Faith w/out God's word?

[OneJoe]

Romans 10:17
So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

I often hear everyday so many people say they believe,have faith, or a relationship with Christ. These same people also claim not to read God's word. Can we really have faith w/out God's word? Can we really grow w/out reading? This question is not so much for debate since many know the answer to this, but only to provoke thought for those who might read this, but don't read God's word.

Hosea 4:6
My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: because thou hast rejected knowledge, I will also reject thee, that thou shalt be no priest to me: seeing thou hast forgotten the law of thy God, I will also forget thy children.

Romans 2:11 For there is no respect of persons with God.
Romans 2:12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law

Psalm 119:105
Thy word is a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path.

How long can we put off God's word before it's too late?

[zarxs]

Bravo!!!

However much a person can grow without reading the Bible so much more can they grow with it.

However much a person can grow without Fellowship in Christ, so much more can they grow with it.

Christians are meant to spend time with Christ in Prayer, reading the Bible and in fellowship to see the Lord though others lives.

Reading the Bible gives a tree deeper roots. Without those roots how are we to weather the storms to come?

[lovetowrite76]

We should also hide the word in our heart, so when we look at the world around us, we have the Word of God in our mind as a filter. I find that even when I'm not reading the Bible on a regular basis, the Word that is in my heart and mind is readily available throughout the day... My point being... it's more than just reading... it's taking it to heart, literally... Hope that made sense...

April

[Potters House]

Jesus is the WORD. If you know the Word, you know Jesus. In order to know the Word, you must read it. From Genesis to Revelation. Its not enough for someone else to tell you who he is, you have to KNOW him. And to do that , you must read for yourself. Its a personal thing. You can KNOW him, by reading the Word. And if you KNOW him, because the Word is written on your heart, you will never hear him say, I never KNEW you. Because, if you KNOW him, He will KNOW you.

[New_Wineskin]

Romans 10:17
So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

I often hear everyday so many people say they believe,have faith, or a relationship with Christ. These same people also claim not to read God's word. Can we really have faith w/out God's word? Can we really grow w/out reading? This question is not so much for debate since many know the answer to this, but only to provoke thought for those who might read this, but don't read God's word.

Hosea 4:6
My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: because thou hast rejected knowledge, I will also reject thee, that thou shalt be no priest to me: seeing thou hast forgotten the law of thy God, I will also forget thy children.

Romans 2:11 For there is no respect of persons with God.
Romans 2:12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law

Psalm 119:105
Thy word is a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path.

How long can we put off God's word before it's too late?

The term "word of god" in that passage in Romans is not referring to the Scriptures . In fact , in much of that letter , Paul seperates faith and the Law ( a huge part of the Scriptures ) . Also , he says that faith comes by hearing and not by reading or by hearing someone else reading . faith comes by hearing the Spirit - not in reading the Law ( ie the Scriptures ) .

Can one grow without the Scriptures ? Well , Abraham had none and he was referred to by Paul in Romans as our father in faith . Abraham believed with no Scriptures and the Lord called him His friend . David only had the Law and the Lord called him a man after His heart . If your interpretation of that passage in Psalms is correct , the only Scriptures needed would be the Law as that is the portion of the Scriptures being referred to by that passage . That is ... *if* you are correct .

[OneJoe]

The term "word of god" in that passage in Romans is not referring to the Scriptures . In fact , in much of that letter , Paul seperates faith and the Law ( a huge part of the Scriptures ) . Also , he says that faith comes by hearing and not by reading or by hearing someone else reading . faith comes by hearing the Spirit - not in reading the Law ( ie the Scriptures ) .

Can one grow without the Scriptures ? Well , Abraham had none and he was referred to by Paul in Romans as our father in faith . Abraham believed with no Scriptures and the Lord called him His friend . David only had the Law and the Lord called him a man after His heart . If your interpretation of that passage in Psalms is correct , the only Scriptures needed would be the Law as that is the portion of the Scriptures being referred to by that passage . That is ... *if* you are correct .
New Wineskin, I disagree. The word of God is indeed speaking of the scriptures. Verse 15 speaks of those that preach the Gospel and verse 18 talks about the word going into all the earth and ends of the world. Our faith does come by the word of God (i.e. Scriptures) when the Holy Spirit applies the word to our heart. Also, you mentioned Abraham, but now God also spoke directly to Abraham on occasions. If God spoke directly to people today as he did in the Old Testament, i'm sure we would have a few more believers..:-)

Also, I'm not sure why you think that "word" in Ps 119:105 would imply only those portion of the scriptures. The complete bible is the word of God. It is our promise from God, both old and new.

Onejoe




Jam 1:25 But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.

[New_Wineskin]

New Wineskin, I disagree. The word of God is indeed speaking of the scriptures. Verse 15 speaks of those that preach the Gospel and verse 18 talks about the word going into all the earth and ends of the world. Our faith does come by the word of God (i.e. Scriptures) when the Holy Spirit applies the word to our heart. Also, you mentioned Abraham, but now God also spoke directly to Abraham on occasions. If God spoke directly to people today as he did in the Old Testament, i'm sure we would have a few more believers..:-)

Also, I'm not sure why you think that "word" in Ps 119:105 would imply only those portion of the scriptures. The complete bible is the word of God. It is our promise from God, both old and new.

Onejoe

Of course , you disagree . That tradition has been handed down for quite some time . People buy it hook , line , and sinker . It is one thing to *call* the Scriptures "the word of God" . It is quite another to use that term and insert then only use that definition when reading the Scriptures . It is circular reasoning .

The Scriptures use the term "the word" or "the word of God" for many things . Context determines to what they are referring . Saying that the Scriptures ( plural ) is "the word of God" singular makes no sense . In the newer writings ( what people usually call the "New Testament" , the term "word of God" is almost exclusively ( if not exclusively ) talking about the Gospel ( not to be confused with writings that people call "the Gospels" ) . Faith comes from hearing the Lord and not the Law ( ie the Scriptures ) .

[New_Wineskin]

Edited version of last post - it came after the 5 minute time limit .

New Wineskin, I disagree. The word of God is indeed speaking of the scriptures. Verse 15 speaks of those that preach the Gospel and verse 18 talks about the word going into all the earth and ends of the world. Our faith does come by the word of God (i.e. Scriptures) when the Holy Spirit applies the word to our heart. Also, you mentioned Abraham, but now God also spoke directly to Abraham on occasions. If God spoke directly to people today as he did in the Old Testament, i'm sure we would have a few more believers..:-)

Also, I'm not sure why you think that "word" in Ps 119:105 would imply only those portion of the scriptures. The complete bible is the word of God. It is our promise from God, both old and new.

Onejoe

Of course , you disagree . That tradition has been handed down for quite some time . People buy it hook , line , and sinker . It is one thing to *call* the Scriptures "the word of God" . It is quite another to use that term and insert then only use that definition when reading the Scriptures . It is circular reasoning .

The Scriptures use the term "the word" or "the word of God" for many things ( one is Jesus ) . Context determines to what they are referring . Saying that all of the Scriptures ( plural ) is "the word of God" ( singular ) makes no sense . In the newer writings ( what people usually call the "New Testament" ) , the term "word of God" is almost exclusively ( if not exclusively ) talking about the Gospel ( not to be confused with writings that people call "the Gospels" ) . Faith comes from hearing the Lord and not the Law ( ie the Scriptures ) .

[OneJoe]

Edited version of last post - it came after the 5 minute time limit .



Of course , you disagree . That tradition has been handed down for quite some time . People buy it hook , line , and sinker . It is one thing to *call* the Scriptures "the word of God" . It is quite another to use that term and insert then only use that definition when reading the Scriptures . It is circular reasoning .

The Scriptures use the term "the word" or "the word of God" for many things ( one is Jesus ) . Context determines to what they are referring . Saying that all of the Scriptures ( plural ) is "the word of God" ( singular ) makes no sense . In the newer writings ( what people usually call the "New Testament" ) , the term "word of God" is almost exclusively ( if not exclusively ) talking about the Gospel ( not to be confused with writings that people call "the Gospels" ) . Faith comes from hearing the Lord and not the Law ( ie the Scriptures ) .
New Wine you claim that the "word" is sometimes referred to as Christ, not the scriptures? Yes the word is refered to as Christ and some times referrs specifically to the writings; however the scriptures or inspired writings of God(word or words of God) are Christ.

In the beginning was the word, and the word was with God and the word was God..John 1:1

1Jo 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.
..................................
Jam 1:21 Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word which is able to save your souls.

This is a great verse here. Engrafted means implanted. If you read the chapter, you will see the context of this scripture is referring to the writings, scriptures, of God and our obedience according to the scriptures. Notice that scripture says "which is able to save your souls". Only Christ can save us, but because the word(S) is Christ and Christ is the word(S), this makes sense.
.....................................
Mat 4:4 “But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word(scriptures) that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.”

.............................................

1Jo 1:10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word(Christ & Truth of Scriptures) is not in us.
..............................................


So I realize what your saying and we should realize the context of "word", but it does not change the fact that Christ is the word of God. He is the inspired word or words that we read in the scriptures.


Onejoe

[TheTreeOfLife]

"word" from Romans 10:17
strongs:
rhēma
hray'-mah
From G4483; an utterance (individually, collectively or specifically); by implication a matter or topic (especially of narration, command or dispute); with a negative naught whatever: - + evil, + nothing, saying, word.

rhēma
Thayer Definition:
1) that which is or has been uttered by the living voice, thing spoken, word
1a) any sound produced by the voice and having definite meaning
1b) speech, discourse
1b1) what one has said
1c) a series of words joined together into a sentence (a declaration of one’s mind made in words)
1c1) an utterance
1c2) a saying of any sort as a message, a narrative
1c2a) concerning some occurrence
2) subject matter of speech, thing spoken of
2a) so far forth as it is a matter of narration
2b) so far as it is a matter of command
2c) a matter of dispute, case at law
Part of Speech: noun neuter


Clearly what Paul is speaking to is the preaching of the Gospel. Faith comes from this message of Christ Jesus. One very good example would be...

Act 8:27 And having gotten up, he went. And look! A man, an Ethiopian, an eunuch [i.e., a man incapable of having sex], a court official of Candace the queen of [the] Ethiopians, who was over all her treasury, who had come to Jerusalem to prostrate himself in worship,
Act 8:28 and he was returning and sitting in his chariot, and he was reading aloud the prophet Isaiah.

Act 8:30b "So do you understand what you are reading?"
Act 8:31 Then he said, "For how could I unless someone guides me?" And he invited Philip, having come up, to sit with him.

Act 8:35 Then Philip, having opened his mouth and having begun from this Scripture, proclaimed the Gospel [about] Jesus to him.

Simply reading the scriptures is not going to give you faith. The Holy Spirit must work in your heart and give you ears and eyes to see, and a messenger is often deployed to explain the Gospel of the Lord Jesus.

Notably, this is how the scriptures well known to the apostles was explained to them by our Lord as he walked with them. We cannot simply say to someone, "read the bible and then you'll understand".

[New_Wineskin]

New Wine you claim that the "word" is sometimes referred to as Christ, not the scriptures? Yes the word is refered to as Christ and some times referrs specifically to the writings; however the scriptures or inspired writings of God(word or words of God) are Christ.
[quote]

Once again , "word" is singular - the Scriptures are more than one . The term does not fit .

[quote]
In the beginning was the word, and the word was with God and the word was God..John 1:1


Yes . This does not mention the Scriptures . In fact , it couldn't since Paul specifically mentions that the Law ( the Scriptures written by Moses ) only came into existance 400 years after Abraham . So , this "word" that was in the beginning was *not* the Scriptures . It could be stated that the word is the gospel . But , not the Scriptures . The Scriptures were written long after the beginning .



1Jo 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.
..................................
Jam 1:21 Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word which is able to save your souls.


These passages do not mention the Scriptures .



This is a great verse here. Engrafted means implanted. If you read the chapter, you will see the context of this scripture is referring to the writings, scriptures, of God and our obedience according to the scriptures. Notice that scripture says "which is able to save your souls". Only Christ can save us, but because the word(S) is Christ and Christ is the word(S), this makes sense.


Now you are discussing observing the Law to obtain righteousness . The Law is a part of the Scriptures - obeying them for salvation is to obtain righteousness .



.....................................
Mat 4:4 “But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word(scriptures) that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.”


The very fact that it is in the present tense and saying proceeding from His mouth and daily , it is not discussing the Scriptures but hearing His voice .



.............................................

1Jo 1:10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word(Christ & Truth of Scriptures) is not in us.
..............................................


The Scriptures are not in us . This passage says nothing about the Scriptures .



So I realize what your saying and we should realize the context of "word", but it does not change the fact that Christ is the word of God. He is the inspired word or words that we read in the scriptures.


I don't worship paper and ink . Jesus existed before paper or ink existed . Jesus cannot be contained in a set of writings . He is much bigger than that .

Abraham believed without writings . He believed when he heard the Lord .

[New_Wineskin]

"word" from Romans 10:17
strongs:
rhēma
hray'-mah
From G4483; an utterance (individually, collectively or specifically); by implication a matter or topic (especially of narration, command or dispute); with a negative naught whatever: - + evil, + nothing, saying, word.

rhēma
Thayer Definition:
1) that which is or has been uttered by the living voice, thing spoken, word
1a) any sound produced by the voice and having definite meaning
1b) speech, discourse
1b1) what one has said
1c) a series of words joined together into a sentence (a declaration of one’s mind made in words)
1c1) an utterance
1c2) a saying of any sort as a message, a narrative
1c2a) concerning some occurrence
2) subject matter of speech, thing spoken of
2a) so far forth as it is a matter of narration
2b) so far as it is a matter of command
2c) a matter of dispute, case at law
Part of Speech: noun neuter


Clearly what Paul is speaking to is the preaching of the Gospel. Faith comes from this message of Christ Jesus. One very good example would be...

Act 8:27 And having gotten up, he went. And look! A man, an Ethiopian, an eunuch [i.e., a man incapable of having sex], a court official of Candace the queen of [the] Ethiopians, who was over all her treasury, who had come to Jerusalem to prostrate himself in worship,
Act 8:28 and he was returning and sitting in his chariot, and he was reading aloud the prophet Isaiah.

Act 8:30b "So do you understand what you are reading?"
Act 8:31 Then he said, "For how could I unless someone guides me?" And he invited Philip, having come up, to sit with him.

Act 8:35 Then Philip, having opened his mouth and having begun from this Scripture, proclaimed the Gospel [about] Jesus to him.

Simply reading the scriptures is not going to give you faith. The Holy Spirit must work in your heart and give you ears and eyes to see, and a messenger is often deployed to explain the Gospel of the Lord Jesus.

Notably, this is how the scriptures well known to the apostles was explained to them by our Lord as he walked with them. We cannot simply say to someone, "read the bible and then you'll understand".

That is pretty much what I consider . :)

[OneJoe]

New Wineskin, I do not worship paper and ink either; however, the scriptures, not the ink and paper, are the inspired word of God. You said that the "word" could be the Gospel, but the Gospel is not the scriptures.

What exactly did the apostles preach? Is it not what we have in writing today? The apostles preached the "word" (singular form) and this was called the Gospel.

From what I see in your posts, you are not refuting what I am saying, but rather showing that you have rejected the scriptures in every way you can possibly think of. You have turned away the Gospel (good message) of God. You must be waiting to hear God speak in your ear, waiting for him to speak directly to you by revelation as he did the prophets of the Old Testament. Keep waiting on whatever it is that your waiting on; meanwhile, I will put my trust in the bible, the complete and perfect word of God that the apostles preached and so shall God's people do today.

Pro 28:9 He that turneth away his ear from hearing the law, even his prayer shall be abomination.

Onejoe

[New_Wineskin]

From what I see in your posts, you are not refuting what I am saying, but rather showing that you have rejected the scriptures in every way you can possibly think of. You have turned away the Gospel (good message) of God.

These are outright lies . I disagree with your doctrine and your only recourse is to slander me . You could have chosen to discuss instead of making personal attacks . The least that you could have done was to not even write to me or place me on ignore since I am so evil .

You know for a fact that I wrote absolutely nothing against the Scriptures . I have nothing but respect for them .

Since you have shown yourself to be a liar , I am placing you on the ignore list provided by this board .

Edited : I see that you are a moderator and can attack with no consequences .

I shall then leave *your* board .

[OneJoe]

These are outright lies . I disagree with your doctrine and your only recourse is to slander me . You could have chosen to discuss instead of making personal attacks . The least that you could have done was to not even write to me or place me on ignore since I am so evil .

You know for a fact that I wrote absolutely nothing against the Scriptures . I have nothing but respect for them .

Since you have shown yourself to be a liar , I am placing you on the ignore list provided by this board .

Edited : I see that you are a moderator and can attack with no consequences .

I shall then leave *your* board .
Yes I know you disagree and you can call it slander however I call it an observation since your posts did not contain scriptures and when scriptures were posted, they were said to not be the Gospel or word of God. Also, I did discuss it with you and that is how i drew my conclusion..:-)

Also, I did not say you said anything against the scriptures. I said you have rejected them which I suppose would in one way be against the scriptures. Also, I have known muslims and buddhists to say they respect the scriptures but they did not believe they were the word of God and no I am not saying you are a muslim or buddhist either. I am just making a point..:-)

One final note. My being a moderator is beside the point. If I break the rules of this chat board, I too can be removed just as quick. Also, you said I have shown myself to be a liar, that basically i'm wrong about you? Well New Wine, I pray I am wrong. I would rather be wrong about you than to be right because if I am right then have rejected his word as being the Gospel of God.

Onejoe