Simply 2nd Peter 3:9

[pop james]

This wonderful verse of scripture is so misquoted. Recently on this chat board it has been used in order to convince others that it bares proof that GOD is not willing for any(all men without exception)) to perish. In order to rightly divide this verse we must investigate the complete third chapter of the book. I offer a briefe explanation in hope that you the reader will study the subject deeper on your own.

I will declare at the very first that the apostle was speaking to and about BELIEVERS.....not non-believers. We find in the chapter that scoffers raise a question as to the delay of the second coming. Was GOD late regarding HIS promise, not able to bring it to pass?

Peter answers that there is a group that is the object of GODs forbearance and GOD is not willing those certain ones should perish but that all come to repentence.

The word "any" is an indefinite pronoun in the greek translated as any or one or a certain one, it is NOT in a singular form. It means certain ones.

The word "all" stands in relation to the words "certain ones". "All" is qualified by the term certain ones.

GOD is not willing that certain ones should perish.

The term "us" (you, in the greek) does not mean all mankind. It speaks of a specific group.

The "any" must refer to those whom the LORD has chosen and will call to complete the redeemed ie: us, the believer.

The whole passage is about GODs destroying the wicked. HIS paitence is not so HE can save all of them(all men without exception), but, so HE can receive ALL who are HIS own.

To those who see and understand the points made and glorify GOD for it I say "AMEN"....for those who refuse to admit that the "US" in this passage is directed to believers not unbelievers/All men , I offer this verse found at the very beginning of the book......."Simon Peter, a bondservant and apostle of JESUS CHRIST, To those who have obtained like precious faith with us by the righteousness of our GOD and SAVIOUR JESUS CHRIST"...2nd peter 1 :1...................with regards............Pop

[OneJoe]

Hi Pop, I agree with your view that 2 Peter is not refering to all mankind. We also see another description of the same sort in Mathew which is speaking of God's children.

Mat 18:12 How think ye? if a man have a hundred sheep, and one of them be gone astray, doth he not leave the ninety and nine, and goeth into the mountains, and seeketh that which is gone astray?
Mat 18:13 And if so be that he find it, verily I say unto you, he rejoiceth more of that sheep, than of the ninety and nine which went not astray.
Mat 18:14 Even so it is not the will of your Father which is in heaven, that one of these little ones should perish.

God Bless, Pop!

[godslove]

thanks pop for the exhortation, i'm glad that you brought it out here. it was getting very difficult to find the posts in that other thread.

yes it is to usward, since peter included himself, he must be talking about the group he belongs to. verse 8 shows what group he is talking about.
(beloved).
verses 3,4,5,6,7 talks about the unbelivers and thier natural actions and the results of those actions....God bless

[allthingspure]

This wonderful verse of scripture is so misquoted

The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentence.

I believe this verse should be quoted as it is written :)
To try to add to it would be a misquote. God is not the author of confusion, had He ment >> GOD is not willing that certain ones should perish. Then He would have said just that.

Romans chapter 1 Paul speaking of ungodly men, who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.
Paul continues on in chapter 2 verse 1 speaking to those who judge others yet do the same.
Verse 2 >Paul speaking of believers >>>> But we are sure that the judgment of God is according to truth against them which commit such things.
Verse 3 > again Paul speaking to those who judge others who do the same. Verse 4 > Paul continueing on speaking to unbelievers who judge >> Or despisest thou the riches of His goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee (the ungodly) to repentance?
I believe it is safe to quote the scriptures just as they are written, without adding anything to them:)
For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotton Son that whosoever believeth in His should not perish, but have everlasting life.
If you break this down word for word you will find that it means exactly what is says.:) For God so loved 'the world' << its inhabitance>>
I think maybe we should accept Gods word for what is says.

allthingspure

[pop james]

Your response....."If GOD had meant that He is not willing that certain ones should have perished He would have said so.......My response...."HE DID"

Also speaking of adding to......those scriptures you quote in romans are ABOUT the lost certainly not addressed to the lost....the book of Romans was written to "All in Rome , beloved of GOD,called to be saints" rom 1:7..........regards ......Pop

[DanV aka FreetoloveGod]

The Apostle Peter used the word "Lord" constantly when referring to Jesus. Peter reminded the believers of Christ's Transfiguration - 2 Peter 1:16-18, of which he himself had been an eyewitness - Mark 9:2. Even as he faced his own death, Peter anticipated the time when Jesus will return in glory. "The day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night," so be ready because "we, according to His promise, look for new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells - 2 Peter 3:10, 14.

In the meantime, He waits, for He is "not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance" - 2 Peter 3:9. As you're awaiting Christ's return, follow Peter's advice to "grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ - 2 Peter 3:18.

Then, whether He comes to you or you go to Him in death, you'll be ready.

God Bless.

[hisredeemed]

I have to wonder what the unsaved person who has to hear that a merciful, loving God has designed some people specifically to go to Hell feels when they hear this.........:cf

This grieves me to no end......

[pop james]

It is hard to think of, but..............."HE has mercy on whom HE will have mercy, and whom HE will HE hardens(makes stubborn). You will say then to me, Why does HE yet find fault? For who has resisted HIS will? Nay but, O man, who are you that replies(answers) against GOD? Shall the thing formed say to HIM that formed it, Why have you made me thus? Has not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel to honor, and another to dishonor? What if GOD, willing to show HIS wrath, and to make HIS power known, endured with much long suffering the vessels of wrath(the non-elect) fitted to destruction: And that HE might make known the riches of HIS glory on the vessels of mercy, which HE had before prepared to glory (the saved)....rom 9:18-23.............regards ...Pop

[DanV aka FreetoloveGod]

I have to wonder what the unsaved person who has to hear that a merciful, loving God has designed some people specifically to go to Hell feels when they hear this.........:cf

This grieves me to no end......

One of the most powerful stimulants to good and deterrents from evil in this life is a profound conviction as to the reality of the future life, and that our estate there will depend on our behavior here. A merciful, loving God designs no one to Hell.

Jesus taught often about the hope of heaven and the fear of hell. He spoke of the unhappy fate of the lost as well as the blessedness of the redeemed, setting them over against each other.

Run through the passages in Matthew, Mark, Luke, John and note how often the words "heaven," "hell," "eternal life" occur.

Matthew chapter 5, 6, 7, 10, 13, 18, 22, 23, 25

Mark chapter 9

Luke chapter 12, 16,

John chapter 3, 5, 6, 17

God Bless.

[godslove]

i would think that love is the most powerful way....God bless

1Co 13:1 Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.
2 And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing.
3 And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, and have not charity, it profiteth me nothing.
4 ¶ Charity suffereth long, and is kind; charity envieth not; charity vaunteth not itself, is not puffed up,
5 Doth not behave itself unseemly, seeketh not her own, is not easily provoked, thinketh no evil;
6 Rejoiceth not in iniquity, but rejoiceth in the truth;
7 Beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things.
8 ¶ Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.
9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.
10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.
11 When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.
12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.
13 And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.

Ro 13:9 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

1Jo 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

[OneJoe]

Why does this grieve you? Was it God who tempted man to sin? Did God force man to sin? Why then should we worry about what a person thinks? All that matters is what God's word says and it is clear some are chosen, some are not!

[germanJoy]

I agree with you, popjames, that 2 Peter 3:9 was referring to the believers and not necessarily to all men.

The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentence.

to us-ward connotes "to us, the believers".

Recently on this chat board it has been used in order to convince others that it bares proof that GOD is not willing for any(all men without exception)) to perish.

Although 2 Pet. 3:9 does not apply to God's desire for all to be saved, 1 Timothy 2:4 does.

First of all, then, I urge that entreaties and prayers, petitions and thanksgivings, be made on behalf of all men, for kings and all who are in authority, in order that we may lead a tranquil and quiet life in all godliness and dignity. This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. 1 Tim. 2:1-4

These verses clearly tells us that God desires all men including kings and those under authority to receive salvation. How come not all get saved which implies that God's desires are not fulfilled? This is the time when the theory of freewill enters into the picture. :-)

God bless.

germanJoy

[DanV aka FreetoloveGod]

I agree with you, popjames, that 2 Peter 3:9 was referring to the believers and not necessarily to all men.

The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentence.

to us-ward connotes "to us, the believers".



Although 2 Pet. 3:9 does not apply to God's desire for all to be saved, 1 Timothy 2:4 does.

First of all, then, I urge that entreaties and prayers, petitions and thanksgivings, be made on behalf of all men, for kings and all who are in authority, in order that we may lead a tranquil and quiet life in all godliness and dignity. This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. 1 Tim. 2:1-4

These verses clearly tells us that God desires all men including kings and those under authority to receive salvation. How come not all get saved which implies that God's desires are not fulfilled? This is the time when the theory of freewill enters into the picture. :-)

God bless.

germanJoy


2 Peter 3:9 is very clear in referring to Sin and the Child of God: "Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God."

1 Timothy 2: verse 1, talks about praying for all men, and in verse 2, tells us why, "that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and reverence."

In verse 3 it says, "For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, and in verse 4 it says, "who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth."

God has always "desired" all men to be saved, but because "all men" are not saved does not mean God's desires are not fulfilled.

We have to ask the question, why aren't all men saved? The simpliest answer I can give, and there are many, is John 3:16-17.

God Bless.

[godslove]

you should add the rest of the thought that He was bringing forth...God bless

Joh 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

[Brucea]

Once again flawed analysis. G5100 you have only partly said what it means. In truth it can mean any as is and not just certain. What you with bias left out it can also mean who so ever. Hmm-mm. Why would you leave it out. Yes, it does not fit into your rose colored veiw. If we are going to throw around the Greek definition we should at least include the fulness of the definition. Which make your whole theory fall apart.

Peter warned that there would be those who would twist grace and it would bring destruction.

Everytime I have brought a passage to light, those who want to affirm your possion say it does not mean what it say, or they do not deal with it at all.
This is truly a scary way to build doctrine.

[OneJoe]

Joh 17:9 I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.

Why was Christ not praying for the world if it was in fact all men he came to save? I would love to see a biblical answer to this question. I hear people say we should love everyone, but I see scriptures against such a teaching. I see people say God loves everyone, and also see scriptures teaching against this droctrine. You believe he desires all men to be saved, but according to all the scriptures, it is referring to the believers. This verse I have posted shows Christ was not praying for the world, for he knew it was not the whole world which he came to save but those given him by his Father. If Christ desired all men to be saved, he would pray that desire to his Father; however, that is not what we see in scripture.

[OneJoe]

One word, "whosoever" hardly changes Pop's view for it is fact that each time the bible says whosoever, we know these people can still only come when called by the Father. You adding that word doesn't change God's will. Those (whosoever) he isn't willing perish are those he calls and saves. An all powerful God who will work out that which he wills, is a God who fulfills his desire to save those he so chooses. God has only chosen some and according to 2 Peter 3:9 and Mathew 18:14, he is not willing these people perish.

[pop james]

good for you Joy.........I was wondering when this verse would be brought up and believe me it does require some serious thought......first of all when you compare this scripture with scripture that allows that GOD has a chosen people and JESUS CHRIST died for those on the shameful cross and those only for the fulfillment of HIS sovereign will, such as john 17:6, You must look to a different meaning.
The word "desires" in the 1tim verse you quote is (in the greek) altogether different from GODs will or decrees.(sovereign purpose). There is a difference between GODs desire and HIS divine purpose. Certainly GOD does not desire for men to sin etc.
The "all men" in this verse of course reflects kings and those in authority and means NOT all men without exception but all kinds of men..........regards Pop

[germanJoy]

1 Timothy 2: verse 1, talks about praying for all men, and in verse 2, tells us why, "that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and reverence."

In verse 3 it says, "For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, and in verse 4 it says, "who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth."

Right, DanV, you just forgot one thing: 1 Tim. 2:1 indeed talks about praying for all men specifically praying for the salvation of all men. We need to pray for God's desires, plans or will, don't we? :-)

God has always "desired" all men to be saved, but because "all men" are not saved does not mean God's desires are not fulfilled.

We have to ask the question, why aren't all men saved? The simpliest answer I can give, and there are many, is John 3:16-17.

Good answer! God so loved the world but not all the world loved God. :cf

God Bless you, too.

[germanJoy]

good for you Joy.........I was wondering when this verse would be brought up and believe me it does require some serious thought......first of all when you compare this scripture with scripture that allows that GOD has a chosen people and JESUS CHRIST died for those on the shameful cross and those only for the fulfillment of HIS sovereign will, such as john 17:6, You must look to a different meaning.
It is a big mistake for christians to look for a different meaning to compare one scripture with another... 2 Peter 1:20 calls it "one's own interpretation". Looking at the whole Scripture is like putting 1000 pieces of puzzle together. One needs to be patient, look at every piece carefully and diligently put them altogether piece by piece, one by one, slowly but surely. The biggest mistake a christian can ever commit is to find 100 pieces which he assesses to be not part of the puzzle as it looks entirely different, throws them away, builds his own 100 pieces and thinks he successfully could form the puzzle. Just imagine how such puzzle looks afterwards!

The word "desires" in the 1tim verse you quote is (in the greek) altogether different from GODs will or decrees.(sovereign purpose). There is a difference between GODs desire and HIS divine purpose. Certainly GOD does not desire for men to sin etc.

Are you saying here that it is God's desire for all men to be saved but it is not His will or His divine purpose that all men be saved?


The "all men" in this verse of course reflects kings and those in authority and means NOT all men without exception but all kinds of men.
First of all, then, I urge that entreaties and prayers, petitions and thanksgivings, be made on behalf of all men, for kings and all who are in authority, in order that we may lead a tranquil and quiet life in all godliness and dignity. This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. 1 Tim. 2:1-4

"All men" here, pops, literally means "all". If it were meant only for kings and those in authority (govt.) then there could have been a "who are" between "all men" and "for kings". The kings and govt., good or evil, here are the inclusion of the "all men" in this verse.

blessings,
germanJoy

[germanJoy]

Joh 17:9 I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.

Why was Christ not praying for the world if it was in fact all men he came to save? I would love to see a biblical answer to this question. I hear people say we should love everyone, but I see scriptures against such a teaching. I see people say God loves everyone, and also see scriptures teaching against this droctrine. You believe he desires all men to be saved, but according to all the scriptures, it is referring to the believers. This verse I have posted shows Christ was not praying for the world, for he knew it was not the whole world which he came to save but those given him by his Father. If Christ desired all men to be saved, he would pray that desire to his Father; however, that is not what we see in scripture.
In this prayer verse, Christ was singling-out His disciples for the purpose of prioritizing them and not for the purpose of excluding or condemning the world. In fact, at the end of His prayer (the heart of His prayer is the unity of the believers), He had expressed His concern and willingness for the world to believe and know that He is the sent One.

that they may all be one; even as Thou, Father, art in Me, and I in Thee; that they also may be in Us; that the world may believe that Thou didst send Me.....I in them and Thou in Me, that they may be perfected in unity, that the world may know that Thou didst send Me, and didst love them, even as Thou didst love Me. John 17:21-23

Here Christ clearly expressed His desire for the world to believe and know Him. :-)

[OneJoe]

Hi Germanjoy, this is yet another example of the word "world" being viewed differently. Here in the example you have given, some could argue that Christ's desire was for the whole world (every inhabitant) to believe; although, this would conflict with the fact his own Father blinds some to the Gospel. Furthermore, someone could also say that his desire was only for the elect, thus viewing this in a narrower sense of its inhabitants. I completely agree that Christ was singling out these people, but not just his disciples. Christ said "I pray for them, I pray not for the world". It is true Christ was speaking of his disciples here although we also see in verse twenty he is including "them" which will also believe on the word. Joh 17:20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;....Here Christ is very specific that his prayer is for the believers or those who will believe. Christ is praying to his Father in regard to his disire for these people. Though these scriptures use the word "world", it would not be in the context to say He is speaking of every inhabitant since Christ is all too clear his prayer is in a narrower sense, not a universal sense. Thus this view would also apply to John 3:16...or the "whosoever" would believe which is a narrower sense.

Furthermore, to say John 3:16 was meaning every inhabitant would conflict with 1 John 2:15 when it states we are not to love the world. 1Jo 2:15 Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.

The same Greek word (Kosmos) is used both in John 3:16 and 1 John 2:15. Therefore, if God loved the world, every person, it would appear we are being told not to love anyone. However, if we were viewing the world's inhabitants in a narrower sense, then we would understand we love the elect as God does and gave his son for, but we do not love those who oppose God or are his enemies nor do we love the sin of this world as said in 1 John 2:15 (which also relates to Psa 139:21). I realize some say we are to love our enemies, but as I have said before, our enemies are not always God's enemies. An enemy of mine is merely an adversary or someone who opposes me or my views, though they may not necessarily oppose God. These are just my thoughts on this issue. I always view conflict in scripture when I listen to someone say God loves everyone or desires every person on earth to be saved. I realize anyone can take one or two scriptures to fit their view, but they must all come to the same conclusion or we have to start over again. Therefore, to say God desires something, we must first understand his sovereign will and power to fulfill that which he wills.

God Bless you!

[DanV aka FreetoloveGod]

To summarize: we are to love everyone, but we don't have to like what they do.

God Bless.

[allthingspure]

Your response....."If GOD had meant that He is not willing that certain ones should have perished He would have said so.......My response...."HE DID"

Also speaking of adding to......those scriptures you quote in romans are ABOUT the lost certainly not addressed to the lost....the book of Romans was written to "All in Rome , beloved of GOD,called to be saints" rom 1:7..........regards ......Pop


Actually this is what He ment:)
The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentence.
2 Peter 3:9


This verse does not read...The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as men count slackness; but is longsuffering to only believers, not willing that certain ones should perish, but that certain ones should come to repentance.

Who are the ones that would perish if they did not come to repentance?
The unbelievers, no doubt.

Now I suppose if we did hold to the fact that he ment 'certain ones' then these 'certains ones' were not believers, because if they had been believers then why come again to repentance? Seeing that the believers are believers because they have already repented.

The word us-ward can also be used as 'both' which would be both believers and unbelievers. So I suppose with so many different def. we could go in many different directions. But it's best to take it as it is written.:)

Bless you

allthingspure

[pop james]

Respectfully and regretfully I will respond to your confusion this last time (dont hold me to that lol) Friend..........you are determined to ignore the rest of the chapter as layed out in the original post...who is being addressed and how the us-ward and all reflect those being addressed. This is the regretfull part...The respectfully part is to say to you, that you may/are, in my humble opinion, be walking on dangerous ground. That being taking the word of GOD "as it is written".....To accurately divide this wonderful gift of GODs word, We must look to the original and thats what I will do at this time.
This is how the verse reads in the greek translation....by the way I quote from the interlinear bible greek/english volume 4 by green. According to greek scholars, this interpretation is much more accurate than the K.J...NKJ etc.
"The Lord is not slow as to the promise as some deem slowness, but, is long-suffering toward us, not having purposed any of us to perish, but all of us to come to repentence 2pet er 3:9....Now...look at verse 13....but according to His promise, "WE" look for new heavens and a new earth, in which righteousness dwells..vs 13.....The "WE" here without any doubt reflects on "those who are equally precious" in verse one of chapter one and on the "ALL" and "US" in verse 9...............Also, a new heaven and a new earth in which righteousness dwells is a Promise that ONLY GODs people can claim.......regards....Pop

[OneJoe]

Wow DanV, i'm not sure where you gathered that from the bible because that certainly isn't what I was saying. Perhaps this is something you heard in church? If were told to love everyone, why then do we see in the bible that it is right to hate those who hate God? Do not we hate them with a perfect hatred? An enemy is an adversary or someone who opposes you. You can oppose me and my views DanV and I'm still told to love my enemies; however, I am not told to love those who oppose God and rise up against him. I am not told to love an anti-Christ.

Psa 139:21 Do not I hate them, O LORD, that hate thee? and am not I grieved with those that rise up against thee?
Psa 139:22 I hate them with perfect hatred: I count them mine enemies.
Psa 139:23 Search me, O God, and know my heart: try me, and know my thoughts:
Psa 139:24 And see if there be any wicked way in me, and lead me in the way everlasting.

[DanV aka FreetoloveGod]

Wow DanV, i'm not sure where you gathered that from the bible because that certainly isn't what I was saying. Perhaps this is something you heard in church? If were told to love everyone, why then do we see in the bible that it is right to hate those who hate God? Do not we hate them with a perfect hatred? An enemy is an adversary or someone who opposes you. You can oppose me and my views DanV and I'm still told to love my enemies; however, I am not told to love those who oppose God and rise up against him. I am not told to love an anti-Christ.

Psa 139:21 Do not I hate them, O LORD, that hate thee? and am not I grieved with those that rise up against thee?
Psa 139:22 I hate them with perfect hatred: I count them mine enemies.
Psa 139:23 Search me, O God, and know my heart: try me, and know my thoughts:
Psa 139:24 And see if there be any wicked way in me, and lead me in the way everlasting.


One can learn very profound things in a church service where Christ is taught and praised. However, one does not need to attend a church building and have anyone tell him of the love of God and the teachings of Christ; just read the Gospels.

If one looks closely at those passages in Psalms 139, they will quickly realized that they are referring to God's Universal Presence and Infinite Knowledge. He knows our Every Thought, Word, Act, Nothing Hid from Him. Closing passage is one of the most needed Prayers in the whole Bible: "Search me, O God, and know my heart; Try me, and know my anxieties; And see if there is any wicked ways in me, And lead me in the way everlasting."

Jesus doesn't say, that I can locate anywhere in the Bible, that we should hate those who hate God, however, read what he says about enemies, in general:

"You have heard that it was said, 'You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy,' "But I say to you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute you." [it says nothing about liking what they do; therefore, we must love our enemies, but don't have to like what they do.]

This requires further clarification. You have to love those who curse you, but you don't have to like them cursing you. You have to love those who hate you, but you certainly don't like them hating you. You have to pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute, but you definitely don't cherish them spitefully using and persecuting you. In turn, You have to love those who hate God, because basically they are the same enemies aforementioned, but you certainly don't like them hating God.

Again, in conclusion: You have to love your enemies, which are one and the same who hate God, however, you do not have to "like" their "cursings" "hatefulness" "spitefulness and persecutions," and hatred of God; that is all I'm saying. No, I do not have a Scripture for the "like" part. That is my own, personal, opinion.

God Bless.

[OneJoe]

Ahh...so your saying we should love everyone including an anti-Christ? Does that mean you love Satan as well? If you love Satan, how then can you love God? You can only serve one master DanV. The other will be hated. No where in the bible are we told to love God's enemies. The bible says we are to love our enemies.

Mat 6:24 No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.

[DanV aka FreetoloveGod]

Ahh...so your saying we should love everyone including an anti-Christ? Does that mean you love Satan as well? If you love Satan, how then can you love God? You can only serve one master DanV. The other will be hated. No where in the bible are we told to love God's enemies. The bible says we are to love our enemies.

Mat 6:24 No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.

I'm not saying anything, the Scriptures are speaking, in the person of the Lord Jesus Christ.

You must have ran pass this quickly. So let me repost it:

You have to love your enemies, which are one and the same who hate God, however, you do not have to "like" their "cursings" "hatefulness" "spitefulness and persecutions," and hatred of God; that is all I'm saying. No, I do not have a Scripture for the "like" part. That is my own, personal, opinion.

That should answer the question concerning the first part of your post.

Concerning the second part on "God and mammon." If you look at what that passage is saying, it will be obvious that Jesus is saying "You Cannot Serve God and Riches." If you are serving Money, then it becomes your Master. So, one has to decide whom they will serve, God [obvious answer] or Money [wrong answer]. Besides, Money being the wrong answer, there is another passage which says, 'money is the Root of all evil."

God Bless.

[DanV aka FreetoloveGod]

I'm not saying anything, the Scriptures are speaking, in the person of the Lord Jesus Christ.

You must have ran pass this quickly. So let me repost it:

You have to love your enemies, which are one and the same who hate God, however, you do not have to "like" their "cursings" "hatefulness" "spitefulness and persecutions," and hatred of God; that is all I'm saying. No, I do not have a Scripture for the "like" part. That is my own, personal, opinion.

That should answer the question concerning the first part of your post.

Concerning the second part on "God and mammon." If you look at what that passage is saying, it will be obvious that Jesus is saying "You Cannot Serve God and Riches." If you are serving Money, then it becomes your Master. So, one has to decide whom they will serve, God [obvious answer] or Money [wrong answer]. Besides, Money being the wrong answer, there is another passage which says, 'money is the Root of all evil."

God Bless.

Before I get misunderstood. Jesus said, "Love your enemies" etc.

God Bless

[godslove]

I still think he is talking about loving them is in the sense of doing good to them.
We are to turn the other cheek, (as far as reproach) go with them the extra mile, give to them, the same as God does. Here are some Scriptures for consideration.
This is an interesting study, but I don’t think we can ever (this side of heaven) understand this completely…God bless

God reveals his mercy by His enduring with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath..
Ro 9:22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

We take reproach.
2Co 11:19 For ye suffer fools gladly, seeing ye yourselves are wise.
20 For ye suffer, if a man bring you into bondage, if a man devour you, if a man take of you, if a man exalt himself, if a man smite you on the face.
21 I speak as concerning reproach, as though we had been weak. Howbeit whereinsoever any is bold, (I speak foolishly,) I am bold also.

They persecute us.
Ga 4:29 But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.

They receive good now, tormented later.
Lu 16:25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.

It is interesting that mankind wanted the knowledge of good and evil, we now know it first hand..
Ge 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge <01847> of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die..
Ge 3:6 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.

The verses in question. It seems to me this kind of love is an action kind of love, not about words and some gooey feeling. This love shows that we are children of God. We don’t persecute our enemies. We do what is right and just. We leave their judgment to the rightful judge.
Mt 5:38 Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth:
39 But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.
40 And if any man will sue thee at the law, and take away thy coat, let him have thy cloke also.
41 And whosoever shall compel thee to go a mile, go with him twain.
42 Give to him that asketh thee, and from him that would borrow of thee turn not thou away.
43 ¶ Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy.
44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.
46 For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same?
47 And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so?
48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

[OneJoe]

DanV, once again, no I am not told to love the enemies of God. That is exactly why it states in Psalms about hating those who hate God. The bible says "Love your enemies". The bible does not say my enemies are God's enemies. As I said before, an enemy is someone who opposes you or your view. I oppose your view DanV, but I am not opposed to God nor am I his adversary. I believe we are having this discussion because you attempted to "summarize" my post in a way contradictive to my own views. You and I will not agree on this subject until you can show me scipture which states I am to love those who oppose God, such as an anti-Christ. By the way, you didn't answer my question of whether you love Satan also. After all, you do believe you should love everyone right?

Ecc 3:1 To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under the heaven:
Ecc 3:8 A time to love, and a time to hate; a time of war, and a time of peace.


Ecc 3:1 To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under the heaven:
Ecc 3:8 A time to love, and a time to hate; a time of war, and a time of peace.

[DanV aka FreetoloveGod]

DanV, once again, no I am not told to love the enemies of God. That is exactly why it states in Psalms about hating those who hate God. The bible says "Love your enemies". The bible does not say my enemies are God's enemies. As I said before, an enemy is someone who opposes you or your view. I oppose your view DanV, but I am not opposed to God nor am I his adversary. I believe we are having this discussion because you attempted to "summarize" my post in a way contradictive to my own views. You and I will not agree on this subject until you can show me scipture which states I am to love those who oppose God, such as an anti-Christ. By the way, you didn't answer my question of whether you love Satan also. After all, you do believe you should love everyone right?

Ecc 3:1 To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under the heaven:
Ecc 3:8 A time to love, and a time to hate; a time of war, and a time of peace.


Ecc 3:1 To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under the heaven:
Ecc 3:8 A time to love, and a time to hate; a time of war, and a time of peace.

Just exactly how does one go around hating those who hate God??

Question: Who are the enemy?
Answer: Those who curse you, hate you, spitefully use you, and persecute you.
Question: Do we hate them who curse, use, and persecute us?
Answer: No, we bless them, do good to them, and pray for them. I did not say that, Jesus did!

Does God love Satan? Yes, with all His being. Satan is still a creation of God, and no matter how defiled and hopelessly deformed he makes himself, God will ALWAYS love him.

God says to love your enemy as yourself, correct? Is Satan our enemy? In my opinion, he's our worst enemy... so wouldn't we have to love him even more? So, I would say that yes, we should love Satan. But for me to do that, I am saying that we are to love sin. So that's unBiblical. So the question can have a no answer.

Although God says we are to love our enemies, he was more directly speaking about our enemies here on earth, i.e., people who hate us, people who mock us, people who curse us… those kinds of people.

Satan, being the complete opposite of God and the actual father of sin itself, is not someone we should have anything to do with, in any sense. Satan is also called "the" enemy. Not "an" enemy.

God told us to 'love our neighbors as ourselves' Satan is NOT human, he's a fallen angel, so we don't have to love him. Satan is NOT God's equal, and he WILL be destroyed, which he is fully aware of. Thats why he's doing his best to keep us from God's love.

Are we to hate those who hate God? In a previous post I gave my description of what is being said in those Psalms.

God Bless.

[OneJoe]

Just exactly how does one go around hating those who hate God??

Question: Who are the enemy?
Answer: Those who curse you, hate you, spitefully use you, and persecute you.
Question: Do we hate them who curse, use, and persecute us?
Answer: No, we bless them, do good to them, and pray for them. I did not say that, Jesus did!

Here you are speaking of our enemies. Indeed we are told to love them.

Does God love Satan? Yes, with all His being. Satan is still a creation of God, and no matter how defiled and hopelessly deformed he makes himself, God will ALWAYS love him.

Okay, you are the one who said God does love Satan. Now would you please provide me with scripture that proves this. Otherwise, since the bible says God hates all workers of iniquity(Psa 5:5) and the devil is the father of it, it would appear he does not.

God says to love your enemy as yourself, correct? Is Satan our enemy? In my opinion, he's our worst enemy... so wouldn't we have to love him even more? So, I would say that yes, we should love Satan. But for me to do that, I am saying that we are to love sin. So that's unBiblical. So the question can have a no answer. Ahh, so your unsure? Well as for me, I do not love Satan for he is God's enemy. I have only one God, Lord, Savior....Jesus Christ!

Satan, being the complete opposite of God and the actual father of sin itself, is not someone we should have anything to do with, in any sense. Satan is also called "the" enemy. Not "an" enemy.

This is an interesting way you put this. Satan is indeed "the" enemy as are his followers who rise up against God and all that is Holy and righteous.

God told us to 'love our neighbors as ourselves' Satan is NOT human, he's a fallen angel, so we don't have to love him. Satan is NOT God's equal, and he WILL be destroyed, which he is fully aware of. Thats why he's doing his best to keep us from God's love. Whether Satan is in physical form or spiritual form, it does not change the fact that we do not love him nor serve him. Nor should we love those who follow him and rise up against God. For he, and all that follow him, will be destroyed.

Are we to hate those who hate God? In a previous post I gave my description of what is being said in those Psalms.

Yes, this is the description you gave....

****If one looks closely at those passages in Psalms 139, they will quickly realized that they are referring to God's Universal Presence and Infinite Knowledge. He knows our Every Thought, Word, Act, Nothing Hid from Him. Closing passage is one of the most needed Prayers in the whole Bible: "Search me, O God, and know my heart; Try me, and know my anxieties; And see if there is any wicked ways in me, And lead me in the way everlasting."****


This does not address the issue of hating those who rise up against God. We hate those who hate God, but we hate them with a perfect hatred, not a selfish hatred known all too well by man. These verses do not speak anything about "infinite knowledge or universal presence". Perhaps your referring to some verses prior to these? We already know God can see everything. He can search our hearts. These verses are very literal and very clear. You can post a short paragraph about your opinion which skips the whole point and sounds good to those with itching ears, but I am well aware of what is being said in these verses. I pray when you read these scriptures, you will take them as they are and not try to fit them into a man made doctrine. For as long as you try to teach your doctrine, these verses will be right there to show correction. The only thing the world can do is try to cover them up and not use them as they have most of the bible. Better yet DanV, just start a New Testament church only and exclude the entire Old Testament as many have already done. :-)

[OneJoe]

One of the most powerful stimulants to good and deterrents from evil in this life is a profound conviction as to the reality of the future life, and that our estate there will depend on our behavior here. A merciful, loving God designs no one to Hell.

"One of the most powerful stimulants...." Sounds cute DanV, but doesn't prove your next statement. :-) Anyhow, according to the bible your wrong about God because the God of the bible does indeed make some vessels of dishonor.



Isa 64:8 But now, O LORD, thou art our father; we are the clay, and thou our potter; and we all are the work of thy hand.

Rom 9:20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
Rom 9:21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honor, and another unto dishonor?
Rom 9:22 What if God, willing to show his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
Rom 9:23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

[DanV aka FreetoloveGod]

Scripture? How about this: "God is Love."

It seems like the main theme of this thread is whether or not we should hate those who hate God. The answer is simply God is Love and "if we love one another God abides in us, and His love has been perfected in us. ...God is Love, and he who abides in in love abides in God, and God in him." - 1 John 4.

As long as we are in Psalms, as it seem this entire thread is based on a passage there, let's look at Psalm 68 where it says, "Let God arise, Let His enemies be scattered; Let those who hate Him flee before Him."

Do you think God needs puny Man to go around hating in His Name?
If we are bent on believing we should Hate those who Hate God, look at Psalm 97, "You who love the Lord, hate evil. "Hate evil" not the poor misguided soul who hates God.

Also recommend reading Proverbs 1, starting at verse 22 and there one can find the outcome for those who "did not choose the fear of the Lord."

Maybe we also should look at Proverbs 6, starting at verse 16 and see seven things that the Lord "hates." There is no mention there that God says He hates those [unsaved souls] who hate Him.

Jesus, in John 7:7 talks about hate:

"The world cannot hate you, but it hates Me because I testify of it that its works are evil."

Again, I repeat, "how does one go about hating those who hate God?" Again, doesn't Jesus say, "love your enemies"? It would seem that those who hate God fall into the category of "your enemies" if you are the one who loves God.

Its not simply a matter of, "those who have opposing views are "your enemy." No, its those who hate, curse, and use you. And, it goes without saying that one who influences you to sin, is "the" enemy.

How are we to know who hates God and who doesn't? Do we ask them? Do we say, Do you love God? Or, do we just judge them without asking?

We don't have to search for, condemn, and then hate those who "hate God." God will "find all His enemies." "His right hand will find those who Hate Him."

I'll give you the last word, brother:-)

God Bless

[LadyVi]

Very well stated. Thank you, Dan V. :)

[OneJoe]

Scripture? How about this: "God is Love."

This is an all too common statement used by those who don't understand that God is not only love, but he is also a jealous God, sovereign God, one who does in fact hate all workers of iniquity.

It seems like the main theme of this thread is whether or not we should hate those who hate God. The answer is simply God is Love and "if we love one another God abides in us, and His love has been perfected in us. ...God is Love, and he who abides in in love abides in God, and God in him." - 1 John 4.

This is referring to loving our brethren DanV. It has nothing to do with loving those who hate God. Lets keep scripture in context shall we..:-)

As long as we are in Psalms, as it seem this entire thread is based on a passage there, let's look at Psalm 68 where it says, "Let God arise, Let His enemies be scattered; Let those who hate Him flee before Him."

Do you think God needs puny Man to go around hating in His Name?
If we are bent on believing we should Hate those who Hate God, look at Psalm 97, "You who love the Lord, hate evil. "Hate evil" not the poor misguided soul who hates God. That is a great scripture from Psalms; however, it still doesn't change the truth. Though it is a nice try on your part. Do I think God needs puny man to go around hating in his name? Well, has not God also used man to carry out his justice and kill before? Perhaps you should really think about that DanV. Your statement: "You who love the Lord, hate evil" also does not refute what I am saying. You can try and try DanV, but you will not succeed. The bible tells us to love our brethren, love our enemies, but it does not say to love God's enemies. Nor does it say God loves his enemies.

Also recommend reading Proverbs 1, starting at verse 22 and there one can find the outcome for those who "did not choose the fear of the Lord."

I am very familiar with the book of Proverbs. It was the first book which really peaked my interest in knowledge and the fear of the Lord. My favorite passage is: Pro 28:9 He that turneth away his ear from hearing the law, even his prayer shall be abomination. I can also say without a doubt that the passages in Proverbs your referring to have no bearing on this topic.

Maybe we also should look at Proverbs 6, starting at verse 16 and see seven things that the Lord "hates." There is no mention there that God says He hates those [unsaved souls] who hate Him.

Once again, this does not refute the fact that God hates all workers of iniquity, including Esau. It does not mention that we shouldn't hate those who hate God.

Jesus, in John 7:7 talks about hate:

"The world cannot hate you, but it hates Me because I testify of it that its works are evil."

"The world"....are you including every person in the world? If so, then we must be told not to love anyone when it says love not the world, right? 1Jo 2:15 Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him. The word "World" has the same Greek word (kosmos) being used in both passages. If God so loved the world (everyone), then are we told not to love anyone? Not likely! We are told to love our brethren, not those who are enemies of God and device mischief with every breath. The same applies with how God loves his elect but hates those who work iniquity.

Again, I repeat, "how does one go about hating those who hate God?" Again, doesn't Jesus say, "love your enemies"? It would seem that those who hate God fall into the category of "your enemies" if you are the one who loves God.

Our hatred is a righteous hatred DanV. We do not hate them because were envious of them. We hate them because they are working against the one true God who has the power both to kill the body and the soul. We know them by their fruits, judge them with righteous judgement, and our discernment tell us they are not of God. Of course, some make that a little easier to notice than wolves in sheeps clothing. The difference is I am not speaking of wordly selfish hatred. I am speaking of a complete and righteous hatred.

Its not simply a matter of, "those who have opposing views are "your enemy." No, its those who hate, curse, and use you. And, it goes without saying that one who influences you to sin, is "the" enemy.


DanV, i'm not sure how you connect someone who hates you and curses you with someone who is influencing you to sin. If you sin that easily, perhaps they don't hate you after all..:-) I disagree with your assumption though. It certainly can be that "simple". It only becomes difficult when man rejects what the bible says about God hating some and our hating some and trys to squirm around it.

How are we to know who hates God and who doesn't? Do we ask them? Do we say, Do you love God? Or, do we just judge them without asking?

Mat 7:20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

We don't have to search for, condemn, and then hate those who "hate God." God will "find all His enemies." "His right hand will find those who Hate Him."

Indeed God will have his vengeance. 1Co 6:2 Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters?

I'll give you the last word, brother

No please don't give me the last word. The only way to offer correction or discover something is to discuss it. You started to "summarize" my post and I am now replying to your posts to explain you have not refuted what I said before. I have no problem with discussing this with you. In fact, I love talking about subjects outside what most of the world would ever begin to discuss. I have no bitterness toward you whatsoever and I thank you for your replies. I understand your intentions are good.

God Bless!

[germanJoy]

Hi Germanjoy, this is yet another example of the word "world" being viewed differently. Here in the example you have given, some could argue that Christ's desire was for the whole world (every inhabitant) to believe; although, this would conflict with the fact his own Father blinds some to the Gospel.
Why could it be a conflict for Christ to desire all sinners to come to repentance while the Father hardens whom He hardens? Did Moses not do the same by praying to the Father to change His plans of destroying or cutting off the rebellious Israel?

Furthermore, to say John 3:16 was meaning every inhabitant would conflict with 1 John 2:15 when it states we are not to love the world. 1Jo 2:15 Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.

If the bible speaks of the "world" it means 4 different things in the English language (as far as I can remember);
1. the people, inhabitants, (God loving the world John 3:16; God judging the world)
2. the earth, kosmos, creation, kingdom (the physical world)
3. time, age (end of the world)
4. the things of the world, manifestations of the flesh (lust of the flesh, lust of the eyes and pride of life 1 John 2:16)

In your quoted example above, John 3:16 speaks about Nr. 1 while 1 John 2:15 speaks about Nr. 4.

Allow me please to reconstruct your views here. First you claimed that the "world" Christ was not praying for in John 17:9 refers to the "entire inhabitants of the world". You quoted this Scripture to prove that Christ was not praying for the world (whole world), to quote:

Joh 17:9 I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.

This verse I have posted shows Christ was not praying for the world, for he knew it was not the whole world which he came to save but those given him by his Father. If Christ desired all men to be saved, he would pray that desire to his Father; however, that is not what we see in scripture.


Next, you claimed that the "world" in John 17:20 as well as verses 21 to 23 refers to the "believers only; past, present and future in the world".

Furthermore, someone could also say that his desire was only for the elect, thus viewing this in a narrower sense of its inhabitants. I completely agree that Christ was singling out these people, but not just his disciples. Christ said "I pray for them, I pray not for the world". It is true Christ was speaking of his disciples here although we also see in verse twenty he is including "them" which will also believe on the word. Joh 17:20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;....Here Christ is very specific that his prayer is for the believers or those who will believe. Christ is praying to his Father in regard to his disire for these people. Though these scriptures use the word "world", it would not be in the context to say He is speaking of every inhabitant since Christ is all too clear his prayer is in a narrower sense, not a universal sense. Thus this view would also apply to John 3:16...or the "whosoever" would believe which is a narrower sense.
I find this quite "self-interpreted" because I don't see any Scripture where Christ considered or called any elect/believer to be the "world". If Christ speaks about the world as a "people", He always used the word "world". If He speaks about the believers or elect, He uses the word "sheep, disciples, etc.". But never was there a case where He used the word "world" to mean "the believers".

In His prayer in John 17:9, He prayed not for the "present world inhabitants" as He concentrated on His disciples. In the middle of His prayer, He prayed for those who (the future believers) will believe His Word. And then He prayed for the unity of the believers so that the "world inhabitants" will believe His Word.

I realize some say we are to love our enemies, but as I have said before, our enemies are not always God's enemies. An enemy of mine is merely an adversary or someone who opposes me or my views, though they may not necessarily oppose God.
If I understand this correctly, you have classified our enemies into two, namely: 1. enemies opposing God 2. enemies not opposing God
I need your clarification of the difference between the two.

Blessings be upon you too!

germanJoy

[OneJoe]

Why could it be a conflict for Christ to desire all sinners to come to repentance while the Father hardens whom He hardens? Did Moses not do the same by praying to the Father to change His plans of destroying or cutting off the rebellious Israel?

Christ's desire was that his Father's will be done in the world. It was never God's desire that all become saved. If that was God's will, we wouldn't be having this discussion.

I find this quite "self-interpreted" because I don't see any Scripture where Christ considered or called any elect/believer to be the "world". If Christ speaks about the world as a "people", He always used the word "world". If He speaks about the believers or elect, He uses the word "sheep, disciples, etc.". But never was there a case where He used the word "world" to mean "the believers".

You misunderstood what I was saying. When speaking of the world, it includes the worlds inhabitants in a wide or narrow sense. You believe it includes everyone, thus in a wide sense. I however do not view this in a wide sense. The whole point in bringing up John 3:16 and 1 John 2:15 is that the Greek word kosmos is one in the same which includes not only his creation but the inhabitants also. Kosmos is used in the New Testament referring to God's creation and its inhabitants, an age, etc. The context of John 3:16 is clear it is referring to the creation and its inhabitants. In 1 John 2:15, it is the same word which is being used, not another referring to an age. Except this scripture tells us not to love the world. To say this scripture is referring only to the wicked in the world would be leaving out the first part of the scripture. It says "Love not the world, niether the things that are in the world...". Here we see the world, and the things which are in the world are separated into two distinct categories. Obviously the things which are in the world is understood, however, what is meant by "world" is what we should ponder on. Surely God is not telling us to hate the very thing he gave his son for? God forbid! Is he telling us to hate his creation? Why then does he love it and tell us not to? If referring to all inhabitants, why then are we told not to love anyone? The only view which I see is the inhabitants. The difference is in how we view each scripture in referrence to all mankind. If you believe they both refer to all of mankind then they conflict with each other. But if you view John 3:16 as God loved the world because of those who would believe and not because of those who would reject him, then perhaps 1 John 2:15 is telling us not to love the natural man nor the evil which he works. These are just some thoughts which I find interesting. If you see error, do offer correction. Otherwise, this just peaks my interest that much more..:-)

In His prayer in John 17:9, He prayed not for the "present world inhabitants" as He concentrated on His disciples. In the middle of His prayer, He prayed for those who (the future believers) will believe His Word. And then He prayed for the unity of the believers so that the "world inhabitants" will believe His Word.

Germanjoy, I understand what your saying. But the problem I'm seeing is if Christ then "prayed for the unity of the believers so that world inhabitants will believe", why then did he say is not praying for the world (all inhabitants)? This is why it doesn't make sense. If "world" includes all people and Christ said he is not praying for the world, then he must be praying only for some, those who would believe (elect), just as he stated.

[Recycled]

OneJoe, Jesus' prayer recorded in John 17 is Jesus praying for his band of disciples that are about to be sent out to become the fathers of the Christian church. In this prayer, it is not Jesus' intent to pray for the entire world, but He is praying specifically on behalf of His disciples.

R~

[germanJoy]

Christ's desire was that his Father's will be done in the world. It was never God's desire that all become saved. If that was God's will, we wouldn't be having this discussion.
It is a matter of distinguishing the difference between desire and will. For example, I as a mother desire to bless my daughter which I do if she obeys. But if she rebels and disobeys my command, I will punish her for it. From this given example, the desire is independent of the will. So is with God, He desires all to be saved but since not all obey, He wills that they be judged.

The context of John 3:16 is clear it is referring to the creation and its inhabitants. In 1 John 2:15, it is the same word which is being used, not another referring to an age. Except this scripture tells us not to love the world. To say this scripture is referring only to the wicked in the world would be leaving out the first part of the scripture. It says "Love not the world, niether the things that are in the world...". Here we see the world, and the things which are in the world are separated into two distinct categories. Obviously the things which are in the world is understood, however, what is meant by "world" is what we should ponder on. Surely God is not telling us to hate the very thing he gave his son for? God forbid! Is he telling us to hate his creation? Why then does he love it and tell us not to? If referring to all inhabitants, why then are we told not to love anyone? The only view which I see is the inhabitants. The difference is in how we view each scripture in referrence to all mankind. If you believe they both refer to all of mankind then they conflict with each other. But if you view John 3:16 as God loved the world because of those who would believe and not because of those who would reject him, then perhaps 1 John 2:15 is telling us not to love the natural man nor the evil which he works. These are just some thoughts which I find interesting. If you see error, do offer correction. Otherwise, this just peaks my interest that much more..:-)
The error I see in using "inhabitants" to mean as "world" in this verse "do not love the world" (1 John 2:15) is the contradiction it shows against "God loving the world" (John 3:16). Thus, one needs to see the other 3 meanings (I gave in my last post) and the best accurate application offered is Nr. 2, ie., the "kingdom". The "kingdom" of the world which Satan has authority upon which are seen by the physical eyes is not of Christ and therefore should be hated by us. The corresponding Scriptures to these are:

Matt. 4:8 Again, the devil took Him to a very high mountain, and showed Him all the kingdoms of the world, and their gory;

John 18:36 Jesus answered, "My kingdom is not of this world. If My kingdom were of this world, then My servants would be fighting, that I might not be delivered up to the Jews; but as it is, My kingdom is not of this realm.

We are thus told "not to love the world" in connection with "not to love the kingdom of Satan since this so-called "world" is not the kingdom of Christ".

Germanjoy, I understand what your saying. But the problem I'm seeing is if Christ then "prayed for the unity of the believers so that world inhabitants will believe", why then did he say is not praying for the world (all inhabitants)? This is why it doesn't make sense. If "world" includes all people and Christ said he is not praying for the world, then he must be praying only for some, those who would believe (elect), just as he stated.

I wrote:
In His prayer in John 17:9, He prayed not for the "present world inhabitants" as He concentrated on His disciples. In the middle of His prayer, He prayed for those who (the future believers) will believe His Word. And then He prayed for the unity of the believers so that the "world inhabitants" will believe His Word.

I am sure there was a time Christ prayed also for the salvation of the unbelievers (the sinners; the adulterers; the robbers; the criminals, etc.) although it was not mentioned in the bible (not everything is written there anyway). But if we see how Christ loved the sinners, we will understand that He did pray for them. At this particular time in John 17:9, Christ was sort of expressing: "Now I do not pray for the world (the inhabitants or unbelievers; "this time is either not now or over") but this time (of prayer) is for My disciples." Christ's prayer here is emphasized on 3 classes of people; His present disciples, His future disciples, and the future world inhabitants (they may believe and know). Since Christ started this prayer with "the hour has come", the time is of importance indicating it could be one of His last prayers on earth. Thus, He concentrated on His own and the future world inhabitants, the believers and unbelievers, whom He desired to save as He was about to offer His life, a salvation which will be available for all inhabitants but which in the end are availed only by all who will believe in Him. :)

Best regards.
germanJoy

[Recycled]

Furthermore, to say John 3:16 was meaning every inhabitant would conflict with 1 John 2:15 when it states we are not to love the world. 1Jo 2:15 Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.
OneJoe, with all due respect, this Scripture reference is taken completely out of context and is totally irrelevant to your argument.

The "world" as referred to here, is the world economic system, i.e. the "ways and things" of the world.

A similar point is made elsewhere in Scripture, saying, "Seek first the kingdom of God and His righteousness and all these things (of the world) will be added unto you".

R~

[Recycled]

The word "any" is an indefinite pronoun in the greek translated as any or one or a certain one, it is NOT in a singular form. It means certain ones.
According to the Blue Letter Bible Greek Lexicon, "any" can be translated "1) a certain, a certain one" and can be properly rendered "any one".

Therefore, II Peter 3:9 clearly indicates that "...God is not willing that "any man" should perish, but that "ALL" should come to repentance.

A similar statement is made in I Timothy 2:3-6:"For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Jesus Christ, who gave Himself a ransom for all to be testified in due time...."

In spite of your opposition, this clearly indicates God's universal concern for mankind, including John 3:16 as well.

Respectfully,

Recycled

[Recycled]

There is a difference between GODs desire and HIS divine purpose.
Please show me this in Scripture.

Are not God's will and desire one and the same? When would they ever be at variance with His divine purpose? Surely you must be able to provide some Scriptural support for this.

R~

[hisredeemed]

Truly!

For God so, loved the world He even died for those predestined to go to hell.

Why say that it's not His will for any to perish if He already preordained people to go to Hell. That would make God talking out both sides of His mouth.

What an unmerciful God is presented.

[allthingspure]

Respectfully and regretfully I will respond to your confusion this last time
No confusion here :) I know exactly what I read from Gods Word, and I know who it was written to.
The respectfully part is to say to you, that you may/are, in my humble opinion, be walking on dangerous ground.
Thank goodness its your opinion and not Gods :) Seeing as to how He is the one who gives me understanding I'm not worried at all.
[/"The Lord is not slow as to the promise as some deem slowness, but, is long-suffering toward us, not having purposed any of us to perish, but all of us to come to repentence 2pet er 3:9....Now...look at verse 13....but according to His promise, "WE" look for new heavens and a new earth, in which righteousness dwells..vs 13.....The "WE" here without any doubt reflects on "those who are equally precious" in verse one of chapter one and on the "ALL" and "US" in verse 9...............Also, a new heaven and a new earth in which righteousness dwells is a Promise that ONLY GODs people can claim.......regards....Pop
QUOTE]
So you take this to mean that God is not long-suffering to unbelievers?
Where sin did abound grace did much more abound. God is long-suffering to all.
[QUOTE]"The Lord is not slow as to the promise as some deem slowness, but, is long-suffering toward us, not having purposed any of us to perish, but all of us to come to repentence 2pet er 3:9....
Again I ask why do you suppose that believers need to come to repentance again considering ( according to OSAS) that they are already chosen and saved?


allthingspure