Women pastors/preachers

[prncessotheKing]

i know that in some places in the Bible, it talks about how women should not have authority over men, but paul mentions women in ministry several times. is it ok for a woman to become a pastor?
my major next year in college is pastoral studies in the hope of becoming a pastor. but i do not want to do anything that is against the Word.
can anyone shed light on this topic for me?

[larry]

Dear sister in Christ, the best material I have ever found on this subject is a pamphlet available free at the following web site.

Go to "gracegod.com" and then depending on the search engine you have, you may have to select "Gospel Fellowship & Grace & God Glory Bible College". All material there is free and there is no registration. Along the left side of their home page select a blue selection "PAMPHLETS". Look for title "PHOEBE", click on to open, and a toolbar appears on top left. Options include "SAVES COPY - PRINT - EMAIL". Phoebe is a pamphlet by A. S. Copley telling women of their official place in the Church, and I believe that it will clear up any doubt you have.

God bless you in your search for truth in Jesus' name - larry

[Servant]

Here are some clear scriptures concerning your question about women in the ministry.
1Co 14:34 Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law.
1Co 14:35 And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.
Paul, in these previous verses, was addressing the brethern at Corinth.

So what is the womens role according to God. Tit 2:3 The aged women likewise, that they be in behaviour as becometh holiness, not false accusers, not given to much wine, teachers of good things;
Tit 2:4 That they may teach the young women to be sober, to love their husbands, to love their children
I hope these scriptures help answer your question.

[shanan]

Hi

I realise there ahve been many threads about this in the past but ive been wrestling with the idea of women pastors and trying to decide if it right or not. I listen to msges from John Macarthur from grace to you church and was convinced that it was wrong for women to be pastors. However i have seen a couple of women pastors/preachers such as Joyce Meyer and quite enjoyed the sermon. I went to a website of john macarthurs and read what he said about the subject. What does everyone else think?
http://www.biblebb.com/files/macqa/70-10-6.htm

http://www.biblebb.com/files/macqa/1301-F-2.htm

Thanks

Shanan

[Rufus]

"A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach;" - 1 Timothy 3:2

"Let the deacons be the husbands of one wife, ruling their children and their own houses well." - 1 Timothy 3:12

"Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence." - 1 Timothy 2:11-12

"Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience as also saith the law. And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church." - 1 Corinthians 14:34-35

"That they may teach the young women to be sober, to love their husbands, to love their children, To be discreet, chaste, keepers at home, good, obedient to their own husbands, that the word of God be not blasphemed." - Titus 2:4-5

"Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body." - Ephesians 5:22-23

[SoftSpoken]

provided by Shanan's link: It is so patently obvious that God created Adam and that Eve was made as a helper to Adam. So, man and woman were designed in the way that man leads and a woman helps, and comes under his leadership. (italics mine)

I think if women are completely honest, they will feel a deep sense of security in the biblical role they are created to fulfill. IMO, a woman's sphere of influence is completely robbed when she takes 'authority' that's not hers to take.

Esther is a wonderful example of the blessings that come from operating in the 'role' God has given.

[Julia Hagan]

I myself do believe in women being minister's.If God wants you to preach then I say preach. In the word of God it says there is neither male or female in God's eye.

[Wendell]

I myself do believe in women being minister's.If God wants you to preach then I say preach. In the word of God it says there is neither male or female in God's eye.

Soooo... if in Gods eyes there is neither male and female, according to your reasoning... then why dont male christians, have the babies..... wouldnt it be all right for men to marry men and women to marry women...?? hmmmm....I think your application of that verse, needs to be rethought..

blue

[Warrior4Truth]

Hey Shanan. It is interesting that this topic has come up just when I have been doing some studying on it. I have a female friend that is struggling with this issue, so I have been trying to help her find the truth about it, because some say it is alright and others say it is wrong. She is confussed. I look forward to the direction this thread goes and what I will learn from christians with a much better understanding of this than I do. May God richely bless you.

[Warrior4Truth]

Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience as also saith the law. And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church." - 1 Corinthians 14:34-35

Hey Rufus. This verse has given me some confussion. Paul says for the women to be silent, that they are not permitted to speak. If they will learn anything let them asks their husbands at home. This is obviously speaking of WIVES is it not. Seeing as how they are to ask their Husbands at home. So is Paul speaking of the wives only here or is it to all women? I hope that you can bring some clarity to this for me. God Bless you brother.

[Rufus]

Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience as also saith the law. And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church." - 1 Corinthians 14:34-35

Hey Rufus. This verse has given me some confussion. Paul says for the women to be silent, that they are not permitted to speak. If they will learn anything let them asks their husbands at home. This is obviously speaking of WIVES is it not. Seeing as how they are to ask their Husbands at home. So is Paul speaking of the wives only here or is it to all women? I hope that you can bring some clarity to this for me. God Bless you brother.

I would suggest that we consider the ritual of our marriage ceremonies. Why do we have a father give away their daughter to the husband?

[Warrior4Truth]

I believe I understand what you are saying Rufus. The daughter, even though not married, is still under the authority of her father. Therefore, this still applies to her. Correct?

[Rufus]

I believe I understand what you are saying Rufus. The daughter, even though not married, is still under the authority of her father. Therefore, this still applies to her. Correct?

That's how I see it.

[hearthammer]

One quick question on preaching...

Is preaching standing in a pulpit teaching the Word of God or is it evangelizing? A women can be sent out to preach to the lost, those who are not in a church. This is the Gospel being preached to those who have not yet recieved the Word of God. I believe preaching is a misnomer many churches (buildings made with hands) have coined for the man standing up front talking alot on Sunday morning. A teacher teaches the Word of God. A preacher evangelizes to the lost, whether through missions, street witnessing, or ministry work of any kind. Maybe I have it all wrong but we are all called to preach as was set forth by Christ. Yet, not all are called to teach the Word of God. Preachers get people into the church, teachers give depth of earth. Both are needed.
Paul said I planted Apollos watered, but God gave the increase. Paul preached, Apollos taught, God allowed the growth of the new believer.
Talk Care and God Bless

[HannahUK81]

Shanan, I recommend reading the book 'Why Not Women?' by Loren Cunningham. What do you all think about women as missionaries?

[shanan]

Thank you everyone for your imput I am still not sure where to draw the line in regards to preaching/teaching but i will look into it further.

Thanks

Shanan

[Lordhelpme]

I believe I understand what you are saying Rufus. The daughter, even though not married, is still under the authority of her father. Therefore, this still applies to her. Correct?

WHat about those girls or women that do not have fathers? They have no Authority? Or those whose father's molest and rape them? Who would want to be under that authority?

[Rufus]

WHat about those girls or women that do not have fathers? They have no Authority? Or those whose father's molest and rape them? Who would want to be under that authority?

The scenario you are questioning is not God's model. In God's model women have fathers. In God's model, father's don't molest or rape their daughters. Broken models require broken solutions. When the model is followed then come blessings, when sin is served then come curses.

As to who would "want" to be under that authority, I'm not sure that what folks "want" should be the concern. If it was all about what people want, then we would have what we have today where men don't want to submit to God and women don't want to submit to their men (and thus the women aren't submitting to God in the process). I think the better question for those scenarios would be, what saith the Lord?

[chosen_one_31]

I don't see anything wrong with it. God needs workers and i say God bless them that preach man or woman.

[germanJoy]

In the Lord, there is neither male nor female. :-)

[deacon20035]

1 Cor.14:33-35, “For God is not a God of disorder but of peace. As in all the congregations of the saints, 34 women should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the Law says. 35 If they want to inquire about something, they should ask their own husbands at home; for it is disgraceful for a woman to speak in the church.”
This obviously refers to the assembly worship. It contrast speaking “at home” with not speaking “in the church.”
I think Paul is applying a "principle" (male spiritual leadership) to a particular problem there at Corinth. As several people have pointed out in their replies, these are particular women that he is speaking of. They are women who HAVE husbands and also they are women who have husbands that "know" the word of God. If a Christian woman is married to a non-believer, it would make no sense for her to go home and ask him about the Scriptures. I think Paul is referring to the "wives of the prophets" there at Corinth. I think they were "interrupting" the services asking their husbands about things they were prophesying about and Paul is telling them to simply wait till they get home to ask them about their "sermon."
Sometimes people want to say that the teachings about male leadership in church is just a culture thing. It is not just a culture thing - it is a creation thing. 1 Tim.2:11ff, "Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. 12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. 13 For Adam was first formed, then Eve. 14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression."

deacon

[shanan]

Hi germanjoy

Interesting point you brought up about in the lord being neither male of female. If this is the case then we wouldnt be called men and women..... there wouldnt be the distinction but in the bible there are heaps of verses that say "women" or "men" so ........ im confused lol

Thanks

Shanan

[Rufus]

In the Lord, there is neither male nor female. :-)

What do you mean exactly by this statement?

[Rufus]

Hi germanjoy

Interesting point you brought up about in the lord being neither male of female. If this is the case then we wouldnt be called men and women..... there wouldnt be the distinction but in the bible there are heaps of verses that say "women" or "men" so ........ im confused lol

Thanks

Shanan

Did she say the Lord is neither male nor female? I think I'm confused too. :)

[DanV aka FreetoloveGod]

This may or may not help the situation on whether or not women should be pastor/teachers, but it is something to think about.

In Matthew 28:16-20, Jesus said to the eleven disciples (all men): "Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, "teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you;. . . "

In the previous passage, when Jesus spoke to the women who were worshiping the Risen Lord, He said, "Rejoice" and "Do not be afraid. Go and tell My brethren to go to Galilee, and there they will see Me."

Here was a great opportunity for Jesus to tell the women to "Go therefore" and "teach" as He did to the disciples.

Hmmmmmmmmm!!!

God Bless,

Dan

[germanJoy]

Hi germanjoy

Interesting point you brought up about in the lord being neither male of female. If this is the case then we wouldnt be called men and women..... there wouldnt be the distinction but in the bible there are heaps of verses that say "women" or "men" so ........ im confused lol

Thanks

Shanan
Shanan, kindergarden times are over.... as mature individuals we should know by now that the Lord is no respecter of persons. When He poured out His Holy Spirit upon ALL mankind, He did not classify which sexes His Spirit is poured out... you know what I mean, my dear? :-)

[germanJoy]

You pointed out what matters is "what saith the Lord". My response is given, to rephrase it for clarification: In the Lord, it doesn't matter whether you are a male or a female. :-)

[germanJoy]

This may or may not help the situation on whether or not women should be pastor/teachers, but it is something to think about.

In Matthew 28:16-20, Jesus said to the eleven disciples (all men): "Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, "teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you;. . . "

In the previous passage, when Jesus spoke to the women who were worshiping the Risen Lord, He said, "Rejoice" and "Do not be afraid. Go and tell My brethren to go to Galilee, and there they will see Me."

Here was a great opportunity for Jesus to tell the women to "Go therefore" and "teach" as He did to the disciples.

Hmmmmmmmmm!!!

God Bless,

Dan

You left out something: :-)

Jesus said to her (a woman): "Stop clinging to Me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father but go to My brethren, and say to them; 'I ascend to My Father and your Father, and My God and your God. Mary Magdalene (a woman) came announcing to the disciples, "I have seen the Lord," and that He had said these things to her. John 20:17

What??? woman was ANNOUNCING God's Word to the disciples of Jesus??? interesting...hmmmmmm!!! :-)

[allthingspure]

Hi Rufus
I believe this is what germanjoy was referring to....
Galatians 3:26 thru 28 > For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. For as many af you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. For there is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.


allthingspure

[bballjunkiegirl]

I think that women pastors are not bibical. In the Bible it says that women should teach other women and be silent in church. Women are not supposed to teach men. This has nothing to do with men being better then women, but just like the man is supposed to be the head of the house so a man is supposed to be the head of the church.
Does that mean that no one can be saved under a woman pastor? I believe a person can be saved no matter who brings the message.

[Rufus]

Hi Rufus
I believe this is what germanjoy was referring to....
Galatians 3:26 thru 28 > For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. For as many af you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. For there is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
allthingspure

Hi allthingspure,

Thanks for the supporting scripture.

The above passages indicate that both men and women are all in Christ and all children of God by their faith in Jesus Christ. The grace of God brings both women and men to salvation. All praise to Him for his mercy and long-suffering for all of our sakes.

However, salvation is a separate issue from the role of genders in Christ's church. Is someone making the argument that Galatians 3:26-28 is suggesting that there should be "Women pastors/preachers" when the context of the above verses state nothing of the sort? Should men start having babies because all are one in Christ or are there, in fact, distinct differences between the role of a man and the role of a woman, in the temporal family of God?

[DanV aka FreetoloveGod]

You left out something: :-)

Jesus said to her (a woman): "Stop clinging to Me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father but go to My brethren, and say to them; 'I ascend to My Father and your Father, and My God and your God. Mary Magdalene (a woman) came announcing to the disciples, "I have seen the Lord," and that He had said these things to her. John 20:17

What??? woman was ANNOUNCING God's Word to the disciples of Jesus??? interesting...hmmmmmm!!! :-)

I don't understand what this would have to do with pastoring, preaching or teaching :-) ..however, a great passage. This is a great scene at the Garden Tomb.

The other women had gone. Peter and John had gone. Mary Magdalene is there alone, weeping as if her heart would break. No thought that Jesus had risen.

She had not heard the angel announcement that he was alive. Jesus Himself had repeatedly said that he would rise the third day. Somehow she had not understood him. But, oh, how she loved him! And now he was dead. Even his body was gone. In that moment of grief Jesus stood by her, and called her name. She recognized his voice, and cried out in ecstatic joy. Jesus not dead, but alive!

A little later he appeared to the Other Women - Matthew 28:9-10. That afternoon he appeared to the Two - Luke 24:13-32. And to Peter - Luke 24:33-35.

Yes, women did play an important role in the resurrection of Jesus. I don't think we can stretch this into preaching and teaching. Women have a much more important role. It starts in Genesis:

"It is not good that man should be alone; I will make him a helper comparable to him." Not inferior but "comparable" and in the capacity as a "helper." How a pastor/preacher needs the "help" of a woman.

Then in Titus, Paul is teaching on "sound doctrine" and qualities of a sound Chuch in older men and then speaks to "the older women. . . that they be reverent in behavior, not slanderers, not given to much wine, teachers of good things--that they admonish the younger women to love their husbands, to love their children, to be discreet, chaste, homemakers, good obedient to their own husbands, that the word of God may not be blasphemed."

Now if women want to pursue the role of "teacher" here is a very demanding challenge.

God Bless,

Dan

[allthingspure]

Hi again Rufus
Is someone making the argument that Galatians 3:26-28 is suggesting that there should be "Women pastors/preachers" when the context of the above verses state nothing of the sort?

I do not find in Gods Word where a woman can Pastor. I do not believe a woman has the God given ability. It is the man who is the head, not the woman. Personally I think it is rather odd to see a woman preaching.
I do believe a woman can teach the word of God.....example.. if I meet someone who ask questions concerning scriptures, I know with out a doubt that the Lord can use this 'weaker vessel' if need be, to teach.
It is the same Spirit that lives inside the believer, whether male or female. And it is the Spirit that gives the utterance(If It be that they have the Spirit of God):)
A woman cannot 'teach with authority over her husband'.

Should men start having babies because all are one in Christ or are there, in fact, distinct differences between the role of a man and the role of a woman, in the temporal family of God?

Oh My! I sure hope not! :-O lol We need to rightly divide the Word...Spirit is spirit and flesh is flesh.
God Bless
allthingspure

[DanV aka FreetoloveGod]

Hi again Rufus

I do not find in Gods Word where a woman can Pastor. I do not believe a woman has the God given ability. It is the man who is the head, not the woman. Personally I think it is rather odd to see a woman preaching.
I do believe a woman can teach the word of God.....example.. if I meet someone who ask questions concerning scriptures, I know with out a doubt that the Lord can use this 'weaker vessel' if need be, to teach.
It is the same Spirit that lives inside the believer, whether male or female. And it is the Spirit that gives the utterance(If It be that they have the Spirit of God):)
A woman cannot 'teach with authority over her husband'.


Oh My! I sure hope not! :-O lol We need to rightly divide the Word...Spirit is spirit and flesh is flesh.
God Bless
allthingspure


Amen allthingspure, well said ;) I have only two comments to add, which I elaborated somewhat on my post above, and that is Women make excellent 'helpers" as indicated in Genesis; and if any woman has the desire to teach, check out Titus 2 and there you will see an opportunity to do so.

God Bless,

Dan

[Tee828]

Hi Shanan,

I posted this before and felt it worth posting again (others may not agree)below is a partial list of women who were all in influential positions of leadership in the early church.

Pheobe (Romans 16:1-2): This woman was a deaconess of the church in Cenchrea, who was beloved of Paul and many other Christians for the help she gave to them. She filled an important position of leadership. It would be a difficult stretch of the imagination to say that this woman fulfilled her duties without ever speaking in the church!

Priscilla (Acts 18:26): Priscilla and her husband Aquila are often mentioned with great respect by Paul. Together they were pastors of a church in Ephesus, and were responsible for teaching the full gospel to Apollos. We are informed that they both taught Apollos, and pastored the church together. In fact, Priscilla is sometimes listed ahead of Aquila when their names come up. This has led some to speculate that of the two, she was the primary teacher and her husband oversaw the ministry. At any rate, we see here a woman in a very prominent position of teaching and pastoring. (Other references to Priscilla and Aquila are Acts 18:2, 18; Romans 16:3, and I Corinthians 16:19).

Euodia and Syntyche (Philippians 4:2-3): Here we see reference to two women who were "true yokefellow" and who labored with Paul in the advancement of the gospel.

Junia (Romans 16:7): In this verse we see Paul sending greetings to Andronicus and Junia, his "fellow-prisoners" who are of note among the apostles. Junia is a woman's name. In some modern translations, an "s" has been added (Junias) because the translators were so sure a woman could not be an apostle, that they assumed a copyist has accidentally dropped the "s." However the proper male ending would have been "ius," not "ias." No church commentator earlier than the Middle Ages questioned that Junia was both a woman and an apostle.

Though there were other women throughout the Bible in positions of leadership, such as prophetesses, evangelists, judges, leaders, etc., the above references should be enough to establish that women were indeed a vital and normal part of church leadership. Paul expected women to speak in the church, or else why would he have given the following directive? It would have been useless to give directions for women who were speaking in the church, if they were never allowed to do so.

1 Corinthians 11:5, "But every woman that prayeth or prophesieth with her head uncovered dishonoureth her head: for that is even all one as if she were shaven."

Furthermore, if Paul believed that all women should never teach or speak in church, why does he commend many women who did just that?

Lastly, the word Paul use for silence did not mean "shut up" or absolute silence, it more accurately meant "shhh," lower your voices and do not shout out loud.

[DanV aka FreetoloveGod]

Hi Shanan,

I posted this before and felt it worth posting again (others may not agree)below is a partial list of women who were all in influential positions of leadership in the early church.

Pheobe (Romans 16:1-2): This woman was a deaconess of the church in Cenchrea, who was beloved of Paul and many other Christians for the help she gave to them. She filled an important position of leadership. It would be a difficult stretch of the imagination to say that this woman fulfilled her duties without ever speaking in the church!

I'm not Shanan, but I hope you will allow me to comment.

Romans 16:1-2, NKJV: I commend to you Phoebe our sister, who is a servant of the church in Cenchrea, that you may receive her in the Lord in a manner worthy of the saints, and assist her in whatever business she has need of you; for indeed she has been a helper of many and of myself also.

Priscilla (Acts 18:26): Priscilla and her husband Aquila are often mentioned with great respect by Paul. Together they were pastors of a church in Ephesus, and were responsible for teaching the full gospel to Apollos. We are informed that they both taught Apollos, and pastored the church together. In fact, Priscilla is sometimes listed ahead of Aquila when their names come up. This has led some to speculate that of the two, she was the primary teacher and her husband oversaw the ministry. At any rate, we see here a woman in a very prominent position of teaching and pastoring. (Other references to Priscilla and Aquila are Acts 18:2, 18; Romans 16:3, and I Corinthians 16:19).

Acquila and Priscilla, with whom Paul abode in Corinth - Acts 18:2, 3, and who went with him as far as Ephesus - Acts 18:18, 19. There are inscriptions in the catacombs which hint that Priscilla was of a distinguished family of high standing in Rome. She is usually mentioned first. She must have been a woman of unusual talent. Later, in Ephesus a church met in their house - 1 Corinthians 16:19. Later, in Rome, a church met in their house - Romans 16:3-5. Some years later they were again in Ephesus - 2 Timothy 4:19.

In summary, Priscilla and Acquila, had formerly lived in Rome, had been with Paul in Corinth and Ephesus, and had now returned to Rome. A church met in their house.

"[a church met in their house"...similar to groups today meeting in homes for Bible study and fellowship.]

Euodia and Syntyche (Philippians 4:2-3): Here we see reference to two women who were "true yokefellow" and who labored with Paul in the advancement of the gospel.

"I implore Euodia and I implore Syntyche to be of the same mind in the Lord. And I urge you also, true companion, help these women who labored with me in the gospel..." Philippians 4:2-3.

["who labored with me in the gospel"...what is most impressive is found near the end of verse 3: "with Clement also, and the rest of my fellow workers, whose names are in the Book of Life."]

Junia (Romans 16:7): In this verse we see Paul sending greetings to Andronicus and Junia, his "fellow-prisoners" who are of note among the apostles. Junia is a woman's name. In some modern translations, an "s" has been added (Junias) because the translators were so sure a woman could not be an apostle, that they assumed a copyist has accidentally dropped the "s." However the proper male ending would have been "ius," not "ias." No church commentator earlier than the Middle Ages questioned that Junia was both a woman and an apostle.

"Greet Andronicus and Junia, my countrymen and my fellow prisoners, who are of note among the apostles, who also were in Christ before me." - Romans 16:7."

["my countrymen"...Andronicus, Junias (mistranslated Junia), Paul's kinsmen, now old men, for they had been Christians longer than Paul, and in prison with him.]

Though there were other women throughout the Bible in positions of leadership, such as prophetesses, evangelists, judges, leaders, etc., the above references should be enough to establish that women were indeed a vital and normal part of church leadership. Paul expected women to speak in the church, or else why would he have given the following directive? It would have been useless to give directions for women who were speaking in the church, if they were never allowed to do so.

1 Corinthians 11:5, "But every woman that prayeth or prophesieth with her head uncovered dishonoureth her head: for that is even all one as if she were shaven."

Furthermore, if Paul believed that all women should never teach or speak in church, why does he commend many women who did just that?

Lastly, the word Paul use for silence did not mean "shut up" or absolute silence, it more accurately meant "shhh," lower your voices and do not shout out loud.

["But I want you to know that the head of every man is Christ, the head of woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

But every women who prays or prophesies with her head covered, dishonors her head. . . " - 1 Corinthians 11:3, 5.

It was customary in Greek and Eastern cities for women to cover their heads in public, except women of immoral character. Corinth was full of temple prostitutes. Some of the Christian women, taking advantage of their new-found liberty in Christ, were making bold to lay aside their veils in Church meetings, which horrified those of more modest type. They are told not to defy public opinion as to what was considered proper in feminine decorum.

Men and women are of equal value in God's sight. But there are certain natural distinction between women and men without which human society coud not exist. Christian women, living in heathen society, should be cautious in their innovations, lest they bring reproach on their religion. It is bad generally when women become too much like men.]

God Bless,

Dan

[germanJoy]

[B][COLOR="Sienna"]I don't understand what this would have to do with pastoring, preaching or teaching :-) ..however, a great passage. This is a great scene at the Garden Tomb.

Yes, women did play an important role in the resurrection of Jesus. I don't think we can stretch this into preaching and teaching. Women have a much more important role. It starts in Genesis:

However you may call it, either preaching, teaching, prophesying, evangelising, ANNOUNCING, REPORTING, TELLING, WITNESSING etc. it still boils down to one aspect i.e., SPEAKING the WORD OF GOD. According to your stand, women SHOULD NOT SPEAK in the church. If that was so, why was Anna the prophetess SPEAKING in the TEMPLE which is equivalent to the CHURCH of God?

"It is not good that man should be alone; I will make him a helper comparable to him." Not inferior but "comparable" and in the capacity as a "helper." How a pastor/preacher needs the "help" of a woman.

A male pastor needs no "help" from any woman except from his own woman, namely his wife. The problem with guys like you is mixing up the role of a wife to her husband and the role of a woman to the church.

I have gone through this "forbidding of women to speak in the church" discussion, DanV and no one has given me a Scripture yet where Jesus Christ Himself rebuked or forbade a woman to preach. In fact, Jesus allowed a woman to preach, witness or speak about Him and the whole city was converted. Shall I bring you to this Scripture? :-)

[Rufus]

I have gone through this "forbidding of women to speak in the church" discussion, DanV and no one has given me a Scripture yet where Jesus Christ Himself rebuked or forbade a woman to preach.

Sooo...for you to be obedient to or agree with certain doctrines the scripture has to be in red letters? Are you contending that only some scripture is inspired by God?

[germanJoy]

I'm not Shanan, but I hope you will allow me to comment.

Romans 16:1-2, NKJV: I commend to you Phoebe our sister, who is a servant of the church in Cenchrea, that you may receive her in the Lord in a manner worthy of the saints, and assist her in whatever business she has need of you; for indeed she has been a helper of many and of myself also.

I am not Tee828 and I hope that you will allow me to comment on your comment. :-)

Phoebe was to be received in the Lord in the manner worthy of the saints. What is the worth due to a saint in the Lord from those in the church? I can think of some, namely: love, honor, respect, submission and obedience... excuse me what SUBMISSION and OBEDIENCE? No way she was just a servant herself who had to submit and obey to male saints...:-O Or did Paul mean Phoebe deserves EVERYTHING a saint like him deserves. Surely, there were men at Rome who would not accept her BUSINESS, weren't there? Thus, Paul had to instruct them how they should treat her i.e., like they would treat Paul, their leader ....:-)

and HELP her in her business as she had helped others and Paul himself . Why does she need help if her role is to help? :-O

Acquila and Priscilla, with whom Paul abode in Corinth - Acts 18:2, 3, and who went with him as far as Ephesus - Acts 18:18, 19. There are inscriptions in the catacombs which hint that Priscilla was of a distinguished family of high standing in Rome. She is usually mentioned first. She must have been a woman of unusual talent. Later, in Ephesus a church met in their house - 1 Corinthians 16:19. Later, in Rome, a church met in their house - Romans 16:3-5. Some years later they were again in Ephesus - 2 Timothy 4:19.

In summary, Priscilla and Acquila, had formerly lived in Rome, had been with Paul in Corinth and Ephesus, and had now returned to Rome. A church met in their house.

"[a church met in their house"...similar to groups today meeting in homes for Bible study and fellowship.][/B]


Can you tell me of any other place where the church meets at the early times except for houses, living quarters and upper rooms? Did you know that the early Apostles never intended to build church buildings like what we have today? :-)

"I implore Euodia and I implore Syntyche to be of the same mind in the Lord. And I urge you also, true companion, help these women who labored with me in the gospel..." Philippians 4:2-3.

["who labored with me in the gospel"...what is most impressive is found near the end of verse 3: "with Clement also, and the rest of my fellow workers, whose names are in the Book of Life."]

Rightly said, those women who labored with Paul (when Paul preached, they preached...when Paul taught, they taught...when Paul led, they led...when Paul risked his life, they risked their lives) are in the Book of Life. :)

"Greet Andronicus and Junia, my countrymen and my fellow prisoners, who are of note among the apostles, who also were in Christ before me." - Romans 16:7."

["my countrymen"...Andronicus, Junias (mistranslated Junia), Paul's kinsmen, now old men, for they had been Christians longer than Paul, and in prison with him.]

How do you address a woman who is your countryman especially if she is counted among a group of countrymen? :-)

["But I want you to know that the head of every man is Christ, the head of woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

But every women who prays or prophesies with her head covered, dishonors her head. . . " - 1 Corinthians 11:3, 5.

It was customary in Greek and Eastern cities for women to cover their heads in public, except women of immoral character. Corinth was full of temple prostitutes. Some of the Christian women, taking advantage of their new-found liberty in Christ, were making bold to lay aside their veils in Church meetings, which horrified those of more modest type. They are told not to defy public opinion as to what was considered proper in feminine decorum.

Men and women are of equal value in God's sight. But there are certain natural distinction between women and men without which human society coud not exist. Christian women, living in heathen society, should be cautious in their innovations, lest they bring reproach on their religion. It is bad generally when women become too much like men.]

God Bless,

Dan

It is impossible for women to become like men and vice-versa. That would be perversion which the heathen society promotes creating more gays, lesbians and the like. It is this fear of perversion that had hindered many women to assume responsibilities at church and had encouraged men to forbid women to do so. The battle of sexes became a tool of the enemy to bring dissensions and divisions in the world as well as in the body of Christ. As christians, we are no longer under the spirit of fear but of freedom. Our freedom in Christ is to be exercised in full submission to the opportunities of the Holy Spirit and not of the flesh. To speak or preach in church is a work and an opportunity of the Holy Spirit which women should be free to exercise.

In the Lord, neither is a man dependent of a woman and a woman dependent of a man. But a woman carries on her head a symbol of authority and thus she needs the authority of her husband in whatever she does. Since husbands have different ways of implementing their authorities over their wives, different situations at the churches became evident. And for this reason, the Word of God is silent as to the clear function of the women in the church for it all depends on their husbands. Thus, when Paul spoke that women should be silent at the church, he was referring to the wives whose husbands did not allow them to speak at the church. And this explains why this instruction contradicts not Anna speaking at the temple of God. Anna was a widow and had no husband forbidding her to speak.

The Lord gives the command:
The women who proclaim the good tidings are a great host. Psalms 68:11

germanJoy
authorized by her husband to speak in the church :)

[deacon20035]

Hello everyone,

I am still very new to the workings of this site, I hope I post things correctly. I have a feeling I have messed up somewhere. lol

Tee, you set forth some very good arguments in favor of your belief but you did not spend much time answering the arguments that are set forth against your position.

Pheobe (Romans 16:1-2): This woman was a deaconess of the church in Cenchrea, who was beloved of Paul and many other Christians for the help she gave to them. She filled an important position of leadership. It would be a difficult stretch of the imagination to say that this woman fulfilled her duties without ever speaking in the church!

First of all, one cannot be sure she was an "official deaconess". The word for "deacon" is the word for "servant" and often it is not used in the "offical" church officer sense. Secondly, I know many deacons who have never "preached" or "taught" a class in the assembly. Pheobe may very well have followed Paul's instructions to others about women "speaking" in church.

Priscilla (Acts 18:26): Priscilla and her husband Aquila are often mentioned with great respect by Paul. Together they were pastors of a church in Ephesus, and were responsible for teaching the full gospel to Apollos. We are informed that they both taught Apollos, and pastored the church together. In fact, Priscilla is sometimes listed ahead of Aquila when their names come up. This has led some to speculate that of the two, she was the primary teacher and her husband oversaw the ministry. At any rate, we see here a woman in a very prominent position of teaching and pastoring. (Other references to Priscilla and Aquila are Acts 18:2, 18; Romans 16:3, and I Corinthians 16:19).

Where does it say that Priscilla was a pastor? Where are we "informed that both pastored the church together"? As for teaching Apollos, do not overlook the fact that they "took him aside" and taught him privately, not in the assembly. Acts 18:26 (NASB) "But when Priscilla and Aquila heard him, they took him aside and explained to him the way of God more accurately." (NIV), "they invited him to their home and explained to him the way of God more adequately."

Euodia and Syntyche (Philippians 4:2-3): Here we see reference to two women who were "true yokefellow" and who labored with Paul in the advancement of the gospel.

Phil.4:2-3 (NIV), "I plead with Euodia and I plead with Syntyche to agree with each other in the Lord. 3 Yes, and I ask you, loyal yokefellow, help these women who have contended at my side in the cause of the gospel." I do not know who the "true yokefellow" was Paul is referring to in this passage, but it is clearly someone else besides these two women. It is very true that they labored with Paul in the advancement of the gospel. But it is not just the pastors and preachers and teachers in the assembly that do this. There are many people that labor for the cause of Christ without ever getting into the pulpit.


Junia (Romans 16:7): In this verse we see Paul sending greetings to Andronicus and Junia, his "fellow-prisoners" who are of note among the apostles. Junia is a woman's name. In some modern translations, an "s" has been added (Junias) because the translators were so sure a woman could not be an apostle, that they assumed a copyist has accidentally dropped the "s." However the proper male ending would have been "ius," not "ias." No church commentator earlier than the Middle Ages questioned that Junia was both a woman and an apostle.

Rom.16:7, (NASB) "Greet Andronicus and Junias, my kinsmen, and my fellow prisoners, who are outstanding among the apostles, who also were in Christ before me." It may be that "Junias" is a woman, and it may be that Junias is a man - we simply cannot know for sure. R. C. H. Lensky (a great Greek scholar) writes, "This is Junias, a man, not Junia, a woman." I grant that Junias may be a woman, but not that she was an apostle of the group of which Paul was an apostle. The text does not say that these two were apostles but only that they were, as you put it, "of note among the apostles." This simply indicates they were known and respected by the Apostles.

It is breakfast time here in Arkansas. I will try to repond to the remainder of what Tee said later today.

Sincerely,
deacon

[Wendell]

germanJoy, I read your posts here, and you are very free to post your views here... I would willingly enter in to discussions with you on most any subject, in most any setting, and listen carefully to anything you would have to say... but... If, when I was attending a worship service, withing the setting of an organized congregation of believers, with a recognized leadership; If you were to get up and lead a bible school class, or speak from the pulpit, I would get up, and excuse myself, taking my family with me. I would not do this to offend you, or to offend your husband, or to antagonize the church leadership. But if need be, I would rather offend all of the above, rather than offend my Father in Heaven.

Women have been greatly used of God in building the kingdom of God.. but for that one thing... I have listened to many arguements promoting women as elders bishops, and pastors, but have seen no biblical evidence that such is the will of God. Frankly, for me, it is not a real issue.... but rather an evidence, that God has forsaken the churches. Women occupying positions of church leadership, is just one of many symptoms, demonstrating that the churches have forsaken Gods word as their authority, and have come under the influence of strong delusion, and also, one of those many conditions in the churches that cause true believers, "great tribulation", as they witness the complete destruction of that which once was the physical representation of the Kingdom of God on earth, in all her beauty and glory...but has now become the great whore...

2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
2Th 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.


Rev 18:4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.

Rev 18:9 And the kings of the earth, who have committed fornication and lived deliciously with her, shall bewail her, and lament for her, when they shall see the smoke of her burning,
Rev 18:10 Standing afar off for the fear of her torment, saying, Alas, alas, that great city Babylon, that mighty city! for in one hour is thy judgment come.
Rev 18:11 And the merchants of the earth shall weep and mourn over her; for no man buyeth their merchandise any more:
Rev 18:12 The merchandise of gold, and silver, and precious stones, and of pearls, and fine linen, and purple, and silk, and scarlet, and all thyine wood, and all manner vessels of ivory, and all manner vessels of most precious wood, and of brass, and iron, and marble,
Rev 18:13 And cinnamon, and odours, and ointments, and frankincense, and wine, and oil, and fine flour, and wheat, and beasts, and sheep, and horses, and chariots, and slaves, and souls of men.

Rev 13:9 If any man have an ear, let him hear.

[Wendell]

Sooo...for you to be obedient to or agree with certain doctrines the scripture has to be in red letters? Are you contending that only some scripture is inspired by God?

You are correct, Rufus.. Red letter editions, have done a great diservice to believers in highlighting the words, "spoken by Jesus". I include the King James Version, when it has been guilty of such an editorial practice. The idea is that, the words are in red, because they were spoken by Jesus himself, and are somehow more authoritative that those in black, because they were written by mere men...

This idea is a contradiction to the biblical rule, that "ALL" scripture is given by inspiration of God... Every word in the Bible is the Word of God, not just the ones in red, and "every", word has the same authority as Gods word, whether it is red or black, and every word is to be obeyed and for the purpose for which it was sent..

2Ti 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
2Ti 3:17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

If we have ears to hear, "All Scripture", we will know that for a woman to seek or be promoted to the office of pastor elder bishop, is not a "good work".. but is rather disobedience to the one who is the Word.

Joh 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

blue.

[Rufus]

You are correct, Rufus.. Red letter editions, have done a great diservice to believers in highlighting the words, "spoken by Jesus". I include the King James Version, when it has been guilty of such an editorial practice. The idea is that, the words are in red, because they were spoken by Jesus himself, and are somehow more authoritative that those in black, because they were written by mere men...


I agree heartily with all but one of your stated points. I would contend that a Bible Version should not be held liable for another, perhaps, ill-advised 20th century decision. The guilt or credit belongs to Mr. Klopsch and did not occur until 288 years after the KJV was originally released. I wonder if this decision truly did no harm as his mentor believed:

Seizing upon the symbolism of blood, Klopsch asked Dr. Talmage if Christ’s words could not be printed in red. His mentor replied: “It could do no harm and it most certainly could do much good.”

(Source: The Story Behind: Red Letter Bible Editions (http://www.biblecollectors.org/red_letter_bible.htm))

[Lordhelpme]

The scenario you are questioning is not God's model. In God's model women have fathers. In God's model, father's don't molest or rape their daughters. Broken models require broken solutions. When the model is followed then come blessings, when sin is served then come curses.

As to who would "want" to be under that authority, I'm not sure that what folks "want" should be the concern. If it was all about what people want, then we would have what we have today where men don't want to submit to God and women don't want to submit to their men (and thus the women aren't submitting to God in the process). I think the better question for those scenarios would be, what saith the Lord?


God's model was broken when Adam and Even sinned. Therefore, the curse of sin is upon ALL MANKIND. The only redemption is through Christ. In God's model He only sees His Son He sacrificed to bring all human kind back to Him. No matter how "Good" a person is or a father is, if Christ isn't there the curse is still upon him and his family.

As to who would want to be under that authority is the concern. The Word of God states His protection for His people. It states His love and promises endlessly for us. I would never tell a woman or young girl to stay in the presence of a father who would do such things. Jesus died so that we may have life and have it more abundantly.

Blood is thicker than water and Jesus' blood is the thickest.

[Wendell]

I include the King James Version, when it has been guilty of such an editorial practice.

let me rephrase that for you...:-)

I include the modern publishers of the King James Version when they have been guilty of such an editorial practice.

Hows that..?? :-D

blue..

[Rufus]

let me rephrase that for you...:-)

I include the modern publishers of the King James Version when they have been guilty of such an editorial practice.

Hows that..?? :-D

blue..

Better. What if we made just one or two slight changes to your response?

I include the modern publishers of the inerrant, infallible Word of God in the English language, also known as the King James Version, when they have been guilty of such an editorial practice.


How's that? ;)

[Tee828]

Hi GermanJoy,

Thank you for your response, I started to reply, but realized that this is a useless debate. People whose minds are set, will stay that way and others who are seeking the truth will allow the Holy Ghost to direct their lives.

You are so true in what you say about the church. I have said it time and time again, the church is not a building, WE ARE THE CHURCH! So how can someone tell you not to speak from your body that the Lord resides in. Christ never told anyone to build a church, He said, "upon this rock I WILL BUILD MY CHURCH..." The Lord spoke in the old testament and even gave a blueprint for how the Temple was to be built, but nowhere in the new testament did He tell anyone to build a church, in fact, in Acts 17:24 it says, "God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands;" so this again lets us know where the Lord dwells.

The less time I try to debate whether a woman can preach, the more time I have to study the word of God and pray over the sermons He gives me to preach.

So thank you again for your wisdom, I will let others continue to debate this, I have some studying to do in preparation for my next sermon;) AMEN!

[Ron22]

ok i am a lil confused here, I have read this whole thing, and the only scripture that has been given is that women are not to be pastors, thank you for the scripture rufas, now, i am waiting for a scripture that says a women can be a bishop or pastor, is there actually a verse?
and i don't think I read anyone respond to the verse that ministers are to be the husband of but one wife? what is the argument to that? is there one? can a woman be a husband? i am not meaning to be rude, I am just wondering, i am a 21 yr old guy, and just want to know if there is really scripture to back this up?

[DanV aka FreetoloveGod]

It seems to me, that Paul made it very clear in I Timothy 2:12, concerning women teachers, which would include Pastors and Preachers, because that, in my opinion, is the basic reason for being a Pastor/Preacher; and that is to Teach. "And I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man, but to be in silence."

Why is it that we praise Paul for all his other statements, but this one seems to be hotly debated; when, in all acutuality, it is very clear and conclusive.

That is my final comment on this subject.

God Bless,

Dan

[allthingspure]

Hi Ron,

ok i am a lil confused here, I have read this whole thing, and the only scripture that has been given is that women are not to be pastors, thank you for the scripture rufas, now, i am waiting for a scripture that says a women can be a bishop or pastor, is there actually a verse?
and i don't think I read anyone respond to the verse that ministers are to be the husband of but one wife? what is the argument to that? is there one? can a woman be a husband? i am not meaning to be rude, I am just wondering, i am a 21 yr old guy, and just want to know if there is really scripture to back this up?


To answer your question, there is no scriptures that say a woman can be a Pastor or deacon. 1 Timothy 3:2 > A bishop then must be blameless,the husband of one wife vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach. ( notice it did not say the wife of one husband, a bishop must be a man.

1 Timothy 3: 10 thru 12 > And let these also first be proved; then let them use the office of a decon, being found blameless. Even so must their wives be grave, not slanderers, sober, faithful in all things. Let the deacons be the husbands of one wife, ruling their children and their houses well.

A woman cannot, be a bishop/pastor nor a deacon, she cannot teach with authority over her husband.
A woman can be a Prophetess, and a helper, she can teach Gods Word, but not in the position where she teaches with authority over her husband.
God Bless

allthingspure

[DJT]

What about Ruth, did she not have authority and given that authority by God. I believe Pual (2Tim2:11) was referring to women and there social status, back in the day, well way back in the day in this case, women where treated how some societies treat women today, second class. And again this is my thoughts, Paul was just saying b/c women were not formally educated as the men, they have no right to say a thing. and what about prophesy there are women prophets in the Bible,...In short if a women is on fire for God who am i to stop you from communicating the truth...

[BBYN]

Shanan- I think that it is wrong to have Women pastors.. i know there are some scriptures somewhere about it. Joyce Meyer, i think, is just a women evangilist.. but im not too sure.
Sorry if I didnt help out too much lol
-Blessed
:-)

[OneJoe]

Did Paul say women should keep quiet because they are stupid or somehow less educated than men? I often hear statements about how women were looked upon by others and the social impact this had; however, the bible does not teach that. You said women were treated second class. Where do you gather this statement as fact? According to the bible, women were praised for the work they performed in spreading the Gospel. Paul said women should keep quiet in the churches. He was laying down order, not being a sexist pig that many make him out to be. To say Paul set down this rule or sense of order because women were not educated would make no sense. If they looked down upon by society, why then were they allowed to help in spreading the Gospel? As for women prophets, many people prophecied the word of God as truth. Yes even women served in spreading the word of God, but there is no proof they were allowed to teach in the churches; however, there is no doubt Paul said women should keep quiet in the churches. Notice the word "churches". Paul did not use the word church in a singular sense, but rather a plural sense. He was not meaning only the church at Corinth but rather all churches, synogouges, or meetings which result in a congregation over seen by a Pastor, deacon, bishop, etc.

[shanan]

Hi

Well thank you all for your responses, i am still reading on the subject and i hope that my heart will be convicted to the right way.

God Bless everyone!

Shanan

[Tychicus]

I feel it is a sign of the times and the work of the enemy that only serves to create dissension in the ranks of Christians.

How plain can it be? Read the bible do not try and change the verses but rather listen and learn of Gods glorius plan, his ways are perfect!

Too many churches today try to pander to popular trends and to mankind, ie..Homosexual pastors and women at the pulpit, when if you read the Holy word of God it is quite plainly explained.

God did not intend for women to be looked down upon and any person who has read the bible can see that women have had many powerful roles througout history.

However when we try to change the message and meaning of scripture to fit our own particular idioms we are in peril of our immortal souls.

[Ron22]

thank you allthingspure, i know there is no scripture to back up women preachers, i was jus wanting to see if someone had scripture that i'd missed.
and thank you for being so clear on the subject Joe and ty, it is pretty clear in scripture what God says. my dad was talking to a a 18 yr old girl who said she feels that God has called her to preach, dad gave her the verses all you have brought up, and then she answered just like all the others have answered, i FEEL that i should preach because i WANT to.
and as dad told her, we don't go be feelings or wants, as a christian we go by what scripture teaches.
thank you all

[allthingspure]

1 Cor.14:34-35
Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience as also saith the law. And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church." Verse 36 > What? came the word of God out from you? or came it to you only?

I think a lot of the confusion comes from misunderstanding these scriptures.
Now we know that a bishops and deacons must be men because women are weaker vessels and are helpers for their husbands.
And we know that women are not to teach with authority over their husbands. This does not mean that a woman cannot teach, but it does mean that she cannot (or will not) teach with authority over her husband.

But the above scriptures are speaking of unlearned women who ask questions during the meetings. They would ask their husbands what came the word of God out from you? That is why the scripture says if they will learn anything. This does not mean a learned woman cannot speak in the services, else how could a woman which is a prophetess, prophesy.
1 Cor.14:23 > If therefore the whole church (the church consist of men and women) be come together into one place, and all speak with tongues, and there come in those that are unlearned, or unbelievers, will they not say that ye are mad? 24> But if all prophesy, and there come in one that believeth not, or one unlearned, he is convienced of all, he is judged of all:
Verse 29> Let the prophets speak two or three, and let the other judge.
Verse 31> For ye may all prophesy one by one, that all may learn, and all may be comforted.
Then it goes on to say let your women keep silent in the churches, and it goes on to explain why their women should be silent, they were women who were unlearned, and they were asking questions during service....I don't know how anyone can learn if they are talking instead of listening.:)
God is not the author of confusion, He would not give a woman the gift of prophesy then turn around and tell her to keep silent.
A woman can teach the Gospel, but she cannot be in a position of authority over her husband.
God Bless
allthingspure

[germanJoy]

germanJoy, I read your posts here, and you are very free to post your views here... I would willingly enter in to discussions with you on most any subject, in most any setting, and listen carefully to anything you would have to say... but... If, when I was attending a worship service, withing the setting of an organized congregation of believers, with a recognized leadership; If you were to get up and lead a bible school class, or speak from the pulpit, I would get up, and excuse myself, taking my family with me. I would not do this to offend you, or to offend your husband, or to antagonize the church leadership. But if need be, I would rather offend all of the above, rather than offend my Father in Heaven.

blue, I thank you in the spirit of humility for your kindness by allowing me to express my views on this particular issue. I know and I have recognized the heavy friction these arguments have brought to the believers. Since there is/are NO Scripture/s that clearly REBUKES, FORBIDS and CONDEMNS WOMEN (except for those UNAUTHORIZED by their husbands) who speak at the church or serves in the five-fold ministry as pastors, evangelists, teachers, prophets, and apostles as well as in any offices like bishops, deacons, etc., this topic will never come to an end. And as long as there is/are NO Scripture/s that DISFELLOWSHIPS a believer, who allows women a leadership position in the church, from the body of Christ, tolerance of opinion is expected from one another. If I would be led by the Holy Spirit of God to speak in any place at any time, I would obey and not grieve Him. If you would walk out with your family, I would speak forth blessings upon you and your family. For I recognized your PREPROGRATIVE as a husband and father to exercise your OWN AUTHORITY over your own family and that one, blue, is GODLY. :-)

If I do what the Father tells me to do, He will not be offended. For as a BELIEVER of Jesus Christ, I am bound to obey His Word:

For it is not you who speak, but it is the Spirit of your Father who speaks in you. Matthew 10:20

Therefore, if we only understand WHO REALLY IS THE ONE speaking in the Church today, these arguments will on a second thought indeed come to an end. :)

Women have been greatly used of God in building the kingdom of God.. but for that one thing... I have listened to many arguements promoting women as elders bishops, and pastors, but have seen no biblical evidence that such is the will of God. Frankly, for me, it is not a real issue.... but rather an evidence, that God has forsaken the churches. Women occupying positions of church leadership, is just one of many symptoms, demonstrating that the churches have forsaken Gods word as their authority, and have come under the influence of strong delusion, and also, one of those many conditions in the churches that cause true believers, "great tribulation", as they witness the complete destruction of that which once was the physical representation of the Kingdom of God on earth, in all her beauty and glory...but has now become the great whore...

True enough we need biblical evidences to prove what the will of God is. And that is the whole point of this argument. There is neither biblical proof that there were female elders, bishops, pastors nor any biblical proof that there were none.

We should consider that in most languages if not all, the masculine form is predominantly used in general terms like for instance "countrymen, sons of God, pronoun usage of disciples or angels of God is "he/his" not "she/her", etc. But this does not invalidate the fact that there are female disciples or believers of Christ. Thus, in writing instructions it becomes self-explanatory that the "masculine" form is widely used like deacons (instead of deaconess), prophets (in the 5-fold ministry instead of prophetess) and words like pastors, elders, teachers, bishops have no "feminine" forms. This form of writing does not automatically mean that the said functions were strictly for men only. As for the argument why Jesus chose male disciples only, the simple explanation to this is because He is a man and He is to be "in the company" of men just as "women are in the company of women". There was no other proper way otherwise the devil would find a stronghold to pervert His ministry. If the world of lies nowadays would link Jesus with Mary Magdalene, just imagine how things would have become had Jesus chosen female disciples. But what did Jesus really say who His disciple is or not? Whoever does not carry his own cross and come after Me cannot be My disciple. Luke 14:27 Should we exclude women from this word "disciple"? I hope not!

Rev 18:4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.

Rev 18:9 And the kings of the earth, who have committed fornication and lived deliciously with her, shall bewail her, and lament for her, when they shall see the smoke of her burning,
Rev 18:10 Standing afar off for the fear of her torment, saying, Alas, alas, that great city Babylon, that mighty city! for in one hour is thy judgment come.
Rev 18:11 And the merchants of the earth shall weep and mourn over her; for no man buyeth their merchandise any more:
Rev 18:12 The merchandise of gold, and silver, and precious stones, and of pearls, and fine linen, and purple, and silk, and scarlet, and all thyine wood, and all manner vessels of ivory, and all manner vessels of most precious wood, and of brass, and iron, and marble,
Rev 18:13 And cinnamon, and odours, and ointments, and frankincense, and wine, and oil, and fine flour, and wheat, and beasts, and sheep, and horses, and chariots, and slaves, and souls of men.

Rev 13:9 If any man have an ear, let him hear.

Here is one of the few exceptions to the rule. The pronoun usage of the words "city and church" is a "she/her", feminine form not masculine form as widely used. Here we need to keep in mind that these verses you use STRICTLY refers to the city Babylon and the apostate church but is never meant to refer to THE WOMEN speaking in the church in general. Thus, the "her and the she" here to be directed to "women" do not apply to the rule of apostacy and falling away.

Always seeking the truth and ready to learn from the body of Christ, the Words of Christ and the Spirit of our Father, I remain.

germanJoy

[germanJoy]

Amen! allthingspure....great post :-)

[Rufus]

1 Cor.14:34-35
Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience as also saith the law. And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church." Verse 36 > What? came the word of God out from you? or came it to you only?

I think a lot of the confusion comes from misunderstanding these scriptures.
Now we know that a bishops and deacons must be men because women are weaker vessels and are helpers for their husbands.
And we know that women are not to teach with authority over their husbands. This does not mean that a woman cannot teach, but it does mean that she cannot (or will not) teach with authority over her husband.

But the above scriptures are speaking of unlearned women who ask questions during the meetings. They would ask their husbands what came the word of God out from you? That is why the scripture says if they will learn anything. This does not mean a learned woman cannot speak in the services, else how could a woman which is a prophetess, prophesy.
1 Cor.14:23 > If therefore the whole church (the church consist of men and women) be come together into one place, and all speak with tongues, and there come in those that are unlearned, or unbelievers, will they not say that ye are mad? 24> But if all prophesy, and there come in one that believeth not, or one unlearned, he is convienced of all, he is judged of all:
Verse 29> Let the prophets speak two or three, and let the other judge.
Verse 31> For ye may all prophesy one by one, that all may learn, and all may be comforted.
Then it goes on to say let your women keep silent in the churches, and it goes on to explain why their women should be silent, they were women who were unlearned, and they were asking questions during service....I don't know how anyone can learn if they are talking instead of listening.:)
God is not the author of confusion, He would not give a woman the gift of prophesy then turn around and tell her to keep silent.
A woman can teach the Gospel, but she cannot be in a position of authority over her husband.
God Bless
allthingspure

Allthings,
I might tend to agree with this argument if the scripture only read:

"Let your [unlearned] women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience as also saith the law."

However, since I am so adverse to adding to God's Word, I think it prudent to stick with what He said:

"Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience as also saith the law." - 1 Corinthians 14:34

In the above verse, there is no qualifier for which women. It does not say tall women, short women, obedient women, rebellious women, learned women, unlearned women, it just says "women". This would suggest all women in the church.

Moving to the next verse:

"And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church." - 1 Corinthians 14:35

The question becomes who are the "they" being referred to? In the previous verse we know that it was referring to "women", not "learned women", not ignorant "women" but "women". Thus if women are to learn any thing they should ask their husbands at home: and they should not speak in the church for it is the nearly forgotten condition of "shame".

Now I expect the next argument might be that this instruction was only to the women in the church of Corinth. This too is in error as all instruction to all churches applies to all churches. For example, Corinth getting in trouble for allowing a man to sleep with his father's wife and not rebuking and applying church discipline to the situation, applies to all churches. I would expect that there wouldn't be much argument over this. However, when it comes to a doctrine that rebellious women don't like, they tend to accept the arguments given by apostate women "preachers" and liberal men preachers. Paul, inspired by God, addressed this issue as well.

"This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come.For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy,Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good,Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts," - 2 Timothy 3:1-6

[Recycled]

"Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience as also saith the law." - 1 Corinthians 14:34
In the above verse, there is no qualifier for which women. It does not say tall women, short women, obedient women, rebellious women, learned women, unlearned women, it just says "women". This would suggest all women in the church.

Moving to the next verse:

"And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church." - 1 Corinthians 14:35
I may be able to shed some light on this subject. Here's what I was taught in college concerning this passage of scripture.

The men and women were separated, with the men sitting on one side of the aisle, the women on the other. The women were instructed to remain silent in the churches in order to maintain order, since some women would simply shout a question or comment to her husband in the midst of an assembly. We all know how disruptive that could be.

Kindest regards,

Recycled

[Recycled]

allthingspure, you present a very reasonable argument, one that I am not prepared to dispute. However, please review my comment farther down this thread.

Kindest reagards,

Recycled

[germanJoy]

However, since I am so adverse to adding to God's Word, I think it prudent to stick with what He said:

"Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience as also saith the law." - 1 Corinthians 14:34
In the above verse, there is no qualifier for which women. It does not say tall women, short women, obedient women, rebellious women, learned women, unlearned women, it just says "women". This would suggest all women in the church.

Moving to the next verse:

"And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church." - 1 Corinthians 14:35
Rufus, excuse me for interrupting... let us be very honest with another. If 1 Cor. 14:35 applies to all women speaking in all churches, was it then a shame for Anna to speak in the temple of God, the holy place?

And there was a prophetess, Anna the daughter of Phanuel, of the tribe of Asher. She was advanced in years, having lived with a husband seven years after her marriage, and then as a widow to the age of 84. And she never left the temple, serving night and day with fasting and prayers. And at that very moment she came up and began giving thans to God, and continued to speak of Him to all those who were looking for the redemption of Jerusalem. Luke 2:36-37

I wish to be enligthened with this exception of a woman speaking at the temple, the very typical "church building" of the known holy place of God.

If women (in general) speaking in church were a shame, then the fact remains that Anna being a woman was a shame, too. Unless we settle with the idea that this shameful "women" were exclusively referred to as the "wives" exercising teaching authority in the church without their husband's covering or women teaching their husbands in the church, Anna cannot be condemned by your presumption.

Analysing the WHOLE CONTEXT of 1 Corinthians Chapter 14 verse 34 until 36, one realizes that Paul was driving a point which he emphasized in verse 36 starting and ending up with a question in relation to the statements made in verses 34 and 35. What Paul concluded is "Men, what made you think that the Word of God came from you only?" To reconcile the point of verse 36 with verses 34 and 35, Paul can only be interpreted here as just quoting a "principle or practice" in the churches. And his conclusion was at the end of his statement, verse 36 saying "the Word of God came to ALL, both men and women.

34 Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience as also saith the law.

35 And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.

36 What? came the word of God out from you? or came it unto you only?
1 Cor. 14:34-36

Hoping for your clarification.

Respectfully yours,

germanJoy

[Rufus]

Rufus, excuse me for interrupting... let us be very honest with another. If 1 Cor. 14:35 applies to all women speaking in all churches, was it then a shame for Anna to speak in the temple of God, the holy place?"

Tell you what...I will advocate for and take no issue with, the first example of a contemporary woman who maintains her virginity up to her marriage and 7 years after. Then after becoming a widow stays in a church/temple and does nothing but prayer and fasting and praising God. What a marvelous example of a servant of God that Anna was. Of course, even Anna wasn't confused about her gender for there is no evidence of her attempting to be a pastor, deacon or elder nor is their evidence of her attempting to have authority over men, nor is their evidence of her speaking in front of or during an assembly. I suspect she had a heart for the whole counsel of God.

[LightofLifeMinister]

Psalms 68:11
The Lord gave the command; a great company of women brought the good news.....

Holman Christian Standard Bible

[Rufus]

Psalms 68:11
The Lord gave the command; a great company of women brought the good news.....

Holman Christian Standard Bible

"The Lord gave the word: great was the company of those that published it." - Psalms 68:11 (KJV)

[Wendell]

I may be able to shed some light on this subject. Here's what I was taught in college concerning this passage of scripture.

The men and women were separated, with the men sitting on one side of the aisle, the women on the other. The women were instructed to remain silent in the churches in order to maintain order, since some women would simply shout a question or comment to her husband in the midst of an assembly. We all know how disruptive that could be.



no recycled, you have shed no light, only more darkness...and you have added a fairy tale as well... this notion has been mentioned here many times, but it is still a fairy tale that perverse theologians use to explain away the clear teaching of scripture.. The situation you have described above is never mentioned in the bible... so to introduce it as an explanation for why GOD said, let the women keep silence, is disingenuous at best. You are attempting to mislead and deceive, those who would read this thread, or others discussing this topic. As many have said, the bible is clear. And as germanJoy has admitted, there is no record of an elder, bishop, or pastor of a congregation that was a woman.. The burden of proof lies with the innovators, not with those who have historically followed the practice of biblical christianity. The bible alone and in its entirety is the divine authority. Any thing else, as Paul, speaking under the inspiration of GOD, the Holy Spirit, is so much dung... Perhaps you enjoy digging in dung...:-) I prefer to search for answers to matters of faith and practice in Gods holy Word...

blue

[Wendell]

Also germanjoy...

As has been stated before; Anna was an old testament believer, she would have been in the outer court, just as every other worshipper would have been who was not qualified to minister as a priest.. The equivelant of a pastor bishop or elder, in the old testament would have been to fulfill the ministry of a priest. In all the old testament, there was NEVER a woman who officiated before God in the office of priest...God is the same, yesterday today and forever. He did not change from the new testament, to the oldtestament, and he is not making exceptions for the innovators today. Those who lust after woman pastors, will never be able to use the Bible, or claim God has been misunderstood all these thousands of years.. And as has already been said before.. it is no shame for certain offices to be withheld from women.... they are also withheld from most men..

blue..

[Wendell]

Psalms 68:11
The Lord gave the command; a great company of women brought the good news.....

Holman Christian Standard Bible

This translation, which includes the phrase, "of women", has no justification in the original whatsoever..... In other words, it is a dishonest translation; Intentionally or not it is being used here to deceive...

blue

[LightofLifeMinister]

Rufus and Blue,

"to proclaim the year of the LORD's favor, and the day of our God's vengeance..." Isaiah 61:2

"The tumult reaches to the ends of the earth because the LORD brings a case against the nations. He enters into judgment with all flesh. As for the wicked, He hands them over to the sword [This is] the LORD's declaration." Jeremiah 25:31

"I tell you that on the day of judgment people will have to account for every careless word they speak." Matthew 12:36

"This, then, is the judgment: the light has come into the world, and people loved darkness rather than the light because their deeds were evil." John 3:19

"When I say to the wicked, 'O wicked man, you will surely die,' and you do not speak out to dissuade him from his ways, that wicked man will die for his sin, and I will hold you accountable for his blood." Ezekiel 33:8

[allthingspure]

ahh Rufus here we go again...lol
1 Cor.14:34-35
Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience as also saith the law. And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church." Verse 36 > What? came the word of God out from you? or came it to you only?

We know that these women were unlearned or else they would not have been asking..What came the word of God from? or came it to you only?
Paul made the statement that the women should remain silent, then he let us know why that he made that statement, because they were asking questions that should be asked at home. We cannot use one verse and not use the others. To get the full understanding we must read the whole counsel of God, and not just hang on to one verse like it is the only one there.

1 Cor.14:23 > If therefore the whole church (the church consist of men and women) be come together into one place, and all speak with tongues, and there come in those that are unlearned, or unbelievers, will they not say that ye are mad? 24> But if all prophesy, and there come in one that believeth not, or one unlearned, he is convienced of all, he is judged of all:
Verse 29> Let the prophets speak two or three, and let the other judge.
Verse 31> For ye may all prophesy one by one, that all may learn, and all may be comforted.


Do you not believe that God gives women the gifts of the spirit?
Do you not believe that God has given women the gift to prophesy?
What of these verse? Do you not agree that women are a part of Gods people? Do you not agree that the women were included in the (all) spoken of in these verses?

Now I could do as you did and use one verse........ and not the others around it
V. 38 But if any man be ignorant, let him be ignorant.
God Bless
allthingspure

[Rufus]

ahh Rufus here we go again...lol
1 Cor.14:34-35
Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience as also saith the law. And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church." Verse 36 > What? came the word of God out from you? or came it to you only?

We know that these women were unlearned or else they would not have been asking..What came the word of God from? or came it to you only?

Whereas women today have it all figured out? You don't ask question now? I am a man and based on your definition, and I don't mind saying, I am unlearned for I have yet to stop asking questions. The man or woman who proclaims that they are learned and have no need of questions is a deceiver.


Paul made the statement that the women should remain silent, then he let us know why that he made that statement, because they were asking questions that should be asked at home. We cannot use one verse and not use the others. To get the full understanding we must read the whole counsel of God, and not just hang on to one verse like it is the only one there.

All it takes for something to be true in scripture is for it to be said one time.


Do you not believe that God gives women the gifts of the spirit? Depends on your definition, if you are referring to the practice of spazing out on the floor or speaking gibberish. No.

Do you not believe that God has given women the gift to prophesy? Yes, he did.

What of these verse? Do you not agree that women are a part of Gods people?

Why would you suggest that I think this? We are talking about the roles of men and women in the church. Not whether or not women can be saved. In Genesis God created a man and out of that man He created woman. They are both different, both valued by God and each with different roles to play as commanded by God. Today Christianity is suffering because both genders are neglecting and rebellion against their roles.

Do you not agree that the women were included in the (all) spoken of in these verses?
I'm sorry I don't understand this question.


Now I could do as you did and use one verse........ and not the others around it
V. 38 But if any man be ignorant, let him be ignorant.
God Bless
allthingspure

Right. If a man wants to be ignorant about what Paul just said, then so be it. I choose not to be ignorant. I think perhaps, we're getting close to having exhausted every angle of this discussion.

[Rufus]

Rufus and Blue,

"to proclaim the year of the LORD's favor, and the day of our God's vengeance..." Isaiah 61:2

"The tumult reaches to the ends of the earth because the LORD brings a case against the nations. He enters into judgment with all flesh. As for the wicked, He hands them over to the sword [This is] the LORD's declaration." Jeremiah 25:31

"I tell you that on the day of judgment people will have to account for every careless word they speak." Matthew 12:36

"This, then, is the judgment: the light has come into the world, and people loved darkness rather than the light because their deeds were evil." John 3:19

"When I say to the wicked, 'O wicked man, you will surely die,' and you do not speak out to dissuade him from his ways, that wicked man will die for his sin, and I will hold you accountable for his blood." Ezekiel 33:8

How does the use of this scripture apply to "Women Pastor/Preachers"?

[Wendell]

I think it means he doesnt like us rufus, and if we dont change our ways, hes going to tell God on us...:-)

still standing on the Rock
blue....

[germanJoy]

Also germanjoy...

As has been stated before; Anna was an old testament believer, she would have been in the outer court, just as every other worshipper would have been who was not qualified to minister as a priest.. The equivelant of a pastor bishop or elder, in the old testament would have been to fulfill the ministry of a priest. In all the old testament, there was NEVER a woman who officiated before God in the office of priest...God is the same, yesterday today and forever. He did not change from the new testament, to the oldtestament, and he is not making exceptions for the innovators today. Those who lust after woman pastors, will never be able to use the Bible, or claim God has been misunderstood all these thousands of years.. And as has already been said before.. it is no shame for certain offices to be withheld from women.... they are also withheld from most men..

blue..
If the office of priesthood exclusively for men only, are the following Scriptures applicable to MEN only?

you also, as living stones, are being built up as a spiritual house for a royal priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ. 1 Peter 2:5 Are the men the only ones who can offer spiritual sacrifices as royal priests?

But you are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for God's own possession, that you may proclaim the excellencies of Him who has called you out of darkness into His marvelous light; 1 Peter 2:9 Is this Royal Priesthood exclusively for MEN ONLY to proclaim God's excellencies?

Is the first resurrection made up of MEN ONLY?

Blessed and holy is the one who has a part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with Him for a thousand years? Revelations 20:6

Does the kingdom of God consists of MEN i.e., MALE PRIESTS only?

and He has made us to be a kingdom, priests to His God and Father; to Him be the glory and the dominion forever and ever. Amen. Rev. 1:6

If all these statements are true, then ALL WOMEN are condemned. If WOMEN cannot be priests (not the Old Covenant priesthood which is obsolete but the New Covenant priesthood which is presently and eternally effective), then they do not have any part in the Royal Priesthood, in the resurrection and in the kingdom of God. Either women are qualified to offer spiritual sacrifices as royal priests or they are strictly prohibited to do so and should not exercise this privelege.

I have yet to know any certain office withheld from most men?

Just wondering and asking ....

germanJoy

[germanJoy]

Tell you what...I will advocate for and take no issue with, the first example of a contemporary woman who maintains her virginity up to her marriage and 7 years after. Then after becoming a widow stays in a church/temple and does nothing but prayer and fasting and praising God. What a marvelous example of a servant of God that Anna was. Of course, even Anna wasn't confused about her gender for there is no evidence of her attempting to be a pastor, deacon or elder nor is their evidence of her attempting to have authority over men, nor is their evidence of her speaking in front of or during an assembly. I suspect she had a heart for the whole counsel of God.
There was an evidence of Anna speaking in front of an assembly of people in the church called "the temple of God". She may not be a priest but she was a prophetess who had to speak in front of many people, the assembly of the jews (the outer court is still PART of the TEMPLE/CHURCH). The issue we need to settle here was whether indeed it was a SHAME for a woman to speak in the temple of God, the church. And until now no answer is given whether it was indeed a shame for a woman like Anna SPEAKING in the church, who anyway was one of the PROCLAIMERS of the MESSIAH of the New Testament BELIEVERS.

[germanJoy]

The translation hinges on one Hebrew word, תורשבמה (hamevasroth), a feminine plural participle, thus “women” is an appropriate translation. But the participle is followed by the noun אבצ (tsava), which is masculine, and means “host” or “company” or “army.”

The best translation of the Hebrew participle itself is “the women bearing the tidings.” In the context of Psalm 68, this is exactly what is happening in Israel: “God shall arise, his enemies shall be scattered; and those who hate him shall flee before him!” (Ps. 68:1; ESV). It is precisely this news that the women are proclaiming. The Lord is victorious over His enemies. While the men are away with the army, the women are proclaiming the news of the victory (v. 11) and dividing the spoil (v. 12).

The Lord gives the command;
The women who proclaim the good tidings are a great host;
"King of armies flee,, they flee,
And she who remains at home will divide the spoil!"

Whether you like it or not, Rufus and blueheron, the correct "Hebrew" translation, is "great is the company of WOMEN proclaiming the good news" referring to the victory of their men in battle. :-)

It is the not the spirit of deception but the SPIRIT OF TRUTH that WOMEN here are the ones proclaiming.

germanJoy

[Rufus]

I pray that it is becoming obvious where the differences in this thread lie. If one has a potpourri Bible position he or she can find a Bible that will support their position to match up with any of their lusts. If you are a sodomite and want a bible that supports your sin, then you might be inclined to like the NIV. If you think God is a woman, you might like the TNIV. If you want to reach porn-stars you give them The Message as it just loves sex. Finally, if you want to support women pastors grab a Holman Standard Bible.

For me, my foundation is in the King James Bible and it says that husbands should love their wives as Christ loved the church. It says, women should be help mates to their husbands, should not have authority over their husbands and may not serve as a pastor, elder or deacon. I, desirous to be a reader and doer of the word find that Psalms 68:11 says:


"The Lord gave the word: great was the company of those that published it."

[Rufus]

I think it means he doesnt like us rufus, and if we dont change our ways, hes going to tell God on us...:-)

still standing on the Rock
blue....

I figured that was the case. I was just wondering if, as an angel of light, he might be bold enough to say what's on his mind.

[allthingspure]

Whereas women today have it all figured out? You don't ask question now? I am a man and based on your definition, and I don't mind saying, I am unlearned for I have yet to stop asking questions. The man or woman who proclaims that they are learned and have no need of questions is a deceiver

lol Yes Rufus I do ask questions, did not I ask you questions???

But I do not ask questions during service. God has given me His Spirit, and along with His Spirit, the wisdom to know when to keep quiet and when to speak. But I will say this; If God begans to pour out His Spirit on me, and He causes me to prophesy, I will speak ! I will not quinch the Spirit of God because I am afraid of what men will think. Who am I to try to stop the Spirit of God? After all I am His handmaiden.

Do you not believe that God gives women the gifts of the spirit?

Depends on your definition, if you are referring to the practice of spazing out on the floor or speaking gibberish. No.


No I was not referring to that! A woman with the gift of prophesy will not speak to the people in a language they cannot understand, nor will she need to be spazed out in the floor!
God is not the author of confusion.

Do you not agree that the women were included in the (all) spoken of in these verses?

I'm sorry I don't understand this question.



1 Cor.14:23 > If therefore the whole church (the church consist of men and women) be come together into one place, and all speak with tongues, and there come in those that are unlearned, or unbelievers, will they not say that ye are mad? 24> But if all prophesy, and there come in one that believeth not, or one unlearned, he is convienced of all, he is judged of all:
Verse 29> Let the prophets speak two or three, and let the other judge.
Verse 31> For ye may all prophesy one by one, that all may learn, and all may be comforted.

I was referring to the above scriptures....

All it takes for something to be true in scripture is for it to be said one time.


wellll actually....
2 Tim.2:15 > Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not be ashamed,rightly diving the word of truth.

Gods Word must be rightly divided
Also in the mouth of two or three witnesses let every word be established.

Isaiah 28:9-10 > Whom shall He teach knowledge? and whom shall He make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breast. For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line; line upon line, here a little, and there a little;

Acts 2:17-18 > And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophsey, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams: And on my servantsand on my handmaidens I will pour out my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:

God plainly tells us that His daughters will prophesy.....and we know that to prophesy a woman Must speak... and we know that we must rightly divide Gods Word precept upon precept, line upon line.
Now if christian women are not allowed to speak in service, why would God pour out His Spirit on them so that the prophesy?

Like I said before Paul was speaking about women who were unlearned in the things of God, and some were perhaps, unbelievers also.

Oh and another thing... there were about 120 in the upper room on the day of Pentecost.... and there were women there also! and when God poured out His Spirit >> Acts 2:4>> And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with tongues, as the Spirit gave the utterance!
To think that the apostles told the women to be quiet (because they were women) would have been as if they were telling God to be quiet, because it was God who gave the utterance!
The women did speak and prophesy in the meeting.
Remember Gods word does not go against itself!
God Bless
allthingspure

[Recycled]

According to the Hebrew Lexicon, blue is exactly right. I would be looking for a more accurately rendered study Bible.

Kindest regards,

Recycled

[allthingspure]

Hello recycled :)
I'm not sure which comment you are speaking of, but I will check them out.
God Bless
allthingspure

[Recycled]

blue, I have been a cowboy and a dairy farmer and have spent a fair share of my life in dung.

However, as Bible study goes, I do not dig in dung, neither do I proclaim lies and deception.

If you would take the time to study the history of the early Jewish worship practices, you will see and learn the truth in what I have said.

The authors of the Bible do not take the time to describe or explain every cultural detail in their writings, assuming that their readers are all ready in the know. It is we that need to learn of those cultural practices in order to better understand the Bible.

Kindest regards,

Recycled

[allthingspure]

Recycled is this the post that you were speaking of?
I cannot say that I have heard much about this. So I can not comment on it.
God Bless you

allthingspure

[Wendell]

The authors of the Bible do not take the time to describe or explain every cultural detail in their writings, assuming that their readers are all ready in the know. It is we that need to learn of those cultural practices in order to better understand the Bible.

God is the author of the bible. He included in the bible everything necessary for us to determine all things concerning faith and practice. He must not have thought that historical cultural thing was necessary or he would have included it. The sources of information we have today about ancient cultural and religious practices are not infallible, to settle any matter of doctrinal question from a source outside of the bible alone and in its entirety is irresponsible to say the least.. especially when it is used to overthrow clear biblical statements.

I too have been a farmer all my life. I still have a couple cows and goats and chickens out back..:-) In fact I have had my arm up to my shoulder in the source of dung on a number of occasions... So, I think I know it when I see it..:-)

blue..

[germanJoy]

I pray that it is becoming obvious where the differences in this thread lie. If one has a potpourri Bible position he or she can find a Bible that will support their position to match up with any of their lusts. If you are a sodomite and want a bible that supports your sin, then you might be inclined to like the NIV. If you think God is a woman, you might like the TNIV. If you want to reach porn-stars you give them The Message as it just loves sex. Finally, if you want to support women pastors grab a Holman Standard Bible.

For me, my foundation is in the King James Bible and it says that husbands should love their wives as Christ loved the church. It says, women should be help mates to their husbands, should not have authority over their husbands and may not serve as a pastor, elder or deacon. I, desirous to be a reader and doer of the word find that Psalms 68:11 says:


"The Lord gave the word: great was the company of those that published it."
lol, Rufus... just like if you think God is a man, you might like KJV? :LOL

Surely, the bible clearly tells us that God is a Spirit, neither a man nor a woman. He doesn't have a sex like human beings. Even angels do not have sexes. When He took the flesh, He became a man and during His resurrection, His physical form was transformed into a "glorified-spiritual body or being". Even we, you as a man and I as a woman i.e., your spirit and my spirit, have no sexes when we come into the heavenly places for we will all become like angels, otherwise called as sons of God. :-)

As for your translation of Psalms 68:11, it is a vague interpretation as the word "those" is neutrum which can also mean "women", "men" or "both". Since it is unclear, as a seeker of truth, there is a need to study the original Hebrew translation of the words תורשבמה (hamevasroth) and אבצ (tsava).

As soon as you have done your study, let's talk about it again, ok? :-)

God bless you.

germanJoy

[Rufus]

lol, Rufus... just like if you think God is a man, you might like KJV? :LOL

Surely, the bible clearly tells us that God is a Spirit, neither a man nor a woman. He doesn't have a sex like human beings. Even angels do not have sexes. When He took the flesh, He became a man and during His resurrection, His physical form was transformed into a "glorified-spiritual body or being". Even we, you as a man and I as a woman i.e., your spirit and my spirit, have no sexes when we come into the heavenly places for we will all become like angels, otherwise called as sons of God. :-)

As for your translation of Psalms 68:11, it is a vague interpretation as the word "those" is neutrum which can also mean "women", "men" or "both". Since it is unclear, as a seeker of truth, there is a need to study the original Hebrew translation of the words תורשבמה (hamevasroth) and אבצ (tsava).

As soon as you have done your study, let's talk about it again, ok? :-)

God bless you.

germanJoy


I think we've both stated our positions. Our arguments are on the table and I try to shy away from debating who's interlinear is better. You trust your abilities to be a translator, as I imagine you believe you are a learned woman. I trust that the 47 translators in 1604-1611 got it right, which I guess makes me a simple man. The dent in the wall with my headprint in it is deep enough, so I think I'm done with this thread for now. I look forward to dialoguing on other issues with you. Grace and peace.

[Kanga]

Thankyou servant for the website. I am making good use of it.:0)

[elect lady]

I believe the Scriptures about women speaking in the church are to be taken literally. The Scriptures are: I Corinthians 14:34, 35 Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law. And if they will learn any thing, let hem ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.

The word church means an assembly. This epistle or letter was addressed to the church of God at Corinth-I Corinthians 1:2 Unto the church of God which is at Corinth....

Also in I Timothy 2:11, 12 Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. but I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.

Paul is writing instructions for a church, I Timothy 3:15 But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.

That the offices of bishop and deacons belongs to the male gender is shown in I Timothy 3:2 A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife....
I can be a wife, a mother or a daughter, but I cannot be a husband.

In I Timothy 3:8, it talks of the deacons, then in verse 11, their wives and verse 12 Let the deacons be the husbands of one wife...

Women are to study the Bible as well as men. In some instances they may know more of and about the Bible than a man, but God is a God of order and has given us the order in the Bible.

elect lady

[livebyfaith]

i know that in some places in the Bible, it talks about how women should not have authority over men, but paul mentions women in ministry several times. is it ok for a woman to become a pastor?
my major next year in college is pastoral studies in the hope of becoming a pastor. but i do not want to do anything that is against the Word.
can anyone shed light on this topic for me?

This has been the subject of many discussions in the Church.

While yes I agree that there are scriptures (which have been posted already) that appear that women should not Minister, there are many scriptures that without a doubt show women ministering to Jesus.

Matthew 27:54-56
54 So when the centurion and those with him, who were guarding Jesus, saw the earthquake and the things that had happened, they feared greatly, saying, “Truly this was the Son of God!”
55 And many women who followed Jesus from Galilee, ministering to Him, were there looking on from afar,
56 among whom were Mary Magdalene, Mary the mother of James and Joses, and the mother of Zebedee’s sons.

Luke 8:1-3
1 Now it came to pass, afterward, that He went through every city and village, preaching and bringing the glad tidings of the kingdom of God. And the twelve were with Him,
2 and certain women who had been healed of evil spirits and infirmities—Mary called Magdalene, out of whom had come seven demons, 3 and Joanna the wife of Chuza, Herod’s steward, and Susanna, and many others who provided for Him from their substance.

Mark 15:41
41 who also followed Him and ministered to Him when He was in Galilee, and many other women who came up with Him to Jerusalem.

Matthew 28:5-8
He Is Risen
5 But the angel answered and said to the women, “Do not be afraid, for I know that you seek Jesus who was crucified.
6 He is not here; for He is risen, as He said. Come; see the place where the Lord lay.
7 And go quickly and tell His disciples that He is risen from the dead, and indeed He is going before you into Galilee; there you will see Him. Behold, I have told you.”
8 So they went out quickly from the tomb with fear and great joy, and ran to bring His disciples word.

Abo