No blood wasted

[pop james]

Recently on the chat board I have come under fire for stating the obvious concerning various subjects of the Holy Scriptures....I figured.......Im on a roll, so here is one I have been wanting to bring up for some time:

Recently it was stated that Jesus died not only for the elect but also for the non-elect on the cross at calvary.......this is an outrageous statement to make in light of the word of GOD.........

Isa 53:6..."The Lord hath laid on Him the iniquity of us all".....Who us refers to is seen in verse 11:"many"...He shall bear their iniquities." Also verse 12, "He bare the sin of many."
"The Son of man came ...to give His life a ransom for many"..Matt 20:28
"The blood of the new covenant was "shed for many for the remission of sins" matt 26:28
"So Christ was once offered to bear the sin of many" Heb 9:28
"Who gave Himself for us."...who?...the redeemed titus 2:14
"The good shepherd giveth His life for the sheep" John 10:11

Jesus Himself limited the purpose of His death when He said: "I lay down my life for the sheep.'............but...........He also said to the pharaseees, "Ye are not my sheep" john 10:26....there is no doubt that HE excludes the pharasees....

Christ died for all the sins of ALL the elect. He laid down His life for the "sheep" john 10:15...for His "friends" John 15:13-14...He gave Himself for the "church"(believers) Eph 5:25....as a ransom for the "many" Mark10:45...
These distinctions are not necessary if Christ died for ALL men without exception.....as a matter of fact they would be meaningless.

He purchased the "church" of GOD with his own blood acts 20:28
Christ died for us rom 5:8...GOD delivered up his Son "for us all" rom 8:32.
These references in romans are addressed to the "called of Jesus Christ" 1:6...who are saints 1:7, who are "elect' 8:33.
Christ our passover is sacrificed for us" 1cor 5:7. once again the reference is to the church of GOD and its sanctified members 1:2.
In Christ "we have redemption through His blood" eph 1:7. written to the "chosen and predestinated" verses 4 and 5.
Christ loved us and washed us from our sins in His own blood rev 1:5. Written to the churches verse 4.

These promises are written to and about the elect child of GOD...the believers on JESUS CHRIST..........regards...... .Pop

[Recycled]

Pop, I don't understand how you can use words like "outrageous" with impunity when I get rebuffed for using much milder language, but I am compelled to reply in any case.

See what God's word says, in truth:
Isa 53:6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.
Why did you leave off the beginning of the verse?

The "all we" at the beginning is the same "we" in the middle and the "us all" at the end is likewise, the "all we" at the beginning and the whole kit and kaboodle refers to the nation Israel.

Num 27:17 Which may go out before them, and which may go in before them, and which may lead them out, and which may bring them in; that the congregation of the LORD(Israel) be not as sheep which have no shepherd.

In David's cry of anguish to God, he referred to his people, Israel, as sheep...
2Sa 24:17 And David spake unto the LORD when he saw the angel that smote the people, and said, Lo, I have sinned, and I have done wickedly: but these sheep, what have they done? let thine hand, I pray thee, be against me, and against my father's house.

And once again...
1Ki 22:17 "And he said, I saw all Israel scattered upon the hills, as sheep that have not a shepherd...."

I think I can safely make the point here that the sheep are the people and NOT the elect.

Recently it was stated that Jesus died not only for the elect but also for the non-elect on the cross at calvary.......this is an outrageous statement to make in light of the word of GOD.........

Behold the Word of God. This is taken from another thread, pertaining to 2 Peter 3:9...
According to the Greek Lexicon published on the BlueLetterBible website, "any" can be translated "1) a certain, a certain one" and can be properly rendered "any one", or, "any man".

Therefore, II Peter 3:9 clearly indicates that "...God is not willing that "any man" should perish, but that "ALL"(men) should come to repentance.

A similar statement is made in I Timothy 2:3-6:"For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Jesus Christ, who gave Himself a ransom for all to be testified in due time...."

Finally, John 3:16-18 states, “For God so loved the world (everyone) that He sent His only begotten Son to die (for everyone) that whosoever (whoever) believed in Him would not perish but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.


Ain't God good?

R~

[pop james]

Well Recycled , here are some facts for ya......Israel is the beloved of GOD ex 15:13, deut 33:3.......Christians are the beloved of GOD...rom 9:25,eph 5:1,col 3:12. Israelites are the children of GOD ex 4:22.deut 14:1,Isa 1:2,4.........Christians are the children of GOD john 1:12.11:52.rom 8:14........Israel is the house of GOD numbers 12:7.......Christians are the house of GOD 1tim 3:15.heb 3:2,5,6. heb 10:21, 1 peter 4:17......Israelites are the chosen people deut 7:7,10:1514:12.......Christians are the chosen people col 3:12,1peter 2:9............Israelites are the circumcised gen 17:10.........Christians are the circumcised rom 2:29,philip 3:3, col 2:11..........
The fact is Recycled.....ISRAEL is ISRAEL.........Christians are also ISRAEL John 11:50,51,52, 1 cor 10:1, gal 6:15,16,eph 2:12,19........

Oh here is another thought.....Israelites are jews ezr 5:1.......Christians are jews rom 2:29......and now that I think about it consider this......The new covenant is with Israel...guess what?......The new covenant is also with Christians luk 22:20,1 cor 11:25, 2nd cor 3:6.

Point is your argument does not hold water........You see the Old Testament titles of Israel are the New Testament titles of the Christian Church........much regards and thanks for the exercise in the word...keeps me sharp.................Pop

[allthingspure]

"The Son of man came ...to give His life a ransom for many"..Matt 20:28
The 'many' inhabitance of the world who believe who the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.:)
"The blood of the new covenant was "shed for many for the remission of sins" matt 26:28
"So Christ was once offered to bear the sin of many" Heb 9:28

Again the many inhabitance of the world who believe :)
"Who gave Himself for us."...who?...the redeemed titus 2:14
"The good shepherd giveth His life for the sheep" John 10:11

The many inhabitance of the world who believe.... we are His sheep :)
He purchased the "church" of GOD with his own blood acts 20:28
Christ died for us rom 5:8...GOD delivered up his Son "for us all" rom 8:32.
These references in romans are addressed to the "called of Jesus Christ" 1:6...who are saints 1:7, who are "elect' 8:33.
Christ our passover is sacrificed for us" 1cor 5:7. once again the reference is to the church of GOD and its sanctified members 1:2.
In Christ "we have redemption through His blood" eph 1:7. written to the "chosen and predestinated" verses 4 and 5.
Christ loved us and washed us from our sins in His own blood rev 1:5. Written to the churches verse 4.

These promises are written to and about the elect child of GOD...the believers on JESUS CHRIST..........regards...... .Pop

True 'we' and 'us' the ones who believes. God gave His Son that whosoever believes shall be saved< will be chosen of God>
Anyone who believes will be chosen. Many are called but few are chosen, Why? Because only a few believe.

allthingspure

[OneJoe]

The "all we" at the beginning is the same "we" in the middle and the "us all" at the end is likewise, the "all we" at the beginning and the whole kit and kaboodle refers to the nation Israel.

Recycled, If that scripture were referring to the nation of Israel then that would mean Christ did not come to save a non Jew. However, if that scripture were referring to the elect, a real Jew whom is one inwardly, then it is clear the Son of man came for "us". We were all once sheep gone astray, but thanks to the Grace of God, the good sheppard has gone out to find that lost sheep (Mat 18:14).

As for your last statement where you quoted on passages in 2 Peter, 1Timothy, and John, where do you gather scripture is really speaking of "all" men on earth? What gives you the unscriptural idea that God desires someone to be saved that he knows can't be saved without his opening their eyes. Too many people who believe what you follow often make statements such as "Well that would make us a robot". But your own view would make a person a puppet if you really believe that. After all, God desires someone to be saved, but he doesn't call them, choose them, etc.....it just doesn't sit well with the bible. If I said no a person can't be saved unless God calls them and chooses to save them, that hardly makes them a puppet or robot. That is a fact. God must open our eyes spiritually and to say he desires all people to be saved when the bible is clear some are blinded contradicts the very nature of God. Not to mention that some were created vessels of wrath fitted to destruction would contradict the very nature of God if he really desire them to be saved. God desires us to be saved and then turns around and hardens our heart so that we don't believe the Gospel? That is not logical. In fact, that is down right hypocrisy. If God really desired someone to be saved but didn't save them, then our hope is in vain. But if we believe God WILL save those who he desires and chooses to save, we can rest assured God is faithful and just to fulfill his word.

[Brucea]

Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,

Matthew 23:37 "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing!

1 Timothy 2:3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior,
4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.
5 For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus,
6 who gave Himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time,

Acts 2:21 And it shall come to pass That whoever calls on the name of the LORD Shall be saved.'

As you have excused yourself from so many verses by narrowing their definition to fit your point of doctrine I have hesitated to respond. I know you will only do it again.

Please consider how many verse you have redifined when people have brought them to you. all don't mean all, whosoever don't mean whosoever, world don't mean world ( except to your narrowed definition of it).

Flase doctine is built this way!

Some claim you cant be save if you have not been baptized with the words "IN the Name of Jesus" spoken over you. This is what washes away sin. So whoever has not come into obedience in this is not saved. Their justification for this is one verse:Acts 2:38 Then Peter said to them, "Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
If you read some of my writing in many of these treads you know I disagree with their understanding of this verse in the light of many other verse they seem to ignore. However they are on more solid ground in their claim, then in many of the claims you have made of late to defend your understanding of scriptures.
When I first came to this chatboard I questioned myself if I should join in these debates. Now I'm questioning again! One day when we stand before God I suppose we will all find out we were wrong about something.

You said you felt fired upon. I would be one of those who did the firing. I'm sorry. I was not trying to make it personal-yet in truth I did. I dont want to be one who is biting and devouring my own brothers in Christ. Forgive my attitude that I presented.

I agree to disagree. Love is the most important thing. Please forgive the offense. Knowlege does puff up and truly many of my responces had nothing to do with the love of God. I was more interested in proving my point than walking in love. Godly wisdom is willing to yeild truly I was not acting out of it.

Bruce A

[OneJoe]

Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,

Matthew 23:37 "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing!

1 Timothy 2:3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior,
4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.
5 For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus,
6 who gave Himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time,

Acts 2:21 And it shall come to pass That whoever calls on the name of the LORD Shall be saved.'

As you have excused yourself from so many verses by narrowing their definition to fit your point of doctrine I have hesitated to respond. I know you will only do it again.

Please consider how many verse you have redifined when people have brought them to you. all don't mean all, whosoever don't mean whosoever, world don't mean world ( except to your narrowed definition of it).

Flase doctine is built this way!

Some claim you cant be save if you have not been baptized with the words "IN the Name of Jesus" spoken over you. This is what washes away sin. So whoever has not come into obedience in this is not saved. Their justification for this is one verse:Acts 2:38 Then Peter said to them, "Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
If you read some of my writing in many of these treads you know I disagree with their understanding of this verse in the light of many other verse they seem to ignore. However they are on more solid ground in their claim, then in many of the claims you have made of late to defend your understanding of scriptures.
When I first came to this chatboard I questioned myself if I should join in these debates. Now I'm questioning again! One day when we stand before God I suppose we will all find out we were wrong about something.

You said you felt fired upon. I would be one of those who did the firing. I'm sorry. I was not trying to make it personal-yet in truth I did. I dont want to be one who is biting and devouring my own brothers in Christ. Forgive my attitude that I presented.

I agree to disagree. Love is the most important thing. Please forgive the offense. Knowlege does puff up and truly many of my responces had nothing to do with the love of God. I was more interested in proving my point than walking in love. Godly wisdom is willing to yeild truly I was not acting out of it.

Bruce A
Brucea, perhaps you should concentrate more on his message rathan than the messanger. In most of what you said on the first part of your post, it was all directed at the messenger. You don't like his view, but you did not bother to show him where he was wrong. Perhaps it is because you are unable to do so?

I am going to respond in regards to the scriptures you posted....

1 Titus 2:11....You use this scripture as meaning all men on earth, but the Grace of God did not appear to all men on earth. It only appeared to a select few at that time, thus a person can't use a universal view.

Mat 23:37....In this scripture there are two groups being referred to. There are the "generation of vipers" and then there are those who God desired to gather under his wing. Therefore, this is yet another case where we see only a select few who God desired to gather. God has always maintained a remnant of his people to gather.

1 Tim 2:3-6....A person couldn't logically argue God desired for all men on earth to be saved because it is God who does the saving and he obviously doesn't choose to save everyone, thus, it is not his desire for every man. His desire is for all of his elect to be saved. He is not willing any of his sheep perish. (see Mat 18)

Acts 2:21....in this scripture it is obvious that only those who call on the name of the Lord will be saved. I am not sure how you claim this means all men can call on him. After all, God doesn't call everyone. He calls many. (see Mat 22:14) He hardens some does he not? (see Rom 9:18)

Please consider how many verse you have redifined when people have brought them to you. all don't mean all, whosoever don't mean whosoever, world don't mean world ( except to your narrowed definition of it).

This is what I was referring to. You didn't like his message but didn't bother to correct him either. Try showing him why scripture can't mean only a few people. God willing, truth might be revealed to someone.

Flase doctine is built this way!

False? How can you claim something is false when you haven't even shown correction. Define false! On what are we basing this conclusion on? It surely isn't the bible. It couldn't possibly be the bible, because you haven't shown him where he is wrong using the bible. The passages which you quoted are verses you should reexamine because they contradict what your claiming.

Some claim you cant be save if you have not been baptized with the words "IN the Name of Jesus" spoken over you. This is what washes away sin. So whoever has not come into obedience in this is not saved. Their justification for this is one verse:Acts 2:38 Then Peter said to them, "Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
If you read some of my writing in many of these treads you know I disagree with their understanding of this verse in the light of many other verse they seem to ignore. However they are on more solid ground in their claim, then in many of the claims you have made of late to defend your understanding of scriptures.
When I first came to this chatboard I questioned myself if I should join in these debates. Now I'm questioning again! One day when we stand before God I suppose we will all find out we were wrong about something.

Brucea, though I would also disagree with anyone who claims you can't be saved unless your Baptised in water, that doesn't matter much on this thread does it? I didn't realize there was any relevance whatsoever. Perhaps this is a distraction from having to offer correction. Again you say he is wrong with his views. But you to this point have not corrected him. Perhaps it is easier just to say "your wrong, i'm right, it doesn't matter what you say". :-) You know, if your questioning yourself as to whether you should be joining in on these debates that might very well be a hint. Ya think? Perhaps not a hint to sit back and not respond. No I doubt it is telling you not to respond or even be here. I believe it is a conscience at work saying "My God, I am in over my head and can't show proof"..:-) Pro 27:5 Open rebuke is better than secret love.

I agree to disagree. Love is the most important thing. Please forgive the offense. Knowlege does puff up and truly many of my responces had nothing to do with the love of God. I was more interested in proving my point than walking in love. Godly wisdom is willing to yeild truly I was not acting out of it.

I completely agree we should never forget to love our brethren, but the bible also tells us to rebuke our brethren, show them the error of their ways. "I agree to disagree".......hmm...let me see if I can sum that up. (agree to disagree = sacrifise truth for the sake of peace).........yeah I believe that will do it. God foribid! Can we not love our brethren and have a good healthy debate at the same time? I completely and whole heartedly disagree with your views Brucea, but I have no bitterness towards you nor anyone else on this board. I would love to see proof of why what you claim as truth is actually correct and not Pops. Where is Pop wrong? What makes you believe his view is wrong? You posted scriptures earlier which is great, but those scriptures actually hurt your point rather than support it. What scriptures actually states that God wants all men on this earth to be saved and isn't referring to a select few? I feel safe to say if you examine each scripture in light of the whole chapter, you will see it is always the elect being referred to or "those who will believe"..or "whosoever". While it is true that each man has the hope of being saved if he is under the hearing of the Gospel, we do not know who those people will be nor can we say for sure someone IS saved. That is left up to the creator and master of our salvation. I pray you don't take anything I have said wrong and keep in mind that every thing I have said I meant with all sincerity and best of intentions. Until next time, God Bless you!


Onejoe

[OneJoe]

True 'we' and 'us' the ones who believes. God gave His Son that whosoever believes shall be saved< will be chosen of God>
Anyone who believes will be chosen. Many are called but few are chosen, Why? Because only a few believe.

Where does the bible say we are chosen because we believe? The way I understood it, we believe because we are chosen BEFORE the world was founded. I have read several times where you have claimed were chosen because we believe, but when do we heed to correction by scripture?

Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

Rom 9:11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)

Rom 9:16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that showeth mercy.

Rom 9:18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.

[larry]

Great post Brother pop on a roll. Thanks, and God bless you in Jesus' name - larry :)

[allthingspure]

To get the full understanding of Ephesians chapter one must read the whole chapter. Taking one verse out of context ,unless it is a subject within itself can cause confusion.
Paul writing to the saints, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus.
Verse 3 > Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ.
* We are blessed because we are allowed to sit in heavenly places in Christ *

According as He hath chosen us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will.
*God having chosen [B]those who are in Christ before the foundation of the world, and predestinated that (those who hear and believe, read verse13&14) will obtain an inhertance.
Again we are chosen Only because we are in Christ, and we are in Christ only because we first believed the gospel.

Verse 7 .. We have redemption through His blood, and forgiveness of sins..
Verse 10 .. That in the dispensation of the times He might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in Him
Verse 11 .. In whom also we have obtained an inhertance, being predestinated according to the purpose of Him who worketh all things after the counsel of His own will:
* We have obtained an inhertance and are predestinated because we are in Him *
Verse 12 .. That we should be to the praise of His glory, who first trusted in Christ.
Verse .. 13 In whom ye also trusted after that ye heard the Word of Truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise,
*A person cannot trust in the Gospel without first hearing it.*
This verse also confirms that we are sealed with the Holy Spirit After we believe.
Rom 9:11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth

A perfect example of the foreknowledge of God. Read the entire chapter, verse 9 .. For this is the word of promise, At this time will I come and Sarah shall have a son. And not only this; but when Rebecca also conceived by one, enen our father Isaac;(For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth V.12 It was said unto her, the elder shall serve the younger. 13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
This was God foretelling what was to come. He knows what is to come, and who will accept or reject Him. He has chose that those who first believe the gospel, will be predestinated as Christ is predestinated.


Rom 9:16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that showeth mercy.
Rom 9:18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.

Amen:) and who are those who God shows mercy?
Jesus explaining who will be blessed. Matt.5:7 > Blessed are the merciful, for they shall obtain mercy. We obtain mercy from God because we First show mercy to others.
Luke 1:50 > Mary and Elisabeth speaking of the Lord >. And His mercy is on them that fear Him from generation to generation.
James 2:13 For he shall have judgment without mercy, that showed no mercy; and mercy rejoiceth against judgment.

Also Romans chapter 11 Speaking of Jews and Gentiles > the Gentiles > V.30 For as ye in times past have not believed God ,yet have obtained mercy through their unbelief: Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy . For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that He might have mercy upon all. < all being both Jew and Gentiles.

There are many more scriptures but time does not permit me to post them all.

God bless

allthingspure

[godslove]

dear allthingspure, there are a few verses missing in your quote of eph chapter 1 so i am goint to post them...God bless.

1 ¶ Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus:
2 Grace be to you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.
3 ¶ Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.
7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;
8 Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence;
9 Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:
10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:
11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:
12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.
13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.
15 ¶ Wherefore I also, after I heard of your faith in the Lord Jesus, and love unto all the saints,
16 Cease not to give thanks for you, making mention of you in my prayers;
17 That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him:
18 The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints,
19 And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us–ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power,
20 Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places,
21 Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come:
22 And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church,
23 Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all.

[allthingspure]

dear allthingspure, there are a few verses missing in your quote of eph chapter 1 so i am goint to post them...God bless.

lol thank you godslove, :) although I did not quote each verse because of the fact that I am slow at typing, and it would have taken a long time for me to type each verse. Nevertheless my point is to read and understand the whole chapter, before taking a verse and using it alone without understanding the entire setting.
God Bless you too!
allthingspure

[allthingspure]

Where does the bible say we are chosen because we believe?
Oops looks like I overlooked this question. :)

Eph.chapter 1 v.12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.
13. In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

Now wouldn't you agree that once a person has been filled with the Spirit, and also sealed..they are then one of the chosen few?
Wouldn't you say that being filled and sealed is in fact Gods way of chosing who will be saved?
So then we can conclude that one must first believe the gospel, before they are filled, sealed, and chosen by God.
Many are called , but few are chosen .

God Bless

allthingspure

[OneJoe]

This was God foretelling what was to come. He knows what is to come, and who will accept or reject Him. He has chose that those who first believe the gospel, will be predestinated as Christ is predestinated.

You have ingnored what scripture says. What you are claiming is not logical. Predestination was from the beginning, before you could ever make a choice. I am not disputing that we must believe. What I am disputing is your claim that our being predestined is because of something we would do. Scripture says it is not of us, but of Him. What is out of context is what your claiming. To say were predestined because we first chose to believe is not in the context of scripture. No where does the bible say we believe and then are predestined from the beginning. The bible says we are chosen from the beginning to obtain an heritage. To obtain that heritage we must believe and to believe is only possible by the Grace of God. There is no disputing that. You continue to claim the opposite despite what scripture says. You know, I once believed in Free Will also, among other things the world would only accept. Even then I understood that predestination was referring to the elect being chosen from the beginning. Therefore, I knew those people would obviously believe.You however are not understanding the concept of being chosen prior to your actions. I can't make you understand that. Only God can!

Rom 9:16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that showeth mercy.
Rom 9:18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.


Amen and who are those who God shows mercy?
Jesus explaining who will be blessed. Matt.5:7 > Blessed are the merciful, for they shall obtain mercy. We obtain mercy from God because we First show mercy to others.
Luke 1:50 > Mary and Elisabeth speaking of the Lord >. And His mercy is on them that fear Him from generation to generation.
James 2:13 For he shall have judgment without mercy, that showed no mercy; and mercy rejoiceth against judgment.

Nice try allthingspure, but you have deliberately ignored those scriptures and the reason for my posting them. Those scriptures are clear that salvation is of God. It is not of you or anything that you would later do. Salvation is according to his purpose. The verses which you posted are not even directly related to this topic. You just picked out some scriptures which would sound good but have no direct bearing on this subject.

Also Romans chapter 11 Speaking of Jews and Gentiles > the Gentiles > V.30 For as ye in times past have not believed God ,yet have obtained mercy through their unbelief: Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy . For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that He might have mercy upon all. < all being both Jew and Gentiles. Only God can justify the unGodly. But you do understand that this passage you posted does not mean "all" men on earth right? After all, God did not conclude all men on earth in their unbelief, but rather a few. Read the whole chapter slowly and you will see just that.

Again, you have posted scriptures which are not even directly related to this topic. They are being used as a distraction from the original point. Your view of the scriptures you did reply to are backward from what is actually being stated. Again, no where does the bible say we are chosen or predestined from the foundation of the world based on something we would later do.

[DanV aka FreetoloveGod]

Wonderful and inspiring Scripture. Your point is well-taken. However, you may want to start at Romans 5:6-8, which may put a different slant on things.

Romans 5:6-8: "For when we were still without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly. For scarcely for a righteousness man will one die; yet perhaps for a good man someone would even dare to die."

"But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us."

God Bless.

[allthingspure]

You have ingnored what scripture says.
I make a point never to ignore Gods word, all scripture is inspired by Him, and none can be ignore nor misused.
What you are claiming is not logical.
Gods word does not always fit our logic, but it does not change its facts. His word must be rightly divided in order to understand it in its fullness.

What I am disputing is your claim that our being predestined is because of something we would do. Scripture says it is not of us, but of Him. What is out of context is what your claiming. To say were predestined because we first chose to believe is not in the context of scripture. No where does the bible say we believe and then are predestined from the beginning.
I will try to explain once again...When we believed the Gospel we became part of the group that has obtained an inhertiance unto the adoption of sons by Jesus Christ.
The word predestinate is Greek the meanings are as follows....
no. 1 >to limit in advance
From the foundation of the world God limited in advance that only those who believe the gospel of Jesus Christ would be saved.
no.2> predetermine
From the foundation of the world God predetermined that those who believe the gospel of Jesus Christ would be saved.
no.3> determine before From the foundation of the world God determined that those who believe the gospel of Jesus Christ would be saved.
no.4 > ordained
Again From the foundation of the world God ordained that whosoever believes the gospel of Jesus Christ would be saved.
It is God who predestinated this, before we were even created.
God being no respecter of person, did not pick and chose each individual that He wanted to save. But rather said in Acts 10:35 > But in every nation he that feareth Him, and worketh righteousness, is excepted with Him.
And again in verse 43 > To Him gave all the prophets witness, that through His name whosoever believeth in Him shall recieve remission of sins.

When we believed we then became a part of the group (or a seed)out of every nation, that God ordained, predetermined, limited in advanced that would be saved. He limited in advance that > only those who believe the gospel will be saved.

To obtain that heritage we must believe and to believe is only possible by the Grace of God.
Amen!
Quote:
Rom 9:16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that showeth mercy.
Rom 9:18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
Amen and who are those who God shows mercy?
Jesus explaining who will be blessed. Matt.5:7 > Blessed are the merciful, for they shall obtain mercy. We obtain mercy from God because we First show mercy to others.
Luke 1:50 > Mary and Elisabeth speaking of the Lord >. And His mercy is on them that fear Him from generation to generation.
James 2:13 For he shall have judgment without mercy, that showed no mercy; and mercy rejoiceth against judgment.


Nice try allthingspure, but you have deliberately ignored those scriptures and the reason for my posting them. Those scriptures are clear that salvation is of God. It is not of you or anything that you would later do. Salvation is according to his purpose. The verses which you posted are not even directly related to this topic. You just picked out some scriptures which would sound good but have no direct bearing on this subject.

Please don't accuse me of deliberatly ignoring Gods word, :( I may unknowingly overlook something but not purposely.
I agree 100% Salvation is something that God ordained and planned, and He did not need our help to do it.
Also Romans chapter 11 Speaking of Jews and Gentiles > the Gentiles > V.30 For as ye in times past have not believed God ,yet have obtained mercy through their unbelief: Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy . For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that He might have mercy upon all. < all being both Jew and Gentiles.
Only God can justify the unGodly. But you do understand that this passage you posted does not mean "all" men on earth right? After all, God did not conclude all men on earth in their unbelief, but rather a few. Read the whole chapter slowly and you will see just that.

I believe I stated that the 'all' is speaking of Jews and Gentiles...
Again, no where does the bible say we are chosen or predestined from the foundation of the world based on something we would later do.

If you rightly divide Gods word you will find it says just that.
Eph. >>> According as He hath chosen us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love: Having predestinated us < us being those who hear and believe) unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will.
He has chosen us who are in Christ, How do we get in Christ? by believing and obeying the gospel.
Verse 11 .. In whom also we have obtained an inhertance, being predestinated according to the purpose of Him who worketh all things after the counsel of His own will:
Verse 12 .. That we should be to the praise of His glory, who first trusted in Christ.
Verse .. 13 In whom ye also trusted after that ye heard the Word of Truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise,
After we believe we are filled with His Spirit and then become a part of the seed that has been predestinated from the foundation of the earth.
God Bless ya!

allthingspure

[godslove]

dear sister allthings pure, the meaning according to strong is to limit in advance
the other word predetermine (as noted with the ie in front of it) is an explanation of that meaning.
after the punctuation, all the differant renderings of the word in the english Bible is given. (mine is the K.J.V edition of strongs)
you don't have to believe me. open your strong's concordance and read the begining of the hebrew dictionary. it explains this....

4309. proorizw proorizo pro-or-id’-zo; from 4253 and 3724; to limit in advance, i.e. (figuratively) predetermine:— determine before, ordain, predestinate.

also about your referances to the verses 12 and 13 did you noitce that there is a shift of who he is talking about. ie we should be and ye also trusted.

i believe that he is talking about an order of events, we trusted now ye trust.
if it were the way that you say it is then it is an differant order of events for salvation. ie we first trusted in Jesus, but you guys first heard the Gospel then trusted in Jesus.

....God bless.

[allthingspure]

dear sister allthings pure, the meaning according to strong is to limit in advance
the other word predetermine (as noted with the ie in front of it) is an explanation of that meaning.
after the punctuation, all the differant renderings of the word in the english Bible is given. (mine is the K.J.V edition of strongs)
you don't have to believe me. open your strong's concordance and read the begining of the hebrew dictionary. it explains this....

godslove I know that....God limited in advance........that only those who believe the Gospel will be saved.
also about your referances to the verses 12 and 13 did you noitce that there is a shift of who he is talking about. ie we should be and ye also trusted.

I know that also :)
i believe that he is talking about an order of events, we trusted now ye trust.
i believe that he is talking about an order of events, we trusted now ye trust.
if it were the way that you say it is then it is an differant order of events for salvation. ie we first trusted in Jesus, but you guys first heard the Gospel then trusted in Jesus.


I'm not sure what you are talking about...when you say > if it were the way that you say it is then it is an differant order of events for salvation. What are you talking about???

Verse 12 .. That we should be to the praise of His glory, who first trusted in Christ.Verse .. 13 In whom ye also trusted after that ye heard the Word of Truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise,

They first trusted in Christ because they heard first.....whats so hard to understand about that? And we also trusted after we heard also....

God Bless Ya!

allthingspure

[godslove]

you wrote
They first trusted in Christ because they heard first.....whats so hard to understand about that? And we also trusted after we heard also....
--------------------------------------------------------------------

dear sister allthingspure, that was my point, i just wanted you to say it that we hear or heard first before we can believe or trust.......God bless.

[OneJoe]

allthingspure, lets look at that scripture again shall we..:-)

According to verse 13, "In whom ye also trusted" is referring to the saints at Ephesus trusting in Christ. "After that ye heard the word of truth, the Gospel of your salvation:" is referring to the saints trusting in Christ after they heard the word of truth which is the Gospel of their salvation. "in whom also after that ye believe, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise" is referring to the saints believeing after hearing the word of God, which also relates to "faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the word of God". It is after they believe that they are sealed with the promise.

This scripture does not say they are chosen because they believe. It is stating that after they believe they are sealed with the promise. When did God promise this? In the beginning!..:-) If you look back in the same chapter you point out, you will see how many times Paul said they were chosen or predestined from the foundation of the world. They are chosen from the beginning that they would receive an inheritance. They were chosen in the beginning to believe and recieve the gift of God. Predestination doesn't mean they were already saved in the beginning, but that they would later be saved because it is God's will.

Eph 1:11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:


Here Paul is stating they have obtained the inheritance according to God's purpose. The purpose was PRE planned. He was chosen before the world began. God had PRE chosen that Paul would believe and obtain salvation. The same applies to all of the elect. In this scripture you posted, it is not saying God chose them because of something they did. If it was saying that, it would contradict Rom 9:16. This scripture is rather supporting the idea that God chose his people in the beginning to obtain salvation at a later date and it was after they believed that they were sealed with the promise he had given from the foundation of the world. You see what this scripture you posted is saying? God fulfilled his promise allthingspure. That is a great God. He promised from the foundation of the world that his people are chosen and they will recieve the gift of salvation according to the times and season he has set forth. When that time comes, that chosen person will hear the Gospel, trust and believe in Him for that salvation. This will happen because God said so from the beginning. He Predestined that all this would occur. It was his sole purpose according to His own will and good pleasure. That is a Loving and merciful God. He chose in the beginning he would save that person. He seals them with that promise at a later date, according to his purpose, but he does keep his word and not let them perish. Why does he choose one and not another? I have no idea. But we can be thankful and give him Glory that he did choose to save us and not leave us dead in our sins to perish. Great verse allthingspure. I love the book of Ephesians...:-)

God Bless You!


Onejoe

[OneJoe]

DanV, interesting you quote those verses. I am reading 'All of Grace' by C. H. Sprugeon. Have you read it? So far it is a great book. It is in regards to many of these very scriptures. If you haven't read it, you can read it online. I think you might enjoy it..:-)

[OneJoe]

Again From the foundation of the world God ordained that whosoever believes the gospel of Jesus Christ would be saved.
God chose who would recieve the gift of salvation. God chose who would be an hier to his grace. What is the promise referred to in the book of Ephesians? God was fulfilling his promise that he would grant them salvation and seal them with the Holy Spirit.

It is God who predestinated this, before we were even created
God being no respecter of person, did not pick and chose each individual that He wanted to save.
No, God is no respector of persons. That is why he didn't choose us according to anything we would do. If He chose us because one would accept him and another wouldn't, that is having respect of persons. But if He chooses according to his own purpose and it is not of us as scripture says, then he is not being partial. After all, he doesn't have to save anyone. But for you to say God didn't pick and choose directly conflicts with so many verses which state he did just that..:-)



Eph 1:11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

In this verse, what is the inheritance again? Is not our inheritance the gift of salvation which according to this verse was predestinated? If were not chosen in the beginning, then should we tear out all the bible verses which state we are? If God did not promise we would obtain salvation from the beginning, then what is our inheritance? What are hoping we for? Is our hope in vain?


When we believed we then became a part of the group (or a seed)out of every nation, that God ordained, predetermined, limited in advanced that would be saved. He limited in advance that > only those who believe the gospel will be saved. So your saying that God did in fact predetermine this group in advance but you state that God does not pick and choose who will be saved? Your also saying he limited in advance that only those who believe will be saved. I already know we must believe to be saved, but scripture doesn't say we must believe to be chosen. Scripture says we are chosen to obtain that inheritance (salvation). It isn't the other way around.

Please don't accuse me of deliberatly ignoring Gods word, I may unknowingly overlook something but not purposely.
I agree 100% Salvation is something that God ordained and planned, and He did not need our help to do it.

You responded in an indirect way, not touching on the subjected scriptures at hand. That was my point. You state you agree that God did not need our help with salvation, but you also believe that man has free will and must do something to be saved? Still doesn't add up, but I thank you for patience just the same.

I believe I stated that the 'all' is speaking of Jews and Gentiles...

Since you did not elaborate any further, I can only assume I know what you mean by "Jews and Gentiles" and so my assumption is your not referring to all men on earth. If you disagree, I suppose there will be further elaboration. :-)


If you rightly divide Gods word you will find it says just that.
Eph. >>> According as He hath chosen us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love: Having predestinated us < us being those who hear and believe) unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will.
He has chosen us who are in Christ, How do we get in Christ? by believing and obeying the gospel.
Verse 11 .. In whom also we have obtained an inhertance, being predestinated according to the purpose of Him who worketh all things after the counsel of His own will:
Verse 12 .. That we should be to the praise of His glory, who first trusted in Christ.
Verse .. 13 In whom ye also trusted after that ye heard the Word of Truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise,
After we believe we are filled with His Spirit and then become a part of the seed that has been predestinated from the foundation of the earth.

:-O Did that first verse say we were chosen from the beginning..:-) Looks like it. He must have chosen some to salvation. Rom 9:21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honor, and another unto dishonor?
Rom 9:22 What if God, willing to show his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:


The book of Ephesians is a great book which should be studied very carefully. Upon doing just that, a person will clearly see that God made a promise in the beginning by choosing some to obtain an inheritance which is salvation. He predestinated them from the beginning to be heirs of his Grace. God later fulfills that promise when they hear the Gospel, he opens their eyes to spiritual truth (see Eph 1:18), they trust in God and believe and know the hope of his calling, and he seals them with the Holy Spirit. Paul explains in chapter two that we all onced walked according to the flesh. We did so before God opened our spiritual eyes. But man did not walk in his sin because of "Free Will"....he did so because he was dead in his sins (Eph 2:1) and it was by his sinful nature to do so. Eph 2:3 says we were by "nature" sinners. But once the time came for God to fulfill his promise of salvation, he quickened us. (Eph 2:5) According to the book of Ephesians, there is a great mystery allthingspure. I pray you seek it out. BTW, as I said earlier, I thank you for your patience. I understand going round and round on a topic gets a little numbing to some people and they begin to loose some feathers, but I hope we can maintain our maturity..:-)

Pro 25:2 It is the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honor of kings is to search out a matter.

[godslove]

o k looks like everyone is having fun. to the freewillers, i have a question.
if it's free will to choose to accept or believe in Christ and God loves all, what about all the muslims, hindus, buddists, and so on that never heard the message of salvation or even heard of Jesus? are they lost? is that fair?...where is the love of God in this? what about back through time. there were certainly millions upon millions who never heard. so they never had a choice did they. but when it comes to you, you had a choice and you chose Jesus.
that is fuzy logic to me....God bless.

[DanV aka FreetoloveGod]

o k looks like everyone is having fun. to the freewillers, i have a question.
if it's free will to choose to accept or believe in Christ and God loves all, what about all the muslims, hindus, buddists, and so on that never heard the message of salvation or even heard of Jesus? are they lost? is that fair?...where is the love of God in this? what about back through time. there were certainly millions upon millions who never heard. so they never had a choice did they. but when it comes to you, you had a choice and you chose Jesus.
that is fuzy logic to me....God bless.

Brother godslove, excellent question. I don't believe God will hold those accountable who never heard the saving message of the Gospel. However, I believe, all will be revealed at the Great White Throne Judgment when John in Revelation 20, sees "a great white throne and Him who sat on it......"And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books."

In seems to be saying here and verses following that everyone will be "judged according to his works," by the things written in the books."

So, now the question still remains. What about those who did not have the opportunity to hear of Jesus and be saved, such as muslims, hindus, etc., who have never heard the Gospel, are they lost? Is that fair?

Now this is only an opinion, so please don't ask me for Scripture on it:-)

In Revelation, "books" are mentioned a number of times; "the books were opened" "another book was opened, which is the Book of Life." "And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books."

Now, I believe, if I read your statement correctly, you are concerned with those who are dead and buried, besides those others you mentioned who have never heard about Jesus. If that assumption is correct, then I would have to say, that, so far as God being fair, we will have to see what is written in the Books.

I believe from my studies of Scripture and other literature pertaining to the Book of Revelation, that there will be only two classes: the Saved and the Lost. The "Books" will have the records of men's lives. The "Book of Life" will have the roll of the Saved. There are many of such mixed character that we would not know where to place them. But God knows.

In closing, my answer will have to be, "Its in the Book."

God Bless.

[pop james]

lost and without hope....... eph 2:12 Paul speaking to ephesian gentiles .....
"at that time you were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers from the covenants of promise, having NO HOPE and without GOD in the world".......This should answer the question of ....what about those who never heard of or become aware of the gospel.......regards ...Pop

[godslove]

to everyone that read my last post, maybe i didn't get my point accross.
the point is why would it be free will for some and for others they would not get a choice to believe? that is fuzzy logic to me. either God decides who will hear or He just left people with the hope of a roll of the dice that they would be in a position to hear and believe .
....God bless

[stacey777]

do you belive in the power of the shed blood that christ has not wasted one drop.

Some believe that God has all the actual blood of Christ gathered up and that none of it is wasted into the ground were it was shed. You know the verse in Psalms were it says that God has all our tears stored up in a bottle could this be the same for the blood? I dont know of any verses to back ths up.

I have also heard of some preacher that belives that christs blood was only evidence of the death that there is nothing actually mysticul about the blood itself it only serves as evidence. I belive this is hertical and has steamed form the cathloic church and the blasphemey of the trans-substanciation?

[pop james]

The blood of Christ was shed for the elect...those the Father gave HIM.john:17.......GODs church, in which Christ is the head, is made up of believers only(elect)...so it would stand to reason that not ONE drop was wasted....."take heed therefore to yourselves,and to all the flock, over which the HOLY SPIRIT has made you overseeers, to feed the church of GOD, which HE has purchased with HIS own blood.".....acts 21:28................Pop

[stacey777]

i do belive that the blood of jesus has been gathered up and i agree with you that the blood of jesus was shed only for belivers. I dont think his blood covers all sin just the sin of the elect that have been chosen before the foundation of the world.

[Smith04]

"He himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not ours only but also for the whole world" (1 John 2:2)

[stacey777]

"He himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not ours only but also for the whole world" (1 John 2:2)
if his blood was shead for all sin then everyone would be able to get into heaven. Because thats the only way im getting into heaven.

If you say that its our accpetance of the offer of sins forgiven that makes the blood effective then we are thinking that were in some way earning it or intitled to it.

I belive he died for our sins and he knows them that are going to come to him his blood would be sufficent for 1000 worlds of people over.

It dosent make sence to say that all this blood is to cleanse away sins and forgive sins but some people will still go to hell if his blood was shed for everyones sins then surley everyone would get into heaven no questions.

yes his blood can cover the whole worlds sins but it dosent as if it did then everyone would be granted acces into heaven as it is by his blood that we are able to enter into heaven.

So the whole world must mean the New world in Heaven and the ours only means the new creature.

[Brucea]

The blood is not wasted if someone has rejected the message of the cross. It will witness against them with out a doubt. The Lamb died to take away the sins of the world (without needing a redefining of the word "world" by leaving out a part of the Greek definition."
Indeed His blood provided for our propitiation but not ours only but yes the sin of the world.
Please let us not try and redefine it to say it does not say what it says!

God Bless Bruce A.

The Word all by itself says that He is not willing that any should perish. Yes, I know some want to redefine this verse to justify their position. Rewriting the Word to justify our position is very dangerous

[KJV]

Romans 3:10-11
10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

Romans 3:23
23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

Romans 5:8-9
8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

Romans 6:23
23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
God bless, KJV :bible

[Recycled]

If you say that its our accpetance of the offer of sins forgiven that makes the blood effective then we are thinking that were in some way earning it or intitled to it.
According to Romans 6:23, eternal life (salvation) is the gift of God. Who gives gifts to people that earn them or deserve them? I give gifts to people that I love. By the same token, Salvation is not earned or deserved by us, but is God's gift of love to us.
Romans 6:23
23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

R~

[Recycled]

"He himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not ours only but also for the whole world" (1 John 2:2)

So the whole world must mean the New world in Heaven and the ours only means the new creature.
It is a common and dangerous mistake to choose your doctrine, then interpret God's inerrant and infallible Word to fit that doctrine. For a proper understanding of God's word, it must be read as written and understood for what it says.

R~

[pop james]

Recycled.....I was very proud of your previous post where-in you made a statement about salvation being a gift.........of course it is a gift and I might point out that is without works.....as you stated....as I read this ...I thought...my, recycled has come a long way...... then I read the next post.....

You said "It is a common and dangerous mistake to choose your doctrine, then interpret Gods inerrant and infallible word to fit that doctrine. For a proper understanding of GODs word, it must be read as written and understood for what it says"......to this I give a resounding......... AMEN

By the way, the 1john 2:2 verse mentioned is a perfect example and exercise in "reading as written"...... "for the whole world" written could never mean every man without exception but indeed every man without distinction....the fact is most of the world will be condemned for their unbeliefe....and will pay for their own sins....these could not have possibly have had their sins paid for by Christ.....also....if we look over to 1 john 5:4 and 5 we will find that those born of GOD overcomes the WORLD....this world is unbelievers minus believers...only stands to reason......then in the 5th verse we see the Christian who overcomes the WORLD again.....could not be believers overcoming believers.....Now finally look at the 19th verse of 1 john 5..."the whole world lies under the sway of the wicked one"....here we have everyone without exception.......for Is 48:8 proclaims we are "transgressors from the womb"......So...I said all that to say this.............Your statement..."it must be read as written and understood for what it says".....in my humble opinion...is right on........regards Pop

[Recycled]

as I read this ...I thought...my, recycled has come a long way......

Thank you, Pop-- you're right, I have come a long way, but I fear it's been too little too late.

I have learned much in this forum, one my most valuable lessons being the lesson of humility and respect.

I have learned that, no matter how fervently I believe what I believe, that my word is not final, nor am I the ultimate authority. I have been reminded and must always remember that God's word is final and He is the ultimate authority.

I have been sharply rebuked for my controversial and sometimes combative approach to the issues raised in this forum and I deserved it. I got so caught up in the heat of battle that I forgot that I am only one small fish in a very large pond, one small voice in a very large crowd. I hope to continue posting in this forum, but in a more acceptable way, raising this small voice in a more civil manner.

My views, like those of many others, are shared by some, while disputed, even rejected by others. It is in the areas that we differ that we can learn, not through doing battle, but through civil interaction.

My quest is to search out the truth of God's word, that it may be the guiding light of my life and that I may share that truth with others.

Have a happy day-- every day-- and may God bless each day with His loving Presence.

Recycled

[Recycled]

...the elect that have been chosen before the foundation of the world.
This is a phrase that I hear quite often, but as I search the Scriptures, I fail to find it.

Could you please explain the scriptural foundation for this phrase? Prior to my involvement in this forum I never had much exposure to the doctrine of election and it is a puzzle to me.

Thank You,

Recycled

[pop james]

eph 1......verse 3and 4...."Blessed is the GOD and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenlies with Christ according as HE chose us in HIM before the foundation of the world, for us to be holy and without blemish before HIM in love"....even furthur revelation is forth coming in the next few verses......Predestination....good pleasure of HIS will.......HE favored us in the beloved....because of the riches of HIS grace....etc.................excellent question Recycled.........GOD bless......regards ....Pop

[Recycled]

Thank you, Pop, for this reply.

I have been studying Ephesians 1 for hours, reading it over and over again, and my understanding of it is that Paul, in the first few verses is referring to himself and his fellow apostles, considering his use of "us" and "we".

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, 4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, 5 having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, 6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He made us accepted in the Beloved.
7 In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace 8 which He made to abound toward us in all wisdom and prudence, 9 having made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His good pleasure which He purposed in Himself, 10 that in the dispensation of the fullness of the times He might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven and which are on earth—in Him. 11 In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will, 12 that we who first trusted in Christ should be to the praise of His glory.

Note how Paul changes from "us" and "we" to addressing the Church at Ephesus as "you".
13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who[b] is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.

It would appear to me that Paul, in his lengthy introduction is confirming his apostolic authority and position to the Ephesian church before launching into his teaching.

I have come to accept election and predestination to some measure and continue in my quest for a deeper understanding.

However, this passage does little to support the election of the church, since, in verses 13 and 14, Paul refers to their trusting after hearing and believing the Gospel.

I welcome your comments as I continue my quest for a deeper understanding of God's word. I have said for some time that I accept the doctrines of election and predestination and I am sincerely seeking a proper understanding of them.

R~

[pop james]

Praise GOD and may HE guide you on your quest. The letter is addressed to the Church in the city of Ephesus. "To the saints who are in ephesus, and fathful in Christ Jesus". It is obvious that the letter is encyclical in nature (intended for wide distribution).
These wonderful blessings Paul speaks of are for the elect believers. I dont think he is drawing a line between others by using we,us, and then you. Paul would have considered himself a very real part of the church of ephesus since he preached there for 3 years after personally establishing it.
These truths pertain to GODs own who were ,through JESUS CHRIST, blessed by predestination 1:3...redemption 1:6-10....an inheritance in CHRIST 1:6-10...resources in CHRIST..1:15-23...New Life in CHRIST 2:1-10...and unified in CHRIST (2:11- 3:13).....by being ALL these things it seems the we, us, and you in the end.... is one and the same...........
It is , of course, very true as you point out.....that the GOD revealed gospel must be heard(rom10:17) and believed (john1:12) to bring salvation......the point of the matter is ...If you hear the gospel with spiritual ears and see the truth with spiritual eyes and believe with a prepared heart(by the HOLY SPIRIT) then you have been effectually called by GOD to salvation from the foundation of the world.
This is a great question and point brother......shows some SERIOUS thought and study........praise GOD....................... regards......Pop