Does God have Two Wills?

[SemperReformanda]

In the three or four threads going on about election vs "free will", several texts have been put up as arminian proof texts for the universal saving will of God. (ie 1 Tim 2:1-4; 2 Pet 3:8-9; Ez. 18:23) Because i am lazy :) and didnt feel like hunting down through all three threads again for the older posts the "logical" answer of course was to start yet another thread on the same topic :P
No not really.. well kinda. A very much related topic but hopefully it wont digress into the exact same discussion. More specifically, Is it possible to hold that God is "willing that none should perish" and still will that some be saved and not others? Can God will one thing one way and yet still decree the opposite to occur? Its not a new idea im coming up with to try to justify the reformed perspective. It is a necessary conclusion i believe regardless or which position you hold on the Freewill/predes debate.
But I guess the point should be not can God will one thing but want the other more, but do the scriptures teach a Sovereing Will AND a moral will; Will of Decree AND will of command some have called them.
I think im paraphrasing GermanJoy when you asked the question "would God predestine what he does not want?"

Lets turn to the scriptures and see if they ever teach where God wills something that he disproves of in another sense.

Well we know that God desires us not to rebell against him. OVer and over in scripture we will find exhortations to not turn from the Lord. The idea of rebelling in and of itself necessitates an action contrary to the will of God. Yet what do we find in Rev. 17? The beast comes out of the abyss (v8) and the 10 horns which are 10 kings (v12) submit to him. they turn on the whore and eventualy in 19 make war on Christ. (v12-14) why do they give their strenght to him in rebellion against God?
Why do they submit to this beast? This personification of evil and rebellion?
vs 17 "For God has put it into their hearts to fulfill His purpose, to be of one mind, and to give their kingdom to the beast, until the words of God are fulfilled."

I mentioned this next example in an earlier post. The betrayal, trial, crucifiction of Christ. All sinful, all against Gods will. But what does Luke tell us about this evil act in Acts 2:23 "This Jesus was delivered up according to the definite plan and foreknowledge". Herods contempt for Jesus (God) in luke 23:11 Pilate's expediency of the act (luke 23:24). THe cries of Isreal for His crucifiction (Luke 23:21) Gentile soldires mockery (luke 23:36). All were in rebellion to Christ, all were against God's moral will. Yet..

Act 4:25-28
"who by the mouth of Your servant David have said:
'Why did the nations rage,
And the people plot vain things?
The kings of the earth took their stand,
And the rulers were gathered together
Against the LORD and against His Christ'

For truly against Your holy Servant Jesus, whom You anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles and the people of Israel, were gathered together to do whatever Your hand and Your purpose determined before to be done. "

John Piper taught on this saying "Herod, Pilate, teh soldiers, and Jewish crowds lifted their hand to rebel against the Most High, only to find that their rebellion was unwitting (sinful) service in the inscrutable designs of God".

God was very much willing and working for the appalling death and crucifiction of Christ. Is. 53:4, 10 "we esteemed him stricken, smitten by God...It was the will of the Lord to bruise him; he has put him to grief"

Their acts were wrong and contrary to the will of God but God designed and willed that they do them to bring about his ultimate ends. God willed in one sense and did not will in another.

looking directly at some of the "pillar text" of arminian universal saving will..
Mt. 23:37 Jesus is weeping over Jersusalem. "How often i would have gathered your children as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, and you would not" He wills for her salvation, weeps over her rejection. yet he also rejoices that the Father hides these things from the wise and reveals to children.
and Isreal failed to obtain this salavation because (Rom. 11:9) as it is written "God gave them a spirit of stupor, eyes that should not see and ears that should not hear, down to this very day"

Why did Jesus speak in parables?
Mar 4:11-12 And he said to them, "To you has been given the secret of the kingdom of God, but for those outside everything is in parables;
so that they may indeed see but not perceive, and may indeed hear but not understand; lest they should turn again, and be forgiven."
He weeps over their rejection, wills that they all be saved, but acts and speaks in a way that prohibits it. Obviously there must be an overriding will.

Ezekiel 18:32 and 2 Peter 3:9 both speak of God's will for the wicked and not desring that any perish.

And yet we see there is a sense where his will DOES delight in the destruction fo the wicked. (Deut. 28:63 "as the Lord took delight in doing good and multiplying you so the Lord will take delight in bringing ruin upon you and destroying you"

In 1 Samuel we see that God also desired the destruction of Eli's wicked sons. Why did Eli's sons not listen to Eli and turn from their sin? 1 Sam 2:25 "but they would not listen to the voice of their father, for the Lord desired to put them to death"


Yes of course we believe that God wills that all should come to know him and that none should perish. Thats why we preach Chist to everyone. However we also know that God desires something else more than that. A higher will.. if you will :P

I stated before that if you stopped to think about it both reformed and non reformed viewpoints hold this. To those of you who think you dont :).. we both agree that God desires all to be saved, so how come not everyone is???
the arminian must answer "because he desires somethign else more than the salvation of all men. He desires that man have free will, and to God man free choosing Him is more important, an overriding will, to His saving all men."

So why is it a "distortion of scripture" when the calvanist says "God desires all men be saved, but he desires something else even more? He desires to be glorified, in his justice, in his sovereignty, in his wrath, in his power, in His mercy. He desires His Glory so much that it he will ordain the perishing of some that the riches of his mercy be made evident to the vessels prepared for glory.

Rom 9:22-23
" [What] if God, willing to shew [his] wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory, "

[germanJoy]

Hi Semper, I am and still is unable to address your posts to me due to limited time. I will get back to them as soon as I can. However, there is one favorite WORDS OF A MAN you seemed to be quite fond of quoting here which is contradictory to a certain bible verse, namely: "To suppose that whatever God requireth of us that we have power of ourselves to do, is to make the cross and grace of Jesus Christ of none effect." ~John Owen
This quotation supports the teaching salvation solely by faith without works which contradicts James 2:24-26 You see that a man is justified by WORKS, and NOT BY FAITH ALONE. And in the same way was not Rahab the harlot also justified BY WORKS, when she received the messengers and sent them out by another way? FOR JUST AS THE BODY WITHOUT SPIRIT IS DEAD, SO ALSO FAITH WITHOUT WORKS IS DEAD..

If our works done by our own will have no EFFECT on us being elect, then faith would have been enough and James 2:24-26 would have not been written. However, it is and this verse becomes the BOTTLENECK of the extreme teaching "PREDESTINATION leading to once saved is always saved".

[germanJoy]

Additionally, Jesus spoke many parables (He did it in parables because there are some who will never understand it and still are not understanding it) regarding THE NEED FOR US to DO SOMETHING ABOUT OUR SALVATION BY OUR OWN WILL for example, The 10 Virgins, The Parable of the Talents, etc. Since I do not have enough time to write the parables here, I will try to do it next time. I have quoted also scriptures in Romans regarding the CUTTING-OFF of the branch that does not bear fruit (since by their own will they did not continue in God's kindness).

[SemperReformanda]

Hmm :) not quite the topic of the two wills of God.
I will respond to James 2, when i have a bit more time. Im in a bit of a rush tonight. I think you are overlooking alot of context that clarifies your misunderstanding of that text.
However, in keeping with the thread of the two wills of GOd (Will of Decree and will of command) even with the interpretation you ascribe to James 2...
Assuming God commands doing works for justification as well as faith, who is it that works in us to will and to do His good pleasure? He works in some to produce these works and not in others even though he comands they be done. That was in fact the point of the original post on this thread. Can or rather does God command one thing while in his sovereign will ordaining the opposite.
and yes. the scripture is full of examples of Him doing so. I hope to post several more as well when i have a bit more time in hopes that we can see that its not just a few isolated events but a resounding theme woven through the scripturse as to the Character of our God.

So in response to the John Owen signature. supposing that God may require works (although i hope it becomes very clear that no work can be added to the cross to gain favor with God) but it is still He who infact works them in the elect becaues the elect cannot produce them of themselves. Yes i do see ample times in scripture where those who do not preservere will fall under Gods wrath. But scripture also teaches that NONE who truely put their trust in God will be allowed to fall away insuch manner nor will they be allowed to not produce good works.

"He who began a good work in you will be faithful to complete it"

note His promise in giving a New Covenant.
Eze 36:27
And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do [them]. And ye shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; and ye shall be my people, and I will be your God.

Because we CANNOT do what is required of us..It is HE who will do it both for us and through us.

And he is more than just and capable and in fact prone to will and command one thing while willing/ordaining the opposite to occur for His good ends.

i know this is really short and probably leaves alot unanswered. I apologize for that. I will try to show the biblicity of the john owen quote as well as explain the james 2 and the reference to romans ASAP :)

Hopefully sooner than later, but i gotta run.
Peace in Christ,
Nathan

[germanJoy]

As I have quoted the verses already, to Onejoe under the thread "Who did Christ die for" indicating the importance of works for the perfection of our faith, I will give them to you again for your references.

Matt. 7:24-27 Therefore everyone who hears these words of Mine and ACTS UPON THEM may be compared to a WISE MAN....And everyone who hears these words of Mine and DOES NOT ACT UPON THEM may be compared to a FOOLISH MAN..."

If you have faith alone without works (without acting) then you are foolish but if you have faith WITH WORKS then you are WISE not according to my words but ACCORDING TO THE WORDS OF CHRIST. And foolish slaves will be casted out into the outer darkness... Matthew 25:14-30

Again, James 2:24-26 "A man is justified also by WORKS and not by FAITH ALONE."

John Owen's words only confirms Eph. 2:8,9 but not the other scriptures. Please bear in mind that Eph. 2:8,9 does not contradict but just partly confirms the message of James 2:24-26.

God bless you, brother.

[SemperReformanda]

still typing :) sorry accedintally hit "enter" while not in the text box window forcing it to post..
so if a mod wanted to delete this edit that would be cool while i finish the actual post :)

[SemperReformanda]

I yeild... :)
I give up my poor attempt to keep the thread on the topic of Whether it is possible for God to willfully ordain the opposite of what he says his moral/commanded will is. :) However, after we digress into James 2 I would like to hear your response to the original post of the thread :).

Well, it appears we have a problem. The Word of God contradicts itself. But only at first glance :). Its true that James 2:24-26 can appear to be contradicting the theme of the rest of scripture, the Christ alone saves us, which has led several theologians, including Luther, to doubt the validity of its canonization, but i believe if we take the time to search this out, and rightly divide (interpret) His world it will show to maintain its integrity.

Lets look first at Romans chapter 4

In its context..
It follows a three chapter argument for the depravity of man before a Holy God. We see how everyone is inexecusably under the judgement of God. In this arguement Paul teaches first on the Heathen, then those who have some light of conscience,etc and finally the Jew who had the full light of scriptures and shows them all to be w/out excuse. In making this point he brings up the fact that God will judge us all based on our works. Those who do good according tothe good they do, and those who did bad according to he bad. He follows this point and closes this argument with a horrifying indictment found in 3:10-19. THat while we are to be judged on our works, NO one EVER of his own unregenerate nature does any good work. So we are all condemned.
Following chapter four Paul will go on in chapters 5 and 6 to teach us that no only does no one do right, but no one CAN do right even though it is required of us. That everyone because of Adam is enslaved to sin and death.
(again proving Owens point , for even though we are judged on our works we do not have the ability to do right.) He teaches that we are not sinners because we sin, but rather we sin (individuals sins being the fruit,not the cause) because we are born sinners.
We also find that the only works that counted were the works of the Law. For before the law, though sin existed, it was not counted against man because it was not a direct violation of a given Law of God. (Rom 5:13)

Now with all this context we come tot he end of chapter three and begin chapter for wondering how can we be just, righteous before this Holy God?

Rom 3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law the knowledge of sin.

So by deeds (works) done even according to God's Holy law given to moses (the one which made our transgressions actually count against us). we cannot be made just in His sight. We cannot hvae the righteousness required for salvation. However, there IS a righteousnes thats manifested to us, that we can have. Its the righteousness the law and all the prophets bore witness to. Its the very righteousness of God Himself.

Rom 3:21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
Rom 3:22 Even the righteousness of God [which is] by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

In a sense you right sister :). Righteousness IS required for salvation. However its not any sort of good works that we can add to faith. The ONLY rightouseness that can save us is complete and total perfect righteousness. The very Righteousness of God himself, as shown to us in the Form of Christ who fulfilled all law, and was sinless while here on earth.
And how do we get that righteousness? (vs 22) It is imputed (counted, credited to the accounts) of all who believe. Faith is the means by which God chose to impute 100% total righteousness. His very own good works to us.

Rom 3:24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus

Justified freely. All the context surrounding this passage clearly supports the defining of justification as being made righteous. How do we become righteous? thats what justification must mean for any of this text to fit with the surround Rom 1-3 and 5-6.

This does not compliment your interpretation of james 2 but directly opposes it. It says the exact opposite. Watch.

Rom 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

Why? He gives a reason! HE wants the glory! No man can say I had a part in my justification. I contributed my own good works. see:

Rom 3:27 Where [is] boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.

no law or system of works can help because then we could boast. For this reason.."therefor".. we must conclude...

Rom 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

Rom 3:30 Seeing [it is] one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith.

He (Paul ) starts pounding this point home. GOD makes us righteous, both Jew and Gentile through faith. (fyi and probably a discussion in and of itself for another time another place. Faith here isnt something we are offereing up to God,saying look at my faith and exchange it for righteousness, [for that would be a work in and of itself] it is the [I]means by which God imputes His righteousness to us. Through faith, not because of faith.)

Rom 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.
So does this negate the law and its works? No it fulfills it because Christ Kept the law for us, and we now have this righteous keeping of the law and its works imputed (counted for) us.

Now finally with this context in mind we get to Rom 4. And Paul says, lets look at some examples...

Rom 4:1 What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?
Rom 4:2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath [whereof] to glory; but not before God.

Again the focus of God alone being glorified in our salvation. If abraham was justified by works then ABRAHAM could glory, but he cannot do that before God, why?

Rom 4:3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
Rom 4:4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.

see, if it was by works.. if abraham worked for his rightousness, his reward wouldn't be and act of grace, but a debt. Something God owed him.


Rom 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.


Again not complintary of the provided interp of James 2. But direct contradicion. The one who does NOT work, but believes on the one who makes the ungodly righteous.

Now look at David. says paul. David understood this, this imputation of righteousness and the non counting of personal works (for they we saw in the indictment prove only to be works of sin).

Rom 4:6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,
Rom 4:7 [Saying], Blessed [are] they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.
Rom 4:8 Blessed [is] the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.

and how does he get this blessedness
Rom 4:16 Therefore [it is] of faith, that [it might be] by grace; ...
and why? so that its of GRACE not debt. nor any combination of the two.

Righteousness is required YES. But we are unable to provide it, so GODS righteousness is imputed to us. THrough faith alone.

Rom 4:22 And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness.
Rom 4:23 Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was imputed to him;
Rom 4:24 But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead;
Rom 4:25 Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.

WOW!! :) now THAT sista ;) is GRACE.. I have Christ's very own righteous works. woot!! but we see James and he says ah.. CHrist's works arent quite good enough. Yes paul says that faith Brings upon you God's very own righteousness, but God's righteousness isnt quite good enough.. you must add some of your own. You see why Luther was horrified at this thought?

[SemperReformanda]

You may have heard the expression "this is just a matter of symantics". Symantics meaning 'words and their definitions'. Through expressions like that we see our cultures tend to downplay the significants of symantics. But YES this conflict can only be resolves by studying the symantics! Word meaning is CRITICAL in study of the scritpure. So we look at Paul and james and see are they infact speaking of the same thing when they speak of justifications.

Another brilliant example in english is the word race. I can read of paul running the race, or later of his teaching of the Gospel being for all races. How confusing when i try to force the only one meaning on a word that symantically has several.

Justification (dikaioo) in the greek is the same. Symantically (look it up in any greek/english lexicon, or strongs or wherever. In the greek language, like race in the english language, Justification legitmately has several meanings.

1) to render righteous or such he ought to be
2) to show, exhibit, evince, one to be righteous, such as he is and wishes himself to be considered
3) to declare, pronounce, one to be just, righteous, or such as he ought to be

In studying scripture we dont assume the meaning we want a word to have, we look at the symantic possibilities and see which one the context supports.

now justificaton can me, to judicially declare one righteous, to make one righteous; or it can mean to show oneself to be righteous.

Looking through scripture we can see uses of it in both senses.
for example:

Romans 3:4 God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That Thou mightest be justified in Thy sayings, and mightest overcome when Thou art judged.

What meaning does justification have in this verse? We look to context. The context is Paul asking if through their disbelief Isreal made God's promises false. And paul says NO. God is True!! and he quotes david's Psalm 51, saying That Thou might be justified.
Now which definition does the context suppor? lets try them.
1) "That you may make your self rightous"... THat I think we both can agree would be blasphemy. God has NO need to make himself righteous, he already IS righteous. so lets try the other one.
2) "That you may show, prove yourself to be righteous".
Symantically both are valid options. Contextually, however Paul cannot mean the same thing he means in romans 4 hear. It MUST mean the other definition of justification or else paul has just taught that God must make himself righeous. No, he must mean God will show that He is righteous.

One more example before returning to james.
(lol now you see why i was hesitant to start this the other day. its been a over an hour just trying to get to the point of the topic :) )

Luke 16:14 And the Pharisees also, who were covetous, heard all these things: and they derided him.
Luke 16:15 And he said unto them, Ye are they which justify yourselves before men; but God knoweth your hearts: for that which is highly esteemed among men is abomination in the sight of God.

Here we have Jesus talking to the pharisees. And he tells them "you justify yourself before men. But God knows your hearts..."
WHich meaning of Justification MUST fit this context. They can not be making themselves actually righteous before men, if their hearts are an abomination as God so well knows. Sothey must be showng themselves,trying to prove to men that they are righteous, when in fact they are not.

and now..finally. :)

Jam 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

wow. A direct contradiction to Paul? We have two definitions to work with here: To be made righteous...or...To show, or prove to be righteous. Inserting boht definitions into the text we have. 1) Ye see then that how by works a man is "made righteous", and not by faith only. or 2) Ye see then that how by works a man is "shown to be, or proved righteous" and not by faith only.
Lets turn to context to see which is the correct :)

Well the context of James we have him teaching how true religion and faith works itself out in the lives of believers. Written to Christians, not a mixed audience. and he has all sorts of intresting sentences which shed light on the proper interp.
For example:
He follows a passage of a man not helping his poor brothers and sisters yet claiming to believe, this not profiting anyone, with vs 18.

Jam 2:18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

I am SHOWING my faith [which according to Paul was the means by which i have God's OWN righteousness] through my works... intresting. ;)
this theme is woven through out the text of James. Our showing of good works for people to see.
(i.e. 3:13) or his examples of look at job.. look at elijah...
Let's look at dome of the examples he gives real quick. He refers to the same person that Paul did, Abraham. And says:

James2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
Jam 2:22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
Jam 2:23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.

Now assuming your first interpretation we would believe that Abraham was "made righteous" when he offered Isaac on the alter. However vs 23 sheds important light to dispute that interp. It says this was a fullfillmetn of the scriptures saying abraham believed God and it was counted to him as righteousness. We look to this story of Abraham and it makes it even more plain.
When did God declare Abraham to be righteous? Was it in Gen. 22 when Abraham "works" by offereing up Isaac? Or was it years earlier, before Isaac was born? all the way back in Gen. 15:6 when he believed God.
With this story as support either James was completely confused by quoting abraham as being declared righteous at the wrong time, or he is saying that Abrahams work fulfilled what God already declared as true. Abraham offering up Isaac showed that abraham did infact have faith and was in fact now righteous, like God had said.

Again his [james] reference to devils makes no sense if we choose the first definition of justification. Even the devils believe and tremble??? Why even throw that in their. Christ never came to earth as a fallen angel, lived a perfect angels life, and died in their stead for them. Demons can believe and work as much as they want,but Christ's death had nothing to do with their justification. They will not no matter what they do be made righteous.
It only makes sense if you define justification as shown to be righteous. They believe, but they are not righteous and we know that because their actions show otherwise.

The whole of James makse alot more sense (as well as not obviously contradicting Paul) when the second (the logical) meaning is applied to the text.

We know that true saving Faith will produce fruit. GOd promises that. He also promises that it is HE that will complete that work in us. So the very probably interpretation of James is, you say you have faith. A faith not producing works is not a true faith because if you truely believe in Christ you would be righteous. And that righteousness would be evident in your life. If there is true good works in your life then you are shown to be righteous. NOT good works help make you righteous. They do not add on to the righteousness we have in Christ.

If you do not have good works you are endanger of hell, true. But not because you havent added enough righteousness to make yourself righteous, but because you are showing that you probably do not infact believe and have not recieved the righteousness of God.

That is fitting also more with the warnings through out scripture of False teachers. "You KNOW them by their fruit." They demonstrate whether they are righteous or not. And the epistles of John. they will know you by your love".. he who does not love knows not God...Your works demonstrate the truth that already is. They dont save you.

Read through James with that mindset and you see the integrity of the epistle :). Its no longer several random thoughts thrown together, but one continuous, building theme :). And it also shows the integrity of the rest of scripture. Only with that interpretation does it confirm Eph. 2: 8,9 "for by grace are saved, through faith. and that not of yourself, it is the gift of God, not of works so that no man can boast. The first interp is a clear contradiction, not a confirmation.

And when you add to all that the truth that even saving faith itself is a fruit of God's regenerating act and not produced by a depraved man, that God authored it, and having started it will complete it...it brings even more integrity to scriptures all fittng together with one great theme :)

anyhow.. I really hope that helped sister :)
in christ,
Nathan

[germanJoy]

FYI, Luther stood up against the Catholic teaching on SALVATION BY WORKS. I never believed nor will ever believe on SALVATION BY WORKS, otherwise I will be the first to disqualify. I was pointing at SALVATION BY FAITH that produces works which you anyway after your long posts confirmed and I quote: We know that true saving Faith will produce fruit. GOd promises that. He also promises that it is HE that will complete that work in us. So the very probably interpretation of James is, you say you have faith. A faith not producing works is not a true faith because if you truely believe in Christ you would be righteous. And that righteousness would be evident in your life. If there is true good works in your life then you are shown to be righteous. NOT good works help make you righteous. They do not add on to the righteousness we have in Christ.

If you do not have good works you are endanger of hell, true. But not because you havent added enough righteousness to make yourself righteous, but because you are showing that you probably do not infact believe and have not recieved the righteousness of God.

That is fitting also more with the warnings through out scripture of False teachers. "You KNOW them by their fruit." They demonstrate whether they are righteous or not. And the epistles of John. they will know you by your love".. he who does not love knows not God...Your works demonstrate the truth that already is. They dont save you.

That brother is exactly what I meant. Neither good works nor faith without works cannot save you but a FAITH that produces WORKS OF RIGHTEOUSNESS in Christ Jesus. Therefore to say that we do not need to produce works of righteousness to confirm the genuiness of our faith is unbiblical. So rather than saying, "To suppose that whatever God requireth of us that we have power of ourselves to do, is to make the cross and grace of Jesus Christ of none effect", why not say "Practicing and bearing fruits of wickedness makes the CROSS AND GRACE OF JESUS CHRIST OF NONE EFFECT."? Our good works are the sole confirmation that we indeed are God's children and Jesus told us TO HAVE GOOD WORKS so that the world will believe.

You are the light of the world. A city set on a hill cannot be hidden. Nor do men light a lamp, and put it under the peck-measure, but on the lampstand; and it gives light to all who are in the house. Let your light shine before men in such a way that they may see YOUR GOOD WORKS, and glorify your Father who is in heaven. Matthew 5:14-16

If Jesus Himself requires us of good works, why do we tell each other we do not need good works? The light will not shine by itself unless WE LET IT SHINE. It is a decision, a will to obey and not a false humility attitude to just believe, wait and NOT DO ANYTHING because God will be the one to do it because I have no power of my own to do it. That is a FALLACY. We are commanded to bear fruit, do good works, overcome and master sin.. it is a battle... with man it is beyond possibility... but with GOD nothing is impossible. Thus God is with us, we are not alone... and we are the vessels of honor fit for the Master's use.

[SemperReformanda]

excellent :) I am very glad that i was misunderstanding when I took you to mean that works contribute to salvation. :) But instead we are agreed that salvation is by grace alone through faith alone and that saving faith will make itself evident through the works He produces in our lives.

[germanJoy]

AMEN, AMEN & AMEN! Let's all keep it up brother, preach the Word and be the LIGHT OF THE WORLD! By it, our Lord Jesus Christ will be lifted up HIGHER and HIGHER while we are hidden behind the Cross of Christ. To God be the glory forever and ever.

[SemperReformanda]

Hey cyber,
I dont know if you read this earlier or not. However i thought i'd give it a bump because i was beginnig to type a response to your question concerning "He is "not willing that anyone should perish"! "

Yes there is a sense in which he wills none to perish. But there is another in which he does take joy in the destruction of the wicked. I'd encourage you to read the first post in this thread cuz i tried to address that at length. The subsequent post kinda digressed into a different topic.
And in a prior post you also seemed apposed to the idea that God would "PREVENT people from doing His [commanded] will". Yet there are many places in scripture where God did just that. I brought up a couple in this post too.
So yeah.. rather than retype it all. just a bump :)

[Hat Trick]

But instead we are agreed that salvation is by grace alone through faith alone and that saving faith will make itself evident through the works He produces in our lives.

This is easily one of the most interesting posts i've seen as of yet on this particular topic. Could you elaborate?

[germanJoy]

Yes there is a sense in which he wills none to perish. But there is another in which he does take joy in the destruction of the wicked.
Correction please Semper! I don't know what your bible says but my bible tells me that God does not take joy in wickedness; neither the act nor in its destruction.

Psalms 7:11 God judgeth righteously. God is angry at the wicked everyday.
Psalms 5:4 For Thou art not a God who takes pleasure in wickedness; No evil dwells with Thee.

Isaiah 10:24-25 Therefore thus says the Lord God of hosts....For in a very little while My indignation against you will be spent, and MY ANGER will be directed to their destruction.

Be careful in releasing words regarding the attributes or character of God for you will find yourself going against the Scripture. God is never joyful in His wrath, He shows anger not joy. A good thought to be considered is "are you joyful if you are angry at your children?" If you smile while being angry, your children will not take you seriously. Learn from the experience of a parents' dealings with their children and you will understand more of the character of God as a Father.

[SemperReformanda]

German :) Perhaps you didnt read through the first post. That was infact the very point of the thread. There is a sense where God doesnt delight in destroying anyone, and yet, another will, a higher will where he does. My Bible also says the lord does not delight in the destruction of the wicked. However it ALSO says..

Deut. 28:63 "as the Lord took delight in doing good and multiplying you so the Lord will take delight in bringing ruin upon you and destroying you"

In 1 Samuel we see that God also desired the destruction of Eli's wicked sons. Why did Eli's sons not listen to Eli and turn from their sin?

1 Sam 2:25 "but they would not listen to the voice of their father, for the Lord desired to put them to death"

[germanJoy]

OK, I read your first post again and found contradictory statements you made, to wit: "The betrayal, trial, crucifiction of Christ. All sinful, all against Gods will."
That contradicts your next sentence: God was very much willing and working for the appalling death and crucifiction of Christ. Is. 53:4, 10 "we esteemed him stricken, smitten by God...It was the will of the Lord to bruise him; he has put him to grief"

You tried to explain the contradiction (which you yourself made) which created more confusion than clarification, and I quote:
Their acts were wrong and contrary to the will of God but God designed and willed that they do them to bring about his ultimate ends. God willed in one sense and did not will in another.

What is it really then? Was Christ's crucifixion God's will or not? Absolutely, it was GOD's will and not as you have said that it was not (unless you can prove it otherwise with scriptures :-))
Is. 53:4, 10 "we esteemed him stricken, smitten by God...It was the will of the Lord to bruise him; he has put him to grief"[/

In addition, Jesus rebuked Satan when Peter hindered the crucifixion. It was the devil's will that Jesus is not crucified.

As to the "delighting in destroying the wicked", I will get back to that next as I need more time to study the matter and seek the Lord about it. :-)

[SemperReformanda]

"What is it really then? Was Christ's crucifixion God's will or not?"
Exactly !!! :)
THATS what im getting at :) There ARE two wills in GOd. The will of command, where he commands us to obey. To NOT unjustly crucify the innocent. A resounding theme throughout the old Testament is justice. He hates deceitful scales. He detests injustice. Leaders should not condemn the innocent. Judas was in SIN to betray God himself. The people were in rebellion against God.. in sin.. against his moral command, to reject their God. God does not want man to rebel, and yet there is something he DOES want more.
He does want to be glorified. He wants Christ to be crucified for the salvation of men for the praise of His glory.

Perhaps an illustration will make it clearer. I know alot of times my illustrations muddle more than make clear but i will try. If this doesnt help just ignore it :).

Parents. Loving parents. Good parents do not enjoy hurting their children. The dont want to hit them. But there is something they want even more than not physically hurting them. They want them to grow up into Godly men and women. So even though they dont want to hurt their kids, because they do want something else even more, they will discipline their children. In that sense they DO want to discipline, but in a lower sense they dont.

God wills that none shall perish. However, "MY God is in heaven and ALL that He wills he does." SO he MUST, for a greater reason, will the destruction of some more than he wills none to perish. And that greater reason is His glory displayed, made manifest.

There are two wills in God, commanded will and ordained will. And yes, God DOES and can command one thing and not permit that to occur. LIke Eli's sons. THey were commanded to repent, to obey their father, but they didnt. Why? BECAUSE God desired to put them to death. Thats what the for means.. THe reason they did not turn is so that God would be just in putting them to death.

Why did GOd, who commanded Isreal to repent, speak to the leaders in parables?

Mar 4:11-12 And he said to them, "To you has been given the secret of the kingdom of God, but for those outside everything is in parables;
so that they may indeed see but not perceive, and may indeed hear but not understand; lest they should turn again, and be forgiven."

He did it so that they would NOT understand. Why? because if they understood they would turn again and be forgiven. But he says so that they would not do that. .so that they would not repent adn be forgiven (even though thats what he commanded them to do) he spoke to them in a way that seeing they would not see adn hearing they woud not understand.

[SemperReformanda]

Yes, since you are not a believer this is probably the most crucial thing for you to understand about the Christian faith. I have to be at work again in like 4 min.. but i promise this is my priority when i get back home this evening :) So yeah.. just didnt what you to think none of us cared to respond to this post. It wil just take some time :)

[SemperReformanda]

Quote:
Originally Posted by SemperReformanda
But instead we are agreed that salvation is by grace alone through faith alone and that saving faith will make itself evident through the works He produces in our lives.

This is easily one of the most interesting posts i've seen as of yet on this particular topic. Could you elaborate?


Hat Trick,
What the world usually thinks (and a good many of individuals who call themselves Christian) Christianity teaches is that we are working, trying to be good enough, to do enough good things to earn God's favor and make it into heaven. Unfortunatly that is the complete opposite of what the Bible teaches.

It teaches that all man is already guilty before God. We all have sinned and therefor deserve hell. NOTHING we do can change the fact that we are guilty. I could do nothing but "good works" from now till the day I die and still i would be guilty and deserving of hell. The Bible teaches that absolute, 100% righteousness is required for God to be pleased with us and every single one of us has fallen way short. In fact it teaches we are completley opposite. We are 100% unrighteous. And so we are all correctly hellbound.
However to remedy this, Christ, The third person of the Trinity. God the Son. Came to earth. He was born of a virgin and therefor not inheriting adams sin nature. He lived the 100% righteous life that we never could.
The Bible teaches that the penalty for sin is death. Both physically dying, and the second death which is suffering the wrath of God in the afterlife, something that would take eternity for us to endure and still never pay off our sentence.

Now Christ never sinned so He did not earn that sentence. He did not need to ever physically die, or suffer Gods wrath. But he did both. He payed a wage he didnt earn by dying physically, and suffering hell. God says that our sin was imputed (counted as) on Him. And he says that anyone who trusts that Christ having paid his penalty has the 100% righteousness of God imputed to him.

Thats what the first part of that post is meaning. " salvation is by grace alone through faith alone" Salvation is not earned. Its undeserved. Its by God's grace that he saves us. And the means by which he imputes that righteousness that he requires is by faith. Trusting in Christs work as sufficient for us. NOT trying to earn it, or add to it some kind of righteousness of our own. Its faith alone.

Now in bringing a man from a state of 100% unrighteousness, to trusting in Him, God changes the nature of that person. He places in him a nature that longs for and delights in the things of God. Not that a christian can never sin, sure sometimes we return in habit to doing what we liked with our old nature, but its a denying of what we now are. Because our nature has been changed though, now we can actually do good works, things that are pleaseing to Him. And thats what the second half of the post was referring to. "saving faith will make itself evident through the works He produces in our lives." We see that we have saving faith because he is now working through us to do good things, causing us to delight in doing good instead of evil. Good works for a christian are not things we try to do to make God pleased with us. We cant. :) He is already pleased with Christ and we have the very righteousness of CHrist. But instead Good works are us enjoying who we now are in Christ. And they are evidence, proof that we have in fact been changed by God.

Did that make any sort of sense, or expound on the statement in the way you were looking for?

[Hat Trick]

Please, forgive me for waiting so long to repost, It's simply that out of respect for you and your time I wanted to analyze your post more deeply before answering. This is indeed what I was hoping for you to expand on, especially the initial portion of earning salvation vs. salvation through grace by faith. I suppose the next question is, how does one develop or refine faith? If my understanding is correct, (and perhaps it isn't :-D ) It is not God's will that any should perish, and thusly all would recieve salvation were it completely his decision. However, people do die unsaved, and from what you're saying it seems to be that this is due to lack of faith (correct me if i'm wrong here, also). Therefore, the logical conclusion is that in order for a non-Christian to recieve God's forgiveness it requires a certain measure of faith, but a non-Christian doesn't have faith and must develop it somehow. Where, then, does this come from?

[WhiterThanSnow]

This was very well put and things are becoming more and more clear to me everyday reguarding this whole subject. It is so exciting to me to navigate the sovereinty of God through scripture and to see God's plan for His glory of which He is more worthy of than I will ever know, but am learning more about minute by minute. I'm a little late on this subject but there is maybe one more passage I'm curious about and that is Rev 2:1-7.

Rev 2:1 Unto the angel of the church of Ephesus write; These things saith he that holdeth the seven stars in his right hand, who walketh in the midst of the seven golden candlesticks;


Rev 2:2 I know thy works, and thy labour, and thy patience, and how thou canst not bear them which are evil: and thou hast tried them which say they are apostles, and are not, and hast found them liars:


Rev 2:3 And hast borne, and hast patience, and for my name's sake hast laboured, and hast not fainted.


Rev 2:4 Nevertheless I have [somewhat] against thee, because thou hast left thy first love.


Rev 2:5 Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.


Rev 2:6 But this thou hast, that thou hatest the deeds of the Nicolaitans, which I also hate.


Rev 2:7 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.

It seems to me that it is being acknowledged here that they did have God as thier first love at one point. If the lampstand (or candlestick) represents Christ (which I think that it does) and the warning is that if they don't repent He will quickly remove their lampstand, what exactly is being said here?

Also, I do not want to insert or reverse the text in Rev. 3:5 but I am curious to why it would be mentioned that their names will not be blotted from the book of life. Is it just saying simply that? Not that it has ever happened, but that it never will?

I know this is probably played out by now but bear with me ;) Thanks!

[OneJoe]

Hello whiter than show. I was just curious why you thought the candlestick represents Christ? He who holds the seven stars walks in the midst of the seven golden candlesticks. Which it is my understanding these candle sticks represent the seven churches spoken to in Revelation.

Rev 1:20 The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches.

It's possible I may have misunderstood what you were saying. I tend to do that a lot lately..:-)

God bless

Onejoe

[foundinHim]

The word "will" in Greek is "thelema" and it is a noun that denotes resolve, counsel, or determination. Jesus Christ said in John 6:38 "For I came down from heaven, not to do Mine own will, but the will of Him That sent me."

In Psa.143:10, we read, "Teach me to do Thy will; for Thou art my God: Thy Spirit is good; lead me into the land of uprightness. Being a member of His body, the church, we are to be led by the Spirit, not by the flesh. This is now a free-d will, no longer under the bondage of sin or death. We can now serve and worship Him with a "free spirit". Referring to Psa.51:12..."with Thy free spirit=with a spirit of willing and unforced obedience. (Gal.5:1) "Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage."

(Eph.5:17) "Wherefore be ye not unwise, but understanding what the will of the Lord is. (Eph.6:6-7) "Not with eyeservice, as menpleasers; but as the servants of Christ, doing the will of God from the heart; with good will doing service, as to the Lord, and not to men."

(Col.1:8-12) who also declared unto us your love in the spirit. (spirit=the product of the new nature) For this cause we also, since the day we heard it, do not cease to pray for you, and to desire that ye might be filled with the knowledge of His will in all wisdom and spiritual understanding; that ye might walk worthy of the Lord unto all pleasing, being fruitful in every good work, and increasing in the knowledge of God; strengthened with all might, according to His glorious power, unto all patience and longsuffering with joyfulness; giving thanks unto the Father, Which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light:

How can we do His will if we are occupied with our self and still be worthy of His calling? (refer to Col.1:10-12) (Rom.12:12) Rejoicing in hope; patient in tribulation; continuing instant in prayer; (2Tim.2:25) In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging the truth;" We all want the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help us God!!!

Give thanks unto God our Father, for what He has made us to be "in Christ". Have full confidence in the grace and power of God and glorify Christ and magnify His Living Word.

May His will be done in each of our lives that we may glorify Christ in all we think, say, and do. And may Christ the Living Word dwell in us richly. The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with your spirit. Peace be to the brethren, and love with faith, from God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ. Grace be with all them that love our Lord Jesus Christ in sincerity. Amen.

[SirLaffalot aka CarltonRoss]

Here's my two cents' worth-- Faith without works is dead; show me your faith without your works and I will show you my faith by my works.

First, let's get a proper definition of works-- I do not believe it is good works to achieve salvation-- works, as mentioned in this context is "those things that come about as a result of my faith" and that simply means that true faith will have results.

You show me your faith with no results (dead faith) and I'll show you my faith by my works (a living, vibrant faith that gets results).

No, we do not achieve salvation by works-- it's done by God, by grace, through faith. Faith, though, will make things (works) happen and those happenings (works) are not only a result of faith, but a demonstration of faith.

[Word]

I agree with SirLaffalot here.:)

Here's my two cents' worth-- Faith without works is dead; show me your faith without your works and I will show you my faith by my works.

First, let's get a proper definition of works-- I do not believe it is good works to achieve salvation-- works, as mentioned in this context is "those things that come about as a result of my faith" and that simply means that true faith will have results.

You show me your faith with no results (dead faith) and I'll show you my faith by my works (a living, vibrant faith that gets results).

No, we do not achieve salvation by works-- it's done by God, by grace, through faith. Faith, though, will make things (works) happen and those happenings (works) are not only a result of faith, but a demonstration of faith.

[SirLaffalot aka CarltonRoss]

Revelation 2:4 They have left their first love: God.

Revelation 2:5 Remember from whence you have fallen (your relationship with God) and repent; do the first works (resume your relationship with God and your service to Him); unless you repent, I (Jesus) will remove your candlestick from its place.

In this vision, Jesus was walking among the seven lampstands (the seven churches) with the seven stars in His hand (the spirits, or angels, of the seven churches).

Although written to seven specific churches so many years ago, John's vision has a message applicable to every modern church today, especially in these Last Days.

[WhiterThanSnow]

I'm sorry Joe, I admit that I have only heard people refer to the lampstand as Christ recently but I'm not even sure why and it has been years since I have really studied Revelation. (Teaches me to research before I open my mouth, hehe). Still I wonder though, what is He removing from the church that once loved God as their first love?

SirLaffalot, are you saying that the warning here is that if they don't repent then He will remove "the sprits, or angels, of the seven churches"?

[SemperReformanda]

In regards to rev 3:5 though, iw ould say you are right on. Nothing in the text states that there are those who lost their salvation, but it is rather a promise to all who over come (which the rest of scritpure teaches will be all who God causes to preservere as promised) that they will not lose their place in the book of life :)

[Led]

If we are going to attack the reward of overcoming to all who overcome then we should attack the punishment as well to those who don't. You can't take the good without the bad. God's promises are always with "if". If we obey, if we overcome, if we serve God alone.

[SemperReformanda]

absolutely :) and we will, because God works in u to will and to do His good pleasure :)

[Led]

Ok, if we will always overcome then I have a question.

I know a Christian who became a homosexual. Since Homosexuals won't go to Heaven then neither will she.

Before you say that she was never saved then, let me say that she was born again, Christ did come into her life, she did confess Christ as Lord over her life and she living for God. In fact she was a children's pastor when she DECIDED to be a homosexual. I can say all this because I knew her very well.

She was saved, now she's not. As of right now her siful lifestyle has seperated her from God and is on her way to hell if she doesn't choose to repent.

It's easy to say "oh things will work out" because there's no evidence that they won't, but we live in the today world not tomorrow. Today is the day for salvation. We all have a choice and God won't stop us from walking away.

She didn't overcome and that what this passage refers to,

Revelation 2:5 Remember from whence you have fallen (your relationship with God) and repent; do the first works (resume your relationship with God and your service to Him); unless you repent, I (Jesus) will remove your candlestick from its place.

those who won't repent and won't come back to their first love (Christ) will be removed and seperated from God.

[OneJoe]

We all have a choice and God won't stop us from walking away.


Luk 15:4 What man of you, having a hundred sheep, if he lose one of them, doth not leave the ninety and nine in the wilderness, and go after that which is lost, until he find it?
Luk 15:5 And when he hath found it, he layeth it on his shoulders, rejoicing.
Luk 15:6 And when he cometh home, he calleth together his friends and neighbors, saying unto them, Rejoice with me; for I have found my sheep which was lost.

[Led]

lol

I can throw scripture too

Romans 11:22 Consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell severity; but toward you goodness, If you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off.

God is not mocked! You too will be cut off if you don't continue in His goodness.

Throwing scripture is easy...a fool can do it. Try answering my question and you might gain respect.

[WhiterThanSnow]

Led, I don't understand what you are trying to say or what is being attacked? Are you reffering to double predestination?

[WhiterThanSnow]

nevermind, I missed the last four replies ;)

[Led]

Nobody is being attacked. I'm confused.

I asked a question about a Christian homosexual, but instead got scripture about something completely different.

[Led]

just got your last reply.... delayed posting:).......... and .....post!

[WhiterThanSnow]

lol, I'm a dork and have no computor skills. I'm still learning how to scroll. God help me =)