a little meat among so much milk

[pop james]

An excellent way to define GODs sovereignty is simply...the excercise of HIS supremacy. HE is absolutely independent, subject to no one or anything, influenced by no one or anything. "My council shall stand and I will do ALL my pleasure" Is 46:10.......This should be one of the most comforting attributes of GOD to HIS elect......sadly, many christians hardly give it proper notice or place in their lives.

The aspect of GODs sovereignty I would like to call our attention to is the fact that HE sovereignly has placed HIS elect and Adam and Israel on different footing.

GOD placed HIS elect on a UNCONDITIONAL footing. JESUS was appointed their Head, and took their responsibilities upon Himself, became a righteousness for them which is perfect and everlasting.
Adam and Israel were placed on a CONDITIONAL footing, being dependent on their obedience to GOD in order to obtain eternal security. But.....GODs elect "HIS "little flock"(luke 12:32)are given a UNCONDITIONAL standing in HIS covenant and councils through HIS SON....their eternal security being dependent on what CHRIST did for them...."The foundation of GOD standeth sure , having this seal: The LORD knoweth them that are HIS" (2tim 2:19).

This foundation that HIS people stand on can not have anything added to it nor anything taken from it. (ecl 3:14)...So here we see the greatest aspect of GODs absolute sovereignty....and that being....."HE has mercy on whom HE will have mercy , and whom HE will HE hardeneth.......rom 9:18.........regards....... Pop

[OneJoe]

Amazing how scriptures support his sovereignty so well and remind us of how dependant we are on God at the same time. Peace be unto the Pop! God Bless.

[allthingspure]

influenced by no one or anything.
So according to your opinion God is not influenced by anyone or anything?
I'm afraid God does not agree with you :)
Genesis 18 beginning at verse 17 Abrahams plea to the Lord did have influence on His decision to destory Sodom and Gomorrah.
Moses also influenced the Lord..Exodus 32:9 thru 14 God was angry at the people, and would have destroyed them but Moses besought the Lord...saying Lord, why doth thy wrath wax hot against thy people? After the Lord listened to Moses He then changed His mind verse 14 And the Lord repented of the evil which He thought to do unto His people.
Sounds like influence to me :)
As a matter of fact God would have destroyed them all, and would have made Moses a great nation. But Moses simply talked Him out of it.:)
What influenced God to destory them in the first place? Because they were stiffnecked. So they are the ones who influenced God to become angry at them to began with.
There are also many other examples..
"My council shall stand and I will do ALL my pleasure" Is 46:10. Amen! If God decides to change His mind, who are we to question it?

allthingspure
Gods people are the apple of His eye, it is His pleasure to care for us.

[pop james]

It certainly is NOT my opinion but sound biblical theology......

Moses' appeal for GOD to change , to relent, was successful because GOD had threatened judgment, not decreed it. The divine intention is NOT a unchangeable divine decree.............but the fact still remains that this outcome came about not because moses was a slick talker and changed GODs mind....that is rubbish.......GODs will was accomplished because of what took place...........Pop

[allthingspure]

It certainly is NOT my opinion but sound biblical theology......

Do you then not agree that the scriptures I posted are sound biblical theology? > Genesis 18 beginning at verse 17> also Exodus 32:9 thru 14 >
Give me sound biblical doctrine that God was not at all influenced by Abraham and Moses.


Moses' appeal for GOD to change , to relent, was successful because GOD had threatened judgment, not decreed it. The divine intention is NOT a unchangeable divine decree.............but the fact still remains that this outcome came about not because moses was a slick talker and changed GODs mind....that is rubbish.......GODs will was accomplished because of what took place...........Pop

So now we have went from God not being influenced, to God being influenced only when He threatens, and not when He makes a decree. humm I can assure you if Moses had not made intercession for the people God would have, as you say, made the decree and destroyed them.:)

So you think that God cannot be influenced at all? , and that it is sound biblical theology.? I'd need sound proof before I could believe that.
Did I not just give scriptures proving that Gods decision was influenced by Abraham and Moses?
So it was Gods will that He was influenced by Abraham and Moses :)

I don't think we have a problem concerning Gods will. After all He will accomplish what He wants to accomplish.

I do not in any way believe that God changed His mind because Moses was as you said, a slick talker, I believe without a doubt that Moses was sincere in his words. God will not listen to vanin words.

God Bless ya!:)

allthingspure

[CanadianChristian]

What about Sodom and Gommorah? What about when Abraham asked that God not destroy everyone there? God was prepared to destroy everyone and Abraham asked (prayed) that he spare the worthy. God listened and changed His mind because Abraham showed faith and rightiousness.

[Wendell]

Last I heard, God totally destroyed Sodom and Gommorah...God did not change his mind, but through his conversation with Abraham, demonstrated his immutable purpose and will. That is, that he will destroy the wicked, and save the righteous. The righteous, in this case being Lot, Abrahams nephew.

blue

[DanV aka FreetoloveGod]

Everytime Abraham asked God to spare Sodom for the sake of the righteous there, God would always say, "If I find" [so many righteous] He "would spare all the place for their sake." That sounds to me that God would "change his mind," and destroy Sodom, if there could be found zero righteous.

Besides Sodom, God also changed his mind in not destroying another "little city." Conversation between Lot, and God:

Genesis 19:20-22: "See now, this city is near enough to flee to, and it is a little one; please let me escape there (is it not a little one?) and my soul shall live."

Verse 21: "And he said to hem, "See I have favored you concerning this thing also, [sounds like God is changing His mind again] in that I will not overthrow this city for which you have spoken."

Verse 22: "Hurry, escape there. For I cannot do anything until you arrive there." [for the third time God is changing His mind, in that, He wants to destroy Sodom quickly, but hesitates, until Lot is safe]...."

God Bless.

[CanadianChristian]

God did destroy Sodom and Gomorrah, but his stance changed from simply annihilating them to holding off until it could be shown that no rightious exist there as Abraham requested.

Lot would have been destroyed if God was not willing to change His mind by listening to the request of the faithful Abraham.

[Wendell]

God already knew that he would destroy sodom and gommorah.. with the exception of Lot, and his two daughters. He was already taking steps to insure that Lot was removed before he destroyed the city. God purpose was established, and the process we see revealed to us, is the means by which God carried out that purpose.. God did not change his will in any way, but carried it out to the letter.

[Wendell]

Dan... If God would have spared sodom if he had found one righteous man in the city why then did he destroy it?? Did he not find Lot there? if his intent was to destroy the city, unless one righteous one was found there then the city of Sodom should have been spared. But sodom was destroyed, after Lot was removed. God came to pass judgment on sodom and gommorah and that he did. I fail to see him change his mind, but rather he accomplished all he came to do.

I fail to see where you get the idea that God changed his mind about Zoar. God showed mercy to Lot, and showed his judgment upon sodom and gommorah..so it always is....

blue

[Brucea]

God' sovereignty is not called into question? It is your understanding of God's sovereign plan.
While you exalt yourself as the one giving the meat you deny verses by changing the definitions. The verse you changed for example about the word "world" A partial definition is a lie.

The Word of God said and I accept it is the absolute truth with no need to redefine it to fit my own understanding.
2:1 Therefore I exhort first of all that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks be made for all men,
2 for kings and all who are in authority, that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and reverence.
3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior,
4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

Jesus said this one!
John 12:30 Jesus answered and said, This voice came not because of me, but for your sakes.
31 Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out.
32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me. Jesus said He would draw all men. Without the need of redefinition I agree with Jesus. It is obvious that not all men will respond to the drawing of God. However the offer is made to all men.

I agree with 1 John 2:1-2 again without trying to redefine the verse to my own understanding, leaving the whole world as the whole world.
2:1 My little children, these things I write to you, so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous.
2 And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world.

[godslove]

this is what you are saying.
God does not get what He disires, (good luck with that one)
when Jesus was lifted up all men were drawn to Him.
(it just wasn't noticible.)

brother brucea. i believe that you are taking this way out of context...God bless

[CanadianChristian]

You might want to read all of Timothy I because verses by themselves lose meaning and context. Starting from the beginning of chapter 2 will be fine. But I Tim 2:3-2:8 says it best:

"For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time. Whereunto I am ordained a preacher, and an apostle, (I speak the truth of Christ, and lie not a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and verity. I will therefore that men pray everywhere, lifting up holy hands, without wrath and doubting."

Bold#1 confirms that God wants everyone to be saved. Not some select predetermined group, but everyone. Since God wants everyone to be saved and not everyone is, then it is by our free will that this is so.

Bold#2 confirms that Christ Jesus sacrificed Himself for all. For the whole world. That means everyone. It also confirms Bold #1 because since God wants us all to be saved, it would not make sense for Christ to die for a select few. Christ said that He does the will of the Father. Christ's sheep therefore must be those who accept His grace otherwise, He could not die for all and only save some.

Bold#3 says flat-out that Paul is infused with the truth of Christ and is not spreading a lie when he writes these words. Therefore, to call someone who believes this word a liar or not entirely true, is in fact lying themselves.

Bold#4 shows that prayer helps us to receive the grace of Christ because the verse is written in the context with God's will to save everyone.

What can we conclude? We conclude that even though there is no explicit use of the term "free will", we must have it or else the whole world would be saved as God would like for it to be so. Free will to choose God is NOT a lie. And prayer helps us to get to recievership of the grace given to ALL.

I'll admit that I'm not the brightest guy in the world, but anyone that can't see the meaning of this passage is out to lunch.

[OneJoe]

3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior,
4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

Hi Brucea, I already know you disagree with many on most issues but I am going to respond anyhow. I will however attempt to keep my reply "becoming". In this passage you posted, you are accepting the idea that it is referring to all men on earth. I understand you don't like my view of "all" referring only to the elect. But how is your view of this passage correct? If it were God's desire for all men to be saved, wouldn't he fulfill that desire as he does anything else he desires? To say he desires something, but it doesn't get fulfilled is like saying he God willed something but wasn't powerful enough to carry out his own will. But we do know however that all he has chosen will become saved because Christ is working in those people. So if he were referring to the elect, would not have fit the context of scripture and be more accurate to God's will?

32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

Bruce, you are agreeing with one scripture and not taking into consideration many other things which Christ said.

Christ also said "Ye are not of my sheep". Therefore, this rules out some of the "All" your referring to. Christ said the Father must call a person before they can come to him, thus ruling out some of the "all" your referring to. Christ also said, Mat 7:21 "Not everyone that saith unto me Lord Lord shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he that doeth the will of my Father which is sin heaven"....thus ruling out some people again.

Christ also said:Mat 13:13 Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.
......If Christ spoke in parables so that some would not hear and understand, how then can we say his desire is for all men on earth? If he desires them to be saved, why then didn't he give them the opportunity to believe?

Rom 9:18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth. ......if he hardens some, then he must not desire all men to be saved right?

Joh 17:9 I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine. ......his desire for all men on earth certainly isn't express in this verse. He is clearly praying only for his sheep, those given to him by his Father.

Eph 5:25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it; ...a great example of Christ giving himself for the church, elect, believers, etc....not for all men on earth because not everyone is of his sheep.

Joh 10:15 As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep. ....another great example of Christ saying he laid down his life for his sheep. It doesn't say all men on earth.



Your going to say his desire is for all men to be saved but man rejects God with his Free Will right? Thus we work against his desire for us? According to scripture, man doesn't reject God or refuse his out stretched hand because he has Free Will, but because his sinful nature has him enslaved and rebelling against God. I know you have heard this all before, but forgive me I must push forward. According to Ephesians 2:2-3, it explains we once walked according to the flesh. We were once by nature children of wrath. We can see in these verses it was not only a choice of ours, but our nature to do so which caused that sinful choice. We were dead in our sins according to scripture. We couldn't seek after God because of our condition. (Rom 3:11) The only way possible for us to go to the Father would be if we were born of the Spirit. Because natural man, because of his nature, can not know the things of God. (1 Co 2:14) Does this mean man had no will at all? No of course not! Man had a will, but it was a will which was in bondage. It was subject to the flesh, to the course of this world. I'm sure you have read several times where Paul said according to his flesh, he does not want what he would choose. But what he would choose according the spirit, that he wants. (Rom 7) But in order for us to choose the things of God, we must first be born again. We must be born of the spirit because the things of God are spiritually discerned. We see in the bible that to be born again is only of God. We were able to come to God because he quickened us. We can read in Ephesians 2:5 that while we were dead in our sins, God was merciful and quickened us from our spiritual death to life. It is because of him giving us life, that our eyes were opened or enlightened so that we may know the hope of his calling. (Eph 1:18) With us being given life and seeing spiritual truth, Paul explains we should now walk as he would walk and the God of peace shall be with you. (Phi 4:9)

[allthingspure]

HE is absolutely influenced by no one or anything.
Exodus 32:9 -14 > And the Lord said unto Moses, I have seen this people,and, behold it is a stiffnecked people: now therefore let me alone, that my wrath may wax hot against them, and that I may consume them: and I will make of thee a great nation. An Moses besought the Lord......
verse 14 > And the Lord repented of the evil which He thought to do unto His people.
Numbers 14:19-20 > Moses speaking - Pardon I beseech thee, the iniquity of this people according unto the greatness of thy mercy, and as thou forgiven this people, from Egypt even until now. And the Lord said, I have pardoned according to thy word.
Also Deu. 9:19-20 and 25-25

Samuel 1:6 also 12 > The Lord shut Hannahs womb, Hannah prayed, God heard and opened her womb.
2 Kings 20 > God sent Isaiah to tell hezekiah that he would die,Hezekiah prayed, God added 15 more yrs. to his life.
Jonah > God told him to preach to Nineveh, God was going to destory it. All the people prayed and humbled themselves before the Lord, because of this God changed His mind and did not destory it.
Conculsion, God can be influence by the sincere prayer of His people :)

allthhingspure