Tongues: God speaking through us? [Archive]

OneJoe

12-30-2005, 11:33 PM

I have started a tongues topic many times. However, this time is not to debate whether tongues exists or whether it is real, but simply to cover a biblical question about tongues.

Many churches and people today claim that God speaks through them in tongues. It is my understanding that men prophecied, as God spoke to them by Revelation.

1 Corinthians says that tongues is our prayer to God, not from him to us.

1Co 14:2 For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.

1Co 14:3 But he that prophesieth speaketh unto men to edification, and exhortation, and comfort.

1Co 14:4 He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself; but he that prophesieth edifieth the church.

1Co 14:14 For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful.

Now, before someone attempts to bring up Acts Ch.2 and say that God spoke to those around, lets take a look at that one also.

Act 2:3 And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them.
Act 2:4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.
Act 2:5 And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven.
Act 2:6 Now when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that every man heard them speak in his own language.
Act 2:7 And they were all amazed and marveled, saying one to another, Behold, are not all these which speak Galilaeans?
Act 2:8 And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born?

Indeed, the devout men around heard them in their own language. Though what they were hearing was these men praying to God in the language of those around which would be in line with 1 Corinthians. I do not see where someone gets the idea that God speaks through them by tongues. But unless I missed something, I do not see where the bible supports the idea of God speaking through tongues. Perhaps someone can explain w/scriptures where the bible supports this? I'm not really interested in nonscriptural appeals. I would like to keep this post short and get to the point of why some believe this idea. So, any scriptures?

Onejoe

lovetowrite76

12-31-2005, 12:55 AM

If you continue reading Corinthians 14...

22So you see that speaking in tongues is a sign, not for believers, but for unbelievers; prophecy, however, is for the benefit of believers, not unbelievers.
23Even so, if unbelievers or people who don't understand these things come into your meeting and hear everyone talking in an unknown language, they will think you are crazy.
24But if all of you are prophesying, and unbelievers or people who don't understand these things come into your meeting, they will be convicted of sin, and they will be condemned by what you say.
25As they listen, their secret thoughts will be laid bare, and they will fall down on their knees and worship God, declaring, "God is really here among you."
26Well, my brothers and sisters, let's summarize what I am saying. When you meet, one will sing, another will teach, another will tell some special revelation God has given, one will speak in an unknown language, while another will interpret what is said. But everything that is done must be useful to all and build them up in the Lord.
27No more than two or three should speak in an unknown language. They must speak one at a time, and someone must be ready to interpret what they are saying.
28But if no one is present who can interpret, they must be silent in your church meeting and speak in tongues to God privately.
29Let two or three prophesy, and let the others evaluate what is said.
30But if someone is prophesying and another person receives a revelation from the Lord, the one who is speaking must stop.
31In this way, all who prophesy will have a turn to speak, one after the other, so that everyone will learn and be encouraged.
32Remember that people who prophesy are in control of their spirit and can wait their turn.
33For God is not a God of disorder but of peace, as in all the other churches.
34Women should be silent during the church meetings. It is not proper for them to speak. They should be submissive, just as the law says.
35If they have any questions to ask, let them ask their husbands at home, for it is improper for women to speak in church meetings.
36Do you think that the knowledge of God's word begins and ends with you Corinthians? Well, you are mistaken!
37If you claim to be a prophet or think you are very spiritual, you should recognize that what I am saying is a command from the Lord himself.
38But if you do not recognize this, you will not be recognized.
39So, dear brothers and sisters, be eager to prophesy, and don't forbid speaking in tongues.
40But be sure that everything is done properly and in order.

You had the right chapter, just needed to keep reading... Here it gives the order and manner in which tongues and interpretation is given in church. Hope that helps...

April

germanJoy

01-01-2006, 03:21 PM

v15What is the outcome then? I shall pray with the spirit (tonques) and I shall pray with the mind (prophesy) also. I shall sing with the spirit and I shall sing with the mind also.
v16 Otherwise, if you BLESS in the spirit only, how will the one who fills the place of the ungifted say the "Amen" at your giving of thanks, since he does not know what you are saying?
v 21 In the Law it is written, "BY MEN OF STRANGE TONQUES AND BY THE LIPS OF STRANGERS I WILL SPEAK TO THIS PEOPLE, AND EVEN SO THEY WILL NOT LISTEN TO ME, SAYS THE LORD"

another will tell some special revelation God has given, one will speak in an unknown language, while another will interpret what is said. But everything that is done must be useful to all and build them up in the Lord.
27No more than two or three should speak in an unknown language. They must speak one at a time, and someone must be ready to interpret what they are saying.
28But if no one is present who can interpret, they must be silent in your church meeting and speak in tongues to God privately.

If you read all these verses, you will get to understand that IT IS THE LORD who speaks through STRANGE TONQUES to the people...and these tonques are INTEPRETED (by those with gifts of interpretation) SO THAT the people will understand.

Conclusion: Tonques mean both; men are speaking to God and also God is speaking to men.

cyberemnant

01-08-2006, 07:33 PM

OK...

The very first account of "tongues" is found in Acts 2. This is where we MUST begin any study of this subject, because this is where we get our foundational understanding of what real Biblical "tongues" are and why they were given.

First, those tongues were "unknown" only to those who did not speak that particular language. But to those visiting Jerusalem from other countries, the tongues made perfect sense, because God's purpose in giving that gift was to communicate the gospel to every nation. Remember that Jesus had commissioned the Apostles to do this very thing, but He also promised to provide the power to get it done:

Acts 1:8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.

When today's manifestation of what many claim to be "tongues" takes place, no one hears the "sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind" nor do they see "cloven tongues like as of fire" on anyone, nor are the words spoken part of any known language on earth, therefore the "tongues" taking place in those churches are counterfeit...they are not the genuine article. Either people are "faking it" (which is not hard to do) or their jaw and tongue is being taken over by demonic influences.

Elsewhere in the New Testament where tongues are mentioned, they are the same kind of tongues as whatever we read about in Acts 2. There is no reason whatsoever for us to think that those tongues were any different from the original manifestation (languages belonging to some nation or tribe somewhere on earth....but not "babbling" or "gibberish" that no one understands). To defend what I just said, look at this: Acts 11:15 (Peter speaking) And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning.

Peter is referring to an event recorded back in Acts 10, when the Holy Spirit was poured out on the Gentiles and they spoke in tongues (Acts 10:46). Peter says that the Spirit was poured out on the Gentiles as it was on the Apostles at the beginning (When? Acts 2).

EnterHisPresence

01-09-2006, 12:26 PM

I just want to through in a few things, for thought.

I would like to say first, that it grieves my spirit, when I hear people saying the things as you have said, "faking it" or "being taken over by demonic spirits." Let me give warning to this. Blashemy of the Holy Spirit, is the only unforgivable sin. Mark 3:28-29 Verily I say unto you, All sins shall be forgiven unto the sons of men, and blasphemies wherewith soever they shall blaspheme: 29But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation:
Blasphemy of the Holy Ghost/Spirit, is when you declare that something of God, is not of God but rather of the devil.
Now, with that said let me share with you, this:
Is 28:11 For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people.
Also of note, is that tongues is the evidence of receiving the baptism of the Holy Spirit....Acts 10:45-46 And those of the circumcision who believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the gentiles aslo. For they HEARD THEM SPEAK with tongues and magnify God.
They knew the gentiles received the Holy Spirit because they heard the gentiles speak with other tongues. NOT because they seen fire fall down from Heaven.
Jesus himself mentioned the evidence of the Holy Spirit, in the hearing it. John 3:8: The wind blows where it wishes, and you HEAR the SOUND of it, but can not tell where it comes from and where it goes. So is everyone who is born of the Spirit.
The only mention of fire being evident with the Holy Ghost is in Acts 2, the beginning. Every other event mentioned, the Holy Ghost is acknowledged because the people spoke in tongues.

adlemi

01-09-2006, 07:53 PM

Tongues of fire sitting upon and coming inside the body of bellievers still do exist even in our time today and this, too, I testify to you so that you may put all your trust and confidence in the Lord Jesus and not to anyone else especially the bible. Speaking in tongues if to mean to speak in other tongues is fallacy for the apostles doesn't speak in tongues, but rather they speak in their own language and when they were heard by people of other tongues, each of them heard it on their own tongue. Only the Lord God can teach these things to us and the bible is way out of reach with regards to the TRUTH.

Robert

01-09-2006, 10:33 PM

I assume you have read and understood the message contained in the verses before and after Isaiah 28:11 in which case I find it odd you would use this verse as your example
Isaiah 28:11 "For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people."
These words "stammering lips", are from # 3932 in the Hebrew text, "baffoon; a foreigners, a mockers tongue. etc " Also notice the small “h” in “he” this is not referring to God, or the Holy Spirit. I wont presume to interpret the chapter for you. Just to say although it might appear fashionable to quote out of context. it is not constructive.
As for Acts 10:45 "And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Spirit."
Those that came with Peter to Cornelius' house, saw the evidence of the Holy Spirit in all of these Gentiles, and they were astonished…. Remember what that evidence of the Holy Spirit was?… When they spoke, the words were understood in every language and dialect wherever the listener was from.
Acts 10:46 "For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter,"
If these Gentiles, (foreigners) had been speaking in an unintelligible babble, how then was it that the listeners new they were magnifying God ?….
There is no babbling, or strange noises coming from one filled with the Holy Spirit, every word is understood,… crystal clear,… by everyone,… at the same time….
John 3:8: Not referring to speaking in tongues…..

Robert.

Angel

01-09-2006, 11:05 PM

Sorry adlemi

But I would rather get my information from the bible than listen to what you have to say in your post. I do not want to listen to anyone who says the bible is way out of reach with regards to the truth.

2 Tim 3 verse 16 & 17

All scripture is given by inspiration of God and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness that the man of God may be complete thoroughly equipped for every good work.

Angel

adlemi

01-10-2006, 03:22 AM

germanJoy

01-10-2006, 04:14 AM

Well, its up to you Angel, but if I were you, I would get my information and wisdom directly from God rather than comprehending the bible by yourself and through the help of others. I didn't say to any one to listen to me, but to go to and call to directly the Lord God who is alive and real. You can go directly to God and ask God to tell you the truth behind all these things I am sharing in this forum. This is my sole purpose in joining this forum, to tell everyone to go directly to the Lord God, not to me for I am commanded by the Lord not to get member of a church nor to establish my own religion, but to spread to all nations what He is teaching us.

How would you know that the bible is adulterated should you not go to and call to directly to God? How would you know the reality of the existence of God if you would not call to directly to God? How would you know the reality of all these things if God will not be the One to teach you same? H O W my brother Angel?

Bear in your mind always that the bible is not God and it is not the basis of TRUTH nor final authority of TRUTH. Only the Lord God is the basis, foundation, and final authority of TRUTH. This is absolute fact.
Hi! adlemi, Maayong Adlaw (good day) :-) (si Hesus ay Panginoon)! Jesus is Lord! This is the ABSOLUTE TRUTH. Yes, you are right to say that the bible is not THE TRUTH (Jesus is THE TRUTH). The bible is just a book and not God Himself. I know being a Filipino myself that our people treat the bible books very holy (to the point of even using it as an object of weapon against the evil forces something like "anting-anting" charm or luck). But it is not what the bible is all about. THE FACT is the bible is the ONLY BOOK on the earth that TELLS THE TRUTH about God and His Word. There is no other book (unless the "christian" archaelogists can find more original writings of scriptures that confirms the writings in the bible) as accurate as the bible considering the period of time difference from the first writer (Moses) to the last writer (John the Revelator). Here in CCF the bible is not seen as one with magic power but simply as the only material that contains WORDS of God which is the FINAL AUTHORITY over all issues presented in all threads.

Sumaiyo harinawa ang kamay ng Panginoon!

Angel

01-10-2006, 05:33 AM

Yes adlemi you are right about one thing - it is up to me, and yes I do go to God very often in prayer. And I don't think you are my brother adlemi. My brothers and sisters who are in Christ believe that the bible is a very precious document filled with God's teachings. The bible is not a dead history book but a living book which becomes our redeeming guide through life and into heaven. Tell me adlemi why should we believe that you are commanded by God? You adlemi have a democratic right to have certain beliefs and I reserve the God given right to have my own beliefs. :-)

Angel :af

blueheron32

01-10-2006, 01:33 PM

enter his presence.

It is a common scare tactic to warn people to not speak out against the signs and wonders movement, by telling them if they do such a thing that they will be committing the unpardonable sin, and will then go directly to hell.

To suggest that a person who speaks in tongues is under the control of satan is in no way blasphemy of the Holy Spirit. I have done it many times and I am not in the least bit afraid of commiting that sin.

The only time a person commits the sin of the blasphemy of the Holy Spirit is when he believes that the Spirit that was in Jesus himself was satan. And I am sure it has been committed by very few. For instance the pharisees who accused him of that very thing. Mat 12:24 But when the Pharisees heard it, they said, This fellow doth not cast out devils, but by Beelzebub the prince of the devils.

In the gospel of Mark this is made more clear..

Mar 3:28 Verily I say unto you, All sins shall be forgiven unto the sons of men, and blasphemies wherewith soever they shall blaspheme:
Mar 3:29 But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation:
Mar 3:30 Because they said, He hath an unclean spirit.

It explains that the reason he mentioned that particular sin was because they said HE had an unclean spirit.

As robert said your mention of Isaiah 28:11 was an interesting one.

Is 28:11 For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people.

I have asked people to explain to me why that verse is placed right in the middle of 1 corinthians 14, and have never recieved a satisfactory explanation. I guess this is as good a time as any to give a hint for why I think it is there...:-)

If you go back to the old testament as you have done, and as you should...you will find the context there that will help you understand it...The socalled modern gift of tongues very closely resembles the verse you have quoted. ie stammering lips... a language not understood, some call it babbling, sounds with no meaning. A foriegn lanuage that no one understands but yet God says he will speak to a people with just such a tongue.

So just why did God put that verse in the middle of 1 Cor 14? What is the context in the old testament... was the stammering lips spoken of in the oldtestament a blessing, or a curse. Through those stammering lips and the people who spoke with those lips, did God bring deliverance or judgment. I think when you find the answer to those questions in the old testament, you will find out why he placed that verse in corintians 14, when he is speaking to the churches and congregations.

blueheron32

EnterHisPresence

01-10-2006, 02:15 PM

Is 28:11 is quoted by Paul in 1 Cor 14:21 to explain that one use of tongues and interpretation is for a sign of warning to unbelievers.

"If these Gentiles, (foreigners) had been speaking in an unintelligible babble, how then was it that the listeners new they were magnifying God ?…. "

You forgot the conjunction "and" here...the verse said they heard them speaking in tongues AND magnifying God. But that's beside the point. You seem to forget about the scriptures where no one understands the one speaking in tongues i.e. 1 Cor 14:2 For he who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men but to God, for no one understands him; however, in the spirit he speaks mysteries.

There are 2 kinds of tongues...one is a special prayer language for a single believer for self edification 1 Cor 14:2-4 and (2) for public exhortation 1 Cor 12:10 which also requires interpretation, also in vs 10.

EnterHisPresence

01-10-2006, 02:46 PM

Blue,
My warning to Robert, was not meant as a scare tactic, it was just a simple warning that you should watch what you say, if you don't understand something, it's best to keep silent about it, than to jeopardize your soul.

I disagree with you of course concerning you statement that blasphemy of the Spirit is ONLY if you're speaking of Jesus. And I'll tell you why. The Holy Spirit lives in US. And I also want you to think on this, even if you refuse to believe what I have previously said. Gal 2:20 I have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself for me. See also Rom 6:1-11, 7:6, and also 2 Cor 5:15 and He died for all, that those who live should live no longer for themselves, but for Him who died for them and rose again 16 Therefore, from no on, we regard no one according to the flesh. Even though we have known Christ according to the flesh, yet now we know Him thus no longer 17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold all things become new.
So, by this, we know that we are no longer ourselves...we are all (supposed to be) (for lack of a better word) little Jesus' walking around. Unfortunately not all believers really perceive this. It is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me.

blueheron32

01-10-2006, 03:58 PM

I agree with your second paragraph...for the true believer, ie the one who has truly become saved, it is no longer he who lives but Christ who lives in him..however due to the fact that we still live in a body that lusts after sin I dont think it quite correct to say that we can live as little christs...in this body, the struggle with sin will always be present, while spiritually we will never want to sin again...

But that does not relate to the other question. Jesus as a man was also the
Son of God..actually God himself. He was one with the Holy Spirit. One in essence, one in purpose..One God with him and the Father. It is impossible to believe Jesus was indwellt by satan himself without denying his Diety, or the diety of the Holy Spirit... Such could never be the case with any other human being. No one else is One God with the Holy Spirit.... I have absolutetly no way of knowing for sure you are saved..that is between you and God, but as I read Revelation 22:18-19 I am left with no alternative but to conclude that what it says there is true.

Rev 22:18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:
Rev 22:19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

God the Holy Spirit can no longer be speaking, in the way you describe. If He was still giving revelation as you describe, he would be adding to the revelation of this book, and as he says,,,,any one who does so is cut off...

Believe it or not enterhis presence, I watch very carefully what I say, because it is God who is my master, and I have no desire to say things here that are offensive to him...but I still believe it is my responsibility before him to share the things I have learned from his word... so that i will do..

may the lord richly bless you

blueheron32

blueheron32

01-10-2006, 05:04 PM

enter his presence...

"There are 2 kinds of tongues...one is a special prayer language for a single believer for self edification 1 Cor 14:2-4 and (2) for public exhortation 1 Cor 12:10 which also requires interpretation, also in vs 10."

I agree enter, that there are two kinds of "tongues" phenomenon in the bible...Many believe that there was just the kind spoken of in Acts 2, where the tongue was a tongue understood by a particular ethnic group...I believe that is the one manifestation of tongues, and it was demonstrated on several occasions.

However the other one is described in 1 Cor 12-14. I believe it was a different kind of tongue altogether. It was an unknown tongue, in other words a language, perhaps the language of angels, a heavenly language, and God used that language to give messages to his people. much of those three chapters deal with this "tongue" and its proper administration.

It should be noted, and I believe it is significant that it is only mentioned in the church of corinth. This activity is not mentioned in connection with any other church. Only in the church at corinth. It should also be noted that it is taking place BEFORE the bible was finished..in other words, at that time it was a legitimate activity, and under the direction of the Holy Spirit. he was in fact the one behind this tongue.

That said however, when the bible was completed, the need for this gift no longer remained. God had completed his revelation, and this gift, along with the other supernatural gifts came to an end. And the rule we see in Revelations 22:18-19 took effect.

Rev 22:18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:
Rev 22:19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

Tongues along with every other revelatory gift had come to an end.. So...:-) We are still left with those three chapters in 1Corinthians.. why are they there....Does God still have a purpose for them??? Let me suggest one.:-)

In the Garden of Eden God created many trees, many of which bore fruit which was good to eat..all of those trees Adam and eve were permitted to eat. Nothing was lacking for them, there was abundance aplenty to completely satisfy their needs....But God also planted another tree, and commanded them not to eat of it....all the others they could eat of, but not that one. ....it was a test.....will you obey me and be satisfied with what I have given you to enjoy...or will you disobey and seek that thing I have denied you. Adam failed the test, disobeyed God, and the human race fell into destruction..

In the midst of the new testament, there are three little chapters prominently displaying "tongues". So many other things in the bible God has given to us to enjoy. We are lacking nothing, everything we need is amply provided for us...But there is that one thing in 1Cor 12-14 that according to Revelations 22:18-19 that is denied the church. Is it a test??? I believe it is, and the Church has failed the test... They have eaten the forbidden fruit, and and the destruction resulting has spread across the church world...

1Co 14:21 In the law it is written, With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people; and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the Lord.
1Co 14:22 Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe.

blueheron32

EnterHisPresence

01-10-2006, 06:43 PM

Blue,

Reading this particular post of yours, has made me so sad. Sad, because there are so many people dieing and going to hell because so many people in the church believes just as you do...that the gifts and manifestations of the Holy Ghost were done away with. Is it any wonder why so many people are turning to witchcraft, yoga, and other New Age teachings? If it's true that there is no more power available to the Christian believers then that means that there is no more LIFE worth living as a Christian.
In your proclomation that it all ended with the last of the Apostles, then I guess the way the 1st Century church that was still living just all of a sudden stopped having the miracles and the power that they had just moments before John's death. I would think they must have thought they were living a King Saul life, where God removed his annointing off of him. If you study the life of Saul you will know how he lived out the rest of his life, and how those early believers must have ended up.
Thank God, that this is not the truth!

So tell me, what do we as a church of Juesus Christ (and no I don't mean the denomination of the latter day saints) have to offer a non-believer? If the gifts are no longer available, then we have nothing to offer those that are lame, those that are hurting- emotionally or physically, those that are in such despair that they're at the point of suicide.

Let me ask you a question...what are we supposed to do with those people who are oppressed and possessed with demons. You claim that the gifts are gone, the devil and his demons didn't stop doing what they've been doing all along.

Let me give you a little background from where I was when God revealed Himself to me. I was a witch. I was a spell casting, goddess worshipping witch. I had power to heal, power to curse, to fortell the future. At the time I was a witch I didn't know that the god/goddess that I worshipped was demons. But I do now, and I want to tell you that for every counterfeit thing the devil has there is something real that is of God. God is the creator and not the devil. Satan can only warp what God has created. So if it's true that the Gifts of God are no longer relevent, then we may as well give up, because we no longer have anything to offer.

cyberemnant

01-10-2006, 07:10 PM

Enter...you addressed only part of my post. You failed to acknowledge the undeniable support I gave at the end. I hope it was not for "convenience"...

I posted:
<<<To defend what I just said, look at this: Acts 11:15 (Peter speaking) And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning.

Peter is referring to an event recorded back in Acts 10, when the Holy Spirit was poured out on the Gentiles and they spoke in tongues (Acts 10:46). Peter says that the Spirit was poured out on the Gentiles as it was on the Apostles at the beginning (When? Acts 2).>>>

There is no reason whatsoever given in God's Word for thinking that the tongues originally given somehow "changed" into some other kind.

And as for the grief my words caused your spirit...I will apologize only for the unintended anguish I may have put you through. I will not, however apologize for saying that tongues can be "faked". Are you saying that they cannot? Do not be naive, my friend...it can get you into trouble. Satan is wise beyond our comprehension. He can counterfeit much more than just tongues..."And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light." 2 Cor. 11:14.

There are modern "tongues-talking" churches, where people are practically forced to recite a redundant prayer over and over until their jaw goes numb, while the elders demand that the Holy Spirit give this person the gift of tongues. The Bible says that for everyone in the church to speak in tongues in not genuine. "do all speak with tongues?" 1 Cor. 12:30. The implied answer is emphatically "NO"! Yet you want to insist that the evidence of the Holy Spirit's indwelling presence is the gift of tongues? That would mean that every true believer would have to speak in tongues. That would totally contradict the verse I just referenced.

Plus...the modern "tongues-talking" churches convince people that they can "demand" a particual spiritual gift (in this case, tongues) and they believe the Holy Spirit will actually oblige their demands! Totally unscriptural:
"But all these (spiritual gifts) worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will."

Literally it means as the Holy Spirit wills...that is, the Holy Spirit determines which gift or gifts to give to which person. WE do not make the demand. WE are not given that right. It is the prerogative of the Holy Spirit alone.

The preceding comments are only a part of what the Bible supports to discredit the modern "tongues-talking" movement.

Please do not be tricked into giving over the control of your jaw or tongue or any part of God's temple to Satan's control by being enticed into thinking you can make demands of God.

Satan has the power to control and possess. All it takes is to believe man's word over God's Word.

cyberemnant

01-10-2006, 07:30 PM

Well, its up to you Angel, but if I were you, I would get my information and wisdom directly from God rather than comprehending the bible by yourself and through the help of others. I didn't say to any one to listen to me, but to go to and call to directly the Lord God who is alive and real. You can go directly to God and ask God to tell you the truth behind all these things I am sharing in this forum. This is my sole purpose in joining this forum, to tell everyone to go directly to the Lord God, not to me for I am commanded by the Lord not to get member of a church nor to establish my own religion, but to spread to all nations what He is teaching us.

How would you know that the bible is adulterated should you not go to and call to directly to God? How would you know the reality of the existence of God if you would not call to directly to God? How would you know the reality of all these things if God will not be the One to teach you same? H O W my brother Angel?

Bear in your mind always that the bible is not God and it is not the basis of TRUTH nor final authority of TRUTH. Only the Lord God is the basis, foundation, and final authority of TRUTH. This is absolute fact.
Adlemi...I have to believe that you don't realize what you are saying. Surely you don't believe that if a "spirit" gives you a revelation and it claims to be from God you automatically accept it? You are playing a dangerous game, my friend!

"Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world." 1 John 4:1

So then, how are we supposed to discern between the genuine revelations of God and counterfeit revelations from Satan? There has to be a standard by which to test all revelation.
"To the law and to the testimony (God's Word, the Holy Bible): if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light (truth) in them." Isa.8:20

All revelation must be tested by God's Word. If any "spirit" speaks or reveals anything at all contrary to what God has already revealed in His Word, it is demonic and should not be accepted.

In the Garden of Eden, the first step toward sin was taken when Even began to doubt God's Word. He said "You will surely die". Satan said "You won't die" Eve doubted God's Word and instantly weakened her allegience to her Creator. Next step? Total deception...sin...death.

Beware, my friend. Trust in God's Word!

lovetowrite76

01-10-2006, 08:52 PM

This is all interesting, but a person with an experience is never at the mercy of a person with an argument... If you have received the Holy Ghost speaking in tongues, as I have, you KNOW that is of God, not Satan, and it's the most amazing and wonderful experience you'll ever have in this life.

April

bumface

01-10-2006, 08:58 PM

god speaks through my ass, he says a load of crap!:LOL :-p :p :r :-D :)

cyberemnant

01-10-2006, 11:11 PM

No, April, but you are at the mercy of God's established Word...you are under its scrutiny.

Sometimes experience is the WORST teacher.

And anything of a spiritual nature that we have experienced MUST line up with the Word of God, otherwise we are being deceived.

Illegal drugs used to give me what I thought was "the most amazing and wonderful experience you'll ever have in this life." Did that make them from God?

No, my friend, feelings and emotions are no test for the spirits.

You are putting the cart before the horse by first taking an experience and accepting that it is of God and then trying to prove that conclusion from the Bible. That is totally backwards and deadly.

You must first learn what the Bible says about the experience and then test your experience by the Word to see if it agrees.

If it does not agree....then reject the experience as either rampant emotionalism (loud repetitive musical rythms can cause this)...or wishful thinking.

cyberemnant

01-10-2006, 11:14 PM

Bumface, you are at least off to a good start (acknowledging God exists) but you are playing with fire when you don't know the power of God.

He made you....He can snuff you out in a heartbeat.

Beware.

germanJoy

01-11-2006, 04:50 AM

Well guys, (Enter, Blue, Cyber, and all) balance, balance, balance! :-)

I am not a compromiser but I am the one who WANTS to see the whole picture and balance it! Well by this I mean not just the physical condition of believers SPEAKING IN TONQUES and believers NOT SPEAKING IN TONQUES but also the spiritual truth of God's Word.

The problems started (on one hand) when the believers were FORCED to receive the gift and (on the other hand) when the believers were told that the gift is EVIL. And according to God's word, both are incorrect. Take the GOSPEL IN FULL and nothing can go wrong, not half not partly.

One cannot FORCE a gift, it is FREELY given and FREELY received. And NOT ALL are gifted with tonques. All do not speak with tonques, do they? 1 Cor. 12:30

The gift of tonques is GIVEN by the Holy Spirit and only He as the Giver HAS THE SAY who has it and who doesn't have it. Even Paul just could wish ALL to speak in tonques but it was not the case. Now I (Paul) wish that you ALL spoke in tonques, but even more that you would prophesy.... 1 Cor. 14:5 By the way, it should be a settled issue that TONQUES SHOULD NOT BE FORBIDDEN (because it is from the Holy Spirit). Therefore my brethren, desire earnestly to prophesy, AND DO NOT FORBID TO SPEAK IN TONQUES. 1 Cor. 14:39. I can imagine Paul had to instruct this because SOME BELIEVERS who did not receive the tonques felt uncomfortable and wanted to forbid it coz they thought they are not given favor by the Holy Spirit. But they were wrong, the Holy Spirit was dwelling in them even though they were not gifted with tonques.

It is correct to say that satan can counterfeit the GIFTS of the Holy Spirit but that does not STOP the Holy Spirit in giving His gifts to the body of Christ. :-)

By the way, Blue, THE WORDS OF THE PROPHECY OF THIS BOOK (REVELATION) was clearly specified as one which no man should add not teachings on tonques or anything like that. Generally speaking, PROPHECIES have to be taken AS IS and should not be added.

Rev 22:18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:
Rev 22:19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

XxMC13xX

01-11-2006, 08:11 AM

cyberemnant

01-11-2006, 08:24 AM

GermanJoy...

I for one do not believe anyone can be FORCED to receive a gift, either a genuine spiritual gift from God or a counterfeit from Satan. It requires an act of the will. But there are people that are being taught things concerning tongues and the working of the Holy Spirit that are contrary to God's Word.

Once a person begins to doubt God's Word and begins to believe something contrary, that person's resolve to test the truth is weakened. That is where the danger begins...the person is now beginning to submit their will to some other power, but not the power of God. Satan can easily slip in at that point, although some people refuse to believe that it's that easy.

Remember Peter in Matthew 16? He had just finished saying to Jesus in verse 16: "Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God." And the Lord replied that the Father had revealed that truth to him. But continue reading on through verse 23. WOW! Jesus rebukes Satan, who already had begun to influence Peter against the Lord! All Peter did was challenge the Word of God & almost immediately Satan was able to get a foothold on Peter!

It is a very dangerous game people are playing when they first demand a particular gift from God (which is unscriptural to do) and then follow a man-made routine of repeating a prayer over and over and over again ("But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions"...to do so is unacceptable to God)...and then when they lose control of their tongue because some unseen force is directing its utterances, the person automatically gives God the credit!

It cannot be of God because it openly violates the Word of God. Period.

cyberemnant

01-11-2006, 08:30 AM

Hi MC...

OneJoe was actually asking if tongues is a method God uses to speak THROUGH us.....not TO us.

Maybe you misunderstood the question.

Then, maybe not......if you are referring to God speaking TO us through someone else who has received the gift of tongues.

Is that what you meant? Maybe I'm the one who misunderstood you post.

germanJoy

01-11-2006, 01:28 PM

Cyber, I did not claim that a gift can be forced to be received, I said: the believers were FORCED to receive the gift . To further explain my point, I also said: One cannot FORCE a gift, it is FREELY given and FREELY received. And NOT ALL are gifted with tonques.

The point is that since there is a forcing activity involved in the baptism of the Holy Spirit towards a believer, the recipient is forced to murmur words that becomes unnatural coming from the mind (not necessarily from the evil spirit). If we read in the book of Acts how the believers were baptized by the Holy Spirit, no big efforts were done by the Apostles, the Holy Spirit powerfully came and filled them with the gift.

Keep in mind that Peter was indwelt (not filled yet) by the Holy Spirit when he received the revelation of Christ, when he (influenced by the devil) wanted to hinder Christ's sufferings, and when he (ruled by fear and by the flesh) denied Christ three times. After Pentecost, he was changed totally when he received the in-filling of the Holy Spirit. From that time onwards, Satan and his cohorts had no longer control over Peter when he received POWER from on high. His fruits became evident then. Fruits are the only basis in determining whether one is of God or not AND NOT tonques or gifts of the Holy Spirit. Why? because Satan can counterfeit the gifts but not the FRUITS of the Holy Spirit. Oh, by the way, do you know that the satanists (those worshipping Satan) are also speaking in tonques "fluently" and they are not murmuring at all?

OneJoe

01-11-2006, 02:29 PM

Obviously, I already have my beliefs on tongues since after all, I spent most of my life around tongues; however, I believe the tongues movement today does deserve attention the same as other things. Now the prior question about God speaking through us in tongues was asked because that was never taught in my Grandmothers Pentecostal church. It was only taught that tongues was us praying to God. Though I have heard many things in other Pentecostal churches. So, here is another question for others to discuss.

If "speaking in tongues" is seemingly SO important today, and we can plainly see it is, why is there no record of it in religious or secular history between its occurence in Corinth and 1900 A.D.?

Just wondering what the answer will be to this question. I find it strange that the gift of tongues just seemed to vanish for a long time, just to suddenly reappear again as the original gift from God. After all, the same thing applies to prophecy (additional revelation). An additional word from God besides the bible was uncommon before 1900A.D., as was the tongues movement. Now, we have tongues spreading like a wild grass fire, and people popping up all over the place claiming God is speaking to them outside the bible. Some say Take Heed.....perhaps today is the time to take heed.

Robert

01-12-2006, 12:07 AM

EnterHisPresence.

I have already mentioned Is 28:11 and others, if you don’t wish to believe it, that’s up to you. I will answer the other two points you quote namely 1 Cor 14:2-4 and 1 Cor 12:10

I Cor 14:2 "For he that speaketh in an [unknown] tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries."

Interestingly the word tongue in Strong's Greek dictionary is # 1100. "Glossa, gloce-sah'; a language, (the language or dialect used by a particular people distinct from that of other nations) ie. English, German, Spanish etc. So instantly we see that this is not babbling or strange utterances, but understandable speech,….. a language.
So the next obvious question is, if this is a language why do men not understand what is being said,…Because Paul is saying, if you go out and speak in a place where everyone is of another language then only God would understand;….In other words if your native tongue is English, chances are someone from China wont understand a word you say, it would be a mystery to him, the language you are speaking is unknown to him….It is only God and the Spirit of God that understands all languages.

Cor 14:3 "But he that prophesieth speaketh unto me to edification, and exhortation, and comfort."

The only reason for your teaching and prophesying in the first place is to build men up in the faith, to exhort them to live a better life, and to give comfort where it is needed. The words that you are teaching are the Words of Almighty God. It is not something that you have made up, but words that come from His Word and given under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit.

I Cor 14:4 "He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifeth himself; but he that prophesieth edifieth the church."

Again, if I went to China and taught this chapter in English, where no one knows the English language, the only one that would be built up by what I said would be me. However, if I went to a church that spoke English and taught in the English language the entire church would be edified or built up by the same words.

I Cor 14:5 "I would that ye all spake with tongues, but rather that ye prophesied: for greater is he that prophesieth than he that speaketh with tongues, except he interpret, that the church may receive edifying."

Paul is saying that he wished that all of his brethren there in Corinth could speak in as many languages as he did. But he would rather they be gifted teachers in the Word of God, than multi linguists unable to teach at all. In other words, if someone that teaches under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit desires to teach in another tongue, do it with the same fervour that you would in your native tongue. If you cannot do this, then find an interpreter that is also filled with the Spirit of God, and have him interpret for you so that the church may receive the edifying when they hear you.

Oops went one verse to far. Ok lets take a look at 1 Cor 12:10

Cor 12:10 "To another the working of miracles, to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues, to another the interpretation of tongues:"

These are the gifts of the Holy Spirit as you well know but I’m sure your only interested in divers kinds of tongues,…..Sorry to disappoint you, but the definition for tongues here is still the same…..languages.
It just means some are gifted with the ability to speak and understand more than one; sometimes many languages, fluently. Without this gift the great commission would be impossible.
You say….“There are 2 kinds of tongues...one is a special prayer language for a single believer for self edification 1 Cor 14:2-4 and (2) for public exhortation 1 Cor 12:10 which also requires interpretation, also in vs 10.”
We have just looked at 1 Cor 14:2-4 I don’t see where there is any mention of a special prayer language and Cor 12:10 is pretty well self explanatory.
Now whether you believe the interpretation I have given you or not, is entirely up to you, but these are not two different tongues. Clearly Paul is talking about languages, certainly not babbling or strange utterances.
When the "cloven tongue" Acts 2:3 " goes out in all directions it is understood with clarity no matter what language you are in,…. and by the way the true Holy Spirit will be heard again soon, by all, as stated in Mk 13:11.
1 Cor 14 has nothing to do with the kind of "speaking in tongues" your alluding too. Paul is explaining the importance of preaching with clarity and understanding, not the babble and confusion that many churches are doing today, There will be an awesome price to pay for mocking the Holy Spirit, and claiming something came from God's Spirit, when it did not; and the Greek text makes this clear.

Robert.

germanJoy

01-12-2006, 05:09 AM

If "speaking in tongues" is seemingly SO important today, and we can plainly see it is, why is there no record of it in religious or secular history between its occurence in Corinth and 1900 A.D.?

I won't say that the last occurrence of tonques was in Corinth until 1900, I would say until the church was WITNESSING by the POWER of the Holy Spirit. Obviously, the tonques ceased when the church began to WITNESS by the SWORD of the Inquisitors making CHRISTIANITY a must to the world or they die by the sword. From then onwards until 1900, the WITNESSING of God's Word became powerful again of which most of us here are PRODUCTS of it.

Take note that the Apostles and their followers WERE NOT ALLOWED to witness to the world WITHOUT the BAPTISM of the Holy Spirit. They were instructed by Jesus to WAIT until they are in-filled by the POWER of the Holy Spirit the manifestation of which was SPEAKING IN TONQUES.

and He (Jesus) said to them: "Thus it is written that the Christ should suffer and rise again from the dead the third day; and that repentance for forgiveness of sins should be proclaimed in His name to all the nations, beginning from Jerusalem. You are WITNESSES of these things. And behold, I am sending forth the promise of My Father upon you; BUT YOU ARE TO STAY IN THE CITY UNTIL YOU ARE CLOTHED WITH POWER FROM ON HIGH."

If the Apostles and their followers themselves NEED TO BE IN-FILLED with POWER from on high, what makes you think that we don't? ALL THE MORE, we need the power of the Holy Spirit to be WITNESSES of Christ to all nations. Without it, we are helpless and doing things on our own! :-(

germanJoy

01-12-2006, 05:22 AM

I won't say that the last occurrence of tonques was in Corinth until 1900, I would say until the church was WITNESSING by the POWER of the Holy Spirit. Obviously, the tonques ceased when the church began to WITNESS by the SWORD of the Inquisitors making CHRISTIANITY a must to the world or they die by the sword. From then onwards until 1900, the WITNESSING of God's Word became powerful again of which most of us here are PRODUCTS of it.

Take note that the Apostles and their followers WERE NOT ALLOWED to witness to the world WITHOUT the BAPTISM of the Holy Spirit. They were instructed by Jesus to WAIT until they are in-filled by the POWER of the Holy Spirit the manifestation of which was SPEAKING IN TONQUES.

and He (Jesus) said to them: "Thus it is written that the Christ should suffer and rise again from the dead the third day; and that repentance for forgiveness of sins should be proclaimed in His name to all the nations, beginning from Jerusalem. You are WITNESSES of these things. And behold, I am sending forth the promise of My Father upon you; BUT YOU ARE TO STAY IN THE CITY UNTIL YOU ARE CLOTHED WITH POWER FROM ON HIGH."

If the Apostles and their followers themselves NEED TO BE IN-FILLED with POWER from on high, what makes you think that we don't? ALL THE MORE, we need the power of the Holy Spirit to be WITNESSES of Christ to all nations. Without it, we are helpless and doing things on our own! :-(
It was only until 1900 when the WITNESSING of God's Word became powerful again of which most of us here are products of it!

IMTammyIMHis

01-12-2006, 10:44 AM

Hi.

You said, "Tongues along with every other revelatory gift had come to an end.. So... We are still left with those three chapters in 1Corinthians.. why are they there....Does God still have a purpose for them??? Let me suggest one."

This assessment reminds me of another story.....

I know a man who says that since the bible is complete and Jesus took care of everything; that there is no need to tithe our firstfruits to God anymore. No need to give Him what is rightfully His in the first place...his main focus was on the monetary tithe.

So, he doesn't give anything to The Lord in that area. He also keeps on with this assessment and tells others this.

Then, I see that he is the first in line going to the church for financial help when in trouble.

Hmmmmm......kind of a strange assessment indeed.

IF it weren't for believers who understand why God asks us for the firstfruits of all we have and actually give to Him through the church (opposite of this brothers assessment); this brother wouldn't have anything to help take care of his needs; would he?

God will provide through and to His listening, believing and trusting children and this principal of His never changes....only the situations do.

Sometimes we use our understanding of things when indeed He tells us not to lean on our understanding. We are to seek His.

PTL.

YSIC,
Tammy

blueheron32

01-12-2006, 06:52 PM

enter his presence...

"So tell me, what do we as a church of Juesus Christ (and no I don't mean the denomination of the latter day saints) have to offer a non-believer? If the gifts are no longer available, then we have nothing to offer those that are lame, those that are hurting- emotionally or physically, those that are in such despair that they're at the point of suicide.

Let me ask you a question...what are we supposed to do with those people who are oppressed and possessed with demons. You claim that the gifts are gone, the devil and his demons didn't stop doing what they've been doing all along.

Let me give you a little background from where I was when God revealed Himself to me. I was a witch. I was a spell casting, goddess worshipping witch. I had power to heal, power to curse, to fortell the future. At the time I was a witch I didn't know that the god/goddess that I worshipped was demons. But I do now, and I want to tell you that for every counterfeit thing the devil has there is something real that is of God. God is the creator and not the devil. Satan can only warp what God has created. So if it's true that the Gifts of God are no longer relevent, then we may as well give up, because we no longer have anything to offer."

Enterhispresence...I do not believe the gifts of the spirit have ended, I believe the manifestation of them has changed. Gods people still speak with new tongues, tongues that once poured out blasphemy and cursing...now speak forth the truth of the gospel... the gift of prophesy is still active in the world as every true believer declares the word of God, as circumscribed by the bible alone and in its entirety. The healing of the sick, is not seen by supernatural physical healing, but by the power of the gospel as it is applied to those God is saving. It opens spiritually blind eyes, raises the spiritually dead to life, it opens deaf ears, and gives understanding to spiritually dull minds. It opens the dumb mouth to sing forth the praises of God, it takes out a stony heart and gives a heart of flesh that can love the Lord his God.

The demons are cast out as the Holy Spirit takes residence in those being saved...The strong man was bound at the cross and Christ has plundered his house, for these many centuries. The demons cannot stand before the gospel as it has gone forth into the world conquering and to conquer.

We have much to offer enterhispresence. but we do not go with signs and wonders...we go with the Gospel of the Grace of Jesus Christ. We walk by faith and not by sight...rather a wicked and adultrous generation seeketh after a sign. We preach Jesus and him crucified.

blue

blueheron32

01-12-2006, 07:05 PM

By the way, Blue, THE WORDS OF THE PROPHECY OF THIS BOOK (REVELATION) was clearly specified as one which no man should add not teachings on tonques or anything like that. Generally speaking, PROPHECIES have to be taken AS IS and should not be added.

The book of the Revelation is an integral part of the whole Bible...if you add to the book of the Revelation you add to the whole bible...if you take away from the book of the Revelation you take away from the whole Bible. The Book of the Revelation is not to be understood alone...it is to be understood in the light of everything else the Bible says. Revelation 22:18-19 is speaking of the whole Bible, not just the last few pages...

blueheron32

Eugenie

01-13-2006, 12:58 AM

Onejoe:

This is a tough one to explain without speaking from experience. The best I can do is to tell you to re-read I Cor.14.2.

Eugenie

germanJoy

01-13-2006, 06:03 AM

The beginning of the passage of "not to add or substract" is as follows:

Blessed is he who reads and those who hear the words of the prophecy, and heed the things which are written in it; for the time is near."Rev. 1:3

The end of the passage where "it" ended is as follows:

I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book; if anyone adds to them, God shall add to him the plagues which are written in this book; and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part from the tree of life and from the holy city, which are written in this book. Rev. 22:18-19

I am not claiming that we may add or substract the scriptures written on the rest of the bible, may it never be! I am only saying that the plagues and taking away from the tree of life is applied to anyone who adds or subtracts to the book of Revelation. Because it is clearly written there!

We may teach certain topics and by it add some knowledge during our exposition to the other books of the bible but not the revelation. This is the only book where we are not supposed to TRY TO EXPLAIN THE CONTEXT BY OUR OWN IMAGINATION AND MAKE TEACHINGS OUT OF IT endangering the addition and subtraction of it. That means we have to take the words of the prophecy AS IT IS WRITTEN. I hope this output brings clarification, my friend. :-)