Where in the bible does it say ...

[romans 8:17]

Where in the bible does it say women can't be deacons? They don't allow women to be deacons at my chruch... but in Romans paul talk about Phoebe who was a deaconess. And does it say where they can't be pastors.. Nypha and Pricilla were pastors. I am confused because I though God would use us all the same but some people thnk God choses a particular role to limit women ? is this true ... why? regerences please.

[Mikem]

Here are some scriptures... But Honestly I am not qualified by any stretch to interpet them. This is something I would have to pray about and ask God. There are people on this site that can help with this... but not me.. I just looked these verses up for you

1Co 14:34 -
Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law.

Timothy 2:9-15
9 In like manner also, that women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with shamefacedness and sobriety; not with broided hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly array; 10 But (which becometh women professing godliness) with good works. 11 Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. 12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. 13 For Adam was first formed, then Eve. 14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression. 15 Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety.

[Mikem]

You know after I wrote this I thought a little more. It made me wonder why Christ selected 12 men as apostles. It was not 6 men 6 women, not even 11/1. All men.
I'm sure there are answers.. but I really haven't given this much consideration.(probably because I am a man)
I know that I have learned great things from female Bible teachers, and I hope nothing was wrong with that now that you bring it up.
Certainly women are capable. It can't be that.
But to deny what is written, also denies the Bible is the unerring Word of God.

I'm sorry if I sound confused.. but your question got me thinking.... thanks (woman!) Hmmm.. isn't that a teachers purpose.. to make you think?

It was obviously Christs will that His apostles be men. So it also was the Fathers will, because Christ does the fathers will. But what that says about present day pastors, I'm not sure.
If a women shares the Gospel with someone, and the person says the sinners prayer, is he saved? I think he is!

THis is a great question!

[romans 8:17]

Thankyou .. I was wondering you no those passages i think they were directed to certain chruches where the women were following false teachers. I hope the people i have helped saved are saved! I know he had 12 dicples that were men but he had women followers and there is a women apostle mentioned in the bible... but it is confusing... i wish i knew

[casmithjr]

Women did play a big part in the growing Christian religion. First imagine your self back in that time. Women were not treated equal as mean. Sometimes regarded as property or being used for bargaining. Woman would have had a difficult time of trying to convince Jewish men of Christ. If you look at history, once the religion was spreading among the gentiles, it was the woman how would run the gatherings (remember Christians would have been killed by other Jews for spreading the word). It was a husband and wife team. The man was responsible for running the business (making the money) and the wife was responsible for the religious affairs. Even Paul anointed woman to run the religious affairs. In later centuries, one the Christian faith was legalized, the Church down played the woman’s role and pushed that the men should be the leader, going with the way things were in the relation between men and woman.

[Potters House]

God does not use us all the same. He sets the members in the body as it pleases Him. 1 Cor 12:18 & 29. 1Tim, Chapter 3 tells us what the requirements are for bishops and deacons. Always male. 1 Tim 2:12 Pauls tells us "But Isuffer not a woman to teach." Perhaps this is Pauls opinion, but what he says in the rest of the sentence gives us our answer. It is out of order for a woman to take authority over her husband. He is the head of the woman, as Christ is head of the church. 1 Cor 11:3. Everything in Gods kingdom will be done decently and in order. Can the bride usurp authority over Christ? I think not.
This does not mean women are not to teach. It is very plain that the elders shall teach the younger Titus 2:3-4. It is the Jezebel spirit that is the issue here.
I cannot find any reference to Priscilla, or anyone else for that matter, being a pastor. In fact , the word pastor only shows up once in the entire new testament. Eph 4:11. The role of pastor is never described as a functioning gift.

[Tennessee Elijah]

Adam was made by God out of the elements (dirt) of this planet; Eve was made by God out of a rib from Adam; Eve sinned and Adam sinned, causing them to be separated from God's presence in the Garden of Eden. Apparently, from the very beginning of the human family, the idea of "male or "female" has more to do with obedience to the Creator and procreation than whether or not a woman can be a "deacon" in a manmade organization. As we know from reading the Bible, God loves all of us equally -- and He wants us to love our neighbors like we love ourselves. "Servitude" by any man or woman unto "the least of these" -- in any form -- is a good thing.

"And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams: And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy..." Acts 2:17&18

[snowfloater]

hey all if you go to archives and look up Woman speaking in church from 1 may 2005 by Onejoe you will find a great debate on this subject. Its lengthy but well worth the time and gives lots of great scripture to study and even methods of study on scripture. Snowfloater

[Avecrien]

There is a difference, though, between being a prophet or prophesying and being the head of a church.
The church structure has changed much since the first believers were around. You must find how what is said about what men shoudl do and what women should do applies to what we have now, or if what you're in now needs a new structure to accommodate the bible and example of those early churches.

[germanJoy]

This topic should have an exclusive thread with a fitting title because this can be very lengthy. It was the longest and got the highest number of posts (if I remember it right) in the old chat board. Anyway, guys and gals, do you know that there was a female apostle and her name is Junias? :-) The leaders of the church are not only pastors but also prophets, teachers, apostles, etc.

[Potters House]

Hello German Joy, I read verse ( Rom 16:7 )you refer to in the KJV and Greek. It does not say Junias was an apostle. What version are you reading?

[germanJoy]

Hello German Joy, I read verse ( Rom 16:7 )you refer to in the KJV and Greek. It does not say Junias was an apostle. What version are you reading?
Hi Potters House, Here's what my bible says (New American Standard Bible): "Greet Andronicus and Junias, my kinsmen, and my fellow prisoners, who are OUTSTANDING AMONG THE APOSTLES, who also were in Christ before me." Try to study who Junias is and you will find out that she is a woman.

[Potters House]

Hello GermanJoy. This is what happens when there are over 400 different versions of the Bible out there. The KJV and Greek says " who are of 'note' among the apostles" . Hard to tell exactly what Paul was referring to. It could be two different things. They were apostles themselves, or they were well known among the apostles at that time.
That is the only place in the Bible that refers to Junia. It does not tell us if this is a male or female. Where did you get info this is a woman. Would like to know. Thanks!

[germanJoy]

Hello GermanJoy. This is what happens when there are over 400 different versions of the Bible out there. The KJV and Greek says " who are of 'note' among the apostles" . Hard to tell exactly what Paul was referring to. It could be two different things. They were apostles themselves, or they were well known among the apostles at that time.
That is the only place in the Bible that refers to Junia. It does not tell us if this is a male or female. Where did you get info this is a woman. Would like to know. Thanks!
Correct! having 400 different versions of the Bible makes it almost impossible to know what really is the 100% accurate one/s. But praise God we don't depend on the bible versions but on the Holy Spirit of God for it is written that our salvation is ALONE in Christ Jesus and not on our personal bibles. :) After all, we will not go to heaven just because we use KJV Bibles.. if so I myself will be disqualified. :-)

KJV or NASB, both claim that Junia or Junias is an apostle (KJV, a noted one...NASB an outstanding one) and both claim that Junia/s was in Christ before Paul. There are obviously opposing views as to the gender of Junia/s by the scholars themselves. To take it up here will incur a huge amount of time which I presently cannot afford. To the best of Dr. Leonard Swidler's knowledge, there was no commentary on the particular issue until Aegidus of Rome (1245-1316) took the name Junia/s as masculine. So until the late 13th century, historical references all agreed that Junia was female, as did Origen of Alexandria (C 185-253), John Crysostrom (337-497), Jerome (340-419), etc. The change took place in 1298 during the reign of Pope Boniface VIII, a contemporary of Aegidus of Rome who was accused of infidelity, heresy, gross and unnatural immorality, adultery, magic, etc.

For more references, go to www.churchofgoddfw.com/monthly/junia.html.

If one has to strictly follow the pattern of how Jesus chose His 12 Apostles, then only the jews will be qualified. No gentile then and now can assume the office of apostleship which obviously is not the case.

We all know that God is no respecter of person, He calls male or female alike. Jesus Himself never restricted any woman to any ministry. Why would we then? Paul himself had commended many female co-workers (who even risked their own lives for the gospel) in Christ.

On one hand, there was an instruction of women being silent in church and not to teach. On the other hand, there were indications that Paul instructed women to teach, commended women in their service to God, and there was even a woman speaking in the temple. Not only that, prophesies were spoken that there will be a HOST OF WOMEN PROCLAIMING the Word (I'll give you the scripture next time, need to look it up).

[blueheron32]

Potter...

The word "Pastor" only occurs once in the new testament...but the word that is translated pastor occurs about twenty times..it is number 4166 in the strongs concordance and is normally translated shepherd or shepherds..which can give you some additional insight to the word as God uses it...and no, of course you will find no woman being a pastor or leader of a congregation...the first century church, and the church for the next 1800 years understood that quite clearly....and correctly...:-)

blueheron32

[Potters House]

Hello BlueHeron, You are correct the word shepherd ( Strongs conc# 4166) is translated from the word pastor. But lets look and see who it's referring to. It overwhelmingly applys to Jesus himself. Check it out.
What I find interesting is that there is no clear picture in the NT as to the function of the 'pastor' gift. The apostolic gift is clearly the spiritual authority, and foundation of the church in the natural realm. 1 Cor 12:28. These are the ones who have spiritual authority. Heb 13: 7,17,24.
Today, pastors are the top of the pile in most churches. They answer to a board, or denominational headquarters. All other gifts are now below them. Most of them went to a seminary, to get credentials, so they can get a position at a church at whatever denomination they graduated from. Nowhere in scripture are we told to do this. Take away their paychecks and see how many stay with the flock. These men are hirelings. So why are they at the top of the pile? Because they make the sheep comfortable. Apostles don't make sheep comfortable. Acts 5;11-13. They are scary, working signs and wonders. Prophets certainly don't make sheep comfotable. They are always there for correction. Who wants that? In the OT when one showed up in a ' church' most were killed for their trouble. By the very people they were trying to warn. So in todays church, we have thrown out the Apostles and Prophets, because they upset the sheep. We have replaced them with pastors, who feed us milk and put us to sleep.
God speaks very clearly as to how the church should operate. 1Cor 12:18, 28. If there is an expiration date for this, I have not found it. I don't believe God has changed His mind about it. If I am incorrect in my thinking, please correct me. My desire is to always rightly divide the Word. Thanks!

[blueheron32]

Potters house...

I am quite in agreement with your opinion..about todays pastors. you might like to look at Gods use of the word pastors in the old testament..it is found seven times there all in the book of Jeremiah, of those seven times six times, God does not speak to well of them...

Jer 2:8 The priests said not, Where is the LORD? and they that handle the law knew me not: the pastors also transgressed against me, and the prophets prophesied by Baal, and walked after things that do not profit.
Jer 10:21 For the pastors are become brutish, and have not sought the LORD: therefore they shall not prosper, and all their flocks shall be scattered.
Jer 12:10 Many pastors have destroyed my vineyard, they have trodden my portion under foot, they have made my pleasant portion a desolate wilderness.
Jer 22:22 The wind shall eat up all thy pastors, and thy lovers shall go into captivity: surely then shalt thou be ashamed and confounded for all thy wickedness.
Jer 23:1 Woe be unto the pastors that destroy and scatter the sheep of my pasture! saith the LORD.
Jer 23:2 Therefore thus saith the LORD God of Israel against the pastors that feed my people; Ye have scattered my flock, and driven them away, and have not visited them: behold, I will visit upon you the evil of your doings, saith the LORD.

I would suggest a careful reading of the first 25 or so chapters of Jeremiah..and consider the fact that Jeremiah is describing the state of the churches and congregations of our day..

I would like to make one point of clarification concerning your statements about apostles and prophets...All true believers are prophets, in that all of us
"declare the word of God". God does not give new revelation today, because such would be adding to the word of God..but today we act as prophets as we declare Gods word as circumscribed in the Bible. All believers are involved in this activity....men women young and old.... In the same way, the office of apostle ended with the deaths of the apostles in the first century... God no longer appears to people and appoints them to be apostles as he did in the first century..rather, again....all true believers are apostles as we are sent by God into all the world with the gospel..that gosple again being circumscribed by the word of God the Bible. The Prophets of old...are still the prophets of today..Jeremiah still speaks a relevant message...and micah and jonah..ezekiel and daniel and Isaiah...We must not seek additional revelation other than what God has already given us...

The Word of God, the Bible..as given to us by God through the Apostles and Prophets, is sufficient for every purpose God sends it.

Heb 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
2Ti 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
2Ti 3:17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

Let us thank God every day, for his word....and his servants who delivered it unto us. :-)

blueheron32

[hisway]

I just find it so amazing how some can quote the Bible in their own understanding, and look down at those who do not see it as they do. The threads on Women leaders and prophets as been beaten to death here. I think we should all look to the Masters words and see that the truth is taught by Holy Spirit who can only tell the truth. Men tend to try and push their human understand on to others and many fall for it. Some have become lazy and depend upon others to study for them, when we should all be diligent in our studying of the scriptures that Holy Spirit may enlighten us to the Holy Truth and not depend upon mere men to show us the truth.

As to the comments in regard to prophecies to day being nonexistent, where in the Bible does it state that this gift shall end. God speaks today as He did in old, through prophets to warn His children.

A good topic would be one that would build up the body, edify the believers. One like how we can all live a sinless life now and today (Inner-man).

[blueheron32]

Rev 22:18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:
Rev 22:19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

If by "prophecy" you mean that God is still adding to his revelation... if you mean he is adding to his word....no..that kind of prophecy no longer exists. If it did, that person would be adding to the words of this book and would become sugject to the curse of God. On the other hand if you mean by prophecy, the act of declaring the word of God, as described by the bible alone and in its entirety, yes that office still is present in the world and is the ministry of every true believer, male female young and old. And yes, the Holy Spirit does lead us into all truth, and the truth he teaches us of is that which we find in the Bible alone and in its entirety. The Bible is still relavant today..the message of Jeremiah and Ezekiel is for today, it is a fresh and timely message that we should all be listening to.

blueheron32

[Paul 2006]

it says women cannot be in positions of leadership and power over men. a woman can be a preacher as long as she is not in a position of leadership and power. this is possible, but unlikely. the very essence of being a preacher is to lead a flock.

[romans 8:17]

I was just looking through this, it started with my question if women can be deacons... pheobe in the bible was a deacon. I think women ordination, although cotreverisal is a vital part of the church. Recently the southern baptists put an end to female ordinnation, firing all the women. Is someone gonna be more likely to be saved if they hear the news of God through a man? NO! God speaks through us all, we are all equally responsible, although different we have things in common. Not all men are the same and not all woman are the same. So why put specific gender roles on christians? It is beyond me.

[EnterHisPresence]

I again disagree with you blue...
You said..."God does not give new revelation today, because such would be adding to the word of God..but today we act as prophets as we declare Gods word as circumscribed in the Bible".

That is not right! God does give us revelations today. God uses prophets the same as He did in the book of the NT and the OT. What part of God is still the same yesterday, today and forever, do we not get? You claim that the gifts of the Spirit would be adding to the word of God. Let's look at what the scripture actually says...Rev 22:18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

Now considering that the Holy Bible didn't exist as we know it today. We know that John was specifically talking about the book of Revelation. God gave John this revelation it was not to be added to or taken away. Rev 1:3 Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand.

You keep trying to put God in some small box, by your He doesn't do this, He can't do that. When will you let God out of the box and let God be God?

[romans 8:17]

how am i putting God in a box... thats the problem, people put God in a box. We cannot possibly understand him through human eyes.

[EnterHisPresence]

I wasn't talking about you Romans....I was talking about blueheron.

[m.o.m.]

Just to clarify, Romans, not all Southern Baptist hold to that belief and not all women were fired.

We Southern Baptist are an interesting lot -- believing in the autonomy of the local church. We associated through what we call a "convention" and through state and local associations. We do this in order to have a greater impact on the world through our combined efforts. Our local churches, however, are not under the authority of this convention to abide by its "suggestions" and we are a VERY diverse lot.

here has also been a long running debate in the Southern Baptist Churches between what has been dubbed the "conservative" and the "moderate" factions. (there probably are no liberal Southern Baptists; although, the conservative lot might disagree with that). So, while I am still struggling with what I believe is the Biblcal place of women in the church I wanted you to know that this is not settled in all Southern Baptisit Churches. Many do have women deacons and I know of one church here in Waco, Texas (The Belt Buckle of the Southern Baptist Bible Belt) which has a woman pastor.

I am going to study and pray more on this topic. Just wanted to dispel a myth. God bless you!