Who did Christ die for?

[OneJoe]

I would amagine this will be a controversial question, but I will ask and see how others view this topic.

Who did Christ die for?

Now the question is not whether God loves everyone, but only did he die for everyone or just the believers?

Also, this topic is not about how we became believers ie freewill v. Predestination, though this can be discussed to substaniate your point.
This topic is being asked because I don't recall it being discussed on this board and I see a few new members..:-)

I have heard some say Christ died for everyone....simple example often used is John3:16 "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life."

However....

I have also seen Ephesians 5:25 "Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church(believers), and gave himself for IT;Eph 5:26 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word, Eph 5:27 That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish."

Now, i realize John3:16 says world; however, I have also noticed it says "whosoever believeth in him should not perish". This seems to also say he died only for those that would believe or are part of his church that he is preparing, that they would not perish. Ephesians 5:25 says he gave himself for it, being the church or believers. This does not point to his death being for everyone, but I'm posting this to see how others view this and allow others the opportunity to search the scriptures for more verses on this topic. I know you will find them..:-) May God richly bless you through our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ! :c

[zarxs]

I loved your choice of verses. I'm interpretation is that he died to give the world a chance (John 3:16) but there is a condition that condition is that they must believe in him. This might be a clearer way of saying it... Jesus mailed an invitation to every man woman and child in the world to the Eternal Party but each person still has to choose to go to the party. Additionally this would tend to support my argument of freewill, but that is a debate for another time.

[Robert]

I too am confused by the choice of verses, and Zarxs my friend, you have no idea how hard it is for me to say this….“but I actually agree with you.” ….
( just kidding.) Hope to see you at the party !

Robert.

[germanJoy]

Hi Onejoe, good to see you again :-). My short comment on this is : "Christ died for the SINNERS not for the righteous." When He said, He came for the sinners and not for the righteous, He foreknew that the righteous will deny their need of a Saviour. For this reason. Christ death will be meaningless to them, making it null and void. Just as the law is made for the law-breakers, the Saviour is sent for all sinners like you and me who need Him and believe in Him. Do I have a point? :-)

[Warrior4Truth]

Good point germanjoy....;)

[OneJoe]

Hi Onejoe, good to see you again :-). My short comment on this is : "Christ died for the SINNERS not for the righteous." When He said, He came for the sinners and not for the righteous, He foreknew that the righteous will deny their need of a Saviour. For this reason. Christ death will be meaningless to them, making it null and void. Just as the law is made for the law-breakers, the Saviour is sent for all sinners like you and me who need Him and believe in Him. Do I have a point? :-)
Hello GermanJoy, well actually I wouldn't say that is a point for a couple of reasons. First, no I would not say he died for the righteous because there is none righteous. I would agree that Christ did indeed die for the sinners; however, the question is, did he die for "all" sinners or just those that he knew before the foundation of the world would believe? Eph 1:4-5,

Also, since Eph 5:25 says he gave himself for it, being the church or believers, then these are obviously the people who did not deny Christ. Also, since God's will is over mans supposed free will, then if God willed for them to believe then they would do just that, no denying involved. If someone denies as you claim then God didn't will for that person to be saved. What God wills to happen will indeed happen in the times and seasons that he has set forth according to his eternal purpose. Now I don't mean for this to sound like a free will topic; I am merely mentioning this because a person must indeed believe and be saved by God before they are part of his church which he is preparing as a spotless bride, also why I don't see the denying Christ part on behalf of some true believers.

So I totally agree that indeed Christ died for the sinner; however, the question still remains did he die for all sinners or just those whom are dead in sins but also whom he plans to save, those that will be one of his true believers that he is "preparing" to present to himself?

Also, when I say "whom he plans to save", I am simply explaining that he must save them since we both know we can't save ourself and before this turns into a topic about choice, we both also know that scripture tells us that not everyone who says Lord Lord shall enter into the kingdom of heaven.(Mat 7:21) He chooses to save whom he will. This is only to hopefully clarify my point as to Christ dieing for some rather than all, not to establish any side or point on free will. God bless! :c

[lovetowrite76]

Acts 2:39 This promise is to you and your children. It is to all people everywhere. It is to as many as the Lord our God will call.

[OneJoe]

Very good verse lovetowrite76. That verse is very clear! It is to as many as the Lord our God will call....

He must call us and choose to save us...once again, for those whom he has predestined to call...God bless!

[Eddy]

I would amagine this will be a controversial question, but I will ask and see how others view this topic.

Who did Christ die for?

Now the question is not whether God loves everyone, but only did he die for everyone or just the believers?

Also, this topic is not about how we became believers ie freewill v. Predestination, though this can be discussed to substaniate your point.
This topic is being asked because I don't recall it being discussed on this board and I see a few new members..:-)

I have heard some say Christ died for everyone....simple example often used is John3:16 "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life."

However....

I have also seen Ephesians 5:25 "Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church(believers), and gave himself for IT;Eph 5:26 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word, Eph 5:27 That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish."

Now, i realize John3:16 says world; however, I have also noticed it says "whosoever believeth in him should not perish". This seems to also say he died only for those that would believe or are part of his church that he is preparing, that they would not perish. Ephesians 5:25 says he gave himself for it, being the church or believers. This does not point to his death being for everyone, but I'm posting this to see how others view this and allow others the opportunity to search the scriptures for more verses on this topic. I know you will find them..:-) May God richly bless you through our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ! :c
Question:

Why should John 3:16 give the statement that Christ died only for believers?
The text's saying that God gave his son because he loved the world, and that every one, who believed in him, should not perish.

Therefore I would tend to say:
When you believe in him you will not perish because (for) God gave his only begotten son.

What's so difficult in that certain scripture? (Of course it does not solve the Praedest./Freewill-problem because there are still other verses in the bible)

See John 3:36


Eckhard

[zarxs]

Onejoe, whats to say that those that God calls don't also seek him? I often think perspective isn't considered when viewing the argument. God's perspective (viewed through God's eyes) who knows past present and future versus Mans perspective viewed through the eyes of a single Christian. Both perspectives exist and would be discribed differently and I believe the Bible discribes them both that is why you see what APPEARS to be a conflict in the Bible where no conflict actually exists.

God calls us all but in him knowing the future he knows which ones will heed the call. In that way it is predestined. However he died to give us all a chance and a choice, in that way it's still freewill. That explains the verses, both perspectives represented through John 3:16 and the predest. verses I've seen posted lately.

[OneJoe]

Onejoe, whats to say that those that God calls don't also seek him? I often think perspective isn't considered when viewing the argument. God's perspective (viewed through God's eyes) who knows past present and future versus Mans perspective viewed through the eyes of a single Christian. Both perspectives exist and would be discribed differently and I believe the Bible discribes them both that is why you see what APPEARS to be a conflict in the Bible where no conflict actually exists.

God calls us all but in him knowing the future he knows which ones will heed the call. In that way it is predestined. However he died to give us all a chance and a choice, in that way it's still freewill. That explains the verses, both perspectives represented through John 3:16 and the predest. verses I've seen posted lately.
Romans 3:11
There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

I believe that answers the seeking God question....

As for the rest...I would have to see verses from God's word, not our view or opinion or our own understanding, but rather the Holy Spirit.

[OneJoe]

Question:

Why should John 3:16 give the statement that Christ died only for believers?
The text's saying that God gave his son because he loved the world, and that every one, who believed in him, should not perish.

Therefore I would tend to say:
When you believe in him you will not perish because (for) God gave his only begotten son.

What's so difficult in that certain scripture? (Of course it does not solve the Praedest./Freewill-problem because there are still other verses in the bible)

See John 3:36


Eckhard
Hello Eckhard...yes, that verse says God loved the world; hoewver, the condition is that we must believe and since God knew before the foundation of the world who would believe and who he had chosen, then that still doesn't rule out Christ dieing only for those people, but rather establishing that he did die for His people.

Matthew 1:21
And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.

[lovetowrite76]

Here's something to ponder... if God is able to KNOW all things... don't you think it's possible him for him to choose NOT to remember some things... like when we're forgiven... our sins are thrown away and forgotten... He still has the ABILITY to know what our sins were, but he chooses to forget them and throw them as far as the east is to the west, so could this be a similiar kind of knowing? That would mean we would all have an equal OPPORTUNITY of being saved even though he has the ability to KNOW in the end who chooses to believe and who doesn't... Just a thought...

As a sidenote... Why does this topic even matter? We know we are to work out our OWN salvation with fear and trembling... If you know YOU are saved, and YOU are fulfilling the great commission (spreading the gospel), what does it matter if God knows who is going to be saved and who isn't? It's really none of my concern... It's not something I can change through debate... it just IS.

April

[OneJoe]

God does know all things and as far as our sins go, all our sins will be washed away in the blood of Christ, this I'm sure we can agree on.
Isaiah 1:18
Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.

As far as your idea on opportunity goes, since God has already chosen whom he will save and whom he will not, that would rule out the idea of opportunity. However, something very important to remember is this: though God has chosen to save some and we know he has because the bible tells us this very thing(Eph 1), we must keep in mind that GOD grants faith or belief through his word (Rom 10:17); therefore, the only hope of obtaining faith is through God's word. If someone believes and truely seeks God's word, then God has called that person to do that very thing. The most well known verse such as John 3:16 even mentions "whosoever believes" and the only hope of God granting us the faith to believe is through his word. Our best hope of Salvation is to be under the hearing of God's word.

Also, to answer your final questions, I believe this topic matters because it too is part of God's word. Though it may not seem important to some, I find all of God's word relevant and profitable..:-) Not to mention, the spreading the Gospel as you mentioned is exactly what were doing here. It is very important that God's people understand that Christ died specifically for them and specifically chose them before he created anything. Last, I totally agree with you on your last statement, this is not something that can be changed through debate, but changing it is not the purpose here. The purpose is to spread the truth of what God has meant for us to know, just as with the rest of his word.

Deuteronomy 32:6
Do ye thus requite the LORD, O foolish people and unwise? is not he thy father that hath bought thee? hath he not made thee, and established thee?

[jfreak]

Everyone chooses of their own freewill whether or whether not to accept that Christ died for them. Just because they choose not to, it dose not mean He didn’t offer them the gift; it just means they chose not to accept it. That doesn’t change who He died for.

[OneJoe]

Everyone chooses of their own freewill whether or whether not to accept that Christ died for them. Just because they choose not to, it dose not mean He didn’t offer them the gift; it just means they chose not to accept it. That doesn’t change who He died for.
JFreak, if God wills someone to be saved, do they somehow have the power to "refuse" his salvation and change what he has set forth?

Same thing as I ask of everyone, do you have scriptures for your free will?

[OneVoice]

Here's something to ponder... if God is able to KNOW all things... don't you think it's possible him for him to choose NOT to remember some things... like when we're forgiven... our sins are thrown away and forgotten... He still has the ABILITY to know what our sins were, but he chooses to forget them and throw them as far as the east is to the west, so could this be a similiar kind of knowing? That would mean we would all have an equal OPPORTUNITY of being saved even though he has the ability to KNOW in the end who chooses to believe and who doesn't... Just a thought...

As a sidenote... Why does this topic even matter? We know we are to work out our OWN salvation with fear and trembling... If you know YOU are saved, and YOU are fulfilling the great commission (spreading the gospel), what does it matter if God knows who is going to be saved and who isn't? It's really none of my concern... It's not something I can change through debate... it just IS.

April

hello lovetowrite76.
When asking a question about God and what he does and doesn't do it is always good to look and see what He has said about it in His word.
You may be interested to know that God is never sirprized.
There are no secrets that anyone can keep or even have from God.
There is nothing that is ever out of His control.
and as for God having a good forgeter.. I don't know that He forgets. But He does CHOOSE not to remember.

Psalm 103:11-13 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=23&chapter=103&verse=11&end_verse=13&version=31&context=context)
11 For as high as the heavens are above the earth,
so great is his love for those who fear him;

12 as far as the east is from the west,
so far has he removed our transgressions from us. 13 As a father has compassion on his children,
so the LORD has compassion on those who fear him;

[Robert]

Hello Onejoe, Now your beginning to sound like the “one verse Rev” down the street. Why would you highlight the words “His People” as though this scripture, Matthew 1:21 substantiates your position. It is completely out of context, the Angel was merely telling Joseph that the conception of Mary through the Holy Spirit which was the fulfilment of the prophecy of Isaiah 7:14; That the long awaited Messiah was to come through Mary.
Are we not ALL God’s Children ?………“His People”…..

From the perspective of an inquisitive mind, could you please reply to the following :…Why do you think we, the human race have been established here on earth ?…… Why and for what purpose ? ….What has been God’s plan from the beginning ?….. Why did he even need a plan ?….

Robert.

[OneJoe]

Hello Onejoe, Now your beginning to sound like the “one verse Rev” down the street. Why would you highlight the words “His People” as though this scripture, Matthew 1:21 substantiates your position. It is completely out of context, the Angel was merely telling Joseph that the conception of Mary through the Holy Spirit which was the fulfilment of the prophecy of Isaiah 7:14; That the long awaited Messiah was to come through Mary.
Are we not ALL God’s Children ?………“His People”…..

From the perspective of an inquisitive mind, could you please reply to the following :…Why do you think we, the human race have been established here on earth ?…… Why and for what purpose ? ….What has been God’s plan from the beginning ?….. Why did he even need a plan ?….

Robert.
Hello Robert, before I answer your questions, I would like to also ask you to post scriptures to refute what I am saying on here. If you disagree with this topic, please post God's word to show reproof, since after all the point here is God's word.

Now, in reply to your questions, I highlight "his people" to substantiate my point indeed. The saved people of Christ are indeed his people. The unsaved are not of Christ; therefore, not his people. Also, I am well aware of the context of Mat 1:21. I am well aware of any fulfillment of prophecy etc; however, it doesn't change the point that Christ came to save his people, even as that scripture says. That is why I posted it. That scripture is quite plain that Christ came to save his people. So the question arises who are his people? Obviously it is not all of mankind, because even Christ himself said that all he has, his father giveth him and they shall come to him.

John 6:37
All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

Christ's people are those that God calls and chooses to save; therefore, they go to Christ as God has predetermined.

Romans 11:2
God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel saying,

So to your question of "aren't we all God's children", my answer is of course God's chosen are his people. Those whom God has saved or planning to save are his people.

Now you ask why God has established us here on earth. Why and for what purpose ? ….What has been God’s plan from the beginning ?….. Why did he even need a plan ?….

I will take your question about God's purpose and his plan from the beginning as the same questions basically, since they both have the same answer.

Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
Eph 1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

That seems to answer those questions. I believe verse 4 says foundation of the world, which would establish the beginning and verse 5 says "according to the good pleasure of his will", which would establish why. Perhaps what God is doing can be answered with scripture also....preparing himself a spotless bride? "That we should be holy and without blame before him in love". (Eph 1:4)

Eph 5:25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for IT (believers);
Eph 5:26 That he might sanctify and cleanse IT with the washing of water by the word,
Eph 5:27 That he might present IT to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.

I hope this answers your questions. I have posted more than just one verse here and I can post many many more if you like, but I would also like to see some scriptures from you since you obviously disagree here. I don't mind disagreement; however, I am someone who really likes to be reproved. That is how I learn God's word. So if I'm wrong Robert, please post God's word and reprove me!

Onejoe

[treasuringchrist]

The only options we have as believers is that either Jesus died for everyone or He died for the church. On the day of judgment either the sinner's debt has been paid by Jesus or the sinner will pay his debt in hell. Jesus does not pay the debts of those who will reject. That would have God punishing Jesus for their sin and then punishing the sinner for their sins. Jesus laid down His life for His sheep who are His Church

[germanJoy]

JFreak, if God wills someone to be saved, do they somehow have the power to "refuse" his salvation and change what he has set forth?

Same thing as I ask of everyone, do you have scriptures for your free will?
Yes, even if God wills someone to be saved, that someone has the power to "refuse" his salvation and change what God has set forth IF THAT SOMEONE CHOOSES TO DO SO. Here Onejoe are the supporting scriptures:

This is GOOD AND ACCEPTABLE in the sight of God our Saviour, WHO DESIRES ALL MEN TO BE SAVED AND TO COME TO THE KNOWLEDGE OF THE TRUTH." 1 Tim. 2:3-4 This passage tells us that God desires or wants or wills that ALL MANKIND (therefore He loved the world) BE SAVED. But obviously not ALL are saved because of MEN'S FREEWILL and not only of this but also because of GOD'S PREDESTINATION. Does God predestines what He does not want? I think not! Or is it just because He knows ahead men's will even before he exercises it? And God accepts and respects this will to choose Him or not. Why? because God is gentle and NEITHER FORCES NOR RAPES anyone but wants men to LOVE Him FREELY and not FORCEFULLY.
And He said to me, "It is done, I am the Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give to the one who thirsts from the spring of the water of life without cost (other translation, "FREELY"). Rev. 21:6 Further, Blessed are those WHO WASH their robes, that they may have the RIGHT to the tree of life, and may enter by the gates into the city. Rev. 22:14 These verses imply both free-will and predestination. Jesus chooses to give those who thirsts (predestination) and those who wash their robes (implies freewill) have the right to the tree of life.

Here Onejoe are some scriptures for FREEWILL:

for if God did not spare the natural branches (God cutted His "chosen people" off because of their unbelief), neither will He spare you. Behold then the kindness and severity of God, to those who fell, severity, but to you, God's kindness, IF YOU CONTINUE IN HIS KINDNESS; OTHERWISE YOU ALSO WILL BE CUT-OFF. Logically speaking, is this verse possible AT ALL without FREEWILL? No! this tells us that BY OUR OWN CHOICE OR DOING, we have the power to discontinue in God's kindness and like Israel will also be CUT-OFF. This verse CLEARLY CONTRADICTS the "once saved always saved" belief which teaches that "YOU WILL NEVER BE CUT-OFF NO MATTER WHAT YOU DO."!

Free-will had been given to mankind and for that reason the Israelites gave FREE-WILL offerings to God. Old-testaments scriptures on FREEWILL follow: Lev. 22:18, 23:38. Num 15:3, 29:39 Deut. 1:6, 17 2 Chro. 31:14 Ezra 1:4 Ps. 119:108, etc.

If FREE-WILL is not scriptural, then GOD'S JUDGMENT would be senseless but IT IS NOT!

[JonBoy]

"Also, this topic is not about how we became believers ie freewill v. Predestination, though this can be discussed to substaniate your point. "

This topic is everything about Freewill Vs Predestination, or more accurately Election. You Cannot seperate election from the concept of Chjrist only dying for the Church. If He only died for the Church this is in itself unseperably linked to Election.

Here is my view, for what its worth, if we take the bible as whole and study scripture in the light of the whole Bible it is impossible to conclude that Christ did not die for the sins of the world. To hold this view seriously misrepresents the revelation of the Father given through Jesus Christ particuarly in the Gospels and in the book of Acts.

Calvinists have developed a method of biblical interpretation that involves interpreting scripture through certain 'proof texts'. The doctrine that Christ died only for the Elect has caused untold damage in the Church of Jesus Christ. Is this the God that Jesus Christ revealed?

Some argue for limited atonement on the basis that if Christ died for the sins of the whole world, then surely unbelief is also a sin? On this basis then noone should go to hell, because Christ died for all sins for all people. However, those who hold this view forget that Christ said that there is a sin against the Holy Spirit that would not be forgiven. Also John spoke about a sin that leads to death. Evangelicals have traditionally (and I think rightly so) interpreted the sin against the Holy Spirit as being the rejection of Jesus. This is the only outstanding sin.

[Robert]

Hello Onejoe,
You ask me to post scriptural references and I will in time. It’s just that I’m confused as to what the topic is. Your original question was “Who did Christ die for.” I thought that Zarxs’s reply was quite adequate and self explanatory, as you could see by my reply to him, but you seem to have moved on to incorporate free will ( predestination) and OSAS. That’s Ok as long as I know for sure what your getting at.
By the way I don’t necessarily discount everything you are saying, it’s more the way your saying it. It is abundantly clear that some are predestined for a special purpose in these end times ie The Elect, but we, are not all of The Elect…..
Anyway getting back to the previous post I’m sorry to have to disagree with you on Matt.1:21. I still think you used this example out of context. This is not a soul saving chapter, the first seventeen verses are about the genealogy of Joseph, nothing more. This blood line is the lineage of Jesus Christ, through His adopted father Joseph.
It then goes on to describe the dilemma that Joseph was faced with, here he is engaged to Mary and he finds out she’s pregnant. Now that’s got to make any man stop and think. But Joseph loved Mary very much and had no desire to ruin Mary's reputation, he didn’t want Mary to be held up to public ridicule and was considering putting her away privately.
As Joseph was considering what to do about this, at night an Angel of the Lord God came to Joseph, and revealed to him exactly what had happened between Mary and the Holy Spirit.
Matthew 1:20 "But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, "Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that Which is conceived in her is of the Holy Spirit."
Matthew 1:21 "And she shall bring forth a Son, and thou shalt call His name JESUS: for He shall save His People from their sins."
Matthew 1:22 "Now all this was done, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the Prophet, saying," ………….( Isaiah 7:14;)
Matthew 1:23 "Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a Son, and they shall call His name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us."
Matthew 1:24 "Then Joseph being raised from sleep did as the angel of the Lord had bidden him, and took unto him his wife:"
Matthew 1:25 "And knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn Son: and he called His name JESUS."
So here we have it, pretty well the whole chapter and you seem to think that two words “His People” is the message ? What about the very next verse ?…. it was the fulfillment of prophecy…. Who was waiting for the Messiah ?… The house of Israel. They were expecting the Messiah to be a Great King and warrior who would vanquish their enemies and set them free. But they rejected Jesus, not understanding what a Great and powerful Warrior King He really is….Fools to this very day.
Who were God’s chosen people ?… The house of Israel…. Did God ever say only some were His chosen people ?…
What about the captivity in Egypt When God told Pharaoh through Moses “Let my people go.” Did He again ask that only some should be let go ? No for they were all His children, “His People.” and there were plenty of sinners in that bunch.
Ok I know I’m rambling on a bit so I’ll get to the point. To use as you have two words from the middle of a chapter, to try and make a point about something that has no bearing on the subject matter being taught is wrong.
You say :… “I have posted more than just one verse here and I can post many many more if you like.” The verses are not the problem as I have said, I don’t necessarily disagree with everything you are saying, on the other hand I don’t totally agree either. Having said that, the reason I bring to your attention what you are doing ie one word here a couple of words there is the fact that it is in my opinion out of context.
In other words if the verses you quote, from a certain scripture to prove your point, aren’t in direct alignment to the scriptures they’re taken from then they’re out of context and should not be used to prove a point elsewhere, unless both passages are referring to the same subject and message being taught. As is not the case in Matthew 1:21
Onejoe I love you as a brother in Christ,I really really do and in general I enjoy your posts, but I think your stretching it a bit now,. A lot of your quotes are in reference to the Elect which is a totally different subject.
We all know why God gave His only begotten Son for us. It’s a no brainier to a Christian. But even here you don’t seem to want to accept it as written.
John 3:16 "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life."
It appears you would have it written………whosoever God makes a believer…etc….
Anyway as for your reply to the questions I asked of you, I thank you. The answers unfortunately weren’t remotely close to what I was looking for, but that is not your fault it is mine. The questions were not presented correctly for that I apologise. Maybe we can get back to that another time.

Robert.

[OneJoe]

Yes, even if God wills someone to be saved, that someone has the power to "refuse" his salvation and change what God has set forth IF THAT SOMEONE CHOOSES TO DO SO. Here Onejoe are the supporting scriptures:

This is GOOD AND ACCEPTABLE in the sight of God our Saviour, WHO DESIRES ALL MEN TO BE SAVED AND TO COME TO THE KNOWLEDGE OF THE TRUTH." 1 Tim. 2:3-4 This passage tells us that God desires or wants or wills that ALL MANKIND (therefore He loved the world) BE SAVED. But obviously not ALL are saved because of MEN'S FREEWILL and not only of this but also because of GOD'S PREDESTINATION. Does God predestines what He does not want? I think not! Or is it just because He knows ahead men's will even before he exercises it? And God accepts and respects this will to choose Him or not. Why? because God is gentle and NEITHER FORCES NOR RAPES anyone but wants men to LOVE Him FREELY and not FORCEFULLY.
And He said to me, "It is done, I am the Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give to the one who thirsts from the spring of the water of life without cost (other translation, "FREELY"). Rev. 21:6 Further, Blessed are those WHO WASH their robes, that they may have the RIGHT to the tree of life, and may enter by the gates into the city. Rev. 22:14 These verses imply both free-will and predestination. Jesus chooses to give those who thirsts (predestination) and those who wash their robes (implies freewill) have the right to the tree of life.

Here Onejoe are some scriptures for FREEWILL:

for if God did not spare the natural branches (God cutted His "chosen people" off because of their unbelief), neither will He spare you. Behold then the kindness and severity of God, to those who fell, severity, but to you, God's kindness, IF YOU CONTINUE IN HIS KINDNESS; OTHERWISE YOU ALSO WILL BE CUT-OFF. Logically speaking, is this verse possible AT ALL without FREEWILL? No! this tells us that BY OUR OWN CHOICE OR DOING, we have the power to discontinue in God's kindness and like Israel will also be CUT-OFF. This verse CLEARLY CONTRADICTS the "once saved always saved" belief which teaches that "YOU WILL NEVER BE CUT-OFF NO MATTER WHAT YOU DO."!

Free-will had been given to mankind and for that reason the Israelites gave FREE-WILL offerings to God. Old-testaments scriptures on FREEWILL follow: Lev. 22:18, 23:38. Num 15:3, 29:39 Deut. 1:6, 17 2 Chro. 31:14 Ezra 1:4 Ps. 119:108, etc.

If FREE-WILL is not scriptural, then GOD'S JUDGMENT would be senseless but IT IS NOT!
Hello GermanJoy, first let me begin with 1 Tim 2:3-4. This scripture does not at all show we have the power to refuse God. Also, I too could very well use that scripture to support my stance on predestination by simply saying that God desires all men (being his chosen) to come to the knowledge of the truth. After all, I believe that is the case here.

Lets take a look at this scripture you have posted and will break this down to show how I view this scripture compared to how you view it....
1Ti 2:3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior;
1Ti 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

"For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our savior"....supporting the prior verses of 1-2 I'm sure we can agree on...

"WHO (God) WILL HAVE(appears to be an action, a certainty of action on God's part) ALL MEN (God's chosen) TO BE SAVED (Obtain Salvation).

Now my understanding that God has granted me is that he will basically see to it that his people obtain salvation according to his will.

"Does God predestine what he does not want?"....I'm not sure I understand this question...so I will answer by saying that yes God knows all things...also scripture says..Proverbs 16:4 The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil. So again, I don't know if this answers it or not.

"And God accepts and respects this will to choose Him or not. Why? because God is gentle and NEITHER FORCES NOR RAPES anyone but wants men to LOVE Him FREELY and not FORCEFULLY."......where is your scriptures for this statement? Also, your statment about "neither forces nor rapes", what is this all about?

"Rev 21:6 And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely." I hope this wasn't your supporting scripture because this is no support for your stance. First, you mentioned the other translation of "freely" which I have posted here from my KJV. Lets notice in this scripture that God is the free one to give. He is the one freely giving.

Rev 22:14 "Rev 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city." (KJV) This is the scripture I have for Rev22:14. Again, this does not at all implie free-will. Because again, God's chosen will be the ones to do his commandments because he has willed them to. He is the one working in them. They keep his commandments because they are the called, chosen, and faithful. (Rev17:14)

Also, for your next question to the verse you posted but never gave an exact scripture, the fact is God's people will continue in kindness. Heb 10:39 But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.

Now, as for your other scriptures. According to my KJV, I see nothing about Free will in Deut. 1:6, 17.

As for your other verses that you believe substantiates your belief that we can choose God, they only mention free will offerings, which is no different than someone asking for forgivness or saying Lord Lord, doesn't mean they will be saved. You believe we have free will to choose God. I believe we can choose certain things, but not spiritual things. Also, saved people did tend to offer up a sacrifise willingly because they had God working in them. Phi 2:13 For it is GOD which worketh IN YOU both to WILL and to DO of HIS good pleasure.

[OneJoe]

Robert, you are correct that a lot of the scriptures I have posted are related to the Elect. Those are posted to establish those are the ones Christ died for. He died for his chosen. Now I began this post with a question; however, perhaps I overlooked how close this topic was to free will or predestination. I assumed it would be discussed, but apparently free will has become the larger topic which is fine because it is still God's word.

Quote: "We all know why God gave His only begotten Son for us. It’s a no brainier to a Christian. But even here you don’t seem to want to accept it as written." I agree we all do know why God gave his son for us; however, the question was not why but rather for who, being all mankind or just his chosen. I do not dispute why Christ died. We know he came to save us from our sins. The only difference is some believe it was for all man kind and I believe it was for his elect, chosen, or his bride etc. since after all not all will be saved and it is a fact that God does have to choose us.

Quote:"It appears you would have it written………whosoever God makes a believer…etc…." Again, God does choose us. Not everyone gets into heaven by just saying a prayer, reading a tract, etc. Now I believe that indeed God does make us a believer. The bible says that faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the word of God. God grants us faith by his word to believe. Once again this is a work of God.

Eph 1:11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:
Eph 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that Holy Spirit of promise,
Eph 1:18 The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints,


One more question if you don't mind. If all we have to do is ask for forgiveness according to what you believe is free will, then why do we need HOPE? If God is going to forgive us because we ask, then why does so many in the bible HOPE for salvation? Why are we in hopeing and waiting if he grants it according to our will when we ask?

Scriptures:
Psalm 119:81
My soul fainteth for thy salvation: but I hope in thy word.

Psalm 119:166
LORD, I have hoped for thy salvation, and done thy commandments.

Lamentations 3:26
It is good that a man should both hope and quietly wait for the salvation of the LORD.

1 Thessalonians 5:8
But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.

Titus 1:2
In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;

Titus 3:7
That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.


It would appear that salvation is no gaurantee to some, but to others it is. We hope for salvation because nothing we do, including asking can get us saved. It is all God's choice and work. As always, thank you for your reply Robert, God bless!

Onejoe

[OneJoe]

Jonboy, as for you quoting me, i would now have to agree that Christ dieing for his chosen only and the free will topic v. predest. do indeed fit together. That I realize now..:-)

As for your statement about studying scripture in light of the whole bible and it being impossible to conclude that Christ did not die for the whole world, I would have to disagree. Which obviously you can tell by my other posts I would disagree; however, I would also like to hear why you believe that and the scriptures that you believe proves other wise. As for the Calvinists, I don't know much about them or their biblical beliefs. Nor do I know anything about "proof texts". Also, I don't see how you believe that Predestination has caused damage to the churches. From what i have seen, most churches reject the idea of Predestination. Furthermore, the churches that reject the idea completely, are also discarding parts of the bible because God's word does indeed state that we are chosen before the foundation of the world. So eventually I figure they will have to "twist" it in there some where or be seen for discarding a portion of God's word.

[JonBoy]

Let me work backwords :-). I did not say that predestination was damaging, what I did say is damaging is the theory of limited atonement, which is the concept you are defining when you say that Christ died for the church.

Furthermore, predestination/Election are biblical, that cannot be denied what can be contested is how they are understood. My aim was to highlight that by saying that Christ died only for the elect whom God choses before the world began is a faulty and dangerous view of predestination. And you are right not many churches believe this any more.

Such thinking in these matters did not originate with the apostles but by Augustine and later John Calvin. Calvin developed much of reformed theology and he has written on almost every relevant subject. However There are what are called the five points of calvinism, these are summed up by the word TULIP.

T= total depravity, Man is totally sinful, dead in sins unable to do anything for salvation.
U= Unconditional election. Man has no part in his salvation, God choses who will be saved and therefore as a consequence he also choses who will be damned. All are sinners , all deserve to be damned but God choses some and not all to be saved.
L= Limited atonement, we are discussing this just now, Since Christ sacrifice was perfect it could not be considered that he shed his blood for those who would reject him, this would be wasted blood. Christ only died for the elect. Thus your initial comment "the question is not whether God loves everyone, but only did he die for everyone or just the believers?" is not quite true, it is impossible to say that God loves everyone while holding that he only died for the elect and that he choses everyone else to go to hell. Gods love in the bible is defined as redeeming love. Limited atonement offers no hope for those whom God has chosen to be damned.
I= Irresitable grace, Since man is totally depraved, dead in sin he can do NOTHING for salvation. He cannot even repent or believe the gospel. Unless God grants man the gift of repentance and faith he cannot believe. Only The elect can repent and believe and only because God causes it to be so. It is irresistable grace man cannot refuse Gods salvation.
P= Perseverence of the saints, which is really the preservation of God. Since God chose the elect, he does not unchoose them, they can do nothing to be saved and they can do nothing to be lost. If one backslides permantly it is presumed that his was a false conversion.

This is a brief summary of Calvinism. This philosiohical system holds that you must have all five points as it is illogical to not believe them all.

I myself hold to some of these teachings that are clearly taught in scripture others I reject as human philosophy. This line of thinking creates a grid for bible interpretation therefore verses that challenge i:e limited atonement are misinterpreted.

Proof texts are when people wrestle a verse out of context inorder to support a doctrine. the verse you use to support your view is an example of this

"Ephesians 5:25 "Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church(believers), and gave himself for IT;Eph 5:26 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word, Eph 5:27 That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish."


Paul is teaching on marriage here and uses Christs example as a means to motivate Godly living. Jesus does love the church even more than he loves the world. He loves them because they are his, he died for the world but it those who are his church who have responded to His love, and in this way they are able to partake of the blessedness that Christs sacrifice provide, in this way he especially died for the church. However you cannot logically conclude from isolated texts that this means that he died only for the church. The reformation developed the idea of Sola Scriptura, Which means scripture is the final authority on all matters, but scripture must always be interpreted in the light of the other scriptures and in light of church doctrine found in scripture. So when a scripture seems to teach something that would contradict sound doctrine and the plain teaching of the rest of scripture then that interpretation would be rejected. This was the principle of Sola Scriptura

Why do I disagree with your view? Because I believe that the bible does not teach this, it is a distortion of Gods revelation. To hold such a view you are in effect saying God does not love the non elect, God choses some for heaven but a vast majority for hell.

There are many scriptures that refute this theory but here is the plainest one

1John 2:2He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.

This explicitly deals with the purpose of the atonement and who the atonement was for.

This next verse tells us who God desires to be saved and also who he gave his life a ransom for.
3This is good, and pleases God our Savior, 4who wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. 5For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, 6who gave himself as a ransom for all men—the testimony given in its proper time. To interpret this 'all' as meaning all of the elect is a compleste distortortion of the scripture.

Jesus called us to go into the world and preach the good news, throughout the NT there is the theme of the whosoever. God has planned a wedding banquet and he has told us to go into the highways and byways to compell 'all' to come in. 'Go and preach the good news 'whoever' believes and is baptised will be saved. It is a misrepresentation of God, to preach a gospel to all the world telling them to believe and repent inorder to be saved if infact thay do not have the ability to do so.

[Robert]

Hello Onejoe, I posted this reply a day or so ago but it was deleted or something happened to it I’ve since edited it to make it shorter maybe that was the problem.

To use as you have two words from the middle of a chapter, to try and make a point about something that has no bearing on the subject matter being taught is wrong.
I don’t necessarily disagree with everything you are saying, on the other hand I don’t totally agree either. I believe your interpretation is faulty. Having said that, the reason I bring to your attention what you are doing ie one word here a couple of words there is the fact that it is in my opinion out of context. The example you use in Ephesians 5:25 -27 is faulty. The message here is about marriage. Paul is using Christ as the example.
In other words if the verses you quote, from a certain scripture to prove your point, aren’t in direct alignment to the scriptures they’re taken from then they’re out of context and should not be used to prove a point elsewhere, unless both passages are referring to the same subject and message being taught. As is not the case in Matthew 1:21
A lot of your quotes are in reference to the Elect which is a totally different subject.
We all know why God gave His only begotten Son for us. But even here you don’t seem to want to accept it as written.
John 3:16 "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life."
It appears you would have it written………whosoever God makes a believer…etc….
Anyway as for your reply to the questions I asked of you, I thank you. The answers unfortunately weren’t remotely close to what I was looking for, but that is not your fault it is mine. The questions were not presented correctly for that I apologise. Maybe we can get back to that another time.

Robert.

[Robert]

Hello Onejoe Ok. Let us assume for a moment that you are correct in everything you have said or alluded to so far. What are some of the consequences ?

God commands us to take the good news of the gospels and Evangelise the world. … What would be the point ?… Who would we Evangelise too ?… By your reckoning God has already decided who is saved and who is condemned.
We are told that we all fall short…. An unlearned person after committing a sin may well conclude they are not on the "saved list" and give up on God, their soul being lost forever.
What of Satan ? His presence would be irrelevant, since the outcome of our destiny had already been established.
Why then would God not just snuff him ( Satan )out, together with the rest of the condemned ? He had the opportunity and justification during the first rebellion. Why do you suppose God chose not to do so ?

I found this snippet by Justin Martyr in my files you may want to consider plus a couple of extra ones for good measure.
110-165 AD Justin Martyr "We have learned from the prophets, and we hold it to be true, that punishments, chastisements, and rewards are rendered according to the merit of each man's actions. Otherwise, if all things happen by fate, then nothing is in our own power. For if it be predestined that one man be good and another man evil, then the first is not deserving of praise or the other to be blamed. Unless humans have the power of avoiding evil and choosing good by free choice, they are not accountable for their actions-whatever they may be. For neither would a man be worthy of reward or praise if he did not of himself choose the good, but was merely created for that end. Likewise, if a man were evil, he would not deserve punishment, since he was not evil of himself, being unable to do anything else than what he was made for."
185-255 AD Origen "He makes Himself known to those who, after doing all that their powers will allow, confess that they need help from Him." (Origen Against Celsus bk. 7, chap. 42)
190 AD Clement of Alexandria "A man by himself working and toiling at freedom from sinful desires achieves nothing. But if he plainly shows himself to be very eager and earnest about this, he attains it by the addition of the power of God. God works together with willing souls. But if the person abandons his eagerness, the spirit from God is also restrained. To save the unwilling is the act of one using compulsion; but to save the willing, that of one showing grace." (Clement Salvation of the Rich Man chap. 21)
190 AD Clement of Alexandria "Neither praise nor condemnation, neither rewards nor punishments, are right if the soul does not have the power of choice and avoidance, if evil is involuntary." (Clement Miscellanies bk. 1, chap. 17)
250-300 AD Archelaus "All the creatures that God made, He made very good. And He gave to every individual the sense of free will, by which standard He also instituted the law of judgment.... And certainly whoever will, may keep the commandments. Whoever despises them and turns aside to what is contrary to them, shall yet without doubt have to face this law of judgment.... There can be no doubt that every individual, in using his own proper power of will, may shape his course in whatever direction he pleases." (Archelaus Disputation With Manes sees. 32, 33)
260-315 AD Methodius "Those [pagans] who decide that man does not have free will, but say that he is governed by the unavoidable necessities of fate, are guilty of impiety toward God Himself, making Him out to be the cause and author of human evils. " (Methodius The Banquet of the Ten Virgins discourse 8, chap. 16)

I have no idea what your response to my previous reply or to this one will be, but assuming it is as in the past, asking for scriptural references, I will be only to happy to provide you some. My only concern is will you interpret them correctly. I Say this now because German joy gave you a few which you didn’t seem to grasp, plus when she inadvertently posted Rev. 22:14 instead of Rev.22:17 you commented only on Rev. 22:14
Which means you didn’t read verses before or after Rev. 22:14 the example given, otherwise you would have found the verse. she was referring to. How can you possibly understand the message contained if you haven’t read enough of the subject.

Robert.

[zarxs]

Robert, I take my hat off to you. That is one thorough bit of work. Concise creative and Biblically accurate. You obviously do check context of a passage based on previous posts. Considering some of the individuals quoted I'm guessing you are a seminary student or in ministry. Thank you for joining us.

[OneJoe]

Robert, First, let me begin by saying if I have missed anything, do forgive me because I have been a bit confused with the posts here lately. I have tried to reply to so many and I am getting them mixed up. I am trying not to miss anything here so if I fail to answer something, it is possible i have overlooked it. Also, again I am aware of the context of Ephesians chapter 5. I realize the chapter is about marriage, but what I was pointing out was that in chapter five there are references which refer to the believers and Christ. Such as...

Eph 5:23 For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church (believers): and he is the savior of the body (believers).

Eph 5:24 Therefore as the church(believers) is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing.

Eph 5:25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church (believers), and gave himself for IT (believers);

Eph 5:26 That HE might sanctify and cleanse IT (the believers) with the washing of water by the word,

So yes this chapter is about marriage; however, it is not only about marriage between a man and a woman, but contains passages which refer to the believers and their subjection unto Christ and his being the head of the believers.


"God commands us to take the good news of the gospel and Evangelise the world. … What would be the point?"......The point is God saves people under the hearing of his word. Faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the word of God. We spread the Gospel so that those predestined to be saved will hear the word and be granted faith to believe. God has chosen some to salvation as the bible says; however, God does this by his word. Now whether some spread the word of not, his WILL will certainly be done. It can not be stopped.

"We are told that we all fall short…. An unlearned person after committing a sin may well conclude they are not on the "saved list" and give up on God, their soul being lost forever."....Perhaps you answered your own questions there. All fall short the Glory of God. Furthermore, when we become saved we also become a new creature. It is this new creature that does the will of God, that keeps the commandments and does not sin. However, the old man in us still desires the sins of the flesh. So you mention an "unlearned person" concluding their soul is lost forever would also be unlearned to the HOPE of salvation through the grace of God.

"What of Satan ?"
"Why then would God not just snuff him ( Satan )out, together with the rest of the condemned ? He had the opportunity and justification during the first rebellion. Why do you suppose God chose not to do so ?"...Well God will cast satan down also with the rest when the time he has set comes. Satan is still here to pull the word from the hearts of some that God has called...scripture also says, many are called, few are chosen...Matthew 22:14. Those called, but not chosen could perhaps be those spoken of in Hebrews ch. 6.

Heb 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
Heb 6:5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
Heb 6:6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

As for your file by Justin Martyr, it appears to be no different than what I have heard before. Though I must admit, the last part caught my attention...

"Those [pagans] who decide that man does not have free will, but say that he is governed by the unavoidable necessities of fate, are guilty of impiety toward God Himself,"

Sounds like a judgment from a man who has disregarded what the bible has to say about being chosen. I am not at all surprised. Many people today disregard many parts of God's word.

Also, yes I would like to see scriptureson your behalf. I commented on Germanjoys quotes of God's word, but I would like to see scripture that implies we have the ability to choose God and that he died for everyone, but it would have to be scriptures other than John 3:16 and a few others which I have already looked at, perhaps something I could have overlooked. I believe my interpretation of scripture is fine.

Now, I would like to ask you something about Rev 22:17 since you believe I missed it..:-)

Does this scripture convince you that we can accept God..salvation..by our own natural ability? Does God not have to call us first? Does he not have to grant us faith by his word before? Does God not deal with our hearts so that we WILL "desire" him?

[SpiritLedEd]

I would amagine this will be a controversial question, but I will ask and see how others view this topic.

Who did Christ die for?

Now the question is not whether God loves everyone, but only did he die for everyone or just the believers?

Also, this topic is not about how we became believers ie freewill v. Predestination, though this can be discussed to substaniate your point.
This topic is being asked because I don't recall it being discussed on this board and I see a few new members..:-)

I have heard some say Christ died for everyone....simple example often used is John3:16 "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life."

However....

I have also seen Ephesians 5:25 "Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church(believers), and gave himself for IT;Eph 5:26 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word, Eph 5:27 That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish."

Now, i realize John3:16 says world; however, I have also noticed it says "whosoever believeth in him should not perish". This seems to also say he died only for those that would believe or are part of his church that he is preparing, that they would not perish. Ephesians 5:25 says he gave himself for it, being the church or believers. This does not point to his death being for everyone, but I'm posting this to see how others view this and allow others the opportunity to search the scriptures for more verses on this topic. I know you will find them..:-) May God richly bless you through our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ! :c


Consider closely the words of John 3:16-17: "For God so loved the world that He gave His one and only Son, that WHOEVER BELIEVES in Him shall not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but to SAVE THE WORLD through Him." The phrase "whoever believes in Him" signifies that we have a choice to either receive Jesus as Lord and Savior, or reject Him. Did Jesus come only to save a few? No. Salvation was purchased (made available) for "the world" by Christ on the cross, but only those who choose to accept the proffered gift actually receive it.

SLE

[Robert]

Thank you Zarxs, I appreciate those kind words, but remember all truth comes from the word of God not from man……. it’s a matter of whether you have eyes to see and ears to hear…. thanks again.
Robert.

[Robert]

Hello Onejoe, No need to apologise for anything, I think it was my fault. I’ m still getting used to this new format I missed one of those ( more replies… below thing.) Actually I must commend you for one thing you haven’t been trying to dodge any of the flack and I do believe you have answered every post. You are indeed a busy man.
Ok. You still seem to be hung up on Eph 5:23-26 it appears to me that you are reading these verses and seeing two messages when in fact it is just one. The subject of this chapter is the family ….trust me on this… From verse 22 Paul begins an analogy This analogy describes the same relationship, rules, and submission between Christ and His bride [the Church], as that of the husband and his wife…Their commitment to each other !
Eph 5:23 "For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the Head of the church: and He is the Saviour of the body."….. We know Christ is our Saviour, those that believe upon Him, are part of the body of Christ.
Eph 5:24 "Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing."
“In everything" in the Greek text means a full commitment. Christian husbands and wives must be fully committed to each other, in the same way we, as the church are committed to Christ.
Eph 5:25 "Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave Himself for it;"
There can be no greater love, than to lay down your life for another. So husbands be committed to love and protect your beautiful wives to the end.
Eph 5:26 "That He might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,"
That He might sanctify your marriage As you study the Word of God it will cleanse you daily. as the Word leads us to repentance.
Eph 5:27 "That He might present it to Himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish."
Upon repentance you become spotless and without blemish. That is why Jesus paid the price; so all of our sins would be placed on Him, and our souls would become holy and without blemish.
Eph 5:28 "So ought men to love their wives as their own bodies. He that loveth his wife loveth himself."
Eph 5:29 "For no man ever yet hated his own flesh; but nourisheth and cherisheth it, even as the Lord the church:"
Yes, the Lord cherishes His Church and nourishes it daily with the wisdom of His Word.
Eph 5:30 "For we are members of His body, of His flesh, and of His bones."
This oneness form into a single body.
Eph 5:31 "For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh."
Eph 5:32 "This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church."
Eph 5:33 "Nevertheless let every one of you in particular so love his wife even as himself; and the wife see that she reverence her husband."

Onejoe, I couldn’t resist finishing the rest of the chapter in the hopes you would see this more than one or two verses at a time. The only mystery is if you haven't understood that this chapter is about Christ's relationship to His Church… His bride…His extended family.
It’s a love affair, just as a man and wife become one, this is exactly how Jesus feels toward His bride, the Church, No matter how many time you highlight IT….IT won’t change a thing.

It’s blindingly obvious, pun intended, that you will continue to twist the word of God to suit your own needs, so as to prove a point devoid of scriptural truth. It is beginning to appear futile for me to continue. But as promised I will give you further verses to do as you will and one question to ponder. It’s quite late I need to go to bed.
2 Cor 5:10.
Deut 30:15-18.
Josh 24:15.
John 15:6-7.
John 5:39-40;
Romans 2:4-11.
Galatians 3:26-29.
Your saying that you believe that Jesus died for all those that were predestined ie judged worthy before the foundation of the world Eph 1:4-5, …correct ? Question…Why ?

Robert.

[SemperReformanda]

ah :) the beauty of context. So often whats confusing can be made clear if you just read the surrounding verses eh?

"For God so LOVED THE WORLD that He gave His one and only Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but to SAVE THE WORLD through Him."

God loved THE WORLD and sent His Son to save THE WORLD.

Since the World in vs 16 MUST mean everyperson who exists in the world. Would you say EVERY person will be saved as per the purpose of GOd in vs 17? Or does a) the World not mean every single person, or b) Christ failed in the purpose he was sent for.

Not the purpose of GOd here was to SAVE the world not "offer a possibility for salvation"

And of course whoever believes in himwillnot perish. THe problem is that NO ONE believes in him of their own free will. So those that he supernaturally intevenes in will be the ones who believe and who inherit eternal life :)

[SemperReformanda]

Just a quick look at your proof text for "unlimited atonement" if we may :). The word translated "atoning sacrifice" in your version is translated in more literal translations as propitiation. He is the propitiation for sins. Not only our but those of the world. Expiation. The word meaning to appease or make satisfaction.
IF "the world" here in fact means every individual. That means that Gods wrath is satisfied. appeased, expiated for every single person. IF in fact thats what is meant by the world than this verse is not teaching unlimited atonement but universalism. IF EVERYONE's sins are now propitiated, if God is satisfied, appeased with every individual, than there remains no wrath for anyone. In interpreting scripture through the rest of scripture does, in fact, the scripture teach that God is satisfied with everyone? Of course not. So either the world doesnt not mean every individual, or else not all sin is propitiated, only "all sins except for unbelief".

Now lets look at "the world" in light of the rest of scriptures. Is the only definition for the world, "every individual in existence"?

For instance..scoot on down to verse 15 of the same chapter. Same word here for world, "kosmos", it must mean every individual in existence. so...
"Love not the world (every individual in existence)..." hmm would we teach that as believers we are to NOT love any individual in existence? OR do we look at the rest of scripture to show us that we do love the individuals but a different meaning for World is in view here.
A word study willshow contexts where that same World/kosmos means the known universe, Mankind in general, the physical earth as opposed to heaven, All people groups as opposed to A specified group like Isreal. and 2 or three other meanings.

Looking at the context of the word in 1jn2:2 which meaning fits best? We know universalism isnt true. IS it possible, probable even that the last meaning listed is in view. John knows his letter will be circulated around asia minor and who knows how far else. ITs not a specific group just the church written to and himself.. Not ours only.. but the world.. all peoples. Not every individual to ever exist (because then no one would suffer Gods wrath. its all been appeased, he's satisfied!) but all peoples.

That makes alot more sense and seems aLOT more consistent with the rest of scripture, and the concept of Propitiation and expiation.

Personally i dont really like the term "limited atonement" b/c Both sides (minus the universalist) limit the atonement. The reformed limit the extent of who is atoned while the non-reformed limit the efficacy of the atonement.

What is accomplished thorugh atonement? Was God fully satisfied, appeased, with the work of Christ? Or did it just gain an offer of satisfaction that must be combined with faith to truely bring expiation for sin?

[SemperReformanda]

"Some argue for limited atonement on the basis that if Christ died for the sins of the whole world, then surely unbelief is also a sin? On this basis then noone should go to hell, because Christ died for all sins for all people. However, those who hold this view forget that Christ said that there is a sin against the Holy Spirit that would not be forgiven. Also John spoke about a sin that leads to death. Evangelicals have traditionally (and I think rightly so) interpreted the sin against the Holy Spirit as being the rejection of Jesus. This is the only outstanding sin."

Again then you are left with Christ died for all the sin of everyone except for the unbelief of the non-elect. It covers the unbelief of the ones who eventually repent, but not the unbelief of those who never do. A "limited atonement". Not all the sin of every person.

[Robert]

Hello again Onejoe,
I’m a little more refreshed today, so I will try and finish the post I only half replied to yesterday. Like you, I too am confused as to where we are with all this. Let me start by saying this: This post and the one on free will, which I have intentionally avoided, are not constructive subjects at all. It’s divisive, pitting one Christian against an other. Confusion!….. Satan must be just loving this.
I’m ashamed that I would allow myself to get involved. It was only when you started using one and two words singularly out of context that I felt compelled to do so. ( Or should I say predestined to do so…. Just kidding with you ) What your doing is akin to a racehorse with blinkers on, focused forward unable to see what’s going on around him and driven by someone with only one thought in mind…. ..winning !
If you are given scriptures and continue to insert predestination whenever and wherever it suits your purpose, then it’s no wonder that you say you can supply many more verses. I’ll wager it could be hundreds.
As I have stated previously there is no doubt that predestination is a fact….for some !
It is also a fact that free will exists…..for others !
It is also a fact that God intervenes for whatever purpose… He chooses !
All these run parallel with each other. Each has a separate purpose of it’s own. When God wants us to know that the reference being talked about is predestination He will make it known quite openly in His Word. Eph 1 4:5 and elsewhere…. When He doesn’t, He won’t, simple as that.
So my position on this is: It’s not our responsibility, nor our right to change the Word of God, to insert what is not there and by doing so changing the message altogether.
What in essence your saying is: God I know you divinely inspired the Holy Bible for the benefit of the likes of me, but I think I could have made a better job of it, because you keep missing out the parts where we’re supposed to tell everyone that we are all predestined and that you died exclusively for us. So I’m just going to edit a few verses if that Ok ?….. NO ! it’s not Ok…...Since when did we know the inner thoughts of God ?

Lets take a look at the Question I left you with last night. I haven’t checked to see what or whether you have replied yet. Which makes this a little more fun.
If you have been predestined before the foundation of the world, that would mean that at some point Thousands of years ago God decided and declared you already judged and worthy. You are one of the Elect !… The Chosen !….Tell me then why would Jesus shed his precious blood for you ? You are already saved !You have been judged !
So who did Christ die for…. “The one who was having too much fun being a sinner.”
Happy New Year, Onejoe.

Robert.

[jesus_freak_[^_^]]

he did die for every one, every one who choses him, and he gives us the choise. if some dont chose him they will perish, but thats there own choice, it may sound a little harsh but thats the way it is he loves us all, but if you chose to fall from him he cant help you, because he gave us free will.

[jesus_freak_[^_^]]

he did die for every one, every one who choses him, and he gives us the choise. if some dont chose him they will perish, but thats there own choice, it may sound a little harsh but thats the way it is. he loves us all, but if you chose to fall from him he cant help you, because he gave us free will.:bible

[germanJoy]

Amen SLE, if we tell the world that God loves them and SINCERELY WANTS to save them, we need to mean it and not confuse them with the message of condemnation and pre-election. Another problem with extremely believing on PREDESTINATION is the lack of SENSE in evangelising to the world of God's GREAT PLAN OF SALVATION to ALL MANKIND if they choose to believe. If God's salvation had nothing to do with MEN's will AT ALL, then evangelising would be senseless. Yes, John 3:16-17 is a CLEAR SCRIPTURE of FREE WILL and God's plan of salvation.

[OneJoe]

Amen SLE, if we tell the world that God loves them and SINCERELY WANTS to save them, we need to mean it and not confuse them with the message of condemnation and pre-election. Another problem with extremely believing on PREDESTINATION is the lack of SENSE in evangelising to the world of God's GREAT PLAN OF SALVATION to ALL MANKIND if they choose to believe. If God's salvation had nothing to do with MEN's will AT ALL, then evangelising would be senseless. Yes, John 3:16-17 is a CLEAR SCRIPTURE of FREE WILL and God's plan of salvation.
GermanJoy

"if we tell the world that God loves them and SINCERELY WANTS to save them, we need to mean it and not confuse them with the message of condemnation and pre-election."

GermanJoy, what happens if they are not chosen? I am talking simply about salvation being obtained and not how. Even if you believe someone has free will, the bibe DOES say that many are called and few chosen.(Mat 20:16) (Mat22:14) The bible also says that NOT EVERYONE who says Lord Lord will enter the kingdom of heaven. (Mat7:21) We should explain more to others the effect of being saved..doing God's will and keeping his word. We should ensure the HOPE of salvation through God's grace and mercy. All i'm saying is you nor I can gaurantee their salvation. It is up to God and he has already said that not everyone will enter after calling upon him. I can tell you whats confusing. It is when people tell others to say a prayer or go to church and God WILL save them, yet they start reading the bible and see the truth in the bible that says he chooses us, he predestinated us, he calls us, not everyone enters, Heb 6 when they fall away and can not be renewed to repentance again...this is when serious problems arise in spiritual lives because they BELIEVED what they were told and now they FEAR they might not be saved and feel they were lied to. The truth is all things happen according to God's will. If they are not saved then God did not will it. If they are saved, then it was not their prayer, it was ALL God. It was completely of God.

Also, just to comment on your lacke of sense comment on evangelising, as I said before, the point is to spread the word so that those destined to be saved will hear the word and obtain faith, but whether someone does not will not stop God's will. His chosen will spread the word as they are TOLD to do so and his people will be saved.

As for John 3:16-17, well we have went over that before...strange how that is so clear yet used by both sides..:-)

Also, I'm assuming you believe that salvation is of God and not of works as scripture says.

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Isn't it interesting how Ephesians speaks of predestination quite often and some believe it was Paul and others chosen then but we have the right to choose today? Predestination was them chosen then, yet the salvation by grace through faith and not of works is still believed to apply to us today, but not the other scriptures. Once again, just a note on how some scriptures are believed to apply to our lives today, but others are disregarded because they conflict with what some want to believe.

[Angel]

Romans 5, verse 6 - 11
"For when we were still without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly. For scarcely for a righteous man will one die : yet perhaps for a good man someone would even dare to die. But God demonstrates His own love toward us in that while we were still sinners Christ died for us. Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him. For if when we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life. And not only that, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received the reconciliation."

Although I know what you are getting at in your post Onejoe these verses to me say that Christ died for all who were His enemies. The rest of what you say is just too mind boggling for me. :r By His Grace we are saved. Amen! :-D

Angel :af

[SemperReformanda]

lets take a closer look angel. This is one of my favorite passages in the scriptures :)

While WE were enemies. Who does the we refer to? Paul is writing to the church at Rome. He is addressing beleivers ,the elect and says while WE were enemies.

follow all the we's and it becomes VERY apparent that its not refering to "all who were his enemies" Reading through what all describes the we? :

While 1 We were still sinners christ died for us. Much more than, 2having now been justified by His blood, We shall be saved from wrath through Him.. 3 We were enemies... 4 We were reconciled.., 5We shall be saved by His life... 6 We rejoice in God...,7 We have now received reconciliation.

all that can only be true of believers. Christ died for us while we were at emnity with Him, and reconciled us to him by causing us to trust in Him. Praise God for such sovereign grace. We rejoice in God:)

[sogjohn]

Question:

Why should John 3:16 give the statement that Christ died only for believers?
The text's saying that God gave his son because he loved the world, and that every one, who believed in him, should not perish.

Therefore I would tend to say:
When you believe in him you will not perish because (for) God gave his only begotten son.

What's so difficult in that certain scripture? (Of course it does not solve the Praedest./Freewill-problem because there are still other verses in the bible)

See John 3:36


Eckhard
Peace be with you.
Christ did die for us. You have read the Scriptures Eddy, ask yourself. Though he died in Jerusalem, he sacrificed himself for all no matter he be righteous or not be an Israelite or not. It is same as the clouds that rain on all beings without discrimination. It is not just a sacrifice offering Eddy (as my priest says), it is a sacrifice out of love and I tell you, you will not believe him unless you love him. Amen

[sogjohn]

Jesus laid down His life for His sheep who are His Church
You know the house of God.

[germanJoy]

I believe that salvation is not by works but by faith that has works and not by faith without works. To believe that salvation is by faith alone without works is like building your house on a sand. Jesus Christ Himself taught us many parables on the importance of works for the perfection of our faith. The problem with many christians is the looking SOLELY at Eph. 2:8,9 without considering the complete message of salvation in James 2:24-26

v 24 You see that a man is JUSTIFIED by WORKS, and NOT BY FAITH ALONE."
v 26 For just as the body without the spirit is dead, SO ALSO FAITH WITHOUT WORKS IS DEAD.

It is definitely wrong to teach that salvation is by FAITH without works. For this matter, SALVATION is not as easy as others think ("just believe then you are saved"). No, salvation is difficult.
1 Peter 4:18And if it is with DIFFICULTY that the righteous is saved, what will become of the godless man and the sinner?
Why is it with difficulty? because the BLOOD SHED ON THE CROSS is PRECIOUS AND HOLY, God gave HIS BEST and does not want that we play around with it. He wants that we exercise our FREE WILL in taking His free gift of salvation SERIOUSLY. He expects that we show some efforts by doing His will.

And if I am still not understood then learn from this:

Therefore everyone who hears these words of Mine, AND ACTS UPON THEM, may be compared to a WISE MAN, who built his house upon the rock. And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and burst against that house; and yet it did not fall, for it had been founded upon the rock. And everyone who hears these words of Mine, and DOES NOT ACT UPON THEM, will be like a FOOLISH MAN, who built his house upon the sand, And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and burst against that house, and it fell, AND GREAT WAS ITS FALL." Matt 7:24-27

God bless you, brother.

[OneJoe]

Heb 9:28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

"was once offered to bear the sins of many"

This scripture says many; not everyone, not all, but rather many, a select few. I have not come across a scripture that says he died for everyone or all. John 3:16 says world, but adds the condition of "whosoever" believes and obviously God knows who these people will be and certainly is not everyone.

[absolutelysure]

The truest answer I can state( please excuse me if this had been already posted as I did not read all the posts) Is THE FATHER.

In HIM
Doug

[beloved57]

Heb 9:28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

"was once offered to bear the sins of many"

This scripture says many; not everyone, not all, but rather many, a select few. I have not come across a scripture that says he died for everyone or all. John 3:16 says world, but adds the condition of "whosoever" believes and obviously God knows who these people will be and certainly is not everyone.

the whoever believes are a selected people..

acts 13:

48And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed

The sheep jn 10:

26But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.

Thats why christ was given to the world, so the sheep of the world would believe..

[germanJoy]

The truest answer I can state( please excuse me if this had been already posted as I did not read all the posts) Is THE FATHER.

In HIM
Doug
Perhaps you meant, THE FATHER'S WILL, Doug. :-)

[biblethumpinbob]

Christ died for everyone, especially those that are called and chosen. If He didn't die for everyone, then those He did not die for would never be judged for rejecting such a great salvation. But this is the mystery, because it is true; God has no delight in seeing man perish, and a vast amount of people do reject the Gospel of Christ. Those that are His are called and chosen and those are the ones that accepted God's great salvation. So Christ died for those that are His and hands them to God the Father unto the adoption of the Sons of God.

[absolutelysure]

That was what I refering too.

In Him
Doug

[doobtones]

Interesting topic. Permit me to add my two cents' worth, from a conservative Lutheran viewpoint.

To answer the question, who did Christ die for...I believe that Christ died for ALL, a doctrine which we Lutherans call objective justification.

Mark 16:15 Go into all the world and preach the good news to all creation.
John 3:17 God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him.
Romans 5:18 Just as the result of one trespass was condemnation for all men, so also the result of one act of righteousness was justification that brings life for all men.
2 Corinthians 5:19 God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting men's sins against them.
I John 2:2 He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours, but also for the sins of the whole world.
John 1:29: Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!

So...based on these passages (and others like them), I would say that God has declared all people righteous, or, not guilty (objective justification) because Jesus served as their substitute and paid for their sins in full.

HOWEVER...this does NOT mean that all people are going to Heaven. Being declared righteous does not mean saved.
So how, then, is the individual Christian saved?


Conservative Lutherans firmly reject the concept of free will, since the Bible states that we are dead in trespasses and sins and unable by our own thinking or choosing to believe or come to Christ.

Many people reject this perfect righteousness earned by Christ by trying to earn righteousness before God by their own works.

It is important the the Holy Spirit work faith in us so that we do not trust in our own works but only in the righteousness God gives us by grace in Christ . If God's act of declaring the world righteous is referred to as objective justification, then the act of saving the individual is referred to as (subjective justification. We can be certain of God's forgiveness because it does not depend on anything we do but completely on what Christ has done for us.

[beloved57]

Interesting topic. Permit me to add my two cents' worth, from a conservative Lutheran viewpoint.

To answer the question, who did Christ die for...I believe that Christ died for ALL, a doctrine which we Lutherans call objective justification.

Mark 16:15 Go into all the world and preach the good news to all creation.
John 3:17 God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him.
Romans 5:18 Just as the result of one trespass was condemnation for all men, so also the result of one act of righteousness was justification that brings life for all men.
2 Corinthians 5:19 God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting men's sins against them.
I John 2:2 He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours, but also for the sins of the whole world.
John 1:29: Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!

So...based on these passages (and others like them), I would say that God has declared all people righteous, or, not guilty (objective justification) because Jesus served as their substitute and paid for their sins in full.

HOWEVER...this does NOT mean that all people are going to Heaven. Being declared righteous does not mean saved.
So how, then, is the individual Christian saved?


Conservative Lutherans firmly reject the concept of free will, since the Bible states that we are dead in trespasses and sins and unable by our own thinking or choosing to believe or come to Christ.

Many people reject this perfect righteousness earned by Christ by trying to earn righteousness before God by their own works.

It is important the the Holy Spirit work faith in us so that we do not trust in our own works but only in the righteousness God gives us by grace in Christ . If God's act of declaring the world righteous is referred to as objective justification, then the act of saving the individual is referred to as (subjective justification. We can be certain of God's forgiveness because it does not depend on anything we do but completely on what Christ has done for us.

Yes I dont believe your theory..:-(

[rayfen]

Jesus Christ died for the world. The wages of sin is death but the gift of God is eternal life. Everyone has the choice of accepting or rejecting the gift of God. If you will accept Him He will give you eternal life

[beloved57]

Jesus Christ died for the world.

He died for his sheep..

jn 10:

As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.