Who was the Church built on?

[Warrior4Truth]

It is my understanding that the Catholic Church believes that the church was built on Peter. If I am wrong correct me. Is this true or was Jesus saying that He was the rock that the Church would be built on and He was just telling Peter who he was. Your response on this is most helpful.

And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. Matthew 16:18

[SealedEternal]

The Catholic Church builds their entire case on this one verse, but we are told throughout scripture who is the true cornerstone of our faith.

Isaiah 28:16 Therefore thus says the Lord GOD, "Behold, I am laying in Zion a stone, a tested stone, A costly cornerstone for the foundation, firmly placed. He who believes in it will not be disturbed.

Ephesians 2:19-22 So then you are no longer strangers and aliens, but you are fellow citizens with the saints, and are of God's household, having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus Himself being the corner stone, in whom the whole building, being fitted together, is growing into a holy temple in the Lord, in whom you also are being built together into a dwelling of God in the Spirit.

Acts 4:11 "He is the STONE WHICH WAS REJECTED by you, THE BUILDERS, but WHICH BECAME THE CHIEF CORNER stone.

1 Corinthians 10:4 and all drank the same spiritual drink, for they were drinking from a spiritual rock which followed them; and the rock was Christ.

Romans 9:32-33 Why? Because they did not pursue it by faith, but as though it were by works. They stumbled over the stumbling stone, just as it is written, "BEHOLD, I LAY IN ZION A STONE OF STUMBLING AND A ROCK OF OFFENSE, AND HE WHO BELIEVES IN HIM WILL NOT BE DISAPPOINTED."

1 Peter 2:4-8 And coming to Him as to a living stone which has been rejected by men, but is choice and precious in the sight of God, you also, as living stones, are being built up as a spiritual house for a holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ. For this is contained in Scripture: "BEHOLD, I LAY IN ZION A CHOICE STONE, A PRECIOUS CORNER stone, AND HE WHO BELIEVES IN HIM WILL NOT BE DISAPPOINTED." This precious value, then, is for you who believe; but for those who disbelieve, "THE STONE WHICH THE BUILDERS REJECTED, THIS BECAME THE VERY CORNER stone," and, "A STONE OF STUMBLING AND A ROCK OF OFFENSE"; for they stumble because they are disobedient to the word, and to this doom they were also appointed.

Jesus Christ is the rock that His Church is built upon. No fallable man is worthy or capable of holding such a position.

SealedEternal

SealedEternal

[Warrior4Truth]

That has always been my understanding as well Sealed, and what I hold to as the truth. So why then would Catholics believe that Peter was the rock that the Church was built on when scripture clearly states that Jesus is the rock? Also with the popes. There has been an unbroken line of them since Peter at least that is what I have been told by Catholics. What can we say about that? Does it have an significanice?

[larry]

SealedEternal hit it right on the head. They also believe that only Peter was given the keys to heaven, but all Christians have them; they are the word of God. The word of God opens the door to the kingdom.

What ever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven is whosoever believes and receives those keys, or the word of God is bound for heaven. Those that do not are lost or loosed. At least this is what I've been led to understand.

They interpret the above binding and loosing to mean that whatever they say is the new way God will judge in real simplified language.

[Lordhelpme]

When Christ stated "Upon this rock I will build my church." He was talking about Peter's faith. Jesus also said, "My Father revealed this to you." That He is the Christ. God revealed to Peter that Jesus is the Christ because of his faith.

Christianity is built on faith and Peter showed it.

[New_Man_111]

Also with the popes. There has been an unbroken line of them since Peter at least that is what I have been told by Catholics. What can we say about that? Does it have an significanice?

something that you can add to your catholic arsonal is this

matthew 8:14 and when Jesus was come into Peter's house, he saw his wife's mother laid, and sick of a fever

that there show that peter had a wife, and the catholics think that their spiritual because they abstain from merrage, which is a doctrine of devils accoring to the word of God.

1st tim4:1-3 Now the spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils; v2 Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having thier conscience seard with a hot iron; v3 Forbiding to merry,....

and check out this acts 10:25-26 and peter was coming in, cornelius met him, and fell down at his feet, and worshiped him. v26 but peter took him up saying, stand up; I myself also am a man. if the popes want to be so much like peter they ote to not let those they have led astay worship and kiss there feet, but heres the problem they think that they take the spot of God here on earth...

theres some more ammo for ya that you might continue to previel as a warrior of truth... ( this is a god scripture for your name 2nd cor 10:3-6 ) God bless you brother, if you need any more cathlic ammo let me know i have alittle more...

I have a question also it is my understanding that the false prophet will come out of the catholic church ? dose anybody have some scripture saporting this or proving it wroung, that i might better understand.

i also believe that in rev 17 the mother of all harlets which is drunken with the blood of the saints is the catholic church. because it saids that she sits upon seven mountins and i heard that rome is upon seven mountins ? [/COLOR]

[Warrior4Truth]

You know it is funny, I just recently learned that Peter had a wife. I had always assumed that he was unmarried. However could it be possible that where they get their belief of not marrying from Paul? In 1Corithians 7 Paul talks about marriage and how it is better to live a celibate life because you do not have to worry about having your attention divided between your wife and God. I understand that this gives no ground to the argument that it is required to be unmarried to be Pope, but still it is something to think about.

I agree with you about the kissing the feet and the rings and all that stuff. As the spiritual head they do deserve respect, but it seems that, that is carrying a little to far. The Pope should not be seen as something more than he is. He is a servant of the people and God, not a king.

I believe that the Catholic Church, in its beginning was on the right path, but it seems to me that they have strayed from the truth. This is only my speculation, that is why I am learning. As I said this is my speculation it is not my offical carved in stone no turning back standing. GBU

[New_Man_111]

I believe that the Catholic Church, in its beginning was on the right path, but it seems to me that they have strayed from the truth. This is only my speculation, that is why I am learning. As I said this is my speculation it is not my offical carved in stone no turning back standing. GBU

check this out brother http://www.chick.com/reading/tracts/0071/0071_01.asp

http://www.chick.com/reading/tracts/0074/0074_01.asp

[Warrior4Truth]

Thanks for the links NewMan11. I am going to do some more research on this and see what catholics have to say about these things. GBU

[pop james]

CHRIST...........is the foundation and the head of the church....foundation acts 4:11,12-1cor 3:11 head eph 5:23
Peter explains that the church is built on living stones 1peter 2:5 and they confess that CHRIST is the SON of GOD and that CHRIST Himself is the chief cornerstone
Of course the word church means "called out ones" and since it is GOD who has called us out and JESUS who has redeemed us it would be a misconception to think that we,the elect, are built upon any one but our sovereign GOD.......GOD bless..............Pop

[SealedEternal]

That has always been my understanding as well Sealed, and what I hold to as the truth. So why then would Catholics believe that Peter was the rock that the Church was built on when scripture clearly states that Jesus is the rock? Also with the popes. There has been an unbroken line of them since Peter at least that is what I have been told by Catholics. What can we say about that? Does it have an significanice?

In my studies on this matter it seems that the Emperor Constantine was the first "pope" although I don't think he used that title. He was the Pontificus Maximus of the pagan mystery religions of Rome at that time until he supposedly converted to Christianity. From what I undestand he continued to be the head of the pagan temples and the Christian so-called "Church" at the same time. This is where pagan ideas started to be blended with Christian terminology to create a hybrid religion of Catholicism.

Pop James is absolutely correct about the meaning of the Greek word "ekklesia" which is translated in virtually all of our modern English Bibles as Church. The word “ekklesia” comes from two Greek words: Ek means out and Kaleo means call, and this is the verb form. When we put the two together and write the noun form of it, it is Ekklesia and means "a called out assembly". This is the way it is always used in the Greek language. It means an assembly of people who are called out for a purpose. In the context of "Christ's Church" in means the people who He has called out of the world to do His will.

I believe this word has been intentionally used to mislead people as to who the true "Church" really is. It is not any denomination or religious institution, nor is it a building where people worship or a worship service. The true Church consists of those who have been called out of the world by Christ by placing our faith in him, been spiritually reborn with the Holy Spirit of God, and adopted into His family eternally. Most people today have bought into this false pretext which makes them susceptable to the many deceivers who claim they hold the power of salvation by claiming they are the one true "Church."

SealedEternal

[Warrior4Truth]

Thanks for the insight Sealed. It is very helpful. GBU

[hearthammer]

I did not read the rest of the replies on this thread. maybe this has already been mentioned. Peter was named peter by Jesus. Peter in the greek is petra it means stone or pebble. A stone or a pebble is not a rock that you would build something on. Jesus however is refferred to several times as being the Rock. Hope this helps take and God Bless

[Lordhelpme]

Yes Pop, Christ is the foundation, but lets look at what is written. "Upon this rock I will build my Church." So you're saying it means, Upon this (Myself) I will build my church. It doesn't make sense. Whether or not anyone believed Jesus, He is the foundation. As you stated church means "called out ones." So how I understand this verse is, Upon this Rock (Faith), I will build my church (called out ones). Because Peter showed great faith that is where the believers come into Christ's church.

THIS SCRIPTURE IS NOT ABOUT PETER, ITS ABOUT FAITH.

Remember the woman who touched the hem of His garment, Christ said, thy "FAITH" has made thee whole. Peter's great "FAITH" in Jesus "the foundation", (was GOD before the foundations of the earth) allowed His Father in Heaven to reveal those things which are spiritual to Him, because of His faith. How can Jesus Christ build a Church without believers. We are saved by "FAITH", and Jesus gave His life so we all might be "SAVED." THIS SCRIPTURE IS NOT ABOUT PETER, ITS ABOUT FAITH.

Remember in the beginning was the word and the word was God and the word was with God. Christ is everlasting. The Foundation has always been there, HE'S eternal just like the Father. Jesus did not start building His church until He came in the flesh and after that particular verse.

Jesus's church is not built on Peter or any other person. Jesus' church is built by believers.

[Rufus]

Jesus's church is not built on Peter or any other person. Jesus' church is built by believers.

Jesus Christ's church is not built by believers:

"And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it." - Matthew 16:18

The builder is Jesus Christ and the church is His.

If you believe that the Bible is self-defining there are only two possible definitions for the word "rock". It is either a physical rock such as seen in:

"And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:" - Revelation 6:16

or a spiritual rock such as described in Corinthians...

"And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ." - 1 Corinthians 10:4

While I adore your zeal for faith, I believe the correct definition of "rock" in Matthew 16:18 can only be for our Lord.

[pop james]

CHRIST is also the ROCK.......there are many scriptures that compare GOD/JESUS to a/the rock.
GOD(the ROCK) as creator of HIS people...deut 32:18
GOD (the ROCK) as strength of HIS people..ps 18:12- 67:2
GOD (the ROCK) as defense of HIS people..psalm 31:2,3
There are many more but I will not take the time, but, I do want to give you this one...."and did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual ROCK that followed (accompanied) them: and that ROCK was CHRIST". 1cor10:4

the word ROCK in matthew 16:18 is the same greek word used in 1cor 10:4......petra which means the cliff of the rock....

faith, which means beliefe of testimony, is MANY things..over the years I have looked at faith in all its glorious ways to the believer, but, can not say that faith is the rock spoken of as you are using it here. Faith is essential to the Church but can not,as i can see, BE the church......GOD bless......Pop

[Wendell]

And again, When Jesus said, .." Upon this Rock, I will build my church,"... He was not referring to Peter, but rather to Peters, testimony of who Christ was....

"Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God..." That is the Rock upon which Christ built his church, and continues to build his church... It is himself, the Son of the Living God...

blue..

[Pilgrim4truth]

Yes, yes, yes and amen Blueheron32

[Brad]

Catholic traditon does not believe Peter is the foundation of the church. They believe that Peter was the main leader of the church in Rome. Tradition has it that Peter was crucified at Rome during Nero's persecution of the Christians. The Catholics see Peter as the first Bishop of Rome. Therefore, each succeeding Pope (Bishop of the Catholic Church) is seen as the unbroken chain of Bishops of the Catholic Church. This became a big deal when Constatine moved the Roman Capital eastward to Constantinople. There was an argument over where the Head of the church was to be located. Some believed that the Head of the Church should be where the Roman Emporer was located in Constantinople. Others argued that the head of the Church should be in Rome because Peter had been the Bishop there and died there. What came about was a split of the church. This split created the Roman Catholic Church and the Eastern Orthodox Church.

[Spiritwarrior]

Peter, you, and the other 10 (minus Judus) are the foundation of "the body of Christ", the church. You Peter, and the others are My Disciples, "the rock" on which I build my church. They were the foundation on which Jesus built His chuch. He was talking to the first of the followers that would make up & begin His bride, us, His body! The Catholic church, sad to say, is blinded to the truth and are decieving millions. And I thank God that He has shown me His truth! Amen!! The book of Romans says, "Whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord Jesus Christ shall be saved. It doesn't say just Catholics.. does it? Peter was just a man, as is any man. He is no more worthy of heaven than you or me. That is my answer to you.
Grace to you,
Spirit~

[Wendell]

There is no biblical evidence whatsoever that Peter was ever in Rome, let alone the leader of the church there....Tradition does not equal truth.... More Romish lies..

blue

[MOISES]

There Is Only One Savior And Lord And That Is The Savior And Lord Of Jesus Christ , The One That Saved Jesus And That Jesus Prayed To .jesus Prayed To Him And He Answered Him

[OneJoe]

Jesus Christ is our Lord and savior. Are you really saying someone saved Jesus Christ? God sent his son into this world so that the world through him might be saved. The Father calls us, but it is by the savior Jesus Christ and his shed blood that we are saved. Maybe I misunderstood what you were trying to say?

[Brad]

Blueheron - your right it is not "biblical." That is why I said "traditional." A lot of Protestants believe this may have happened also. Quite often myth has a kernal of turth in it. Since you don't know whether Peter was in Rome or not either, I think calling it a lie is not right.

[ndybwoi]

well from what you quoted, " that thou art Peter, and upon "this" rock I will build my church. that could be interpreted as Peter as being the rock, right?

[Lordhelpme]

Thank you Spirit Warrior that is what I believe and tried to relay in my post.