Once saved, always saved-Eternal Security

[Evangelist Jerry]

The biggest argument used to prove this against those who do not accept it is; Were they ever really saved to begin with? A Question! If I place apples in a box and only apples are in the box, can I pluck a grapefruit out of this box where no grapefruit has ever been put in? No! In order to retrieve a grapefruit from the box, a grapefruit must first be placed in this box. So, we can not pluck out what has never been placed in.

Exodus 32:33 And the Lord said unto Moses, Whosoever hath sinned against me, him will I blot out of my book.

Can God Blot out a name; who has never been saved, nor ever entered into the book? NO! As the example above shows, you can not remove what was never there.

Deuteronomy 9:13-14 Furthermore the Lord spake unto me, saying, I have seen this people, and, behold, it is a stiffnecked people: Let me alone, that I may destroy them, and blot out their name from under heaven: and I will make of thee a nation mightier and greater than they.

Again; can God blot out a people, never saved? No! They were never in nor were they ever saved so those blotted out, were once in, once believed and once saved but clearly, not always saved.

Revelation 3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

This speaks of those who have overcome; those who were already in the book and how they would not be blotted out of it. Conversely; those who were written in, that did not overcome, would be blotted out.

John 15:6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.

Abide simply means to continue; to persevere, to endure without yielding or even to remain stable or fixed in a state of mind or being. If man does not continue in the ways of Christ, he is cast forth as a withered branch, collected and cast into the fire.

1st Corinthians 15:2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.

Paul shows us this is a conditional promise, if man keeps/continues in his faith.

Galatians 6:8-9 For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting. And let us not be weary in well doing: for in due season we shall reap, if we faint not.

Shows salvation as a conditional promise again, if man faints not.

2nd Timothy 2:11-12 It is a faithful saying: For if we be dead with him, we shall also live with him: If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us:

Denying Christ is not singularly specific to those who have never accepted him: If one is to deny him, even after they accept him, he will also deny them.

Hebrews 6:4-6 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

This should not be taken to the opposite extreme to show that should or if one choose to backslide, sin willingly or turn away from God, that they can never come back but means that unless they confess their sins and repent from their evil and/or wrong ways, they are doomed and destined to eternal separation from God.

Romans 11:22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

On them which fell; those that were once saved and believed but fell, are severed/cut off from God if they do not continue in his goodness.

Romans 2:7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

Patient continuance again shows that one must endure until the end in order to receive eternal life.

Matthew 10:22 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.

Ezekiel 3:18-19 When I say unto the wicked, Thou shalt surely die; and thou givest him not warning, nor speakest to warn the wicked from his wicked way, to save his life; the same wicked man shall die in his iniquity; but his blood will I require at thine hand. Yet if thou warn the wicked, and he turn not from his wickedness, nor from his wicked way, he shall die in his iniquity; but thou hast delivered thy soul.

Ezekiel 3:20 Again, When a righteous man doth turn from his righteousness, and commit iniquity, and I lay a stumblingblock before him, he shall die:

A righteous man is one who is saved; but should he turn from that and not return to righteousness, he shall die and this does not relate to a physical death as all die a physical death except those who have been or will be translated.

Ezekiel 18:24 But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to All the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die.

All the abominations does not mean man must commit all known abominations of the wicked to lose his soul. James 2:10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all. “All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned” Once a person sins; all previous righteousness is vanquished or wiped out and they shall die in their sins, unless they confess, repent and return to God.

Ezekiel 18:26 When a righteous man turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and dieth in them; for his iniquity that he hath done shall he die.

Again; we are not talking of physical death here for all die (except those translated) but this verse clearly shows if a man dies in his sins, before they confess, repent and return to God, their souls will be cast alive into the lake of fire.

Ezekiel 33:12-13 Therefore, thou son of man, say unto the children of thy people, The righteousness of the righteous shall not deliver him in the day of his transgression: as for the wickedness of the wicked, he shall not fall thereby in the day that he turneth from his wickedness; neither shall the righteous be able to live for his righteousness in the day that he sinneth. When I shall say to the righteous, that he shall surely live; if he trust to his own righteousness, and commit iniquity, all his righteousnesses shall not be remembered; but for his iniquity that he hath committed, he shall die for it.

This shows that even righteousness can not and will not deliver or save anyone in the day they commit iniquity, sin or transgression so if they were to die at that point, all hope of salvation is lost. Conversely: This also shows that the wickedness of a wicked man shall not destroy him in the day he turns to and starts living for God because all previous sins are forgiven, forgotten and are remembered no more.

Ezekiel 33:18 When the righteous turneth from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, he shall even die thereby.

I’ll close with these last four verses:

Revelation 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Revelation 17:8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

Revelation 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

These verses do not mention those that were blotted out; those that were once saved but had lost their salvation subsequently but only those that were never in.

Revelation 22:19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

Irregardless of the reason, this shows not only than man can be blotted out of the book of life and the Holy City, Heaven but loses all promises except eternal punishment.

May God bless you & Keep you: Evangelist Jerry Wm Bowers Jr

[pop james]

Oh My!!!.........what a sad commentary for a believer to proclaim that the salvation GOD has bestowed upon them may be taken away.....

"Once you were alienated from GOD and were enemies in your minds because of your evil behavior. But now HE has reconciled you by CHRIST's physical body through death to present you Holy in HIS sight, without blemish and free from accusation." col 1:21-22......free from accuastion Jerry.
your post is suggesting the direct opposite.

"As far as the east from the west,so far as HE removed our transgressions from us....psalm 103:12. The two can never meet. HIS forgiveness is total......and without any condition.

(GOD) "you have put ALL my sins behind your back"......they are not in sight

GODs forgiveness is complete and can not be reversed...Micah 7:19 tells us this..(GOD) "YOU will tread our sins underfoot and hurl our iniquities into the depths of the sea......so Jerry...throw something into the depths of the seas and try to get it back.....Im afraid it would be lost and would not be retrieved again.

"I even I, am HE who blots our your transgressions, for MY own sake, and REMEMBERS YOUR SIN NO MORE Is 43:25.....Oh MY!!! what a wonderful promise to the believer.

If.... I as a believer am persuaded that I have NO eternal security in the GOD of my salvation I am ,JERRY, in a world of hurt. Oh I could never imagine even going to sleep at night wondering if because of my sinful nature I had lost my hope in eternity that is promised to GODs elect.

You quoted some good scripture Jerry but none are sufficient to convince the true believer that their salvation is not secure in light of these:

Can a saved soul ever be lost?..Hear the word of GOD...better still, read it for yourself.

the Christian has a life that can never be forfeited (rom 8:31-39; col 3:3, phil 1:6)
a relation that can never be abrogated (gal 3:26; 1 john3:1-2; rom 8:18)
a righteousness that can never be tarnished (rom3:25-26; 1cor 1:30;2 cor 5:21)
an acceptance that can never be questioned (eph 1:6; rom 8:3-34)
a judgment that never can be repeated (rom 8:1)
a standing that can never be disputed(rom 8:29)
an inheritance that can never fade away (1peter 1:3-5)a salvation that can never be anulled (rom 8:1; Is 45:17)

Jerry, My hope is that you consider these truths and search your heart... and GOD shows you that our LORD and SAVIOR.."NEVER LOST ONE of HIS sheep and never will...........Pop

[Wendell]

Amen Pop..well said...:-)

[purplejellybean]

The biggest argument used to prove this against those who do not accept it is; Were they ever really saved to begin with? A Question! If I place apples in a box and only apples are in the box, can I pluck a grapefruit out of this box where no grapefruit has ever been put in? No! In order to retrieve a grapefruit from the box, a grapefruit must first be placed in this box. So, we can not pluck out what has never been placed in.

Exodus 32:33 And the Lord said unto Moses, Whosoever hath sinned against me, him will I blot out of my book.

Can God Blot out a name; who has never been saved, nor ever entered into the book? NO! As the example above shows, you can not remove what was never there.

Deuteronomy 9:13-14 Furthermore the Lord spake unto me, saying, I have seen this people, and, behold, it is a stiffnecked people: Let me alone, that I may destroy them, and blot out their name from under heaven: and I will make of thee a nation mightier and greater than they.

Again; can God blot out a people, never saved? No! They were never in nor were they ever saved so those blotted out, were once in, once believed and once saved but clearly, not always saved.

Revelation 3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

This speaks of those who have overcome; those who were already in the book and how they would not be blotted out of it. Conversely; those who were written in, that did not overcome, would be blotted out.

John 15:6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.

Abide simply means to continue; to persevere, to endure without yielding or even to remain stable or fixed in a state of mind or being. If man does not continue in the ways of Christ, he is cast forth as a withered branch, collected and cast into the fire.

1st Corinthians 15:2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.

Paul shows us this is a conditional promise, if man keeps/continues in his faith.

Galatians 6:8-9 For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting. And let us not be weary in well doing: for in due season we shall reap, if we faint not.

Shows salvation as a conditional promise again, if man faints not.

2nd Timothy 2:11-12 It is a faithful saying: For if we be dead with him, we shall also live with him: If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us:

Denying Christ is not singularly specific to those who have never accepted him: If one is to deny him, even after they accept him, he will also deny them.

Hebrews 6:4-6 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

This should not be taken to the opposite extreme to show that should or if one choose to backslide, sin willingly or turn away from God, that they can never come back but means that unless they confess their sins and repent from their evil and/or wrong ways, they are doomed and destined to eternal separation from God.

Romans 11:22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

On them which fell; those that were once saved and believed but fell, are severed/cut off from God if they do not continue in his goodness.

Romans 2:7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

Patient continuance again shows that one must endure until the end in order to receive eternal life.

Matthew 10:22 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.

Ezekiel 3:18-19 When I say unto the wicked, Thou shalt surely die; and thou givest him not warning, nor speakest to warn the wicked from his wicked way, to save his life; the same wicked man shall die in his iniquity; but his blood will I require at thine hand. Yet if thou warn the wicked, and he turn not from his wickedness, nor from his wicked way, he shall die in his iniquity; but thou hast delivered thy soul.

Ezekiel 3:20 Again, When a righteous man doth turn from his righteousness, and commit iniquity, and I lay a stumblingblock before him, he shall die:

A righteous man is one who is saved; but should he turn from that and not return to righteousness, he shall die and this does not relate to a physical death as all die a physical death except those who have been or will be translated.

Ezekiel 18:24 But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to All the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die.

All the abominations does not mean man must commit all known abominations of the wicked to lose his soul. James 2:10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all. “All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned” Once a person sins; all previous righteousness is vanquished or wiped out and they shall die in their sins, unless they confess, repent and return to God.

Ezekiel 18:26 When a righteous man turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and dieth in them; for his iniquity that he hath done shall he die.

Again; we are not talking of physical death here for all die (except those translated) but this verse clearly shows if a man dies in his sins, before they confess, repent and return to God, their souls will be cast alive into the lake of fire.

Ezekiel 33:12-13 Therefore, thou son of man, say unto the children of thy people, The righteousness of the righteous shall not deliver him in the day of his transgression: as for the wickedness of the wicked, he shall not fall thereby in the day that he turneth from his wickedness; neither shall the righteous be able to live for his righteousness in the day that he sinneth. When I shall say to the righteous, that he shall surely live; if he trust to his own righteousness, and commit iniquity, all his righteousnesses shall not be remembered; but for his iniquity that he hath committed, he shall die for it.

This shows that even righteousness can not and will not deliver or save anyone in the day they commit iniquity, sin or transgression so if they were to die at that point, all hope of salvation is lost. Conversely: This also shows that the wickedness of a wicked man shall not destroy him in the day he turns to and starts living for God because all previous sins are forgiven, forgotten and are remembered no more.

Ezekiel 33:18 When the righteous turneth from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, he shall even die thereby.

I’ll close with these last four verses:

Revelation 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Revelation 17:8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

Revelation 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

These verses do not mention those that were blotted out; those that were once saved but had lost their salvation subsequently but only those that were never in.

Revelation 22:19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

Irregardless of the reason, this shows not only than man can be blotted out of the book of life and the Holy City, Heaven but loses all promises except eternal punishment.

May God bless you & Keep you: Evangelist Jerry Wm Bowers Jr





Dear friend, I agree with you 100% on this topic. Thank you for inviting me to read this. It was really helpful, honestly. Thank you and have a great night!
Your friend,
Purplejellybean :af

[New_Man_111]

Ezekiel 33:12-13 Therefore, thou son of man, say unto the children of thy people, The righteousness of the righteous shall not deliver him in the day of his transgression: as for the wickedness of the wicked, he shall not fall thereby in the day that he turneth from his wickedness; neither shall the righteous be able to live for his righteousness in the day that he sinneth. When I shall say to the righteous, that he shall surely live; if he trust to his own righteousness, and commit iniquity, all his righteousnesses shall not be remembered; but for his iniquity that he hath committed, he shall die for it.

This shows that even righteousness can not and will not deliver or save anyone in the day they commit iniquity, sin or transgression so if they were to die at that point, all hope of salvation is lost. Conversely: This also shows that the wickedness of a wicked man shall not destroy him in the day he turns to and starts living for God because all previous sins are forgiven, forgotten and are remembered no more.


let's see where to start, i'll say this good try but you don't devivde your bible right 2nd tim 2:15now if you can rightly divide it then you must also be able to wrongly divide it right? now i'm not saying that your not a good preacher and i'm sure you have more eddacation then me ( why i can't even spell right, surely i must be ingnorent and un learned, but so where peter & paul acts 4:13 ), and i'm not saying that God dose not use you, so don't get me wroung here, i've seen God use drug addicts,( i'm nothing and neither are you ) why he even used a donkey to reprove a very spiritaul man named ba-laam once and i trust that I am also not much differnt then that donkey that God once used, now then i do believe that we will all get a big wake up call at the judgement seat, ...knowledge puffeth up but chairity edifieth and if any man think that he knoweth any thing, he knoweth nothing yet as heought to know but if any man love God the same is known of him 1st cor 8:1-3

eph 3:1-2 For this cause I paul. the prisoner of jeus christ for you Gentials if you have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward

thats where we're at right now

eph 2:8-9 for by grace are ye saved trough faith; and not of yourselves: it is the gift of God not of works less any man should boast

isaiah 64:6 ...all our rightousness are as filthy rags....read romans 5:15-21 gift by grace , free gift free gift gift of rightousness, grace did much more abound

ya see it is a free gift, now do you pay for a free gift? i think not you just except it rom 11:28 as consening the gospel...v29 the gifts and callings of God are with out repentance Gods not a indian giver, why ? well you just read it, the bible saids thats why..v30 ......obtained mercy...titus 3:5-7 not by works of rightouness that we have done , but according to his mercy he saved us, by the wasing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost: which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our savior; that being justified by his grace , we should be made heirs accord ing to the hope of eternal life...it go's on to say that we sould maintain good works be cause it is profetable not because it saves us...and if you do you will have inheratince ( time would fail me to give you the whole bible concerning this in one day, thats why i'm not wrighting the whole scriptures, noe because i'm useing craftyness ) now then there is a diferts between "entering in" & "inheriting" the kingdom of God, it's like this i could let you in to my house but did you inherit it ? dose any thing in that house belong to you by inheritance ? you might be sleeping on the streets of gold but by grace & mercy you excapt the flames of torment...read romans ch 3 ther is none righteous, no, not one:...the righeousness of God witch is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe : for there is no differnts: for all have sinned and come short of the glory of God being justafide freely ( free gift remember? ) by his grace ( his grace his rightousness not our righteousness, which is a filty rage comepared to his) through redemtion that is in Christ Jesus:.... ( theres more but i don't have enough time, so lets move on )

now then , we have etablished; hid grace, his blood, his righteousness ,his mercy on use, not our rightousnees for there is none righteous so then by your belief, unless God is a lier then no one can be saved...fair enough, ya just got to rightly devivde my brother, other wise you get tossed to and fro the bible saids eph 4:14

this is how you get saved romans 10:9-13, luke 18:13, psalms31:1-5, by bowing your knees in the land of the living before a holy and just Lord God Jesus Christ, crying out with a repented heart, begging for forgivness, geting regenerated and wased in the blood that was sheed for the remission of our sins, confessing that he layed down his life and rose again by his own power, confessing that he the only wise God King eternal King Jesus Christ will take you home to hevenly places in Christ, asking that you, though you don't deserv it might be Born agian throght the holy spirit of promise and riseid up at the last day by the excending greatness of his power to use-ward who believe in the working of his mighty power

thats salvation in the dispensation of grace, and it's through his righeousness, and our faith in his finished work

[FONT="Arial"]but look here ther is a difernts between a confestion of faith and being accualy born agian ( and i'm not talking about water babtisium either ) the bible said Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature old thing are passed away; behold, all things become new. 2nd cor 5:17 right...ok...now lission here to this brother of low degree if you have it in you to do so, that is if you have ears to here, by all means please bow them to the word of God for a moment or two....theres going to be a curcumcision of the heart and through faith an operation of God maid with out hands the bible saids ( some where in colossians ) when this is done the soul is separated from the flesh and the spirit is born again, the soul is already seated in hevanly places is christ, awaiting the release of the spirit (which is regenarated and born agian, from being dead in sins & trespasses ) awaiting to join with the soul agian in the 3rd heaven, awaiting then, the redemption of the purched posseion of the new creature which groaneth and traveileth in pain together until the redemption of our body, unto a better day, yea even a new heaven & earth at the dipensation of the fullness of times... rom 6:6-7 knowing this, that our old man is [COLOR="Blue"]crucifeid [COLOR="Black"]with him that the body of sin might be destroyed, that hence forth we should no longer serve sin [COLOR="Blue"]for he that is dead is freed from sin [COLOR="Red"]gal 2:20 [COLOR="Black"]i am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not i but Christ liveth in me (phi 1:21) : and the life which I now live in the flesh [COLOR="Blue"]I live by faith of the Son of God [COLOR="Black"], who loved me and gave him self for me. [COLOR="Blue"]I do not frustarte the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

[COLOR="Black"]do you think that jesus came and sufferd a bleed, was wounded for our transgresstion, in vain. if salvation came by selfrighteousness then why'd he have to get his bake turned on him from God the father, and God the Holy ghost, for 3 days and 3 nights in the heart of the earth where he concured death and hell grabed up the righteous dead, cause hell to enlarge it's self and rose agian was seen above 500 at one time, left and sent the holy spirit of promise...ect...ect...why did my saviuor suffer if we could do it through works. he know our febol frame and the weakness of our flesh i praise the Lord my God that by grace ye are saved and not of yourselfs because we got an enamy that old serpent the devil that loves to use the weakness of the flesh aginst us and has done a goodjob at it for along time

theres more but i think thats enough for now

[FONT="Arial Black"]Praise the living God for his grace[FONT="Arial"]

[COLOR="Blue"][FONT="Arial Black"]O foolish Galations, who hath bewitched you, that ye sould not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you ?

For ye have not received the spirit of bondage agian to fear but the Spirit of adoption, wherey we cry abba father


COLOR]

[New_Man_111]

gal 2:8-9 that inclueds + works

if i have offended well so be it i d alway bear in mind, i do alway bear in mind jeramiah 48:10 and i'm not going to curse my self to please others

now i'll say this if someone is truly saved then there going to come out from the world at least a little bit, if they get tempted and back slide, yet still God's mercy endureth for ever

have i become thine enemy because i speek the truth, are not my hands now clean accoreding to my own conscience in the site of God

prov 9:17-18

[m.o.m.]

Thanks you, pop, for that wonderful reminder of God's unfailing grace. God bless!

m.o.m.

[SealedEternal]

The bible teaches that those who are born again are adopted into God's family as His children:

John 1:12-13 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name, who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.

If you are reborn through God's regeneration and adopted into His family, you are an heir to His Kingdom:

Romans 8:13-17 for if you are living according to the flesh, you must die; but if by the Spirit you are putting to death the deeds of the body, you will live. For all who are being led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God. For you have not received a spirit of slavery leading to fear again, but you have received a spirit of adoption as sons by which we cry out, "Abba! Father!" The Spirit Himself testifies with our spirit that we are children of God, and if children, heirs also, heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him so that we may also be glorified with Him.

Galatians 4:5-7 so that He might redeem those who were under the Law, that we might receive the adoption as sons. Because you are sons, God has sent forth the Spirit of His Son into our hearts, crying, "Abba! Father!" Therefore you are no longer a slave, but a son; and if a son, then an heir through God.

As God's child and an heir to His Kingdom your salvation is in His hands and He will always be faithful even when we are not:

John 10:28,29 “...and I give ETERNAL LIFE to them, and they shall NEVER PERISH; and NO ONE shall snatch them out of My hand. My Father, Who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and NO ONE is able to snatch them out of my Father's hand.”

John 6:37, 39-40 “This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of ALL that He has given Me I LOSE NOTHING, but raise it up on the last day. “For this is the will of My Father, that EVERYONE who beholds the Son and BELIEVES in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day. ALL that the Father gives ME shall come to me; and the one who comes to ME I WILL CERTAINLY NOT CAST OUT.”

1 John 5:13 “These things I have written to you who BELIEVE in the name of the Son of God, in order THAT YOU MAY KNOW THAT YOU HAVE ETERNAL LIFE!”

John 5:24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears MY word, and believes Him who sent Me, HAS ETERNAL LIFE, and does NOT come into judgment, but HAS PASSED OUT OF DEATH into life.

Romans 6:23 “For the wages of sin is death, but the FREE GIFT of God is ETERNAL LIFE in Christ Jesus our Lord.

11:29 …for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.”

If you are a regenerated child of God He will discipline you as any good Father does, but He will not cast you out of His family:

Hebrews 12:6-8 FOR THOSE WHOM THE LORD LOVES HE DISCIPLINES, AND HE SCOURGES EVERY SON WHOM HE RECEIVES." It is for discipline that you endure; God deals with you as with sons; for what son is there whom his father does not discipline? But if you are without discipline, of which all have become partakers, then you are illegitimate children and not sons.

You will know if you are a child of God by your fruits:

Matthew 7:16-23 "You will know them by their fruits. Grapes are not gathered from thorn bushes nor figs from thistles, are they? "So every good tree bears good fruit, but the bad tree bears bad fruit. "A good tree cannot produce bad fruit, nor can a bad tree produce good fruit. "Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. "So then, you will know them by their fruits. "Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter. "Many will say to Me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?' "And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.'

1 John 3:1-10 See how great a love the Father has bestowed on us, that we would be called children of God; and such we are. For this reason the world does not know us, because it did not know Him. Beloved, now we are children of God, and it has not appeared as yet what we will be. We know that when He appears, we will be like Him, because we will see Him just as He is. And everyone who has this hope fixed on Him purifies himself, just as He is pure. Everyone who practices sin also practices lawlessness; and sin is lawlessness. You know that He appeared in order to take away sins; and in Him there is no sin. No one who abides in Him sins; no one who sins has seen Him or knows Him. Little children, make sure no one deceives you; the one who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous; the one who practices sin is of the devil; for the devil has sinned from the beginning. The Son of God appeared for this purpose, to destroy the works of the devil. No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. By this the children of God and the children of the devil are obvious: anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor the one who does not love his brother.

In summary; If you are truly born of God, you are an heir to His Kingdom and He will not cast you out. You will know if you are His child or not by your fruits. If you practice righteousness you are God's child and will inherit His Kingdom, but if you practice lawlessness you are the devil's child and will inherit his lake of fire. God discipines His children but He does not cast them out of His family. You are in His hands and no one can snatch you out.

SealedEternal

[m.o.m.]

Jerry,

you said:

Ezekiel 33:12-13 Therefore, thou son of man, say unto the children of thy people, The righteousness of the righteous shall not deliver him in the day of his transgression: as for the wickedness of the wicked, he shall not fall thereby in the day that he turneth from his wickedness; neither shall the righteous be able to live for his righteousness in the day that he sinneth. When I shall say to the righteous, that he shall surely live; if he trust to his own righteousness, and commit iniquity, all his righteousnesses shall not be remembered; but for his iniquity that he hath committed, he shall die for it.

This shows that even righteousness can not and will not deliver or save anyone in the day they commit iniquity, sin or transgression so if they were to die at that point, all hope of salvation is lost. Conversely: This also shows that the wickedness of a wicked man shall not destroy him in the day he turns to and starts living for God because all previous sins are forgiven, forgotten and are remembered no more.

Jerry, of course their righteousness cannot deliver them because there is non truly righteous. It is only God's grace which brings salvation to all of us undeserving, unrighteous sinners made right by the blood of the lamb.

Hebrews 7:27
27Unlike the other high priests, he does not need to offer sacrifices day after day, first for his own sins, and then for the sins of the people. He sacrificed for their sins once for all when he offered himself.

Christ work is a complete work...an offering for ALL sins!

Hebrews 9:24-28

24For Christ did not enter a man-made sanctuary that was only a copy of the true one; he entered heaven itself, now to appear for us in God's presence. 25Nor did he enter heaven to offer himself again and again, the way the high priest enters the Most Holy Place every year with blood that is not his own. 26Then Christ would have had to suffer many times since the creation of the world. But now he has appeared once for all at the end of the ages to do away with sin by the sacrifice of himself. 27Just as man is destined to die once, and after that to face judgment, 28so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many people; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him.

It is a done deal. for ALL my transgressions.

Read Hebrews chapter 10. Here are some of the more pertinent verses>

Hebrews 10:10
10And by that will, we have been made holy through the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

Hebrews 10:12
12But when this priest had offered for all time one sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God.

Hebrews 10:14
14because by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy.

He has made us perfect forever

This is propitiation (a done deal...complete): from Dictionary.com

pro·pi·ti·a·tion ( P ) Pronunciation Key (pr-psh-shn)
n.
The act of propitiating.
Something that propitiates, especially a conciliatory offering to a god.


[Download Now or Buy the Book]
Source: The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition
Copyright © 2000 by Houghton Mifflin Company.
Published by Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved.


propitiation

n 1: the act of placating and overcoming distrust and animosity [syn: placation, conciliation] 2: the act of atoning for sin or wrongdoing (especially appeasing a deity) [syn: expiation, atonement]


Source: WordNet ® 2.0, © 2003 Princeton University


propitiation

that by which God is rendered propitious, i.e., by which it becomes consistent
with his character and government to pardon and bless the sinner. The
propitiation does not procure his love or make him loving; it only renders it
consistent for him to execise his love towards sinners. In Rom. 3:25 and Heb.
9:5 (A.V., "mercy-seat") the Greek word _hilasterion_ is used. It is the word
employed by the LXX. translators in Ex. 25:17 and elsewhere as the equivalent
for the Hebrew _kapporeth_, which means "covering," and is used of the lid of
the ark of the covenant (Ex. 25:21; 30:6). This Greek word (hilasterion) came
to denote not only the mercy-seat or lid of the ark, but also propitation or
reconciliation by blood. On the great day of atonement the high priest carried
the blood of the sacrifice he offered for all the people within the veil and
sprinkled with it the "mercy-seat," and so made propitiation. In 1 John 2:2;
4:10, Christ is called the "propitiation for our sins." Here a different Greek
word is used (hilasmos). Christ is "the propitiation," because by his becoming
our substitute and assuming our obligations he expiated our guilt, covered it,
by the vicarious punishment which he endured. (Comp. Heb. 2:17, where the
expression "make reconciliation" of the A.V. is more correctly in the R.V.
"make propitiation.")


Source: Easton's 1897 Bible Dictionary

those who are being made holy

This is sanctification (an ongoing process): also from Dictionary.com

sanc·ti·fy ( P ) Pronunciation Key (sngkt-f)
tr.v. sanc·ti·fied, sanc·ti·fy·ing, sanc·ti·fies
To set apart for sacred use; consecrate.
To make holy; purify.
To give religious sanction to, as with an oath or vow: sanctify a marriage.
To give social or moral sanction to.
To make productive of holiness or spiritual blessing.


sanctification

involves more than a mere moral reformation of character, brought about by the
power of the truth: it is the work of the Holy Spirit bringing the whole nature
more and more under the influences of the new gracious principles implanted in
the soul in regeneration. In other words, sanctification is the carrying on to
perfection the work begun in regeneration, and it extends to the whole man
(Rom. 6:13; 2 Cor. 4:6; Col. 3:10; 1 John 4:7; 1 Cor. 6:19). It is the special
office of the Holy Spirit in the plan of redemption to carry on this work (1
Cor. 6:11; 2 Thess. 2:13). Faith is instrumental in securing sanctification,
inasmuch as it (1) secures union to Christ (Gal. 2:20), and (2) brings the
believer into living contact with the truth, whereby he is led to yield
obedience "to the commands, trembling at the threatenings, and embracing the
promises of God for this life and that which is to come." Perfect
sanctification is not attainable in this life (1 Kings 8:46; Prov. 20:9; Eccl.
7:20; James 3:2; 1 John 1:8). See Paul's account of himself in Rom. 7:14-25;
Phil. 3:12-14; and 1 Tim. 1:15; also the confessions of David (Ps. 19:12, 13;
51), of Moses (90:8), of Job (42:5, 6), and of Daniel (9:3-20). "The more holy
a man is, the more humble, self-renouncing, self-abhorring, and the more
sensitive to every sin he becomes, and the more closely he clings to Christ.
The moral imperfections which cling to him he feels to be sins, which he
laments and strives to overcome. Believers find that their life is a constant
warfare, and they need to take the kingdom of heaven by storm, and watch while
they pray. They are always subject to the constant chastisement of their
Father's loving hand, which can only be designed to correct their imperfections
and to confirm their graces. And it has been notoriously the fact that the best
Christians have been those who have been the least prone to claim the
attainment of perfection for themselves.", Hodge's Outlines.

I will pray each day that the Lord continues the process of sanctification in my life...that he makes me more like him and leads me to be "perfect, even as He is perfect." But I will not declare that he must be crucified again each time for my ongoing transgression. The act of propitiation is a done deal. We will falter, stumble, fall, and even sometimes turn back and willfully sin. There are consquences for this...but losing the grace that God has given us is not one of them.

Thank you for your patience...this is a long post for me...guess I found my soap box...LOL.

Finally, I put my faith in the word of Jesus upon the cross. "It is finished."

God bless you!

m.o.m.

[Evangelist Jerry]

Thanks purple and God Bless. The scriptures do speak for themselves. When God says He can take our part out of the book of life, the Holy City and remove all promises except eternal punishment, to deny is simply to ignore perfectly written and explained scripture!

[Evangelist Jerry]

He can not sin? Wasn't it this same person who wrote in 2nd John, "If we say we have no sin, we lie and do not the truth"?

[Evangelist Jerry]

Revelation 22:19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

You simply can not deny that this shows it is possible for God to remove what was once there, it says it in these same words. You can not be taken out of the book of life if you were never put in it!

[pop james]

Mystery indeed......but Jerry in light of the scriptures already given that prove the eternal security of the believer the ONLY explanation can be that those who viciously teach different from the the truth of not only revelation but the entire bible are NOT written in or ever will be written in the book of life....as I said, indeed a mystery. But do not be guilty of falsely saying that CHRIST's sacrifice was not sufficent and is weak in that it could not effectively save a believer who strays. The scriptures just do not allow for that. I believe the true meaning of these verses and how this will play out in eternity can be found in deut 29:29....I find satisfaction in this verse...read it perhaps you will also........In HIM......Pop

[larry]

Jerry, is there possibly a difference in the books the dead are judged by, and the Book of life?

Could you explain and please use scripture; I would hate to see you add to the word of God.

What they are -

What are the differences -

How do you get into either -


Revelation 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened:

and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and

the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

Somehow I believe I will have further questions for you - larry

[kenergica]

I believe we are all God's children. Anyone of us belong without any prior knowledge. A baby cannot understand why it's alive, but God would not discriminate if the baby doesn't know. Just as he wouldn't discriminate against a person in a distant land that never knew.

[allthingspure]

I think the problem with this subject is that people do not understand how to rightly divide Gods Word.
1. We have all sinned and come short
2. God sent His Son to redeem us from our sins, Jesus Christ is Gods Grace!
3. If we believe and obey Gods word, God will cleanse us from our sins and place us in the family of God.Thru obedience we enter into Gods Grace. We will be the adopted children, we will be engrafted into the Vine which is Christ Jesus.We will be placed into the predestinated number! God will not turn us away when we come to Him for salvation!
4. Once we are cleansed and placed in the family of God, we must continue to follow His ways, if we do not bear fruit, and if we do not continue to be obedient We will be cut off, and our name will be blotted out.
God has the ability to engraft us in and cut us off !
Once we are cleansed we must continue in the straight and narrow way, we must follow in the footsteps of Jesus. We must go and bear fruit. If we do not we will be cut off. Its just that simple.
God Bless
allthingspure:)

[Evangelist Jerry]

If they're not in, nor were they ever in, how can God take them out?

You can not remove something unless it is there to be removed. Those who have never accepted God were never in, this verse mentions those who will be taken out so they obviously were in at some point!

[godslove]

It is interesting that you came up with these conclusions. It certainly is the easy way out to just ignore all the other Scriptures that assure you of your salvation. But let’s look at these arguments. (Keep in mind that it’s about believing in Jesus that saves us. Not believing in some doctrine. If you believe that God is doing the work in you to accomplish his will, and that you have nothing to offer in return then there may not be a problem)

note-i had to remove your staements so that i could fit my answers.

Answer- logic is great as long as you have all the data and you can interpret it properly. If you read the Word of God with a bias you will get a biased answer.

Answer- Psalms 69:28. Let them be blotted out of the book of the living, and not be written with the righteous. (if you read psalm 69 you will see the difference between the saved and lost.)
Answer- John 15:16. ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.

Answer- 1 Cor. 15:11. therefore whether it were I or they, so we preach, and so ye believed. Now if Christ be preached that he arose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead? But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ is not risen: and if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain. (notice the word vain.)

Answer-2 Cor. 4:1. Therefore seeing we have this ministry, as we have received mercy, we faint not.
2 cor. 4:16. for which cause we faint not; but though out outward man perish, yet the inward man is renewed day by day.

Answer- Titus 1:15, 16. unto the pure all things are pure: but unto them that are defiled and unbelieving is nothing pure; but even their mind and conscience is defiled. They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.

Answer- Heb 6:9-. but, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak. For God is not unrighteous to forget your work and labour of love, which ye have showed toward his name, in that we have ministered to the saints, and do minister.

Answer- speculation

Answer- 11:20. well because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded but fear: (this is talking about the gentiles and the jews as a group. You really should of researched this one. It is a deceptive argument. It doesn’t make you appear honest.)

Answer- Rom. 2:11-13. for there is no respect of persons with God. For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law; for not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
Rom. 3:9-11 What then? Are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both jews and gentiles, that they are all under sin. As it is written, there is none righteous, no , not one: there is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

Answer- john 6:27-29. labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for the meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of Man shall five unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed. Then said they unto him, what shall we do, that we might work the works of God? Jesus answered and said unto them, this is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

Answer-Ezek. 33:13. When I shall say to righteous, that he shall surely live: if he trust to his -own- rightousness. And commit iniquity, all his righteousness shall not be remembered;
Gal. 3:21,22. Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righeousness should have been by the law. But the Scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.
Rev. 3:5. he that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angles.
1 john 5:4. 5. for whosoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith. Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God.

My answer-I had to spend a good hour answering these questions. If you want to have a healthy debate you should stick to 1 or 2 items at a time. I cannot dwell on all these at one time.

[Evangelist Jerry]

I think the problem with this subject is that people do not understand how to rightly divide Gods Word.
1. We have all sinned and come short
2. God sent His Son to redeem us from our sins, Jesus Christ is Gods Grace!
3. If we believe and obey Gods word, God will cleanse us from our sins and place us in the family of God.Thru obedience we enter into Gods Grace. We will be the adopted children, we will be engrafted into the Vine which is Christ Jesus.We will be placed into the predestinated number! God will not turn us away when we come to Him for salvation!
4. Once we are cleansed and placed in the family of God, we must continue to follow His ways, if we do not bear fruit, and if we do not continue to be obedient We will be cut off, and our name will be blotted out.
God has the ability to engraft us in and cut us off !
Once we are cleansed we must continue in the straight and narrow way, we must follow in the footsteps of Jesus. We must go and bear fruit. If we do not we will be cut off. Its just that simple.
God Bless
allthingspure:)
Once we are cleansed and placed in the family of God, we must continue to follow His ways, if we do not bear fruit, and if we do not continue to be obedient We will be cut off, and our name will be blotted out.
God has the ability to engraft us in and cut us off !
Once we are cleansed we must continue in the straight and narrow way, we must follow in the footsteps of Jesus. We must go and bear fruit. If we do not we will be cut off. Its just that simple.
God Bless


Amen, Amen, Amen & Amen. We can be cut off if we do not continue!

In Love: Evangelist Jerry Wm Bowers Jr.

[OneJoe]

Hi Jerry, according to Hebrews ch. 6 what you said would just be the case. Those who fall away recrusifying Christ after having tasted of the heavenly gift will have no hope of repentance again. So then the question remains will those chosen by God fall away? The answer appears to be no they will not. According to scripture Christ said he would lose "none" given him by his Father. Also, in revelation we see those chosen by God are with Christ in the end because they are the called, chosen, and faithful. Those called by God, but not chosen, are destined to fall away proof of our dependance on God. But the chosen have Christ working in them and scripture says he will finish the work he began in that person. Our natural and sinful ways keep us from being able to turn away from the rebellion against God. Therefore, it takes an act of God according to his mercy and Grace to quicken us from life to death and I trust he will finish what he began and not forsake me. I know that everything I do for the kingdom of God is by the will of God because without Christ's intervention in my life I would still to this day be living in bondage and rebellion.

[allthingspure]

Hope you all don't mind my responding on the subject of Hebrews ch.6.
Once again it is a matter of keeping the scriptures in their proper order.
Heb.6 is speaking about if anyone should fall away from the 'Doctrine of Christ', it is impossible for them to be renewed again.
The question of once saved always saved, is another matter.
I believe the question should be will God cut a person off from the vine once he has been engrafted in? the answer is yes
Can a person be lost once he has been put in the family of God?
Yes, if he does not continue to obey Gods Word, and if he does not bear fruit, and if he does not keep himself unspotted from the world, he will be blotted out of the Book of life.
Jesus Christ will not lose anyone given to Him by God, but they in return can be drawn away from Christ and not bear fruit, then God will cut them from the vine which is Christ. Notice it is God who cuts off those who do not bear fruit, it is not Jesus.
As long as a person is following Gods Word and walking in His Spirit they will bear fruit and will not be cut off, or blotted out.
God calls us, cleanses us, and robes us with His righteousness, He sets us on the straight and narrow way. He gives us His Word to follow and obey.
There is no reason why we should not bear fruit. Once saved always saved as long as you follow Gods Word and His ways, and stay in Christ Jesus If you do not you will be cut off "by God" and your name will be blotted out of the Book of Life.
God Bless
allthingspure

[godslove]

Evidently you have it worked out pretty good. But I don’t think it as cut and dry as you are presenting it. Surely I respect your views because obviously it is coming out of love. But I do want to make a couple of comments for you to consider. When we get to Heaven we won’t have to worry about these questions any more.


You wrote:
Hope you all don't mind my responding on the subject of Hebrews ch.6.
Once again it is a matter of keeping the scriptures in their proper order.
Heb.6 is speaking about if anyone should fall away from the 'Doctrine of Christ', it is impossible for them to be renewed again.

-------------verse 8 says “but that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.”
Matt. 7:17. “even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth evil fruit, a good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.”

----I believe that once God makes you a good tree, (so to speak) you kinda stay that way. Then you bring forth good fruit.


You wrote:
The question of once saved always saved, is another matter.
I believe the question should be will God cut a person off from the vine once he has been engrafted in? the answer is yes
Can a person be lost once he has been put in the family of God?
Yes, if he does not continue to obey Gods Word, and if he does not bear fruit, and if he does not keep himself unspotted from the world, he will be blotted out of the Book of life.

verse 9 and 10 say. “but beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak. For God is not unrighteous to forget your labour of love, which you have showed toward his name, in that ye have ministered to the saints, and do minister.”

-------these verses which are in the same chapter and they are continuing with the same thought which shows that he will not forget your labor of love. So I have to question the belief that he was originally talking about a saved person. Also he seemed to be convinced that it wasn’t a problem for real believers when he said we are persuaded. He certainly believed that they did better things and that better things accompany salvation.


You wrote:
Jesus Christ will not lose anyone given to Him by God, but they in return can be drawn away from Christ and not bear fruit, then God will cut them from the vine which is Christ. Notice it is God who cuts off those who do not bear fruit, it is not Jesus.

-----------But how much fruit is required? What is the fruit? I think we have to ask ourselves these questions. Especially since it may indeed be necessary for us to get into Heaven when we die.


You wrote:
As long as a person is following Gods Word and walking in His Spirit they will bear fruit and will not be cut off, or blotted out.
God calls us, cleanses us, and robes us with His righteousness, He sets us on the straight and narrow way. He gives us His Word to follow and obey.
There is no reason why we should not bear fruit. Once saved always saved as long as you follow Gods Word and His ways, and stay in Christ Jesus If you do not you will be cut off "by God" and your name will be blotted out of the Book of Life.
God Bless
allthingspure


---------------My belief on this is that eternal life is forever. And when Jesus promised me eternal life I believed his promise. I believe he changed me and I am glad I am not relying on myself. I am just a dumb sheep. But thanks for your patience with my reply. May God lead you all the way. Praise the Lord.

[Wendell]

Godslove.... you may just be a "dumb sheep", but you have spoken here very well.... thank you..and God bless.... :-)

blue

[Spiff]

"But i am confident of better things for you, things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak. For God is not unrighteous to forget your labor of love, which you have showed toward His, in that you have ministered to the saints and do minister." a true saint will have fruits, and because God is sovereign over choice as well, a true saint will not reject the faith thus losing salvation. Paul was confident of this, because God is righteous. a saint may fall away, but never enough to where he can no longer repent.

[allthingspure]

Hi godslove
Thanks for the comments, Its always good to think on Gods Word, it keeps our minds sharp :) But No, I do not have it all figured out, God is the one who gives me knowledge and understanding, one of the worst things a person can do is try to 'figure out' Gods Word. We are instructed to read and study, but it is God who gives understanding. God is not the author of confusion.
God has not made His Word so complicated that only the Bible scholars can understand it, He knows how simple minded we humans are, and He wants us all to be saved, that is why He made His word simple enough for a child to understand.
Now to the subject of Hebrews chapter 6
-------------verse 8 says “but that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.”
Matt. 7:17. “even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth evil fruit, a good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.”

Continuing on in the same line of thought....those who leave the Doctrine of Christ are those who become corrupt and bring forth thorns and briers. Those who stay in the Doctrine of Christ will bring forth good fruit, but Only because they are in Christ. Those who do not stay in the Doctrine of Christ 'Cannot' bring forth good fruit because they are corrupt.
----I believe that once God makes you a good tree, (so to speak) you kinda stay that way. Then you bring forth good fruit.

I cannot agree with this: Gen.1:31 > And God saw every thing that he had made, and behold, it was very good.
Now on to chapter 6> v.11 > And God looked upon the earth, and behold, it was corrupt; for all flesh had corrupted his way upon the earth.
Had Adam and Eve not disobeyed God they would not have gotton corrupt.
Corruption comes when 'we cease' to obey God and stay in His will.
God cleanses us from our sins, puts us on the right path to eternal life,if we do not continue on that path we will be cut off!

The only way we have eternal life is if we stay in Christ Jesus and bear fruit.
If we turn away from Him, or if we are drawn away by our own lust, and get caught up in the cares of this life, we will be cut off from eternal life to eternal damnation.
If we keep our trust in Him, and obey His word, He will continue to lead and guide us through this life, and on to life eternal.

verse 9 and 10 say. “but beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak. For God is not unrighteous to forget your labour of love, which you have showed toward his name, in that ye have ministered to the saints, and do minister.”

Yes these verses are speaking to those who are in Christ Jesus....We have hope as long as we "Stay in Him"
Jesus Christ has promised His Children eternal life, If we continue in Him.
None of Gods Children rely on themselves....thats why we are in a saved condition. The problem comes when the children get lifted up within themselves and cease to rely on their Father.
May the Lord richly Bless You
allthingspure

[godslove]

thanks blueheron32 for the encouragement, i have seen your some of your posts and it's great to have someone like you around to help us stand for what is right. may God bless you richly in Christ Jesus, God bless

[godslove]

I am so glad we can have differant opinions because how else would we learn from each other. As long as we let Jesus in our hearts and trust in him we are saved. of course if someone steps over that line i have to rebuke them harshly. but we who are saved should above all things love one another. like i said in another post its about believing in Jesus, not trusting in some doctrine for salvation.

[godslove]

amen, very well stated. God bless

[New_Man_111]

Hi godslove
Thanks for the comments, Its always good to think on Gods Word, it keeps our minds sharp :) But No, I do not have it all figured out, God is the one who gives me knowledge and understanding, one of the worst things a person can do is try to 'figure out' Gods Word. We are instructed to read and study, but it is God who gives understanding. God is not the author of confusion.
God has not made His Word so complicated that only the Bible scholars can understand it, He knows how simple minded we humans are, and He wants us all to be saved, that is why He made His word simple enough for a child to understand.
Now to the subject of Hebrews chapter 6

Continuing on in the same line of thought....those who leave the Doctrine of Christ are those who become corrupt and bring forth thorns and briers. Those who stay in the Doctrine of Christ will bring forth good fruit, but Only because they are in Christ. Those who do not stay in the Doctrine of Christ 'Cannot' bring forth good fruit because they are corrupt.

I cannot agree with this: Gen.1:31 > And God saw every thing that he had made, and behold, it was very good.
Now on to chapter 6> v.11 > And God looked upon the earth, and behold, it was corrupt; for all flesh had corrupted his way upon the earth.
Had Adam and Eve not disobeyed God they would not have gotton corrupt.
Corruption comes when 'we cease' to obey God and stay in His will.
God cleanses us from our sins, puts us on the right path to eternal life,if we do not continue on that path we will be cut off!

The only way we have eternal life is if we stay in Christ Jesus and bear fruit.
If we turn away from Him, or if we are drawn away by our own lust, and get caught up in the cares of this life, we will be cut off from eternal life to eternal damnation.
If we keep our trust in Him, and obey His word, He will continue to lead and guide us through this life, and on to life eternal.


Yes these verses are speaking to those who are in Christ Jesus....We have hope as long as we "Stay in Him"
Jesus Christ has promised His Children eternal life, If we continue in Him.
None of Gods Children rely on themselves....thats why we are in a saved condition. The problem comes when the children get lifted up within themselves and cease to rely on their Father.
May the Lord richly Bless You
allthingspure


brother,

i would like to have a disscusstion corncerning the scriputers, i can tell from reading a little of your posts that the Lord has givin you some wisdom & desernment, and though unworthy at best i also have been blessed to see past my former ignorents, that the Lord would give me understanding according to his word, according to the riches of his grace, that i might become a new man in christ unto the praise of his glory....

you said: I do not have it all figured out, God is the one who gives me knowledge and understanding, one of the worst things a person can do is try to 'figure out' Gods Word. We are instructed to read and study, but it is God who gives understanding.

it is not possable that i could agree any more then i do with you on this...and i would speek the same of myself-ward, and even to all, until that which is perfect is come and that which is in part shall be put away 1st cor 13:9-10

now then i do think that a good disscusstion, could be profitable for all onto eddification of Gods word, understanding that we all know in part...i do hope that iron can sharpen iron between the two of use and whomsoever else gets in on it, if we will pray, and get God in on it, if we let the Holy Spirit move, and not the wisdom of the flesh puff up onto confustion...

lest Satan shoul get an advantage of us: for we are not ignorent of his devices 2nd cor 2:11...amen ?

now then i have heard your words and oppions on this topic and have a few question for you if you would like to have this public disscusstion....

i have heard you speek of rightly deviding and so then that is where i would like to start i'm going to try to keep thing rightly devided. when we are studying the word to shew or selfves aproved unto God, we can either take a scripture, litterally, spiritaully, or doctrinelly right ?

so then understanding, and if we can agree that we are in the time of the gentiles, and in the dispensation of grace (eph3:1-4), and that all scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: that the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

i do beleave that we need to be careful what we take spiritally, litterally, and doctrinely, now if we can agree on that this disscusstion just might help the two of use and profit all that read it...Lest Satan should get an advatage of us....

so then i'd like to start hear rom 2:16 in that day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus christ according to my gospel..paul the aostle to the gentiles (rom 11:13) speaking through inperation of the holy ghost. and what i get from this is that we will be judged acoording to his gospel, which was revealed to him by reavelation of the Holy Ghost (eph 3:3, eph 1:6-13), which we know by the scriptures is in 1st cor 1-4..... rom 10:9-13, eph 2:8-9, col2:10-13, titus 3:5-7, 2nd cor5:17-21, 2nd tim 2:11-13, gal 2:19-21.....

so then i'd like to ask can you, (or anybody else reading, that is knowledgeable in the word of God), show me doctrinally within acts 10-philemon , where one must keep good works/producs fruit in order to keep there salvation, instead of loseing there rewards ?

understanding that there is a differents between entering in and inheriting the kingdom of God

i've heard others talk about a branch being thrown in to the fire...let us also keep this scripture in mind

1st cor 3:13-15 Everymans work shall be made manifest: for the day shall be revealed by fire: and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. if any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon he shall recieve a reward. if any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved ; yet so as by fire....

[Spiff]

just curious as to why the cut off book was philippians? cuz in the very next book of colossians it does state that we are only presented as holy and blameless and unreprovable in His sight if we continue our faith. now we cannot be saved unless we're presented as holy and blameless and unreprovable. so.. i was just wondering why colossians is not allowed to be quoted. at first i thought you were including all the pauline epistles, so i went immediately here and realized that philipians is right before colossians.

[Brad]

can we have assurance in our salvation. Yes, but there are conditions. WE must bear fruits worthy of repetance (Luke 3:8). Serving and obeying Christ by helping others. Love God, our neighbors, and our enemies. Clothe and feed the poor, visit the sick, and those in prison. Be servants to all and look at others as being more important/above ourselves. When we love God we will not do things to upset him. Walking the Christian walk 24 hours a day. We must trudge the straight and narrow road and "endure" to the end of our days here on earth (Mt. 24:13).

Can salvation be lost. Yes it can. By neglecting those things we need to be doing (Heb. 2:1-3). By "backsliding" (Jer. 3:22). Yes, once our sins are forgiven they are forever blotted out. But, new sins must be repentant of and forgiven/blotted out by God the Father, through His Son and our Saviour Christ Jesus.

[SealedEternal]

New_Man_111
so then i'd like to ask can you, (or anybody else reading, that is knowledgeable in the word of God), show me doctrinally within acts 10-philemon , where one must keep good works/producs fruit in order to keep there salvation, instead of loseing there rewards ?

Why limit God's word to Acts 10 - Philemon? Aren't the others scripture as well? Many of the clearest verses on the subject of the necessity of bearing fruit are in the Books of the Bible that you have excluded. These do not speak of losing salvation, but state that those who do not bear good fruit were never saved.

Here are some from the Books you haven't excluded:

Romans 8:13-17 for if you are living according to the flesh, you must die; but if by the Spirit you are putting to death the deeds of the body, you will live. For all who are being led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God. For you have not received a spirit of slavery leading to fear again, but you have received a spirit of adoption as sons by which we cry out, "Abba! Father!" The Spirit Himself testifies with our spirit that we are children of God, and if children, heirs also, heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him so that we may also be glorified with Him.

1Corinthians 6:9-10 Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God.

Ephesians 5:5-8 For this you know with certainty, that no immoral or impure person or covetous man, who is an idolater, has an inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God. Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience. Therefore do not be partakers with them; for you were formerly darkness, but now you are Light in the Lord; walk as children of Light

Galatians 5:16-21 But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not carry out the desire of the flesh. For the flesh sets its desire against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; for these are in opposition to one another, so that you may not do the things that you please. But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the Law. Now the deeds of the flesh are evident, which are: immorality, impurity, sensuality, idolatry, sorcery, enmities, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, disputes, dissensions, factions, envying, drunkenness, carousing, and things like these, of which I forewarn you, just as I have forewarned you, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

Colossians 1:10-14 so that you will walk in a manner worthy of the Lord, to please Him in all respects, bearing fruit in every good work and increasing in the knowledge of God; strengthened with all power, according to His glorious might, for the attaining of all steadfastness and patience; joyously giving thanks to the Father, who has qualified us to share in the inheritance of the saints in Light. For He rescued us from the domain of darkness, and transferred us to the kingdom of His beloved Son, in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins.

Colossians 3:5-6 "Therefore consider the members of your earthly body as dead to immorality, impurity, passion, evil desire, and greed, which amounts to idolatry. For it is because of these things that the wrath of God will come upon the sons of disobedience, and in them you also once walked, when you were living in them."


The Bible never does say that a true child of God can "lose their salvation" but there are many professing Christians who Christ never knew because they hadn't been born of God. I think that's where the confusion comes in. If you have had your heart regenerated by God and His Law written on it, you will practice righteousness naturally. God warns several times in scripture saying "Do not be deceived" If you practice lawlessness you were never born of God and are not His child, and will face His wrath when you die.

understanding that there is a differents between entering in and inheriting the kingdom of God

Inheriting God's Kingdom is the benefit of being His child. The verses I posted above clearly state that. Everyone who has been born again is a child of God, and all of God's children are heirs to His Kingdom. If you are not a child of God you are not an heir to His Kingdom, but are a child of the devil and will inherit eternal flames along with him. Therefore there is no distinction between "inheriting the Kingdom" and "entering in." Those who are not heirs cannot enter in.

I do believe that the Bible clearly teaches once saved always saved, but there are many verses warning us to judge ourselves with righteous judgment to determine whether we are practicing the righteousness of God or the lawlessness of the devil. That is how we know whose child we are.

SealedEternal

[phillipschwann]

The Once Saved Always Saved is a debate that has been raging for centuries, and really ought to be a non-issue with true-believers. Those who fear that an OSAS doctrine will lead new Christians into a belief that sinning is okay, can relax. God's spirit will act as conviction. Those who believe that teaching Salvation is Conditional can relax, because God sees the heart and forgives unconditionally. Personally, I'm not going to reveal my beliefs on this one. This is one of those divisions in the church that has split demoninations over and over again. It's also one of those divisions that acts as a stumbling block to the young Christian. In the end, it's God who makes the decisions not us. So why bicker.

1Co 1:10 Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment.

[SealedEternal]

Brad

can we have assurance in our salvation. Yes, but there are conditions. WE must bear fruits worthy of repetance (Luke 3:8). Serving and obeying Christ by helping others. Love God, our neighbors, and our enemies. Clothe and feed the poor, visit the sick, and those in prison. Be servants to all and look at others as being more important/above ourselves. When we love God we will not do things to upset him. Walking the Christian walk 24 hours a day. We must trudge the straight and narrow road and "endure" to the end of our days here on earth (Mt. 24:13).

You don't have assurance if you must perfectly adhere to all of your requirements by our own efforts. Are you doing all of those things, all of the time?

The issue is of the heart. We have all been born with wicked selfish hearts which we have inherited from our forefather Adam. Jesus said we must be born again to enter the Kingdom of God, which means that God Himself washes and regenerates our wicked hearts and writes the spirit of His Law upon them. Loving others above yourself is the fruit of a heart that has been renewed.

In a sense you're correct. If a person is still selfish and self centered they will not inherit the Kingdom of God. It is not mainly because of their lack of doing the things you describe that disqualifies them from God's Kingdom, but not doing them is the symptom of a heart that has not been regenerated by God. That wicked heart will disqualify someone from the Kingdom.


Can salvation be lost. Yes it can. By neglecting those things we need to be doing (Heb. 2:1-3). By "backsliding" (Jer. 3:22). Yes, once our sins are forgiven they are forever blotted out. But, new sins must be repentant of and forgiven/blotted out by God the Father, through His Son and our Saviour Christ Jesus.

You're trying to work your way into God's Kingdom by your own efforts. God is not impressed by what we do. It is our wicked hearts that is the issue that must be dealt with if we're going to be adopted into His family and become heirs to His Kingdom. If you have had your heart renewed by Him, you will do His will naturally because He has fixed the fundamental problem.

SealedEternal

[godslove]

brad: just in case you have not seen these, i have included some scriptures for your consideration

Mt 24:22. And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
Ro 8:27
And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.
Ro 8:28
And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose
Ro 8:29
For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
Ro 8:30
Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
Ro 8:31
What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?
Ro 8:32
He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?
Ro 8:33
Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth
Ro 8:34
Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.
Ro 8:35
Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?
Ro 8:36
As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.
Ro 8:37
Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us
Ro 8:38
For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
Ro 8:39
Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
God bless

[New_Man_111]

i'm thankful that we can have this discution as i hope to better understand. i'm not sure where i'm going to start but i have a few things in mind and i do hope that iron will sharpen iron, unto edifaction and beter understanding...

brother: spiff it was philemon not plilippians, and to answer bro. sealedeternal's question as well...i just wanted to limit it for to start i just want to keep things rightly devived, i was tring to keep people from takeing scriptures from hebrews-jonh 3 and aplieing them doctrinally...why because in the dispenstion of grace, the doctrine that we as gentiles are to follow is within act10-philemon: pauls epistles to the gentiles...yes i do believe that paul wrote hebrews but i believe that doctrinally is was to the Hebrews thats why it is called Hebrews, and james saids to the twelve tribes...ect..now i might go to anogher book during this descustion i don't know yet but let use not aply it doctrinally, but rather spiritaully or historically or ltterally, unless we can back it up with scripture from paul's epistles to the gentile..i.e. ye must be born agin john 3:7 [COLOR="Black"]: how to get born agin of the spirit [COLOR="Red"]rom 10:9-13, titus 3:5-7, eph 1:7, eph 2:8-9, 2nd cor 5:17...[COLOR="Black"] i would like to let the bible define it's self as much as possable by that which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual things [COLOR="Red"]1st cor 1:13-15 [COLOR="Black"] and still keeping all things deciet and in order


brother: sealedeternal

you said:

The Bible never does say that a true child of God can "lose their salvation" but there are many professing Christians who Christ never knew because they hadn't been born of God. I think that's where the confusion comes in. If you have had your heart regenerated by God and His Law written on it, you will practice righteousness naturally. God warns several times in scripture saying "Do not be deceived" If you practice lawlessness you were never born of God and are not His child, and will face His wrath when you die.

i agree complletely: i offten preach when soul winning the the bible saids that there is a differnts between confessing or faith and accually being born agian, that if any man be in christ he's a new creature old things are passed away and behold all things are become new, when i preach offten i say that the devils believe also and tremble, why, they even professed with there mouth the Jesus was the Son of God, and so i preach that just becuse you say you believe and even fear God that won't saved you but your got to be born agian: and that is yes by regeneration of the heart (titus 3:5-7) by the opration of God a curcumcision made with out hands, and i preach that one must be in a repented state of mind in order to accually receive Jesus as thier savior and be born agian, saved by grace, washed in the blood and regenarated, thereby being born of the Spirit that they might enter into the kingdom of God (whcih is not meat nor drink but is within you luke 17:31)

you said:

Inheriting God's Kingdom is the benefit of being His child. The verses I posted above clearly state that. Everyone who has been born again is a child of God, and all of God's children are heirs to His Kingdom. If you are not a child of God you are not an heir to His Kingdom, but are a child of the devil and will inherit eternal flames along with him. Therefore there is no distinction between "inheriting the Kingdom" and "entering in." Those who are not heirs cannot enter in

i am not so sniffneck as to not addmit that i'm wroung and accually i do seek to better understand, so if you don't mind wressling a little, please by all means tap me out brother, i'll have you know that you'll not be as one beeting at the air, so to say that your time is not wasted for i have ears to hear if you have time to wressle a little...

almost you persuade me, i am at a betwixt between inheritace and rewards maybe you can give me your description of the diferance... i offten preach this to those God sends my way: theres a diferance between entering in and inheriting the kingdom of God. i say that i could let you into my house but did you inherit it, do you have any inheritance in the kingdom of God, or are you just sleeping in the streets of Gold, but praise God that you had sence anought to except the free gift of eternal life through Jesus christ our Lord...

now then i wonder what is the differance between living right and works ?

what if a man got saved and became a new creature and served the Lord for many years, and then for some reason the Lord lets his family all die in a horable car accsadent and that man is weak in faith and is crusted by the tempter, he then becomes a drunk bum on the streets dosen't hate God just is so crushed that he givens up and has no will to keep runing the race and gives up before the end of his course, and just like a injuried dog curls up in a ball and awaits death...and now drinks his life away awaiting heavenly places in christ knowing he is saved yet just to weak in the faith to get his eye's of of the temporal and on that which is eternal, knowing that his family was saved also but just caught in a snare of drunkedness and despair ?

i believe that this man works will be burned up and he shall suffer loss: but himself shall be saved yet so as by fire[COLOR="Red"]1st cor 3:13-15 v16 saids that God will destroy him for defileing the temple of God which is holy which is his body, i beleive becuse he was week in faith in the mist of the strom of peracution that came apon him that God is going to destroy the house of the inheritance which where his reward for staying faithful and labouring in the fields of sin the vineyards of the Lord of harvest....consider [COLOR="Red"]2nd cor5:9-10, col 3:23

you quoted [COLOR="Red"]col 3:5-6 [COLOR="Black"] and if we look at the context it is writen to saved people if you therefore be risen with Christ implieing that the person is risen a new creture and paul is telling use there that we should not be worried of these things on the earth becuse we are hid in Christ and therefore wrath comes down on use for disobedience if they are worried and more concerned with these earthly thing then with obeneince to his word (which has been the problem from the start, sence adam & eve) but i don't take this wrath as being cast into the lake of fire, why ? ( rom 6:23,rom 11:29, ) i do how ever believe that this type of wrath is pored out on christains that take God litely and trample his grace under feet, i.e a woman that is saved and has kids, may be there saved maybe not...who knows, let's say this woman watches t.v. all the time (as many saved people do, they shouldn't but they do) and because of the constent streem of covetousness that coms from it her conversation/life style is vexed there by giving heed to sadusing spirits and doctrins of devils she now socilly accepts within here inner thoughts the wicked way of fornacation, homosexallity, and now inordinate affection becomes apart of her walk, and sence she has accepted all these things, for the sake of entertainment because she throw her bible away and turned the t.v on and just went to church twice on sunday through she used to go more offten but just became conplacent, becuse did not feed the spirit but the flesh, and because she watched to much desperit house wives and had her mind currupted (1st cor 15:33) and evently the devil had enough doors open to come in and move her to adultry, and thuse the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience and the Lord lets her son get kidnapped raped and killed by the same homosexuals the she glorafide and aceppted on the t.v. and God let's this happen to her because of her one time affair that she thought was all right because the goodmanners of her were currupted by a little leaven that the devil used to move her to sin against God in such a manner: that is a discription of how i take that scripture

[New_Man_111]

i believe that there is a differnts between a saved person & a christain & christain and a disciple

and i line this up with rom 12:1-2 good, acceptable and perfect will of God

1. i beleave that his good will is to repent call apon the name of the Lord and be born again saved person

2. acceptable will to live right lead people to the Lord go to church every time you can, train up your kids right, support a missionary....ect a christian 2nd cor 5:9 where for we labour, that,whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him v10 saids that we will reseve the thing that we have doon rather good or bad and that for our labour right.. and if you cross reffernce with col 3:23 it said the reward of your inheritance

could it be that the inheritance is becuse of acceptable labours/woks in God eye sight ? 1st tim 5:17

3. perfect will walk in the Spirit constently, for sake all for the sake of your love for Jesus, let him lead you unto the perfect will that he has predestion for you if you overcome the flesh and seek him with the whole heart

i'll end with this rom 9:16 so then it is not of him that willeth, nor him that runeth, but God that sheweth mercy

in rom 7:18-19 paul talks about for the will is present with me ; but how to perform that which is good I find not for the good that i would do i do not: but the evil which i would not that i do ? v21 I find then a law , that, when i would do good, evil is present with me

and gal 5:17 for the flesh lusteth aganst the spirit, and the spirit agianst the flesh; and these are contary the one to the other; so that ye can not do the things that ye would

now i look at these scriptures and i think that paul was a better chrisian then i will ever be and if he found that when he would to do good that evil was there with him, i can't but think that it is there for us to and some times the devil win's agenst a saved christain or even a disciple. i mean even Elijah was fixing to quit in 1st king 19 it sounds like, so i believe that even if a christian backslides/falls down and never gets up agian that still God will have mercy because it is not to him that wruneth but God that shewrth mercy titus 3:5, eph 2:8-9

but i beleive that if he dose that he will suffer loss yet he himself shall be saved, yet so as by fire 1st cor 3:15

rom 4:5-8 now to him that worketh not but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness

i look forward to the continueance of this discusetion all are welcome i have more scripture and questions if any are up to it.....


[/COLOR] [/COLOR][/COLOR][/COLOR]

[SealedEternal]

Dear New Man 111,

I'm glad to hear that we are on the same page as far as the need to be born again. All I seem to hear from professing Christians today is "belief" and "faith" but no mention of a new heart. Don't get me wrong, faith is absolutely necessary to propel you through the process of having your heart washed and regenerated, but faith in faith, or belief in some historic events will not save anyone. As you said, the demons believe and they tremble.

I used to attend a fundamentalist Bible Church that taught the concept of "Inheriting the Kingdom" as rewards as well, but I have since been convinced that this concept is false. The Kingdom itself is the object of the inheritance. It doesn't say that you are inheriting rewards after receiving entrance into the Kingdom of God, but that you are inheriting the Kingdom itself. When I read verses like I Corinthians 6:9-10 that said "Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived..." it always bothered me because it says that the Kingdom itself that will not be inherited. My old Pastor said this was a reference to rewards, but that's not what the text says.

Matthew Chapter 5 contains Jesus Christ’s Gospel of the Kingdom. It gives the prerequisites for entering His kingdom which include such things as being poor in spirit, gentle, merciful, pure in heart, peacemakers, to hunger and thirst for and persecuted for the sake of righteousness, etc. In summary, Jesus is telling us once again that we must be regenerated and receive a new heart, because no man can adhere to these principles in His fallen state.

The verses I posted before showed that it is only those who are the adopted children of God that are heirs to His Kingdom. In the verse on my signature it clearly identifies who are children of God and who are children of the devil. The "fruit" of being a child of God is practicing righteousness and not practicing lawlessness. The Church I used to attend spoke of "carnal Christians." What an oxymoron! If you are walking according to your flesh, you are not a born again Christian by definition. I'm surprised that you reject easy believism but still accept this doctrine. Normally it is promoted by easy believers who say you can accept Christ and then continue to practice lawlessness but doing so will cost you rewards in the Kingdom.

God won't pour out His wrath on Christians because true Christians have been fundamentally changed by God Himself. Using your example, a person who has been born of God will not wander around drunk for the rest of his life because of some tragedy in this world. We are not of this world and we are not attached to the things of this world because they are passing away and we are not. Look at the example of Job. He trusted God no matter how rough things got. If tragedy in this life causes you to turn your back on God then you never knew or trusted Him.

The Bible is clear that God's children will not practice sin. In regard to your other example, I don't believe that anyone who is born of God does watch television all of the time. I turned from that junk when God renewed my heart, just as I turned from numerous other fruitless worldly pursuits. If I did subject myself to that stuff, my regenerate heart would be disgusted with the fornication, adultery, homosexuality, violence etc. That's why the apostle John told us that those who practice sin are not God's children. If sin doesn't disgust you then you haven't had your heart renewed.

The Bible is clear that our fruit is the evidence of what type of "tree" we are. If your fruit is rotten you are Satan's "tree." If your fruit is righteous then you are Christ's "tree."

SealedEternal

[Brad]

SealedEternal and godslove. Of course you cannot work your way into heaven. It is only by God's mercy, love, and grace that anyone enters heaven. You have to have the strength of the Spirit within you in order to live according to God's purposes (Rom. chapters 8 & 9). Have I visited the sick? Yes; have I visited those in prison? Yes; have I helped feed and clothe the poor? Yes. Will that get me into heaven? No! Why did I do such things because Jesus said to and I was priviledged to have to opportunity to do so, thanks to Gods mercy and grace. "Faith without works is dead" James 2:17). Do I love all people. I hope so. When I say the Lord's prayer I do not want to be a hyprocrite. When I come to "as we forgive" I search my heart to see if I have forgiven all who have tresspassed/is a debtor to me. The Bible gives you assurance of salvation. John 3:16. And if you consider the verses I previously posted, they are scripture and therefore true.

As for the elect and predestined. When God completed His creation including man and woman, He beheld "it was very good" (Gen. 1:31). God predestined before creation that all human kind would be good and be part of the Kingdom of God. However, there was a flaw in humans. Adam and Eve sinned by disobeying their Creator. God was sorry He made humans (Gen. 6:5-6). But as the disciple John wrote "God is Love." He sent our Lord Jesus to die as a perfect (sinless) sacrifice upon the Cross. So that anyone can be saved IF they chose. Man has freewill. God recognizes that more will choose the way of destruction rather than that of salvation. God knows man (Gen. 8:21). Few will be saved because of their sinful nature and unrepentant hearts.

And who are the "elect"? They are those who through faith have believed and given themselves over to God. They are those who "endure" and live according to the Spirit and not to the flesh. Those who are tempted and resist the devil. Those who like King David have sinned, but have repented of their sins and went and sinned no more (John 5:18; 8:11). If God says we can be perfect in love, who are we to disagree. It is not easy to love all especially our "enemy" (Luke 6:27,35). I may fail at first, but God expects me to continue to work on it till I can love my enemy. It does not mean I have to approve of what they do. But I must love as God loves. Because my behaviour may someday bring them to the cross. Being a Christian is not an easy choice to make. It requires sacrifice and humbleness. It can cause those about you to put you down and even hate you. Living as a Christian (at least this Chrisitan) involved doubt, mistakes, tears, forced humility, acceptance, and time. As I said it is not a cakewalk, but it can be done by those who are willing to do what it takes.

[OneJoe]

As for the elect and predestined. When God completed His creation including man and woman, He beheld "it was very good" (Gen. 1:31). God predestined before creation that all human kind would be good and be part of the Kingdom of God. However, there was a flaw in humans. Adam and Eve sinned by disobeying their Creator. God was sorry He made humans (Gen. 6:5-6). But as the disciple John wrote "God is Love." He sent our Lord Jesus to die as a perfect (sinless) sacrifice upon the Cross. So that anyone can be saved IF they chose. Man has freewill. God recognizes that more will choose the way of destruction rather than that of salvation. God knows man (Gen. 8:21). Few will be saved because of their sinful nature and unrepentant hearts.

Hi brad, what you have said here could not be further from the truth. The bible is clear that God only predestined the elect or chosen according to HIS purpose. I'm not sure who told you otherwise or if you missed a few verses which speak on this issue such as Eph 1:5, 1:11. Notice these scriptures refer ONLY to the elect or children of God, not every human. I hope you reread what you said and compare that to scripture. Yes, after God had completed the task of making the heavens and earth he did say it was very good. Adam and eve were made in the perfect image of God. How then do you say there was a flaw in them? If they were made perfect, i'm sorry but no there is not a flaw. God made Adam and Eve in his perfect image knowing no sin. They indeed had the ability to choose right or wrong because that is how God designed them. However, by disobeying God he said ....in that day thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die (Gen 2:17). Later we see the result of their disobedience. Gen 3:7 And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons...... By their disobedience we see they suffered a spiritual matter. This was the death which God told them of. They suffered a spiritual death in that day of disobedience. To verify this, we can take a look at the New testament.

Rom 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

Here we see their spiritual "death" is verified in the new testament also. By the sin of one man which was Adam, a spiritual death passed upon "all" men and for that "all" have sinned. Because of Adam's transgression against God, we have all became sinners and would therefore suffer the penalty of death had it not been for our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. Now, since we are dead in our sins, what is the result of "death"? When I die and i'm buried six feet under, what will my body do? Nothing! My body will not be capable of doing anything. Remember Lazarus? Lazarus had died and was already buried. He could not come alive on his own. The same thing applies to our spiritual death. We can not go from a spiritual death to eternal life on our own.

You said "So that anyone can be saved IF they chose". The reason this is unscriptural is because of our spiritual death. Lazarus was dead. We were all once dead in our sins as many are still today. We could not seek after God because our death from sin wouldn't permit it. Scripture says: Rom 3:11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. Scripture is clear that "none" seek after God...no not one. This is true because we are incapable of it. Notice in another reference the bible says: 1Co 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. Here, we see yet another instance where the natural man (dead in his sins) can not know the things of God. He does not seek after them and he can not know them. His condition has him in complete rebellion against God. The natural man wants nothing to do with God. He enjoys the pleasure of the flesh. He enjoys his sin. Our spiritual death has us all in the same situation as what Lazarus was in. He could not come to life on his own. Christ told Lazarus to come forth. What happened here? The answer is that dead man was called by our Lord. The process of salvation has nothing to do with us as we might like to think it does. The process is all of God. Rom 9:16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that showeth mercy. According to this scripture, we see that it was not of our will but of God's. God quickens (brings to life) us from death to life and calls us and those that bare fruit are God's chosen, his elect. They bare fruit because Christ is working in them.

Phi 1:6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:
Col 2:13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;
Mat 22:14 For many are called, but few are chosen.
1Pe 2:9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should show forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvelous light:

You are right about one thing. God does know many more will choose the path of destruction. Destruction is all they will choose because the natural man dead in his sins does not seek after the things of God. He chooses only what is not of God. He loves his sin. He rebells against God with every fiber of his being. This is all he can do until the almighty God above chooses to quicken that person from death to life and call them to his saving grace. This is why it is so important for us to spread the word of God. We must get others under the hearing of the word of God because God grants faith by the hearing of the Gospel. They hear the word, God quickens their spirit, calls them, they gladly receive the Gospel because he is regenerating their heart, and HE chooses that person and they therefore go on to produce fruit, visit the sick, feed the poor, and most of all spread the good news of God's saving grace.

And who are the "elect"? They are those who through faith have believed and given themselves over to God. They are those who "endure" and live according to the Spirit and not to the flesh. Those who are tempted and resist the devil. Those who like King David have sinned, but have repented of their sins and went and sinned no more (John 5:18; 8:11). If God says we can be perfect in love, who are we to disagree. It is not easy to love all especially our "enemy" (Luke 6:27,35). I may fail at first, but God expects me to continue to work on it till I can love my enemy. It does not mean I have to approve of what they do. But I must love as God loves. Because my behaviour may someday bring them to the cross.

I agree with what you said before this. The elect will endure and go on to better things. They will not again lay the foundations for repentance or fall away. (Heb 6) The reason they will not is because Christ lives in them.Gal 2:20I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

Being a Christian is not an easy choice to make. It requires sacrifice and humbleness. It can cause those about you to put you down and even hate you. Living as a Christian (at least this Chrisitan) involved doubt, mistakes, tears, forced humility, acceptance, and time. As I said it is not a cakewalk, but it can be done by those who are willing to do what it takes.

I found this statement interesting..:-) You said being a Christain is not an easy choice. I agree that for the man dead in his sin it is an impossible choice as I believe I have clearly explained why. Now however, once GOD has brought them from death to life and chose them to inherit the kingdom of heaven, it is more than easy enough...:-) Also, your right it can be done by those willing but as I have exlplained, the natural man is not willing and only after God does the work of saving us will we be willing. I want you to know as I close this post, I did not mean for anything to sound harsh or sarcastic in any way. I have taken the time to put this post up (sorry for length) in hopes of showing correction on some very important issues regarding God's word. I hope when you read this post that you will see the truth as I have presented it. Until next time, may the Lord bless you and keep you!


Onejoe

[SealedEternal]

Salvation is a relationship, and as with any relationship requires both parties to be in agreement. It is true that God draws us to Him first, but it is also true that He will not force anyone to love Him against our will. The Jews were a perfect example of this. Jesus said He desired for them to come to Him and accept Him as their Messiah but they refused and rejected Him.

Matthew 23:37 "Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling.

He wanted to save them, but they were unwilling. Stephen said the same thing just before these hard hearted people stoned him to death:

Acts 7:51 "You men who are stiff-necked and uncircumcised in heart and ears are always resisting the Holy Spirit; you are doing just as your fathers did.

God sends His Spirit to everyone in the world, to draw us to Him, but most people resist Him. He said He sent His Son in the flesh because He desired that the whole world be saved. It is not because of God that most people follow the broad way to destruction but it is our own rejection of Him.

John 3:16-18 "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life. "For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him. "He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

All are invited by God to drink of the living water, but few accept because of our own pride and rebellion.

Revelation 22:17 The Spirit and the bride say, "Come." And let the one who hears say, "Come." And let the one who is thirsty come; let the one who wishes take the water of life without cost.

God says that it is our rejection of Him that results in our judgment. To suggest that He rejects us first is unscriptural and makes Him out to be unjust.

John 12:47-48 "If anyone hears My sayings and does not keep them, I do not judge him; for I did not come to judge the world, but to save the world. "He who rejects Me and does not receive My sayings, has one who judges him; the word I spoke is what will judge him at the last day.

It is us that rejects Him to our own destruction. He desires that all come to Him to be saved, but because of our own wickedness we reject Him.

SealedEternal

[pop james]

AMEN.....very well said Joe......oh the truth of GODs sovereingty rings out like a bell when explained in light of the scriptures........I will agree with Brad in that being a Christian is not for SISSYS.......Pop

[OneJoe]

HI sealedeternal
Salvation is a relationship, and as with any relationship requires both parties to be in agreement. It is true that God draws us to Him first, but it is also true that He will not force anyone to love Him against our will. The Jews were a perfect example of this. Jesus said He desired for them to come to Him and accept Him as their Messiah but they refused and rejected Him.

Our salvation is according to his will. He chooses who will be saved. Does he force us to love him? Who ever said he does? We are incapable of loving him. We do not care to love the things of God. God gives us a heart to love him because it is HIS will. Who can resist his will? Who can say unto him, what doest thou?

Matthew 23:37 "Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling.

What version are you reading? I have searched so many versions and have yet to find any which match your exact passage. Nevertheless, i ask you to read your chapter again. Notice who is being spoken to here. These people would not be willing. They are hypocrites which outwardly appear righteous. These are not children of God therefore they have not been given a heart to serve him.


Acts 7:51 "You men who are stiff-necked and uncircumcised in heart and ears are always resisting the Holy Spirit; you are doing just as your fathers did.

Once again, our natural nature causes us to resist. We can not know the things of God without God first interveneing. How many times will it take for people to see that these people perish because God did not intervene in their lives? These peoples only hope rests with God.

God sends His Spirit to everyone in the world, to draw us to Him, but most people resist Him. He said He sent His Son in the flesh because He desired that the whole world be saved. It is not because of God that most people follow the broad way to destruction but it is our own rejection of Him.

Actually, no God does not send his spirit to everyone in the world. I have not read one scripture that says he does. What I have read is that he sends his spirit to those who believe on the Son and on the Father who sent him. Their are several scriptures which speak of the spirit coming down upon certain people, but of which are all believers.

John 3:16-18 "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life. "For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him. "He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Yes this scripture says "whoever" beleives. But the problem once again is we are incapable of believeing unless God grants us faith by his word. If God didn't grant faith then you nor I could believe. Once again, we are dependant on God. Also, to post this one scripture which states he loved the world is no grounds to build a doctrine on. Compare this scripture to: Eph 5:25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it; Here we see that Christ loved the church(elect) so much that he died for them, not the world with all its inhabitants. When compared to John 3:16, it wouldn't be much of a stretch to say that "whoever" in John 3:16 is referring to those who God has predestined before the world began. In this case, "whoever" and "world" must harmonize. It would appear that Christ loving the world was because of the chosen ones. After all, their was much wickedness in the world also and God does not love evil.

All are invited by God to drink of the living water, but few accept because of our own pride and rebellion.

Wrong..:-) Mat 22:14 For many are called, but few are chosen. It doesn't get any clearer than this. God does not call or invite everyone. He has called many, but not all people. 2Ti 2:20 But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honor, and some to dishonor. Rom 9:21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honor, and another unto dishonor? Rom 9:22 What if God, willing to show his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: Rom 9:23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,


Revelation 22:17 The Spirit and the bride say, "Come." And let the one who hears say, "Come." And let the one who is thirsty come; let the one who wishes take the water of life without cost.

Great scripture! He who has ears let him hear. But not everyone hears SealedEternal. Some are slow of hearing. O