WORLD.....kosmos

[pop james]

Kosmos=universe as a whole:
"GOD that made the world and all things therin, seeing that HE is LORD of heaven and earth"..acts 17:24...this of course is speaking of the universe.

Kosmos=the Earth:
"When Jesus knew that His hour was come that He should depart out of this world unto the Father, having loved His own which were in the world, He loved them unto the end" John 13:1..."according as He hath chosen us in Him before the foundation of the world" eph 1:4......(before the earth was formed)
this of course is speaking of the earth.

Kosmos=world system:
Now is the judgment of this world: Now shall the prince of this world be cast out" john 12:31....this of course is speaking of the world system.

Kosmos= whole human race:
"Now we know that what things so-ever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty befoere GOD" rom 3:19.......here is the whole human race without exception.

Kosmos= humanity minus believers:
"If the world hate you, ye know that it hated me before it hated you John 15:18....Believers do not hate Christ, so that the "world" here MUST signify the world of unbelievers in contrast to believers who love Christ....."For I think that GOD hath set forth us the apostles(believers)last, as it were appointed to death: for we (believers) are made a spectacle unto the world"(unbelievers) 1 cor 4:9......evidence of humanity minus believers.

Kosmos=Gentiles in contrast to jews:
Now if the fall of them(Israel) be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them (israel) the richness of the gentiles: how much more their fulness?(Israel) rom 11:12....the word world here excludes Israel.

Kosmos= believers only:
"The next day John sees Jesus coming to him, and says,Behold the Lamb of GOD, which takes away the sin of the world" john 1:29

For GOD so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that everyone believing into Him should not perish, but have everlasting life" ...
For GOD sent not His Son into the world to condemn the world: but that the world through Him might be saved. John 3:16-17

"For the bread of GOD is HE which comes down from heaven, and gives life to the world john 6:33

"And if any man hear my words, and believe(obey) not , I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world John 12:47

"Namely that GOD was in Christ, reconciling the world to Himself, not imputing(counting) their trespasses to them; and has committed to us the word of reconciliation." 2 cor 5:19.

These last five verses without a doubt seperate GODs chosen people(believers) from the world,(earth.world system, whole human race,humanity minus believers,and gentiles) ......For salvation does not come to the earth or the world system or humanity without exception. In these verses the subject of GODs grace can ONLY be the saved. Upon study of these five verses the only conclusion can be that they, very much ,contrast with the other uses of kosmos(world).................regards....Pop

[larry]

Pop, Please allow me to add a portion of the Lord's prayer that I believe identifies the earth, and the world as different.

John chapter 17 -

4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.

5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

9 I pray for them: (the men which thou gavest me out of the world) I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.

May God bless you in Jesus' name - larry :)

[Brucea]

Flawed Analysis Again. You have not even bothered to leave out part of a definition of a Greek word. You have just stated what will back up your belief with out any authority what-so-ever. I could make some grand statement and present it as the truth. However, it still does not mean that it is true. The JW's Claim that Jesus is not God in much the same way. Slightly change a definition one place say it should read this way in another. It actually means this...
When God said the world it meant the world. Just because you try to redefine what the world means, some to the world in general, some to the gentiles, and some to only the believers. Foolishness! Yes, Foolishness.
If we are going to build our doctrine in this way, we could come to just about any conclusion we want. Twist and tweak a few verses, and yes we can start our own denomination.
The verse in this thread you are twisting.
In another thread you twist Hebrew 6 saying "for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come," is not someone who has been saved.
Enlightened, tasters of the heavenly gift, and partakers of the Holy Ghost! And many other such passages you say don't mean what they say. Tis a great way to build false doctrine.
Bruce A

[godslove]

nice try brother brucea, kosmos means orderly arrangement, by implication it can mean the world, universe, Christians, etc. so if i were you i would check on things before you post them...and as far as heb 6, we have been through this several times.
i am not trying to be mean but i'm afraid that this last quote shows how careful you really are in interpeting things...God bless.

strongs greek
2889. kosmov kosmos kos’-mos; probably from the base of 2865; orderly arrangement, i.e. decoration; by implication, the world (in a wide or narrow sense, including its inhabitants, literally or figuratively [morally]):— adorning, world.

2865. komizw komizo kom-id’-zo; from a primary komew komeo (to tend, i.e. take care of); properly, to provide for, i.e. (by implication) to carry off (as if from harm; genitive case obtain):— bring, receive.

[DanV aka FreetoloveGod]

It's great to study the Bible and it's wonderful to be able to pull out Greek or Hebrew word interpretations. However, one should not come up with off-the-wall Greek words simply to discredit English written versions of the Bible and then somehow infer that if we don't have a Greek or Hebrew reference library, our English Bible version is flawed.

Not trying to belittle anyone or point fingers at those who strive to educate themselves by delving into Greek or Hebrew; just my opinion.

God Bless.

[godslove]

that's funny, weren't you the one in another thread that used a greek word that wasn't even in the verse that you were refering to?
and your definition did not line up with strongs or how it is used in the Bible?

brother dan, you are a smart person, don't you see that your personal beliefs cloud your judgement sometimes. truth is truth. the word kosmos means what it means, it was demonstrated in how it was used in differant situations. then i presented strongs definition and you still find fault?.
...God bless

[pop james]

I hesitate some what to respond to you. I thank "godslove" for the response
given about the material... that should suffice....but I do want you to post the thread you speak of concerning hebrews 6. I certainly do not remember it and the way you quote it convinces me that you are either mistaken or I have been taken out of context.....I must tell you that what I wrote in THIS post concerning the word "world" is not only the most logical explanation but is plain as the nose on ones face. My fear is that you hate the doctrine I preach so much that no matter what I post you would resist............Pop

[DanV aka FreetoloveGod]

If I used a Greek word, out of context, and the possibility is that I my have, then so be it. Are we saying that there are people who "never" make mistakes?

Truth is found in Scripture, without man's interpretation. If we make a point of reading and stop always interpretating the Word of God, our eyes may just be opened, and unclouded truth will appear.

God Bless you Brother godlove.

[godslove]

Your post on 10/16 8:40 a.m. post in the thread free will on Philippians 2:13 had a problem with it
Below the next remark is what I wrote to you asking you to clarify.

I thought I was very nice about it because everyone can make mistakes, but then you had a problem with my using a greek word with the proper definition on this thread. So basically you are saying it is ok for you to use greek when you want too without using any reference to back it up but it’s not ok for me to use a greek word with a reference to back up what I am saying?
Do you see what I am saying about your judgment being cloudy?...hopefully you do…God bless

brother dan, i think there is a problem with your greek word you are using. let me know what you are refering to.

13 For <1063> it is <2076> (5748) God <2316> which <3588> worketh <1754> (5723) in <1722> you <5213> both <2532> to will <2309> (5721) and <2532> to do <1754> (5721) of <5228> his good pleasure <2107>.

2309. yelw thelo thel’-o; or eyelw ethelo eth-el’-o; in certain tenses yelew theleo thel-eh’-o; and eyelew etheleo eth-el-eh’-o; which are otherwise obsolete; apparently strengthened from the alternate form of 138; to determine (as an active option from subjective impulse; whereas 1014 properly denotes rather a passive acquiescence in objective considerations), i.e. choose or prefer (literally or figuratively); by implication, to wish, i.e. be inclined to (sometimes adverbially, gladly); impersonally for the future tense, to be about to; by Hebraism, to delight in:— desire, be disposed (forward), intend, list, love, mean, please, have rather, (be) will (have, -ling, -ling[-ly]).

2107. eudokia eudokia yoo-dok-ee’-ah; from a presumed compound of 2095 and the base of 1380; satisfaction, i.e. (subjectively) delight, or (objectively) kindness, wish, purpose:— desire, good pleasure (will), X seem good.

here are the verses in john that have the greek word which you are talking about.

Joh 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power <1849> to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
Joh 5:27 And hath given him authority <1849> to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.
Joh 10:18 No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power <1849> to lay it down, and I have power <1849> to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.
Joh 17:2 As thou hast given him power <1849> over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.
Joh 19:10 Then saith Pilate unto him, Speakest thou not unto me? knowest thou not that I have power <1849> to crucify thee, and have power <1849> to release thee?
Joh 19:11 Jesus answered, Thou couldest have no power <1849> at all against me, except it were given thee from above: therefore he that delivered me unto thee hath the greater sin.

as you can see it means power, authority etc..

here is strong's greek
1849. exousia exousia ex-oo-see’-ah; from 1832 (in the sense of ability); privilege, i.e. (subjectively) force, capacity, competency, freedom, or (objectively) mastery (concretely, magistrate, superhuman, potentate, token of control), delegated influence:— authority, jurisdiction, liberty, power, right, strength.

i cannot find that greek word in the verse in phillipians that you quoted? ...God bless

[DanV aka FreetoloveGod]

I cannot find that post on 10/16, but I will take your word for it.

If I remember correctly, I was probably trying to use a Gr word for "power" when referring to the passage in Phillipians 2:13.

"for it is God who works in you both to will and to do his good pleasure."

"There is no true power (Gr. exousia-exousia) but God’s power! ... Philippians 2:13.

Anyway, its has nothing to do with who is correct and who is the expert. We are just sinners saved by grace trying to learn the things of God from the Word of God.

God Bless.

[godslove]

brother dan, nothing personal but i am only going to say one thing so you get what i'm saying.
the point is how could you find fault with me for using the greek when you use it?....God bless.

Ro 2:1 Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things.

[allthingspure]

Strongs Greek
2889. kosmov kosmos kos’-mos; probably from the base of 2865; orderly arrangement, i.e. decoration; by implication, the world (in a wide or narrow sense, including its inhabitants, literally or figuratively [morally]) adorning, world.

QUOTE]Kosmos= believers only:
"The next day John sees Jesus coming to him, and says,Behold the Lamb of GOD, which takes away the sin of the world" john 1:29
[/QUOTE]
Wrong...The word 'world' in this verse is Greek...in the above def. you will find the meanings. If you will use each one you will find that the most suited def. is its inhabitance
It will surely not mean orderly arrangement, nor decoration; nor adorning, world.


For GOD so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that everyone believing into Him should not perish, but have everlasting life" ...
For GOD sent not His Son into the world to condemn the world: but that the world through Him might be saved. John 3:16-17


I notice a few words were changes, so I thought I'd quote from KJV :)
John 3:16 > For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotton Son, that whosoever beieveth should not perish but have everlasting life.
Again this word 'world' is speaking of its inhabitance
We know that God did not give His Son for the >>; orderly arrangement, i.e. decoration; or the adorning world. God is not vain.
"For the bread of GOD is HE which comes down from heaven, and gives life to the world john 6:33

Again the word 'world' is its inhabitance, not the orderly arrangment,decoration, nor adorning world.
Jesus was not sent to just decorate and adorn the world.
And if any man hear my words, and believe(obey) not , I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world John 12:47

Again :) Jesus did not come to save the decoration, orderly arrangment,nor adorning world.
"Namely that GOD was in Christ, reconciling the world to Himself, not imputing(counting) their trespasses to them; and has committed to us the word of reconciliation." 2 cor 5:19.

Again :) God was in Christ reconciling the 'world' (its inhabitance) unto Himself
These last five verses without a doubt seperate GODs chosen people(believers) from the world,(earth.world system, whole human race,humanity minus believers,and gentiles) ......For salvation does not come to the earth or the world system or humanity without exception. In these verses the subject of GODs grace can ONLY be the saved. Upon study of these five verses the only conclusion can be that they, very much ,contrast with the other uses of kosmos(world).................regards....Pop

Wrong these verses prove that God sent His Son to save Anyone of the worlds inhabitance who believes..and those who believe will be engrafted into Jesus Christ the predestinated one, therefore those who are in Christ are predestinated.

allthingspure

[OneJoe]

"The next day John sees Jesus coming to him, and says,Behold the Lamb of GOD, which takes away the sin of the world" john 1:29

I noticed you posted this scripture. You claim kosmos..or...world also includes ALL men on earth. If that is the case, then this very scripture which you posted proves you wrong. Because Christ did not take away the sins of ALL men on earth, but rather a select few.


I notice a few words were changes, so I thought I'd quote from KJV
John 3:16 > For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotton Son, that whosoever beieveth should not perish but have everlasting life.
Again this word 'world' is speaking of its inhabitance
We know that God did not give His Son for the >>; orderly arrangement, i.e. decoration; or the adorning world. God is not vain. Whosoever is a narrow sense of the worlds inhabitants allthingspure. Thus it couldn't mean all men when scripture is clear that only those who believe can be saved. There is nothing universal about that.

"For the bread of GOD is HE which comes down from heaven, and gives life to the world john 6:33


Again the word 'world' is its inhabitance, not the orderly arrangment,decoration, nor adorning world.
Jesus was not sent to just decorate and adorn the world.

The bread of life did not come down and give LIFE to all men on earth; therefore, you have yet again proved yourself wrong. The bread of life only came down and gave life to a select few!

And if any man hear my words, and believe(obey) not , I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world John 12:47



Again Jesus did not come to save the decoration, orderly arrangment,nor adorning world.

No scripture doesn't say adorning in that verse. The idea that is being pointed out is that Kosmos referrs to the adorning. The adorning is often related to the bride or elect! Thus a person can easily gather the idea this scripture is pointing out that God loves his church so much that he gave his son for it. This is also pointed out in Eph 5:25.

"Namely that GOD was in Christ, reconciling the world to Himself, not imputing(counting) their trespasses to them; and has committed to us the word of reconciliation." 2 cor 5:19.


Again God was in Christ reconciling the 'world' (its inhabitance) unto Himself

Once again, did God reconcile the whole world to himself? Did he make every man on earth accepted? No! He most certainly did not. He is only making some accepted. He is only making his bride accepted! Thus a person can't argue he is meaning all men on earth. What your claiming contradicts the context of scripture!

Wrong these verses prove that God sent His Son to save Anyone of the worlds inhabitance who believes..and those who believe will be engrafted into Jesus Christ the predestinated one, therefore those who are in Christ are predestinated.

No, not anyone! It is only the chosen ones from the foundation of the world! You claim "anyone", but Math 7:21 says Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Also, you do realize that predestinated is basically saying preselected from the foundation of the world? So once again, a person is not becoming preselected after they have done something. They are preselected before and their faith is a result of their being a chosen one!

[allthingspure]

"The next day John sees Jesus coming to him, and says, Behold the Lamb of GOD, which takes away the sin of the world" John 1:29

I noticed you posted this scripture. You claim kosmos..or...world also includes ALL men on earth. If that is the case, then this very scripture which you posted proves you wrong. Because Christ did not take away the sins of ALL men on earth, but rather a select few.

Actually Strongs Concordance is the one who gave the def. :) So it is not me who you are trying to prove wrong. So according to your understanding Strongs Con. is wrong in its def. of the word world?
Can you prove that the word 'world' in this verse has another def. other than its inhabitance? I'm not asking for an opinion but sound proof.
Also do you not believe that the blood of Christ can take away the sin of all the inhabitance of the world should they come to Him for forgivness?
The select few who has had their sins removed are those who believe the gospel of Jesus Christ.
Jesus died for anyone who believes, but not all will accept the sacrifice that He provided.
Whosoever is a narrow sense of the worlds inhabitants allthingspure. Thus it couldn't mean all men when scripture is clear that only those who believe can be saved. There is nothing universal about that.
I did not say that 'whosoever' ment all of the worlds inhabitance...
I said (according to Strongs) that the 'word' world' means its inhabitance.
You brought up the 'whosoever' and I agree 'whosoever' of the worlds inhabitance who believe the gospel should be saved :) I did not say that all men would be saved...
We are talking about the word 'world' and its meaning.
Do you not agree that the word 'world' in John 3:16 is speaking of its inhabitance? And the word 'whosoever' means 'whosoever of the worlds inhabitance that believeth should be saved?
The bread of life did not come down and give LIFE to all men on earth; therefore, you have yet again proved yourself wrong. The bread of life only came down and gave life to a select few!

Ok Joe seeing as to how its not me you are trying to prove wrong,:) Prove to me with solid proof that Strong Con. is wrong in its def. of the word 'World'?

"For the bread of GOD is HE which comes down from heaven, and gives life to the world John 6:33

I agree God gives life to the 'select few' inhabitance of the world who first believe the gospel. but that does not change the fact that the 'world' means its inhabitance.

And if any man hear my words, and believe(obey) not , I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world John 12:47
No scripture doesn't say adorning in that verse. The idea that is being pointed out is that Kosmos referrs to the adorning. The adorning is often related to the bride or elect! Thus a person can easily gather the idea this scripture is pointing out that God loves his church so much that he gave his son for it. This is also pointed out in Eph 5:25.

How is it that you can agree with Strongs in this verse, but not the others?

"Namely that GOD was in Christ, reconciling the world to Himself, not imputing(counting) their trespasses to them; and has committed to us the word of reconciliation." 2 cor 5:19
Once again, did God reconcile the whole world to himself? Did he make every man on earth accepted? No! He most certainly did not. He is only making some accepted. He is only making his bride accepted! Thus a person can't argue he is meaning all men on earth. What your claiming contradicts the context of scripture!
I don't think we have a problem agreeing that not all of the inhabitance of the world will come to Christ. But Christ died that whosoever will let him come.

Once again Joe, Strongs gave the def.:)
The 'world' means its inhabitance and I agree that not all of the worlds inhabitance will be saved ... only those select few that you speak of, those who believe the gospel when they hear it.

No, not anyone! It is only the chosen ones from the foundation of the world! You claim "anyone", but Math 7:21 says Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Also, you do realize that predestinated is basically saying preselected from the foundation of the world? So once again, a person is not becoming preselected after they have done something. They are preselected before and their faith is a result of their being a chosen one!

Yes anyone of the inhabitance of the world who truly believe and is baptized shall be saved.

Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
This scripture is so very true, the ones who enter into the kingdom of God are the ones who doeth the will of the Father.
We are talking about anyone who truly believes, not just a person who says Lord, Lord. But those who put action with their faith by doing the will of the Father.
And yes I know that predestinated is basically saying preselected from the foundation of the world? God preselected that those who first believe the gospel will be sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise.An therefore ordained that those who believe will be predestinated because they are in Christ Jesus.

God bless
allthingspure

[godslove]

To allthingspure,

2889. kosmov kosmos kos’-mos; probably from the base of 2865; orderly arrangement, i.e. decoration; by implication, the world (in a wide or narrow sense, including its inhabitants, literally or figuratively [morally]):— adorning, world.

2865. komizw komizo kom-id’-zo; from a primary komew komeo (to tend, i.e. take care of); properly, to provide for, i.e. (by implication) to carry off (as if from harm; genitive case obtain):— bring, receive.

The word kosmos has a definition, it also has implications. World is the best word I can see to use for it.

Here are some easy examples…


Mt 5:14 Ye are the light of the world <2889>. A city that is set on an hill cannot be hid.
Joh 7:7 The world <2889> cannot hate you; but me it hateth, because I testify of it, that the works thereof are evil.
Joh 12:19 The Pharisees therefore said among themselves, Perceive ye how ye prevail nothing? behold, the world <2889> is gone after him.
I believe that world is people here.


Mt 16:26 For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world <2889>, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?
I believe that world is worldly goods here.


Joh 21:25 And there are also many other things which Jesus did, the which, if they should be written every one, I suppose that even the world <2889> itself could not contain the books that should be written. Amen.
Ac 17:24 God that made the world <2889> and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands;
Mt 26:13 Verily I say unto you, Wheresoever this gospel shall be preached in the whole world <2889>, there shall also this, that this woman hath done, be told for a memorial of her.
I believe that world is the earth here



1Pe 3:3 Whose adorning <2889> let it not be that outward adorning of plaiting the hair, and of wearing of gold, or of putting on of apparel;
here is kosmos translated adorning?


1Jo 5:19 And we know that we are of God, and the whole world <2889> lieth in wickedness.
I believe that world here is unsaved..


1Ti 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world <2889>, received up into glory.
I believe that world is the saved here…

God bless

[allthingspure]

I fully agree godslove
Thanks for the post :)
God Bless you too!
allthingspure

[germanJoy]

In the world, there are believers and unbelievers but of the world, there are only the unbelievers. The bible describes the believers as in the world but not of the world just as Christ Himself.

And I am no more in the world; and yet they themselves are in the world, and I come to Thee. Holy Father, keep them in Thy name...I have given them Thy word; and the world has hated them, because they are not of the world.. John 17: 11,14

From this analysis, one can draw a conclusion that Christ distinguishes the believers and unbelievers only with "in and of" when speaking about the "world" referring to believers and unbelievers.

So now let us see what His Word says about the world:

I am the light of the world telling us that Christ is the light of the world of unbelievers.

The next day John sees Jesus coming to him, and says,Behold the Lamb of GOD, which takes away the sin of the world" john 1:29

When the Lamb of God came into the world, the sins of those coming out of darkness were removed but those who hated the light remained in darkness. Since the Lamb of God is offered for the sins or the sinners of the world, the self-righteous religious people as well as the self-righteous unbelievers could not receive it, both hated the Light.

Neither did the Bible say that Christ is the light in the world nor did it say that the Lamb of God takes away the sins in the world which could indicate that these verses are exclusively for the "believers". If we know how to read between the lines, we will begin to understand that Christ's mission was to come for the sinners and not for the righteous, for the world and not for the godless and those who claim to be the "chosen".... which one of these should we be? :-)

[Recycled]

I am the light of the world telling us that Christ is the light of the world of unbelievers.
Could we take this to say, then, that Christ is the source of light to the unbelieving world?

Jesus said, "...I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance". (Matt 9:13, Mark 2:17, Luke 5:32)
...we will begin to understand that Christ's mission was to come for the sinners and not for the righteous....

R~

[godslove]

brother recycled, did you ever pick up a rock and watch all the bugs that were under there scatter...they hate the light.

also He did not come to call the pharisees, (or whoever) who were self righteous.
1Co 1:27 But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;

God bless.

[OneJoe]

Actually Strongs Concordance is the one who gave the def. So it is not me who you are trying to prove wrong. So according to your understanding Strongs Con. is wrong in its def. of the word world?
Can you prove that the word 'world' in this verse has another def. other than its inhabitance? I'm not asking for an opinion but sound proof.

Sound proof eh? Proof is that Christ didn't take away the sins of every man on earth. It is as i said before. If Christ took away the sin of every man in this world then we wouldn't have to have this debate now would we..:-) I am not refuting that the word "world" includes its habitants. What I am disagreeing with is that the context is not referring to all men on earth. After all, not all will become saved. Not all have had their sins removed. Not all are chosen.

Also do you not believe that the blood of Christ can take away the sin of all the inhabitance of the world should they come to Him for forgivness? Allthingspure, if God called a man and quickened him then I have no doubt he would become saved. I believe that if it were in God's will to save every man on earth then we would all become saved no matter what. But since God has not willed all men to salvation, then I rest assured he will save those he plans to save. Not that any of us deserve his Grace anyhow.

Do you not agree that the word 'world' in John 3:16 is speaking of its inhabitance? And the word 'whosoever' means 'whosoever of the worlds inhabitance that believeth should be saved?

If you look at the word "so" in John 3:16, you will see it basically mean "in this manner". For God, in this manner, so loved the world he gave his son. I don't want to stray too far here with examples since we might get a wise guy who doesn't like it..:-) No I am not saying World doesn't include the inhabitants. What I am saying is that I don't believe "world" is referring to all of mankind. I believe it is saying God, because of his elect, loves them and gave his only son so that whosoever believes (elect) will have eternal life.

Jesus died for anyone who believes, but not all will accept the sacrifice that He provided. Good so we agree his death was for those who would believe. We also agree that not everyone will yield to his calling. But do you believe that before we become saved, we have a spiritual condition being dead in our sins and unable to know the things of God which actually keeps us from going to him? Would you agree that is why not everyone yields to his calling? Would you agree that God and only HE can call us, raise us from our spiritual death, and give us the gift of salvation?

Ok Joe seeing as to how its not me you are trying to prove wrong, Prove to me with solid proof that Strong Con. is wrong in its def. of the word 'World'?

"For the bread of GOD is HE which comes down from heaven, and gives life to the world John 6:33

I agree God gives life to the 'select few' inhabitance of the world who first believe the gospel. but that does not change the fact that the 'world' means its inhabitance.
So long as we agree that "world" does not always mean every man on earth then there is nothing to refute. It all depends on the context of the scripture and you agree it is referring to a select few. So we are in agreement.


I don't think we have a problem agreeing that not all of the inhabitance of the world will come to Christ. But Christ died that whosoever will let him come. Yes we agree not everyone will come to Christ. But if your last statement means what I believe it means then I don't agree with it. You said: "But Christ died that whosoever will let him come". I don't believe we LET God do anything. We are not his boss. We do not make the decisions, he does. The natural man who is in rebellion against God certainly doesn't desire God and once God calls us and quickens us, there is no LET involved. Once God has done this, we have become saved. Therefore, there is nothing more needed on our part except to walk in the Spirit and as long as Christ is working in us, that we shall do.

God Bless you!

[allthingspure]

Sound proof eh? Proof is that Christ didn't take away the sins of every man on earth. It is as i said before. If Christ took away the sin of every man in this world then we wouldn't have to have this debate now would we.. I am not refuting that the word "world" includes its habitants. What I am disagreeing with is that the context is not referring to all men on earth. After all, not all will become saved. Not all have had their sins removed. Not all are chosen.

Joe I did not say that Jesus actually took away the sins of the whole world....
I said the following ?? Also do you not believe that the blood of Christ can take away the sin of all the inhabitance of the world should they come to Him for forgivness?
The select few who have had their sins removed are those who believe the gospel of Jesus Christ.
Jesus died for anyone who believes, but not all will accept the sacrifice that He provided.[/B]
The scripture is talking about all of the inhabitance of the world who come to Jesus Christ for forgivness. [B]John 1:29

I believe that if it were in God's will to save every man on earth then we would all become saved no matter what. But since God has not willed all men to salvation, then I rest assured he will save those he plans to save. Not that any of us deserve his Grace anyhow.

I believe that you have been given many scriptures that prove that it is Gods will that all men come to repentance.... no need for me to repost them we will be going in circles again...:) you will argue that the scriptures do not actually mean what they say.
Where did you come up with the idea that God has not willed all men to be saved? I'll use your line lol :) > Where in the Bible does it say that?

What I am saying is that I don't believe "world" is referring to all of mankind. I believe it is saying God, because of his elect, loves them and gave his only son so that whosoever believes (elect) will have eternal life.

This is another of the many disagreement we have....lol
How can it not? The inhabitance of the world covers all mankind. And all of the mankind that believe will be saved:)
But do you believe that before we become saved, we have a spiritual condition being dead in our sins and unable to know the things of God which actually keeps us from going to him?Yes I agree
Would you agree that is why not everyone yields to his calling? No I don't
Would you agree that God and only HE can call us, raise us from our spiritual death, and give us the gift of salvation?
Yes I agree
But if your last statement means what I believe it means then I don't agree with it. You said: "But Christ died that whosoever will let him come". I don't believe we LET God do anything. We are not his boss. We do not make the decisions, he does.
Maybe I did not type it in the right way but this is what I ment...But Christ died that,"Whosoever will, let him come." As Jesus stated in Rev.22:17
There are some things man can stop God from doing. But that is another subject.:)
No we are not Gods boss...
Yes we do make decisions...
God Bless ya Joe!

allthingspure

[OneJoe]

Joe I did not say that Jesus actually took away the sins of the whole world....
I said the following ?? Also do you not believe that the blood of Christ can take away the sin of all the inhabitance of the world should they come to Him for forgivness?
The select few who have had their sins removed are those who believe the gospel of Jesus Christ.
Jesus died for anyone who believes, but not all will accept the sacrifice that He provided.[/b]
[b]The scripture is talking about all of the inhabitance of the world who come to Jesus Christ for forgivness. John 1:29

Allthingspure, I thought I answered these questions but I will attempt to do so again. First, if your view of John 1:29 is that Christ took away only the sin of those in the world who would believe, then you are referring to the elect and this I agree with. Now, to answer your question. If someone came to Christ for forgiveness and were chosen from the beginning of the world to obtain the gift of salvation, then yes they could and would become saved. If God had chosen everyone on earth, then once he opened their eyes to see the truth and believe, he would then seal them with the Spirit of promise and fulfill his will. Therefore, since God is doing all the work of salvation, then everyone on earth could become saved IF God had willed that from the beginning. But as we know, the bible does not teach that. As you yourself said, not everyone will believe. They do not believe because they are not chosen from the beginning. They do not believe because it was not God's will for that person to become saved. I hope this answers your question.

I believe that you have been given many scriptures that prove that it is Gods will that all men come to repentance.... no need for me to repost them we will be going in circles again... you will argue that the scriptures do not actually mean what they say.
Where did you come up with the idea that God has not willed all men to be saved? I'll use your line lol > Where in the Bible does it say that? Allthingspure, the reason I disagree with your view on those scriptures is because it makes God look like he is dependant on us, like he is not strong enough to fufill his will. If God plans to save someone, they WILL become saved. However, I am curious about something. Your saying these scriptures referr to God's desire for all men to become saved, but they will not become saved because they are not chosen? Wouldn't that be an oxymoron? He desires something but will not fulfill it as only he can? If I say these verses are referring to all of the elect as they do tend to referr only to the saints then it doesn't contradict scripture when it says He desires all men to become saved. I know he desires the elect to be saved therefore he works out what he willed. I have tried to view only the possibility that he desires all men on earth to be saved but they can't come to God because of their spiritual condition, but the problem I run into is that since God is doing the work of saving, why wouldn't he just save them. I don't buy into his not being able to save them because they won't accept him. That puts God at the mercy of mans will.

This is another of the many disagreement we have....lol
How can it not? The inhabitance of the world covers all mankind. And all of the mankind that believe will be saved

Kosmos can have a narrow sense of the worlds inhabitants and I believe it does. The Strongs Co. states that World also includes its inhabitants and also states it can be in a wide or narrow sense. Therefore, sense I believe looking at this scripture as referring to all of mankind contradicts other scriptures, I do not view it that way. "I pray not for the world"..."Love not the world"......"thou hatest all workers of iniquity". These are just a few scriptures which I don't believe harmonize with the universal view you claim in this scripture.

But do you believe that before we become saved, we have a spiritual condition being dead in our sins and unable to know the things of God which actually keeps us from going to him?

Yes I agree


Would you agree that is why not everyone yields to his calling?

No I don't

Okay, you believe in the depravity of man keeping him from coming to God? But you don't believe that is why all men do not yield to his calling? What other reason is there for man not yielding? If you say Free Will is why they don't come. Then you have just put Free Will and spiritual death as equals for the same reason.

There are some things man can stop God from doing. But that is another subject. Yes, this is another topic which I did respond to about chaning God's mind.


Thank you for your reply.
God Bless!


Onejoe

[germanJoy]

Could we take this to say, then, that Christ is the source of light to the unbelieving world?

Jesus said, "...I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance". (Matt 9:13, Mark 2:17, Luke 5:32)


R~
Well yes Christ indeed is the Light of the unbelieving world and He declared us also to be the light of that world. Matt. 5:14 You are the light of the world. A city set on a hill cannot be hidden.

I needed to emphasize this since a discussion came up that the word "world" is at times refered exclusively to "believers". I can't find any verses to support that theory.

[OneJoe]

Neither did the Bible say that Christ is the light in the world nor did it say that the Lamb of God takes away the sins in the world which could indicate that these verses are exclusively for the "believers". If we know how to read between the lines, we will begin to understand that Christ's mission was to come for the sinners and not for the righteous, for the world and not for the godless and those who claim to be the "chosen".... which one of these should we be? Hi Germanjoy, you have made some interesting points here which have me pondering. I do still believe Christ gave himself for his sheep because that is exactly what Christ said he came for. Your point about Christ coming for the sinners was to be expected. This however does not refute the fact he came for the chosen people. After all, whether it sounds good to you or not, no one can get into heaven unless the Father has chosen them. You speak of "chosen" as if that is something we wouldn't want to be. But since those IN Christ are the chosen ones and Christ is the only way, I would expect everyone to hope God has chosen them. Furthermore, there is no doubt that Christ is the propitation "of the whole world", but his purpose was for his sheep. No Christ did not die for the righteous. He died for sinners. Christs death was for those who God planned to save. Before he saved them, they were sinners "of the world".

Rom 5:8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

It is only once they are sealed that they are merely "in the world". Like I said, you have made an excellent point about "in" and "of", but it hardly refutes what the bible says about Christ dieing for his people. The point you have made would certainly support that Christ died for sinners, but since the plan of salvation is for the elect, they will be the only ones who get saved. It is because of his death that we are made accepted. God has justified the unGodly in each and every person who now believes and has become saved. Christ is the light of the world. He is a light of the sinners which He loved from the beginning and He has laid down his life for the sheep.

[germanJoy]

Hi Germanjoy, you have made some interesting points here which have me pondering. I do still believe Christ gave himself for his sheep because that is exactly what Christ said he came for. Your point about Christ coming for the sinners was to be expected. This however does not refute the fact he came for the chosen people. After all, whether it sounds good to you or not, no one can get into heaven unless the Father has chosen them. You speak of "chosen" as if that is something we wouldn't want to be. But since those IN Christ are the chosen ones and Christ is the only way, I would expect everyone to hope God has chosen them. Furthermore, there is no doubt that Christ is the propitation "of the whole world", but his purpose was for his sheep. No Christ did not die for the righteous. He died for sinners. Christs death was for those who God planned to save. Before he saved them, they were sinners "of the world".

I spoke of the word "chosen" as how it is used in this thread. The "whole" discussion is developing in a manner where the "chosen" have to hate the enemies of God versus Christ's teaching of loving their enemies.

Apparently, the Father alone knows whom He has chosen which is to be revealed on the judgement day. Our sole tasks, which we are to be held accountable for, are: to love one another and above all, love our enemies.

Christ's one purpose when He came was to save the world and not, I repeat. not to judge them which is also expected of us. The other purpose was to look for the lost sheeps which we also need to.

They were not just "sinners" but also "enemies" of God. Now if we hate all God's enemies, we will become stumbling blocks for them to enter the kingdom of God which will apparently lead to our "falling away".... :cf

Woe to the world because of its stumbling blocks! For it is inevitable that stumbling blocks come; but woe to that man through whom the stumbling blocks comes! Matthew 18:7

It is only once they are sealed that they are merely "in the world". Like I said, you have made an excellent point about "in" and "of", but it hardly refutes what the bible says about Christ dieing for his people. The point you have made would certainly support that Christ died for sinners, but since the plan of salvation is for the elect, they will be the only ones who get saved. It is because of his death that we are made accepted. God has justified the unGodly in each and every person who now believes and has become saved. Christ is the light of the world. He is a light of the sinners which He loved from the beginning and He has laid down his life for the sheep.

The plan of salvation was for the whole world not just for a few. But sadly not the whole world love the Light. The plan of salvation was plainly and clearly written in John 3:16

For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son....

Had John meant the "world" to be the "elect"....he could written John 3:16 like this:

For God so loved the elect that He gave His only begotten Son....

Obviously, the plan of salvation is universal...offered to all; accepted by some but rejected by others (freewill) as God called some and hardened others (election). When He said: "He hardens those whom He hardens", He robbed no one of freewill but instead just indicated His sovereignity and His power. But when He gave us, His disciples, the authority and power to represent Christ and His Word on earth, we also received the privelege to be priests, praying for and standing in the gap between God and men. What a great privilege but entails a lot of sacrifice on our part i.e., we need to give up our own freewill and allow God's perfect will to be above all! :)

[pop james]

Allow GOD??????.........there in lies YOUR stumbling block................Pop

[OneJoe]

I am well pleased to see the multiple colors you used on this post. Do you know how much easier that was to follow and not lose my spot..:-) Anyhow, back to the point at hand.

Christ's one purpose when He came was to save the world and not, I repeat. not to judge them which is also expected of us. The other purpose was to look for the lost sheeps which we also need to. Yes, Christ has a purpose. Though that purpose is where we disagree. But since were all too familiar with each others view, I will spare you having to read it again. Although, you did mention something else in this short passage about not judging them. You realize the bible teaches over and over about how we should judge and discern whether a spirit is of God. You also know the saints shall judge the world.

They were not just "sinners" but also "enemies" of God. Now if we hate all God's enemies, we will become stumbling blocks for them to enter the kingdom of God which will apparently lead to our "falling away".... I understand what your saying and why you believe this. I know your intentions are good. But to hate God's enemies which are those who are working against God, blasheming and stealing from the kingdom of God, hardly leaves room for us to become a stumbling block. They are already working against God with all their might. Can we not hate an enemy of God and at the same time teach the Gospel "IF" for some reason they came looking for an answer. Though we both know that no one can come unless the Father calls them. So there is no possibility of being a stumbling block for them.

Obviously, the plan of salvation is universal...offered to all; accepted by some but rejected by others (freewill) as God called some and hardened others (election). When He said: "He hardens those whom He hardens", He robbed no one of freewill but instead just indicated His sovereignity and His power. But when He gave us, His disciples, the authority and power to represent Christ and His Word on earth, we also received the privelege to be priests, praying for and standing in the gap between God and men. What a great privilege but entails a lot of sacrifice on our part i.e., we need to give up our own freewill and allow God's perfect will to be above all!

The bible does not teach that salvation is offered to all people. Even you yourself said that God hardens some to show his sovereignty. If he hardens this person, are they getting the offer also? Is that not a little illogical to say he calls someone but blinds them also so they can't see what he wants them to see? Talk about being a puppet. That view would make us a puppet for sure. But you insist that their rejection or accepting of the Gospel is Free Will, but the bible teaches we must be called, and quickened or born again to know the things of God so this wouldn't be Free Willl. Free Will would be going to God without his help or intervention. Also, you referred to the power given to the disciples, but please don't forget that your referring to a saved person. No one is disputing that we can go to God, serve him, offer something freely, once we have become saved. What I am disputing is that man can go to God of his own Free Will without intervention on God's part. After all, that is what Free Will is defined as, a will free from outside influence or intervention. If you believe in Free Will prior to being saved, then you must also believe a person can go to God without any work on his part. If you believe God must intervene, then I'm not sure how you believe in Free Will. However, if you look at Free Will simply as being able to do something freely, but still according to God's will, then you must also know that man is still enslaved to sin and can do nothing freely toward God until after he is quickened. Such as you brought up "free will offerings" at one time. There is no dispute that a saved man can freely offer something to God. If scripture teaches an unsaved man can go to God on his own part without God intervening, then I must know where. But scripture would have to say he did not become saved like everyone else did in the bible. I'm sure we will never see that in scripture because everyone who God willed has become saved according to the same plan and purpose which He purposed from the foundation of the world. :-)

[germanJoy]

Allow GOD??????.........there in lies YOUR stumbling block................Pop
I wrote:
we need to give up our own freewill and allow God's perfect will to be above all!

There is no need for us to be philosophical in approaching this issue of allowing or should I rather use the word "letting" the will of God be done in us. For even the Lord's prayer which we also often pray says: Let Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven.

If we are not allowed to say "let God's will be done", then we will all be in big trouble. :-)

If letting/allowing God's will to you a lie, then your truth is "not letting or not allowing" God's will.... and I will certainly never agree to that.... :-)

Blessings,

germanJoy

[germanJoy]

I am well pleased to see the multiple colors you used on this post. Do you know how much easier that was to follow and not lose my spot..:-) Anyhow, back to the point at hand.
You're most welcome. It was a great pleasure for me to please you...:) I just didn't want to break the sentences apart in order for me not to lose the sense of the whole paragraph as I had to deal with each sentence separately and sequentially. Anyway thanks for the kind comment. :-)

Yes, Christ has a purpose. Though that purpose is where we disagree. But since were all too familiar with each others view, I will spare you having to read it again. Although, you did mention something else in this short passage about not judging them. You realize the bible teaches over and over about how we should judge and discern whether a spirit is of God. You also know the saints shall judge the world.

We judge the teachings but not the followers and the teachers. If we render judgement to them, we have placed ourselves in the position where only God qualifies. We sort of "predestined" them by our judgement. You see the minute we judge a particular person "to be eternally condemned in hell", we render a verdict upon him. What if he receives Christ tomorrow or in the future? That would make us false prophets, liars, and/or false judges. The only words we may release from our mouths are God's Word that says, "whoever believes (Jesus Christ) not will be condemned and whoever believes will have eternal life". Now if asked, we may answer that an Islam believer will be condemned if he doesn't receive Christ according to Scriptures. A Catholic will not enter and see the kingdom of God if he doesn't repent of idolatry, Mary worshipping, salvation by works, etc. and be born from above, again according to Scriptures. That is the right judgement the bible is telling us about.

Another good reason why we should not judge a particular person (for e.g., George Bush) is simple: we are neither omniscient nor omnipotent. Our judging of angels is not now in this life but at the time of our PERFECTION, when we become just like Christ as His Bride, His own and that would be in His time. Judging of angels was mentioned as an emphasis to the fact that we may judge the matters of this life.

I understand what your saying and why you believe this. I know your intentions are good. But to hate God's enemies which are those who are working against God, blasheming and stealing from the kingdom of God, hardly leaves room for us to become a stumbling block. They are already working against God with all their might. Can we not hate an enemy of God and at the same time teach the Gospel "IF" for some reason they came looking for an answer. Though we both know that no one can come unless the Father calls them. So there is no possibility of being a stumbling block for them.

Joe, we hate their sins but not them. How will we be able to show the light of Christ in us if we hate them? How will we be able to preach the gospel to them compassionately if we hate them by not counting or looking forward by faith on their salvation? How will we be able to display God's works through us if we slap their faces in response to their slapping us?

In the Old Covenant/Testament as also written in Psalms, it was self-explanatory that they needed to "hate their enemies, God's enemies". Why? because they had to kill them i.e., slaughter them. God commanded to kill even their enemie's women and children. Yes, this was made possible by their hatred towards their enemies. They had to be zealous over God's commandments. Would they be able to kill their enemies had God commanded them "to love them"? Not at all!

But praise God the Old Covenant had been made obsolete, invalidated by the blood of the Lamb of God that takes away the sins of the whole world. We are now servants of the New Covenant that commands us to love our enemies. Why? because the salvation is now offered to all which was not the case in the Old Covenant. We should certainly love our enemies just as God loves them. The judgement is still yet to come at the time of Christ's coming but as of now, today is the day and the time of salvation offered to the world, the time of repentance, the time of reconciling oneself to God who is slow to anger, rich in mercy and abounding in lovingkindness! :)

The bible does not teach that salvation is offered to all people. Even you yourself said that God hardens some to show his sovereignty. If he hardens this person, are they getting the offer also?

The Cross of Christ is unlimited in time, in purpose, in its effectivity, in race, in nation, in peoples, etc. It is the eternal perpetual one-time sacrifice made available for all. Thus the gospel is preached, the good news is proclaimed... salvation becomes FOR THE FIRST IN THE HISTORY OF HUMANITY available to all populations in the world; no longer just for a particular people, a particular tribe, or nation. Yes salvation as God's gift is offered to all but not all receives it. Have you ever experience rejecting a gift? It is similar if not exactly that situation.

Now when God says He hardens whom He hardens, He indicates His sovereignty over those who reject His precious gift. He proves that He is God and they, the stubborn-minded, are helpless useless nobodys in the hands of the Almighty. :-)

Is that not a little illogical to say he calls someone but blinds them also so they can't see what he wants them to see? Talk about being a puppet. That view would make us a puppet for sure.

I said He calls some and hardens others...I did not claim that He calls some and those He calls He blinds or hardens.

But you insist that their rejection or accepting of the Gospel is Free Will, but the bible teaches we must be called, and quickened or born again to know the things of God so this wouldn't be Free Willl. Free Will would be going to God without his help or intervention.

I personally define freewill quite differently than perhaps you do.... freewill to me is a voluntary act with a full conscience of one's doing or own decision. Here there is a freedom of choice, i.e., not forced by anyone. The opposite of freewill is an involuntary act....of one's decision. Here there is no freedom of choice, i.e., forced by someone.

If I say I come to God with my freewill, I indicate my whole-hearted willingness out of my decision to choose life and not death. And with this God's intervention over my free decision is never excluded. For it is by freely accepting His intervention that I can fully submit myself to His will. For I rather freely accept than forcedly accept God. And I guess this is where our differences lie. By this I say that either forced or freewill, still God's intervention is necessary.

Also, you referred to the power given to the disciples, but please don't forget that your referring to a saved person. No one is disputing that we can go to God, serve him, offer something freely, once we have become saved. What I am disputing is that man can go to God of his own Free Will without intervention on God's part. After all, that is what Free Will is defined as, a will free from outside influence or intervention.

I don't know who defined freewill to be free of God's intervention. I never did.

If you believe in Free Will prior to being saved, then you must also believe a person can go to God without any work on his part.

I am not sure whether I fully understand your point here. Once we get saved we need to be dead to self and that includes dead to our own will. For that is the only way for Christ to live in us by being dead to our self, dead to our own will. So that means before we were saved, we were alive for our selves, by and in our selves, and of our own will; consciously (the fallen away state) or unconsciously (the unbelieving state).

If you believe God must intervene, then I'm not sure how you believe in Free Will. However, if you look at Free Will simply as being able to do something freely, but still according to God's will, then you must also know that man is still enslaved to sin and can do nothing freely toward God until after he is quickened.

No one, either a freewill or a forced will believer, can boast except in the Lord. Of course an unsaved person is a slave of sin because the scale of darkness is blinding his eyes of God's righteousness. Unless the Spirit of God removes the scale, he will remain blind and in his sin. Thus he will never be in the position to know God's will for he only could know and follow his own will.

Such as you brought up "free will offerings" at one time. There is no dispute that a saved man can freely offer something to God. If scripture teaches an unsaved man can go to God on his own part without God intervening, then I must know where But scripture would have to say he did not become saved like everyone else did in the bible. I'm sure we will never see that in scripture because everyone who God willed has become saved according to the same plan and purpose which He purposed from the foundation of the world. :-)

Amen to that! :)

[OneJoe]

Joe, we hate their sins but not them. How will we be able to show the light of Christ in us if we hate them? How will we be able to preach the gospel to them compassionately if we hate them by not counting or looking forward by faith on their salvation? How will we be able to display God's works through us if we slap their faces in response to their slapping us?

These are the words of a person with a good heart and I understand your position. But I believe we can hate a person for working against God and at the same time desire nothing greater than salvation for them. For there is no greater gift than eternal life with God. The same applies to how God views us. Scripture teaches that God loves us and at the same time teaches he hates all workers of iniquity. This would seem like an oxymoron, but since there is the new creature and old, we can better see how God could do both. God can hate the old man working sin and wickedness with every waking breath. Meanwhile, if he has chosen to save that person they are also loved. For it is the new creature in us that God loves. It is the man serving God in which He delights.

In the Old Covenant/Testament as also written in Psalms, it was self-explanatory that they needed to "hate their enemies, God's enemies". Why? because they had to kill them i.e., slaughter them. God commanded to kill even their enemie's women and children. Yes, this was made possible by their hatred towards their enemies. They had to be zealous over God's commandments. Would they be able to kill their enemies had God commanded them "to love them"? Not at all! This is logical, but not sure how this fits if God is the same yesterday, today, and tomorrow. There is a time and season for all things..:-)

Now when God says He hardens whom He hardens, He indicates His sovereignty over those who reject His precious gift. He proves that He is God and they, the stubborn-minded, are helpless useless nobodys in the hands of the Almighty.

The context of scripture doesn't say anything to the extent they are hardened because of something they did, but because he is the potter and that was his purpose. Rom 9:20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?

For it is by freely accepting His intervention that I can fully submit myself to His will. For I rather freely accept than forcedly accept God. And I guess this is where our differences lie. By this I say that either forced or freewill, still God's intervention is necessary.

Yes, this is where the differences lie. I have no problem with how you define Free Will as simply a voluntary act, but where i disagree is the ability to do so before being saved. You stated about freely accepting his intervention, but this doesn't make a lot of since to me. A man can't accept God unless God intervenes first, so that wouldn't be possible. Intervention has to of already taken place before we could yeild to his calling. He would have had to of already worked a work in us to know the hope of his calling.

I don't know who defined freewill to be free of God's intervention. I never did.

Philosophy. "the doctrine that the conduct of human beings expresses personal choice and is not simply determined by physical or divine forces."

"The power of making free choices that are unconstrained by external circumstances or by an agency such as fate or divine will. "

As we both know, these definitions are not biblical of God's will in our lives. Free Will alone implies a will which is free of its own power to make decisions and carry out that which it wills. While that may be true of our worldly choices, that is not the case with our spiritual lives. It is God's will which will inevitably be done.

No one, either a freewill or a forced will believer, can boast except in the Lord. Of course an unsaved person is a slave of sin because the scale of darkness is blinding his eyes of God's righteousness. Unless the Spirit of God removes the scale, he will remain blind and in his sin. Thus he will never be in the position to know God's will for he only could know and follow his own will.
Amen, only God can do these things. Since scripture teaches that God has only chosen some to recieve an heritance and be sealed by his promise and since we do not know who will be of that multitude, we can only pray that God reveal to them what he has revealed to us. The result is, His will shall be done!

As always, it is great discussing the bible with you. I pray God watches over you and yours!

God Bless You!

[pop james]

your point is well taken.....I misinterpreted what your point was...on second reading, I owe you an apology.........Sorry.........
My response was sharp becuase so many use that word "allow" in order to express giving GOD permission etc....which, of course, is foolish for one could never give GOD permission to do anything...........pop

[germanJoy]

your point is well taken.....I misinterpreted what your point was...on second reading, I owe you an apology.........Sorry.........
My response was sharp becuase so many use that word "allow" in order to express giving GOD permission etc....which, of course, is foolish for one could never give GOD permission to do anything...........pop
Apologies humbly accepted, pop.... of course, no one is in the position to give God permission, that would be foolish...He is God, He needs no permission from anyone if He wants to do anything since He is the Potter and we are just the clay totally dependent in His hands. :)

Bless you!
germanJoy

[godslove]

hi pop, did you ever get a answer from bruces?...God bless

[OneJoe]

I had hoped to add to this is in regards to Romans 1:8. There are several other verses such as this, but this one will be sufficient.

Rom 1:8 First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all, that your faith is spoken of throughout the whole world.

In this verse, world is used. As pop has already shown quite well, the same Greek word is used. Many people view John 3:16 as meaning the whole world and every person of it. But as Rom 1:8 shows, "world" does not always mean the way it sounds. In this verse, Paul is speaking to believers about their faith. He said their faith was spoken of throughout the "whole world". Was it? Did Paul speak of their faith through out the whole world as many people see it? Or perhaps Paul was meaning something different by the prase "whole world"? Paul certainly didn't reach the whole world as many see it today, but perhaps he did speak of their faith to all believers at that time. Keeping in mind that the bride of Christ was not that large and Paul could have spoken of their faith to all the churches or believers then. He could have proclaimed their faith through out the entire bride of Christ. It seems that man's common view of "world" is not always logical.

Just a thought..;)

[pop james]

thought that some newer folks might need to read this.....Pop

[pop james]

once again...this subject needs to be reviewed

[pop james]

once again this post needs to be brought forth...pop