Does the trinity exist?

[grizzlybee9]

Hello every one,
I've just found my faith in religion and I'm really confused about a few things and hope that you can help me?

The catholic church says that we believe in the trinity but in the bible there is no trinity?

Who do you believe God is? A spirit or jesus christ? Is Jesus Christ God?
Would some one kindly talk to me about how a christian life should be led?

I appreciate any advice. :-)

[germanJoy]

Hello every one,
I've just found my faith in religion and I'm really confused about a few things and hope that you can help me?

The catholic church says that we believe in the trinity but in the bible there is no trinity?

Who do you believe God is? A spirit or jesus christ? Is Jesus Christ God?
Would some one kindly talk to me about how a christian life should be led?

I appreciate any advice. :-)
Hi grizzlybee
Firstly, allow me to advise you not to seek religion but instead seek the Lord Jesus Christ who is the Author and Perfecter of our faith for no religion can bring you to the Father except Him.

You are correct to say that the word "trinity" is not in the bible as well as the word "oneness" . Christianity since the time of the early believers had been divided by these two different teachings (quite similar but if you have a closer look they differ a lot) about the nature of God. Trinity teaches that there is one God in 3 distinct persons, the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit while Oneness teaches that there is one God who is Jesus Christ as the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. It is mostly important for us christians to recognize that these two are irreconciliable because one of them is a FALSE teaching that leads to confusion and a wrong revelation of Jesus Christ.

I have written a 10-page long thesis in german language about my belief on trinity with supporting scriptures. If the Lord allows it, we can take it up here step by step.

But I would begin by admonishing you to let this word sink into your heart since this is the confession of faith that leads to our salvation and believe what it says:

Matthew 16:13-17 Now when Jesus came into the district of Caesarea Philippi, He began asking His disciples, saying, Who do people say that the Son of Man is?"
And they said, "Some say John the Baptist, and others, Elijah; but still others, Jeremiah, or one of the prophets."
He said to them, "But who do you say that I am?"
And Simon Peter answered and said, "Thou art the Christ, THE SON OF THE LIVING GOD."
And Jesus answered and said to him, "Blessed are you, Simon Barjona, because flesh and blood did not reveal this to you, BUT MY FATHER who is in heaven. And I also say to you that you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build My church; and the gates of Hades shall not overpower it."

You see, the rock Jesus spoke here was the ROCK OF REVELATION Peter had received where Jesus will build His church i.e., He as the Christ, the SON OF THE LIVING GOD. Oneness teaches that Jesus is the Father in Heaven and this is not what Jesus tells us who He is. Truthfully He said that he and the Father are one (indicating His unity and being one in all things with the Father). Out of this scripture, Oneness had established a doctrine that contradicts to the true nature of Jesus Christ.

God bless you.

[Kimbra90]

grizzlybee, we are given and stregthened by 3 things, clearly explained in the bible, the holy spirit (counsellor), jesus (god in man form and son of god) and the father God (even if its not talked specifically as the trinity). Although these are clearly all one, they are still 3 things that empower us in different ways, i believe. in the end, its a hard one to grasp and we probably wont ever figure out how all three are one yet we stil talk of the trinity, but to me this isnt important, and i spose Gods got that one sussed and we must lean not on our own understanding of it. our minds are only so big to fathom such things! hope that helped? kimbra

[OneJoe]

Grizzlee, as to how you lead a Christian life, I gladly say let GOD tell you how to lead your life. What I tell you now is something no TRUE child of God could disagree with. READ God's word in the bible which he has so graciously given us. You WILL find the answers to how you lead your life. No word of man is ever above God's word. Seek God's word with all your heart and strength. Pray to God that he may grant you understanding of his word and if you ever have a question just post it here on this board and I'm sure others will gladly attempt to help. But I tell you, never settle for what I or anyone tells you. You seek the truth in God's word for yourself and allow God to perfect you.
Heb 13:21 Make you perfect in every good work to do his will, working in you that which is wellpleasing in his sight, through Jesus Christ; to whom be glory forever and ever. Amen.)

(Phi 1:6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ.)

Ecc 8:5 Whoso keepeth the commandment shall feel no evil thing: and a wise man's heart discerneth both time and judgment.

Pro 19:16 He that keepeth the commandment keepeth his own soul; but he that despiseth his ways shall die.

Pro 28:9 He that turneth away his ear from hearing the law, even his prayer shall be abomination.

Joh 14:21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

1Jo 2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

1Jo 2:5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.

1Jo 3:24 And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.

[Brenda]

Well I want to try to explain it in a way that maybe you can understand the Trinity. This is similar to what was told to me years ago, so I may not get it just as it was told but I am going to try.
The Trinity being the Father, Jesus and the Holy Spirit.
Now, let's say there is a Electrical Company. Now to go from there, there is the Power Company that we get our power source from. To get to our home it will also go through a transformer, then to our homes through power lines. Now, let's say God the Father is the Power House, Jesus is the Transformer and the Holy Spirit is the power line.
God sent His son Jesus to be our transformer and when Jesus went back to Heaven, He said I will not leave you comfortless and left us the Holy Spirit, for those that receive and believe in Him. This is 3 in one. This would make us the house in which the power comes to, so before we can really understand we must plug into the socket of our home by receiving Jesus as our saviour from where our power comes through, then the Holy Spirit will bare witness with God that He is the Way.Although we can see them as separate, they all come from the same power as one. I pray this will help you to understand.

[OneVoice]

Hello every one,
I've just found my faith in religion and I'm really confused about a few things and hope that you can help me?

The catholic church says that we believe in the trinity but in the bible there is no trinity?

Who do you believe God is? A spirit or jesus christ? Is Jesus Christ God?
Would some one kindly talk to me about how a christian life should be led?

I appreciate any advice. :-)


If It's about God go to HIS word. What does the BIBLE say

Matthew 3 (http://www.biblegateway.com/keyword/?search=dove&version1=31&searchtype=all&wholewordsonly=yes&bookset=2)

16As soon as Jesus was baptized, he went up out of the water. At that moment heaven was opened, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and lighting on him. 17And a voice from heaven said, "This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased."

The Father speaks of the Son WHO is identified by the Holy Spirit.
There they all are in one place.

In Genesis 1 you will see the Spirirt moving over the earth.
You see Him ads an activator in the old Testement and as an inhabitant of bleivers and followers of Christ in the New Testement.

Jesus the Son was fortold as Emanuel, God WITH us.
Jesus says in John10 "I and the Father ARE ONE.
Jesus is God the Son.

God says throught the Vible and it is written of Him that He is God the Father, Jesus called Him "Adonai" which means Father in a personal sense, And "Abba", which means "Daddy" the familiar the Jews took such offnese to.

God is God the Father

The Spirit is called the "Spirit of the LORD", In the old Testement "LORD" prefigures, or referes to, Jesus. The "Holy Spirit" -know that ONLY God is Holy. Jesus and God are One and so the Spirit and Jesus and God are ONE.

Jesus promised the Spirit would come in John 16-18.
If you wander over the www.biblegateway.com and use the Keyword Search and look up Spirit, and deposit in the New testement you will see that the indwelling Holy Spirit is a promise most extraordinary.
He is a deposist.
If some one told yu that he was going to give you a millon dollard at midnight, and then he gave you 10 thousand dollars as a deposit. You'd pobably be looking for him at Midnight, right?
Because of the nature of the deposit you knew he would retun to pay the rest.
Consider that as you are reading about the "deposit" in the scripure your search will find.

Jesus tlaks about the Spirit.
God sends the Spirit.
And the Spirit indwelling all believers is Christ WITH us.

OneVoice

[TallOne]

I'm sure somone else could answer better but YES.

I have never seen anyware the bible sayes trinity but you know there was GOD in the begening"now too" Jesus,....and after Jesus rose from the dead and then asended up to heaven he sent the Holy spirit "the comforter"

GOD
Jesus
Holy Spirit

This is what people refer to as the Trinity

God is the creator., and father of Jesus. and Jesus said I'f you know him you know the father so I asume they are verry much alike.

I hope this helps some...

[OneVoice]

Well I want to try to explain it in a way that maybe you can understand the Trinity. This is similar to what was told to me years ago, so I may not get it just as it was told but I am going to try.
The Trinity being the Father, Jesus and the Holy Spirit.
Now, let's say there is a Electrical Company. Now to go from there, there is the Power Company that we get our power source from. To get to our home it will also go through a transformer, then to our homes through power lines. Now, let's say God the Father is the Power House, Jesus is the Transformer and the Holy Spirit is the power line.
God sent His son Jesus to be our transformer and when Jesus went back to Heaven, He said I will not leave you comfortless and left us the Holy Spirit, for those that receive and believe in Him. This is 3 in one. This would make us the house in which the power comes to, so before we can really understand we must plug into the socket of our home by receiving Jesus as our saviour from where our power comes through, then the Holy Spirit will bare witness with God that He is the Way.Although we can see them as separate, they all come from the same power as one. I pray this will help you to understand.

can you give us some scripture to go with that? it would help.

[OneVoice]

I'm sure somone else could answer better but YES.

I have never seen anyware the bible sayes trinity but you know there was GOD in the begening"now too" Jesus,....and after Jesus rose from the dead and then asended up to heaven he sent the Holy spirit "the comforter"

GOD
Jesus
Holy Spirit

This is what people refer to as the Trinity

God is the creator., and father of Jesus. and Jesus said I'f you know him you know the father so I asume they are verry much alike.

I hope this helps some...
The word Trinity is used in standar vocabulary to describe three that are part of eachother and belong togetehr, and ON THOIS CAE, are in deed eachother in FILL. You see what is described as the Holy Trinoity in the Bible. There is a family protrait in Matthew 3, as a matter of fact. The word may not appear in scripture but the members of that Holy Trinity certanly are very visable. Jesus said that to know Him was to kow the Father (John 14:9Jesus answered: "Don't you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, 'Show us the Father'?read th ho;e book of John.

[not4gotton]

NO!!!!!! there is ONE Spirit....ONE Flesh <the man Christ Jesus) the Spirit that was, and is, in Jesus is GOD. ONE GOD ....NOT THREE......the Holy Ghost is the same SPIRIT.....that dwells in mankind

GOD
IN
Christ
And
Christ
IN
US....> that is, those of us who have the Holy Ghost ....which is Gods Spirit in us
Jesus is called the SON because >>God,the Father was First,then he created the FLESHLY body that is called Jesus Christ. The Spirit of GOD dwells in that Body!!!
Just like everyone of us has A Spirit AND A BODY...
Jesus became the sacrifice for us.......and because of what HE DID IF we obey HIS Word and REPENT, AND BE BAPTIZED IN JESUS NAME, FOR THE REMISSION OF THOSE SINS, then He WILL completely do away with THOSE SINS THAT WERE REMITTED, WITH HIS BLOOD !
IF we do not obey the plan for salvation that God has made for us then we will NOT be covered by HIS BLOOD.
WHEN we OBEY then we enter into HIS GRACE.
IT was grace that He had for us ...thats why He (GOD IN CHRIST) became the sacrifice for our sins.......but that GRACE has to be entered into, thru obeying HIS WORD!
When Jesus died IT was as if HE said" here is my GRACE come and partake of it"...
IT IS simple I don't know why people try to complicate GODS WORD!
IF A person can't see that there is ONLY ONE SPIRIT, THAT IS GOD then something is blinding their eyes.

[OneJack]

Grizzlybee9, there is only One God, the Lord Jesus Christ who is the Lord God Almghty of the Old Testament as we can read in I Cor. 10:4 and Jesus Christ is the Lord God who dwelt/lived in the fullness of His Godhood in the bodily flesh born of Mary (Col. 2:9). Jesus Christ is the Father as He mentioned in John 10:30. Summing these all up, the totality of the Lord God is the Lord Jesus Christ and not the bodily flesh born of Mary for such bodily flesh is only a human being to which the Lord Jesus templed/lived in his fullness of being the Lord God. Knowing this fact about the Lord Jesus Christ, Trinity is not true and doesn't exist for the Lord God, God, Father, the Almighty Lord God, the Son, the Messiah, and Emmanuel is one and the same, the Lord Jesus Christ in totality.

May this help you recognize who Jesus is. God bless you.

[asher]

You have posed a very sophisticated question......Indeed the Catholic Church was the first to define the doctrine of the Trinity. All Reformers during the 1500 century agreed with the RCC on this point, based on scriptural evidence. Unfortunately, a few offspring of the Protestant reformation, specifically, Mormons, Jehovah's Witnesses, and Adventists xhallenge the doctrine of the Trinity. The Bottom line: Belief in the Trinity is a defining aspect of Christianity.

blessings,
asher

[germanJoy]

You have posed a very sophisticated question......Indeed the Catholic Church was the first to define the doctrine of the Trinity. All Reformers during the 1500 century agreed with the RCC on this point, based on scriptural evidence. Unfortunately, a few offspring of the Protestant reformation, specifically, Mormons, Jehovah's Witnesses, and Adventists xhallenge the doctrine of the Trinity. The Bottom line: Belief in the Trinity is a defining aspect of Christianity.

blessings,
asher
Hi asher, Onejack and 4gotten... The Catholic church was not the first to define the doctrine of Trinity but the Apostles and their great great grandchildren/successors. The defending of "Trinity" teaching started since the rise of the anti-christ teachings brought up by the following heretical teachers/teachings:

1. Gnosticism (originally predating Christ based on Greek philosophy theory, christian Gnostics believed that since matter was evil God could not really incarnate in a human body);
2. Dynamic Monarchianism (Socianism) 190 A.D. Theodotus of Byzantine of Rome authored this theological heresy with Paul of Samosata as the promoter (claiming that Jesus was a mere man begotten of the virgin Mary by the H. Spirit. He became the Christ at baptism and was adopted by the Father at his death...). This teaching was condemned by the Synod of Antioch in 268.
3. There were two forms of Monarchianism with some similarities but were distinct enough to be opposed to each other. A natural analogy would be "one person acting three different roles in the same drama. Water-ice-vapor". This teaching (adopted by Oneness) is traced by historians to Simon Magnus a magician in Samaria (Acts of the Apostles 8:9) who professed conversion. He was denounced by Peter for trying to buy the Holy Spirit. Simon is attributed to be the very first to propose this idea. He stated that there was only ONE PERSON in the Godhead, and that he was that person, claiming to be the father in Samaria, the son in Judea, the H. Spirit in the rest of the nations. Iranaeus wrote of Simon Magus who became known as the first advocate of Modalism in the apostolic period. So we trace this concept to a Gnostic.

While we would define this as three at the same time in one substance, a MODALIST views it as becoming each, one at a time. The Modalists denied the personal distinctions of the Son and H. Spirit in contrast to the Father.

There was a genuine attempt to defend Monotheism (nowadays known as Oneness) against tritheism (Trinity), but an overreaction none to the less. The term was first used by Tertullian in describing those who wanted to protect the Monarchy (of the one God) from improper thoughts about the economy (of the three: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit). Paul of Samosata who was the bishop of Antioch stated, "Jesus being consubstantial with the Father, but was not a distinct person in the Godhead. He could be identified with God, because He existed in him just as human reason exists in man. He was merely an impersonal power, present in all men, but particularly operative in the man Jesus. By penetrating the humanity of Jesus progressively, as it did no other man, this divine power gradually deified it. And because the man Jesus was thus deified, He is worthy of divine honor, though he cannot be regarded as God in their strict sense of the word."
4. Sabellianism (Modalism, patripassionism) Sabellius, Paraxeus, Neotus, Epigonus said the one God reveals Himself in three modes of being. That the one essence could be interchangeable as the Father, Son, Spirit, they were all different names for the one person who is God. So the Son was the Father himself in a different mode. Noetus and Praxeus are attributed to saying the Father became his own Son, although historically it can be traced to Sabellius. And so the Modalism became connected to what was called Patripassionism-meaning the Father suffered on the cross. So it was the the father who became incarnate through the virgin birth. Praxeus attempted to reconcile this unity of persons by making a distinction of Christ who is the Father and the Son was only his humanity. By doing this it was the Father who co-suffered with the human Jesus. Whatever happened to the son also happened to the father since they were NUMERICALLY ONE.

In the 3rd century, Sabellius in Rome made this into a more sophisticated system ironing out the kinks. He claimed the existence of a divine monad which by a process of expansion projected itself in revelation as the Father, Son, H.Spirit. So each appeared in different periods of time, instead of existing simultaneously. Their doctrine is that Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are one and the same being, in the sense that three names are attached to the one substance. A close analogy is the sun: it is one substance, but it has three manifestations, light, heat and the orb itself. The heat is the Spirit, the light the Son while the Father himself is the actual substance. So trinity was not distinct persons but three offices and actions, he is revealed in three ways (roles, today known as modes by the Oneness Pentecostals). This became more popular than the first view of dynamic Modalism.

We have read throughout the New Testament how the Apostles had defended the true identity of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit against all these heresies (the verses will be shown on my next posts). When the Apostles died, their great grandchildren continued the defense against Sabellianism where the Oneness Pentecostal derived their teachings from. To defend the TRUE FAITH of Christianity, they (the successors of the Apostles) established the CONFESSION OF FAITH known as the NICENE CREED adopted at the council of Nicaea in 325 A.D. (today known as the Apostles' Creed, it was not the Catholic Church but the early churches who authored this Creed; the Catholic church adopted it with some alterations like the holy catholic church instead of "the holy, catholic, and apostolic church", etc.)

It is also for this reason that any religion/belief protesting against the teaching of Trinity (the true nature of God) submit themselves to unbelief as to the true identity of Jesus Christ that could lead to anti-christ teachings.

This should be our CONFESSION OF FAITH if we say we are christians:

Original "Nicene Creed" (modern version)

I believe in one God, Father, All Sovereign, Maker of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible;

And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, begotten of the Father before all ages; Light from Light, True God from True God; begotten not made, of one essence with the Fahter, through Whom all things were made; Who for us men, and for our salvation, came down from Heaven, and was incarnate by the Holy Spirit and the Virgin Mary, and became man. And was crucified for us nder Pontius Pilate, and suffered and was buried; And He rose on the third day according to the Scriptures; And ascended into Heaven, and sits at the right hand of the Father; And He is coming again with the glory to judge the living and the dead; And His kingdom will have no end.

And in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the Giver of Life; Who proceeds from the Father; who with the Father and the Son is equally worshipped and glorified; Who spoke by the Prophets.

In One Holy, Catholic (Personal Note: meaning "universal" and not the known "catholic church"), and Apostolic Church

I confess one Baptism for the remission of sins.
I look for the Resurrection of the Dead:
And the Life of the Age to come. Amen

[EnterHisPresence]

Speaking of Jesus, Isa 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The Everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

Just for thought...why would Jesus be called the everlasting father?

[not4gotton]

NEVER from the beginning of time did God ever led His people to believe in a trinity. God is God all by HImself HE dosen't need help from two other persons. HE can Manifest HIMSELF in any way HE chooses but HE IS STILL ONE GOD !
And if you think that the LORD, or the Apostles taught anything other than **HEAR O ISRAEL THE LORD OUR IS ONE LORD** then you must be reading the wrong book or perhaps the LORD has blinded your eyes for a reason.*Flesh and blood cannot reveal this to you ONLY GOD CAN !* If and when HE chooses!
I DO NOT CARE what the catholic teach ! Or what the "ISMS" you spoke of teach or say. NONE of it matters ! I don't waste my time on false doctrine !
I know the LORD ! and I know WHO HE IS, because HE has shown me.
The reason people get confused is because they try to mix different doctrines to make them compatable ! You can't mix fact and fiction, nor TRUTH with a lie ! I do not need to research OTHER doctrines to find the TRUTH, God has revealed it to me!
God being ONE, DID NOT COME FROM sabellianism!!! it came from GOD HIMSELF!! YOU are a very confused person ! YOU are not getting your information from the right source! YOU had better go to GOD HIMSELF, and pray that HE open your eyes to the TRUTH OF HIS WORD and not someone elses opinion.
**If you think the apostles taught AGAINST ONE GOD YOU are NOT reading the right book or your mind is so full of other garbage that you can't see the pure word of GOD and you are spiritually blind.**
You can think I'm being cruel if you choose but I can't stand to hear and read such junk ,where satan uses people like you to try to deceive the simple minded. But know this one thing IT IS NOT POSSIBLE FOR SATAN TO DECIEVE THE ELECT OF GOD.
THE APOSTLES DID NOT TEACH TRINITY !!!!!!!!!!
Don't try to throw that trinity stuff on the Apostles......People need to learn to take Gods word for what it is, and stop trying to compare it to "peoples opinions"
AMEN

[not4gotton]

Amen! EnterHisPresence ! Glad you put this here ! If a person can't understand that they are blind ! Jesus is the MIGHTY GOD AND THE EVERLASTING FATHER !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
The Spirit that WAS and IS in the FLESH of JESUS is GOD.
GOD in CHRIST ONE (1) SPIRIT !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[EnterHisPresence]

In order to understand the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, we must first realize that no matter what one believes, father and son are not names, but titles. My dad was both a father and son, but he had a name. It's imperitive that we know the name of God.

Just as when I was born, I took on my fathers name, so too did Jesus the man, take on His fathers name. Heb 1:4 Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.
There is one God with 3 manifestations, not 3 seperate persons. (1) God as father in creation (2) God in flesh which is the redemptive plan and (3) God as the Holy Spirit in how He deals with humanity.

Col 2:8-9 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ. For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

The jewish people did not accept Jesus as the Messiah, because He did not do what they "thought" He would do. They believed that the Messiah would stand up as king and save them from...at that time...the bonds of the Roman Empire. They do not accept Jesus today, because most Christian's teach a false doctrine of 3 persons in the Godhead. Even the Jews know that God is One.

[blueheron32]

Well said germanjoy..:-)
blue

[blueheron32]

Not4gotten....

If I could make a suggestion... you need to tone down your responses when someone disagrees with you..this is an open forum, and the opinions of all christians are welcome here, not just the ones you happen to agree with. Germanjoys post is entirely within the bounds of accepted christian doctrine, and was posted with no sign of animosity towards you. The tone of your response was completely uncalled for.. If you wish to continue posting here, please give others the same courtesy you wish to receive. thanks..:-)

blueheron32

[EnterHisPresence]

Blue,
I think his/her response wasn't meant as animosity, however Not4gotten, if I may suggest using the underline button, instead of using caps; caps are considered as yelling and therefore won't be received as well as it would/should be.

[not4gotton]

Again Amen! EnterHisPresence!

[not4gotton]

Thank you for sharing that with me !

[germanJoy]

Speaking of Jesus, Isa 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The Everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

Just for thought...why would Jesus be called the everlasting father?
I have already made a very clear explanation in the german language of the subject matter and I will try to translate it into English. So bear with me if I commit mistakes with my translations. :-)

"Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God is ONE LORD. Deuteronomy 6:4

The bible in this verse emphatically states that there is only one God. (Mark 12:29). Literally, the verses says, "Hear, O Israel: Jehovah our Elohim is a united Jehovah." (dxa hwhy wnyhla hwhy larvy ems 4).

The word "one" in Hebrew has two meanings: "Echad" (plural noun with singular verb) and "Yahud" (singular noun with singular verb).

One finds the word "Elohim" (God's name) only in the Hebrew language and not in any other Semitical language. "ECHAD" ELOHIM is mentioned 2000 times in the bible. "Echad" Elohim stresses unity while recognizing diversity with that oneness. The same word is used in Genesis 2:24, Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife and they shall be one (Echad) flesh. Exodus 24:3, states "All the people answered with one (Echad) voice, and said... Note that all the people, which as a great multitude replied with one voice. There are many other incidences when the word is used to show the oneness of many individuals. In other words the Hebrew word Echad allows for plurality within oneness, allowing that God, who is emphatically described as being one God to be three Persons who make up our one God.

The other Hebrew word which means also "one" is Yahud. This word is always SINGULAR and can only mean ONE allowing NO PLURALITY. God could have used this word "Yahud" in Deuteronomy 6:4, but chose Echad instead which allows the concept of God being One God who is in essence three individual Persons.

Jesus said: I (the Son) and the Father (in heaven sitting on the throne) are ONE.. He never said: "I am the Father and the Father is Me." Here Jesus emphasized His being "one" with the Father in purpose, in nature (God, Creator, Omniscient, Eternal Father, etc.) in unity and not as a unit. Isaiah 9:6 (widely used by Oneneess to support their stand) "the Son called as the Eternal Father" confirms the prophecy of Rev. 14:1 And I looked, and behold, the Lamb was standing on Mount Zion, and with Him 144,000, having His name and the name of His Father on their foreheads. This is why THE LAMB is CALLED THE ETERNAL FATHER.

The very reason why Jesus is not the Father in heaven but THE SON is because it IS WRITTEN so from the beginning until the end in the bible.

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. Oneness teaching tend to cut the underline scriptures or give explanation that it is "IN" God not "with".

Matt. 22:44 - ...The Lord (the Father) said to my Lord (the Son) "Sit at My right hand, until I put Thine enemies beneath Thy feet." The Father communicates to the Son and the Son communicates to the Father. Oneness implies Jesus communicates to Jesus.

Jesus is seen as the Son sitting at the right hand of the Father in HEAVEN according to scriptures. Oneness cannot reconcile this teaching. Confusion brought into their minds that Jesus is sitting beside Jesus or that no one is sitting beside God, Jesus sits alone on the throne.




He confirmed in many occassions His disntinctive attributes as the Son of the Living God

[OneVoice]

German Joy,
Well done!
Have you ever read Josh McDowell?
&quot;More than a Crpenter&quot;
&quot;A ready Defense&quot;
&quot;Evidence that Demands a Verdict&quot;

In &quot;More than a Carpenter&quot;
Josh discusses why the Phasees hated Jesus and the words that reall angered them.
These were &quot;I and the Father are one&quot; and that the &quot;one&quot; was not a specific or individual &quot;one&quot; but and term of essemce. Being the exact same nature of, the same as. And there being none like God He had to be claiming He was God incarnate.
God The Son.

God the Father he prayed to and obeyed.
God the Son He died for us.
God the Spirit He returns to dewll in our hearts.

That with what you have said so magnifies Him.
What and Awesome God we serve.

Thanks again for what you gave!
OneVoice

[not4gotton]

germanJoy
the word one in the verse "Hear, O Isreal:The Lord our God is One Lord"
having two meanings which is true. But how is it that you can choose which meaning you want to use in this verse.
Isa.9:6 tells us exactly which def.that God ment to be used here .Gods word always explains itsself, line upon line precept upon precept.
You also said, which is true, that the word Echad is used in reference to the joining of Flesh. That is why that def. is used in Gen.2:24. Its speaking about the flesh joining. And again in Exodus 24:3 same word(Echad) flesh joining their voices in unity.

These are your words,which are true!
The other Hebrew word which means also "one" is Yahud. This word is always SINGULAR and can only mean ONE allowing NO PLURALITY.
God, who is emphatically described as being one God.
*This is the word used to describe the word ONE in Gen.2:24
**God being one spirit(Yahud) joined in unity (Echad) with the Flesh that He created to dwell in while hear on earth.**
Since you seem to want to keep things seperate, lets keep the word Echad as it is. Meaning the joining of two seperate people ( flesh joining flesh, not flesh and spirit)
Again>The word Yahud meaning One (singular)which is God<one spirit, joined in unity(Echad) with His Flesh.
When God breathed into man, the spirit entered into flesh and they became a living soul. One preson! 1 spirit + 1 flesh = 1 soul
I am not talking about Echad, where two flesh becomes one. I am talking about spirit and flesh.
The word ( Echad) is used in Genesis 2:24, Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife and they shall be one (Echad) flesh. Exodus 24:3, states "All the people answered with one (Echad) voice, and said... Note that all the people, which as a great multitude replied with one voice. There are many other incidences when the word is used to show the oneness of many individuals.

One finds the word "Elohim" (God's name) only in the Hebrew language and not in any other Semitical language. "ECHAD" ELOHIM is mentioned 2000 times in the bible. "Echad" Elohim stresses unity while recognizing diversity
*Elohim(which is God) joined in unity(Echad) with His flesh*
*Remember we have got to keep Gods word rightly divided *

Jesus said: I (the Son, also meaning his flesh) and the Father (meaning GOD ,which is a spirit) are ONE. God was in Christ to reconcile the world unto HIMSELF. GOD being spirit, Jesus being flesh. Echad" Elohim stresses unity while recognizing diversity with that oneness.
Rev.14:1> And I looked, and behold, the Lamb was standing on Mount Zion, and with Him 144,000, having His name (and) the name of His Father on their foreheads. ( and, also the name of God his Father) God the Spirit)is also called the Father because He was First ,Jesus being called the son because he being created by the SPIRIT < God >was created afterward.
Our Fathers are our fathers because they were here first ! and we were produced by them.thats why we are sons and daughters!
John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God. * the word was made flesh*
Matt. 22:44 - ...The Lord (the Father) said to my Lord (the Son) "Sit at My right hand, until I put Thine enemies beneath Thy feet." (the Spirit,which is the Father,speaking to the flesh (the Son,Jesus)
*Elohim and Echad*
You said >Oneness implies Jesus communicates to Jesus.<You do not understand what oneness is....you've got to get it organized in your mind to understand it. Oneness implies God (the Father,And the One Spirit) speaking to the Son(fleshly man Jesus) Yes !! God does does talk to Himself,and his attributes.
**You said**>Jesus is seen as the Son sitting at the right hand of the Father in HEAVEN according to scriptures. Oneness cannot reconcile this teaching. Confusion brought into their minds that Jesus is sitting beside Jesus or that no one is sitting beside God, Jesus sits alone on the throne.

The reason that Jesus is SEEN sitting on the right hand of the Father Is because GOD is a SPIRIT WE cannot see a spirit, BUT we can see the flesh which is Jesus.Thats why Jesus is SEEN and Not God, the Father!
"You said, "the oneness cannot reconcile this teaching"
Well I just did !!!!

[not4gotton]

To correct a chapter and verse.
I put>*This is the word used to describe the word ONE in Gen.2:24
But it should have been> * This is the word used (Yahud)to describe the word ONE in Deuteronomy 6:4*
Instead of Gen.2:2

[proskyno]

I do not believe in the Trinity and this troubles me greatly about most every modern Christian religion.

I could analyze every verse, every word, every argument made for the Trinity....and it comes back to that fact that I don't see any real support of it in the Bible. It's based on tradition, not scripture.

There is God Almighty - the Father - YHWH / JHVH - Jehovah or Yahweh
This is God....the only one we should pray to and the one we should praise, just like Jesus did.

There is Jesus his son. He is not the same as God, was created by God. he existed before Abraham and based on Hebrews first few chapters and many other places in the Bible - God loves him dearly. We should too - we all know what Jesus has done for us.

There is the holy spirit. This is mentioned in the Bible when God the Father uses his force, his power, on earth. We are filled with the holy spirit on baptism. The holy spirit. The holy spirit is never a seperate entity.....when Jesus sits at God's right hand - the holy spirit isn't mentioned.

[blueheron32]

not4gotten...

Im having a little problem here...maybe I am just a little dense or something, but according to my strongs, the word translated as "one" is the same hebrew word in both Genesis 2:24, and Deut 6:4. number 259, echad ...neither is yahud.

blue.

[germanJoy]

not4gotton, sorry to tell you that you failed to reconcile the teaching of Oneness. This will never reconcile with the TRUTH because it is a LIE and will remain so. And I tell you why:

Lie: The reason that Jesus is SEEN sitting on the right hand of the Father Is because GOD is a SPIRIT WE cannot see a spirit, BUT we can see the flesh which is Jesus.Thats why Jesus is SEEN and Not God, the Father!


Truth: But being full of the Holy Spirit, he (Stephan) gazed intently into heaven and saw the glory of God, and Jesus (the Son) standing at the right hand of God (the Father); and he said: "Behold, I see the heavens, opened up and the Son of Man (Jesus) standing at the right hand of God (the Father).

Hey, this HEAVENLY SCENE was seen (with physical eyes) by Stephan while still on earth. Do you know why Jesus was standing at that time? He was APPLAUSING for Stephan.

Stop this lie (Jesus is the Father) and believe the truth (Jesus is the Son of the Living God) for in it is ETERNAL LIFE. You are the Christ, the Son of the Living God. Upon this rock (of revelation) I (Jesus) will build My church and no gates of hell (lies) shall PREVAIL against it!!!

[germanJoy]

Quote. The original Hebrew word for "God," here and throughout the account of creation, is Elohim, which actually indicates more than one being. It is the plural form of Hebrew Eloah, which in English means "Mighty One." So Elohim "Mighty Ones" --more than just one person.

Elohim is a collective noun, such as "church", "family", or "kingdom". In other words, Elohim stands for a single class composed of two or more individuals. Unquote from bibletools.org

[not4gotton]

Truth: But being full of the Holy Spirit, he (Stephan) gazed intently into heaven and (saw the glory of God,) and Jesus (the Son) standing at the right hand of God (the Father); and he said: "Behold, I see the heavens, opened up and the Son of Man (Jesus) standing at the right hand of God (the Father).

Now go on down to to v.59 Acts 7 >And they stoned Stephan,(calling upon God,) and saying,( Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.)
Stephan was calling on God, yet it says that he was saying Lord Jesus receive my spirit.** Stephan Was talking to God when he said: Lord Jesus receive my spirit.**

Yes it is true ! Stephan saw the (Glory of God ) but not God.
scripture also tells us that John 1-18 "No man hath seen God at any time;the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.
Jesus being in bosom of the Father (the Spirit)

Do you say that John 1-8 is a lie because it do not agree with what you think?
The fact of the matter is you are either spiritually blind,( because you can't seem to see that God is a Spirit.) Or perhaps God Himself has blinded your eyes to believe a lie and be damned.

Another thing that lets me understand that trinity is "strange doctrine' is the fact that you all say that there are three "persons" the Father ,the Son, and the Holy Spirit......if there were three (which theres not)
the Father is a Spirit, the Holy Spirit is also a Spirit, and your trying to make persons out of them......I don't understand why you can't see that a spirit is a spirit.
You said >Hey, this HEAVENLY SCENE was seen (with physical eyes) by Stephan while still on earth. Do you know why Jesus was standing at that time? He was APPLAUSING for Stephan. I agree..!

If you can't see that the Spirit of God (one God) was in Jesus Christ.
Then only God can open your eyes, and if He chooses to let you believe a lie and be damned then so be it, Hes the Judge!
The words that I have told you are the truth I lie not God being my witness.
What I have told you will either be a witness for you ( if you believed,) or against you,( because you believe not)

You said that my words is a lie.. because I said:
The reason that Jesus is SEEN sitting on the right hand of the Father Is because GOD is a SPIRIT WE cannot see a spirit, BUT we can see the flesh which is Jesus.Thats why Jesus is SEEN and Not God, the Father!
*Do you think Im not telling the truth because I say that God is a spirit?*
*Do you say that the scripture is not truth when it says "That God WAS in Christ" reconciling the world to HIMSELF?

You quoted:
You are the Christ, the Son of the Living God. Upon this rock I (Jesus) will build My church and no gates of hell (lies) shall PREVAIL against it!!!

Amen to that ! Jesus Is the Son of God! and ALSO God was IN Christ (the ONE Spirit)(singular) .... can you deny that?

[not4gotton]

proskyno
If I did not know for a fact that God ( the Spirit) was in Christ. I would totally agree with you... a little more study and you will be able to see the difference in the Spirit and the Flesh...May God Bless You !

[not4gotton]

This will be the end of my discussion on this subject.
But this one (singular) thing I will add: Even the devils have the knowledge to know that there is ONE GOD (which is a Spirit,which is also the Father)

James 2:19 > Thou believest that there is ONE God; thou doest well; the devils also believe, and tremble. So even the devil has the sense to know the truth!

Mark 12:13 > And the scribe said unto him, (Jesus) Well,Master,thou hast said THE TRUTH: Fof there is ONE God; and there is none other than he:
v.34 >And when Jesus saw that he answered discreetly, he said unto him,Thou art not far from the kingdom of God.

[OneVoice]

Hello every one,
I've just found my faith in religion and I'm really confused about a few things and hope that you can help me?

The catholic church says that we believe in the trinity but in the bible there is no trinity?

Who do you believe God is? A spirit or jesus christ? Is Jesus Christ God?
Would some one kindly talk to me about how a christian life should be led?

I appreciate any advice. :-)


Behold the Trinity. God the Father Speaking Of
God the Son who was baptised
God the Holy Spirit who rested on Jesus to identify Him as the Son of God as God spoke about His Son.

MATTHEW 3:16-1816As soon as Jesus was baptized, he went up out of the water. At that moment heaven was opened, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and lighting on him. 17And a voice from heaven said, "This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased."

There they all three are in one place. You will not find the word trinity in the bible. But you will see the tree of them there. What an awesome family portrait!

You won't find the word "communion" in the chapters of the gospels describing it, and yet we know that this last supper is the first communion.
Another portrait is found in Genesis 1 and John 1You see God creating in Genesis. And you see the Spirit moving over the surface of the water in Genesis. But in John 1 we see 1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2He was with God in the beginning. 3Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. 4In him was life, and that life was the light of men. 5The light shines in the darkness, but the darkness has not understood[a] it. 1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2He was with God in the beginning. 3Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. 4In him was life, and that life was the light of men. 5The light shines in the darkness, but the darkness has not understood[a] it. ...1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2He was with God in the beginning. 3Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. 4In him was life, and that life was the light of men. 5The light shines in the darkness, but the darkness has not understood[a] it. 14The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only,[d] who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.
... 14The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only,[d] who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.
Jesus came in God's authority with the authority of God. They are all God. They are all three in One. It might not fit in yo head, but put it in your heart where you trust in Jesus and it will fit just fine.

[momiluv46]

God is the Father, Jesus is the Son and then there is the Holy Spirit.

[germanJoy]

This will be the end of my discussion on this subject.
But this one (singular) thing I will add: Even the devils have the knowledge to know that there is ONE GOD (which is a Spirit,which is also the Father)

James 2:19 > Thou believest that there is ONE God; thou doest well; the devils also believe, and tremble. So even the devil has the sense to know the truth!

Mark 12:13 > And the scribe said unto him, (Jesus) Well,Master,thou hast said THE TRUTH: Fof there is ONE God; and there is none other than he:
v.34 >And when Jesus saw that he answered discreetly, he said unto him,Thou art not far from the kingdom of God.
You cannot end a discussion by condemning the BELIEVERS of God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit for you will find yourself going against God Himself.

You have rightly said that even the demons believed in ONE God but they remain demons, unsaved. So what makes you think that just because you preach ONE God, you will be saved?

The point here is, not4gotton, that was exactly the VERY REASON why Jesus Christ was REJECTED by the unbelieving jews because of their ONE GOD (numerical) belief. For them, NO WAY can a mere MAN claim that he is God because THERE IS ONLY ONE GOD and this God is their Creator/Father in heaven. They have not understood the TRUE NATURE of God. ONLY I emphasize ONLY IF the HOLY SPIRIT would reveal to them (that Jesus Christ is the Son of the Father and to say otherwise is not from the Holy Spirit), THEN and THEN they are able to UNDERSTAND AND BELIEVE exactly like what had happened to Peter. Now, Satan discovered a CUNNING TRICK to make the "BELIEVERS" unbelieving and UNBELIEVERS more unbelieving by saying that Jesus Christ is the ONE God who is the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. But this is a lie, this is not what the Scripture tells us who Jesus Christ is all the way from the Old Testatment to the New Testament. There was no single word written that Jesus Christ is the Father in heaven. Therefore all the cultic religions in the world cannot receive the revelation because they ALSO (like the Oneness does) WANT TO SEE just ONE GOD (numerical). John the Beloved TRIED to make a very CLEAR and CAREFUL explanation of the Son of God by writing "the Word was with God. He was in the beginning with God." Thus, Jesus Christ is also called "I am", "Creator", "Word of God", etc.

The first earthly appearance of the TRIUNE GOD can be read in Matthew 3:16-17 And after being baptized, Jesus went up immediately from the water, and behold, the heavens were opened, and He saw the Spirit of God descending as a dove, and coming upon Him, and behold a voice out of the heavens, saying, "This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well-pleased." Now please I BEG YOU to MEDITATE on this verse and GET RID of the NEW TEACHING of who Jesus Christ is.

I say NEW TEACHING because it was NEVER TAUGHT either by Jesus Christ or by any of the Apostles of Jesus Christ.

Trinity is a MYSTERY, one cannot make a MYSTERY logical... it takes REVELATION AND FAITH to believe in this MYSTERY. And by common confession great is the mystery of GODLINESS: He who was revealed in the flesh, Was vindicated in the Spirit, Beheld by angels, Proclaimed among the nations, Believed on in the world, Taken up in glory.

Last but not least, Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God; and whoever loves the Father loves the child born of Him. 2 John 5:1

For there are three that bear witness, the Spirit and the water and the blood; and the three are in agreement....The one who believes in the Son of God has the witness in himself; the one who does not believe God has made Him a liar, because he has not believed in the witness that God has borne concerning His Son. 2 John 5:8-10

If Oneness has to be consistent with their teachings, then they need TO CHANGE OR DELETE these verses and many other verses concerning the Son of God in the bible.

I do not condemn you but I CONDEMN THE WRONG TEACHING that has confused your mind regarding the mystical revelation about the Son of the Living God.

[SIMPLEOBSERVATION]

Here's my best description of the Trinity:

God has three aspects to his existence. First, God is God. He is everything that is. He is the GREAT I AM.

Then there is Jesus, God who made himself man, to dwell among men, so that people can know him more on a personal level. And of course the biggest thing is he died for our sins so that we may be saved.

Then there is God's spirit, that dwells in all Christians. This is his voice.

It's hard to understand how God can be all three things at once, it's really beyond our comprehension. But just because we can't understand it, doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

[TheCowExpert]

Actually, the Bible does say there is a Trinity. Maybe not flat out, but please ready this following verse:Genesis 1:26a,"And God said, Let US make man in OUR own image....." If God was just starting to create man, then who was He talking to? I believe He was talking to the other two parts of Himself....or else, collectively, the Trinity. It's hard for us to understand, but this is the best illustration I've heard.... Okay, so water can be three things~ water, gas, and steam. It's all the same substance, just in a different form. Hope this helped ;)

[TheCowExpert]

NO!!!!!! there is ONE Spirit....ONE Flesh <the man Christ Jesus) the Spirit that was, and is, in Jesus is GOD. ONE GOD ....NOT THREE......the Holy Ghost is the same SPIRIT.....that dwells in mankind

GOD
IN
Christ
And
Christ
IN
US....> that is, those of us who have the Holy Ghost ....which is Gods Spirit in us
Jesus is called the SON because >>God,the Father was First,then he created the FLESHLY body that is called Jesus Christ. The Spirit of GOD dwells in that Body!!!
Just like everyone of us has A Spirit AND A BODY...
Jesus became the sacrifice for us.......and because of what HE DID IF we obey HIS Word and REPENT, AND BE BAPTIZED IN JESUS NAME, FOR THE REMISSION OF THOSE SINS, then He WILL completely do away with THOSE SINS THAT WERE REMITTED, WITH HIS BLOOD !
IF we do not obey the plan for salvation that God has made for us then we will NOT be covered by HIS BLOOD.
WHEN we OBEY then we enter into HIS GRACE.
IT was grace that He had for us ...thats why He (GOD IN CHRIST) became the sacrifice for our sins.......but that GRACE has to be entered into, thru obeying HIS WORD!
When Jesus died IT was as if HE said" here is my GRACE come and partake of it"...
IT IS simple I don't know why people try to complicate GODS WORD!
IF A person can't see that there is ONLY ONE SPIRIT, THAT IS GOD then something is blinding their eyes.
Wait a second! Woah, you sure were.....emphatic about that. You're right when you say there is only one Sprit, but it doesn't say that there is only one part of God. There IS ONE GOD, but there are three parts to this one God. If you read my earlier post, it will give the demonsration of water and stuff. Okay, so as we know Jesus, he was the part of God that came down in the human form, and God is the Spirit we can not see nor will ever see. The Holy Spirit is part of God, who is the third part of the trinity, and I know that there is a Holy Spirit who is a part of God, but is not God the Father, because it dwells within me and guides me every single day. I don't know if when you were told about the Trinity, you were mixed up, but ppl that believe the Trinity don't believe there are three Gods, but three parts to God.

[EnterHisPresence]

Just to say something on what you and other's have said..."It's hard for us to understand," or in other words it's confussing. 1Co 14:33 For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints. What I don't get, because you all on a seperate post...the one on why we don't use the name of God, speak the truth, yet you can't see it with you own eyes. There is only one God! NOT 3 seperate people, but 3 distinct manifestations of the One. Your illustration says the very same thing...water (I'm pretty sure it's usually said) ice, and steam, it's still the same thing H2O. It's not 3 seperate elements/chemicals. It's only one element, with 3 different manifestations. How hard is that to comprehend? I did like the one vs that someone mentioned about God is one..and used the hebrew Echad with the definition, that one/Echad is always used as "unity" or "united" and that is exactly true...if you'll notice all throughout the OT, God showed Himself differently to different people...always just what they were needing at the time...He revealed Himself as the God that Heals, God our Rightousness, Father, the I AM, He is all those things...but He is only One/Single. Everything that He revealed about Himself in the OT, is revealed in Jesus, in the NT. Jesus said I and my father are One. Jesus IS the father. Joh 14:10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works. Jesus IS the Son, and Jesus IS the Holy Spirit.

Col 2:1 For I would that ye knew what great conflict I have for you, and for them at Laodicea, and for as many as have not seen my face in the flesh; 2 That their hearts might be comforted, being knit together in love, and unto all riches of the full assurance of understanding, to the acknowledgement of the mystery of God, and of the Father, and of Christ; 3 In whom are hid all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge. 4 And this I say, lest any man should beguile you with enticing words. 5 For though I be absent in the flesh (Messiah), yet am I with you in the spirit (Holy Ghost), joying and beholding your order, and the stedfastness of your faith in Christ. 6 As ye have therefore received Christ Jesus the Lord (Messiah), so walk ye in him: 7 Rooted and built up in him, and stablished in the faith, as ye have been taught, abounding therein with thanksgiving. 8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ. (hhmm maybe doctrine of the trinity?) 9 For in him (Messiah) dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. 10 And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power: 11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ: 12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

Since some are good with definitions, lets take a look at some.
Yeshua HaMashiach which means Jesus the annointed one or Jesus the Savior/Messiah...the Messiah is the body/flesh/human manifestation of God

Have you ever wondered why in Joh 18:6 it says that they fell away? It's because Jesus claimed that He was the "I AM." He was saying that He was God.

[germanJoy]

Enter, your belief that Jesus is the Father... is what makes believers confused because it was neither claimed by Jesus nor taught by the apostles and nowhere was it written in the bible. That speculation "Jesus is the Father" is the product of philosophical minds and vain deceit. You might have not read my last post to not4gotton:

The point here is, not4gotton, that was exactly the VERY REASON why Jesus Christ was REJECTED by the unbelieving jews because of their ONE GOD (numerical) belief. For them, NO WAY can a mere MAN claim that he is God because THERE IS ONLY ONE GOD and this God is their Creator/Father in heaven. They have not understood the TRUE NATURE of God. ONLY I emphasize ONLY IF the HOLY SPIRIT would reveal to them (that Jesus Christ is the Son of the Father and to say otherwise is not from the Holy Spirit), THEN and THEN were they able to UNDERSTAND AND BELIEVE exactly like what had happened to Peter. Now, Satan discovered a CUNNING TRICK to make the "BELIEVERS" unbelieving and UNBELIEVERS more unbelieving by saying that Jesus Christ is the ONE God who is the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. But this is a lie, this is not what the Scripture tells us who Jesus Christ is all the way from the Old Testatment to the New Testament. There was no single word written that Jesus Christ is the Father in heaven. Therefore all the cultic religions in the world cannot receive the revelation because they ALSO (like the Oneness does) WANT TO SEE just ONE GOD (numerical). John the Beloved TRIED to make a very CLEAR and CAREFUL explanation of the Son of God by writing "the Word was with God. He was in the beginning with God." Thus, Jesus Christ is also called "I am", "Creator", "Word of God", etc.

The first earthly appearance of the TRIUNE GOD can be read in Matthew 3:16-17 And after being baptized, Jesus went up immediately from the water, and behold, the heavens were opened, and He saw the Spirit of God descending as a dove, and coming upon Him, and behold a voice out of the heavens, saying, "This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well-pleased." Now please I BEG YOU to MEDITATE on this verse and GET RID of that NEW TEACHING of who Jesus Christ is.

I say NEW TEACHING because it was NEVER TAUGHT either by Jesus Christ or by any of the Apostles of Jesus Christ.

Trinity is a MYSTERY, one cannot make a MYSTERY logical... it takes REVELATION AND FAITH to believe in this MYSTERY. And by common confession great is the mystery of GODLINESS: He who was revealed in the flesh, Was vindicated in the Spirit, Beheld by angels, Proclaimed among the nations, Believed on in the world, Taken up in glory.

Last but not least, Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God; and whoever loves the Father loves the child born of Him. 2 John 5:1

For there are three that bear witness, the Spirit and the water and the blood; and the three are in agreement....The one who believes in the Son of God has the witness in himself; the one who does not believe God has made Him a liar, because he has not believed in the witness that God has borne concerning His Son. 2 John 5:8-10

If Oneness has to be consistent with their teachings, then they need TO CHANGE OR DELETE these verses and many other verses concerning the Son of God in the bible.

I do not condemn you but I CONDEMN THE WRONG TEACHING that has confused your mind regarding the mystical revelation about the Son of the Living God.

Do not make God a liar by not believing in the witness that God the Father has borne concerning His Son Jesus Christ!!! Believe it and stop confusing the believing minds that are obedient to Christ.

[Tamara224]

Col 2:4 And this I say, lest any man should beguile you with enticing words. 5 For though I be absent in the flesh (Messiah), yet am I with you in the spirit (Holy Ghost), joying and beholding your order, and the stedfastness of your faith in Christ. 6 As ye have therefore received Christ Jesus the Lord (Messiah), so walk ye in him.

EnterHisPresence what you are doing here is at the least intellectually dishonest, and maybe worse. Your comments on Colossians are messed up. These are not quotes of Christ - these are not His words. So to suggest that it is Christ speaking is wrong. The 'I' who is absent in the flesh is not Yeshua HaMashiach, it is Paul the Apostle. Likewise, the word 'spirit' used here is obviously not the Holy Spirit. The first indication of that is the fact that it is not Capitalized.

The rest of what you quoted, with your commentary, is spurious and conclusory with no foundation. You've interjected your comments into the text but have no support for them. Furthermore, you've set up strawmen in your arguments and made logical fallacies.

The concept of the Trinity is that God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit are all ONE GOD and THREE at the SAME TIME. Belief in the Trinity does not mean belief in three separate gods. It is a seeming paradox to human understanding. It is not confusing - it is just incomprehensible because it is beyond our understanding.

Jesus is God. Jesus was God before he became a man.
John 1:1-5 & 14
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning. Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. In him was life, and that life was the light of men. The light shines in the darkness, but the darkness has not understood it.*** The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.

This passage from John states unequivocally that Jesus is the Word, that the Word created "all things." If we turn to Genesis 1:1 we see that "In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth." So - Jesus is the Word who became flesh. But Jesus has always been with God and Jesus has always been God. He is both with God and God at the same time. However, Jesus is NOT the Father. He, the Holy Spirit and the Father are One - but they are Three as well.

What is difficult to comprehend about the Trinity is that we cannot wrap our minds completely around the idea that God is One and Three at once.

EnterHisPresence, you have offered arguments aimed at refuting something that is not the true concept of the Trinity. The concept of the Trinity is understood and accepted to be a basic tenent of Christianity. You have suggested that belief in the Trinity means believing that Jesus was not God. That is not true.

If you have to twist a teaching before you can offer proof against it - you have already lost your argument. FIRST, go back and figure out what the Trinity is; THEN if you still think it is wrong you can offer refutation. But your intellectual and possibly spiritual dishonesty is dangerous.

[Tamara224]

So this thread got me really thinking about things and I went searching on the internet...

I found a very interesting article by Grant Jeffrey on the issue of the Trinity. He found some enlightening things in his research about what ancient Jewish scholars thought about the Triune nature of God. Also he discussed a little about the history of this teaching since the time of Christ. He gave Biblical support for the doctrine of the Trinity and summed it all up very well.

Here's a small excerpt of his essay:
The Shema: "Hear O Israel, the Lord Our God Is One Lord."
Every religiously observant Jew makes a daily affirmation of his faith in speaking the Shema, the inspired words of Scripture, as recorded in Deuteronomy 6:4: "Hear O Israel, the Lord our God is one Lord." In these sacred words, the speaker first uses the singular name of God, hwhy "Jehovah," then the plural name, Myhla "our God" (strictly, "Gods"), and then again the singular name, hwhy "Jehovah," and concluded with dxa "One." Most people hearing this affirmation would assume that the simple meaning is a direct declaration that "there is only one God." This biblical statement does declare that there is only one God - a statement accepted whole heartedly by both Jews and Christians. However, as pointed out earlier in this chapter, the mysterious use of the plural name for God, Elohim Myhla, suggests that this passage also contains God's revelation of His mysterious nature as Three in One and One in Three. When I searched the ancient Jewish books that were written during the period from the return from the captivity in Babylon in 536 b.c. to the destruction of the Second Temple in a.d. 70 I was amazed to find that many prominent Jewish sages taught the mystery of the Trinity based on this very passage in Deuteronomy 6:4.

If anyone is interested in reading more:
http://www.grantjeffrey.com/article/chphnwr.htm

[EnterHisPresence]

GermanJoy,
I do love you with the love of the Lord, but I will have to disagree with you. I do pray that the eyes of your, and every other believer who doesn't understand the truth, understanding will be opened.

You said..."The point here is, not4gotton, that was exactly the VERY REASON why Jesus Christ was REJECTED by the unbelieving jews because of their ONE GOD (numerical) belief".... You are correct, in that they didn't accept Jesus/Yeshua as the messiah/christ, because they did not think that He came in the way in which the "expected." They were looking for a king, that would deliver them out of the hands of Rome (at that time). They were expecting a savior that would deliver them from their physical oppression. They were NOT looking for a Messiah that was to come for a spiritual nature. That is what happens when man looks to men for their teachings and not looking to God, as their source of enlightenment.
What I don't understand, is that most protestant faiths, discarded all most every teaching of the Catholic Church, because they searched the scriptures for themselves and realized the teachings were wrong. So, what I don't get, is why you hold on to the biggest lie that the CC created...the teachings of a trinity. That philosophy was never taught by any of the apostles. The part that you got right, is that the jewish people, doesn't accept Jesus/Yeshua as the Messiah, is because they believe that God is one. They will never accept that God is three persons. Because their belife teaches that WHEN the Messiah comes, He will be God come to earth.
Now I want to let you in on something that might help with your understanding. Everywhere in Scripture, that says both father and son in the verse, in reference to the father the early Christians understood it as God, as to the Son, they understood it to mean the human body, which is what was required for atonement. Jesus was God in a human body. God had to be a human, in order to be crucified. That, I think is where you all have problems with the oneness teahcings. You can't understand that the father was the one hanging on a cross. But let me assure you Daddy God was the one hanging on the cross. Have you ever wondered why Jesus as He was hanging on the cross cried out Mat 27:46 And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? The reason is because, at that very moment, the spirit of God left the body of Christ/Messiah. Why? Because God can not abide sin, and at that moment the passover lamb (Gods human body) took upon Himself all the sins of the world. Also. because God can not die. He had to leave the body, otherwise that body would still be living to this day. If you could just understand that God is the father and that Christ/Messiah is the human body, the concept of oneness would be so feasible. You would also realize why we don't need to...as you said "...need TO CHANGE OR DELETE these verses and many other verses concerning the Son of God in the bible". He is called the SON of God because the body was created/begotten, just as He is also called the SON of man.

[EnterHisPresence]

Oh my goodness. You are right in My Colossians statement of the first 5 verses. It is Paul speaking and not Christ. However I stick with my attention getters in the other verses. I do ask your forgiveness. In my excuse I don't know what I was thinking. I was going through not payin close enough attention to what parts I was pointing out. That will teach me to not try to do anything after taking sleeping pills. lol.

[EnterHisPresence]

Tamara, I am so glad that you caught that, as I did not go back and reread what I had written or I would have caught it myself. I am thankful that you caught it, because if you had not caught it...It would have stayed like that and someone who didn't know better would think it was just how I wrote it. I would never want that on my concsience. I would never intentianally mislead someone. Again, thank you and God bless.

[EnterHisPresence]

Tamara,
You said..."You have suggested that belief in the Trinity means believing that Jesus was not God. That is not true".

I did not say that trinitarians don't believe that Jesus is God, my implications are that you don't have the full understanding of who Jesus is.

The term "God the Father" is biblical and refers to God Himself Gal 1:3 Grace be to you and peace from God the Father, and from our Lord Jesus Christ, 4 Who gave himself for our sins, that he might deliver us from this present evil world, according to the will of God and our Father:
. God is the Father; He is not merely Father of the Son, but the Father of all creation (Mal 2:10 Have we not all one father? hath not one God created us? why do we deal treacherously every man against his brother, by profaning the covenant of our fathers? Heb 12:9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?). He is also our Father by reason of the new birth Rom 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God. 15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father. 16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: 17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.
. The title Father indicates a relationship between God and man, particularly between God and His Son and between God and regenerated man. Jesus taught many times that God is our Father Mat 5:16 Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.,see also Mat 5:45, 48). He taught us to pray, "Our Father which art in heaven" (Matthew 6:9). Of course, Jesus as a man had an additional relationship to God in a sense that no one else has ever had. He was the only begotten Son of the Father (John 3:16), the only One who was actually conceived by the Spirit of God and the only One who had the fulness of God without measure.

The Bible plainly states that there is only one Father Malachi 2:10; Eph 4:6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.
. It also clearly teaches that Jesus is the one Father incarnate Isa 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.; Joh 10:30 I and my Father are one. The Spirit that dwelt in the Son of God was none other than the Father.

It is important to note that the name of the Father is Jesus, for this name fully reveals and expresses the Father. In John 5:43, Jesus said, I am come in my Father's name.... According to Hebrews 1:4, the Son by inheritance obtained a more excellent name. In other words, the Son inherited His Father's name. We therefore understand why Jesus said that He manifested and declared the Father's name Joh 17:6 I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word., Joh 17:26 And I have declared unto them thy name, and will declare it: that the love wherewith thou hast loved me may be in them, and I in them. He fulfilled the Old Testament prophecy that stated the Messiah would declare the name of the LORD Psa 22:22 I will declare thy name unto my brethren: in the midst of the congregation will I praise thee.; Heb 2:12 Saying, I will declare thy name unto my brethren, in the midst of the church will I sing praise unto thee. In what name did the Son come? What name did He obtain from His Father by inheritance? What name did the Son manifest? The answer is apparent. The only name He used was the name of Jesus, His Father's name.

The Holy Spirit is simply God. God is holy (Leviticus 11:44; I Peter 1:16). In fact, He alone is holy in Himself. God is also a Spirit (John 4:24), and there is only one Spirit of God 1Co 12:11 But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will. ; Eph 4:4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling. (vs 5 and 6 describes that one body and one Spirit.) It is not a description of the trinity. It simply states there is one body- Jesus/Messiah, and one Spirit- God. Therefore, "Holy Spirit" is another term for the one God.

That the Holy Ghost is God is evident from a comparison of Acts 5:3 with 5:4 Act 5:3 But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back part of the price of the land? 4 Whiles it remained, was it not thine own? and after it was sold, was it not in thine own power? why hast thou conceived this thing in thine heart? thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God. and from a comparison of I Corinthians 3:16 with 6:19. 1Co 3:16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?1Co 6:19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own? These passages identify the Holy Ghost with God Himself.

We cannot limit the terms "Holy Ghost," "Holy Spirit," or "Spirit of God" to the New Testament, nor can we so limit the role or manifestation of God they describe. We find the Spirit mentioned throughout the Old Testament beginning with Genesis 1:2. Peter tells us that the prophets of old were moved by the Holy Ghost. 2Pe 1:21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

The Spirit is revealed and received through the name Jesus. He is not a separate person with a separate identity who comes in another name. Jesus said, "The Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name…" (John 14:26). So the Holy Ghost comes in the name of Jesus.

[EnterHisPresence]

The one God is Father of all, is holy, and is a Spirit. Therefore, the titles Father and Holy Spirit describe the same being. To put it another way, the one God can and does fill simultaneously the two roles of Father and Holy Spirit. The Scriptures bear this out.

1. John 3:16 says God is the Father of Jesus Christ and Jesus referred to the Father as His own Father many times (John 5:17-18). Yet Matthew 1:18-20 and Luke 1:35 plainly reveal that the Holy Ghost is the Father of Jesus Christ. According to these verses of Scripture, Jesus was conceived by the Holy Ghost and was born the Son of God as a result.

The one who causes conception to take place is the father. Since all verses of Scripture in reference to the conception or begetting of the Son of God speak of the Holy Ghost as the agent of conception, it is evident that the father of the human body is the Spirit; it is only reasonable to conclude that the Holy Ghost is the Father of Jesus Christ, the Son of God.

2. Joel 2:27-29 records the words of Jehovah God: "I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh." Peter applied this verse of Scripture to the baptism of the Holy Ghost on the Day of Pentecost (Acts 2:1-4,16-18). Thus the Holy Ghost is the Spirit of the one Jehovah God of the Old Testament. Since there is only one Spirit, obviously the Spirit of Jehovah must be the Holy Spirit.

3. The Bible calls the Holy Spirit the "Spirit of the LORD" (Isaiah 40:13), the Spirit of God (Genesis 1:2), and the Spirit of the Father (Matthew 10:20). Since there is only one Spirit, all these phrases must refer to the same being. The Holy Spirit is none other than Jehovah God and none other than the Father.

For further study of the identification of the Holy Ghost with the Father, consider the following comparisons from the Bible:

1. God the Father raised Jesus from the dead (Acts 2:24; Ephesians 1:17-20), yet the Spirit raised Jesus from the dead (Romans 8:11).

2. God the Father quickens (gives life to) the dead (Romans 4:17; I Timothy 6:13), yet the Spirit will do so (Romans 8:11).

3. The Spirit adopts us, which means He is our Father (Romans 8:15-16).

4. The Holy Spirit fills the life of a Christian (John 14:17; Acts 4:31), yet the Spirit of the Father fills hearts (Ephesians 3:14-16). It is the Father who lives in us (John 14:23).

5. The Holy Ghost is our Comforter (John 14:26, Greek parakletos), yet God the Father is the God of all comfort (paraklesis) who comforts (parakaleo) us in all our tribulation (II Corinthians 1:3-4).

6. The Spirit sanctifies us (I Peter 1:2), yet the Father sanctifies us (Jude 1).

7. All Scripture is given by inspiration of God (II Timothy 3:16), yet the Old Testament prophets were moved by the Holy Ghost (II Peter 1:21).

8. Our bodies are temples of God (I Corinthians 3:16-17), yet they are temples of the Holy Ghost (I Corinthians 6:19).

9. The Spirit of the Father will give us words to say in time of persecution (Matthew 10:20), but the Holy Ghost will do so (Mark 13:11).

From all these verses of Scripture we conclude that Father and Holy Ghost are simply two different descriptions of the one God. The two terms describe the same being but they emphasize or highlight different aspects, roles, or functions that He possesses.

The Holy Spirit is called the Spirit of Jesus Christ (Philippians 1:19). and the Spirit of the Son (Galatians 4:6). Second Corinthians 3:17 says of the one Spirit, "Now the Lord is that Spirit." The NIV puts it even plainer, for it says, "Now the Lord is the Spirit," and "the Lord who is the Spirit" (verse 18). In short, the Spirit that is resident in Jesus Christ is none other than the Holy Spirit. The Spirit in the Son is the Holy Spirit.

Below are some parallel verses of Scripture which further reveal that the Spirit of Christ is the Holy Ghost.

1. The Spirit of Christ was in the prophets of old (I Peter 1:10-11), yet we know the Holy Ghost moved on them (II Peter 1:21).

2. Jesus will raise the believer from death (John 6:40), yet the Spirit will quicken (give life to) the dead (Romans 8:11).

3. The Spirit raised Christ from the dead (Romans 8:9-11), yet Jesus said He would raise Himself from the dead (John 2:19-21).

4. John 14:16 says the Father would send another Comforter, namely the Holy Ghost, yet in John 14:18 Jesus said, "I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you." In other words, the other Comforter is Jesus in another form - in the Spirit rather than the flesh. Jesus explained this in verse 17, saying that the Comforter was with the disciples already, but He would soon be in them. In other words, the Holy Ghost was with them in the person of Jesus Christ, but the Holy Ghost, the Spirit of Jesus Christ, soon would be in them. Jesus further explained this point in John 16:7, saying that He had to go away or else the Comforter would not come. Why? As long as Jesus was present with them in the flesh He would not he present spiritually in their hearts, but after He physically departed He would send back His own Spirit to he with them.

5. The Holy Ghost abides in the hearts of Christians (John 14:16), yet Jesus promised that He would abide with His followers to the end of the world (Matthew 28:20). Similarly, believers are filled with the Holy Ghost (Acts 2:4, 38), yet it is Christ who dwells in us (Colossians 1:27).

6. Ephesians 3:16-17 says that by having the Spirit in the inner man we have Christ in our hearts.

7. Christ sanctifies the Church (Ephesians 5:26), yet the Spirit does (I Peter 1:2).

8. The Holy Ghost is the promised parakletos in John 14:26 (Greek word translated "Comforter" by the KJV), yet Jesus is our parakletos in I John 2:1 (same Greek word translated "advocate" in the KJV). We should note that the same human writer - the Apostle John - penned both of these verses, so presumably he was aware of the parallel.

9. The Spirit is our intercessor (Romans 8:26), yet Jesus is our intercessor (Hebrews 7:25).

10. The Holy Ghost will give us words to say in times of persecution (Mark 13:11), yet Jesus said He would do so (Luke 21:15).

11. In Acts 16:6-7, the RSV and NIV both equate the Holy Spirit with the Spirit of Jesus.

It is clear that the terms Father, Son, and Holy Ghost cannot imply three separate persons, personalities, wills, or beings. They can only denote different aspects or roles of one Spirit-being - the one God. They describe God's relationships to man, not persons in a Godhead. We use Father to emphasize God's roles as Creator, Father of spirits, Father of the born-again believers, and Father of the humanity of Jesus Christ. We use Son to mean both the humanity of Jesus Christ and God as He manifested Himself in the flesh for the purpose of man's salvation. We use Holy Ghost to emphasize God's active power in the world and among men, particularly His work in regeneration.

We should note that these three titles are not the only ones God has. Many other titles or names for God are very significant and appear frequently in the Bible, including terms such as LORD (Jehovah), Lord, Word, God Almighty, and Holy One of Israel. The oneness view does not deny Father, Son, or Holy Ghost, but it does refute the view that these terms designate persons in the Godhead. God has many titles, but He is one being. He is indivisible as to His existence, but His revelation of Himself to mankind has been expressed through many channels, including His revelation as the Father, in the Son, and as the Holy Ghost.

I certainly hopes this helps to enlighten each and everyone.

[EnterHisPresence]

Job 13:8 Will ye accept his person? will ye contend for God? :9 Is it good that he should search you out? or as one man mocketh another, do ye so mock him? 10 He will surely reprove you, if ye do secretly accept persons.

The Lord our God is one, and His name is Jesus. He revealed Himself as Jehovah in the OT and He reveals His name in the NT as Yeshua/Jesus, which means Jehovah (our) Saviour.

I want it made known/clear that I do not argue theology- I merely trying to persuade everyone to think, and to let God reveal His truth. There are certain doctrines that I believe that I have to uphold to and not waver in my teachings. Jud 1:3 Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints. This is one of those foundational truths that I can't ignore.

[germanJoy]

Job 13:8 Will ye accept his person? will ye contend for God? :9 Is it good that he should search you out? or as one man mocketh another, do ye so mock him? 10 He will surely reprove you, if ye do secretly accept persons.

The Lord our God is one, and His name is Jesus. He revealed Himself as Jehovah in the OT and He reveals His name in the NT as Yeshua/Jesus, which means Jehovah (our) Saviour.

I want it made known/clear that I do not argue theology- I merely trying to persuade everyone to think, and to let God reveal His truth. There are certain doctrines that I believe that I have to uphold to and not waver in my teachings. Jud 1:3 Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints. This is one of those foundational truths that I can't ignore.

EnterHisPresence, the faith which was once delivered unto the saints is this:

THOU ART MY SON
TODAY I HAVE BEGOTTEN THEE
I WILL BE A FATHER TO HIM
AND HE SHALL BE A SON TO ME.
AND LET ALL THE ANGELS OF GOD WORSHIP HIM.

Heb. 1:5-6 God the Father speaks about God the Son. If Jesus is the Father, who is the Son here? Who will be a Father to Him? Clearly, Jesus Christ is IDENTIFIED (in heaven and on the earth) as the SON OF GOD and not the FATHER IN HEAVEN. I challenge you to give me a Scripture that says otherwise and I will believe your theory.

Again, ....through the resurrection of Jesus Christ who is at the right hand of God.... 1 Peter 3:22 If Jesus is the Father, who is sitting at the right hand of Jesus?

And again, and He (Jesus) has made us to be a kingdom, priests to His God and Father; to Him be the glory and the dominion forever and ever. Amen Rev. 1:6 Even in Revelations, Jesus never ceased to be the SON OF GOD. He who overcomes shall thus be clothed in white garments; and I will not erase his name from the book of life, and I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels. Rev. 3:5 If you deny the IDENTITY of the Father of Jesus Christ (since you don't believe His distinct personality) to whom will Jesus then confess your name?

God the Father is calling us to have fellowship with His Son Jesus Christ.
God is faithful, through whom you were called into fellowship with His Son, Jesus Christ our Lord.

I have given explanation to why Jesus is called the "Everlasting Father" in Isaiah in reference to Revelation on my other post. Rev. 14:1.... the Lamb with Him the 144,000 having His name (the Lamb's) and the name of His Father (the Lamb's Father) on their foreheads.

Now, this will not prove Oneness but only tells us that Jesus in the end will call us His children because He is our God (therefore He is addressed as Eternal Father). But it does not I repeat IT DOES NOT nullify the relationship of Jesus and God the Father (since Jesus continually sits at the right hand of God the Father). He who overcomes shall inherit these things, and I will be his God and he will be My son. Rev. 21:7 Thus, Jesus is called Everlasting Father.

Oneness has problems of picking up few verses from the bible and make a doctrine that Jesus is the Father in heaven but by it they have to TOTALLY IGNORE the rest of the scriptures.

I have never studied theology (except for my Catholic Religion subject in High School which I have renounced anyway when I got born-again) and my views on Trinity were given directly to me by the Holy Spirit in my personal study of God's Word. My opponent on the subject trinity accussed me of basing my arguments on theology which blinded him to miss all the scriptures I have given.

Oneness teaching is very similar and close to Trinity but creates more confusion than revelation which is disturbing and perverting the gospel making it DIFFERENT and making many believers deserting Him (Jesus Christ as the SON OF THE LIVING GOD). Paul had warned us about this:

I am amazed that you are so quickly deserting Him who called you by the grace of Christ, for a different gospel; which is really not another; only there are some who are disturbing you, and want to distort the gospel of Christ. But even though we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to that which we have preached to you, let him be ACCURSED. Galatians 1:6-8

If you say that Jesus Christ is the Father in Heaven, then that is another gospel that is in contrary to what had already been preached.

You are the Christ, the Son of the Living God.... Upon this rock (of revelation) I will build My Church and no gates of Hell shall prevail against it. If you preach that Christ is the Father in heaven you are not building the Church of Christ. If Jesus were the Father in heaven, then Peter could have exclaimed: You are the Christ, the Father in heaven. That would have sounded DIFFERENTLY!!!

[EnterHisPresence]

See my other posting's to Tamara, for better understanding.

[Tamara224]

Tamara, I am so glad that you caught that, as I did not go back and reread what I had written or I would have caught it myself. I am thankful that you caught it, because if you had not caught it...It would have stayed like that and someone who didn't know better would think it was just how I wrote it. I would never want that on my concsience. I would never intentianally mislead someone. Again, thank you and God bless.


Praise God!!!!! I'm sooooo glad that was a mistake. Now, in light of that being a mistake...a lot of my reply to your post is going to seem harsh. I admit that your error caused me to think you were being intentionally deceptive so my reply should be taken with a grain of salt so as not to be offensive.

Thanks for owning up to it and we all make mistakes.

God Bless!

[EnterHisPresence]

No offense taken.

[EnterHisPresence]

There are severe problems with trinitarian terminology. First, the Bible nowhere uses the word trinity. The word three does not appear in relation to God in any translation of the Bible except the King James Version, and only once in that translation - in the doubtful verse of I John 5:7. Even this passage reads, "these three are one."

The word person does not appear in relation to God either, except twice in the KJV. Job 13:8 refers to showing partiality. Hebrews 1:3 says the Son is the express image of God's own person (meaning nature or substance), not a second person. The Bible never uses the plural word persons to describe God. (The only possible exception, Job 13:10, would demolish trinitarianism if it applies to God!)

In short, as many trinitarian scholars admit, the Bible does not explicitly express the doctrine of the trinity. The New Catholic Encyclopedia states: "There is the recognition on the part of exegetes and Biblical theologians… that one should not speak of Trinitarianism in the New Testament without serious qualifications… New Testament exegesis is now accepted as having shown that not only the verbal idiom but even the patterns of thought characteristic of the patristic [church fathers] and concilian [church councils] development would have been quite foreign to the mind and culture of the New Testament writers." "Trinity, Holy," pp. 295-305.

The trinitarian Protestant theologian Emil Brunner has stated, "The doctrine of the Trinity itself, however, is not a Biblical doctrine and this indeed not by accident but of necessity. It is the product of theological reflection upon the problem…. The ecclesiastical doctrine of the Trinity is not only the product of genuine Biblical thought, it is also the product of philosophical speculation, which is remote from the thought of the Bible." Emil Brunner, The Christian Doctrine of God (Philadelphia: Westminster Press, 1949), pp. 236-239.

If trinitarianism does not come from the Bible, where did it originate? There is no question that Christian trinitarianism developed over several centuries of time after the New Testament was written. According to The New Catholic Encyclopedia, historians of dogma and systematic theologians recognize "that when one does speak of an unqualified Trinitarianism, one has moved from the period of Christian origins to, say, the last quadrant of the 4th century… From what has been seen thus far, the impression could arise that the Trinitarian dogma is in the last analysis a late 4th century invention. In a sense, this is true but it implies an extremely strict interpretation of the key words Trinitarian and dogma… The formulation 'one God in three Persons' was not solidly established, certainly not fully assimilated into Christian life and its profession of faith, prior to the end of the 4th century. But it is precisely this formulation that has first claim to the title the Trinitarian dogma." "Trinity, Holy," pp. 295-305.

The concept of the trinity is steeped in paganism. Trinitarian scholar Alexander Hislop asserts that - the Babylonians worshiped one God in three persons and used the equilateral triangle as a symbol of this trinity. In his book, Hislop shows pictures used in ancient Assyria and in Siberia to represent triune divinities. He also finds trinitarian ideas in the Babylonian cult of the father, mother, and child, saying that the Babylonian trinity was "the Eternal Father, the Spirit of God incarnate in a human mother, and a Divine Son, the fruit of that incarnation." Alexander Hislop, The Two Babylons, 2nd ed. (Neptune, N.J.: Loizeaux Bras., 1959), pp. 16-19.

Historian Will Durant describes the trinity in ancient Egypt. "Ra, Amon, and another god, Ptah, were combined as three embodiments or aspects of one supreme and triune deity." Will and Ariel Durant, The Story of Civilization (New York: Simon & Schuster, 1935), I, 201. Egypt also had a divine trinity of father, mother, and son in Osiris, Isis, and Horus. "Trinity,Holy" p. 458.

John 1 beautifully teaches the concept of God manifest in flesh. In the beginning was the Word (Greek, Logos). The Word was not a separate person or a separate god any more than a man's word is a separate person from him. Rather the Word was the thought, plan, or mind of God. The Word was with God in the beginning and actually was God Himself (John 1:1). The Incarnation existed in the mind of God before the world began. Indeed, in the mind of God the Lamb was slain before the foundation of the world (I Peter 1:19-20; Revelation 13:8).

In Greek usage, logos can mean the expression or plan as it exists in the mind of the proclaimer - as a play in the mind of a playwright - or it can mean the thought as uttered or otherwise physically expressed - as a play that is enacted on stage. John 1 says the Logos existed in the mind of God from the beginning of time. When the fulness of time was come, God put that plan in action. He put flesh on that plan in the form of the man Jesus Christ. The Logos is God expressed. As John Miller says, the Logos is "God uttering Himself." John Miller, Is God a Trinity? (1922; rpt. HazeIwood, Mo.: Word Aflame Press, 1975), p.85. In fact, TAB translates the last phrase of John 1:1 as, "The Word was God Himself." Flanders and Cresson say, "The Word was God's means of self disclosure." This thought is further brought out by verse 14, which says the incarnated Word had the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, and by verse 18, which says that the Son has declared the Father.

In Greek philosophy, the Logos came to mean reason or wisdom as the controlling principle of the universe. In John's day, some Greek philosophers and Jewish theologians influenced by Greek thought (especially the Jewish thinker, Philo of Alexandria) regarded the Logos as an inferior, secondary deity or as an emanation from God in time. Otto Heick, A History of Christian Thought (Philadelphia: Fortress Press, 1965), I, 31-32, 59-63.

Some Christian heresies, including an emerging form of Gnosticism, were already incorporating these theories into their doctrines, and therefore relegating Jesus to an inferior role. John deliberately used their own terminology to refute these doctrines and to declare the truth. The Word was not inferior to God; it was God (John 1:1). The Word did not emanate from God over a period of time; it was with God in the beginning (John 1:1-2). Jesus Christ, the Son of God, was none other than the Word, or God, revealed in flesh. Note also that the Greek word pros, translated "with" in verse 1, is the same word translated "pertaining to" in Hebrews 2:17 and 5:1. John 1:1 could include in its meanings, therefore, the following: "The Word pertained to God and the Word was God," or, "The Word belonged to God and was God."

[friend]

thank you blueheron 32
God Bless

[Tamara224]

There are severe problems with trinitarian terminology. First, the Bible nowhere uses the word trinity. The word three does not appear in relation to God in any translation of the Bible except the King James Version, and only once in that translation - in the doubtful verse of I John 5:7. Even this passage reads, "these three are one."

EnterHisPresence....this is a strawman argument. The use of the word 'trinity' to describe the unique mystery of God has no bearing on whether the concept is accurate or not. "The word "Trinity" comes from the Latin word trinitas, or the word trinitus, which means "three in one" or "threefold." The word simply means three-in-one.

The Bible never uses the plural word persons to describe God. (The only possible exception, Job 13:10, would demolish trinitarianism if it applies to God!)

The Bible may never use the plural word of 'person' to describe God. But it does use the plural of 'God' to describe 'God.' In the first five books of the Bible (the Torah) the plural form of God ["Elohim Myhla"] was used more than 500 times. Further, although the noun "Elohim Myhla" is plural, the verbs are always in their singular form! This shows that while God is 'plural' the plurality acts in unison.

In short, as many trinitarian scholars admit, the Bible does not explicitly express the doctrine of the trinity. The New Catholic Encyclopedia states: ...

Well, that's very interesting, but it doesn't really say anything. The "patterns of thought would have been quite foreign to the mind and culture of the new Testament writers." ??? What point relevant to this discussion does this quote make?!! Is it suggesting that the writers of the New Testament didn't believe in the Trinity because that was a concept thought up later? Here's an excerpt from a book which contradicts what your excerpt says:
Many scholars believe that the word "Trinity" was used for the first time in reference to this biblical doctrine during a church council held at Alexandria, Egypt in a.d. 317. However, the history of the early Church reveals that this doctrine of the Trinity was taught by Jesus Christ, His disciples, and the apostles. The Trinity of God was the universal belief of the church from the very beginning of the Christian era. For example, the secular Greek writer Lucian, in his book Philopatris, written in a.d. 160, confirmed the well-known belief of the Christians in the Trinity. Lucian described the first generations of Christians confessing their faith in God in the following words: "The exalted God . . . Son of the Father, Spirit proceeding from the Father, One of Three, and Three of One." [Footnotes omitted]

The trinitarian Protestant theologian Emil Brunner has stated, ... If trinitarianism does not come from the Bible, where did it originate?
Well, yet another argument made from straw. This Emil Brunner guy doesn't speak for everyone. He may have made some claim that the doctrine of the Trinity doesn't come from the Bible, but most if not all the other trinitarian theologians believe it comes from the Bible and back up their belief's with scripture.

There is no question that Christian trinitarianism developed over several centuries of time after the New Testament was written. … From what has been seen thus far, the impression could arise that the Trinitarian dogma is in the last analysis a late 4th century invention.

Again, I don't know where the New Catholic Encyclopedia gets its info but others disagree and have support for their disagreement:

Some critics and theologians have claimed that the doctrine of the Trinity was unknown until the Council of Nicca in a.d. 325, where they claim it was invented by the unanimous collusion of the Church fathers in that council. However, this claim is totally contradicted by the many writings of the early Church from Christ to a.d. 325. I will share some passages from several of these writers to establish this fact. ...

One of the earliest of the manuscripts written by Church leaders is the Shepherd of Hermas. He was a brother of Pius, the bishop of Rome. Some scholars believe Hermas is the person mentioned in the apostle Paul's epistle to the Romans (16:14). Hermas wrote, "The Son of God is more ancient than any created thing, so that He was present in council with His Father at the creation."3

Justin Martyr was a great leader and writer in the early Church in a.d. 150. His writing declares that the doctrine of the Trinity was proclaimed with great clarity from the earliest ages of the Church. Justin and many of the early Church fathers wrote that it was Jesus Christ who appeared as God to Moses in the burning bush. He criticized the Jews for confusing the roles of God the Father with that of His Son in the passages of the Old Testament. Justin Martyr wrote,

"The Jews, who think that it was always God the Father who spoke to Moses, (whereas He who spoke to him was the Son of God, who is also called an Angel, and an Apostle) are justly convicted both by the prophetical spirit, and by Christ himself, for knowing neither the Father nor the Son. For they, who say that the Son is the Father, are convicted of neither knowing the Father, nor of understanding that the God of the universe has a Son: who, being the first-born Word of God, is also God. [footnote omitted]

Justin Martyr also wrote the following statement in his Dialogue With Trypho. He establishes a general rule that wherever God appears or converses with any man in the Old Testament, as in Genesis 17:22, we should understand that the passage is referring to Jesus as God the Son.

"Now that Christ is Lord, and substantially God the Son of God, and in times past appeared potentially as a man and an angel, and in fiery glory as He appeared in the bush. and at the judgment of Sodom, has been proved by many arguments."
The Handwriting of God, by Grant Jeffrey, Chapter 6

The concept of the trinity is steeped in paganism.
This is just a case of putting the cart before the horse, I guess. The concept of the Trinity is not steeped in paganism - paganism is steeped in half-truths twisted to deceive people. People who support the trinity idea have done so with BIBLICAL support. False religions have often used symbols that are similar to, but twisted from, truths revealed in the Bible. For example, a symbol used at the Esclepion in Ephesus for their gods was a pole with a snake on it that represented healing. Well, remember the story in Exodus about how God commanded Moses to erect a pole with a snake on it and whoever looked on it would be saved from snake bites? Paganism/false religion often steals stuff from the truth, twisting it to deceive people. The fact that some similarities exist in paganism is in no way a valid refutation of what Scripture says.

John 1 beautifully teaches the concept of God manifest in flesh. In the beginning was the Word (Greek, Logos)....

I'm sure you've seen that I and others have used John 1 in our posts as evidence of the Trinity. The Word was with God and the Word WAS GOD. This is evidence that The Word is One with God and separate at the same time. Further, the Word is given a personal pronoun in that passage. "He was with God in the beginning.Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. In him was life, and that life was the light of men." The Word was personified by having been referred to with a personal pronoun (i.e. He/Him). Therefore, your conclusion that the Word was merely the "thought, plan, or mind of God" is an erroneous conclusion, not supported by the text. If the Word was merely the thought of God, the Word would have been referred to as IT rather than HE.


[/quote]Some Christian heresies, including an emerging form of Gnosticism, were already incorporating these theories into their doctrines, and therefore relegating Jesus to an inferior role....[/QUOTE]

Trinitarians do not believe that Jesus is an inferior diety or lower than God the Father. The doctrine of the Trinity is that they are all ONE GOD. We do not believe there are three Gods but ONE GOD. That is the mystery. Jesus, being completely God, has always existed. The Word was with God from the beginning and created all things. The word then became flesh and dwelt among us. But he was always around and he was always the Son, begotten but not created. He did not come into existence when he put on flesh, because he already existed - as this passage deliberately states.

[Tamara224]

EnterHisPresence can you please do me a favor, humor me...? I would like you to state your view of what the Trinity concept is in as short a sentence as you can and then state what your belief is in the same manner and how those differ. Because sometimes when I read your posts I get the impression that you are arguing against a position that no one actually believes.
Please, don't provide support for your viewpoints at this time. Just give me a concise statement of your view. That would help me understand where you are coming from. Thanks.

[germanJoy]

This "other" posting you made to Tamara was the reason I called your attention, EnterHisPresence.

It is clear that the terms Father, Son, and Holy Ghost cannot imply three separate persons, personalities, wills, or beings. They can only denote different aspects or roles of one Spirit-being - the one God. They describe God's relationships to man, not persons in a Godhead. We use Father to emphasize God's roles as Creator, Father of spirits, Father of the born-again believers, and Father of the humanity of Jesus Christ. We use Son to mean both the humanity of Jesus Christ and God as He manifested Himself in the flesh for the purpose of man's salvation. We use Holy Ghost to emphasize God's active power in the world and among men, particularly His work in regeneration.

We should note that these three titles are not the only ones God has. Many other titles or names for God are very significant and appear frequently in the Bible, including terms such as LORD (Jehovah), Lord, Word, God Almighty, and Holy One of Israel. The oneness view does not deny Father, Son, or Holy Ghost, but it does refute the view that these terms designate persons in the Godhead. God has many titles, but He is one being. He is indivisible as to His existence, but His revelation of Himself to mankind has been expressed through many channels, including His revelation as the Father, in the Son, and as the Holy Ghost.

Notice the underline quotations you made:

Father of the humanity of Jesus Christ.

The right statement here should read "Father of the humanity and GodSon Jesus Christ". If Oneness starts to believe in this then their doctrine of One God falls apart. For how can the Father be the Son of Himself? Thus, you can only reconcile it if you just say God is the Father of the humanity of Jesus Christ. Oneness needs to break the relationship between God the Father and God the Son in order to be consistent on their teaching that Jesus is the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.

His revelation as the Father, in the Son, and as the Holy Ghost.

Instead of agreeing with the trinity teaching "His revelation as the Father, as the Son, and as the Holy Ghost", Oneness needed to say His revelation in the Son because the humanity of the Son has to be highlighted to reconcile the conflict of the identity of Jesus Christ as the Son of the living God being the Son of the Father.

The deeper you go into the Oneness teaching, the more you get closer to the influence of the antichrist teaching.

[not4gotton]

The Word of God always answers itself ! When God said, let us make man in our image, after our likeness: He was speaking to His Wisdom. In Gods "own image" there is wisdom. And when God created man, He created him with wisdom. ( or to have wisdom)
*Read Proverbs chapter 8 *
KJV v.22 -30 > ( Wisdom speaking) The Lord possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old. I was set up from the beginning, or ever the earth was. When there were no depths, I was brought forth: When there were no fountains abounding with water. Before the mountains were settled, before the hills was I was brought forth: While as yet he had not made the earth, nor the fields, nor the highest part of the dust of the world. When he prepared the heavens, I was there: when he set a compass upon the face of the depth: When he stablished the clouds above: when he strengthened the fountains of the deep: When he gave to the sea his decree, that the waters should not pass his commandment: when he appointed the foundations of the earth:
THEN I WAS BY HIM, AS ONE BROUGHT UP WITH HIM: AND I WAS DAILY HIS DELIGHT, REJOICING ALWAYS BEFORE HIM;
GOD WAS SPEAKING TO HIS WISDOM !
There is ONLY one SPIRIT ! that is GOD !

GOD
IN
CHRIST
IN
YOU

ONE SPIRIT (which is GOD) filtered thru the man Christ Jesus into the hearts of man as the Holy Ghost which is the comforter...Its ALL ONE SPIRIT
There is NO trinity!
If we study and pray in spirit and truth the Lord will give us understanding and we will not be confused the Holy Ghost will teach us all things.

[EnterHisPresence]

I'm pretty sure I've already answered this question. Jesus is the Son of God in that he was begotten of the Father, just like He is also called the Son of man. I understand that coming from a trinitarian way of thinking that it seems hard to grasp, but it's not. The human body of the Christ, is what is the Son, the spirit that was IN Him was God. God had to take on a human body, in order to become the Messiah/Saviour. As redemption could only come with the sacrifice of the Lamb. God can not die, so He had to become human, in order for Him to be crucified.

[EnterHisPresence]

Sure, I will do that.

The trinity...3 people who are one. 1. Father 2. Son 3. Holy Spirit you believe all 3 are a distinctly different person from the other...and yet somehow are all one.

Discription: we have potatoe, tomatoe and celery. That's three different things...but what I can't figure out is how that they could ever be one ??? Not only is it not feasable...it's not possible.

Now, what is more feasable and accurate, is that God the Father, became flesh and now lives in the hearts of believers. All one and the same.

[Tamara224]

Never mind.

[Tamara224]

Sure, I will do that.
The trinity...3 people who are one. 1. Father 2. Son 3. Holy Spirit you believe all 3 are a distinctly different person from the other...and yet somehow are all one.
Discription: we have potatoe, tomatoe and celery. That's three different things...but what I can't figure out is how that they could ever be one ??? Not only is it not feasable...it's not possible.
Now, what is more feasable and accurate, is that God the Father, became flesh and now lives in