free will and pre-destiny

[snowfloater]

Exodus 17:9 Moses said to Joshua, "Choose men for us, and go out, fight with Amalek. Tomorrow I will stand on the top of the hill with God's rod in my hand."
Can a man make a choice without free will?

Numbers 16:5 And he spoke1696 unto413 Korah7141 and unto413 all3605 his company,5712 saying,559 Even tomorrow1242 the LORD3068 will show3045 (853) who834 are his, and who is holy;6918 and will cause him to come near7126 unto413 him: even him whom834 he hath chosen977 will he cause to come near7126 unto413 him.
God chooses who will be near to Him.
Numbers 16:7 and put fire in them, and put incense on them before Yahweh tomorrow: and it shall be that the man whom Yahweh does choose, he shall be holy: you take too much on yourselves, you sons of Levi.
God chooses us to be his saints. Not the other way around. The Jews thought they were all holy but they found out who the elect were. Is this an example of God hardening the hearts of some so that others would understand His omnipotence? The leaders of the rebellion against Moses were swallowed by the earth and their followers burned to a crisp. If it was an act of free will for these men to rebel then God is good. If it was Gods will that these men should rebel to prove a point then is it an example of creating a lesser evil for the greater good? Is our idea of good and evil the same as Gods? God’s thoughts are not our thoughts. They are higher than the heavens to the earth in comparison.

Deuteronomy 7:6 For you are a holy people to Yahweh your God: Yahweh your God has chosen you to be a people for his own possession, above all peoples who are on the face of the earth.
God chooses us to be His possession. We don’t choose to be His possessions.
Deuteronomy 30:19 I call heaven and earth to witness against you this day, that I have set before you life and death, the blessing and the curse: therefore choose life, that you may live, you and your seed;
If God did not give us fee will then why set a choice of blessing or curse before us? Without free will we are either blessed or cursed, it would not be a choice.
Joshua 24:15 And if it seem evil unto you to serve Jehovah, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were beyond the River, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve Jehovah.
So we can choose to serve God, denoting free will, but God must choose us to be His servants, denoting pre-destiny. In reference to Deu 7:6 as compared to Jos 24:15

Proverb 1:28 Then will they call on me, but I will not answer. They will seek me diligently, but they will not find me;
Proverb1:29 because they hated knowledge, and didn't choose the fear of Yahweh
If we can choose the fear of Yahweh and love knowledge then He will answer and we can find Him when we diligently seek Him. This sounds like free will to me.

Isaiah66:4 I also will choose their delusions, and will bring their fears on them; because when I called, none did answer; when I spoke, they did not hear: but they did that which was evil in my eyes, and chose that in which I didn't delight."
God chose us to have delusions that would cause us to not answer, hear, or do that which was evil in His eyes? Or were the delusions and fears Punishment for our free will choice to not answer, hear, and to do evil.
It is clearly pre-destiny, Gods choice, who will be His chosen, His saints. Yet He chose all the Jews to be His and their free will choices separated them from Him. I know pre-destiny and free will are not supposed to be able to mix but we must not lean on our own understanding. If there was no free will than how could we be judged by God when it was His will for us not to be saints? If there was no pre-destiny then how could He know our beginning from our end? I can not comprehend how the two can mix but God is omniscient, omnipresent, and anything is possible to HIM.

[KYhillbilly]

snowfloater,

It depends on one's definition of free-will. If our wills were not governed by anything at all, we would not be slaves of sin when we are unregenerate, and we would not have a heart for Christ when we are regenerate. Fact is, our wills are governed either by our sinful nature or by the Holy Spirit. They are, by definition, 'wills', that is, not the choice itself, but the mental and spiritual force that drives us to choose what we choose.

The change from self to Christ is a change of that will, which can only be accomplished by God, and this we know must happen for anyone to be saved. Men don't have the power to regenerate themselves or anyone else spiritually. For God to do this thing under no compulsion by or merit of men, it must be by His own sovereign act. And yet, God does not change every man, thus it must be His own choice (election) to whom He will give this gift.

None deserve it. We would all be righteously condemned if it were not for His grace in salvation. It's not as if those who never come to Christ want to do so and are denied. Christ turns none away. But as John 6 tells us, only those the Father draws will come. They are not better people, they are people God has changed at the deepest level, the will.

How this squares with what we see and experience daily is this, we are not compelled to choose sin by any opposing force against our will. We choose it freely. God does not force us to sin. Even Satan and his minions do not force us. The root of the sin is in us and is what drives us to sin. The root of sin even prevents us from doing any truly righteous act, because at some level even an action (or thought or speech) is always to serve self, and not God and grows from pride, or lust, or some other tainted aspect of our soul. This is why we are tempted...because the sin appeals to us, not because it does not appeal to us. The Christian still sins (though a Christian is at war with sin every day) because he is not yet made actually perfect. Our will is to please God now, but we are not completely free of the pull of sin until we are glorified. Our justification is not based on our actual perfection, but on Christ's in whom we have placed our faith.

[blueheron32]

Snowfloater...

To answer your queston, snow, Yes..a man can make choices without a so called free will. According to your concept of free will, and correct me if i am wrong; A man stands at a fork in the road and chooses. On the one hand is a road leading to rebellion and disobedience, and destruction. On the other hand is a road that leads to obedience, and righteousness and life. The matter is a simple one, the man simply determines freely, for himself which road he will take.

This imagery is closely held by many well meaning folks who are seemingly unable to see any other possibility. But the question is not what does a man believe, the question is what does God say? Does God say that as man stands at that fork in the road he is capable of making such a decision? Is he able to freely make one choice or the other ? Frankly God denies that possiblility out of hand.

Jeremiah 10:23 "O Lord, I know that the way of man is not in himself: it is not in man that walketh to direct his steps." and again..

Proverbs 16:9 "A mans heart plans his way: but the Lord directeth his steps."

Instead God declares that man left to himself at that crossroad will without exception choose the wrong fork. No one will seek God, no one will follow after righteousness. Rom 3:10-18

As a man stands at that crossroad, Snow, he does not make a choice with a "free" will, but rather chooses according to his fallen nature.

Jer 17:9 "The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked, who can know it? "

He will always choose the road to destruction because that is his nature. He loves his sin and he loves to keep company with those who sin like him. So the road he chooses is well traveled.

The idea of free will is just one more act of rebellion against God and the plain statements of scripture. It is fallen, spiritually dead man, shaking his fist at God declaring... How dare you say I am dead in sin? How dare you say I cannot become a christian my way? It is my choice to come to you whenever I am good and ready. I will decide!!! Those are the sentiments of rebellion...How dare God presuime to suggest some have been chosen for destruction. But God silences that protest.

Romans 9:19-23 "Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? What if God, willin got shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory."

Is it not Gods choice as God to do as he wills? And who is man to protest?

You gave a couple verses that seem to imply free will Snow, and I applaud you. I have waited months for these verses to be brought forward, and finally someone did it. :-) But your examples do not prove free will, rather, they illustrate just what I have been saying above.

Deut 30:19 "I call heaven and earth to record this day against you that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live."

Does God present life and death and blessing and cursing as a choice to be determined by a free will? No, he does not. He does not present the two as a choice, he simply says, there are the two roads. Death and cursing lay to the left, life and blessing lay to the right. Does he tell them to choose one or the other? No. He commands them...Choose life!! Whenever God presents that fork in the road , he declares and commands, what the choice is to be. Even as he says..Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ...it is not a choice....it is a command. To disobey simply demonstrates a desperately wicked heart.

Joshua 24:15 is an excellent verse snow, But in your eagerness to preserve the idea of free will you have completely missed the reality of the choice Joshua presented. Does he say, Choose between the false gods and the one true God? Not at all, read it again more carefully. First he establishes the probable mindset of the people he was addressing. "If it seem evil unto you to serve the Lord," How many times does God call Israel a rebellious and stiffnecked people? Many times. They were a sinfull fallen people and the idea of traveling the road to life and blessing was an evil thing to most of them. So he says to them, if serving the Lord is an evil thing to you, choose the God you will serve. Which ones do you want; and then he gives them the choice. Not between the true God and a false one, but between two false gods... those on the other side of the river from where they had just come or the ones on this side of the river in the land to which they had come.

If the worship of the true God is an evil to you, which is the case of all who are yet unsaved, all the false gods of the world are before you... go ahead, take your pick. Then Joshua makes a simple declaration that has always separated those God has chosen from the rest... "As for me and my house we will serve the Lord." Joshua does not suggest he serves the Lord as a result of his choice. He simply describes the nature of the one who has been born of God. We will serve the Lord.

Proverbs 1:28-29 if understood according to a heart that insists that the man who is dead in tresspasses and sin and in bondage to satan is able of himself to overcome those obstacles and choose for God...yes..that would sound like free will. But the ability of spiritually dead man is not so described by the God of the Bible. Rather God insists that those who seek him and find him and serve him are those he has quickened, or made alive Ephesians 2:1. That quickening preceeds the faith that is required to serve the Lord and be pleasing to him. Hebrews 11:6, and that faith that is pleasing to him is given by God as a gift. Ephesians 2:8-9

The entire work of salvation belongs altogether to God himself. It is a gift bestowed upon a spiritually dead corpse with no strength or will of his own to escape from his prison of rebellion against God.


Snow, your example of God choosing all Israel and then they were lost as a result of their free will decision has no biblical reality. God repeated again and again that they were a rebellious and stiffnecked people, not because of any free will decision on their part, but because that was the nature of their spiritual condition.

God never chose the entire nation to become saved, He chose them as the physical representation of his kingdom on earth but at any given time, only a very small remnant of them were saved according to Gods choosing. In the same way the entire new testament church was the physical representation of the Kingdom of God on earth, called to send forth the Gospel into all the world, But in the same way probably only a remnant was saved according to Gods good pleasure.

Snow floater, the problem is that people tend to come to the Bible with a preconcieved idea, like free will, and then search through the Bible trying to find passages that seem to support their position while ignoring those passages that deny the possibility of that conclusion.

Free will and predestination cannot be reconciled. The one denies the other. They are antithetical the one to the other, so your own conclusion that you cannot comprehend how the two can mix should give you pause and encourage you to begin again in your search for the answer to this important question. John 1:12-13 Romans 9:11, 15-16, 18 Proverbs 21:1 John 6:37, 44, 63-65

blueheron32

[Mikem]

Snow:
If you have children you will understand this. Suppose you have a child and you give him instruction not to do something foolish because it is risky. Yet you watch him defy you, do the act and suffer the consequences. Did your child not have free will? Could you see the future?
The truth is that you have knowledge that is superiour to your childs. So it is with God, but to a much greater degree

[Daytimeson23]

Mikem although you example is a good one it is not a valid one for this subject. To say one has "free" will is to say that it is free from outside influence however a person before they are saved their will is a slave to sin therefore it is motivated by sin. So it is not "free" to choose good or evil, it can ONLY choose evil. So with your example we would have to say that we are given commandments from God and he knows we are not able to keep them so in order for us to be saved he must remove all that is against and supply all that is capable of obeying.

[Theo]

snowfloater,

It depends on one's definition of free-will. If our wills were not governed by anything at all, we would not be slaves of sin when we are unregenerate, and we would not have a heart for Christ when we are regenerate. Fact is, our wills are governed either by our sinful nature or by the Holy Spirit. They are, by definition, 'wills', that is, not the choice itself, but the mental and spiritual force that drives us to choose what we choose.

The change from self to Christ is a change of that will, which can only be accomplished by God, and this we know must happen for anyone to be saved. Men don't have the power to regenerate themselves or anyone else spiritually. For God to do this thing under no compulsion by or merit of men, it must be by His own sovereign act. And yet, God does not change every man, thus it must be His own choice (election) to whom He will give this gift.

None deserve it. We would all be righteously condemned if it were not for His grace in salvation. It's not as if those who never come to Christ want to do so and are denied. Christ turns none away. But as John 6 tells us, only those the Father draws will come. They are not better people, they are people God has changed at the deepest level, the will.

How this squares with what we see and experience daily is this, we are not compelled to choose sin by any opposing force against our will. We choose it freely. God does not force us to sin. Even Satan and his minions do not force us. The root of the sin is in us and is what drives us to sin. The root of sin even prevents us from doing any truly righteous act, because at some level even an action (or thought or speech) is always to serve self, and not God and grows from pride, or lust, or some other tainted aspect of our soul. This is why we are tempted...because the sin appeals to us, not because it does not appeal to us. The Christian still sins (though a Christian is at war with sin every day) because he is not yet made actually perfect. Our will is to please God now, but we are not completely free of the pull of sin until we are glorified. Our justification is not based on our actual perfection, but on Christ's in whom we have placed our faith.

You said it. Exactly the way I think. I know the issue is hard to digest at times and for some people, but never the less Romans 8 and 9 speak on predestiny.
I had a "talk" with one of my friends about it, and he said that if predestination was true, then what is the point of ministering, because God already knows who He is going to save.
The problem with that argument is that he forgot about the great commision. God may know who He is going to save, but we don't. But we do know that he wants us to "go to the four corners of the earth" and spread the word. It is not our place to question God on who He saves or why He chooses some over the other (Rom. 9:19-21). We are to do what God commands us and nothing more.
And just a side bar, knowing that God has chose to give me mercy and grace even though i didn't deserve it makes me want to rejoice!!

[Mikem]

I don't think defining free will as something free from outside influence is valid. There is nothing that has zero outside influence. People have reasons for doing things.
Non saved people are capable of good, they are just more vulnerable to sin without the strength of the Holy Spirit.

People with the Holy Spirit can and do sin, so it is not an all or nothing proposition. It just makes it much easier to exercise your freewill to overcome sin.

[jeetkunejimi]

Hello Everybody,
Free-will is not choice, read a dictionary please. Free-will is the ability to act without a cause compelling one to do so. Think about it for a few thousand hours as I have. When God said let there be light nothing and no one compelled Him to do so, that's a free-will. Now honestly think can you do ANYTHING at all without an external force from God compelling you to do so. your answer will tell you where you presently stand with God, some of you won't like your answer.

Php 2:13
For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

Now where's your phantom free-will in that scripture.??????????????????? Let me know if you find aloophole.lol.

[germanJoy]

Hello Everybody,
Free-will is not choice, read a dictionary please. Free-will is the ability to act without a cause compelling one to do so. Think about it for a few thousand hours as I have. When God said let there be light nothing and no one compelled Him to do so, that's a free-will. Now honestly think can you do ANYTHING at all without an external force from God compelling you to do so. your answer will tell you where you presently stand with God, some of you won't like your answer.

Php 2:13
For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

Now where's your phantom free-will in that scripture.??????????????????? Let me know if you find aloophole.lol.
Freewill is not a phantom, it is a biblical reality. If there was no freewill, do you think that the people of God were offering a phantom?

Ezra 1:4

4And whosoever remaineth in any place where he sojourneth, let the men of his place help him with silver, and with gold, and with goods, and with beasts, beside the freewill offering for the house of God that is in Jerusalem.

Ezra 7:13-16

13I make a decree, that all they of the people of Israel, and of his priests and Levites, in my realm, which are minded of their own freewill to go up to Jerusalem, go with thee.

14Forasmuch as thou art sent of the king, and of his seven counsellors, to enquire concerning Judah and Jerusalem, according to the law of thy God which is in thine hand;

15And to carry the silver and gold, which the king and his counsellors have freely offered unto the God of Israel, whose habitation is in Jerusalem,

16And all the silver and gold that thou canst find in all the province of Babylon, with the freewill offering of the people, and of the priests, offering willingly for the house of their God which is in Jerusalem:

They were even willingly offering a freewill offering. Nothing can be clearer than the fact that these people had freewill which they willingly offered to God.

Ezra 3:5

5And afterward offered the continual burnt offering, both of the new moons, and of all the set feasts of the LORD that were consecrated, and of every one that willingly offered a freewill offering unto the LORD.

A freewill offering is a valuable treasure one possesses i.e., gold and silver.

Ezra 8:28

28And I said unto them, Ye are holy unto the LORD; the vessels are holy also; and the silver and the gold are a freewill offering unto the LORD God of your fathers.

A freewill offering can also be words spoken coming from the mind.

Psalm 119:108

108Accept, I beseech thee, the freewill offerings of my mouth, O LORD, and teach me thy judgments.

FREEWILL or a will to freely act given by God to men has been existing from the beginning of creation in Genesis until the end in Revelation.

Genesis 2:16

16And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:

Revelation 22:17

17And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

However, keep in mind that God's will is mightier than our own freewill. But yet He chose to grant us a will and made us to rule the earth and all His creation. He listened to men's will e.g., He listened to Moses' arguments resulting to changing His mind to punish His people. He allowed Moses' will/wish to prevail over His plan. But there are times when neither Noah, Daniel, nor Job and not even Moses could convince Him to change His plan. That is why God's will is higher than any man's will. However, one can never deny that one has a freewill.

Unless we offer up to God our will by laying down our freewill before His throne, we are doing our own and not His will. Therefore if we do not recognize that we have a freewill, we are offering nothing and can be ending up doing our own and not His will. :-)

As far as the unbelievers are concerned, I doubt that they have a freewill. Whether they have one or not, it is of no use anyway for it is null and void. Whatever they do with it, they still end up into eternal destruction. Therefore it is just a waste of time to talk about it. :-)

I hope and pray that I will not become your enemy by sharing to you this wonderful biblical verses, words of truth from the King James Version. :) :-)

God bless.
germanJoy

[jeetkunejimi]

Hi Mikem,
I've got 3 kids and I haven't got a clue as to what you are saying,lol. If this hypothetical child really had a free-will then he could freely will himself never to sin again, can he do that Mikem?. This kid only had a free choice but an external circumstance was pending on him not to or to do that risky thing. Got it. No one has a free-will, only God and to illude that man has is blasphemic. And God is not the same as us but to a much greater degree. Please meditate in prayer and thought for a few hours before you make sweeping analogies. God be with you as you ponder the deeper things of the word of God. Amen.

[Bibletalker]

As to the free will offerings and all their offerings what did God finally say?

Isaiah 1:11 - 14

vs 11 - To what purpose [is] the multitude of your sacrifices unto me? saith the LORD: I am full of the burnt offerings of rams, and the fat of fed beasts; and I delight not in the blood of bullocks, or of lambs, or of he goats.

vs 12 - When ye come to appear before me, who hath required this at your hand, to tread my courts?

vs 13 - Bring no more vain oblations; incense is an abomination unto me; the new moons and sabbaths, the calling of assemblies, I cannot away with; [it is] iniquity, even the solemn meeting.

vs 14 - Your new moons and your appointed feasts my soul hateth: they are a trouble unto me; I am weary to bear [them].


Man does not have "free" will even when bringing "freewill" offerings, why?

Jeremiah 13:23 Can the Ethiopian change his skin, or the leopard his spots? [then] may ye also do good, that are accustomed to do evil.

Genesis 6:5
And GOD saw that the wickedness of man [was] great in the earth, and [that] every imagination of the thoughts of his heart [was] only evil continually

So why is it that even "freewill" offerings are free will, because it is tainted with sin. Just as an Ethiopian cannot change his skin, man cannot change his sinful nature and therefore his "will" is motivated only by that sinful nature, therefore his will is not free, thats why Isaiah 64:6 says that all our "righteousnesses" are as filthy rags,,even our "freewill" offerings because they are offered from a sinful heart that man is unable to change. So the fact still remains that man in no way has a free will.

[jeetkunejimi]

Hi germanjoy,
hope you and your family are well. Ok lets get down to some brass tacks. The scriptures that you have offered in your defence of free-moral agency (free-will) are all from the Old Testament of which there are 17 entries in the 1611 KJV. But when we check the NKJV there is suddenly a new entry at (Amos 4:5). In the 1611 it only says free offering, not free-will. Umm........I wonder if those dogey old scribes sliped up in there deciet. Now how accurate is the KJV the stilwart of Christendom, hey and I you'st to read it dogmatically once too just like many other's. The answer is no more accurate than most translations. Now to my point germanboy. The word free-will in these scriptures and in the others such as in Leviticus are not in the origional greek or Hebrew Septuagint that I can see. Offered freely is. The offerings were offered up freely. Now that is a choice. We do have a will, of course we do, but is it free? Answer no God influences everyone of us millions of times a day.
You tell this sites members to keep in mind that Gods will is mightier than are own free-will, listen if free-will existed in man how could God's be mightier? Your phantom free-will theory enjoyed by millions of deluded people Christians and non-Christians alike would make you co-equals with God.
Now until you realise this truth you will remain deluded. Moses never changed God's mind God's not an idiot His plan is fool, proof iron clad, sown up tightly, perfect. God moved Moses to pray what he prayed as he does all of us and God was always going to do exactly what he was going to do he just made it look that way to Moses for a reason. Do you think Pharoah had much free-will? Do you think Paul the Christian persecutor had much free-will on the road to Demascus? Do you think Judas had much free-will when Jesus told him to go and do what he must? Wouldn't you of at least thought one of the other eleven surviving disciples could have not denied Jesus before the cockril crowed, Peter was so sure he would'nt, how wrong could he have been, he learn't a harsh leson that fatful day about phantom free-will didn't he germanboy? Man you've got Moses' wishes able to overide those of God Almighty's. Well, He's not so aalmighty now then is he according to you my friend.
You are close when you say we must lay down our free-will before His throne, just that it's a deluded phantom free-will that he will bring us to see and when we see it for what it is we will begin to love God properly and follow His son into spiritual maturity dying to self.
Lastly you say that unbelievers in Christ you doubt have a free-will, well I can agree with you on that one.Lol. As i believe no one at all has one. The love you show for the presently lost is wonderful isn't it, not. They don't matter as far as your concerned because there off regardless to eternal destruction, burning in the flesh wrything in agony, drinking molten hot larva with no release or relief with no purpose to it other than the god that dwells in your heart presently, likes meaningless torture. The God I love and worship(Jehovah Jireh) doesn't torture His children He corrects them and gives them life. And our Lord Jesus never thinks it's just a waste of time to bother with the lost He came to save the lost and He's going to do just that, Hallelujah!!!!!!!
You will not be my enemy for helping me sharpen the both of use, let iron sharpen iron my friend. But this is my earnest plea to you as a child of christ, please take a long deep thoughtful time to think about what you believe on this subject, please also think about what I have said not that I am anybody special for i am no more or less than anyone else in God's eyes. No one will make lite of you if you have the humility to change, no one of any substance anyway. I believed much as you do once mate, but God shook me up, I pray he shakes you up soon too, I say this to you in love, and may the love that never fails prove itself yet again in your heart. Love and peace germanboy, love and peace be upon you.

[jeetkunejimi]

Hi everybody,
this is just for the record it's the definiton of freewill.

Main Entry: free will
Function: noun
1 : voluntary choice or decision <I do this of my own free will>
2 : freedom of humans to make choices that are not determined by prior causes or by divine intervention.

Now then, even Webster's is in as much of a twizz with the meaning of freewill as Strong's is about the word Aion meaning eternity(#165 in his dictionary) when it actually means an age. Freewill is not a volutary decision that men can make only God has a free will that is a will that can freely do what it likes without any caused, circumstancial influence motivating one to take that decision. i.e; "Let there be light".
Now everybody, can anyone of us decide to do something, anything, without an external influence or cause or circumstance bringing them to do it? And as God is all first cause and we are the effect then He must be in control, full control. I know that is rather humbling to the carnal mind which is at war with God continually notheless it's a biblical God inspired fact, and you can take that to the bank. God is soverign over all His creation.
Anyone who believes in freewill has not yet bowed the knee to God's soverign power and if they die in that state of mind they will go to the lake of fire to learn to repent of it unfortunately missing the millenial reign of Christ on earth, before they can enter heaven with the elect chosen.
You do not save yourself from sin that is an obsurdity and contradiction, Jesus does. If you could save yourself why bother with Jesus at all? He draws all us to Him in the Greek the word is drags(John 12:32), because we won't come freely. That's the way God does it and it dosen't make sense to carnal minded men. I pray for all on this site to seriously meditate on this idol of the heart and cast it out in the name of Jesus and replace it with the soveringity of Almighty God who knows the begining from the end, I mean He really,really,does know. God's will be done on earth as it is in heaven, amen.
Below are some scriptures that you may wan't to( that is if God causes you to at this time in His plan) spend some hours of contemplation over in prayer. The parenthasis is mine for effect. Happy hunting.

"Where is the wise? Where is the Scribe? Where is the disputer [debater] of this world? Has not God made foolish [Gk: ‘stupid’] the wisdom of this world?" (I Cor. 1:20).

"…it is God [not man] which works in you BOTH TO WILL [God causes us ‘to will’] and TO DO [God causes us ‘to do’] of His good pleasure" to bring about His intentions (Phil. 2:13).

"Go to now, ye that say, Today or tomorrow we will go into such a city, and continue there a year, and buy and sell, and get gain: Whereas ye know not what shall be on the morrow. For what is your life? It is even a vapor, which appears for a little time, and then vanishes away. For that ye ought to say, if the Lord will, we shall live, and do this, or that" (James 4:13-15).

(Rom 9:16)
"So then it is not of him that wills, nor of him that runs, but OF GOD that shows mercy"

Exodus 9:12
"And the Lord hardened the heart of Pharaoh and he hearkened not unto them, as the Lord had spoken unto Moses"

(Rom 9:19).
"You will say then unto me, Why does He [God] yet find fault? For who has resisted His will [Greek: boulema—‘resolve, purpose, a deliberate intention’]?"


"Nay but, O man, WHO ARE YOU that replies against God? Shall the thing formed [that’s us] say to Him that formed it, [that’s GOD] Why have You made me thus? Has not the Potter [GOD] power over the clay [man], of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?" (Rom. 9:20-21).

"For God has concluded them all [both the Israelites and the Gentiles—see verses 25-31] in unbelief, that He might have mercy upon ALL. O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God? How unsearchable are His judgments, and His ways past finding out! For who has known the mind of the Lord? Or who has been His counselor? Or who has first given to Him, and it shall be recompensed unto him again? For of Him, and through Him, and to Him, are all things: to whom be glory for ever. Amen" (Rom. 11:32-36).

"And Jesus said unto them, All ye shall be offended because of me this night, but then again, maybe not all of you will be offended, seeing that all of you have a free will to will against My pronouncement maybe a couple of you will prove me wrong…." (Matt 26:31)

Sorry guys the last one I tampered with a little, you did know that, didn't you??????????????????????lol.

[jeetkunejimi]

Hi Bibletalker,
you truely live up to your name thanks for having the eyes to see the ears to hear and the mind to comprehend that free-will is a phantom of mans vivid and very dark imagination.

[FreeWill]

Hello Everybody,
Free-will is not choice, read a dictionary please.
I have and here it what it says: "voluntary, freely given or done, the freedom of decision or choice". So, it IS a choice. You may want to read your dictionary a little more closely.

Free-will is the ability to act without a cause compelling one to do so.
No, free will is the freedom to believe what you want to believe. And the freedom to change your mind from time to time, as all humans demonstrate quite clearly.

Think about it for a few thousand hours as I have.
The hours you put into thinking about it have a lot less weight than what the Scripture says.

When God said let there be light nothing and no one compelled Him to do so, that's a free-will. Now honestly think can you do ANYTHING at all without an external force from God compelling you to do so. your answer will tell you where you presently stand with God, some of you won't like your answer.
You probably won't like my answer, but I do. Free will isn't about what we DO, bur rather what we think. We are free to think anything we want to. The Bible challenges us to think how God thinks. You are free to do so, and free to reject what the Bible says.

Php 2:13
For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.
When we believe and obey what God tells us, His will IS done in our lives.

Now where's your phantom free-will in that scripture.?
That verse isn't about free will.

[germanJoy]

The scriptures that you have offered in your defence of free-moral agency (free-will) are all from the Old Testament of which there are 17 entries in the 1611 KJV. But when we check the NKJV there is suddenly a new entry at (Amos 4:5). In the 1611 it only says free offering, not free-will. Umm........I wonder if those dogey old scribes sliped up in there deciet. Now how accurate is the KJV the stilwart of Christendom, hey and I you'st to read it dogmatically once too just like many other's.
You cannot ignore the fact that the King James Version recognizes the difference between a freewill offering and a free offering.

King James Version verses on free offerings:
Amos 4:5
5And offer a sacrifice of thanksgiving with leaven, and proclaim and publish the free offerings: for this liketh you, O ye children of Israel, saith the Lord GOD.

Exodus 36:3
3And they received of Moses all the offering, which the children of Israel had brought for the work of the service of the sanctuary, to make it withal. And they brought yet unto him free offerings every morning.

I have already given several KJV verses on freewill offerings which you yourself have confirmed to be consisting of 17 entries. No there were no dogey old scribes of KJV or NASB who deceitfully translated the word freewill offerings. But there are stubborn-minded people today who vehemently deny the existence of some biblical verses once they encounter contradictions to their established traditional beliefs. Like many others, gain a heart of wisdom by searching diligently the whole scripture and by accepting everything written therein.

The word free-will in these scriptures and in the others such as in Leviticus are not in the origional greek or Hebrew Septuagint that I can see.
Unless you are a Scholar who is literate on the original Greek and Hebrew Septuagint, you have no right to claim that you can or cannot see it. However, many scholars today have actually see and translated it. What kind of scholar are you that made your claims different from them?

The freewill offering is first found in connection with the construction of the Tent of Meeting:

Shemot (Exodus) 35:29 - 36:3 All the Israelite men and women who were willing brought to HaShem freewill offerings for all the work HaShem through Moses had commanded them to do....

"Freewill" is defined by Strongs as:

5071 nedabah, ned-aw-baw'; from 5068; prop. (abstr.) spontaneity, or (adj.) spontaneous; also (concr.) a spontaneous or (by infer., in plur.) abundant gift:-free (-will) offering, freely, plentiful, voluntary (- ily, offering), willing (-ly, offering).

5068 nadab, naw-dab'; a prim. root; to impel; hence to volunteer (as a soldier), to present spontaneously:-offer freely, be (give, make, offer self) willing (-ly).

Vayikra (Leviticus) 7:16-18

The `freewill' offering is eaten by the one who brings it on the first or the second day. It was not to be eaten on the third day, because it is impure.

Vayikra (Leviticus) 22:17-25

A `freewill' offering could be a burnt offering.

It must be a MALE from the cattle, the sheep, or the goats.

A stunted or a deformed animal could be offered as a freewill offering.

Bamidbar (Numbers) 15:1-16

The one who brings a `freewill' offering must also bring the required grain offering with oil and wine.

Devarim (Deuteronomy) 12:1-14

You tell this sites members to keep in mind that Gods will is mightier than are own free-will, listen if free-will existed in man how could God's be mightier? Your phantom free-will theory enjoyed by millions of deluded people Christians and non-Christians alike would make you co-equals with God.
The problem lies on your misunderstanding of our different understanding of freewill. Our freewill is limited to God's sovereign will, the point where the freedom of our will ceases. Believing on freewill does not make us co-equal with God but co-rulers, sons and daughters, children who are made in His own image and likeness. Apparently, the result of not believing on freewill could make ourselves not believing (having no faith) to be His co-rulers, His children made in His own image and likeness.

Now until you realise this truth you will remain deluded. Moses never changed God's mind God's not an idiot
Read your bible well and find out yourself what had happened.

Numbers 14:11-20
11And the LORD said unto Moses, How long will this people provoke me? and how long will it be ere they believe me, for all the signs which I have shewed among them?

12 I will smite them with the pestilence, and disinherit them, and will make of thee a greater nation and mightier than they.

13And Moses said unto the LORD, Then the Egyptians shall hear it, (for thou broughtest up this people in thy might from among them


17And now, I beseech thee, let the power of my lord be great, according as thou hast spoken, saying,


19Pardon, I beseech thee, the iniquity of this people according unto the greatness of thy mercy, and as thou hast forgiven this people, from Egypt even until now.

20And the LORD said, I have pardoned according to thy word:

First God said He will punish His people. Moses interevened, God listened and later pardoned them according to the word of Moses and no longer according to what He had said. If you refuse to accept this truth, you have to change the whole events of Numbers 14.

Do you think Pharoah had much free-will? Do you think Paul the Christian persecutor had much free-will on the road to Demascus?
Have I not said that I doubt whether unbelievers have freewill?

Do you think Judas had much free-will when Jesus told him to go and do what he must?
Was Judas considered a believer?

Wouldn't you of at least thought one of the other eleven surviving disciples could have not denied Jesus before the cockril crowed, Peter was so sure he would'nt, how wrong could he have been, he learn't a harsh leson that fatful day about phantom free-will didn't he germanboy? Man you've got Moses' wishes able to overide those of God Almighty's. Well, He's not so aalmighty now then is he according to you my friend.
Excuse me but you are the one by your own statement making it appear that God made Peter deny Him. I object on that proposition because of the fact that Jesus prayed earnestly for Peter. If God wanted Peter to deny Him, why would Jesus earnestly pray for Peter in the first place? That is senseless!

You are close when you say we must lay down our free-will before His throne, just that it's a deluded phantom free-will that he will bring us to see and when we see it for what it is we will begin to love God properly and follow His son into spiritual maturity dying to self.
How can you love God properly if you are forced? How can you die to self if you have no choice? I have not understood this myself until my daughter one day received a punishment from me (T.V watching) for a wrong-doing. She had to follow my rule to be able to watch T.V. but of course she had to prove herself first. She did without hesitation follow my rule. I reacted by saying this: "You really would do everything to watch T.V." To my surprise, her answer was: "No Mama, I would stiill obey even if I am not allowed to watch T.V." That is what I call to love someone properly. It is a free decision not forced by anything or anyone.

You will not be my enemy for helping me sharpen the both of use, let iron sharpen iron my friend. But this is my earnest plea to you as a child of christ, please take a long deep thoughtful time to think about what you believe on this subject, please also think about what I have said not that I am anybody special for i am no more or less than anyone else in God's eyes. No one will make lite of you if you have the humility to change, no one of any substance anyway. I believed much as you do once mate, but God shook me up, I pray he shakes you up soon too, I say this to you in love, and may the love that never fails prove itself yet again in your heart. Love and peace germanboy, love and peace be upon you.
I can only be convinced by what God had all said in the bible. Without Scriptures, you could never change my mind.:-) Present to me Scriptures that says freewill is a phantom, and I will believe you. Meanwhile, believe the Scriptures I have given you on freewill offerings and the event where God no longer disinherited His people because of what Moses had said.

We are admonished to do things willingly, out of our own will.

Philemon 1:14
14But without thy mind would I do nothing; that thy benefit should not be as it were of necessity, but willingly.

May God's grace and peace be upon you, too.
germanJoy

[godslove]

hi germanjoy, yes we who belong to God are free from the slavery of sin.
but now we are servants to righteousness.
it is a question of whos child we are. i believe that we will act accordingly.
ie: free to act within the limits of our nature. i think that there is some misunderstanding what free will actually is.
...God bless.

John 8:34 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.
35 And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: but the Son abideth ever.
36 If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.
37 I know that ye are Abraham’s seed; but ye seek to kill me, because my word hath no place in you.
38 ¶ I speak that which I have seen with my Father: and ye do that which ye have seen with your father.
39 They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham’s children, ye would do the works of Abraham.
40 But now ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the truth, which I have heard of God: this did not Abraham.
41 Ye do the deeds of your father. Then said they to him, We be not born of fornication; we have one Father, even God.
42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.
43 Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.
44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
45 And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not.
46 ¶ Which of you convinceth me of sin? And if I say the truth, why do ye not believe me?
47 He that is of God heareth God’s words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.

Romans 6:17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.


miriram webster col dictionary

Main Entry free will
Function noun
Date:13th century

1 : voluntary choice or decision *I do this of my own free will*

2 : freedom of humans to make choices that are not determined by prior causes or by divine intervention

God bless.

[godslove]

hi jeet,
there is no reason for insults. you know that it's german joy, not german boy.

you wrote
Now how accurate is the KJV the stilwart of Christendom, hey and I you'st to read it dogmatically once too just like many other's. The answer is no more accurate than most translations.

answer, do you have any facts to back this up? any that you would like to share?

you wrote,
Now to my point germanboy. The word free-will in these scriptures and in the others such as in Leviticus are not in the origional greek or Hebrew Septuagint that I can see. Offered freely is. The offerings were offered up freely. Now that is a choice. We do have a will, of course we do, but is it free?

answer,
i don't know what originals you are talking about but here are the Scriptures.

Exodus 35:29 The children of Israel brought a willing offering <05071> unto the LORD, every man and woman, whose heart made them willing to bring for all manner of work, which the LORD had commanded to be made by the hand of Moses.
Exodus 36:3 And they received of Moses all the offering, which the children of Israel had brought for the work of the service of the sanctuary, to make it withal. And they brought yet unto him free offerings <05071> every morning.
Leviticus 7:16 But if the sacrifice of his offering be a vow, or a voluntary offering <05071>, it shall be eaten the same day that he offereth his sacrifice: and on the morrow also the remainder of it shall be eaten:
Leviticus 22:18 Speak unto Aaron, and to his sons, and unto all the children of Israel, and say unto them, Whatsoever he be of the house of Israel, or of the strangers in Israel, that will offer his oblation for all his vows, and for all his freewill offerings <05071>, which they will offer unto the LORD for a burnt offering;
Leviticus 22:21 And whosoever offereth a sacrifice of peace offerings unto the LORD to accomplish his vow, or a freewill offering <05071> in beeves or sheep, it shall be perfect to be accepted; there shall be no blemish therein.
Leviticus 22:23 Either a bullock or a lamb that hath any thing superfluous or lacking in his parts, that mayest thou offer for a freewill offering <05071>; but for a vow it shall not be accepted.
Leviticus 23:38 Beside the sabbaths of the LORD, and beside your gifts, and beside all your vows, and beside all your freewill offerings <05071>, which ye give unto the LORD.
Numbers 15:3 And will make an offering by fire unto the LORD, a burnt offering, or a sacrifice in performing a vow, or in a freewill offering <05071>, or in your solemn feasts, to make a sweet savour unto the LORD, of the herd, or of the flock:
Numbers 29:39 These things ye shall do unto the LORD in your set feasts, beside your vows, and your freewill offerings <05071>, for your burnt offerings, and for your meat offerings, and for your drink offerings, and for your peace offerings.
Deuteronomy 12:6 And thither ye shall bring your burnt offerings, and your sacrifices, and your tithes, and heave offerings of your hand, and your vows, and your freewill offerings <05071>, and the firstlings of your herds and of your flocks:
Deuteronomy 12:17 Thou mayest not eat within thy gates the tithe of thy corn, or of thy wine, or of thy oil, or the firstlings of thy herds or of thy flock, nor any of thy vows which thou vowest, nor thy freewill offerings <05071>, or heave offering of thine hand:
Deuteronomy 16:10 And thou shalt keep the feast of weeks unto the LORD thy God with a tribute of a freewill offering <05071> of thine hand, which thou shalt give unto the LORD thy God, according as the LORD thy God hath blessed thee:
Deuteronomy 23:23 That which is gone out of thy lips thou shalt keep and perform; even a freewill offering <05071>, according as thou hast vowed unto the LORD thy God, which thou hast promised with thy mouth.
2 Chronicles 31:14 And Kore the son of Imnah the Levite, the porter toward the east, was over the freewill offerings <05071> of God, to distribute the oblations of the LORD, and the most holy things.
2 Chronicles 35:8 And his princes gave willingly <05071> unto the people, to the priests, and to the Levites: Hilkiah and Zechariah and Jehiel, rulers of the house of God, gave unto the priests for the passover offerings two thousand and six hundred small cattle, and three hundred oxen.
Ezra 1:4 And whosoever remaineth in any place where he sojourneth, let the men of his place help him with silver, and with gold, and with goods, and with beasts, beside the freewill offering <05071> for the house of God that is in Jerusalem.
Ezra 3:5 And afterward offered the continual burnt offering, both of the new moons, and of all the set feasts of the LORD that were consecrated, and of every one that willingly offered a freewill offering <05071> unto the LORD.
Ezra 8:28 And I said unto them, Ye are holy unto the LORD; the vessels are holy also; and the silver and the gold are a freewill offering <05071> unto the LORD God of your fathers.
Psalms 54:6 I will freely <05071> sacrifice unto thee: I will praise thy name, O LORD; for it is good.
Psalms 68:9 Thou, O God, didst send a plentiful <05071> rain, whereby thou didst confirm thine inheritance, when it was weary.
Psalms 110:3 Thy people shall be willing <05071> in the day of thy power, in the beauties of holiness from the womb of the morning: thou hast the dew of thy youth.
Psalms 119:108 Accept, I beseech thee, the freewill offerings <05071> of my mouth, O LORD, and teach me thy judgments.
Ezekiel 46:12 Now when the prince shall prepare a voluntary <05071> burnt offering or peace offerings voluntarily <05071> unto the LORD, one shall then open him the gate that looketh toward the east, and he shall prepare his burnt offering and his peace offerings, as he did on the sabbath day: then he shall go forth; and after his going forth one shall shut the gate.
Hosea 14:4 I will heal their backsliding, I will love them freely <05071>: for mine anger is turned away from him.
Amos 4:5 And offer a sacrifice of thanksgiving with leaven, and proclaim and publish the free offerings <05071>: for this liketh you, O ye children of Israel, saith the Lord GOD.

05071. hbdn n@dabah ned-aw-baw’; from 05068; properly (abstractly) spontaneity, or (adjectively) spontaneous; also (concretely) a spontaneous or (by inference, in plural) abundant gift:— free(-will) offering, freely, plentiful, voluntary(-ily, offering), willing(-ly), offering).

now here is the problem, what is websters original definition of this word.

Freewill
FREEWILL', n.
1. The power of directing our own actions without restraint by necessity or fate.
2. Voluntariness; spontaneousness.

i could agree that the KJV could be updated if the Lord wills. but is the Bible really written so that sinful man can understand it?

2 Peter 3:15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;
16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

bottom line is,
our will or our desires are in no way free.
if someone is a sinner then his disires are to sin.
when someone becomes born again, he would then desire to be with God.
God will have mercy on whom He will have mercy. but that in no way indicates that there is universal salvation.
.. God bless.

[joyful]

Just a few more scriptures and thoughts about The Elect--God's Chosen People:

To the Christians dispersed among the nations Peter writes: "But you are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, His own special people, that you may proclaim the praises of Him who called you out of darkness into His marvelous light; who once were not a people but are now the people of God, who had not obtained mercy but now have obtained mercy" (1 Peter 2:9, 10).

It's a wonderful privilege to be God's chosen people. "Blessed is the nation whose God is the Lord, and the people whom He has chosen as His own inheritance" (Psalm 33:12). On the last day, only God's elect will be saved: "And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other" (Matthew 24:31; Mark 13:27).

The concept of God's chosen people is first found in the Old Testament. God chose Israel as His special people. "And because He loved your fathers, therefore He chose their descendants after them; and He brought you out of Egypt with His Presence, with His mighty power" (Deuteronomy 4:37). "For you are a holy people to the Lord your God; the Lord your God has chosen you to be a people for Himself, a special treasure above all the peoples on the face of the earth" (Deuteronomy 7:6; 14:2).

"But you, Israel, are my servant, Jacob, whom I have chosen, the descendants of Abraham my friend. You whom I have taken from the ends of the earth and called from its farthest regions and said to you, 'You are my servant, I have chosen you and have not cast you away; fear not, for I am with you; be not dismayed, for I am your God. I will strengthen you, yes, I will help you, I will uphold you with my righteous right hand'" (Isaiah 41:8-11).

Who are God's chosen people now? Jesus said: "Many are called, but few are chosen" (Matthew 22:14; 20:16).

Now that the promised Messiah has come, God's chosen people are they who accept Him as Lord and Savior: "For Moses truly said to the fathers, 'The Lord your God will raise up for you a Prophet like me from your brethren. Him you shall hear in all things, whatever He says to you. And it shall come to pass that every soul who will not hear that Prophet shall be utterly destroyed from among the people'" (Acts 3:22, 23). "Even so then, at this present time there is a remnant according to the election of grace. And if by grace, then it is no longer of works of the Law; otherwise grace is no longer grace. But if it is of works, it is no longer grace; otherwise work is no longer work. What then? Israel has not obtained what it seeks; but the elect have obtained it, and the rest were hardened" (Romans 11:5-7).

The election is no longer based on physical lineage, but on one's relationship with the Messiah: "He is Lord of lords and King of kings; and those who are with Him are called, chosen, and faithful" (Revelation 17:14).

The election of physical Israel was but a sign of a higher spiritual election on the basis, not of the lineage of Abraham, but of the faith of Abraham. This was God's plan even before the creation of the world. "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He has made us accepted in the Beloved" (Ephesians 1:3-6).

As Peter says in the salutation of his first letter, this election in Christ is based on the foreknowledge of God: "Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the pilgrims of the dispersion in Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, in sanctification of the Spirit, for obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace to you and peace be multiplied" (1 Peter 1:1, 2).

Paul explains this more fully in his letter to the Romans. "And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose. For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified. What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who can be against us? He who did not spare His own Son, but delivered Him up for us all, how shall He not with Him also freely give us all things? Who shall bring a charge against God's elect? It is God who justifies. Who is he who condemns? It is Christ who died, and furthermore is also risen, who is even at the right hand of God, who also makes intercession for us" (Romans 8:28-34).

"Therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, put on tender mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering; bearing with one another, and forgiving one another, if anyone has a complaint against another; even as Christ forgave you, so you also must do" (Colossians 3:12,13).

This election before the foundation of the world was in Christ, which means that we are part of God's chosen people only if we are in Christ and remain in Him. Peter tells us how we can make our calling and election sure: "Grace and peace be multiplied to you in the knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord, as His divine power has given to us all things that pertain to life and godliness, through the knowledge of Him who called us by glory and virtue, by which have been given to us exceedingly great and precious promises, that through these you may be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust. But also for this very reason, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue, to virtue knowledge, to knowledge self-control, to self-control perseverance, to perseverance godliness, to godliness brotherly kindness, and to brotherly kindness love. For if these things are yours and abound, you will be neither barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. For he who lacks these things is shortsighted, even to blindness, and has forgotten that he was purged from his old sins. Therefore, brethren, be even more diligent to make your calling and election sure, for if you do these things you will never stumble; for so an entrance will be supplied to you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ" (2 Peter 1:2-11).

This is indeed a subject that require much prayful study. May we all be diligent in so doing.

[jeetkunejimi]

Hello all who ahve ears to hear,
the 1611 KJV (Authorised version) is an erroneous translation. The KKJ for a start originally had the 14 books of the Apocrypha in it inbetween the OT & the NT, that's 14 whole entire books that they said were cannon(inspired of God). So where are they now?
The first revision (heck what for if it is so perfect in the first place) in 1885 omitted the made up word Lucifer(that's correct made up by Jerome in 445 A.D.). They substituted it with what should have been there in the first place the words, O DAYSTAR. Ummm........
Now in Jonah 2:2 the word hell has been changed to the word sheol, hell is a made up pagan doctrine of eternal punishment and sheol is the unconscious waiting place of all who die spoken of by scripture.

The King James Version (Authorized)

Jonah 2
2:2
And said, I cried by reason of mine affliction unto the LORD, and he heard me; out of the belly of hell cried I, and thou heardest my voice.

The New King James Version

Jonah 2
2:2
And he said: "I cried out to the Lord because of my affliction, And He answered me. "Out of the belly of Sheol I cried, And You heard my voice.

Well there's just a couple for you to muse over if you want more ask of me and I'll give you more there are literally thousands my friend. The KJV is a translation that is eveolving.Lol. Try getting yourself and EMPHATIC DIAGLOTT or a Rotherham's emphasized bible if you want a far more accurate translation from the original known Greek manuscripts.

[godslove]

hi jeet, i don't care about the new kjv. if something is not translated correctly then provide the evidence.
if you are moaning about the word hell. it's called translating it into the language of the people.

07585. lwav sh@’owl sheh-ole’; or lav sh@ol sheh-ole’; from 07592; Hades or the world of the dead (as if a subterranean retreat), including its accessories and inmates:— grave, hell, pit.

that still doesn't prove universal salvation.

try to prove universal salvation. i have brought up Scriptures on this subject and you don't reply. could it be that you have no evidence for believing such a thing? ...God bless.

[godslove]

oh and by the way, in the physical word it was considered venus the morning star. the great imitator. get the connection? ...God bless.

Lu·ci·fer

n. 1. The archangel cast from heaven for leading the revolt of the angels; Satan.
2. The planet Venus in its appearance as the morning star.
3. lucifer A friction match.

from
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/Lucifer