure does
he had already willed the outcome
Don't believe I've read anything about Him willing the outcome.
By praying to God, we are fulfilling what he had already set in motion. Our prayer is not changing his plans as it takes place, we are fulfilling his purpose from the beginning.
By praying we are doing as we are told to do.
I believe the subject is prayer changing Gods mind, not His plan.
I thought you didn't believe that we have could fulfil Gods purpose, that He does everything by Himself.
Thus he does respond to our prayers according to his will.
Yes ....
We are not changing the setting or outcome.
Moses converation with Gods changed the outcome, As did many others.
We are living out what he planned would happen.
No ..... I don't God did not plan out that man would sin, but He knew we would therefore He made a way of escape.

I have noticed that no one actually accepts the examples from Gods word that were given concerning the fact that God can and will change His mind, and that His decisions can be influenced by peoples prayer.
No one has disputed the fact that God Himself does not change. He is who and what He is. It seems as tho some try to avoid the examples in the Word that prove that prayer changes things, by going around those scriptures and changing the subject and focus....

God bless ya

allthingspure

Brucea

10-21-2006, 02:36 PM

Hey, I thought we were supposed to let the bible define itself.. :cat
Nice to see you write this OneJoe. Go for it, practice it!
Quit redefining "World", quit redefining "whosoever", and quit redefining It is not God's will that "any" should perish but all should come to repentance in 2 Peter 2:9, or redefining 1 Timothy 2:1 "Therefore I exhort first of all that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks be made for all men, 2 for kings and all who are in authority, that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and reverence. 3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, 4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.", it is God's desire to save all men to be saved, and quit declaring that Hebrews 6:4-11 is an empty warning that a believer could fall away and not be renewed, because you say it is not even possible.

As I have pointed out in other threads this is how false doctrines are built.

The JW's use this same method to prove that Jesus is not God.

Other Christians use this same method to prove you can not have your sins taken away until water baptism with the words "in the name of Jesus" spoken over you has taken place.

Tho it is a different subject matter the methods applied to prove a point of doctrine are the same.

Redifining the Greek word by leaving out part of the definition or rewriting verse to make it look like it lines up with your point of view is a very slippery slope.

Bruce A.

Wendell

10-21-2006, 03:43 PM

pop james

10-21-2006, 04:08 PM

AMEN..........brother, thats why, though we meet much opposition, We MUST preach the Sovereignty of GOD in salvation....Pop

DanV aka FreetoloveGod

10-21-2006, 05:46 PM

Wow What a motivating, intellectual argument to call a Christian's theological beliefs "ridiculous". If you can't dissuade with content then start lobbing names eh?

Rufus. did I call someone a name..:-) I think not. I have pretty much sat silently for the last month or so and let many speak of the glories of mans free will. Again and again, people blurt out the idea that natural mans will is free to choose for Christ, as if it is an axiom, beyond doubt. Nothing could be further from the truth. Such an idea is found nowhere in the bible except by presuming free will is true and then picking out verses that seem to support that presupposition. God clearly declares that mans will is not free, and that mans will is incapable of turning to christ. The idea of free will IS a ridiculous idea, and without question contradicts plain and clear statements made by God himself. So who is the truthteller here. God or man?.. I believe God.

Call me ridiculous if you may, and from this post and others, it has already been done or inferred, [SEE BELOW] but I would rather have a "free-will" so I can LOVE GOD and not sit back and make comments on how God controls our will and we are just robot-believers.

If the "natural man" does not have the "free-will" to choose Christ, then how does this natual man become a "spiritual man?"

The natural man may not understand the spiritual things written in the Word of God, but, his natural reasoning tells him that there is a better way. Then, with his natural "free-will" he starts reading the Word of God and with the help of the Holy Spirit, his eyes are opened and with his mouth he confesses Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father.

It is a mystery of how this all takes place, however, it seems to start with the free-will of man to want a better way.

Did God force you to be saved, therefore bypassing your will, or how did it happen? Anyone?

[QUOTE]
I suspect foolish pride is in abundance here of recent and Dan doesn't have a monopoly on it.

Yes rufus, foolish pride is to be found in abundance, whereever false gospels are found. Satan is the originator of the doctrine of free will, when he tried to make himself equal with God, and he has passed this mindset down to his children, who happily parrot his message. It is satan who says... I will, I will..

I have been on Forums where if a "member" made remarks such as "rediculous" or personal attacks, i.e, "false pride" and "false gospels" and inferring that someone is a "child of satan" as made above, they would have been banned.

Everyone has an inherent right to utilize their free-will; whether a sinner or saint. The inherent right as a child of God is a blessing, in that you have a spiritual guidance in using this free-will. Whereas sinners uses their free-will helter skelter.

Isa 14:12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!
Isa 14:13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:
Isa 14:14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.
Isa 14:15 Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.

Satans gospel, is free will... The true gospel is God will. Many will insist that they will have their own way.. that they will choose God, that they will make the decision. that they will raise themselves up to accept God, by an act of their sovreign will. They share both satans gospel and his fate... they will be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit. All the time fully believing they have been saved because their will acted savingly.

Scriptures call Satan "the enemy" "The evil one" "The prince of this world" "the father of lies" "a murderer." and much, much more. He does not have a "gospel" = good news. He is the "dragon" "devil" "Old Serpent" in Revelation. And his final doom is the lake of fire.

It is ludicrous to infer anyone professing to be a Christian aligns him or herself with the so-called "gospel" of Satan, and then further insinuating that they fall into the category of the lost because they believe in a free-will and free-choice, has gone beyond discussion and debate, and is blasphemous.

As always it is God himself who says it the most clearly.

Joh 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
Joh 1:13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

blue

Absolutely nothing to do with free-will. John is referring to John the Baptist description of the coming Messiah, Jesus Christ, The True Light of the World and those who are born-again.

John 1:12-13, "But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name: who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

God Bless.

Recycled

10-21-2006, 06:34 PM

Blue, in your own words, you said...
As always it is God himself who says it the most clearly.

Joh 1:12-13 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

I have reviewed the Greek Lexicon found on the Blue Letter Bible website and these key words have lengthy definitions, so I will summarize them here; John 1:12 is pretty clear, in light of the Lexicon...

I have learned so much in the discussions I have engaged in on this website, in spite of the disagreements. I have been compelled to delve ever deeper into the Word and I have not only enjoyed the quest, but my learning has been vastly improved as a result.

I'm not going to dispute you in this matter. I will go on with my own education.

Kindest regards,

Recycled

OneJoe

10-21-2006, 06:50 PM

Nice to see you write this OneJoe. Go for it, practice it!
Quit redefining "World", quit redefining "whosoever", and quit redefining It is not God's will that "any" should perish but all should come to repentance in 2 Peter 2:9, or redefining 1 Timothy 2:1 "Therefore I exhort first of all that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks be made for all men, 2 for kings and all who are in authority, that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and reverence. 3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, 4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.", it is God's desire to save all men to be saved, and quit declaring that Hebrews 6:4-11 is an empty warning that a believer could fall away and not be renewed, because you say it is not even possible. Maybe when you done saying i'm wrong and trying to give directions you'll actually try to correct someone. You make statements of what you claim is true, but you don't support or offer correction to those you claim are wrong. My intentions on this board have been to offer my views. I don't mind when someone disagrees, but what I do mind is when those who make such claims don't support it scripturally. What I do mind is when someone concentrates more on directing their message at me rather than my message. You can't refute what I am saying so you focus on the messanger. This is often the case with those who can't offer a biblical reason why they believe as they do. Once again you said i'm wrong in regard to those passages, but you have offered no correction. You claim your right, but don't explain how without it contradicting other scriptures. Bruce, when you get over this spell of yours, can we get back to the topic at hand rather than sticking to "I'm right your wrong". It is so easy to make claims when not using the bible isn't it.:-)

BTW, perhaps you should take another look at what define actually means. "Any", "whosoever", "all"...in each of these cases I have not defined the actual word. I have stated any referrs to the elect, whosoever referrs to the elect, and all also referrs to the elect. To redefine "All" would cause it to have a meaning which doesn't fit the context of scripture. In each case I have stated on this board, I said these words were referring to God's chosen people, ofen the case would be the saints being spoken to. If you don't like this view, reprove it.

OneJoe

10-21-2006, 07:05 PM

No, it means exactly what it says. Though I wouldn't agree with the purpose or intentions of prayer. You have showed many scriptures in regard to repenting and done a fine job of it, but like I said, I don't agree the purpose of those prayers were to actually change his mind but to fulfill what he had aforehand planned would occur. The idea things are blindly playing out and his will changes at the drop of a hat is not a comforting thought.

Wendell

10-21-2006, 07:34 PM

Call me ridiculous if you may,

I did not call you ridiculous... I called your doctrine ridiculous. I still do.

If the "natural man" does not have the "free-will" to choose Christ, then how does this natual man become a "spiritual man?"

By being raised to life by an unilateral act of the sovreign will of God. Its called being "born again".

The natural man may not understand the spiritual things written in the Word of God, but, his natural reasoning tells him that there is a better way. Then, with his natural "free-will" he starts reading the Word of God and with the help of the Holy Spirit, his eyes are opened and with his mouth he confesses Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father.

It is a mystery of how this all takes place, however, it seems to start with the free-will of man to want a better way.

It is only mysterious to you. The scripture explains the process quite clearly. and I have never heard free will mentioned in that explanation.

I have been on Forums where if a "member" made remarks such as "rediculous" or personal attacks, i.e, "false pride" and "false gospels" and inferring that someone is a "child of satan" as made above, they would have been banned

I do not believe I have been rude or called people names... I have simply stated the once commonly held position of historical christianity. Free will is a false gospel...Natural man is dead in tresspasses and sin... he is spiritually dead.. How can a spiritually dead corpse, will itself alive?

Everyone has an inherent right to utilize their free-will; whether a sinner or saint. The inherent right as a child of God is a blessing, in that you have a spiritual guidance in using this free-will. Whereas sinners uses their free-will helter skelter.

As usual, axiomatic statements without any biblical evidence to establish it whatsoever.

Scriptures call Satan "the enemy" "The evil one" "The prince of this world" "the father of lies" "a murderer." and much, much more. He does not have a "gospel" = good news. He is the "dragon" "devil" "Old Serpent" in Revelation. And his final doom is the lake of fire.

It is ludicrous to infer anyone professing to be a Christian aligns him or herself with the so-called "gospel" of Satan, and then further insinuating that they fall into the category of the lost because they believe in a free-will and free-choice, has gone beyond discussion and debate, and is blasphemous.

Jesus spoke repeatedly to the pharisees and saducees. For all practical purposes they called themselves christians, and Jesus made it very clear that they were children of the devil.

Here he says it again..another way.

2Co 11:13 For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.
2Co 11:14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.
2Co 11:15 Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.

Joh 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
Joh 1:13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

This verse absolutely has everything to do with the will of man.. "free will" as you call it. It describes those who are born again, and explains HOW that new birth takes place. It clearly states that they are "born", NOT, by the will of the flesh, and NOT, by the will of man. Instead they are born of God.

Free will is a ridiculous doctrine, and as you have said, a blasphemous one; For it makes God a liar.

blue

Wendell

10-21-2006, 07:53 PM

Joh 1:12-13 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

It always interests me to note that people emphasize the first part, and ignore the second..

But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

This describes the receiving of christ, and the power God gave to them so they could believe. This power was necessary for them because before, they were dead in sin... They could not believe before they received power from on high. Then God describes the origin of this strength or power or ability to believe.

Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

The receiving of power, is referred to as being born. and how were they born? of blood? No. Of the will of the flesh? or the strength found in the physical body. No. Were they born of the will of man? Is there any kind of will found naturally in man that was the originator of that new birth? The answer is clear..No. So then how were they born, From where did they receive this spiritual power, that enabled them to believe? "But OF GOD."

Gods word is crystal clear... The will of man does not contribute to his salvation. His salvation is a gift from God. Man is a passive recipient, of Gods tender mercy given to whom he will...

Rom 9:15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.

Rom 9:18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.

Hear is the plea of the publican as he stood before God a sinner..

Luk 18:13 And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.

and again.

Psa 109:26 Help me, O LORD my God: O save me according to thy mercy:

blue

DanV aka FreetoloveGod

10-21-2006, 08:52 PM

This is my last post.

Call me ridiculous if you may,

I did not call you ridiculous... I called your doctrine ridiculous. I still do.

That is your free-will chose, right or wrong.

If the "natural man" does not have the "free-will" to choose Christ, then how does this natual man become a "spiritual man?"

By being raised to life by an unilateral act of the sovreign will of God. Its called being "born again".

"unilateral act"? What chapter and verse talks about that? Is that where God just makes us "born-again" without any effort on our own? I guess we can just close the Bible, lock up the churches and wait for this "unilateral act" performed by God. Even Jesus said that being "born-again" is like "the wind blowing and you have no idea where the wind comes from and where it is going."

The natural man may not understand the spiritual things written in the Word of God, but, his natural reasoning tells him that there is a better way. Then, with his natural "free-will" he starts reading the Word of God and with the help of the Holy Spirit, his eyes are opened and with his mouth he confesses Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father.

It is a mystery of how this all takes place, however, it seems to start with the free-will of man to want a better way.

It is only mysterious to you. The scripture explains the process quite clearly. and I have never heard free will mentioned in that explanation.

so the process is a "unilateral act" mystery solved.

I have been on Forums where if a "member" made remarks such as "rediculous" or personal attacks, i.e, "false pride" and "false gospels" and inferring that someone is a "child of satan" as made above, they would have been banned

I do not believe I have been rude or called people names... I have simply stated the once commonly held position of historical christianity. Free will is a false gospel...Natural man is dead in tresspasses and sin... he is spiritually dead.. How can a spiritually dead corpse, will itself alive?

He doesn't "will" he reads the Word of God then he receives the faith to believe, then he confesses that new-found belief to God; because "faith comes by hearing and reading the word of God."

Everyone has an inherent right to utilize their free-will; whether a sinner or saint. The inherent right as a child of God is a blessing, in that you have a spiritual guidance in using this free-will. Whereas sinners uses their free-will helter skelter.

As usual, axiomatic statements without any biblical evidence to establish it whatsoever.

As I have mentioned numerous times before, the Holy Spirit is your guide and help as you exercise your free-will. Where is the phrase "unilateral act" in the Bible?

Scriptures call Satan "the enemy" "The evil one" "The prince of this world" "the father of lies" "a murderer." and much, much more. He does not have a "gospel" = good news. He is the "dragon" "devil" "Old Serpent" in Revelation. And his final doom is the lake of fire.

It is ludicrous to infer anyone professing to be a Christian aligns him or herself with the so-called "gospel" of Satan, and then further insinuating that they fall into the category of the lost because they believe in a free-will and free-choice, has gone beyond discussion and debate, and is blasphemous.

Jesus spoke repeatedly to the pharisees and saducees. For all practical purposes they called themselves christians, and Jesus made it very clear that they were children of the devil.

Jesus called them a "Brood of Vipers" called themselves and they called themselves "Christian"???

Joh 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
Joh 1:13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

This verse absolutely has everything to do with the will of man.. "free will" as you call it. It describes those who are born again, and explains HOW that new birth takes place. It clearly states that they are "born", NOT, by the will of the flesh, and NOT, by the will of man. Instead they are born of God.

"Jesus was placed in Mary, a virgin, by the power of the Holy Spirit, not by a blood relation or any will of man, but by God. [how does this describe a born-again experience]?

"Joseph, son of David, do not be afraid to take you Mary your wife, for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Spirit..."

God Bless and it has bee very enlightening. I have learned much.

DanV

Wendell

10-21-2006, 09:25 PM

Joh 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
Joh 1:13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

"Jesus was placed in Mary, a virgin, by the power of the Holy Spirit, not by a blood relation or any will of man, but by God. [how does this describe a born-again experience]?

"Joseph, son of David, do not be afraid to take you Mary your wife, for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Spirit..."

What an ingenious way to explain away what is clearly being said in a passage, with something that has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with it....:-) How you ever got that idea about mary, out of John 1:12-13, is beyond me..lol

blue

Rufus

10-21-2006, 10:24 PM

How is satan the originator of the doctrine of free will according to your theology, when satan couldn't even have freewill to rebel? Since satan is just operating according to God's will are you saying that God is the originator of freewill?

Wendell

10-21-2006, 10:48 PM

Time out. How is satan the originator of the doctrine of free will according to your theology, when satan couldn't even have freewill to rebel? Since satan is just operating according to God's will are you not now saying that God is the originator of freewill?

yes rufus..:-) actually God is the originator of free will. He created adam with free will, and I suspect satan as well.. The fact that adam and satan had free will at one time, does not mean their descendants have it now.. There is the little matter of the fall. We are not adam, we are his fallen sons....

blue

AmericanInUk

10-23-2006, 09:12 AM

Elijah did not pray to God so that God woud change His mind. In the days of Elijah the sky or heaven gods were worshipped. Baal was the sky god. Elijah being a righteous man, and knowing the true God did not worship Baal. I Kings 17.immediately introduces Elijah as a Tishbite saying to Ahab,'' As the Lord the God of Israel lives, before whom I stand...''. He was standing before God when he stated, '' there will be no dew or rain these years, except by my word.'' God was communicating with Elijah about how he was going to show those wicked people who controls the rain. The contest on Mount Carmel began! Well, we all know who the true God is. Elijah even mocked the 450 false prophets by saying ,''...is Baal musing,asleep, may be he went on a journey or has gone aside..'',I King 26-28.

I Kings 36, Elijah states, '' ...and that I am thy servant and have done all these things at thy word. A servant, serves his master. A servant of God serves, according to His will. If the servants could change the will of God through prayer, an all knowing God, the Alpha and the Omega, the God of nature, the God of mercy, grace and peace, then that servant is no longer a servant. His/her status has been elevated to co-ruler.

In the Lord's prayer, there is a verse,''....thy will be done...'' not '' our will be done...'' We are not co-rulers. We are servants.God made us to worship Him. God did not create us to worship each other. If we could change God's mind imagine what would happen! One of the elect would claim to have a better ' prayer-line' to God than the other;and another would claim to be able to change God's mind more often, etc. There would be more sin and wickedness on the earth than what we have now.

I would not want to change God's plan for me. I have to trust the Lord to know what's best for me.I am His obediant servant. God the Father, God the Son and the Holy Spirit rule. Amen.

Rufus

10-23-2006, 09:29 AM

In the Lord's prayer, there is a verse,''....thy will be done...'' not '' our will be done...'' We are not co-rulers. We are servants.God made us to worship Him. God did not create us to worship each other. If we could change God's mind imagine what would happen! One of the elect would claim to have a better ' prayer-line' to God than the other;and another would claim to be able to change God's mind more often, etc. There would be more sin and wickedness on the earth than what we have now.

Here is the Lord Our God intending to consume the people of Israel and start over with Moses...
"And the LORD said unto Moses, I have seen this people, and, behold, it is a stiffnecked people: Now therefore let me alone, that my wrath may wax hot against them, and that I may consume them: and I will make of thee a great nation." - Exodus 32:9-10

Here is Moses beseeching the Lord and pleaing on behalf of the stiff-necked Israelites and asking God to "repent of this evil"...
"And Moses besought the LORD his God, and said, LORD, why doth thy wrath wax hot against thy people, which thou hast brought forth out of the land of Egypt with great power, and with a mighty hand? Wherefore should the Egyptians speak, and say, For mischief did he bring them out, to slay them in the mountains, and to consume them from the face of the earth? Turn from thy fierce wrath, and repent of this evil against thy people." - Exodus 32:11-12

Here's Moses making an argument and serving as an advocate for the Israelites...
"Remember Abraham, Isaac, and Israel, thy servants, to whom thou swarest by thine own self, and saidst unto them, I will multiply your seed as the stars of heaven, and all this land that I have spoken of will I give unto your seed, and they shall inherit it for ever. " - Exodus 32:13

And here is God repenting...
"And the LORD repented of the evil which he thought to do unto his people." - Exodus 32:14

I am grateful for a God that is so merciful that He will hear the prayer of a righteous man and will allow that righteous man's prayers to availeth much.

OneJoe

10-24-2006, 04:03 PM

Speculation......So you speculate that it was Gods will for the children of Israel to sin again Him and make Him angry enough to destory them all,
just so that He could get Moses to make intersession for the people? I think not.

No certainly not. It all depend on how you look at it. I never said it was God's will for them to sin against him. That would be like saying he tempted them and God does not do that. Though he does allow it. However, seeing as how God can see all things, it is not speculation to say God foresaw they would turn against him and willed that Moses would act on thier behalf so that his will would be carried out.

Just like God foresaw at one time he would give his only son as the propitation for our sins, which would inevitably allow us to be saved rather than condemned. God's will for the elect, from the foundation of the world, was not based upon whether or not Christ could change his Fathers mind. God had a plan to fulfill his purpose in the lives of his elect. The same applies to how Moses acted on behalf of Israel. God knew they would turn away and planned that Moses would stand on their behalf as Christ did ours. Christ didn't change his Fathers mind on condemning us, he was fulfilling the purposed plan from the beginning as was Moses.

Don't believe I've read anything about Him willing the outcome.

God has everything planned. We are not ants running around with an uncertain ending. God has everything timed according to his own will. All things are revealed and occur when the Father permits. I suppose if you believe that God doesn't already have everything willed and we can change his mind, then that would mean we could also change his mind on when this world ends? We can somehow postpone when he pours out his wrath upon the wicked? You can believe that if you like, but I will stick to believe the creator has a plan and time for everything. I believe in his divine will.

By praying we are doing as we are told to do.
I believe the subject is prayer changing Gods mind, not His plan.
I thought you didn't believe that we have could fulfil Gods purpose, that He does everything by Himself. Yes by praying we are obeying God. We pray that his will be done. And it is that prayer which fulfills his purpose. Also, the subject is about changing God's mind. But to change God's mind would mean you also changed his plan which he established from the beginning. That sets his plan or will at our disposal. That leaves his will to do whatever we desire to do with it. Also, I never said we couldn't fulfill God's purpose. Where did I say that? I do speak that an unsaved man can not go to God on his own without God first quickening him, but I do believe and speak that a saved man can serve God and seek only to do his will. A saved man can do this because God has given him a new will. He is born of the spirit and can now know the things of God. So yes, once a man is saved he can fulfill the purpose of God by praying, just as Moses did.

Moses converation with God changed the outcome, As did many others. But this doesn't refute the idea that God had willed the intervention of Moses and it was his purpose that Moses speak on their behalf. The result is God knew he would not end up destroying them. Thus, his will was fulfilled.

No ..... I don't God did not plan out that man would sin, but He knew we would therefore He made a way of escape.

Think about your statement for a moment. No God did not tempt them to sin, but he can see all things and knew they would sin. He knew what the result would be, but that was not what he desired for them so he planned that Moses would act on their behalf and thus fufill his reason for not destorying them.

I have noticed that no one actually accepts the examples from Gods word that were given concerning the fact that God can and will change His mind, and that His decisions can be influenced by peoples prayer.
No one has disputed the fact that God Himself does not change. He is who and what He is. It seems as tho some try to avoid the examples in the Word that prove that prayer changes things, by going around those scriptures and changing the subject and focus....

No one has changed the focus. What I have said has been solely on topic. No one has avoided scriptures either. Some just view those scriptures as God having a purpose and fulfilling it. While others view it as an event that blindly played out and God changed his mind because he didn't know beforehand what would happen to act accordingly. I for one believe nothing plays out that God didn't already plan, or allows, for his own purpose of fulfilling that plan.:)

godslove

10-24-2006, 05:31 PM

Repent- this argument over repent sparked my curiosity. So I did a verse check, it turns out that there are 3 words in Hebrew translated as repent, and 2 words in greek. So this might just be an argument that nobody can win because it may be two different things that we are talking about.. I listed strongs definitions. And the corresponding greek verses, but to list the Hebrew verses it would require 62 pages which I would believe to be 21 posts. Repent must be really important to God…if the moderators want me to post them I will, Lord willing. .God bless.

Repent- strongs Hebrew

05162. Mxn nacham naw-kham’; a primitive root; properly, to sigh, i.e. breathe strongly; by implication, to be sorry, i.e. (in a favorable sense) to pity, console or (reflexively) rue; or (unfavorably) to avenge (oneself):— comfort (self), ease [one’s self], repent(-er,-ing, self).

07725. bwv shuwb shoob; a primitive root; to turn back (hence, away) transitively or intransitively, literally or figuratively (not necessarily with the idea of return to the starting point); generally to retreat; often adverbial, again:— ([break, build, circumcise, dig, do anything, do evil, feed, lay down, lie down, lodge, make, rejoice, send, take, weep]) X again, (cause to) answer (+ again), X in any case (wise), X at all, averse, bring (again, back, home again), call [to mind], carry again (back), cease, X certainly, come again (back), X consider, + continually, convert, deliver (again), + deny, draw back, fetch home again, X fro, get [oneself] (back) again, X give (again), go again (back, home), [go] out, hinder, let, [see] more, X needs, be past, X pay, pervert, pull in again, put (again, up again), recall, recompense, recover, refresh, relieve, render (again), requite, rescue, restore, retrieve, (cause to, make to) return, reverse, reward, + say nay, send back, set again, slide back, still, X surely, take back (off), (cause to, make to) turn (again, self again, away, back, back again, backward, from, off), withdraw.

05164. Mxn nocham no’- kham; from 05162; ruefulness, i.e. desistance:— repentance.

Strongs greek- repent

3340. metanoew metanoeo met-an-o-eh’-o; from 3326 and 3539; to think differently or afterwards, i.e. reconsider (morally, feel compunction):— repent.
Mt 3:2 And saying, Repent ye <3340>: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.
Mt 4:17 From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent <3340>: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.
Mt 11:20 Then began he to upbraid the cities wherein most of his mighty works were done, because they repented <3340> not:
Mt 11:21 Woe unto thee, Chorazin! woe unto thee, Bethsaida! for if the mighty works, which were done in you, had been done in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented <3340> long ago in sackcloth and ashes.
Mt 12:41 The men of Nineveh shall rise in judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: because they repented <3340> at the preaching of Jonas; and, behold, a greater than Jonas is here.
Mr 1:15 And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye <3340>, and believe the gospel.
Mr 6:12 And they went out, and preached that men should repent <3340>.
Lu 10:13 Woe unto thee, Chorazin! woe unto thee, Bethsaida! for if the mighty works had been done in Tyre and Sidon, which have been done in you, they had <3340> a great while ago repented <3340>, sitting in sackcloth and ashes.
Lu 11:32 The men of Nineve shall rise up in the judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: for they repented <3340> at the preaching of Jonas; and, behold, a greater than Jonas is here.
Lu 13:3 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent <3340>, ye shall all likewise perish.
Lu 13:5 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent <3340>, ye shall all likewise perish.
Lu 15:7 I say unto you, that likewise joy shall be in heaven over one sinner that repenteth <3340>, more than over ninety and nine just persons, which need no repentance.
Lu 15:10 Likewise, I say unto you, there is joy in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner that repenteth <3340>.
Lu 16:30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent <3340>.
Lu 17:3 Take heed to yourselves: If thy brother trespass against thee, rebuke him; and if he repent <3340>, forgive him.
Lu 17:4 And if he trespass against thee seven times in a day, and seven times in a day turn again to thee, saying, I repent <3340>; thou shalt forgive him.
Ac 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent <3340>, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Ac 3:19 Repent ye <3340> therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;
Ac 8:22 Repent <3340> therefore of this thy wickedness, and pray God, if perhaps the thought of thine heart may be forgiven thee.
Ac 17:30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent <3340>:
Ac 26:20 But shewed first unto them of Damascus, and at Jerusalem, and throughout all the coasts of Judaea, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent <3340> and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance.
2Co 12:21 And lest, when I come again, my God will humble me among you, and that I shall bewail many which have sinned already, and have <3340> not repented <3340> of the uncleanness and fornication and lasciviousness which they have committed.
Re 2:5 Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent <3340>, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent <3340>.
Re 2:16 Repent <3340>; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will fight against them with the sword of my mouth.
Re 2:21 And I gave her space to repent <3340> of her fornication; and she repented <3340> not.
Re 2:22 Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent <3340> of their deeds.
Re 3:3 Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent <3340>. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.
Re 3:19 As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent <3340>.
Re 9:20 And the rest of the men which were not killed by these plagues yet repented <3340> not of the works of their hands, that they should not worship devils, and idols of gold, and silver, and brass, and stone, and of wood: which neither can see, nor hear, nor walk:
Re 9:21 Neither repented they <3340> of their murders, nor of their sorceries, nor of their fornication, nor of their thefts.
Re 16:9 And men were scorched with great heat, and blasphemed the name of God, which hath power over these plagues: and they repented <3340> not to give him glory.
Re 16:11 And blasphemed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores, and repented <3340> not of their deeds.

278. ametamelhtov ametameletos am-et-am-el’-ay-tos; from 1 (as a negative particle) and a presumed derivative of 3338; irrevocable:— without repentance, not to be repented of.
Ro 11:29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance <278>.
2Co 7:10 For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of <278>: but the sorrow of the world worketh death.

godslove

10-24-2006, 06:57 PM

Repent- as it turns out now that i had time to study them that 07725.only has two verse that use the word repent so it won't be that bad...God bless

05162. Mxn nacham naw-kham’; a primitive root; properly, to sigh, i.e. breathe strongly; by implication, to be sorry, i.e. (in a favorable sense) to pity, console or (reflexively) rue; or (unfavorably) to avenge (oneself):— comfort (self), ease [one’s self], repent(-er,-ing, self).

Ge 5:29 And he called his name Noah, saying, This same shall comfort <05162> us concerning our work and toil of our hands, because of the ground which the LORD hath cursed.
Ge 6:6 And it repented <05162> the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.
Ge 6:7 And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth <05162> me that I have made them.
Ge 24:67 And Isaac brought her into his mother Sarah’s tent, and took Rebekah, and she became his wife; and he loved her: and Isaac was comforted <05162> after his mother’s death.
Ge 27:42 And these words of Esau her elder son were told to Rebekah: and she sent and called Jacob her younger son, and said unto him, Behold, thy brother Esau, as touching thee, doth comfort <05162> himself, purposing to kill thee.
Ge 37:35 And all his sons and all his daughters rose up to comfort <05162> him; but he refused to be comforted <05162>; and he said, For I will go down into the grave unto my son mourning. Thus his father wept for him.
Ge 38:12 And in process of time the daughter of Shuah Judah’s wife died; and Judah was comforted <05162>, and went up unto his sheepshearers to Timnath, he and his friend Hirah the Adullamite.
Ge 50:21 Now therefore fear ye not: I will nourish you, and your little ones. And he comforted <05162> them, and spake kindly unto them.
Ex 13:17 And it came to pass, when Pharaoh had let the people go, that God led them not through the way of the land of the Philistines, although that was near; for God said, Lest peradventure the people repent <05162> when they see war, and they return to Egypt:
Ex 32:12 Wherefore should the Egyptians speak, and say, For mischief did he bring them out, to slay them in the mountains, and to consume them from the face of the earth? Turn from thy fierce wrath, and repent <05162> of this evil against thy people.
Ex 32:14 And the LORD repented <05162> of the evil which he thought to do unto his people.
Nu 23:19 God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent <05162>: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?
De 32:36 For the LORD shall judge his people, and repent <05162> himself for his servants, when he seeth that their power is gone, and there is none shut up, or left.
Jud 2:18 And when the LORD raised them up judges, then the LORD was with the judge, and delivered them out of the hand of their enemies all the days of the judge: for it repented <05162> the LORD because of their groanings by reason of them that oppressed them and vexed them.
Jud 21:6 And the children of Israel repented <05162> them for Benjamin their brother, and said, There is one tribe cut off from Israel this day.
Jud 21:15 And the people repented <05162> them for Benjamin, because that the LORD had made a breach in the tribes of Israel.
Ru 2:13 Then she said, Let me find favour in thy sight, my lord; for that thou hast comforted <05162> me, and for that thou hast spoken friendly unto thine handmaid, though I be not like unto one of thine handmaidens.
1Sa 15:11 It repenteth <05162> me that I have set up Saul to be king: for he is turned back from following me, and hath not performed my commandments. And it grieved Samuel; and he cried unto the LORD all night.
1Sa 15:29 And also the Strength of Israel will not lie nor repent <05162>: for he is not a man, that he should repent <05162>.
1Sa 15:35 And Samuel came no more to see Saul until the day of his death: nevertheless Samuel mourned for Saul: and the LORD repented <05162> that he had made Saul king over Israel.
2Sa 10:2 Then said David, I will shew kindness unto Hanun the son of Nahash, as his father shewed kindness unto me. And David sent to comfort <05162> him by the hand of his servants for his father. And David’s servants came into the land of the children of Ammon.
2Sa 10:3 And the princes of the children of Ammon said unto Hanun their lord, Thinkest thou that David doth honour thy father, that he hath sent comforters <05162> unto thee? hath not David rather sent his servants unto thee, to search the city, and to spy it out, and to overthrow it?
2Sa 12:24 And David comforted <05162> Bathsheba his wife, and went in unto her, and lay with her: and she bare a son, and he called his name Solomon: and the LORD loved him.
2Sa 13:39 And the soul of king David longed to go forth unto Absalom: for he was comforted <05162> concerning Amnon, seeing he was dead.
2Sa 24:16 And when the angel stretched out his hand upon Jerusalem to destroy it, the LORD repented <05162> him of the evil, and said to the angel that destroyed the people, It is enough: stay now thine hand. And the angel of the LORD was by the threshingplace of Araunah the Jebusite.
1Ch 7:22 And Ephraim their father mourned many days, and his brethren came to comfort <05162> him.
1Ch 19:2 And David said, I will shew kindness unto Hanun the son of Nahash, because his father shewed kindness to me. And David sent messengers to comfort <05162> him concerning his father. So the servants of David came into the land of the children of Ammon to Hanun, to comfort <05162> him.
1Ch 19:3 But the princes of the children of Ammon said to Hanun, Thinkest thou that David doth honour thy father, that he hath sent comforters <05162> unto thee? are not his servants come unto thee for to search, and to overthrow, and to spy out the land?

Continued on next post

godslove

10-24-2006, 06:59 PM

continued

1Ch 21:15 And God sent an angel unto Jerusalem to destroy it: and as he was destroying, the LORD beheld, and he repented <05162> him of the evil, and said to the angel that destroyed, It is enough, stay now thine hand. And the angel of the LORD stood by the threshingfloor of Ornan the Jebusite.
Job 2:11 Now when Job’s three friends heard of all this evil that was come upon him, they came every one from his own place; Eliphaz the Temanite, and Bildad the Shuhite, and Zophar the Naamathite: for they had made an appointment together to come to mourn with him and to comfort <05162> him.
Job 7:13 When I say, My bed shall comfort <05162> me, my couch shall ease my complaint;
Job 16:2 I have heard many such things: miserable comforters <05162> are ye all.
Job 21:34 How then comfort <05162> ye me in vain, seeing in your answers there remaineth falsehood?
Job 29:25 I chose out their way, and sat chief, and dwelt as a king in the army, as one that comforteth <05162> the mourners.
Job 42:6 Wherefore I abhor myself, and repent <05162> in dust and ashes.
Job 42:11 Then came there unto him all his brethren, and all his sisters, and all they that had been of his acquaintance before, and did eat bread with him in his house: and they bemoaned him, and comforted <05162> him over all the evil that the LORD had brought upon him: every man also gave him a piece of money, and every one an earring of gold.
Ps 23:4 Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil: for thou art with me; thy rod and thy staff they comfort <05162> me.
Ps 69:20 Reproach hath broken my heart; and I am full of heaviness: and I looked for some to take pity, but there was none; and for comforters <05162>, but I found none.
Ps 71:21 Thou shalt increase my greatness, and comfort <05162> me on every side.
Ps 77:2 In the day of my trouble I sought the Lord: my sore ran in the night, and ceased not: my soul refused to be comforted <05162>.
Ps 86:17 Shew me a token for good; that they which hate me may see it, and be ashamed: because thou, LORD, hast holpen me, and comforted <05162> me.
Ps 90:13 Return, O LORD, how long? and let it repent <05162> thee concerning thy servants.
Ps 106:45 And he remembered for them his covenant, and repented <05162> according to the multitude of his mercies.
Ps 110:4 The LORD hath sworn, and will not repent <05162>, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchizedek.
Ps 119:52 I remembered thy judgments of old, O LORD; and have comforted <05162> myself.
Ps 119:76 Let, I pray thee, thy merciful kindness be for my comfort <05162>, according to thy word unto thy servant.
Ps 119:82 Mine eyes fail for thy word, saying, When wilt thou comfort <05162> me?
Ps 135:14 For the LORD will judge his people, and he will repent <05162> himself concerning his servants.
Ec 4:1 So I returned, and considered all the oppressions that are done under the sun: and behold the tears of such as were oppressed, and they had no comforter <05162>; and on the side of their oppressors there was power; but they had no comforter <05162>.
Isa 1:24 Therefore saith the Lord, the LORD of hosts, the mighty One of Israel, Ah, I will ease <05162> me of mine adversaries, and avenge me of mine enemies:
Isa 12:1 And in that day thou shalt say, O LORD, I will praise thee: though thou wast angry with me, thine anger is turned away, and thou comfortedst <05162> me.
Isa 22:4 Therefore said I, Look away from me; I will weep bitterly, labour not to comfort <05162> me, because of the spoiling of the daughter of my people.
Isa 40:1 Comfort <05162> ye, comfort <05162> ye my people, saith your God.
Isa 49:13 Sing, O heavens; and be joyful, O earth; and break forth into singing, O mountains: for the LORD hath comforted <05162> his people, and will have mercy upon his afflicted.
Isa 51:3 For the LORD shall comfort <05162> Zion: he will comfort <05162> all her waste places; and he will make her wilderness like Eden, and her desert like the garden of the LORD; joy and gladness shall be found therein, thanksgiving, and the voice of melody.
Isa 51:12 I, even I, am he that comforteth <05162> you: who art thou, that thou shouldest be afraid of a man that shall die, and of the son of man which shall be made as grass;
Isa 51:19 These two things are come unto thee; who shall be sorry for thee? desolation, and destruction, and the famine, and the sword: by whom shall I comfort <05162> thee?
Isa 52:9 Break forth into joy, sing together, ye waste places of Jerusalem: for the LORD hath comforted <05162> his people, he hath redeemed Jerusalem.
Isa 54:11 O thou afflicted, tossed with tempest, and not comforted <05162>, behold, I will lay thy stones with fair colours, and lay thy foundations with sapphires.
Isa 57:6 Among the smooth stones of the stream is thy portion; they, they are thy lot: even to them hast thou poured a drink offering, thou hast offered a meat offering. Should I receive comfort <05162> in these?
Isa 61:2 To proclaim the acceptable year of the LORD, and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort <05162> all that mourn;
Isa 66:13 As one whom his mother comforteth <05162>, so will I comfort <05162> you; and ye shall be comforted <05162> in Jerusalem.
Jer 4:28 For this shall the earth mourn, and the heavens above be black: because I have spoken it, I have purposed it, and will not repent <05162>, neither will I turn back from it.
Jer 8:6 I hearkened and heard, but they spake not aright: no man repented <05162> him of his wickedness, saying, What have I done? every one turned to his course, as the horse rusheth into the battle.
Jer 15:6 Thou hast forsaken me, saith the LORD, thou art gone backward: therefore will I stretch out my hand against thee, and destroy thee; I am weary with repenting <05162>.
Jer 16:7 Neither shall men tear themselves for them in mourning, to comfort <05162> them for the dead; neither shall men give them the cup of consolation to drink for their father or for their mother.

Continued on next post

godslove

10-24-2006, 07:01 PM

continued

Jer 18:8 If that nation, against whom I have pronounced, turn from their evil, I will repent <05162> of the evil that I thought to do unto them.
Jer 18:10 If it do evil in my sight, that it obey not my voice, then I will repent <05162> of the good, wherewith I said I would benefit them.
Jer 20:16 And let that man be as the cities which the LORD overthrew, and repented <05162> not: and let him hear the cry in the morning, and the shouting at noontide;
Jer 26:3 If so be they will hearken, and turn every man from his evil way, that I may repent <05162> me of the evil, which I purpose to do unto them because of the evil of their doings.
Jer 26:13 Therefore now amend your ways and your doings, and obey the voice of the LORD your God; and the LORD will repent <05162> him of the evil that he hath pronounced against you.
Jer 26:19 Did Hezekiah king of Judah and all Judah put him at all to death? did he not fear the LORD, and besought the LORD, and the LORD repented <05162> him of the evil which he had pronounced against them? Thus might we procure great evil against our souls.
Jer 31:13 Then shall the virgin rejoice in the dance, both young men and old together: for I will turn their mourning into joy, and will comfort <05162> them, and make them rejoice from their sorrow.
Jer 31:15 Thus saith the LORD; A voice was heard in Ramah, lamentation, and bitter weeping; Rahel weeping for her children refused to be comforted <05162> for her children, because they were not.
Jer 31:19 Surely after that I was turned, I repented <05162>; and after that I was instructed, I smote upon my thigh: I was ashamed, yea, even confounded, because I did bear the reproach of my youth.
Jer 42:10 If ye will still abide in this land, then will I build you, and not pull you down, and I will plant you, and not pluck you up: for I repent <05162> me of the evil that I have done unto you.
La 1:2 She weepeth sore in the night, and her tears are on her cheeks: among all her lovers she hath none to comfort <05162> her: all her friends have dealt treacherously with her, they are become her enemies.
La 1:9 Her filthiness is in her skirts; she remembereth not her last end; therefore she came down wonderfully: she had no comforter <05162>. O LORD, behold my affliction: for the enemy hath magnified himself.
La 1:16 For these things I weep; mine eye, mine eye runneth down with water, because the comforter <05162> that should relieve my soul is far from me: my children are desolate, because the enemy prevailed.
La 1:17 Zion spreadeth forth her hands, and there is none to comfort <05162> her: the LORD hath commanded concerning Jacob, that his adversaries should be round about him: Jerusalem is as a menstruous woman among them.

Conued on next post

continued

La 1:21 They have heard that I sigh: there is none to comfort <05162> me: all mine enemies have heard of my trouble; they are glad that thou hast done it: thou wilt bring the day that thou hast called, and they shall be like unto me.
La 2:13 What thing shall I take to witness for thee? what thing shall I liken to thee, O daughter of Jerusalem? what shall I equal to thee, that I may comfort <05162> thee, O virgin daughter of Zion? for thy breach is great like the sea: who can heal thee?
Eze 5:13 Thus shall mine anger be accomplished, and I will cause my fury to rest upon them, and I will be comforted <05162>: and they shall know that I the LORD have spoken it in my zeal, when I have accomplished my fury in them.
Eze 14:22 Yet, behold, therein shall be left a remnant that shall be brought forth, both sons and daughters: behold, they shall come forth unto you, and ye shall see their way and their doings: and ye shall be comforted <05162> concerning the evil that I have brought upon Jerusalem, even concerning all that I have brought upon it.
Eze 14:23 And they shall comfort <05162> you, when ye see their ways and their doings: and ye shall know that I have not done without cause all that I have done in it, saith the Lord GOD.
Eze 16:54 That thou mayest bear thine own shame, and mayest be confounded in all that thou hast done, in that thou art a comfort <05162> unto them.
Eze 24:14 I the LORD have spoken it: it shall come to pass, and I will do it; I will not go back, neither will I spare, neither will I repent <05162>; according to thy ways, and according to thy doings, shall they judge thee, saith the Lord GOD.
Eze 31:16 I made the nations to shake at the sound of his fall, when I cast him down to hell with them that descend into the pit: and all the trees of Eden, the choice and best of Lebanon, all that drink water, shall be comforted <05162> in the nether parts of the earth.
Eze 32:31 Pharaoh shall see them, and shall be comforted <05162> over all his multitude, even Pharaoh and all his army slain by the sword, saith the Lord GOD.
Joe 2:13 And rend your heart, and not your garments, and turn unto the LORD your God: for he is gracious and merciful, slow to anger, and of great kindness, and repenteth <05162> him of the evil.
Joe 2:14 Who knoweth if he will return and repent <05162>, and leave a blessing behind him; even a meat offering and a drink offering unto the LORD your God?
Am 7:3 The LORD repented <05162> for this: It shall not be, saith the LORD.
Am 7:6 The LORD repented <05162> for this: This also shall not be, saith the Lord GOD.
Jon 3:9 Who can tell if God will turn and repent <05162>, and turn away from his fierce anger, that we perish not?
Jon 3:10 And God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and God repented <05162> of the evil, that he had said that he would do unto them; and he did it not.
Jon 4:2 And he prayed unto the LORD, and said, I pray thee, O LORD, was not this my saying, when I was yet in my country? Therefore I fled before unto Tarshish: for I knew that thou art a gracious God, and merciful, slow to anger, and of great kindness, and repentest <05162> thee of the evil.
Na 3:7 And it shall come to pass, that all they that look upon thee shall flee from thee, and say, Nineveh is laid waste: who will bemoan her? whence shall I seek comforters <05162> for thee?
Zec 1:17 Cry yet, saying, Thus saith the LORD of hosts; My cities through prosperity shall yet be spread abroad; and the LORD shall yet comfort <05162> Zion, and shall yet choose Jerusalem.
Zec 8:14 For thus saith the LORD of hosts; As I thought to punish you, when your fathers provoked me to wrath, saith the LORD of hosts, and I repented <05162> not:
Zec 10:2 For the idols have spoken vanity, and the diviners have seen a lie, and have told false dreams; they comfort <05162> in vain: therefore they went their way as a flock, they were troubled, because there was no shepherd.

godslove

10-24-2006, 07:13 PM

As you can see 05162 can be used different ways.
07725 is translated 3 x as repent (as far as I can find) so I will not list all of the other verses. Which is about 50 pages long…God bless

07725. bwv shuwb shoob; a primitive root; to turn back (hence, away) transitively or intransitively, literally or figuratively (not necessarily with the idea of return to the starting point); generally to retreat; often adverbial, again:— ([break, build, circumcise, dig, do anything, do evil, feed, lay down, lie down, lodge, make, rejoice, send, take, weep]) X again, (cause to) answer (+ again), X in any case (wise), X at all, averse, bring (again, back, home again), call [to mind], carry again (back), cease, X certainly, come again (back), X consider, + continually, convert, deliver (again), + deny, draw back, fetch home again, X fro, get [oneself] (back) again, X give (again), go again (back, home), [go] out, hinder, let, [see] more, X needs, be past, X pay, pervert, pull in again, put (again, up again), recall, recompense, recover, refresh, relieve, render (again), requite, rescue, restore, retrieve, (cause to, make to) return, reverse, reward, + say nay, send back, set again, slide back, still, X surely, take back (off), (cause to, make to) turn (again, self again, away, back, back again, backward, from, off), withdraw.

1Ki 8:47 Yet if they shall bethink themselves in the land whither they were carried captives, and repent <07725>, and make supplication unto thee in the land of them that carried them captives, saying, We have sinned, and have done perversely, we have committed wickedness;
Eze 14:6 Therefore say unto the house of Israel, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Repent <07725>, and turn yourselves from your idols; and turn away your faces from all your abominations.
Eze 18:30 Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, every one according to his ways, saith the Lord GOD. Repent <07725>, and turn yourselves from all your transgressions; so iniquity shall not be your ruin.

And this one only has one listing
05164. Mxn nocham no’- kham; from 05162; ruefulness, i.e. desistance:— repentance.

Ho 13:14 I will ransom them from the power of the grave; I will redeem them from death: O death, I will be thy plagues; O grave, I will be thy destruction: repentance <05164> shall be hid from mine eyes.

godslove

10-24-2006, 07:30 PM

i found another similar word for repent. repentance.

3341. metanoia metanoia met-an’-oy-ah; from 3340; (subjectively) compunction (for guilt, including reformation); by implication reversal (of [another’s] decision):— repentance.

3340. metanoew metanoeo met-an-o-eh’-o; from 3326 and 3539; to think differently or afterwards, i.e. reconsider (morally, feel compunction):— repent.

3326. meta meta met-ah’; a primary preposition (often used adverbially); properly, denoting accompaniment; "amid" (local or causal); modified variously according to the case (genitive case association, or accusative case succession) with which it is joined; occupying an intermediate position between 575 or 1537 and 1519 or 4314; less intimate than 1722 and less close than 4862):—after(-ward), X that he again, against, among, X and, + follow, hence, hereafter, in, of, (up-)on, + our, X and setting, since, (un-)to, +together, when, with (+- out). Often used in composition, in substantially the same relations of participation or proximity, and transfer or sequence.

3539. noiew noieo noy-eh’-o; from 3563; to exercise the mind (observe), i.e. (figuratively) to comprehend, heed:— consider, perceive, think, understand.

3563. nouv nous nooce; probably from the base of 1097; the intellect, i.e. mind (divine or human; in thought, feeling, or will); by implication meaning:— mind, understanding. Compare 5590.

Mt 3:8 Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance <3341>:
Mt 3:11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance <3341>: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:
Mt 9:13 But go ye and learn what that meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance <3341>.
Mr 1:4 John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance <3341> for the remission of sins.
Mr 2:17 When Jesus heard it, he saith unto them, They that are whole have no need of the physician, but they that are sick: I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance <3341>.
Lu 3:3 And he came into all the country about Jordan, preaching the baptism of repentance <3341> for the remission of sins;
Lu 3:8 Bring forth therefore fruits worthy of repentance <3341>, and begin not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, That God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.
Lu 5:32 I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance <3341>.
Lu 15:7 I say unto you, that likewise joy shall be in heaven over one sinner that repenteth, more than over ninety and nine just persons, which need no repentance <3341>.
Lu 24:47 And that repentance <3341> and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.
Ac 5:31 Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance <3341> to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.
Ac 11:18 When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance <3341> unto life.
Ac 13:24 When John had first preached before his coming the baptism of repentance <3341> to all the people of Israel.
Ac 19:4 Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance <3341>, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.
Ac 20:21 Testifying both to the Jews, and also to the Greeks, repentance <3341> toward God, and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ.
Ac 26:20 But shewed first unto them of Damascus, and at Jerusalem, and throughout all the coasts of Judaea, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance <3341>.
Ro 2:4 Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance <3341>?
2Co 7:9 Now I rejoice, not that ye were made sorry, but that ye sorrowed to repentance <3341>: for ye were made sorry after a godly manner, that ye might receive damage by us in nothing.
2Co 7:10 For godly sorrow worketh repentance <3341> to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death.
2Ti 2:25 In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance <3341> to the acknowledging of the truth;
Heb 6:1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance <3341> from dead works, and of faith toward God,
Heb 6:6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance <3341>; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
Heb 12:17 For ye know how that afterward, when he would have inherited the blessing, he was rejected: for he found no place of repentance <3341>, though he sought it carefully with tears.
2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us–ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance <3341>.

allthingspure

10-25-2006, 02:01 PM

God has everything planned.

If this were the case then it would be putting God in the position of lying, and that is one thing that God cannot do. It would also make Him a deciever.
Here is why, (God already knowing what the outcome of all things will be, and
knowing that He would not actually destory His people,) With Him knowing this, yet He told Moses in Numbers 14:12 > I will smite them with pestilence, and disinhert them, and will make of thee a greater nation and mightier than they.
I do not believe that God would make Moses think that He was going to destory the people, knowing that whole time that he would not.
If He had not actually planned to do it, then He wouldn't have said that He would.That would make Him a lier and a deciever and He is most surely Not that.
God did not want to destory His people, but He would have,(because He dosen't lie) but Moses interceded for them, and therefore God changed His plan to destory them.

I suppose if you believe that God doesn't already have everything willed and we can change his mind, then that would mean we could also change his mind on when this world ends? We can somehow postpone when he pours out his wrath upon the wicked? You can believe that if you like, but I will stick to believe the creator has a plan and time for everything. I believe in his divine will.

No we cannot change the mind of God about the end time, seeing as how no one knows the day nor the hour:) That would be a foolish thing to try to do.

Also, the subject is about changing God's mind. But to change God's mind would mean you also changed his plan which he established from the beginning. That sets his plan or will at our disposal. That leaves his will to do whatever we desire to do with it.
God did not plan from the beginning to destory His people,but to save them, yet because of their constant rebellion He was going to destory them, but Moses prayed that He would not.
To say that we can do with Gods will as we please is foolish, there are some times when God will not change His mind, but sometimes He will, it is not depending on us. It all depends on what He chooses to do, He will listen to our prayer but that does not mean that He will always do as we ask.
We must make our request known to Him, but in the end we pray nevertheless not my will but thine be done, because we trust that He knows best. If what we ask is the best thing for us then He will do it. Just as Soloman prayed for wisdom to lead Gods people, it was a good request and it pleased God, so He granted it plus He added more blessings to it.

But this doesn't refute the idea that God had willed the intervention of Moses and it was his purpose that Moses speak on their behalf. The result is God knew he would not end up destroying them. Thus, his will was fulfilled.

The Bible does not tell us that God willed Moses to intersede for the people, we do know that God chose Moses to be a leader of the people, to lead them out of Egypt to the promise land.
You are right God knew that He would end up not destorying the people, and He also knew that Moses would intersede, but that does not prove that God willed Moses to intersede, seeing as to how at the time it was Gods will to make a great nation out of Moses.God changed His mind and His will when Moses prayed. And it was all because God decided to do it, after He listened to Moses. Moses does not get credit for it, it was Gods decision and His alone.

Again the Bible does not tell us that God willed the intervention of Moses. But it does tell us that God chose Moses to lead the people out of Egypt.
So that I will believe. At one point it was Gods will to bless the people then at one point is was His will to destory them. He changes His mind about somethings when he sees fit.

While others view it as an event that blindly played out and God changed his mind because he didn't know beforehand what would happen to act accordingly.
I think we all know better than to think that :) We all know that God is all knowing. Numbers 14:19-20 > And the Lord said, I have pardoned according to thy word...... If God said that it was according to Moses word then it was.

allthingspure

OneJoe

10-25-2006, 04:39 PM

If this were the case then it would be putting God in the position of lying, and that is one thing that God cannot do. It would also make Him a deciever.
Here is why, (God already knowing what the outcome of all things will be, and
knowing that He would not actually destory His people,) With Him knowing this, yet He told Moses in Numbers 14:12 > I will smite them with pestilence, and disinhert them, and will make of thee a greater nation and mightier than they.
I do not believe that God would make Moses think that He was going to destory the people, knowing that whole time that he would not.
If He had not actually planned to do it, then He wouldn't have said that He would.That would make Him a lier and a deciever and He is most surely Not that.
God did not want to destory His people, but He would have,(because He dosen't lie) but Moses interceded for them, and therefore God changed His plan to destory them.

Let me see if I'm understanding you correctly. I will use another example which is relative to this situation. As you said, you don't believe God would made them think he was going to destory them when he wasn't actually planning to. Yet you also said in your last post that he made an "escape" for them. What about our salvation? Is that not a similar situation? A man may know God is going to send him to hell if he doesn't believe and follow Christ because the Gospel says so, yet the man is unable to do so on his own. The Gospel tells us to do something, but we can't do it without God's help. Therefore, God made an "escape" for his elect. God made a plan in the beginning of how he would obtain what he desired. The same applies to Moses. It is not deciet on God's part. It may very well be intimidation, but that is not unrighteous of God since we know that he could very well fulfill a desire to destroy them if that was what he really wanted to do. It is not deceit, nor do I believe God's intentions were for us to actually believe we could change his mind, but rather to see how he fulfilled what he really desired both for Israel and today, his elect.

God did not plan from the beginning to destory His people,but to save them, yet because of their constant rebellion He was going to destory them, but Moses prayed that He would not.

Where does God being able to forsee things come in at? Saying he didn't plan to destroy them but later wanted to because of there rebellion is like saying he didn't see from the beginning they would do that. We could say he forsaw they were going to rebel and planned right away to destroy them, but that wouldn't fit the bible since he would have done just that if he had planned to. Or, we could say, as I believe is the case, that God forsaw they would rebel and planned aforetime that Moses would intercede for Israel after saying he would destroy them. God saying he would destroy them was not for deciet, but to give Moses a reason for interceding. Thus, he suceeds in what he planned. Otherwise, what purpose would Moses have of interceding if God had not said he would destroy them. Again, no I do not believe that God had planned to destroy Israel in this case. I believe He saw what would happen and planned how He would turn it around. He did all these things since he was able to forsee the future.

To say that we can do with Gods will as we please is foolish, there are some times when God will not change His mind, but sometimes He will, it is not depending on us. It all depends on what He chooses to do, He will listen to our prayer but that does not mean that He will always do as we ask.

Again, saying God changed His mind is like saying He didn't see the future to plan in advance. It only appears to the eye of man that he changed his will, but in reality all things are going as planned. Also, no God does not always do as we ask. If God did answer every thing we ask of him, that might change something. But since it must be according to his will to be answered or granted, his will remains the same and is never changing. That is why God answered Moses. It was according to God's will that Moses would do so.

We must make our request known to Him, but in the end we pray nevertheless not my will but thine be done, because we trust that He knows best. If what we ask is the best thing for us then He will do it. Just as Soloman prayed for wisdom to lead Gods people, it was a good request and it pleased God, so He granted it plus He added more blessings to it.

All things after the councel of his own will..:-)

The Bible does not tell us that God willed Moses to intersede for the people, we do know that God chose Moses to be a leader of the people, to lead them out of Egypt to the promise land.
You are right God knew that He would end up not destorying the people, and He also knew that Moses would intersede, but that does not prove that God willed Moses to intersede, seeing as to how at the time it was Gods will to make a great nation out of Moses.God changed His mind and His will when Moses prayed.

The bible does not specifically tell us who is willed to Salvation either, but we know he has done it. Also, you said God changed his mind and his will? I believe God and his will are one in the same. If his will changes, he has changed. But the bible teaches God does not change. The same applies to you, me, or anyone else. When we change our mind, something about us has changed to influence our decision.

At one point it was Gods will to bless the people then at one point is was His will to destory them. He changes His mind about somethings when he sees fit. This description makes God sound like he has a veil over his face and is completely blinded to the future. This makes him sound equal to man and no more capable of planning for the future than we can. If I could see the future as God can, I too would have all things planned and my mind would remain a solid rock which is never moved.

God Bless!

germanJoy

10-26-2006, 01:09 PM

Greetings of love, joy and peace to all of you my brethren in Christ Jesus our Lord. :)

As I was reading through the whole thread , I asked myself how could I missed all these? :-D

Webster Definition of "to pray" is "to commune with God, offer thanks, make requests known; ask somebody for something or to do something; etc. Since prayer is an act made to plead God to move in a particular situation, it naturally requires a will to believe (faith)God for an answer. For if I believe that God has already a predestined answer which can no longer be changed regardless of how long or how often I pray for any particular situation, I would not be needing to present Him my requests any longer but would just accept my situation. This caused, of course, arguments between two sides of the coin (freewill versus predestination). :-)

I think the sole answer to this whole discussion is already provided in Scriptures and it is entirely up to us whether we want to have eyes to see and ears to hear. Here is the given Scripture:

Now He was telling them a parable to show that at all times they ought to pray and not to lose heart, saying:

"There was in a certain city a judge who did not fear God, and did not respect man. And there was a widow in that city, and she kept coming to him saying, 'Give me legal protection from my opponent.' And for a while he was unwilling; but afterward he said to himself, 'Even though I do not fear God nor respect man, yet because this widow bothers me, I will give her legal protection, lest by continually coming she wear me out.'"

And the Lord said: "Hear what the unrighteous judge said; now shall not God bring about justice for His elect, who cry to Him day and night and will He delay long over them? I tell you that He will bring about justice for them speedily. However, when the Son of Man comes, will He find faith on the earth?" Luke 18:1-8

Could we all now imagine which kind of believers are always on their knees willingly praying to God and having faith for their prayers to be answered? I could! :-)