Separation and Divorce

[grl827]

Hi,
I am new to this board. I wanted to get your opinions on how the bible is against divorce. I know it is wrong, but are there some situations that you think it is permissable and forgiven? Please help, and I considering divorce and so afraid that I won't be forgiven. I am 42 and have been married for 24 years. My children are grown now, so I feel I have done my job. I have been through about 20 years of my marriage that were emotionally and often physically abusive (no bruises though). The physical stuff was pushing, throwing, putting his hands around my neck against a wall, kicking me in the back, screaming and drawing his fist back like he so often wanted to hit me. He has put me outside in the cold and dark, during the winter, not for long though. Threatened to burn down our house, torn up my car so it wouldn't run. These are just examples, but basically I stayed for the children and I just don't have the love for him that a wife should have. I do have to say he has been better with the physical stuff the last 3 or 4 years and the temper has been better since September when I told him I wanted to leave. I really think he is trying to change. I hate feeling this cold toward him. Please give your advice. Sorry this is so long.:(

[OneJoe]

grl, no divorce is wrong. I realize you are in a bad way and I do understand. I grew up around what you speak of. My mother was a victim as well. My sister has been a victim. Abuse is unfortunately quite common. But in regard to scripture, the bible is clear that divorce is a sin and transgresses against God. Do you have to stick around and put up with the abuse, no I don't believe you have to, but biblically you are not to divorce.

1Co 7:10 And unto the married I command, yet not I, but the Lord, Let not the wife depart from her husband:
1Co 7:11 But and if she depart, let her remain unmarried, or be reconciled to her husband: and let not the husband put away his wife.

1Co 7:39 The wife is bound by the law as long as her husband liveth; but if her husband be dead, she is at liberty to be married to whom she will; only in the Lord.

Rom 7:3 So then if, while her husband liveth, she be married to another man, she shall be called an adulteress: but if her husband be dead, she is free from that law; so that she is no adulteress, though she be married to another man.

I believe those scriptures will help clarify that just a bit. Not sticking around and putting up with it is one thing, but divorce is a sin. However, I am not justifying the possibility of you leaving. Rather, I will post another scripture about you staying with your husband.

1Pe 3:1 Likewise, ye wives, be in subjection to your own husbands; that, if any obey not the word, they also may without the word be won by the conversation of the wives;
1Pe 3:2 While they behold your chaste conversation coupled with fear.

In these two scriptures, "if any obey not the word" is referring to the husbands that do not obey God's word. Typically, God does his saving by his word. Faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the word of God; however, this is one case we see that someone might be won w/out the word and rather by the wives behavior. The "conversation of the wives" is reffering to the woman's Godly behavior. Though he doesn't obey, by your behavior their is the possiblity he may be won. So I realize your decision is a hard one and I pray that God helps you on this trial, but do some serious praying about whether you should leave and take the easier road or take that road full of tribulation and heart ache just for the possiblity he may be won. Whichever your decision, I pray that God looks after you and guides you in all things. May the love of our savior Jesus Christ shine upon you.

Onejoe

[brenn]

Hi,
I am new to this board. I wanted to get your opinions on how the bible is against divorce. I know it is wrong, but are there some situations that you think it is permissable and forgiven? Please help, and I considering divorce and so afraid that I won't be forgiven. I am 42 and have been married for 24 years. My children are grown now, so I feel I have done my job. I have been through about 20 years of my marriage that were emotionally and often physically abusive (no bruises though). The physical stuff was pushing, throwing, putting his hands around my neck against a wall, kicking me in the back, screaming and drawing his fist back like he so often wanted to hit me. He has put me outside in the cold and dark, during the winter, not for long though. Threatened to burn down our house, torn up my car so it wouldn't run. These are just examples, but basically I stayed for the children and I just don't have the love for him that a wife should have. I do have to say he has been better with the physical stuff the last 3 or 4 years and the temper has been better since September when I told him I wanted to leave. I really think he is trying to change. I hate feeling this cold toward him. Please give your advice. Sorry this is so long.:(
Matthew 19:3-9
3) The Pharisees also came unto him, tempting him, Is it lawful for a man to put away his wife for every cause?

4) And he answered them, Have ye not read, that he which made them male and female,

5) And said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife and they twain shall be one flesh?

6) Wherefore they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let no man put asunder.

7) They said unto him, Why did Moses then command to give a wqrituing of divorcement, and to put her away?

8) He saith unto them, Moses because of the hardness of your hearts suffered you to put away your wives: but from the beginning it was not so.

9) And I say unto you, Whosoever shall put away his wife except it be for fornication, and shall mary another, commiteth adultery: and whoso marrieth her which is put away doth commit adultery.

adultery is the only biblical grounds for divorce. it's still not what God intended but He has allowed it ONLY for adultery. Even in that case it is best to at least try to forgive and work it out.

as for your situation., having been in a very physicaly abusive marriage before I was saved I don't recommend staying there if it becomes an immediate danger. I see no harm in leaving for a night or a week to remain safe. You didn't mention whether you and your husband were saved. If you are then keep yourself safe and pray for the Lord to intervene. He will guide you.
I'll keep this in my prayers
brenn

[Potters House]

Hello,
I am going to come at a different angle at this. It is without question that God hates divorce. It is a considered a sin, just like stealing and lying and murder. Sin is sin is sin. We have a savior that has paid the price for our sin. I refuse to believe that my savior would want any woman to stay in a violent marriage, where her life is at risk.
Had I not divorced, I would be dead, long ago, and would not be writing this today. I am no longer living in fear for my life or the lives of my children. I remarried several years later, to a righteous man, and have recommitted my life to Christ. God cannot use you if you are in a pit. You have to climb out of that pit, so that you can reach out to others.
If your husband is willing to go to counseling, and you feel God will heal your marriage, start seeking outside help. This is time for prayer and fasting.
You don't have love for him? Hmmm. Without trust, how can there be love?
My ex DID burn down the house. Shot the dogs. Broke out windows. Put a 38 cal. gun to my temple and threatened to shoot me. Kept me isolated from family and friends. And went way beyond beating, but for the sake of this public forum, I won't go into it. We lived in continual poverty. Homeless most of the time. Lived in a tent. Gave birth twice, alone. No electricity or running water. No car. As I look back at that woman, I don't recognize her. But I do remember I didn't believe in God, because I couldn't accept that he would allow this cruelty to happen. I had done nothing to deserve my fate, except marry the wrong man.
However God does allow us to go thru trials and tribulations. As I look back, I can see where He never left me. Even though I had given up on Him.
He pulled me out of the pit and stood me on that Rock, and I never turned back. He restored my life. From homeless, to a beautiful ranch home on thousands of acres. From poverty, to owning my own manufacturing co, with products all across the U.S. From a marriage made in hell, to one blessed by God. From a woman who once wore clothing she found in a ditch, to providing for a clothing ministry for the poor.
Sometimes we get in the boat and never let go of the dock. Out of fear. Let go! God will blow you where he wants you to go.

[m.o.m.]

Wow, Potters. What a great testimony to the faithfulness of God. Thanks for sharing that with us.

m.o.m.

[Roma]

grl. and Potter's House,

I cannot believe how the tears filled my eyes as I read both of your posts. I too, have come from a marriage such as you speak of. My circumstances were not as dire as Potter's, but painful none-the-less. When I came home to a three-year-old child who had been severely beaten, I turned him in and I left him.

Neither of us were saved at the time, and one day I had brought home a book from the library about salvation and making Christ the center of the home and marriage. I read it and then asked him to read it as well. I knew it was the only way to save our marriage, and yet he refused saying that no one was going to tell him how to run his life or marriage.

Many years later after both of us had experienced salvation, remarried and established families of our own, he told me during a conversation that he regrets not having read that book and daily wonders what could have happened if he had.

I am the last person to give advice, but I know what the Bible says re: divorce, and I know that had we decided to follow Christ and His teachings, both of us today would not be living with that question in the back of our minds... "What if?"

I am praying for you Dear Sister,
Roma

[Momma K]

Potters House,

It is so hard to hear of this horrible pain that you went through. I wish it had not been so for you, and for so many other women. What a joy to hear how God brought you through this. These situations are so very complicated. Women and their children suffer. It must be such a feeling of despair when you're in the midst of it. I'm so glad your life is better.

Grl,

If God heals your marriage, in time, the coldness will go away. As long as you are safe....emotionally and physically....hang in there. Stay in touch.

[grl827]

Potter,
Thank you for sharing your story with me. I shouldn't really be complaining about my life when so many are going through things like you have dealt with. Maybe I should be looking at my blessings, instead of hanging on to the bad things. I feel I have grown very cold in my christianity also. I used to attend every service at church, and I was an assistant with the Youth group at church. My husband decided one day we weren't going back to that church, because in his words the pastor was a hypocrite. My husband didn't like the sermon that day. We bounced around to different churches, but after many years we are now back at our original church. I just don't feel the same anymore, I seem to have grown cold. If I could feel God back in my life, maybe I could work through everything with my husband also. Thank you again, and I am so happy to hear that your life is filled with blessings that you so deserve.

[grl827]

Thank you,
I appreciate the replies from each of you. I am glad I found this forum. I pray that I make the right decision and take the path that God is leading me to.

[vrspock]

Hello,
I am going to come at a different angle at this. It is without question that God hates divorce. It is a considered a sin, just like stealing and lying and murder. Sin is sin is sin. We have a savior that has paid the price for our sin. I refuse to believe that my savior would want any woman to stay in a violent marriage, where her life is at risk.


1 corinthians 7:12-15
"But to the rest speak I, not the Lord: If any brother hath a wife that believeth not, and she be pleased to dwell with him, let him not put her away. And the woman which hath an husband that believeth not, and if he be pleased to dwell with her, let her not leave him. For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the husband: else were your children unclean; but now are they holy. But if the unbelieving depart, let him depart. A brother or a sister is not under bondage in such cases: but God hath called us to peace."

When someone abuses their spouse, they are saying by their own actions that they have chosen to ignore the vows they spoke before their spouse, their family...their spouse's family...and most importantly....God. They just tossed those vows and God's own Word out the window with their own actions. Actions speak louder than idle words.

Since the vows have been broken by the one who chose to break them...either through abusive behavior, adultry, or some other action on their part that goes against the very vows that they spoke and demonstrate a lack of love, I'd say that they are standing on the line if not stepped over it into the role that the above verse calls "unbeliever" and need to take a deep look within themselves and consider for a moment where God sees them and their walk with Him.

I say this because if they break a vow they made to God and don't seem to understand the dangerous and condemning position this puts them in with God, then obviously there is something that they are failing to believe about God and His Word and its time for them to stop acting like a Christian and become one for real.

[AJ29]

Can someone answer my question? I am dating a christian woman that is divorced but she is divorced to an already divorced man. If it is written in the bible that the first one you are married to is the one to whom the Lord has bound you too is she wrong to remarry? He was physically and emotionally abusive to her and her children. In addition, she cought him several times in the act of adultury. And we all know that the bible says about that. But if he was previously married to another was there marriage even acknowledged by the Lord? Just like the woman who came to Jesus and had 5 husbands but Jesus told her that the one she is now married to is not her husband but the first man she married? Please help me.

[Rylee]

If you want to take the Bible as literally as possible, I would say that it is wrong to remarry. You already stated that "the first one you are married to is the one to whom the Lord has bound you".... and it is an unfortunate situation, but that doesn't change what the Bible has to say. The situation doesn't justify breaking God's law. Perhaps there's some sort of loophole that I don't know about... for that, you'd have to get advice from somebody else.

[WhiterThanSnow]

sweet sister, it is great that you are wanting to do the right thing and trust me God will honor that. I was just recently faced with a choice I had to make. I knew what the right thing to do was, but a very apealing way out was offered to me. I prayed about it for weeks and God convicted me to walk in His will and not mine. I am so glad I listened. Things are still hard, but it's getting better and having the peace that I didn't rebel against God is better than any other route I could've taken.
I am not in a relationship and this is another story all together, but being in God's will is always best and His word is clear on divorce. I know it can be hard to swallow when you are going through such hard times, but God see's the end from the beggining. Trust Him. Obey and you will enjoy the blessed peace that only He can give. Divorce is not the unforgivable sin, but it is absolutley devestaing to anyone involved. I was 18 when my parents divorced and it was one of the hardest things I've had to face. Your kids being older doesn't make it any better, in fact probably worse. Run to Jesus! I'm praying for you.

[Treasure AKA germanjoy]

Hi,
I am new to this board. I wanted to get your opinions on how the bible is against divorce. I know it is wrong, but are there some situations that you think it is permissable and forgiven? Please help, and I considering divorce and so afraid that I won't be forgiven. I am 42 and have been married for 24 years. My children are grown now, so I feel I have done my job. I have been through about 20 years of my marriage that were emotionally and often physically abusive (no bruises though). The physical stuff was pushing, throwing, putting his hands around my neck against a wall, kicking me in the back, screaming and drawing his fist back like he so often wanted to hit me. He has put me outside in the cold and dark, during the winter, not for long though. Threatened to burn down our house, torn up my car so it wouldn't run. These are just examples, but basically I stayed for the children and I just don't have the love for him that a wife should have. I do have to say he has been better with the physical stuff the last 3 or 4 years and the temper has been better since September when I told him I wanted to leave. I really think he is trying to change. I hate feeling this cold toward him. Please give your advice. Sorry this is so long.:(
hello grl827, I normally keep myself out of giving advices on 'divorce and remarriage' without seeing the WHOLE picture of the marital condition. And sometimes it takes a long time before I could personally give my final word. However, I can't help but feel the need of giving a short comment on your situation. From the above-quoted stories you have related, I honestly do not see any valid reason for divorce. I admire your courage of "sticking to the truth" about the physical abuse without bruises for that is an important matter to consider. I believe that your husband is not violent and that he is in control of his anger. And for that matter, he is showing willingness to keep you and that is a positive sign of thinking on working out on your marriage instead of divorce. :-)

I have personally experienced and helped several "christian" wives who claimed to be "physically abused/hit" by their husbands. After going through the process of "establishing the whole truth", it turned out that these women were simply led by fear and desperation. Their fear towards the physical strength of their husband (their childhood reveals that they were violently hit by their own fathers) against their own weaknesses makes them feel abused. The truth came out that the words and behaviour of these wives became so provoking leading to their husbands' outburst of anger . These men have tried to warn their wives many times but they would refused to remain silent. Faced with no choice, the husbands had to hit any object with their fist to bring their anger out. One wife even challenged the husband to hit her, took the knife herself and handed it over to him. In another incident, she hit him so hard that made him push her into the door. Another wife fled to the women's home with a blue spot on her upper arm and claimed she was physically abused. After he warned her to stop nagging which she refused, he grabbed her arm resulting to that blue spot. These women have separated themselves from their husbands accusing them of "physical abuse". In my opinion, it was over-exagerrated.

I do not deny the fact that there are indeed real life-threatening domestic violence, a good example was Potter's story. For the sake of saving the lives of the mother and her children, it is advisable in such cases to quickly leave the relationship. Domestic violence has to be clearly identified and not abused by women as a "cheap excuse" or reason to justify divorce and remarriage.

[m.o.m.]

Hello Treasure,

I am curious what your qualifications are to counsel these women -- not saying you don't have any... just curious.

While I don't advocate jumping to divorce as the first solution for these problems, some of your statements are disturbing to me. You basically claim that many of these women were "asking for it" by their behavior. I cannot see that that is an excuse. Even in the eyes of the law (at least in the US) it is not an excuse unless they throw the first punch. I have a sister whose husband called her filthy filthy names. She slapped him and he put her in a choke hold and nearly suffocated her to death. When she called the cops, they arrested her because she "threw the first punch."

I contend that even with such provocation, unless one has to resort to physical violence to defend oneself, that it is not appropriate to get physical in return. When a child hits a playmate and says -- he just made me mad, we don't excuse that behavior -- why would we do so with a spouse. Even if the child says the other hit him first, we try to teach them that there are better responses to that and to only return in a physical manner if it is necessary for self-defense.

I would also like to point out that living with the "threat" of violence can be just as damaging or more than the actual physical violence -- not only to the spouse, but to any children living in that situation. Some would quote to me the sciprture "Wives, submit to your husbands." I would respond that husband are admonished to love their wives even as Christ has loved the church -- and it goes on to say that they are to "love their own wives as their own bodies." This is all in Ephesians 5:22-33.

So my reccomendation to anyone in this situation would be to flee violence -- even emotional violence -- and then spend much time in prayer and Bible study before making a decision to divorce. It may be that God will heal the situation or perhaps God will call you to remain married but separate if that is necessary for your safety. Six months ago, I would have said to divorce and move on -- now I am seeking in this area; so I will not encourage that (although I can't say I'm 100% convinced it is wrong in all situations). It is a decision between the individual and the Lord. Spend MUCH time in prayer and study before making it.

God bless!

From a fellow seeker in the Lord,

m.o.m.

[Treasure AKA germanjoy]

Hello m.o.m. I am neither a psychologist nor a licensed marriage counselor. Wives with marital problems consult me voluntarily to seek for refuge, comfort, counsel, etc. I guess they choose me because of our close relationships and because of my capabilities and experiences in dealing with this issue. Bragging aside, I myself live a victorious and stable long-lasting marriage. So they know that I know what I am saying and therefore they come to me.

While I don't advocate jumping to divorce as the first solution for these problems, some of your statements are disturbing to me. You basically claim that many of these women were "asking for it" by their behavior. I cannot see that that is an excuse.
No one wants to "asks for a fight". It just happens, for some unfortunately more frequent than others. It always takes two to tango. Both partners are responsible for the cause of the fight, neither the husband nor the wife is innocent or guilty. I didn't want to imply that these women asked for it. I have explained that they themselves were victims of physical abuse by their own fathers. Because of this, they see a manly figure as an authority and the moment the husband shows anger, they tend to be defensive and over-react to the husband's own actions.

Normally (with some exceptions of course), if two men severely fight, they use their fists and if two women severely fight, they use their mouths. Difficult times are expected if a woman and a man severely fight. :-(

Even in the eyes of the law (at least in the US) it is not an excuse unless they throw the first punch. I have a sister whose husband called her filthy filthy names. She slapped him and he put her in a choke hold and nearly suffocated her to death. When she called the cops, they arrested her because she "threw the first punch."
In my given example, not one of the women was ever called filthy names by the husband. The one who punched her husband had problems herself with self-control and violence (she punished her daughter by burning her hand with a hot candle-wax). But praise God after my long counselling and prayer with her, she is now delivered from this stronghold.

I contend that even with such provocation, unless one has to resort to physical violence to defend oneself, that it is not appropriate to get physical in return. When a child hits a playmate and says -- he just made me mad, we don't excuse that behavior -- why would we do so with a spouse. Even if the child says the other hit him first, we try to teach them that there are better responses to that and to only return in a physical manner if it is necessary for self-defense.
I'd like to clarify that the men in my given example were not violent. I also know them pretty well. They got very angry without touching their wives. Anger is not a sin as we know. If it leads to violently hurting people, it becomes a sin. Remember, when Jesus got angry, He expressed his anger by overturning the tables (physical violence towards objects but not towards the people).

I for one am also against any form of domestic violence as well as "threats of violence". Violence is the opposite of love. A husband who punches his wife loves not. A husband who loves his wife is always ready to lay his own life to defend her against anyone who would harm her. That is the kind of love spoken of by Paul in Eph. 5:25. Christ, the husband, laid His life for the church, the wife. :-)

To the wife-hitting husbands, I have this to say: If you are unable to obey Eph. 5:25, you are not in the position to impute Eph. 5:23 to your wives. The title "husbands" is attained by your act of love towards your wives. Can you ever imagine Christ "punching, kicking, hurting, saying filthy names, strangling, yelling, etc. to the church? UNTHINKABLE! :-p That is really something to think about!!! ;)

[grl827]

Thanks m.o.m.,
I have spent much time thinking and praying about this decision. I just wish I could hear his answer on this one. I have lived so many years, walking on eggshells, not knowing when the next time would be that his temper would blow or how bad it would be this time. The episodes were just about everyday, I basically lived in fear each day. My plan right now is to live on my own, I have taken a 3 month lease to get myself straight, I have no intention of filing for a divorce right now, but if I can't find the love or respect in my heart that I should have for my husband, how can I ever submit to him the way that I should? That in itself, I am sure is sin also. I should not have these feelings for him, but I have felt this way around 15 years. I only gave a few examples of his actions toward me, my son, who was a teenager at the time has pulled him off of me during some the more violent episodes, that makes me wonder if he would have REALLY hurt me had someone else not been in the house. Treasure made a reference to a father and comparing the violence to them. I'm not saying I was ever even near perfect, but my father never had to spank or scold me. I am rather a soft spoken and eager to please kind of person. I don't like conflict, especially physical.

I thank everyone for the prayers and replies.