Free Will ????

[Ken]

It seems most people want a god that fits what their nature tells them a good god is. Many
serve the god "I" and don't seem to know the God of the bible. When people talk about
salvation it's almost always I... I... I! I accepted Jesus, I'm a soul winner etc.
The I gods can't seem to accept that Jesus and Only Jesus saves. We see examples in the
scriptures where God has turned His servants around when they have not followed Him and not
gave them the free will to follow other gods, or sin against Him.. The
scriptures teach us that God allows things to happen, so His predestined purpose will come
to pass. He also at times interferes with free will because He is in control. I
will post a small number of the many scriptures that deal with free will, or the lack of
free will.

Exodus 4:11
"And the LORD said unto him, Who hath made man's mouth? or who maketh the dumb, or deaf,
or the seeing, or the blind? have not I the LORD?"

Exodus 4:21
"And the LORD said unto Moses, When thou goest to return into Egypt, see that thou do all
those wonders before Pharaoh, which I have put in thine hand: but I will harden his heart,
that he shall not let the people go."

Prov. 16:4
"The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil."

Mark 4:9-12
"And he said unto them, He that hath ears to hear, let him hear. And when he was alone, they
that were about him with the twelve asked of him the parable. And he said unto them, Unto
you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without,
all these things are done in parables: That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and
hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and
their sins should be forgiven them."

John 6:39
"And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I
should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day."

John 10: 26-28
"But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you. My sheep hear my
voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they
shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand."

2 Thess. 2:9-12
"Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying
wonders, and with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they
received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this cause God shall
send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned
who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness."

Rom. 9 9-23
"For this is a word of promise: 'At this time I will come, and Sarah shall have a son.' And
not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac; ( For
the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of
God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth; ) It was said
unto her, The elder shall serve the younger. As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau
have I hated. What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid. For he
saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on
whom I will have compassion. So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth,
but of God that sheweth mercy. For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same
purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might
be declared throughout all the earth. Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy,
and whom he will he hardeneth. Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For
who hath resisted his will? Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall
the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? Hath not the potter
power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto
dishonour? What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured
with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: And that he might make
known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto
glory,"

Rom. 11:8
"( According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they
should not see, and ears that they should not hear; ) unto this day."

Isaiah 55:8-9
"For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD. For
as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my
thoughts than your thoughts."

Proverbs 3:5-7
"Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding. In all
thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths. Be not wise in thine own eyes:
fear the LORD, and depart from evil."

Lamentations 3:40
"Let us search and try our ways, and turn again to the LORD."

Will we continue to put our faith in I for salvation, or will we let Jesus save us? Maybe
it's time that we stop saying we accept Jesus and ask Him to accept us?

[heaven]

WOW! That sure is a slap in the face to alot of us. That is soo true! Thanks alot Ken.. your message really gave me encouragement.. and helped me realize that maybe whats going on in my life.. is HIS purpose.. it may not be what I want but its what HE wants.. Thanks soo much of reminding me of the truth!

heaven

[Daytimeson23]

boom

[CheeseKing]

Very good, very good. I hadn't read some of those verses til now. Thankyou :). Do you want to know the funny thing? I just finished reading all the first chapters of the bible and all the verses i'm about to give are all from a chapter 1! How many more can be found in the book of our Lord?

Ephesians 1:5 "having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will"

Ephesians 1:11 "In him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will."

1 Thessalonians 1:4 "knowing, beloved brethren, your election by God"

2 Timothy 1:8-9 "(8)Therefore do not be ashamed of the testimony of our Lord, nor of me His prisoner, but share with me in the sufferings for the gospel according to the power of God, (9)who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began"

1 Peter 1:1-2 "elect according to the foreknowledge of God the father, in sanctification of the Spirit, for obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace to you and peace be multiplied."

I have 2 verses that are not a chapter 1 also...

John 15:16 Jesus is talking "You did not choose Me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit, and that your fruit should remain, that whatever you ask the Father in my name He may give you."

John 15:19 Jesus is talking "If you were of the world, the world would love its own. Yet because you are not of thw world, but I chose you out of the world, therefore the world hates you."

There are probably other verses that I over looked, while reading each chapter 1 of every book, but this shows that many more verses are out there. Why trust in ourselves, when we can't move mountains or stop hurricanes. It is the Lord who works all things. It is the Lord who saves and it was done before time began.

[germanJoy]

Two extremes can always end up deadly. With this I mean, "free-will and pre-destination". Both are scriptural but some see them as contradictory although they actually are not. It is like a glass half-filled with water, one sees it "half-full" while the other sees it "half-empty". Both perceptions are true and correct, the difference lies on how one sees it. If one claims the glass is just half-full (then it is only half-truth) because the glass is also half-empty. In the same way, free-will and pre-destination should be balanced and seen wholly.

The danger lies if one becomes extreme in pre-destination (leading to "once saved is always saved") and ignores free-will. In the same manner, to be extreme in free-will could lead to "salvation by works". Yes, both are deadly.

The balance teaching is "we are saved by faith alone" and "we need to work out our salvation with fear and trembling".

If anyone wish to see the scriptures on "free-will", I will post them next time.

[JonBoy]

You are looking at one side of the coin. If your view is followed through then the conclusion is that God is the author of evil, God creates evil, It was God who caused the fall. God is behind every wicked act that happens. We should not look to our nature to understand what good is we should rather look to the word of God. The NT teaches that Jesus healed the sick, was jesus removing something that God had caused. Human responsibility cannot be removed.

[SemperReformanda]

I would LOVE to see some scripture supporting freewill brother. :) I have NEVER seen a biblical case presented for teh idea that we are capable of willing what we ought outside of divine intervention. Many appeals to emotion, or "common sense". But scripture that teaches that unregenerate man is free to trust christ prior to regenerateion? im not sure such a case exists :)

intrigued for to see your response
your bro,
nathan

[SemperReformanda]

Jonboy said: "The NT teaches that Jesus healed the sick, was jesus removing something that God had caused."

Intresting question.

Look for a bit, if ya will at the story in the beginning of John 9

"Jhn 9:1 As He passed by, He saw a man blind from birth.
Jhn 9:2 And His disciples asked Him, "Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he would be born blind?"
Jhn 9:3 Jesus answered, "{It was} neither {that} this man sinned, nor his parents; but {it was} so that the works of God might be displayed in him. "

A man was blind, through no fault of his own or his parents. In fact there was specific design behind his blindness. So that God would be glorified in the upcoming work. IF there is design and purpose there must be a designer and purpose giver no?. Now who would have designed a blindness for the express purpose of God's glory? Who could but God?
So yes.. I would say yes Christ's healing was a reversal of a prior work of God. NOt a combative overthrow ofa previous plan of GOd, but a fulfillment of a work the Father started by causing the man to be born blind.

Again the story of Lazerus. in John 11. Why was lazerus dying? was there reason or purpose behind it? Vs for tells us why the sickness was on lazerus "for the glory of God"

John 11:4 But when Jesus heard {this,} He said, "This sickness is not to end in death, but for the glory of God, so that the Son of God may be glorified by it."

You know the story of Job I'm sure. His children are killed, his servants murdered and the flocks driven off and stolen from him, he even loses his health as he becomes plagued with boils. Who does Job credit as the ultimate cause of this?

1:21 "He said, "Naked I came from my mother's womb, And naked I shall return there. The LORD gave and the LORD has taken away. Blessed be the name of the LORD.""

and again in 2:10 ...But he said to her, "You speak as one of the foolish women speaks. Shall we indeed accept good from God and not accept adversity?"

And the inspired (God breathed) scriptures say about Jobs charge of God's responsibility

1:22 "In all this Job sinned not, nor charged God foolishly"
2:10 "...In all this Job did not sin with his lips.."

God is behind every sickness, every death, every catastrophe even ordaining the occurances of evil and sin (NEVER committing sin or evil!, but ordaining that they shoudl come to pass in order to fulfill His great purposes).

For example.
Isa 10.. God speaks against the king of Assyria. He (the assyrian king) has boasted that he was able to plunder, rob, conquer, and oppress nations. And read God's charge against him.. He was a rod in the hand of the ONE who was wielding it for his purposes.

then the most blatant example is the wost crime of all time. THe murder of Christ himself. Crucifiction of the innocent. Rejection of God himself.

Act 4:24-28

So when they heard that, they raised their voice to God with one accord and said: "Lord, You are God, who made heaven and earth and the sea, and all that is in them,
"who by the mouth of Your servant David* have said:
'Why did the nations rage,
And the people plot vain things?
The kings of the earth took their stand,
And the rulers were gathered together
Against the LORD and against His Christ.'*

For truly against Your holy Servant Jesus, whom You anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles and the people of Israel, were gathered together
to do whatever Your hand and Your purpose determined before to be done "

You are of course right that we cannot ignore human responsability. Throughout the scriptures it is very evident that we are responsible to do and choose right. Responsability to choose rightly, however, never in scripture necessitates the ability to choose rightly.

[SemperReformanda]

"we need to work out our salvation with fear and trembling"...
Stopping there you leave out a vital piece of the picture. read the next verse :)

Phl 2:12 AND 13
Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.


13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of [his] good pleasure.

The argument on freewill isnt whether or not we can do what we want. Of course we can. we ALWAYS do what we want. The arguement is can we want what we are supposed to want. And no not unless God changes that want. We (mankind) want to rebel, to reject all things Godly. But God works in us to will his good pleasure. We dont will it on our own.

Its not this Idea the nonreformed seem to have about sovereing grace ,that there are these poor people who want to come get saved but God is not lettign them.
Its that no one wants to get saved. All men want NOTHING to do with a Holy Sovereing and just God. And since the fall of man no one CAN want to come to God except that God changes their will to one that desires Him and desires Truth.

Man is free to do what he wills, but not to will what he ought


""Man is nothing: he hath a free will to go to hell, but none to go to heaven, till God worketh in him to will and to do his good pleasure"

- George Whitefield

[jesus_freak_[^_^]]

GOD DID NOT CREATE EVIL!!! man created evil when he decided to eat of the forbiden fruit! and yes god put it their, but thats because he didnt want robots, he wanted men with FREE WILL!!!

the devil does bad things to try to get us to fall from god.
god doesnt let them happen, it was mans choice to disobay god.

god loves us and some times it may seem that he is a mean god but things bad things happen to us because of the choice of man, and I am grateful!

the pains I have been through have been gate, but I am closer to god then I have ever been!!!

[OneJoe]

']GOD DID NOT CREATE EVIL!!! man created evil when he decided to eat of the forbiden fruit! and yes god put it their, but thats because he didnt want robots, he wanted men with FREE WILL!!!

the devil does bad things to try to get us to fall from god.
god doesnt let them happen, it was mans choice to disobay god.

god loves us and some times it may seem that he is a mean god but things bad things happen to us because of the choice of man, and I am grateful!

the pains I have been through have been gate, but I am closer to god then I have ever been!!!
Proverbs 16:4
The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.

Jesus freak, man did not create anything. Adam chose to sin, but he didn't create it, and when he transgressed, death passed upon all men. We all became spiritually dead with our only hope being by God's grace.

Jesus Freak, you said the devil does bad things to try to get us to fall from God, but God doesn't let them happen? I disagree there. Take Job for instance...

Job 2:3 And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil? and still he holdeth fast his integrity, although thou movedst me against him, to destroy him without cause.
Job 2:4 And Satan answered the LORD, and said, Skin for skin, yea, all that a man hath will he give for his life.
Job 2:5 But put forth thine hand now, and touch his bone and his flesh, and he will curse thee to thy face.
Job 2:6 And the LORD said unto Satan, Behold, he is in thine hand; but save his life.
Job 2:7 So went Satan forth from the presence of the LORD, and smote Job with sore boils from the sole of his foot unto his crown.

Does God not allow some things to happen?
Do we not go through tribulations and God allows?


Onejoe

[jfreek]

Great post Ken. You would get along quite well with some of the professors over here at college. It is so neat to learn see God's word through the Bible, as well as seeing God's hand in what others say to us. He is truly amazing

[germanJoy]

I would LOVE to see some scripture supporting freewill brother. :) I have NEVER seen a biblical case presented for teh idea that we are capable of willing what we ought outside of divine intervention. Many appeals to emotion, or "common sense". But scripture that teaches that unregenerate man is free to trust christ prior to regenerateion? im not sure such a case exists :)

intrigued for to see your response
your bro,
nathan
If you believe that Jesus was (aside from being God) also a man like us when He walked on earth, then you will believe that we have a freewill too like He had.

And He went a little beyond them, and fell to the ground, and began to pray that if it were possible, the hour might pass Him by. And He was saying, "Abba! Father! All things are possible for Thee; remove this cup from Me; yet NOT WHAT I WILL, BUT WHAT THOU WILT." Mark 14:35-36.

Jesus expressed His "human" freewill which differed to the Father's will but in obedience He finally submitted to God's sovereign will. In the same way, we too have our freewill but only those who recognize God's sovereign will can obey while others who recognize not disobey.

Judas Iscariot recognized that he was destined to perdition and struggled about his lack of FREE WILL. He believed he did not free will and in the end wanted to prove otherwise. Thus he took his life indicating that he had indeed A FREE WILL.

your "sister" in Christ, germanJoy :-)

[SemperReformanda]

Christ was human like us. He was not however of Adam. He is referred to as the second adam. He was born of a virgin, not having the condemnation of slavery to sin and death that all who are born in adam have. Were he of adam he would have original/imputed/inherited sin and be unable to save himself much less the rest of us.

"If you believe that Jesus was (aside from being God) also a man like us when He walked on earth, then you will believe that we have a freewill too like He had."

Is a logical fallicy. Its like saying. if you believe that squares are rectangles you must believe that all rectangles are squares. :) the premise does not necessitate the conclusion :)

[Potters House]

Yes, God DID create evil. He created everything. These are his own words. " That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none, beside me. I am the Lord, and there is none else.
I form the light , and create darkness: I make peace and create EVIL: I the Lord do all these things." Isa 45: 6-7.

[cyberemnant]

Wrong, with a captial "W"...

Almost every verse you posted was taken out of context, which violates one of the most basic principles of Bible interpretation.

AND you quoted so many verses that you have made it very difficult for anyone with any normal amount of time to respond to every one of them.

If you want to engage in fair and meaningful discussion of the Holy Scriptures, please post only one or two verses at a time, so that the rest of us can actually respond without having to write a novel.

Revelation 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever WILL, let him take the water of life freely.

It is an INVITATION that is extended to everyone...which would be meaningless if we did not have the freedom to choose.

Blessings to you!

[cyberemnant]

To SemperReformanda...

I cannnot agree with you, because the Bible teaches nothing of "original sin". That is a man-made doctrine of Roman Catholic origin...it is not Biblical.

If we were born with "original sin" as Catholicism teaches, then babies would carry the penalty of death for Adam's sin from the moment they were born!
Away with such heresy! Children will not answer for sin until they reach the age of accountability, i.e., when they are aware of "right" and "wrong" and they deliberately choose to do wrong. Then and only then will they be guilty of sin.

"Imputed sin" is sin that a person is actually guilty of committing, not sin that is "given" to us or "placed" on us. If it were, then God would be guilty of making us sinners, and thus He would be responsible for sin's existence.

"Inherited sin" is also unBiblical. What we inherit is the "propensity" to sin, i.e., a weakness toward sin. We do not inherit the "guilt" or "condemnation" of our parents' sin. Each person must account for his or her own sin.

Ezekiel 18:20 The soul that sinneth, ITshall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

No such thing as "inherited sin".

Please be careful not to confuse those who are less familiar with Scripture than yourself.

[cyberemnant]

WAIT!

Slow down with this taking of verses out of context and spinning them out of their true meaning! Where is everyone's discernment?!

Proverbs 16:4
The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.

This verse is simply saying that God is able to make all things fit into His plans. He is even able to make the fact that there are wicked people in the world fit into His plan for the end of the world (the day of evil). We might think that because evil exists, God's original plan for mankind can no longer be fulfilled. NOT SO! This verse is reassuring us that even wickedness will not thwart God's plan for His people.

WHAT THE VERSE IS NOT SAYING is that God made or created the wicked! Yes, He created the people, but it was by their own choice that wicked people are wicked. Yet, in the end, even those people will help bring about the ultimate fulfillment of God's plan...even though they might not realize that they are doing it!

One example:
Rev. 17:16 And the ten horns which thou sawest upon the beast, these shall hate the whore, and shall make her desolate and naked, and shall eat her flesh, and burn her with fire.

The context points out that the ten horns are NOT on the Lord's side, but are wicked. (verses 13 & 14) Yet, God will use them to fulfill His end-time plan.

[blueheron32]

Tell me...if a child does not carry the penalty of sin which is death..why do they die.???? my first son lived five days, and died...if the wages of sin is death and he had not sinned...why did he die....I had another child that died in the womb...if he was sinless, not under the penalty of sin which is death...why did he die...????

Rom 5:17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.
Rom 5:18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
Rom 5:19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

seems to me the answer might have something to do with adams sin...

speaking of things not being found in the bible....where does the bible speak of the age of accountability...???? havent ever seen that there..

oh and does this verse have anything to say about at what age a baby is capable of sinning??

Psa 58:3 The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies.

hope Im not confusing you..:-)

blueheron32

[blueheron32]

Rom 9:20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
Rom 9:21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
Rom 9:22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
Rom 9:23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

seems like this passage is saying pretty clearly that those who will be vessels of wrath were prepared by him for that purpose...and the vessels of mercy...they were created by him for that purpose..you might read the rest of romans also..to fully grasp the context of those verses.:-)

blueheron32

[SemperReformanda]

Hey cyberremnant,
Thank you for the rebuke. I do believe in imputed, original, and inherited sin, and will try to reason why it is biblical in this post. However I should not have assumed that everyone should believe its true without validating it with scripture. I can see your point proven in how that can be confusing to those who have not looked into it and are less familiar with scripture.
I appreciate also your "Berean" type response in wanting to be sure a statement like that lines up with the scriptures and the character of God.

However, I do believe the Bible teaches on this and points out pretty clearly how imputed sin affects man kind, as well as how inherited sin nature is resonsible for our propensity (drive towards) to sin.

Paul points this out and romans and it is a key point in his arguement for Gods justifying of the ungodly while still remaining just.

In Romans 4 Paul has been teaching us that God imputes His very own righteousness to all who believe, and tries to explain that to us in the following chapter by comparing and contrasting Christ with Adam.

Rom 5:11 And not only this, but we also exult in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received the reconciliation.
Rom 5:12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned--

So Paul is expounding now on how we recieved reconciliation to God through CHrist and his actions. How can what Christ did have any effect on our position before God? Well look, says paul. "Through One mans [Adam's] action sin entered the world, and death came through this sin." then he says, "Because all sinned". Now does this mean that death spread to all people when all people sin individually? Or is he saying that when adam sinned every single one of us sinned? Because we are counted (imputed) to have sinned in adam. Read on :)


Rom 5:13 for until the Law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

Wow. So before the Law came people still sinned. Sin was in the world. BUT, sin is not imputed (is not counted against us) when there is no Law. So between Adam and the giving of the law with Moses no ones individual sins were counted against them. No one indivudually trangressed a law like Adam did until they recieved the Law. But...

Rom 5:14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam until Moses, even over those who had not sinned in the likeness of the offense of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come.

Paul says. no ones sins were counted against htem in this whole time period. From adam to moses. But they still died! Death is the wage of Sin. If God wasnt counting their sins against them why were they still dying??

Rom 5:15 But the free gift is not like the transgression. For if by the transgression of the one the many died, much more did the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abound to the many.

Because of the sin of ONE PERSON the many died. Adams sin is imputed to all of us and we know this because people who had no personal sin counted against them were dying. THey were suffereing the penalty for the sin of ONE man. And JUST like that, Paul says, the righteousness of One man [Christ] can be imputed (or counted) to many.

Rom 5:16 The gift is not like {that which came} through the one who sinned; for on the one hand the judgment {arose} from one {transgression} resulting in condemnation, but on the other hand the free gift {arose} from many transgressions resulting in justification.
Rom 5:17 For if by the transgression of the one, death reigned through the one, much more those who receive the abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.

By one person, Adam, death reigned to us all, much more, says paul, can the gift of Christ's righteousness (eternal life) reign through the action of one person, Christ.

Rom 5:18 So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men.

echo echo echo :) Paul is driving this point home. Again!! ONE act of sin. One transgrassion of the law condemned EVERY person. ONE act of rightousness can result in their justification of life.

Rom 5:19 For as through the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, even so through the obedience of the One the many will be made righteous.

And then here is an intresting twist. Not only do we all die because of Adam but we were all made sinners because of His action. Here's where that propensity comes in :). We sin because we are sinners. Our sins do not make us sinners, Adam's sin, when we sinned in the Garden, we became sinners. Individual sins are the fruit, the result of our being sinners, not the cause.

and the Law came not to try to stop mans sinfulness but that now that he had Law to transgress he would be held even more responsible than just for adams sin. He would be MORE accountable for transgression, so that the Grace of God would be even greater in paying for that transgression.

"The Law came in so that the transgression would increase; but where sin increased, grace abounded all the more, " Rom 5:20

As Blue pointed out ths was known well before Paul's time :). The psalms teach that from birth we are evil, wicked, liars etc. Ps. 58:3
David takes it back even earlier.. "Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, And in sin my mother conceived me." In ps 51:5 he says at the very time of his conception he was in sin.

Yes, under mosaic law there was an age of accountability. But as blue pointed out this only proves the doctrine of imputed sin. While up to an age the children were not accountable for their individual sins they still died. Why? Because they were guilty of sinning in the Garden. Imputed sin. In the womb they were sinful, because they were counted as sinning in adam.

Praise God however that while we are guilty of sinning in the Garden, we paid our debt when we hung on calvary and are righteous when we followed the law and lived sinless for 33 years fulfilling the fathers will. As we were in adam, now we are in Christ. When before God looked at us and saw Adams rebelion, now He looks at us and sees Christ's obedience. :) Thank God for the doctrine of imputation.

Anyhow, I hope this was helpful, it was a delight to spend the time typing it cuz im stoked out of my gourd at the thought of it again. lol
anyhow. Love in christ,
Nathan

[OneJoe]

Wrong, with a captial "W"...

Almost every verse you posted was taken out of context, which violates one of the most basic principles of Bible interpretation.

AND you quoted so many verses that you have made it very difficult for anyone with any normal amount of time to respond to every one of them.

If you want to engage in fair and meaningful discussion of the Holy Scriptures, please post only one or two verses at a time, so that the rest of us can actually respond without having to write a novel.

Revelation 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever WILL, let him take the water of life freely.

It is an INVITATION that is extended to everyone...which would be meaningless if we did not have the freedom to choose.

Blessings to you!
Cyber....One or two verses? Why, that would leave so many unanswered questions. By posting many scriptures and your view of them narrows down the questions. Perhaps what we should be doing is getting to work looking at God's word and instead of saying something is out of context, show them. In fact, show us all where it is out of context. Use other scriptures to compare to these.

As for Revelation22:17, it is out of context to say that it is an invitation. You are reading into that scripture what you want it to say. "Whosoever will" can only be those that God has began a work in and that surely is not everyone. Phil 1:6) An invitation you say would be meaningless if we couldn't choose? That is interesting, because God also said that not everyone who says Lord Lord shall enter the kingdom of heaven (Mat7:21), so if it is our choice, why would he invite us, give us a choice, then reject us if he so chose to?

Eph 1:6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved. This is a great scripture here. This verse shows that God has made us accepted. Without God, we would be rejected because he has to make us accepted. We can't do it ourselves. It is not of us, but of God. You can tell people that it is their choice, but God's word says different. All the verses about God choosing us, predestinating us, working in us, making us, etc. and all you can say is it's our choice? Show us where God's word says we can choose God and show us in the exact context that you yourself so desire this to be. As for time, most of the people who post on this board have a job, a family, etc. and still find the time to read God's word and find so many scriptures that you must feel overwhelmed by. Lets see where were wrong cyber. Step up to the plate; show us with God's word and not your personal opinion..:-)

[cyberemnant]

I will continue to say that verses are being taken out of context as long as you insist on doing it.

Please be clear on this one thing: I am not saying that we are the ones saving ourselves and that God has nothing to do with it. That is a low blow, because you put words in my mouth that I never said nor insinuated.

God most definitely initiated the Plan of Salvation...It is His Spirit that draws us to Himself...It is His grace that provides forgiveness...It is His blood that cleanses us from all sin.

BUT, please do not make the mistake of saying that God will save people that don't want to be saved. Don't say that there will be people in heaven that don't want to be there. God will not save anyone against their will...period.

Revelation 22:17 IS an invitation. You are working really hard at spinning that verse into whatever you want it to mean. Notice the word "let"? It means "allow"...it has nothing to do with making someone do something. When you allow someone to do something, they must first choose to do it...they are not being forced. And the word "will" is full of the clearest meaning that I don't understand why you insist on saying it means that God is the one choosing whether we accept the invitation or not. What you are saying does serious damage to the Gospel, because it makes God responsible for sin...because you say that God chooses who will be lost and who will be saved. If He chooses for someone to be lost, then He is PREVENTING them from receiving the Gospel...He is keeping them in sin.

Terrible heresy, my friend.

[Ken]

I don’t think anything was taken out of context. They are just a very small number of the volumes of scriptures that deal with this issue. It is easier for people to try and find loopholes in just one, or two scriptures (and claim they are taken out of context) so I was attempting to show the scriptures are consistent. I know the “I gods” post very few scriptures to back up their “I choose” position and seem to prefer others do the same.

I do believe in free will on certain things, but when if comes to salvation I will leave that to Jesus. When you say you have free will for your own salvation that is the same as saying you know what is best for yourself and will make the right choice based on what your human nature tells you is right. You give no credit for your salvation to the one that deserves all the credit when you think you are in control of your own salvation. You just accept Jesus in to your heart to save yourself? That is what I call “the I god doctrine.” It’s time to put aside your pride and wake up to the fact that Jesus and only Jesus saves. Praise God and give the credit The One that deserves it.

[zarxs]

Ken I know you are not going to like this so please understand I really thought and prayed on it before posting.

In reponse to Ken and Cyberemnant...

All it takes is one CLEAR scripture to invalidate the inproper interpretation of multiple less then clear scriptures taken out of context. Trying to force a round peg in square hole is fun if we are talking about wood but this is scripture.

While Blue has convinced me that Predistination is ONE POSSIBLE interpretation for some verses I have to agree that most of the passages being used to support it are taken out of context.

Cyberemnant has a good point, Bombarding people with verses taken out of context, hopeing the opposition won't put up a fight, isn't all that ethical either. What matters is the truth. Maybe we should do a verse my verse analysis as seperate posts giving people time to wiegh in on proper translational practices until we arrive at the truth whatever that is.

[Ken]

First let me thank you for your post. It shows people what normally happens when people can’t make a strong biblical stand for their personal beliefs. They claim everything is taken out of context and slip in a few personal attacks like comments about being unethical etc.

Your analogy of a round peg in a square hole has no bearing on the post, but it does sound cute and clever. As far as one “clear scripture” that can invalidate multiple scriptures, I read that as “if I don’t like all the scriptures you post, let me find one that seems to say what I want it to.”

What is ethical about saying everything you don’t agree with is taken out of context, but give no explanation? You did get one thing right in your post. Truth is all that matters! All of the scriptures I posted except for the last three deal with the issue of free will, or the lack of free will. Since you claim the scriptures are taken out of context, not clear etc. tell me what ones have nothing to do with free will, or are not clear to you?

Lets look at the scriptures and see how they are out of context.

Exodus 4:11
"And the LORD said unto him, Who hath made man's mouth? or who maketh the dumb, or deaf,
or the seeing, or the blind? have not I the LORD?"

Deals with the lack of free will for at least some? Is this not clear?

Exodus 4:21
"And the LORD said unto Moses, When thou goest to return into Egypt, see that thou do all
those wonders before Pharaoh, which I have put in thine hand: but I will harden his heart,
that he shall not let the people go."

Did Pharaoh have free will to believe? Not Clear?

Prov. 16:4
"The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil."

Did The LORD ask them in advance if they wanted to be made wicked? Not Clear?

Mark 4:9-12
"And he said unto them, He that hath ears to hear, let him hear. And when he was alone, they
that were about him with the twelve asked of him the parable. And he said unto them, Unto
you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without,
all these things are done in parables: That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and
hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and
their sins should be forgiven them."

Jesus did not want them to be converted. Not Clear?

John 6:39"And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I
should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day."

It says all that the Father has given Him. Not Clear?

John 10: 26-28
"But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you. My sheep hear my
voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they
shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand."

His sheep hear His voice and the ones that are not His sheep do not hear His voice. Not Clear?

2 Thess. 2:9-12
"Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying
wonders, and with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they
received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this cause God shall
send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned
who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness."

God will send them a strong delusion so they will believe a lie. Not clear?

Rom. 9 9-23
"For this is a word of promise: 'At this time I will come, and Sarah shall have a son.' And
not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac; ( For
the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of
God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth; ) It was said
unto her, The elder shall serve the younger. As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau
have I hated. What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid. For he
saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on
whom I will have compassion. So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth,
but of God that sheweth mercy. For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same
purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might
be declared throughout all the earth. Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy,
and whom he will he hardeneth. Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For
who hath resisted his will? Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall
the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? Hath not the potter
power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto
dishonour? What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured
with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: And that he might make
known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto
glory,"

God hated Esau before he was born and had done any good, or evil. Not Clear?

Rom. 11:8
"( According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they
should not see, and ears that they should not hear; ) unto this day."

Do they have a free will? Not Clear?

Isaiah 55:8-9
"For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD. For
as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my
thoughts than your thoughts."

Proverbs 3:5-7
"Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding. In all
thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths. Be not wise in thine own eyes:
fear the LORD, and depart from evil."

Lamentations 3:40
"Let us search and try our ways, and turn again to the LORD."

With the exception of the last three scriptures what ones are taken out of context and have nothing to do with free will?

[blueheron32]

Hi cyberremnant...

"BUT, please do not make the mistake of saying that God will save people that don't want to be saved. Don't say that there will be people in heaven that don't want to be there. God will not save anyone against their will...period."

Do you remember the young man Saul? When he was on the way to damascus was he seeking to become saved? Was he going to damascus to find someone to show him the way of salvation?? Was he willing with all his heart to find the way of salvation? No.. He was traveling to damascus, breathing out threatenings and murder, seeking to wipe from the face of the earth the very thought of the Church of Christ. And then ...WHAM!!!!!!!!!! Saul met Jesus, and became a new man. a saved man....:-) Because he was willing??? No...because God worked a work of grace in him....because he was one God had chosen....

You have it wrong cyber...God does not save anyone against their will. He takes a dirty stinking rotton corpse of a sinner like me, one who is in total rebellion against him, wanting nothing to do with him, hating him, blaspheming him, breaking every law in the book, diseased, blind, spiritually deaf and dumb, a corpse cyber..a spiritually dead corpse. He is dead, the bible is clear about that..dead in tresspasses and sins..in bondage to satan, a slave. He cannot come to God, he will not come to God, he only fights against God, because that is his nature.

But God cyber..but God, who is rich in mercy, in that while we were yet sinning, yet with out strength, yet without a will, died for us, and in the fullness of time came to this stinking corpse, and breathed into it the breath of life and it became a living soul. :-) Not because Saul willed it...not because Blueheron32 willed it...but because God willed it. That is what we read about in scripture in verses like these...

Psa 51:10 Create in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a right spirit within me.

Eze 36:24 For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land.
Eze 36:25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.
Eze 36:26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
Eze 36:27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.
Eze 36:28 And ye shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; and ye shall be my people, and I will be your God.
Eze 36:29 I will also save you from all your uncleannesses: and I will call for the corn, and will increase it, and lay no famine upon you.
Eze 36:30 And I will multiply the fruit of the tree, and the increase of the field, that ye shall receive no more reproach of famine among the heathen.
Eze 36:31 Then shall ye remember your own evil ways, and your doings that were not good, and shall lothe yourselves in your own sight for your iniquities and for your abominations.
Eze 36:32 Not for your sakes do I this, saith the Lord GOD, be it known unto you: be ashamed and confounded for your own ways, O house of Israel.

You must also deal with these scriptures cyber...

Rom 9:16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

Joh 1:13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

God denies you your doctrine of a will that can choose cyber....your doctrine of free will is nothing more than the pride of a stinking corpse, filthy stinking rags....God doesnt need your rags....he has new clothes for those he saves..robes of righteousness...the righteousness of the Lord Jesus Christ..

blueheron32.

[ChristWon]

Why would we need to ask Jesus to accept us if we're pre-destined?

[godslove]

why would we ask Jesus to accept us? we cannot stand before God on our own merit. the argument is if we accept Jesus and His complete work of attonement: is it because of our own doing or because he predestined us to belong to Him. there are many differant views on exactly how this works. it is very evident in the Bible that God blinds some, shows mercy on others. the qustion you have to ask yourself is what is the reason he does this. or just accept it as it is and that God knows what He is doing. i would have to say that i would trust his judgement over mine. so who has the right to choose. God who knows all ---or us sinners who all deserve hell? --
2Ti 1:9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

[Anginichi]

Why would we need to ask Jesus to accept us if we're pre-destined?

Good question!.. I would also add... Why did Jesus NEED to come down to earth and be crucified... if some are already predestined or chosen to be saved... ??? To accept the idea that man has no responsibility on their own whether to believe in God's plan of salvation or not... would mean that we could just close our eyes to a lot of scriptures that tell us that we must believe on the Lord Jesus Christ in order to be saved.

Oh, and also... why would we need to tell anyone about Jesus and His salvation, if God has already saved whom He wants to save? It would kind of make the whole story of Jesus pointless.

[SlayTheBeast]

I believe its a combination of the two. We are destined to be the people we are when we are born but we can do good if we choose to, within those confines. Why would Christ to teach us anything if we were already destined to do what we were going to do?

[OneJoe]

Good question!.. I would also add... Why did Jesus NEED to come down to earth and be crucified... if some are already predestined or chosen to be saved... ??? To accept the idea that man has no responsibility on their own whether to believe in God's plan of salvation or not... would mean that we could just close our eyes to a lot of scriptures that tell us that we must believe on the Lord Jesus Christ in order to be saved.

Oh, and also... why would we need to tell anyone about Jesus and His salvation, if God has already saved whom He wants to save? It would kind of make the whole story of Jesus pointless.
Hi Anginichi, what you have asked is a great question which I believe you already know the answer to..:-) You know Christ came to this earth to save sinners and he will lose none that the Father gives to him. Even though God, our Father, has chosen to save some of us according to the good pleasure of his will, he still needed a perfect sacrifise for their sins (meaning the elects). The principle works the same as you have been taught before. Christ came to this sinful world to save "whosoever" believes. However, the part many have trouble understanding is that man because of his spiritual condition can not choose to believe without the intervention on God's part. It requires an act of God to quicken us or to open our eyes to his truth and evident mercy. So as I said, even though some are predestined, God still needed a perfect lamb to offer for our sins. If God had not chosen some of helpless people to be saved and had not offered his son Jesus Christ, we would all surely burn.

Also, I understand your confusion about the scriptures. We are told to believe in order to be saved; however, the bible doesn't teach that we are capable of believing without God first interveneing. Ponder on the thought for a moment....remember the bible says so many times that we are spiritually dead, that natural man can not know the things of God because they are spiritually "discerned" so we must be reborn to know them....and to be reborn takes an act of God. Also, remember that God calls some and chooses fewer. It all ties into the truth of salvation and the fact that God is soley responsible for our being saved. Had he not done what he did, we would still be the natural man blind to the scriptures which tell us to believe.

Also, in regard to your last statement about the sending forth of the Gospel, the principle the bible speaks of applies here. Why do we spread the Gospel? It is because that is how God saves people. He works through his word in the lives of those he has chosen to save. Faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the word of God, right? Yes, it is by his word that he grants us faith to believe. Therefore, if God grants us faith to believe then only those who he grants faith can and will believe. So as we see, only some are granted faith to believe. Who are these people? Obviously they are his chosen people. Again, it all ties into the truth. We spread the word to every single individual we possibly can. We do this because we do not know who God plans to save. We know that not everyone we spread the Gospel to is going to believe. They will not believe because they are spiritually dead and can not know the things of God. They will not believe because God has not chosen to grant faith to that person and save them. Scripture teaches that God has chosen some from the foundation of the world. God's word does not say God has already saved them, but that he has chosen them to salvation. This means they will become saved when the time he has set forth arrives. He has chosen to save them in the beginning, but they still do not actually become saved until he begins the work of salvation in that person. So you see, that person can not choose to believe without God first interveneing in their life. That is why we pray God will open their eyes and show them the truth. Again, I completely understand the confusion you have in regards to this topic, but I pray you will think about what I have said and apply this thought when you are reading the bible and God willing you will this so clearly. When I believed free will, which was not even a year ago, I felt as if I knew only part of the truth which is why so many other scriptures didn't make since when I tried to fit them into the free will view. I knew salvation only in part and was like a man looking into a glass darkly. But now I know the truth of salvation in full, as also I am known...:-)


I pray our Father will grant you the understanding you desire to know. I pray he will help you see the truth so clearly as you look into the perfect law of liberty. Praise and Glory be to God our Father and Savior Jesus Christ. Amen


Onejoe

[SemperReformanda]

Why would we need to ask Jesus to accept us if we're pre-destined?

We wouldnt :)
No where in scripture does it teach us we need to ask Jesus to accept us. Not any single place.

It teaches us to trust that He already HAS done all that had to be done to save us.

[SemperReformanda]

Good question!.. I would also add... Why did Jesus NEED to come down to earth and be crucified... if some are already predestined or chosen to be saved... ???

Because God is just. Sin must be payed for. Regardless of whether we were predestined to salvation or not, the point of Christ coming to earth wasnt to pursuade us to believe. It was to pay for the sins of those who would be saved. The crucifiction of Christ is about the Justification of God. Had God forgiven the sins of the elect and just swept them under the proverbial rug, He would be unjust. But because he forgave sin, He then had to pay for that sin, that He might be both just, and able to justify the unjust.

Rom 3:24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
Rom 3:25 Whom God hath set forth [to be] a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
Rom 3:26 To declare, , at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.


Jesus is never said to have needed to come down to give us freewill. Never in scripture will you find a text that says that :). It says He came to Declare, show, demonstrate the rightousness of God. That God is still righteous! even though He forgave sin. That demonstration of God's righteousness is sin being punished, killed, overwhelemed in the wrath of God, in the person of Christ instead of ourselves. Thats why Christ had to come anginichi.


To accept the idea that man has no responsibility on their own whether to believe in God's plan of salvation or not... would mean that we could just close our eyes to a lot of scriptures that tell us that we must believe on the Lord Jesus Christ in order to be saved.

Like Joe already pointed out. Its not that man isnt responsible, its that man isnt capable. Just like man isnt capable of being righteous. But does that mean that we can close our eyes to the scriptures that tell us we must be righteous? Of course not. It means that we thank God for being righteous when we could not.
Applying the same reasoning to Faith, does that fact that we are incapable to believe mean we can close our eyes to the commands to beleive? Of course not. It means we thank God for granting us repenctance and faith when we could not muster them up on our own.


Oh, and also... why would we need to tell anyone about Jesus and His salvation, if God has already saved whom He wants to save? It would kind of make the whole story of Jesus pointless.

It all boils down to a man centered gospel vs a God centered gospel. If man is the center of the Gospel, then yes, you are right. It is pointless to tell anyone of Christ's work.
But if the point of the Gospel is to glorify God, and the Son then its not pointless at all to declare to the World all the things that Christ has done, and then trust God to save people through that message. If evangelism, is about declaring God's fame, and if the Gospel is the good news about CHRIST. Then we share with everyone because we want to proclaim throughout the World why God is so great, and what awesome things Christ has done and will do for all who believe. If God is the center of God's universe then there is a very good reason for tellign what He has done. If man is the center of God's universe then yes, its pointless.

Isa 43:6 I will say to the north, Give up; and to the south, Keep not back: bring my sons from far, and my daughters from the ends of the earth;
Isa 43:7 [Even] every one that is called by my name: for I have created him for my glory, I have formed him; yea, I have made him. [[I]everyone called by His name was made for His Glory..their purpose was to make him look good, his calling them wasnt to be about Them but about Him]
Isa 43:8 ¶ Bring forth the blind people that have eyes, and the deaf that have ears.
Isa 43:9 Let all the nations be gathered together, and let the people be assembled: who among them can declare this, and shew us former things? let them bring forth their witnesses, that they may be justified: or let them hear, and say, truth.
Isa 43:10 Ye [are] my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I [am] he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me. [the [I]purpose of his choosing his servants is so that they know HIM, that they believe HIM, and that they understand that there is no God before HIM, and no savior besides HIM]
Isa 43:11 I, [even] I, [am] the LORD; and beside me [there is] no saviour.
Isa 43:12 I have declared, and have saved, and I have shewed, when [there was] no strange [god] among you: therefore ye [are] my witnesses, saith the LORD, that I [am] God.
[He declared, saved, and shewed so that we would be witnesses that HE is God]
Isa 43:25 ¶ I, [even] I, [am] he that blotteth out thy transgressions for mine own sake, and will not remember thy sins.

Why does God blot out sins? For HIS sake


Isa 48:9 For my name's sake will I defer mine anger, and for my praise will I refrain for thee, that I cut thee not off.
Isa 48:10 Behold, I have refined thee, but not with silver; I have chosen thee in the furnace of affliction.
Isa 48:11 For mine own sake, [even] for mine own sake, will I do : for how should [my name] be polluted? and I will not give my glory unto another.
[I][God withholds His anger for HIS glory]

Eph 1:11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:
Eph 1:12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.

we have an inheritance and are predestined for the purpose of being an exaltation of HIS glory

Jhn 12:27 ¶ Now is my soul troubled; and what shall I say? Father, save me from this hour: but for this cause came I unto this hour.
Jhn 12:28 Father, glorify thy name. Then came there a voice from heaven, [saying], I have both glorified , and will glorify again

[I]What was Christ's purpose in coming to His hour of suffering? The Glory of the Father's name

Eze 36:22 ¶ Therefore say unto the house of Israel, Thus saith the Lord GOD; I do not [this] for your sakes, O house of Israel, but for mine holy name's sake, which ye have profaned among the heathen, whither ye went.
Eze 36:23 And I will sanctify my great name, which was profaned among the heathen, which ye have profaned in the midst of them; and the heathen shall know that I [am] the LORD, saith the Lord GOD, when I shall be sanctified in you before their eyes.
[I][Why does God save Isreal from the nations?]



This is why we tell people about Jesus. Not because we think we can save them, but because God's plan is...

Hab 2:14 For the earth shall be filled with the knowledge of the glory of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea

The Gospel is about Christ not man :)

[Anginichi]

One Joe,
I don't know why you insist on saying that I am confused about the scriptures. I can understand the scriptures that say that God draws us to Him and therefore, we are called to Him and it is He that gives us understanding... and I also understand that God has done everything in regards to our salvation... it is not up to anything that we can work out on our own. BUT the means to His salvation... His plan... is tied up in believing His Son!...
I believe both in God electing those whom He wills... or choosing those whom He wills to choose... and in the fact that those whom He chooses MUST also choose Him! It is a two way street. We have the ability to either accept God or reject Him. I do not see the Bible presenting the doctrine that we don't have the ability to choose. Take a close look at Romans 1:18-32... it speaks of how God has actually SHOWN it to all men what may be known of Him... unfortunately, man has turned away from God and desired to make God into an image made like corruptible man, therefore... God has given them up to uncleanness, etc. Basically, it is saying that because man turned away from God, God allowed them to go their own way. Later, in chapter 2, Paul says that God will grant eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor and immortality; but to those who are self-seeking and do not OBEY the truth, but obey unrighteousness--- indignation and wrath, tribulation and anguish, on every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek; but glory, honor, and peace to everyone who works what is good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. For there is NO partiality with God. (Romans 2:7-11) This would indicate to me that we can do what is good.. if we so choose to. And we can also choose to not do good. Of course... when Jesus is in our lives... it makes it a lot easier, than trying to do good on our own... "I can do all things through Christ Jesus who strengthens me!"
OneJoe, in your post, you said God saves people through the Gospel. And yet, you would also have people to believe that NO ONE can accept the gospel... especially in their unregenerate state of mind. (I'm sort of quoting you from another thread.) I have noticed, though... that in various places of scripture, God worked mightily in the lives of people who FIRST believed in Him!...They already had faith in Him. He further opened up their hearts to receive the gospel that was proclaimed to them... like the Ethiopian Eunuch that Philip had encountered (Acts 8:26-38) This passage tells us that the Eunuch was on the way to Jerusalem to WORSHIP there! Ok, so this man already had it in his heart to worship God, did he not? What he didn't yet know... was who Jesus Christ was... and Philip was there to explain that the Gospel was all about Jesus Christ. "And he answered and said, "I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God." (Acts 8:37)
Here is another example: The man named Cornelius in Caesarea... He is described as being a devout man and one who feared God with all his household, who gave alms generously to the people, and prayed to God always. (Sounds like an upstanding guy, one who definitely already had faith in God) An angel instructed Peter to go to him and speak to him. What did Peter speak of? Jesus Christ! Now the lesson that Peter, a Jew who until that time didn't think it was right to associate with non-Jews, learned was: "In truth I perceive that God shows no partiality. But in every nation WHOEVER fears Him and works righteousness is accepted by Him." (Acts 10:34-35) What caused the Holy Spirit to fall upon all of those whom Peter was speaking to? The fact that Peter spoke the good news of Jesus Christ to them and they believed the words that Peter spoke!
What is it that saves us??? When the prison keeper asked Paul and Silas what he must do to be saved, they responded, "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved, you and your household." (Acts 16:30-31)
Believe.... if it were not possible to believe in Jesus... why would we (and when I say "we" I mean the entire world!) be told that this is the way in which we are saved???

[OneJoe]

Hi Anginichi, first let me begin by saying I stated you appear confused about the scriptures because I don't believe you would be asking the questions you did and how they would fit into a predestinated view if you understood the opposing view. Therefore, I stated you appeared confused. I firmly believe if you fully understood the opposing view here you would not follow free will because you would see why an unsaved man is not capable of seeking after God. I am not trying to make you look ignorant of God's word or less knowledgable than myself. I am posting to you in a humble manner in hopes you will clearly see mans wicked condition and why we deceive ourselves and others if we say "all you have to do is choose to accept the truth". We spread the Gospel and leave the rest up to God...:-)

I believe both in God electing those whom He wills... or choosing those whom He wills to choose... and in the fact that those whom He chooses MUST also choose Him! It is a two way street. We have the ability to either accept God or reject Him. I do not see the Bible presenting the doctrine that we don't have the ability to choose. I would like to think you do believe God elects some because scripture says so. Also, man does choose who he will follow. Man does choose to seek after God. BUT, man does not and can not seek after God while he is dead in his sins. Man can only seek after God once the Father has quickened them and called them.

Take a close look at Romans 1:18-32... it speaks of how God has actually SHOWN it to all men what may be known of Him... unfortunately, man has turned away from God and desired to make God into an image made like corruptible man, therefore... God has given them up to uncleanness, etc

God has commanded his word be preached to all nations; therefore, man will be without excuse when he stands before God on judgement day. However, their spiritual nature is the cause for the hardness of their hearts and was passed down from the bosom of Adam to all generations that follow. (Rom 5:12) God is aware of mans condition and therefore chooses to save some. The rest are given up to uncleaness and vile passions. God suffers the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction so his Glory may be shown on the vessels of mercy. (Rom 9:22)

Later, in chapter 2, Paul says that God will grant eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor and immortality; but to those who are self-seeking and do not OBEY the truth, but obey unrighteousness--- indignation and wrath, tribulation and anguish, on every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek; but glory, honor, and peace to everyone who works what is good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. I agree with this statement. However, only a saved child of God will continue to seek after God's word and to do his will. :-)

For there is NO partiality with God. (Romans 2:7-11) This would indicate to me that we can do what is good.. if we so choose to. Now this is an interesting point which I would like to address. First, no there is no partiality with God. He has no respect of persons. However, this in no way supports the idea of the entire human race. If there were no partiality with God over the whole human race then there would be none chosen by God. However, it is true there is no respect of persons in regard to his saved children. A great example is God's commandment to us. He also tells us not to have partiality within brethren. Furthermore, I'm not sure what would make you think this indicates we can do good. If you mean as a saved person then I agree we can do good because it is Christ working in us. However, if you mean an unsaved person dead in his sins can do good then I ask you to look at: Rom 3:12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one. Also, looking back at Rom 1:31 says "Without understanding...." so we know who God is referring to here.

OneJoe, in your post, you said God saves people through the Gospel. And yet, you would also have people to believe that NO ONE can accept the gospel... especially in their unregenerate state of mind. (I'm sort of quoting you from another thread.) I have noticed, though... that in various places of scripture, God worked mightily in the lives of people who FIRST believed in Him!...They already had faith in Him. He further opened up their hearts to receive the gospel that was proclaimed to them... like the Ethiopian Eunuch that Philip had encountered (Acts 8:26-38) This passage tells us that the Eunuch was on the way to Jerusalem to WORSHIP there! Ok, so this man already had it in his heart to worship God, did he not? What he didn't yet know... was who Jesus Christ was... and Philip was there to explain that the Gospel was all about Jesus Christ. "And he answered and said, "I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God." (Acts 8:37)

Anginichi..:-) Yes God does save people by the hearing of the Gospel and when I say no one can accept it, I say this because it is what the bible teaches which is also why we have this topic. 1Co 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. ..As far as the Eunuch goes, scripture does not teach he chose to believe on his own without God first interveneing in his life, does it? A believer, someone who God has already granted faith to beleive, will freely serve God and worship him but scripture does not teach this is possible before God goes to work on them. Also, you might want to consider that many claimed to believe in God when Jesus Christ began preaching, and yet they rejected him. The Eunuch was on his way to worship just as many others did then. But it was by the hearing of the Gosepl and God granting him faith in Jesus Christ that he believed. God has saved people the same throughout time and that has always been by election and the hearing of God's word.

What caused the Holy Spirit to fall upon all of those whom Peter was speaking to? The fact that Peter spoke the good news of Jesus Christ to them and they believed the words that Peter spoke! God is the cause Anginichi. He sends his spirit down to us. The men believed because they heard the Gospel and were granted faith by God.

What is it that saves us??? When the prison keeper asked Paul and Silas what he must do to be saved, they responded, "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved, you and your household." (Acts 16:30-31)
Believe.... if it were not possible to believe in Jesus... why would we (and when I say "we" I mean the entire world!) be told that this is the way in which we are saved??? :-) No one ever said we can't believe. What I, as well as others have said, is that man can only believe after God quickens them. He must raise them from death to life and call them. God can call as many as he wants, but he knows that because they are spiritually dead they can not know him or seek after him unless he quickens them first.

Onejoe

[Mitch]

There is free will and God don't interfere with it. He gives us an option we can chose to do it or not, thats why we sin. we choose to disobey God. Predestination is about us in christ and not God demanding us to do something. He is a God of love.

[Theo]

Eph. 2:1-3 describes the condition of man before salvation. read and noticed that it describes man as dead, a slave to our own sinful nature. i like the way the NIV says it; "we were by nature objects of wrath." the question is how can a dead man be "reborn"? how can a man go against what's natural to him? he can't!! not of his own free will anyway. but with the power of God, he can!!!

jump down to verses 8-9: "For it is by grace you have been saved, though faith-and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God-not by works so that no one can boast."

even our faith must come from God. so how can a man say it is because of himself that he is saved, when his saving faith is from God? Jesus confirms this in John 3:3, 5-8.

now before people start callin me an extremeist (though i do take it as a compliment sometimes), understand that i do believe man has free will. but when it comes to the spiritual things, the things of God, not only do they not "see" them (John 3:3), but they reject it (Romans 1:18-23). and because of this God gave them over to a "depraved mind." read Romans chapters 1-2.

man is not strong enough to accept God without God changing him and giving him the strength first.

[Recycled]

2 Thess. 2:9-12
"Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying
wonders, and with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they
received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this cause God shall
send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned
who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness."
What a wonderful example of free will!! "...In them that perish, because they RECEIVED NOT (rejected) the love of the truth (salvation) that they might be saved." They forfeited their salvation by rejecting the love of the truth. "...That they all might be damned who believed not (rejected) the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness."

Good or bad, life or death, we make the choice. Our eternal destiny is sealed by the choices and decisions we make.

Granted, in His all-knowing, God may know aforetime what our decisions may be, but Justice prevails only when we are allowed to make those decisions freely.

Even though this may conflict with existing doctrines of election and predestination, it is only because we do not properly understand those doctrines.

R~

[OneJoe]

I've never seen anyone on this board, in all the time I've been here, willingly reject the rest of the bible to the extreme you have gone. You keep speaking of your Free Will and your choices. It is always "I" isn't it recycled. Several people here on this chat board on several different posts have given great scriptures in their original words and in the proper context as the rest of the bible supports. Despite all this correction, you would have none of it. You have blindly gone back to your original belief of Free Will and have yet to support this doctrine without being refuted by someone. You actually say that the doctrines of Grace are not fully understood, but perhaps you should step back and review what you said because you have certainly gotten ahead of yourself. If I remember correctly, you put up a post stating there is a place for predestination, election, etc....but then you turned around on another post and whole heartedly opposed it by stating that if God doesn't offer salvation to everyone rather than just a few then he isn't just in his plans. So tell me Recycled, how do we understand the doctrines of Grace properly? Do we listen to man and disregard the bible because it is mans view of "just" that really matters? Blindly trying to teach something we know is not true and disregard correction from God's word is bad enough, but to expect others to believe that non-sense is a prime case of the blind leading the blind. Man will never hinder God's plans by rejecting him or his truth. The only thing that will come of teaching someone they have more power than God to accept or refuse his will, deny the rest of the bible which clearly states God has chosen or elected some to salvation, and that he does in fact blind some of us and make us vessels of wrath fitted to destruction.....will be that person being decieved and misguided by people who claim to be of God. I have seen many people on this chat board who started off rejecting the truth only to later see they were wrong and that God is truely sovereign in all that he does and no man or his decisions, will hinder what God decides to do. God's decisions are not based upon what man would do, but according to his good pleasure. I will continue to pray for you Recycled, but from what I'm seeing right now you do not wish to be reproved. You refuse any and all correction for a belief you have not been able to support. I understand your Free Will means a great deal to you and the word of God threatens to show you are not as powerful as you thought. It shows that God is not waiting on you, you should be waiting on him.

Also, i'm wondering if serving the "I" God would be a form of idoltry...:-) I believe it would be.

[Recycled]

OneJoe, there is a great chasm of misunderstanding between us and for that I am deeply regretful.

We differ on our view of God, His nature and attributes, as well as our understanding of His plan of salvation.

As we remain firmly entrenched in what we believe and our differences appear to be irreconcilable, I can only apologize for being abrasive or disrespectful and go on with my life.

Respectfully,

Recycled

[Robert]

This question seems to have come up so many times on the Forum, with no clear cut winner (if winner be the right word) on either side of the discussion,….each returning to their respective corner only to come out for round two at some later stage when the question is raised again…. My position has not changed…
I am equally apposed to Arminianism as I am to Calvinism… and I wonder how long it will take us as Christians, to reject these divisionary doctrines and unite together in the true Word of God….Some people today are indifferent to true "salvation", because they have “let it slip.”… God's Word has become nothing more than man's ideas and doctrines,… their traditions…. ignoring the fact that the living God is a reality….. not a religion…
It is abundantly clear that God has and will continue to predestine history… and clearly there are many verses indicating “predestination” and “foreknowledge.”… The flip side is, there are as many verses that pertain to “free will”….To list and comment on both sides would take volumes…The controversy appears to begins when those at the extreme, claim that God uses one to the exclusion of the other…. I humbly suggest that both are wrong, since the Bible clearly indicates both are relevant to God's eternal purpose….
God bless…
Robert.

[SemperReformanda]

… The flip side is, there are as many verses that pertain to “free will”….

Robert.. In not one of the many discussions on this board has anyone ever brought up a single verse that teaches freewill. God help us if we ever reject Truth for a pretense of unity. We are to be united in Christ, but not at the cost of rejected the Character of God as He defines it in Scripture. I have many friends on this board that disagree on this topic, but thank God niether of us are willing to just pretend God's very nature and character isn't what is being discussed here.

Now if someone would produce just one verse that teaches that man is capable of choosing GOd, prior to God's enabling work then my stance would change.

Let me first qualify what I am saying.

I am not looking for more verses that teach that man is RESPONSIBLE to believe.
"Choose this day you you will serve"
"Believe on the Lord Jesus CHrist and you will be saved"
No one here argues that man is not required to believe or that man is not required to choose to do so. So posting that man is required to have faith does not even address the issue. The question at hand is: "is natural man CAPABLE of believing, and choosing God?" To which the scriptures give a resounding "no".

Also the many passages addressing that men HAVE believed unto salvation do not address the issue. Again we are ALL in agreement that every single one of us here who are saved, received that salvation by God's grace through Faith in the work of Christ.

So :) Yes we all agree man must choose to believe, and yes we all agree that men have believed unto salvation. But on the question at hand, "IS unregenerate man's will free?" or "Is unregenerate man CAPABLE of choosing to believe" not one text has been presented on teh side of "freewill" :)

Now the arguement for freewill seems to be that: "Well, if God requires something of us we must be able to perform it. "
But thank GOD that He has clearly contradicted that presupposition over and over in scripture.

A few examples.

Gideon, given the responsibility to rescue Isreal from an overwhelming army, is commanded to only take 500 men. Why? GOd says that it is so that they do not assume that they were capable of delivering themselves? God commanded them to deliver themselves, then insures that they realize they were incapable of doing what they were responsible to do. And then performes what He required of them to do, himself

Another example.. Isreal, Given the Law through Moses. Required to keep the LAW. But Romans 4,5, 7, etc teach explicitly that no one was capable of keeping all the Law. They were required to do something that they could not do! So what happens, God, takes on flesh, and fulfills the Law for them.

Mankind, Romans 1-3 teaches cleary, is required to be completely righteous before a Holy God. Again the scriptures teach that we are incapable of living righteously. So God imputes His righteousness to us when we believe.

Again, men are required to pay for their sins. Sin must be payed for demands a Just God. But man can pay for all eternity and never be capable of paying off his sin! An impossible task and it is required of us. So what does God do, again for his people? HE, God, Pays the price for us. He provides yet again that which He has required of us.


Now I would point out to you that not ONE time in Scripture does God ever set foreward the pressupposition that if He requires something of us then we must be capable of performing it. Praise GOD He doesnt for that would undermine the very Gospel we all hold so dearly to. You and I both.
If we were capable of all His requirements then there would be no need for Christ.

So if we reject this presupposition that "Responsability implies ability", and embrace the teaching found over and over again in scripture that WHATEVER God requires of His people, He provides for them.

Can anyone on this board come up with just ONE text, that says that unregenerate man is capable of choosing Christ, whithout God's supernatural enablement.

Let me stress again :) Not the many texts that we both agree teach man is required to believe unto salvation. Not the "whosoever will" texts because again we agree that anyonee who will come to Christ will be saved. BUt the question is CAN man will, not must he, not has he, but is he capable of doing so. :)

I look foreward to your response :)

Nathan

[DanV aka FreetoloveGod]

Robert.. In not one of the many discussions on this board has anyone ever brought up a single verse that teaches freewill. God help us if we ever reject Truth for a pretense of unity. We are to be united in Christ, but not at the cost of rejected the Character of God as He defines it in Scripture. I have many friends on this board that disagree on this topic, but thank God niether of us are willing to just pretend God's very nature and character isn't what is being discussed here.

Now if someone would produce just one verse that teaches that man is capable of choosing GOd, prior to God's enabling work then my stance would change.

Let me first qualify what I am saying.

I am not looking for more verses that teach that man is RESPONSIBLE to believe.
"Choose this day you you will serve"
"Believe on the Lord Jesus CHrist and you will be saved"
No one here argues that man is not required to believe or that man is not required to choose to do so. So posting that man is required to have faith does not even address the issue. The question at hand is: "is natural man CAPABLE of believing, and choosing God?" To which the scriptures give a resounding "no".

Also the many passages addressing that men HAVE believed unto salvation do not address the issue. Again we are ALL in agreement that every single one of us here who are saved, received that salvation by God's grace through Faith in the work of Christ.

So :) Yes we all agree man must choose to believe, and yes we all agree that men have believed unto salvation. But on the question at hand, "IS unregenerate man's will free?" or "Is unregenerate man CAPABLE of choosing to believe" not one text has been presented on teh side of "freewill" :)

Now the arguement for freewill seems to be that: "Well, if God requires something of us we must be able to perform it. "
But thank GOD that He has clearly contradicted that presupposition over and over in scripture.

A few examples.

Gideon, given the responsibility to rescue Isreal from an overwhelming army, is commanded to only take 500 men. Why? GOd says that it is so that they do not assume that they were capable of delivering themselves? God commanded them to deliver themselves, then insures that they realize they were incapable of doing what they were responsible to do. And then performes what He required of them to do, himself

Another example.. Isreal, Given the Law through Moses. Required to keep the LAW. But Romans 4,5, 7, etc teach explicitly that no one was capable of keeping all the Law. They were required to do something that they could not do! So what happens, God, takes on flesh, and fulfills the Law for them.

Mankind, Romans 1-3 teaches cleary, is required to be completely righteous before a Holy God. Again the scriptures teach that we are incapable of living righteously. So God imputes His righteousness to us when we believe.

Again, men are required to pay for their sins. Sin must be payed for demands a Just God. But man can pay for all eternity and never be capable of paying off his sin! An impossible task and it is required of us. So what does God do, again for his people? HE, God, Pays the price for us. He provides yet again that which He has required of us.


Now I would point out to you that not ONE time in Scripture does God ever set foreward the pressupposition that if He requires something of us then we must be capable of performing it. Praise GOD He doesnt for that would undermine the very Gospel we all hold so dearly to. You and I both.
If we were capable of all His requirements then there would be no need for Christ.

So if we reject this presupposition that "Responsability implies ability", and embrace the teaching found over and over again in scripture that WHATEVER God requires of His people, He provides for them.

Can anyone on this board come up with just ONE text, that says that unregenerate man is capable of choosing Christ, whithout God's supernatural enablement.

Let me stress again :) Not the many texts that we both agree teach man is required to believe unto salvation. Not the "whosoever will" texts because again we agree that anyonee who will come to Christ will be saved. BUt the question is CAN man will, not must he, not has he, but is he capable of doing so. :)

I look foreward to your response :)

Nathan

As Philippians 2:13 says, "for it is God who works in you both to will and to do His good pleasure." In other words, our new willpower gives us the authority and power of God to "go against the tide"- to choose to set ourselves aside and follow Him, regardless of how we feel, what we want or what we think. Thus, our free choice is really the critical crossroads of our lives.

The Greek word for this "free choice" decision is exousia which means "it is permitted." Exousia means we are permitted to choose something we don't feel. It means we have the authority or the word of the person in charge (which, of course, is God), and we also have His power and His ability to make that choice happen in our lives.

What this is saying is that we have the delegated authority and power of God to choose to "relinquish ourselves" and do what He wants (exousia), or, to choose to "hold on to ourselves" and do what we please (what we feel and want).

Jesus states in John 10:17-18, "Therefore My Father love Me, because I lay down My life, that I might take it again. No man takes it from Me, but I lay it down of Myself. I have power [exousia] to lay it down, and I have power [exousia] to take it again."

So God is the one who gives us the supernatural power to override our own negative thoughts and feelings , and to say, like Jesus, "Not as I will [my own emotional desires], but as You will." (Matthew 26:39) In other words, God enables us to "go against the tide."

I call these kind of choices faith choices, non-feeling choices or contrary choices. They are contrary choices because they are contrary to how we naturally feel, what we think and what we want, but nevertheless, they are valid because God has given us the authority and the power to make them. 1 Corinthians 7:37 validates that we have "...power [authority] over [our] own will...."

Therefore, we can be honest with the Lord and say: "I really don't like this person. I don't want to forgive him. I don't want to love him. He's not my friend!" But, "Nevertheless, not my will, but Your will."

In other words, "I choose to do what You want me to, regardless of how I feel, what I think or what I want." I also am confident that You will change my feelings to align with that choice in Your timing and perform Your will in my life.

One important thing to keep in mind: the deeper the wound (i.e., the longer that arrow - that hurt - has been in us), the longer it seems to take for our feelings to align with our choices.

What's so incredible about making these kinds of contrary choices is that God does, in His timing and in His Way, not only change our negative thoughts and emotions to align with what [I]we have chosen, but He also restores our joy. In other words, if we are willing to make the right choices, He will give us the Love, the wisdom and the power we need to go on as if nothing has ever happened.

God Bless.

[CanadianChristian]

I think there may be some confusion around just how people view the term free will. I look at free will as the opportunity to make a choice in a given situation. I'm assuming that most people probably see it that way too.

Now, are there events that happen in our lives that are beyond our control? Sure. I might try to cross the street only to be hit by a car. I didn't choose to be hit by the car, but it happened anyway. That's destiny. That's God's will. There are countless examples that prove that destiny makes up a big part of our everyday lives. But having destiny in our lives does not negate our free will.

How I choose to behave between events is my choice. After being hit by the car, I can choose to try to walk again, I can choose to give up, I can choose to dedicate my time to any number of things. That's entirely my choice. I can ask God for help. And if I ask, scripture says that He will send the Holy Spirit upon me. But from where I'm standing, I'm the one who cries out to the Lord and so, I choose whether I want to ask for help or not.

Where things get complicated is when we choose to do something, but by the destiny of God's will, which is stonger than our own, we end up somewhere else. I can choose to go to the other side of the street, and while crossing, I can be hit by a car. So even though I have the free will to choose where I want to go, God uses destiny to determine where I will end up. He does this because He knows better than we do what we need to experience in life to stenghten our faith, or knowledge, or whatever He sees fit. Now sometimes, what I choose is exactly what God wills so I will end up where I chose to be -- but not because I chose, but because God willed it to be so.

This is why we hear people say "...God willing...". When people say this, they are hoping that God sees the situation as they do and hoping therefore that God will not alter the path that they themselves have chosen. But this is a futile thought because God will alter the course if He sees greater purpose, for believers and unbelievers, for someone to go another way.

Now call me stupid, but I don't beleive that God willed us to know logic only to find that when we try apply it, it doesn't work. Does it seem logical that a person with no control over their own lives, that is to say, with no free will, can be responsible for believing in the Lord Jesus Christ? How can someone be responsible for something that they have no control over? That makes no sense. Would you hold the janitor accountable for the Enron scandal? Somehow I'm lead to believe that God wouldn't either. But indeed, the Bible has many scriptures that show that we are responsible to believe in the Lord Jesus Christ and that he died so that we may live. So if that's true, the Bible may not explicitly say that we have free will, but says it indirectly.

We have responsibility over how we choose to behave and think but what actually happens to us happens by the destiny of God's will. Our free will is basically a test. How will little Billy or Mary behave or think if they are in such and such a circumstance? The question is not "what will they do"? That part id up to God. The question is "what will they choose to do"? And how they choose to behave and think is all recorded for that final day of judgement.

[m.o.m.]

Beautiful post, Dan. You make good points; however, you said:

As Philippians 2:13 says, "for it is God who works in you both to will and to do His good pleasure." In other words, our new willpower gives us the authority and power of God to "go against the tide"- to choose to set ourselves aside and follow Him, regardless of how we feel, what we want or what we think. Thus, our free choice is really the critical crossroads of our lives.

It seems to me that in your efforts to prove free will, you still have stated that it is God who sets it all in motion. This is the point of those who believe in Sovereign Grace. God truly is in control...the author and finisher of our faith.

God bless!

m.o.m.

[SemperReformanda]

you've nailed it mom :) IT is GOD who works in us both to WILL and to DO His good pleasure. Sounds like our will is determined by God, pretty clearly from that verse dan :)

[Recycled]

the question is CAN man will, not must he, not has he, but is he capable of doing so.
Keeping in mind the tenets of Calvinism applicable to this question, i.e. total depravity, irresistable grace, election and predestination-- the answer would be a clear no.

However, someone with a differing view, who allows for natural man's having been endowed with intellect and the ability to choose, the free will of the human spiirit, and a different concept of election and predestination would come to a totally different conclusion.

And so it goes, differing views, definitions and understanding.

First and foremost, Scripture admonishes us to "love one another, for by this will all men know that we are His disciples".

Respectfully,

Recycled

[CanadianChristian]

Very true. It's all in how one views free will.

[DanV aka FreetoloveGod]

Beautiful post, Dan. You make good points; however, you said:

As Philippians 2:13 says, "for it is God who works in you both to will and to do His good pleasure." In other words, our new willpower gives us the authority and power of God to "go against the tide"- to choose to set ourselves aside and follow Him, regardless of how we feel, what we want or what we think. Thus, our free choice is really the critical crossroads of our lives.

It seems to me that in your efforts to prove free will, you still have stated that it is God who sets it all in motion. This is the point of those who believe in Sovereign Grace. God truly is in control...the author and finisher of our faith.

God bless!

m.o.m.

Read that passage again M.O.M. Where it says "our new willpower" [new creation in Christ] still gives us Free-Will and Free-Choice, only this time we "choose to set ourselves aside and follow Him, regardless of how we feel, what we want or what we think. Thus, our free choice is really the critical crossroads of our lives."

God Bless.

[Recycled]

Canadian Christian, free will is only one thread in a tapestry of many colors. If you look at God's word as a tapestry and only see one thread, or one color, you're missing the beauty and meaning of the whole.

What we have is several groups looking at the same tapestry with each seeing a different picture.

It's like three blind men taken to "see" an elephant for the first time-- the first felt the elephant's ear, the second felt the elephant's trunk, the third felt the elephant's leg-- all three had "seen" the elephant, but all three had different "views" of the elephant.

Until we are all looking at the same thing with the same understanding, there will continue to be disagreements and misunderstandings.

Kindest regards,

Recycled

[SemperReformanda]

Recycled, Lets set aside the tenets of Calvinism, and the views allowing abilities to choose and look exclusively at scripture. Is there any Scripture that teaches man is capable of doing so. We're not intrested in what conclusions our preconcieved theologies can lead us to. Lets set aside both of our pressupposition here and look for what the text actually says.

THats what's important. What does the Bible have to say about the view that man is capable of choosing Godward things? (now it has been conceeded i believe by members of the freewill argument that there are scriptures that teach God predestines unto salvation, "but", they claim, "there are also scriptures that TEACH man is capable of freely choosing rightly). Where are these scriptures? And if God doesnt teach this in His word then where does this differing view come from?

First and foremost, Scripture admonishes us to "love one another, for by this will all men know that we are His disciples".

The most loving thing we can do for eachother is to point eachother to the Scriptures to find more and more about who this great God who formed us and saved us actually is :)

In both Love, and the desire that we all come to unity in the same Truth,
Nathan

[SemperReformanda]

Then lets define how we view freewill so that we are all on the same page. We know where the other person is coming from and can address the issues we disagree on more knowledgably?

I'll try to start us off.
By freewill I mean: "the freedom of man to will what he should."
I think this may be part of our problem as well as I have found alot of people think that the Calvinist believes that there are all these people desiring to choose Christ but they will be rejected because they were not chosen. That is not the view we believe is taught in scriptures. There will be no one who end up rejecting Christ who wanted instead to recieve Him.

We believe that man is free to choose whatever he desires (wills). But that he only desires (wills) the things that are apposed to God, until God works in him to will and to do His good pleasure. :) So free choice is not denied in scripture, but man will choose what he desires, and that desire (or will) is enslaved to sin and death.
His will is describe as being at emnity with the things of God. As hating Godward things. As delighting in the lust of the flesh and all things apposing to God. As never seeking God, nor ever desiring good. So if a man is in the spiritually dead condition where he hates the things of God, he is given a free choice, but will choose what he desires (which is anti Godward). Now when God quickens this man, and enables him to desire that which is good, he is given the same free choice, but again, choose the thing that he desires, which is God, Christ, and righteousness. So unregenerate man has no free will, they are incapable of willing what they should, and so they freely choose rebellion.

I beleive it was John Owen that spelled it out so accurately: "Man is free to choose what he wills, but not to will what He ought". Because our will is so clearly taught to be enslaved. NOT free.

So whosoever will may come, but no one wills unless God, changes their desires to Godly ones.

Thats what we, or at least what I, mean by "freewill" and the lack thereof :)

[SemperReformanda]

Now call me stupid, but I don't beleive that God willed us to know logic only to find that when we try apply it, it doesn't work. Does it seem logical that a person with no control over their own lives, that is to say, with no free will, can be responsible for believing in the Lord Jesus Christ? How can someone be responsible for something that they have no control over? That makes no sense. Would you hold the janitor accountable for the Enron scandal? Somehow I'm lead to believe that God wouldn't either. But indeed, the Bible has many scriptures that show that we are responsible to believe in the Lord Jesus Christ and that he died so that we may live. So if that's true, the Bible may not explicitly say that we have free will, but says it indirectly.

Thats not logic...logic doesnt apply faulty presuppositions into a syllogism, and accept the results. In order for a syllogism to be logical, the pressuppositions (or premises) have to first be shown to be true. We cannot look at the many passages in Scripture where God demands what we cannot perform (like Gideon, Joshua, David, the Law, righteousness, atonement ..etc etc..) and then say, well its only logical that God wont give us something we cannot do. THerefore, premise A (God requires) and premise B (God only requires what we are capable) = Conclusion (We are capable). THats illogical :)

[CanadianChristian]

So if I understand what you're saying, an unsaved person is not of free will because everything that they do is in contradiction to God? And since everything they do is in conradiction to God, they cannot come to believe in Christ unless God ordains him with a change in desire to want to know God?

So then I have no free will to choose God unless God gives me free will to do so? That makes free will a pointless term.

I'm sorry, but I'm back at square one. Either man is able to choose God, or man is a puppet. If we are puppets, then why would God even waste His time making us believe that we have choice. Why not just save who He wants to save and throw the rest in the fire?

First, there is no reason to think that an unsaved man will always act in a manner that is opposed to God. The world is riddled with examples of unsaved people who are glorified for their works of goodwill and who do things that are considered good in scripture. The world is full of the unsaved that do not fornicate or murder or rape or steal or lay false witness or dispise their neighbor or mother or father or whatever.

Before Moses knew God back in Egypt, he did many a work that was aligned with the spirit of God. His life was not contrary to God while it was neither aligned. It is true however, that we are unclean in the sight of God because of sin. But just one sin makes us unclean to God. We don't have to sin constantly to be forever unclean. Christ died to cleanse us of our propensity to sin. For some of us, His grace cleaned us from years of sin, for others, just a tiny one. Both are filthy to God without Christ -- that's the grace; that cleanliness is available to everyone; all you have to do is recieve it, hence choice. Real, physical choice. Not some metaphysical gobbledeegook.

[CanadianChristian]

Thats not logic...logic doesnt apply faulty presuppositions into a syllogism, and accept the results. In order for a syllogism to be logical, the pressuppositions (or premises) have to first be shown to be true. We cannot look at the many passages in Scripture where God demands what we cannot perform (like Gideon, Joshua, David, the Law, righteousness, atonement ..etc etc..) and then say, well its only logical that God wont give us something we cannot do. THerefore, premise A (God requires) and premise B (God only requires what we are capable) = Conclusion (We are capable). THats illogical :)

I said nothing about capability. I said intention. What happens is up to God. I contend that even though the outcome of events are out of our control, we have the free will to choose what we want to happen -- not what will. So I have not made any logical contradiction.

But fair enough. So please explain to me how it is logical, as you define logic, for a person with no control over their actions, thoughts, or beliefs that would bring them to God; how can this person hold any ounce of responsibility should they deny God?

Responsibility is equated with control. If one has no control over themself unless God walks into the picture and shows them, how can that person be held to any accountability whatsoever?

That's my logic. If you can explain otherwise, well, good luck.

[godslove]

i'm not a calvinist, i'm a Bible believer. i go to baptist type churches. but when calvin or calvinist say something that is right i have to agree.
only God can save.

Joh 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

i think this is pretty clear. if the Father doesn't draw you then good luck with your free will.

Joh 6:70 Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil?
Joh 13:18 I speak not of you all: I know whom I have chosen: but that the scripture may be fulfilled, He that eateth bread with me hath lifted up his heel against me.
Joh 15:16 Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.
Joh 15:19 If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.
Ac 1:2 Until the day in which he was taken up, after that he through the Holy Ghost had given commandments unto the apostles whom he had chosen:
1Co 1:27 But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;
1Co 1:28 And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are:
Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
2Th 2:13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:
2Ti 2:4 No man that warreth entangleth himself with the affairs of this life; that he may please him who hath chosen him to be a soldier.
Jas 2:5 Hearken, my beloved brethren, Hath not God chosen the poor of this world rich in faith, and heirs of the kingdom which he hath promised to them that love him?
1Pe 2:9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:
Re 17:14 These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful.

so who choses who?

Ro 3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

we certainly don't Choose God.

the onyl question remains is why does He choose some and not choose others?

Ro 9:20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

He says it's none of your business......God bless.

[pop james]

Amen

[SemperReformanda]

First, there is no reason to think that an unsaved man will always act in a manner that is opposed to God. The world is riddled with examples of unsaved people who are glorified for their works of goodwill and who do things that are considered good in scripture. The world is full of the unsaved that do not fornicate or murder or rape or steal or lay false witness or dispise their neighbor or mother or father or whatever.

hmm.. Maybe this is why we cannot agree on the predestination issue. Our foundational understanding of God, Man, and the reason for creation and existence seem to differ.

I would say that the reason man was created was to enjoy God and glorify him forever. If we disagree here let me know and we can start a different thread dealing with this issue. We were "created for MY glory" says God.

If thats the case than every thing we do to belittle God or exalt ourselves or anything else above God, or find more pleasure and value in than we do in God, is at its very root completely apposed to God and his Self declared reason for creation.

if we are agreed on this. That God is the center of our universe instead of man, and that Idolatry is an act of rebellion against God, THEN we can begin to see how every act man does prior t